PDA

View Full Version : Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame



Trophy
12-05-2012, 09:20 PM
Over .500 and we're really beginning to get it going!

:gopacers:

http://i45.tinypic.com/10r5um1.png
(Courtesy of NBA.com)

repole
12-05-2012, 09:21 PM
hooorayyy

Pace Maker
12-05-2012, 09:22 PM
I only caught the first half but it looked like another solid game for PG24, and more importantly we're back above .500!

Mr_Smith
12-05-2012, 09:22 PM
Over .500 yay!

Hicks
12-05-2012, 09:23 PM
Is this the first time Paul George has had two games in a row at this level?

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 09:24 PM
Trophy all you have to do is tell me that you want to be responsible to open the postgame threads, is not that I love opening them anyway, I got the job because nobody cared to open them.

HickeyS2000
12-05-2012, 09:24 PM
:panic: :panic: :panic:

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 09:26 PM
We shot at 45%.That's a big improvement from the abysmal previous ones.Very happy with the win and with Paul again.Roy on D was dominant again.

Trophy
12-05-2012, 09:28 PM
Trophy all you have to do is tell me that you want to be responsible to open the postgame threads, is not that I love opening them anyway, I got the job because nobody cared to open them.

I can open them if you want me to. It doesn't matter much too me.

BlueCollarColts
12-05-2012, 09:28 PM
Paul George needs to keep this up, 34 last night and 22 tonight, needs to continue to attack the basket. Most important thing to me is he can create his own shot consistently!!

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 09:29 PM
I can open them if you want me to.

Go ahead, make sure you open them in bad days too that is the reason why I got it.

LoneGranger33
12-05-2012, 09:30 PM
I can open them if you want me to. It doesn't matter much too me.

If there's going to be an official passing of the torch on the post-game threads, may I suggest/request the addition of a box score to the original post? I don't know how to embed them, otherwise I'd do it myself. If it's too much to ask, no problem.

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 09:30 PM
Paul George needs to keep this up, 34 last night and 22 tonight, needs to continue to attack the basket. Most important thing to me is he can create his own shot consistently!!

Plus you can see he's oozing with confidence right now.Here's hoping he will remain like that.

Trophy
12-05-2012, 09:33 PM
If there's going to be an official passing of the torch on the post-game threads, may I suggest/request the addition of a box score to the original post? I don't know how to embed them, otherwise I'd do it myself. If it's too much to ask, no problem.

I can do that.

LoneGranger33
12-05-2012, 09:34 PM
How does Roy stack up in the Defensive Player of the Year race? No shot or simply long-shot?

Eleazar
12-05-2012, 09:35 PM
How does Roy stack up in the Defensive Player of the Year race? No shot or simply long-shot?

If people are smart he should be near the top of the list.

LoneGranger33
12-05-2012, 09:36 PM
I can do that.

Thank you. Also, thanks go out to vnzla for his post-game services. It can be a thankless job, but it's nonetheless important.

TheDon
12-05-2012, 09:37 PM
please dear lord sweet baby ***** let this be a sign that Paul George is finally putting it all together.

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 09:39 PM
please dear lord sweet baby ***** let this be a sign that Paul George is finally putting it all together.

LOL is J e s u s censored?HAHAHAHAHA

Something is changing on that offense and was about time.Plus as each game passes we find our rhythm.

Ace E.Anderson
12-05-2012, 09:41 PM
please dear lord sweet baby ***** let this be a sign that Paul George is finally putting it all together.

Don't get too high over the 2good performances in a row, it'll make you that more disappointed the next time he has a bad game. Just try to enjoy his contributions how he gives them--it's the best way to look at a young Inconsistent player like Paul.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 09:42 PM
please dear lord sweet baby ***** let this be a sign that Paul George is finally putting it all together.

I hope he is putting it together but at the same time a part of me is hoping that he doesn't become an star(or close) before his extension is signed, just look at what the all star thing did to the Pacers with Roy.

MiaDragon
12-05-2012, 09:43 PM
18-19 FTM, yes please more of this.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 09:45 PM
Thank you. Also, thanks go out to vnzla for his post-game services. It can be a thankless job, but it's nonetheless important.

It's a pain in the a** job, especially when the team is sucking and you have no reasons to open a thread, thanks though.

Trophy
12-05-2012, 09:45 PM
please dear lord sweet baby ***** let this be a sign that Paul George is finally putting it all together.

He's really looked like the guy we've been wanting him to be on the offense end these past few games. His ball handling is better, his ability to create, make smart passes, and make his 3 point shots.

Of course he's always hungry to get even better and he can always improve, but this is definitely an auspicious sign for us and PG24 moving forward.

TMJ31
12-05-2012, 09:47 PM
How does Roy stack up in the Defensive Player of the Year race? No shot or simply long-shot?


I think Roy is a top contender, without question.

Trophy
12-05-2012, 09:50 PM
I hope he is putting it together but at the same time a part of me is hoping that he doesn't become an star(or close) before his extension is signed, just look at what the all star thing did to the Pacers with Roy.

I think Roy will get it going offensively sooner or later and while he probably wasn't worth the full max contract (at this point), we needed to keep him.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 09:51 PM
@ChrisBHaynes: Nicolas Batum says he injured his lower back going for a rebound in the 1st Q. He landed on his heel wrong and it shot up to his back.

aamcguy
12-05-2012, 09:51 PM
I think Roy is a top contender, without question.

If we keep up our ridiculously good defensive pace and Hibbert maintains around 9-10 rebounds and 3 blocks he should at least get some 1st place votes.

DEEman
12-05-2012, 09:56 PM
I love Croshere. He has so much to say after plays being finished.

LetsTalkPacers84
12-05-2012, 09:56 PM
:happydanc

Eddie Gill
12-05-2012, 10:00 PM
The biggest thing I've noticed about Paul George this season has been his confidence. Regardless of whether he IS a markedly better ball-handler this year, he FEELS like he is, and I think a lot of his increased aggressiveness is the product that belief. More broadly, this entire team is really starting to play with a lot of confidence - something which obviously bodes well.

Here is our schedule for the rest of the month:
Denver
@OKC
CLE (below .500)
PHI
@DET (below .500)
@MIL (below .500)
UTA
@CLE (below .500)
@NOH (below .500)
CHI (below .500)
PHO (below .500)
@ATL
MEM


A lot of very winnable games in this upcoming stretch. 7 games with teams under .500. Of the 6 games versus teams above .500, only 2 are on the road. For a team rapidly gaining confidence, this is a crucial stretch in our season. If we can rattle off 9 or 10 wins I'd be thrilled.

HickeyS2000
12-05-2012, 10:23 PM
Something is changing on that offense and was about time.Plus as each game passes we find our rhythm.

What changed was Portlands D. They don't play much.

xIndyFan
12-05-2012, 10:32 PM
props to Gerald Green. Real nice game by him. Good defensive rotations and focus. Caused one 24-second violation all by himself. :thumbup:

Sandman21
12-05-2012, 10:38 PM
Sir Allen Connor is the BEST NBA referee name. EVER.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 10:45 PM
Paul George is playing good at a position many thought he wasn't able to play at, by the way his value has never been this high.

CableKC
12-05-2012, 10:53 PM
I hope he is putting it together but at the same time a part of me is hoping that he doesn't become an star(or close) before his extension is signed, just look at what the all star thing did to the Pacers with Roy.
I am very sure that some Team is going to offer PG a comprable contract to what Batum got....regardless of whether he becomes a "star" or not.... $11 to 12 mil a year for 4 years ( at the very least ).

billbradley
12-05-2012, 10:54 PM
Has anyone notice how much better we pass? It's so simple, but the pumpkin is actually hittin numbers half the time.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 11:00 PM
I am very sure that some Team is going to offer PG a comprable contract to what Batum got....regardless of whether he becomes a "star" or not.... $11 to 12 mil a year for 4 years ( at the very least ).

I'm thinking the same thing, hopefully it doesn't become a Harden situation were they have to trade him because they can't pay him.

Can anybody explain how that works? Hibbert 14mil, Hill 8mil, West 12mil?, Ian 4mil, Green 3 mil and Danny 14, can the Pacers pay Paul George anything close to what Batum is making?

A total of 57mil for all those players mentioned without Paul George.

CableKC
12-05-2012, 11:02 PM
Usually, when I see Lance play.....he waits along the perimeter for the ball....if he gets it...he will either shoot the 3pt shot ( if he's open ) or scan the perimeter to pass it along to someone else.

However.....when Lance actually drives to the hoop...he is able to create for others.

There were 2 plays with Lance where he drove to the hoop...drew the attention of the defense...and he kicked the ball out at the last second to GH ( in one play ) and to Hibbert ( in another ). Both plays......GH and Hibbert weren't able to hit the shot....IMHO because they weren't ready for the shot.

I will do the same thing that is always said in the Post-Game Thread......Free Lance.....he's good at driving to and attacking the basket while creating shots for others. They just need to be ready for the ball...cuz there is a good chance of Lance passing it to you.

CableKC
12-05-2012, 11:07 PM
I'm thinking the same thing, hopefully it doesn't become a Harden situation were they have to trade him because they can't pay him.

Can anybody explain how that works? Hibbert 14mil, Hill 8mil, West 12mil?, Ian 4mil, Green 3 mil and Danny 14, can the Pacers pay Paul George anything close to what Batum is making?
It's based on the willingness of the Simon's to pay for a Team. Besides...he's a RFA.

But I think that the only way that we keep a Starting lineup of GH/PG/Granger/Hibbert/West next season is if that lineup gives us a very deep 2nd round Playoff run or even an ECF appearance.

bunt
12-05-2012, 11:09 PM
I hope he is putting it together but at the same time a part of me is hoping that he doesn't become an star(or close) before his extension is signed, just look at what the all star thing did to the Pacers with Roy.

Wait, so one day you say the Pacers are basically going nowhere because they don't have a star player in a star driven league. Now today, part of you hopes Paul doesn't become a star, at least not too soon, because that means the Pacers will have to pay him more?

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 11:10 PM
It's based on the willingness of the Simon's to pay for a Team. Besides...he's a RFA.

But I think that the only way that we keep a Starting lineup of GH/PG/Granger/Hibbert/West next season is if that lineup gives us a very deep 2nd round Playoff run or even an ECF appearance.

When Paul should get the extension next year? or the year after?

aamcguy
12-05-2012, 11:11 PM
I'm thinking the same thing, hopefully it doesn't become a Harden situation were they have to trade him because they can't pay him.

I think the reason we resigned all our contracts this season to flat-rate contracts is so we have the cap flexibility to resign West, George, and Granger as their contracts are up.

CableKC
12-05-2012, 11:12 PM
When Paul should get the extension next year? or the year after?
I will let count55 answer this.....but given what we have seen with SJax asking for an extension way before the last year of his contract ( when he was with the Warriors ), my guess is that he can sign an extension any time between now and next year :shrug:

Sookie
12-05-2012, 11:14 PM
I think Roy will get it going offensively sooner or later and while he probably wasn't worth the full max contract (at this point), we needed to keep him.

He'll probably get it going when Danny comes back and teams stop focusing on him so much.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 11:14 PM
Wait, so one day you say the Pacers are basically going nowhere because they don't have a star player in a star driven league. Now today, part of you hopes Paul doesn't become a star, at least not too soon, because that means the Pacers will have to pay him more?

By star I mean all star(like Hibbert) no superstar, Hibbert got a max because he was an all star last year that was his leverage, I think PG can become an star but not a superstar big difference.

Anyway the Pacers don't have the money to pay Paul George, pay him as an all star and keep everybody else.

aamcguy
12-05-2012, 11:17 PM
By star I mean all star(like Hibbert) no superstar, Hibbert got a max because he was an all star last year that was his leverage, I think PG can become an star but not a superstar big difference.

Anyway the Pacers don't have the money to pay Paul George, pay him as an all star and keep everybody else.

As long as Simon is willing to go up to the luxury tax (around 70 million) they definitely can. And all indications from the offseason seem to be that he is willing to do that.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 11:20 PM
As long as Simon is willing to go up to the luxury tax (around 70 million) they definitely can. And all indications from the offseason seem to be that he is willing to do that.

Let's see.

VideoVandal
12-05-2012, 11:22 PM
Just want to give huge props to Paul George. Really proud of the way he has played of the last 2 games and the most exciting part about it is he seems to be figuring "IT" out. A lot of people were hoping his 9 3 point shot game was possibly his coming out party game, and while that was fun to watch I was a little less enthused about the idea that that game was the type of performance that could get PG to the next level as a player. Simply because the way he scored all his points that game were from unconscious 3 point shooting (9 of 13) which is basically unrepeatable when you consider how great Reggie was from down town and his career high was 8 it is probably a fairly safe assumption that PG will never hit 9 again in his career. However, these last 2 games have shown a side of PGs game that can be repeated on a more consistent basis, he showed some post up game, he has shown his mid-range game last couple games (which before these 2 games was woefully missing), and he has shown a lot more aggression driving to the basket. I really hope he keeps feeding off these 2 great performances and starts showing the consistency all us Pacers fans have been yearning to see for a while now.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
12-05-2012, 11:25 PM
Has anyone notice how much better we pass? It's so simple, but the pumpkin is actually hittin numbers half the time.Its funny you don't really pay attention to it unless its as terrible as it was in the beginning of the season. But we have definitely improved. David West is an amazing passer right now, PG is definitely better, and both Hill and Lance had some great passes today.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
12-05-2012, 11:27 PM
I guess I was wrong about PG24 laying a dud tonight. Oh well I'm happy I was. Hopefully he keeps it going.

Also no Lance again late in the game.

xIndyFan
12-05-2012, 11:53 PM
I guess I was wrong about PG24 laying a dud tonight. Oh well I'm happy I was. Hopefully he keeps it going.

Also no Lance again late in the game.

Lance got hurt early in the game. He played some, but it looked like things were tight-ing up late. He was standing at the end of the pacer bench like Jeff Foster used to when he played. Leg, back something. I couldn't tell.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 12:01 AM
Lance got hurt early in the game. He played some, but it looked like things were tight-ing up late. He was standing at the end of the pacer bench like Jeff Foster used to when he played. Leg, back something. I couldn't tell.

I didn't notice that, though in this game I didn't think he was more effective than Young or Green. I think Green actually played the best tonight and the other 2 were kind of middling.

Sandman21
12-06-2012, 12:03 AM
Lance got hurt early in the game. He played some, but it looked like things were tight-ing up late. He was standing at the end of the pacer bench like Jeff Foster used to when he played. Leg, back something. I couldn't tell.

I thought I saw a slight limp from him during the last time out.

xIndyFan
12-06-2012, 12:08 AM
I didn't notice that, though in this game I didn't think he was more effective than Young or Green. I think Green actually played the best tonight and the other 2 were kind of middling.

I really liked what I saw from Gerald Green tonight. He was focused on defense. He made good rotations. He really helped out in the paint. And had about 5 or 10 seconds of awesome individual defense to force a 24-second violation. Plus he really used his size on offense instead of just standing at the 3 point line.

Jon Theodore
12-06-2012, 12:41 AM
I really liked what I saw from Gerald Green tonight. He was focused on defense. He made good rotations. He really helped out in the paint. And had about 5 or 10 seconds of awesome individual defense to force a 24-second violation. Plus he really used his size on offense instead of just standing at the 3 point line.

Greens defense was something to talk about. He was fantastic. I'd love to see him play that kind of game against Miami in the playoffs. He was making everything difficult and really contesting shots.

gummy
12-06-2012, 12:43 AM
One of the things I love most about that box score is the free throw percentage. It's about time.

There was a lot of carrying on in the game thread about putting Lance back in - guess a lot of people missed that he was hurting.

Trader Joe
12-06-2012, 12:51 AM
I'm thinking the same thing, hopefully it doesn't become a Harden situation were they have to trade him because they can't pay him.

Can anybody explain how that works? Hibbert 14mil, Hill 8mil, West 12mil?, Ian 4mil, Green 3 mil and Danny 14, can the Pacers pay Paul George anything close to what Batum is making?

A total of 57mil for all those players mentioned without Paul George.

Danny's deal is off the books and West's is as well if we want it to be right? So I think it's just matter of trying to balance the beans as it were. Here's the thing Paul is going to get at least George Hill money even if he is just doing his 15, 7, 3 with really good defense act so we need t okeep that in mind.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 01:06 AM
Danny's deal is off the books and West's is as well if we want it to be right? So I think it's just matter of trying to balance the beans as it were. Here's the thing Paul is going to get at least George Hill money even if he is just doing his 15, 7, 3 with really good defense act so we need t okeep that in mind.

If Paul's numbers go up he is going to get more than 8mil a year for sure, for example Danny got 5/60 while averaging 19 and 6, I think Paul George can finish the year averaging 17 and 7, he is going to get Batum kind of money in my opinion.

CJ Jones
12-06-2012, 01:11 AM
Is this the first time Paul George has had two games in a row at this level?

First consecutive 20 point games.


Paul George is playing good at a position many thought he wasn't able to play at, by the way his value has never been this high.

I know your not big on PER (me neither), but I think it's telling just how much higher it is when he's at SF compared to SG both offensively and defensively this season. I've been saying it for a year, but nobody wants to hear it... Paul is a SF, and in no way do he and Danny compliment each other on the offensive end.


I really liked what I saw from Gerald Green tonight. He was focused on defense. He made good rotations. He really helped out in the paint. And had about 5 or 10 seconds of awesome individual defense to force a 24-second violation. Plus he really used his size on offense instead of just standing at the 3 point line.

He's so talented. I wish they'd give him more minutes (DJ's preferably) so he can get comfortable in this offense. I liked the post up even though he missed. Frank should post up the wings more often. He, Lance, and Paul all should get a couple a game.

one other thing... Croshere made a good point during the game that I hadn't thought of concerning Paul's inconsistency. Paul's facing the other teams best defender every game now compared to before when Danny drew that assignment. Here's just the last 5 games... Artest/Salmons/Barnes/Deng/Batum. Those guys can play some D.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 01:20 AM
I know your not big on PER (me neither), but I think it's telling just how much higher it is when he's at SF compared to SG both offensively and defensively this season. I've been saying it for a year, but nobody wants to hear it... Paul is a SF, and in no way do he and Danny compliment each other on the offensive end.



Regardless of what "position" George is slotted in, he plays the same way. I would like to know in what way he and Granger don't compliment each other. They both can shoot from midrange, they both can shoot from 3, they both can drive to the basket effectively (when they feel like). The only difference is that Granger has a legitimate post game, which puts him clearly into the SF role. George has a lot of guard tendencies.

Goyle
12-06-2012, 01:36 AM
I'm thinking the same thing, hopefully it doesn't become a Harden situation were they have to trade him because they can't pay him.

Can anybody explain how that works? Hibbert 14mil, Hill 8mil, West 12mil?, Ian 4mil, Green 3 mil and Danny 14, can the Pacers pay Paul George anything close to what Batum is making?

A total of 57mil for all those players mentioned without Paul George.

In the Harden case, they had to trade him because they had players better than him making more than him. Paul's up in two years, and by that time he's either our best player and we do whatever it takes to keep him or we blow it up.


I know your not big on PER (me neither), but I think it's telling just how much higher it is when he's at SF compared to SG both offensively and defensively this season. I've been saying it for a year, but nobody wants to hear it... Paul is a SF, and in no way do he and Danny compliment each other on the offensive end.

And his PER's not as high as last year when he was our full time SG. Our starting lineup last year was WAY too good to say Paul and Danny don't compliment each other.

I buy into the position revolution that's going on right now, anyway. We have a PG, two wings and two post players.

daschysta
12-06-2012, 01:54 AM
If Paul's numbers go up he is going to get more than 8mil a year for sure, for example Danny got 5/60 while averaging 19 and 6, I think Paul George can finish the year averaging 17 and 7, he is going to get Batum kind of money in my opinion.

If George is showing that kind of potential we're almost certain to keep him, he'll be RFA, he's ours if we choose. If he ends the year at 17/7 while raising his efficiency i'm more than prepared to offer him that kind of money, those are excellent numbers for a 22 year old who still has so much potential. If George ends up a legitimate star there is no way we'd let him go in RFA, we'd move someone else if necessary, but likely wouldn't mind paying luxury tax for a time until we could reshuffle the team, we've done it before afterall, and for the sake of much worse players (dunleavey/murphy).

AesopRockOn
12-06-2012, 02:38 AM
I was really looking forward to seeing Lillard play and he did not disappoint. He scored and dished in pretty much every way possible, directing the offense like a veteran. And he looks like he'll be at least an adequate defender. Not the amazing athleticism of a Rose (at least, was...) or an Irving, but certainly another in the line of very promising young point guards.

Ian and Tyler kind of kept us in the game offensively in the first half. Other than a couple of nice passes, Lance looked out of it. Hope he's not too hurt. Without the raggedness on the defensive rebounding, we win this by twenty.

Couple of good Western teams coming up. I'm excited to see if we (and especially Paul against Iggy and KD) can keep this up.

CJ Jones
12-06-2012, 02:48 AM
Regardless of what "position" George is slotted in, he plays the same way. I would like to know in what way he and Granger don't compliment each other. They both can shoot from midrange, they both can shoot from 3, they both can drive to the basket effectively (when they feel like). The only difference is that Granger has a legitimate post game, which puts him clearly into the SF role. George has a lot of guard tendencies.

Because they do the same things. Paul and Granger both would be better off playing with a ball handler at the SG position. And yes, Granger at this point is the better post player, but he's not great at it. It's not like Paul couldn't become as good or probably even better if we asked him to. Danny's basically a jump shooter like Paul without the passing ability and with an even worse handle. They're redundant on the offensive end.




And his PER's not as high as last year when he was our full time SG. Our starting lineup last year was WAY too good to say Paul and Danny don't compliment each other.

His defensive PER so far at SF is better then last years numbers at either position, he's playing great D at SF. His overall offensive PER isn't as good because of his struggles at SG. The numbers aren't up yet, but I'd assume after the last 2 games it's now over 17 at SF which would be better then last years SG number. He's doing this while drawing the other teams best defender, playing next to non scorers, and being terribly inconsistent . Evidence is beginning to mount that he's better at SF.

Anyone know where I can find what Paul's numbers look like when he's playing next to Lance?

Cubs231721
12-06-2012, 07:40 AM
I'm thinking the same thing, hopefully it doesn't become a Harden situation were they have to trade him because they can't pay him.

Can anybody explain how that works? Hibbert 14mil, Hill 8mil, West 12mil?, Ian 4mil, Green 3 mil and Danny 14, can the Pacers pay Paul George anything close to what Batum is making?

A total of 57mil for all those players mentioned without Paul George.

That adds up to 55 million for those 6 (really 56 since Green is for 3.5 and Hibbert's deal is for almost 15 the year after Paul gets paid).

Danny's contract is done at the same time George hits restricted free agency. Unless Danny plays really, really well the next year and half, I don't think it's likely a 31 year old with potential knee issues will get 14 million per year. You're right though that it will be tight, and the Pacers would have to be very creative with the rest of their bench to make it work and stay under the luxury tax. I think the Pacers believe it will all work, and that cost certainty in future calculations is part of the reason they chose to sign Mahinmi/Green to so long of guaranteed deals in the first place.

Coopdog23
12-06-2012, 08:09 AM
They're starting to get on track now

OlBlu
12-06-2012, 08:28 AM
They're starting to get on track now

Yes, they are and the gloom and doom folks have shut up a bit. They had adjustments to make with Granger being out and some new bench players. They will get on a roll now that they know they can beat anyone in the league. They aren't going to be the two or three seed so many over zealous fans thought they would be but they should get to the five or six seeds that some of us more reasonable fans thought they would be. They will have a tough time winning a round in the playoffs seeded that low but you never know. Howard got injured last year and that allowed them to win a series. Something like that could happen again. They are a super star or two from being contenders and they may never be able to sign or trade for one. Such is the lot of a small market team. I saw that only 11,000 plus attended last night's game... I hope they start building that fan base again.....:cool: ...

greyhound80
12-06-2012, 08:58 AM
Don't get too high over the 2good performances in a row, it'll make you that more disappointed the next time he has a bad game. Just try to enjoy his contributions how he gives them--it's the best way to look at a young Inconsistent player like Paul.

Please let me get too high about PG!!
If he can consistently throw down 18-24 ppg, this team can start thinking about a 3-4 seed.
IF THEY ACQUIRE BENCH IMPROVEMENT OVER AUGUSTIN AND YOUNG!

BillS
12-06-2012, 09:29 AM
I saw that only 11,000 plus attended last night's game... I hope they start building that fan base again.....:cool: ...

11,000+ against the Blazers on a Wednesday night? Not bad, actually, all things considered. Would have been sub-10,000 in previous years.

billbradley
12-06-2012, 09:41 AM
How about that pass through three defenders by PG?

I commented on the passing earlier, but after watching the game again when I got home from BLF, I think it's the biggest reason we're playing better. The ball is at least getting inside and passes are made hard with a purpose. Even when the team looks stagnant, they aren't just lobbing the ball around every other trip on offense.

count55
12-06-2012, 09:45 AM
11,000+ against the Blazers on a Wednesday night? Not bad, actually, all things considered. Would have been sub-10,000 in previous years.

There were maybe 5,000 people in the building. Apparently, something like 265 of them were there to see Meyers Leonard.

Ace E.Anderson
12-06-2012, 10:05 AM
Please let me get too high about PG!!
If he can consistently throw down 18-24 ppg, this team can start thinking about a 3-4 seed.
IF THEY ACQUIRE BENCH IMPROVEMENT OVER AUGUSTIN AND YOUNG!

I mean you can, but don't allow yourself to get too disappointed the next time he has a 6-pt, 3-13 lackadaisical type of game

Trader Joe
12-06-2012, 10:39 AM
If Paul's numbers go up he is going to get more than 8mil a year for sure, for example Danny got 5/60 while averaging 19 and 6, I think Paul George can finish the year averaging 17 and 7, he is going to get Batum kind of money in my opinion.

I agree, just saying we know his base line is almsot certainly going to be above HIll's.

Trader Joe
12-06-2012, 10:41 AM
There were maybe 5,000 people in the building. Apparently, something like 265 of them were there to see Meyers Leonard.

Such is the life of Illinois basketball fan, when Utah had Deron Williams and Dee Brown at the same time a few years ago it was the saddest thing I've ever seen.

McKeyFan
12-06-2012, 11:18 AM
How does Roy stack up in the Defensive Player of the Year race? No shot or simply long-shot?

Hook shot--or at least about the same percentage chance.

pacergod2
12-06-2012, 12:36 PM
props to Gerald Green. Real nice game by him. Good defensive rotations and focus. Caused one 24-second violation all by himself. :thumbup:

Our defensive rotations are getting SOOO much better by the game. Our wings are really starting to find the right spots and the right lanes defensively. There movements are so much more methodical. It is all coming together. We are starting to hit some shots more consistently. The shots that were bouncing of the rim the first couple of weeks are beginning to fall. Our spacing and off-the-ball movement is becoming much better, especially since we have added a lot more back door cuts for the bigs to work off and the PGs to lob to. I am really liking the way we are looking. I think our offensive ball movement is so much less stagnant and a lot of that has to do with confidence. So much of that confidence comes from knowing what their roles are and what they need to look for in match-ups. Vogel has really done a nice job with his rotations lately, IMO. The wing situation up to this point has been a couple of guys fighting for playing time and he has definitely pushed these to work harder to know their stuff and it is paying off. I am REALLY thinking this team is going to be a top contender to come out of the East. There are legitimately about five teams that could get there if they are playing well come playoffs. We need to keep playing "Spurs-like" basketball. Focus on minimizing our mistakes and our oppenents' opportunities off of them. The last couple of games we have really made progress. Cutting cable and getting internet LP was the best TV decision I have made in a long time.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 01:04 PM
Because they do the same things. Paul and Granger both would be better off playing with a ball handler at the SG position. And yes, Granger at this point is the better post player, but he's not great at it. It's not like Paul couldn't become as good or probably even better if we asked him to. Danny's basically a jump shooter like Paul without the passing ability and with an even worse handle. They're redundant on the offensive end.



My point was that they aren't redundant because they're both very good at lots of different things. Using your logic, Granger is redundant with every SF or SG in the league with the exception of combo-guard types. And if we get one of those for our SG, well we already have one in our PG and we are thus redundant at our guard spots.

LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are the definition of redundant players, and I know they are just terrible together. /sarcasm The only real difference is that LeBron is better. There's nothing wrong with stacking up on a couple of players who are both very good offensively and very good defensively.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 01:15 PM
My point was that they aren't redundant because they're both very good at lots of different things. Using your logic, Granger is redundant with every SF or SG in the league with the exception of combo-guard types. And if we get one of those for our SG, well we already have one in our PG and we are thus redundant at our guard spots.

[B]LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are the definition of redundant players, and I know they are just terrible together. /sarcasm [B]The only real difference is that LeBron is better. There's nothing wrong with stacking up on a couple of players who are both very good offensively and very good defensively.

Lebron and Wade even though they won a championship are still a pair that don't match well, I think they both can do better with players that complement them.

Regarding Danny/George, the Pacers for me to compete (one of this day) they need to have a player in that starting unit that can do things that PG/Danny can't do.

Goyle
12-06-2012, 01:31 PM
Have y'all read this yet? http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2012/12/paul-georges-great-passing-against-the-blazers/

If PG keeps getting better at this, which it seems like he's doing every game, then it would seem him and Granger compliment each other pretty well.

Cousy47
12-06-2012, 03:31 PM
I'm thinking the same thing, hopefully it doesn't become a Harden situation were they have to trade him because they can't pay him.

Can anybody explain how that works? Hibbert 14mil, Hill 8mil, West 12mil?, Ian 4mil, Green 3 mil and Danny 14, can the Pacers pay Paul George anything close to what Batum is making?

A total of 57mil for all those players mentioned without Paul George.If we don't pick up the qualifying offers to Tyler and Pendergraft next year, let Ben, Lance and OJA leave, we can make PG a pretty good offer on our own. If we let DWest walk and move Granger to the 4 spot with Plumlee and/or Mahinmi doing backup, we can make him a longer term extension/salary offer. PG is ours for next year either way. The big choice, IMO, is whether we lose West after this season and/or Danny after next season.Unless the Ps want to go deep into LT in the next 2/4 years, we can't keep evryone.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 03:44 PM
Lebron and Wade even though they won a championship are still a pair that don't match well, I think they both can do better with players that complement them.

Regarding Danny/George, the Pacers for me to compete (one of this day) they need to have a player in that starting unit that can do things that PG/Danny can't do.

I agree that they still don't match very well. But because of how talented they are, they still make it work. Fortunately for us, even though PG and Granger aren't as good as either of Miami's two players, the parts of their games that overlap don't involve them both wanting to be the guy that dominates the ball and runs the offense. You have two guys who can do some similar things, but won't get in each other way. It's not like both will take 20-30 shots every night when Granger's back; they can both take 12-15.

Both can create for themselves, but both also know how to get open to take advantage of guys drawing the defense in. Which is something that honestly LBJ and Wade lacked when they first teamed up.

CJ Jones
12-06-2012, 07:21 PM
I agree that they still don't match very well. But because of how talented they are, they still make it work. Fortunately for us, even though PG and Granger aren't as good as either of Miami's two players, the parts of their games that overlap don't involve them both wanting to be the guy that dominates the ball and runs the offense. You have two guys who can do some similar things, but won't get in each other way. It's not like both will take 20-30 shots every night when Granger's back; they can both take 12-15.

Both can create for themselves, but both also know how to get open to take advantage of guys drawing the defense in. Which is something that honestly LBJ and Wade lacked when they first teamed up.

I'm just reporting the numbers. It's clear Paul's playing better at SF, and it's not even close. Therefor they are redundant if their best position is the same and mostly do the same things on the court. I don't buy into a wings a wing philosophy that most people do around here. There's a reason Paul's playing better next to Lance than Green. There's a reason he's defending SFs better than SGs. It's a small sample size, but it doesn't surprise me at all. I've been saying this would happen for a year, and it's beginning to look like I'm not as foolish as some thought. He's not a SG.

As for Danny, he's never taken less then 16 shots a game. If when he comes back he takes 12-15 good shots a game I won't have a problem, but if he's the usual 26% usage, 10% assist Danny then I'll continue to say he's holding Paul back. Do we really want to see Paul revert to doing Lance's job on offense? I don't. We need him to continue his development and become the best player he can be if we want to have any chance at competing with the contenders. Playing in this offense and playing SG alongside Danny has slowed that development down IMO. I'd hate to see him become the 4th or 5th option again. Would that make the team better now? Probably, but not in the long run.

cgg
12-06-2012, 07:24 PM
If he draws the best defender and defends the biggest threat, then what exactly is the difference between him playing SG and SF?

CJ Jones
12-06-2012, 08:15 PM
If he draws the best defender and defends the biggest threat, then what exactly is the difference between him playing SG and SF?

There isn't one IMO as long as the team is balanced, and it's not if we have no real facilitators 1-3 in the starting lineup. When Danny comes back I'm afraid Paul's usage rate will drop, and he'll be back to defending strictly SGs and being defended by SGs which is not in his best interest IMO. Either way I'll be rooting for them even if they are a flawed team.

Anthem
12-06-2012, 08:35 PM
I'm just reporting the numbers. It's clear Paul's playing better at SF, and it's not even close.
What are these "numbers" you speak of? What's your basis of comparison?

I'll grant that Paul's playing better this year than last, but I've seen no indication that it's his position that's made the difference.

CJ Jones
12-06-2012, 08:45 PM
What are these "numbers" you speak of? What's your basis of comparison?

I'll grant that Paul's playing better this year than last, but I've seen no indication that it's his position that's made the difference.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12IND7.HTM

Those are his numbers not counting the last 2 games. He had a PER of 18 at SF before his 0 and 4 games, and I'd expect it to go back up close to 17 after his last 2 really good games. He's been awful at SG this year though, both offensively and defensively.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 09:55 PM
http://www.82games.com/1213/12IND7.HTM

Those are his numbers not counting the last 2 games. He had a PER of 18 at SF before his 0 and 4 games, and I'd expect it to go back up close to 17 after his last 2 really good games. He's been awful at SG this year though, both offensively and defensively.

So basically you're saying that he plays better next to Lance than he does Young or Green. I can agree with that. But I also think that applies to every other starter; it's not just Paul George's game. It's not like a video game where if you stick a SG in your PF slot he's going to be guarded by the opposing team's PF. I understand that with SG/SF it's more subtle than that, but that's kind of what my point is. The position he's playing on 82games.com seems to be determined by who he's on the court with, which doesn't really determine who's guarding Paul and who Paul is guarding in actuality.

Unless they're playing a very small SG, Paul George typically guards the best wing player and is defended by the best wing player. You may be right that he will play better primarily as a SF, but I don't think that the stat you are using for support isolates the instance well enough.

Think correlation vs. causation.

Anthem
12-06-2012, 10:42 PM
http://www.82games.com/1213/12IND7.HTM

Those are his numbers not counting the last 2 games. He had a PER of 18 at SF before his 0 and 4 games, and I'd expect it to go back up close to 17 after his last 2 really good games. He's been awful at SG this year though, both offensively and defensively.
Come on, we both know that's not legit. You don't have a big enough sample size to even begin to make the claims you're making. Forget "correlation is not causation," you're not even proving correlation.

I like 82games, but if they're claiming that subbing Gerald Green for Stephenson is switching George back and forth from the 2 to the 3, then they're simply wrong. George is defending the other team's top wing scorer, no matter what their position. And he's playing the same spot on offense either way.

And NONE of this proves that Paul George can't do this next to Danny Granger.

Eleazar
12-06-2012, 10:49 PM
http://www.82games.com/1213/12IND7.HTM

Those are his numbers not counting the last 2 games. He had a PER of 18 at SF before his 0 and 4 games, and I'd expect it to go back up close to 17 after his last 2 really good games. He's been awful at SG this year though, both offensively and defensively.

You know the majority of Paul's minutes as a SG came at the beginning of the season, where no one played well.

Also last year his PER as a SG was higher than SF. Personally I do not know how they decide when he is playing SG and when he is playing SF so I don't trust how it is split to be accurate.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 11:04 PM
Come on, we both know that's not legit. You don't have a big enough sample size to even begin to make the claims you're making. Forget "correlation is not causation," you're not even proving correlation.

I like 82games, but if they're claiming that subbing Gerald Green for Stephenson is switching George back and forth from the 2 to the 3, then they're simply wrong. George is defending the other team's top wing scorer, no matter what their position. And he's playing the same spot on offense either way.

And NONE of this proves that Paul George can't do this next to Danny Granger.

We have the same opinion about what the stat isn't saying. But if you look at the 5 man units PG has been a part of he has spent a significant amount of time playing with Young and Green. So the stat does indicate that to this point PG has played better when Stephenson out there.

It does say nothing about the position PG is playing, you are right. And it doesn't say whether Stephenson caused everybody to play better, whether the team has just played more minutes "getting it" with Stephenson in the starting lineup, or whether PG does in fact play better because Stephenson is playing as an obvious SG. It doesn't say whether this will continue to be the case.

But the correlation still exists that he has played better with Lance up until this point. However, correlation is even less useful in sports than in other situations because a player's performance depends on so many different things.

It most assuredly does not say that PG is a better SF than SG though.

CJ Jones
12-06-2012, 11:37 PM
.


Come on, we both know that's not legit. You don't have a big enough sample size to even begin to make the claims you're making. Forget "correlation is not causation," you're not even proving correlation.

I like 82games, but if they're claiming that subbing Gerald Green for Stephenson is switching George back and forth from the 2 to the 3, then they're simply wrong. George is defending the other team's top wing scorer, no matter what their position. And he's playing the same spot on offense either way.

And NONE of this proves that Paul George can't do this next to Danny Granger.

I questioned their stats on Lance last year and was told they do watch every play :whoknows:. If they're wrong why do people here and writers everywhere use their stats?

Regardless, I said it was a small sample size, but we are nearing 1/4 of the way thru the season. Maybe the 1/2 way point would of been a better time bring it up. Also, I never said Paul couldn't do this with Danny. He probably can, but Danny and the team need to let/make him. I think it's tougher for him to play well on both ends being forced to play SG with Danny, but I think he's talented enough to make it work. However, my opinion at this point is they'd both be better players with ball handling, facilitating, SG. Aren't you a Monta guy? j/k


[QUOTE]You know the majority of Paul's minutes as a SG came at the beginning of the season, where no one played well. Yeah he played a lot of those minutes early on with Green, but according to them he's played 21% of the SG minutes so he's had to have played some of those minutes when Young was on the floor. Again, according to them.

edit: nope I'm wrong, they got Sam playing all his minutes at SG when Paul's on the floor. So, who knows how they tally up the minutes played by position?



Also last year his PER as a SG was higher than SF. Personally I do not know how they decide when he is playing SG and when he is playing SF so I don't trust how it is split to be accurate.

That could be because he only guarded the really good SFs last year until the very end of the season. And again, I don't make the stats I'm just reporting them. The numbers are so drastically different it almost makes me believe them or else I'll never be able to trust their stats again after a slip up like that :hmm:. I always assumed they looked at the opponent counterpart or who you're guarding and whose guarding you. For instance, you could be playing 2 positions at once if you're guarding the SG and being guarded by the SF which is the case quite often with Paul. An example being the Warriors game when he (kinda) guarded Thompson while on the other end was being guarded by the rookie SF, but then again I don't know how they add up the total minutes. I'd like to know myself.

Peck
12-07-2012, 04:27 AM
I hate to be "that guy", but I will be.

I don't need stats or frankly care what they say about George & Granger working together, I've seen it with my eyes & I can tell you it not only can work it works very well.

When they are both in we become very long, very athletic & very diverse on offense.

They both can play exceptional defense man to man, both are good rebounders, both are solid shooters, both can get to the rim and both are decent passers. Neither is a great ball handler but they can get by.

Let's not play fantasy here, this is what we have to accept/deal with. There is no superstar shooting guard we going to bring in here to play next to either George or Granger so at the end of the day we have no choice but to hope beyond all hopes that this meshing works.

I think it does now, I think last season proved it.

CJ Jones
12-07-2012, 05:36 AM
Fair enough, I looked at the stats for the first time a few games ago and thought it was an interesting stat, at least something to keep an eye on. I get killed on here all the time for stating my opinion without "facts", and here I find one that so far backs up my opinion and still get killed for it :hmm:. It seems perfectly fine for their (82games) stats to be used to prove how great Danny's D was last year or the impact he made on the game because of his simple rating, but I guess I should expect that by now. Maybe they're wrong or I'm misunderstanding the numbers, but if not and Paul continues playing better on both ends at SF I think it'll prove he's more comfortable there. Long way to go before that though.

aamcguy
12-07-2012, 06:46 AM
Fair enough, I looked at the stats for the first time a few games ago and thought it was an interesting stat, at least something to keep an eye on. I get killed on here all the time for stating my opinion without "facts", and here I find one that so far backs up my opinion and still get killed for it :hmm:. It seems perfectly fine for their (82games) stats to be used to prove how great Danny's D was last year or the impact he made on the game because of his simple rating, but I guess I should expect that by now. Maybe they're wrong or I'm misunderstanding the numbers, but if not and Paul continues playing better on both ends at SF I think it'll prove he's more comfortable there. Long way to go before that though.

There's nothing wrong with using stats, but the stat you are using doesn't really capture how the Pacers have used Paul. He guards the best wing regardless of position and plays as the dominant scoring wing regardless of who he's playing with. Even if they have them switching positions in the box score, he isn't changing his style of play.

CJ Jones
12-07-2012, 08:36 AM
[QUOTE=aamcguy;1541511]There's nothing wrong with using stats, but the stat you are using doesn't really capture how the Pacers have used Paul. He guards the best wing regardless of position and plays as the dominant scoring wing regardless of who he's playing with. Even if they have them switching positions in the box score, he isn't changing his style of play.

If their stats are correct then he is changing his level of play depending on what position he plays and defends. I'm just not sure how they determine what position it is he's playing.

Common sense says he should be able to use his limited dribbling ability, speed, and quickness better against SFs. I can't prove it yet even if those numbers are correct, but IMO until he develops a post game he'll always be more successful (on both ends) against guys his size, but like Peck said it doesn't really matter because we got these guys for at least a couple more years. Let's hope they figure it out. I know a way we might make it work...

Free Lance!!!1

Eleazar
12-07-2012, 09:11 AM
Or it could just mean that when he is guarded by a SG the reason a SG is guarding him is because they are the best wing defender on the team. Without Granger it doesn't make sense for teams to put a SG on George unless he is a vastly superior defender to the SF.

McKeyFan
12-07-2012, 09:29 AM
Or it could just mean that when he is guarded by a SG the reason a SG is guarding him is because they are the best wing defender on the team. Without Granger it doesn't make sense for teams to put a SG on George unless he is a vastly superior defender to the SF.

Well, it also makes sense to put their best defender on George because Lance just stands in the corner.

Anthem
12-07-2012, 03:44 PM
We have the same opinion about what the stat isn't saying. But if you look at the 5 man units PG has been a part of he has spent a significant amount of time playing with Young and Green. So the stat does indicate that to this point PG has played better when Stephenson out there.
More specifically, the 5-man unit that Paul George is a part of is better when Stephenson is in it as opposed to Young and Green. My eyes tell me the same thing.

I attribute that to Stephenson being a better player than those two guys, and a better fit in the starting lineup.

I expect the 5-man unit to be even better if/when Granger comes back healthy.

Anthem
12-07-2012, 03:48 PM
Fair enough, I looked at the stats for the first time a few games ago and thought it was an interesting stat, at least something to keep an eye on. I get killed on here all the time for stating my opinion without "facts", and here I find one that so far backs up my opinion and still get killed for it :hmm:. It seems perfectly fine for their (82games) stats to be used to prove how great Danny's D was last year or the impact he made on the game because of his simple rating, but I guess I should expect that by now. Maybe they're wrong or I'm misunderstanding the numbers, but if not and Paul continues playing better on both ends at SF I think it'll prove he's more comfortable there. Long way to go before that though.
Hey, sorry if I was too hard on ya. In general, I completely agree that stats are a good thing. In this case, though, I think watching the games makes it pretty clear: subbing Gerald Green for Lance doesn't make Paul George move to a different position. To the extent that there's a difference between SG and SF, Paul George has been playing SF exclusively all year.