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Trophy
12-04-2012, 11:30 PM
Drive home safely!

BEEP BEEP!

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 11:31 PM
Paul was the man today, just so you guys know his value would never be this high.



Go Pacers !!!!

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 11:32 PM
3-1 on a road trip....really nicely done by the boys. I said at the start of the season if we were 10-11 after 21 games it would be a huge win. Well I never thought we would be seriously looking at that when we were 4-7. nice job.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 11:32 PM
And thanks Tom T for leaving the clown of Nate in the game long enough for him to help us win.

PGisthefuture
12-04-2012, 11:32 PM
So mad I missed this game up until midway through the 3rd. It's always fun to beat the Bulls.

Coupe
12-04-2012, 11:33 PM
Cant make out any of Nate's tats.

Sollozzo
12-04-2012, 11:33 PM
This is why we'd be fools to give up on PG anytime soon. You don't trade a 22 year old who can play like that. He has the potential to be one of the best offensive players the Pacers have ever had. He just has all of the tools. God his shot is pretty when it drops like it was tonight.

Just wait till he hits his mid 20's.

Johanvil
12-04-2012, 11:33 PM
Paul "MJ" George!
Please don't ever tell me to settle with Paul just being a great defender and 14 ppg player when he is able to do things like tonight.Probably he will never become dominant i know but it's a damn shame cause the talent is there.Plus he drove to the basket.How's that for a change?Nate Robinson you're a punk and i don't see you celebrating now.Idiot!

rock747
12-04-2012, 11:33 PM
pacers seem to be getting back on track but they're going to have to do something about the backup pg position.

Mr_Smith
12-04-2012, 11:33 PM
Anybody still want Paul George traded?

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 11:34 PM
Nate Robinson giveth, Nate Robinson taketh away

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 11:34 PM
Anybody still want Paul George traded?

Yes they should trade him so we can move Danny to his natural position.

Mr_Smith
12-04-2012, 11:35 PM
And thanks Tom T for leaving the clown of Nate in the game long enough for him to help us win.

For everything he did in the fourth to bring them back, he made one bone-head play that helped us out. No wonder he can't stay on one team for a long period of time.

boombaby1987
12-04-2012, 11:35 PM
Man Paul why do you have to renew my confidence in you every time I've lost almost all hope?:D

boombaby1987
12-04-2012, 11:35 PM
Yes they should trade him so we can move Danny to his natural position.

The reverse argument? :hmm:

Trophy
12-04-2012, 11:35 PM
Great win tonight and a win against the Bulls in Chicago is always extra sweet!

PG24 was the man tonight and hopefully that continues.

Pacergeek
12-04-2012, 11:35 PM
Lance with the play of the game!

rel
12-04-2012, 11:35 PM
Look at that, Paul. When you drive, good things happen :)
Best game of his career.

Pace Maker
12-04-2012, 11:36 PM
so that's what having a superstar is like

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 11:36 PM
Paul "MJ" George!
Please don't ever tell me to settle with Paul just being a great defender and 14 ppg player when he is able to do things like tonight.Probably he will never become dominant i know but it's a damn shame cause the talent is there.Plus he drove to the basket.How's that for a change?Nate Robinson you're a punk and i don't see you celebrating now.Idiot!

I don't see why it is a shame for him to be one of the best defenders on the wing, one of the best rebounders on the wing, and give you 15ppg with games where he will occasionally pop over 30. That's just the type of guy he is. Nothing wrong with it. He's one of the best young two way wing players in the NBA even if he will never be the consistent scorer some want him to be.

HickeyS2000
12-04-2012, 11:36 PM
Anyone watch the Bulls feed? It would have been golden to hear Stacey (sp? boombaby?) King blaming the refs for the loss. By far the worst commentary in the league. I HATE the bulls! Go B&G!

LG33
12-04-2012, 11:36 PM
George Hill (3-16) and David West (3-12) had rough outings. You'd expect a blowout loss looking at those numbers. I guess PG was seriously upset about his last performance.

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 11:36 PM
pacers seem to be getting back on track but they're going to have to do something about the backup pg position.

Before this game I was ready to defend Augustin and tell people to give him more time. Because when he's played well, he's been a difference maker. But basically, he's only as good as Mahinmi is that night from 15-18 feet. I think he would be a very good backup PG on any team with a lot of jump shooters. But that's just not us.

McKeyFan
12-04-2012, 11:36 PM
This is the first game that Paul George impressed me on offense. He shot very few threes. He hit several midrange shots. He got to the rim. He penetrated and dumped to other players for easy shots.

Until tonight, all I've seen is three point attempts and drives to the rim where he usually did not convert. Tonight's performance was something very different. It was great.

BlueCollarColts
12-04-2012, 11:37 PM
one way to describe this game: Paul George, wasn't like he just got lucky and hit 9 threes in a game, he was creating his own shot a lot and got to the rim some too, best game of the year for him IMO

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 11:37 PM
Anyone watch the Bulls feed? It would have been golden to hear Stacey (sp? boombaby?) King blaming the refs for the loss. By far the worst commentary in the league. I HATE the bulls! Go B&G!

They actually weren't bad this game. They questioned a lot of the calls that had a bit of 50-50 in them, but they weren't too homerish this time. I think they're depressed due to the lack of Derrick Rose.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 11:37 PM
Yes they should trade him so we can move Danny to his natural position.

Why can't we all just admit that if Danny can return healthy we have one of the better wing tandems in the league? lol They're not Lebron and Wade, but they blend pretty well together and their size is a huge issue for most teams.

Gold
12-04-2012, 11:37 PM
My goodness. Paul George gave the Bulls a healthy 30+ and kept Deng at 5-15.

He really looked like a superstar tonight.

LetsTalkPacers84
12-04-2012, 11:38 PM
:happydanc

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 11:38 PM
My goodness. Paul George gave the Bulls a healthy 30+ and kept Deng at 5-15.

He really looked like a superstar tonight.

Don't say that word

Sollozzo
12-04-2012, 11:39 PM
Like I said in the other post game thread, this is why we'd be fools to give up on PG anytime soon. You don't trade a 22 year old who can play like that. He has all of the tools to be one of the better scorers that the Pacers have ever had. God his shot is pretty when it falls like it did tonight. Just wait till this dude hits his mid 20's and gets more confidence.

Cinci_Lance_Hibs
12-04-2012, 11:39 PM
Great win tonight. Lets hope there is a good crowd to welcome them home tomorrow after this great road trip. Hope to be making my first trip of the year.

BornReady
12-04-2012, 11:39 PM
I know we're not supposed to get too high or low after each win or loss but...
WE WIN WE WIN HAHAHAHAHA

Nuntius
12-04-2012, 11:40 PM
Yes they should trade him so we can move Danny to his natural position.

Danny is in his natural position. We shouldn't trade PG but if we were to ever trade him the best time would be now.

I don't want him traded, though. I wouldn't be happy at all.

rel
12-04-2012, 11:40 PM
Anyone watch the Bulls feed? It would have been golden to hear Stacey (sp? boombaby?) King blaming the refs for the loss. By far the worst commentary in the league. I HATE the bulls! Go B&G!

Honestly, I didn't think it was that bad. Yea, they were crying foul at the end, but other than that, I didn't have any problem listening to them. If anything, they weren't talking enough at times...

cgg
12-04-2012, 11:41 PM
Paul George is trending in Chicago.

immortality
12-04-2012, 11:41 PM
Nate Robinson giveth, Nate Robinson taketh away

That lob pass attempt to Noah, basically gave us the game. Thank you Nate Robinson.

Sollozzo
12-04-2012, 11:41 PM
Few things feel better than coming out of Chicago with a win. I despise that team. Always have, always will.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 11:43 PM
Few things feel better than coming out of Chicago with a win. I despise that team. Always have, always will.

Thibodeau looking like his day job is posing riddles to travelers going across one of the bridges in downtown Chicago makes it even easier.

LG33
12-04-2012, 11:43 PM
Four Eastern Conference teams with better records than us lost tonight. Philly, Miami, Brooklyn and Chicago. We're back in the playoff picture!

Johanvil
12-04-2012, 11:43 PM
I don't see why it is a shame for him to be one of the best defenders on the wing, one of the best rebounders on the wing, and give you 15ppg with games where he will occasionally pop over 30. That's just the type of guy he is. Nothing wrong with it. He's one of the best young two way wing players in the NBA even if he will never be the consistent scorer some want him to be.

This leads back to the conversation in the other thread.I am not saying that it would be bad but i wish he becomes much better than that and a constant threat offensively.Did you see how driving to the basket helped him tonight?It's simple really.What the hell stopped him doing that in other games?Huh?He doesn't need to feel he has a hot hand in order to drive to the basket.Now if he gains some consistency and belief in himself he will be really close to being a superstar.I firmly believe that.What i don't firmly believe is he will gain those 2.I wish i'll be proven wrong because that way he will tremendously help my team.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 11:45 PM
I'm just not sure Paul consistently has the skills to drive to the basket. I'm really happy with where he is right now. i don't ever see him cracking 18pgg, I think that is his absolute ceiling, but if he proves me wrong, then I will be thrilled, because I already really like what he gives us.

Cactus Jax
12-04-2012, 11:46 PM
Will Derrick Rose get upset that the Pacers celebrated too much again? :)

Johanvil
12-04-2012, 11:47 PM
Some mod to merge the threads.As usual, Vnzla81 doesn't want anyone else to start the post game threads.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
12-04-2012, 11:48 PM
Unlike the Hornets game, this wasn't fool's gold. Probably the best game of PG's career. Way to attack the rim Paul!

Now if he can just work on his post game interview skills lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lrhTHRQfSU

Pacerized
12-04-2012, 11:48 PM
Great win. Looking at PG it's hard to imagine how he could have played so poorly against the Warriors.
My god our bench looked bad though but at least they lived up to my expectations.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 11:48 PM
By the way Paul George looked good tonight because Vogel was calling plays for him like he did in the beginning of the season, the only difference tonight is that he was making shots and was aggressive.

Johanvil
12-04-2012, 11:49 PM
Lakers won again i see.

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 11:49 PM
Will Derrick Rose get upset that the Pacers celebrated too much again? :)

I bet they're getting tired of watching Hibbert walk to the Indiana bench with his arms stuck high in the air, smiling excessively.

Nuntius
12-04-2012, 11:50 PM
George Hill (3-16) and David West (3-12) had rough outings. You'd expect a blowout loss looking at those numbers. I guess PG was seriously upset about his last performance.

Honestly, a win against the Bulls is better than a win against the Warriors. We absolutely have to win our games against divisional rivals. Our playoff positioning may rely solely on winning the Central or not.

Johanvil
12-04-2012, 11:52 PM
Bench contribution was limited to 12 points....

Eleazar
12-04-2012, 11:55 PM
Bench contribution was limited to 12 points....

Part of that was because they played so little. Part of that was because George played so well, and Augustin and to a lesser degree Hansbrough played so poorly.

Nuntius
12-04-2012, 11:55 PM
I'm very, very glad about this win. It was a game of terrific importance.

As I said earlier, as the East seems to play out, chances are that we have to win the Central in order to attain a good playoff seed. So, we must absolutely have the upper hand in our games against Chicago and (possibly) Milwaukee.

Great time to step up, PG :D

Ace E.Anderson
12-04-2012, 11:55 PM
Four Eastern Conference teams with better records than us lost tonight. Philly, Miami, Brooklyn and Chicago. We're back in the playoff picture!

We lead the central division.

Johanvil
12-04-2012, 11:55 PM
George Hill (3-16) and David West (3-12) had rough outings. You'd expect a blowout loss looking at those numbers. I guess PG was seriously upset about his last performance.

True that and i will further mention that besides Paul being Superman,it really helped that Chicago also shot terribly.We are used to this and if I'm not wrong most of our wins have come because the opponent shoot terribly too.It's worrying and sad but that's how it is.We can only hope we will improve.

Pace Maker
12-04-2012, 11:56 PM
Paul George is trending in Chicago.
And...he isn't in Indianapolis :/

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2012, 11:56 PM
5 road wins, NBA high 12 road games played so far

It's a lot like last season where Indy proved itself on the road while Philly got fat at home. Let's say Danny rolls back into the lineup to start FEB...right when they get 10 of 12 at home, plus the all-star break. If you'll recall my thread about this previously the 2 road games will still feature flights back home that same night which means they will sleep in their own beds for an entire month, barring AS activities.

Could be when the team "suddenly" explodes in the standings.



Ian is coming around. I just wish he could hold onto the ball. If he could he could get you an easy 10 off the bench all the time. Green had a helpful but quiet night, ditto Young. Lance on the boards really helped (esp when you dunk a miss/pass).

But obviously this team is all Hill-West on offense with Paul starting to show up, and then Roy on defense. Add Danny back and really this team is very similar to last year. They just have had a clunky start without Danny and while trying to fit in the new bench.

Johanvil
12-04-2012, 11:58 PM
to a lesser degree Hansbrough played so poorly.

Speaking of him,what the hell has happened to his jump shot?It's not that he misses a lot of shots,it seems like ages he last scored one.It's gone AWOL or something.

Eleazar
12-04-2012, 11:59 PM
True that and i will further mention that besides Paul being Superman,it really helped that Chicago also shot terribly.We are used to this and if I'm not wrong most of our wins have come because the opponent shoot terribly too.It's worrying and sad but that's how it is.We can only hope we will improve.

Teams consistently shoot poorly against us, even good shooting teams. That isn't luck, that is design. That is the team going out there and playing great defense every time down, making the other team work hard for every shot.

15th parallel
12-05-2012, 12:01 AM
We know PG really has the tools to be an elite scorer. What he really needs is consistency. He's still young and has a lot of time to reach that level of consistency in scoring. We just need to be patient and bear with his poor shooting outings from time to time.

We still need a lot of work to do in offense. While our defense has been superb for most of the games like this one, offense still is the name of the game. Defense can't win the Pacers a lot of games if they themselves cannot capitalize on scoring from the other end and shoot less than 40% from the field.

aamcguy
12-05-2012, 12:01 AM
Teams consistently shoot poorly against us, even good shooting teams. That isn't luck, that is design. That is the team going out there and playing great defense every time down, making the other team work hard for every shot.

Basically, our defense forces the opposing offense to resemble the Pacers offense. Only fair, right? lol

Naptown_Seth
12-05-2012, 12:01 AM
Why can't we all just admit that if Danny can return healthy we have one of the better wing tandems in the league? lol They're not Lebron and Wade, but they blend pretty well together and their size is a huge issue for most teams.
Wait, we haven't admitted that already? I have.

And as floundering as Roy's offense has been, if he was wagging his finger he could Mutumbo his way back to the AS game. He's adjusted more shots than PhotoShop.

cgg
12-05-2012, 12:01 AM
Speaking of him,what the hell has happened to his jump shot?It's not that he misses a lot of shots,it seems like ages he last scored one.It's gone AWOL or something.

It was never very good, except for a month or two he had a pretty good stretch.

skyfire
12-05-2012, 12:02 AM
Best game Paul George has ever played. Not raining 3s, just having to work for his points against a quality defender and making some tough shots along the way. It was the most I've seen him dialed in for a game in a long while. He really didn't want to let us lose tonight.

Roy got lucky on that drive by Deng near the end, he did go straight up (sorta) but he didn't get the ball and there was a ton of contact. Surprised that wasn't 2 shots for Deng.

Pretty strange game when we can have 14pts from our staring backcourt and have West play a poor game and still get the win.

aamcguy
12-05-2012, 12:03 AM
It was never very good, except for a month or two he had a pretty good stretch.

It's historically bad this year though. He has to be shooting some ridiculous 10-15% from outside of 10 feet this year.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 12:03 AM
it really helped that Chicago also shot terribly.We are used to this and if I'm not wrong most of our wins have come because the opponent shoot terribly too.

Teams are going shoot horribly against us. We mostly allow them to shoot mid range jumpers and some 3s. We are taking away the higher percentage shots and we only give them low percentage ones. That's our defensive design. And it's working great.

Wanna know which teams are going to shoot against us? Teams that have bigs that can hit the mid range 3 and teams with sharp shooters at the wings and point. That's why Golden State beat us.

cgg
12-05-2012, 12:04 AM
It's historically bad this year though. He has to be shooting some ridiculous 10-15% from outside of 10 feet this year.

I haven't seen him take very many though, so maybe he's given up on it! :-p

Ace E.Anderson
12-05-2012, 12:06 AM
Teams are going shoot horribly against us. We mostly allow them to shoot mid range jumpers and some 3s. We are taking away the higher percentage shots and we only give them low percentage ones. That's our defensive design. And it's working great.

Wanna know which teams are going to shoot against us? Teams that have bigs that can hit the mid range 3 and teams with sharp shooters at the wings and point. That's why Golden State beat us.

And SA. There are few teams that have the roster to execute the offense to exploit the pacers defense with the way we've been playing.

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 12:07 AM
Green had a helpful but quiet night.
Helpful?No.Quite?Yes.

From what we have seen from this team(really poor shooting,bonehead decision making at times,some games we had a very good flow though,players way under performing,tough schedule with most road trips so far etc),a 9-9 record is a very decent one i guess.We can only get better from here.

boombaby1987
12-05-2012, 12:08 AM
Four Eastern Conference teams with better records than us lost tonight. Philly, Miami, Brooklyn and Chicago. We're back in the playoff picture!

Sarcasmish?

Miller_time04
12-05-2012, 12:10 AM
It's historically bad this year though. He has to be shooting some ridiculous 10-15% from outside of 10 feet this year.

He misses literally every single one. I scream at the tv every time. I don't know why he keeps shooting them. Might as well just pass the ball to the defender.

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 12:13 AM
Teams are going shoot horribly against us. We mostly allow them to shoot mid range jumpers and some 3s. We are taking away the higher percentage shots and we only give them low percentage ones. That's our defensive design. And it's working great.

Wanna know which teams are going to shoot against us? Teams that have bigs that can hit the mid range 3 and teams with sharp shooters at the wings and point. That's why Golden State beat us.

Nunti it's a combination man.You just can't give credit only to our D.They may have also missed some easy shots/baskets that another night would score with closed eyes.

Eleazar
12-05-2012, 12:13 AM
Helpful?No.Quite?Yes.

From what we have seen from this team(really poor shooting,bonehead decision making at times,some games we had a very good flow though,players way under performing,tough schedule with most road trips so far etc),a 9-9 record is a very decent one i guess.We can only get better from here.

He only played 6 minutes, so what he did do I would consider helpful.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 12:16 AM
I'm also still mad at Vogel for calling that horrible play at the end, why can't he call something else? Doesn't he knows that teams have scouts and everybody and their mom knows that same play? Not only that but Paul George was on fire so he decided to call that bs? I'm losing faith in Vogel. ...

Eleazar
12-05-2012, 12:17 AM
Nunti it's a combination man.You just can't give credit only to our D.They may have also missed some easy shots/baskets that another night would score with closed eyes.

Why are teams consistently missing those shots against us? There isn't some conspiracy to miss a ton of "easy" shots every game by the league. There is only one common factor, the Pacers defense.

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 12:18 AM
He only played 6 minutes, so what he did do I would consider helpful.

You probably think everyone who played helped the team so I'll leave it at that.
BTW i never said he was detrimental,OK?He got limited time,i accept that so we better not judge him one way or another.

Eleazar
12-05-2012, 12:20 AM
You probably think everyone who played helped the team so I'll leave it at that.
BTW i never said he was detrimental,OK?He got limited time,i accept that so we better not judge him one way or another.

You must not have read very many of my comments then.

cgg
12-05-2012, 12:22 AM
There seems to be a misconception that all open shots go in. Everyone misses a decent amount of open shots. Just because they miss some open shots doesn't mean the team didn't play good defense as a whole.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 12:24 AM
Ian is coming around. I just wish he could hold onto the ball. If he could he could get you an easy 10 off the bench all the time.

I said it before and I'll say it again.

Ian is a good back-up. He can protect the rim and he seems to have good offensive insticts. He can read a defense and make the correct play (drive or shot). He understands some spacing (he doesn't clog the lane when his guards are driving). He can hit the mid range J at least semi-competently so he can keep the defense open. He can draw fouls and is good at the line (68.8% is quite good for a back-up big). He can also finish at the rim.

He has two weaknesses on the offensive side of the floor:

1) He has bad hands. Unfortunately, that's a great weakness for a big. If he had good hands I firmly believe that he could be a starter on a team. Not a great starter but better than the likes of Sheldon Williams (just an example as I actually like Sheldon).

2) He is a bad passer. Luckily, he seems to be aware of this and does not attempt to pass a lot. Personally, I'm happy to see Ian driving to the rim the moment he gets the ball because he will be fouled most of the time.

Defensively, he is solid. He is better than Hibbert on the PnR (that's not saying a lot, though) and he can protect the rim (which we sorely need when Hibbert is out). He is not a great rebounder (mainly due to his bad hands) and he sometimes falls for the shot fake a bit too much but I like what he's giving us.

Ace E.Anderson
12-05-2012, 12:24 AM
Why are teams consistently missing those shots against us? There isn't some conspiracy to miss a ton of "easy" shots every game by the league. There is only one common factor, the Pacers defense.

Unless you have a PG that is very good in the mid range/pull up game AND a big that can shoot the outside jumper, Teams don't get very many easy shots against us. We rarely allow layups/dunks, and we are starting to challenge 3pt FGA very well also. If we had a backup PG who could play good on the ball defense, we'd be pretty damn complete.

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 12:25 AM
Why are teams consistently missing those shots against us? There isn't some conspiracy to miss a ton of "easy" shots every game by the league. There is only one common factor, the Pacers defense.

I never said we don't play great D.If there is one thing that keeps us afloat,that's it.What will happen,if we face a good team that won't shoot horribly(even if it's down to our D or not) but close to 45% for example?

aamcguy
12-05-2012, 12:28 AM
Why are teams consistently missing those shots against us? There isn't some conspiracy to miss a ton of "easy" shots every game by the league. There is only one common factor, the Pacers defense.

I agree completely. The truth is that every team misses easy shots every night. We miss easy shots every night. If every team hit all of their easy shots, the FG% would be off the charts. Basically the Spurs or the Heat when they're rolling.

One thing that I liked that we did tonight is we adjusted on defense for all of the screens that Chicago sets. Instead of playing straight man to man defense, when they ran particularly congested sets they morphed into a weird interior matchup zone where Hibbert just floated in front of the hoop and the other forwards switched until the screens were all done. Mahinmi did a decent job of it too, though he was able to do it more with his lateral quickness rather than presence.

ColeTheMole
12-05-2012, 12:32 AM
Why are a lot of people getting mad over the George Hill David West final play? Of course Paul was really hot, but that play WON THE GAME in LA.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 12:32 AM
And SA. There are few teams that have the roster to execute the offense to exploit the pacers defense with the way we've been playing.

True. But really, SA can beat anyone. That's why I didn't even mention them.

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 12:35 AM
Why are a lot of people getting mad over the George Hill David West final play? Of course Paul was really hot, but that play WON THE GAME in LA.

Are they?I think it has more to do that it was supposed to be another drawn play by Vogel.Said it in the game thread and i will say it here too with a big ounce of hyperbole of course.Sometimes i wish we haven't got any time outs left and just be instinctive on our last play.We would get more.

3rdStrike
12-05-2012, 12:35 AM
It's been said several times in this thread, but this was Paul George's best game of the season. By far. This is what I want to see from Paul George, and this is what the Pacers need from Paul George if they are going to survive Granger's absence. 22 of his 25 shots were inside the arc, and did I mention he shot the ball 25 times? The rest of the team was struggling and he used his body, his height and his smarts to get his shots. Honestly, the fact that he shot a good percentage was just icing on the cake for me. He's got star offensive ability, and stars don't camp outside and go 0-for-5 in an entire game. Stars put the team on their backs.

I hope Vogel tells him to be our leading scorer from this point forward. West is good and all, but it's not fair to him to ask him to be the #1 guy.

Also, PG finally drained those fadeaways! Keep shooting.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 12:36 AM
Why are a lot of people getting mad over the George Hill David West final play? Of course Paul was really hot, but that play WON THE GAME in LA.

I'm not exactly mad about it. I just disagree with it.

No matter what we did in that play the Bulls would have the last shot. So, we needed a score to not lose with a 3. The best way to get a score was to involve PG in the offense. If PG got the ball in the left flank (where West was) then West's defender would be forced to help as they HAD to double PG. If they didn't double, PG would have made the shot. If they did double, West would be open in the high post (after a curl) or he could cut in the lane and get an open 8 footer.

I have no problem with West taking the last shot. I have no problem with the team running down the clock. But you have to get PG involved in order to secure West a better shot. That's what I wanted to see.

aamcguy
12-05-2012, 12:42 AM
I'm not exactly mad about it. I just disagree with it.

No matter what we did in that play the Bulls would have the last shot. So, we needed a score to not lose with a 3. The best way to get a score was to involve PG in the offense. If PG got the ball in the left flank (where West was) then West's defender would be forced to help as they HAD to double PG. If they didn't double, PG would have made the shot. If they did double, West would be open in the high post (after a curl) or he could cut in the lane and get an open 8 footer.

I have no problem with West taking the last shot. I have no problem with the team running down the clock. But you have to get PG involved in order to secure West a better shot. That's what I wanted to see.

I don't think Frank chose the play that would give us the best chance to score. He gave us the play that gave us the best chance to get a shot off without turning it over. He didn't want to see a PG mishandle turn into a Luol dunk on the other end.

Because it was the Bulls, if I were to run a play with PG it would be a 1-3 screen with about 6 seconds left on the clock so you could try to get the point guard switch and make sure George doesn't have to handle the ball for very long. The downside I see is that if you don't get the switch you want Deng probably denies the pass and you're stuck with a contested Hill jumper with his man able to move up the court on a runout.

So it was a safe play.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 12:46 AM
Nunti it's a combination man.You just can't give credit only to our D.They may have also missed some easy shots/baskets that another night would score with closed eyes.

We're 18 games into the season. We allow a far lower opponent FG% and a ridiculously lower opponent TS% than any other team in the rim. We allow the less points in the paint and the less fast break points. We mostly allow shots from 16-23 ft. There were some stats about it posted in the Pacers-Lakers post game thread. Look them up. I am also posting some other defensive rankings.

Basically, those rankings say that our D is pretty damn good. Are teams missing open shots against us? They sure do. But the open shots we give them are not easy ones. There is a reason why the 16-23 footer is considered a bad shot. Players hit it at a much lower percentage than any other shot.

Have we played teams at off nights? We surely have. Our stats could be inflated by some poor shooting nights of our opponents.

But 18 games into the season is past the point of coincidence.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 12:49 AM
I don't think Frank chose the play that would give us the best chance to score. He gave us the play that gave us the best chance to get a shot off without turning it over. He didn't want to see a PG mishandle turn into a Luol dunk on the other end.

Because it was the Bulls, if I were to run a play with PG it would be a 1-3 screen with about 6 seconds left on the clock so you could try to get the point guard switch and make sure George doesn't have to handle the ball for very long. The downside I see is that if you don't get the switch you want Deng probably denies the pass and you're stuck with a contested Hill jumper with his man able to move up the court on a runout.

So it was a safe play.

Well, I can certainly agree with this. That thought didn't cross my mind, to be honest.

Trust in Pacers D then? Why not? It's consistent at least.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 12:55 AM
Why are a lot of people getting mad over the George Hill David West final play? Of course Paul was really hot, but that play WON THE GAME in LA.

That play also lost the Pacers some games, good teams know how to stop it, they showed in half time all the close games finishes and the Pacers called the same play in almost every game they had, that telegraph last play call almost cost the Pacers the game.

boombaby1987
12-05-2012, 12:57 AM
Win means nothing if we lose to the Blazers.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 01:03 AM
Win means nothing if we lose to the Blazers.

Not true. The Blazers are not in our division. A win against the Bulls is far important than a win against the Blazers.

Of course, I'll gladly take as many Ws as we can ;)

boombaby1987
12-05-2012, 01:05 AM
Not true. The Blazers are not in our division. A win against the Bulls is far important than a win against the Blazers.

Of course, I'll gladly take as many Ws as we can ;)

I mean unless we literally tie records, it doesn't matter what the division record is.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 01:12 AM
I mean unless we literally tie records, it doesn't matter what the division record is.

Indiana, Chicago and Milwaukee are at exactly .500. We're 9 - 9 and they are 8 - 8.

Are we going to still be tied in the end of the season? I don't think so. But just to be sure, I'd like us to win in the tie breakers since I can easily see all 3 of us being very, very close at the end.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 01:13 AM
I don't know how somebody forgot to mention this..... Free Lance?

clownskull
12-05-2012, 01:14 AM
This is the first game that Paul George impressed me on offense. He shot very few threes. He hit several midrange shots. He got to the rim. He penetrated and dumped to other players for easy shots.

Until tonight, all I've seen is three point attempts and drives to the rim where he usually did not convert. Tonight's performance was something very different. It was great.

what i find refreshing is looking at the shot selection. he took a bunch of shots but this time- 50% or more weren't from downtown.
george finally played with some balls instead of just standing around on the perimeter playing posey-ball. whenever he gets into those bad habits- i expect frank to get on his backside and tell him to cut it out!!
pg attacking the rim?- i didn't think i would see it this year. i am glad that i did though.

ilive4sports
12-05-2012, 01:41 AM
I mean unless we literally tie records, it doesn't matter what the division record is.
no but it does matter that the bulls lost a game and we won it. Its a nice swing that could be helpful come season's end.

imawhat
12-05-2012, 01:58 AM
It's been said already but it deserves another mention.

That was a damn good game from Paul George. He scored 25 points before he made his first three.

That's the first time he's played a game with 'balls'. He was assertive, he seeked out contact, and he took advantage of his height. He could do that every night if he wanted to.

That was so relieving. I didn't think he had it in him.

That's easily our most important win. It's only one win, but it's the first time we've beat an opponent that was playing well. We really, really struggle against teams that execute and move well without the ball. This wasn't a bailout win where we just got hot from three. It was a slugfest and we won.

CJ Jones
12-05-2012, 02:09 AM
George 41 minutes
West 35
Hibs 34
Lance 38
Hill 37

That's more like it Frank. Maybe complaining on here does work :D. I hope he eventually hears the complaints about DJ and benches him too. He tried his best to throw the game away in the 4th. After Young came up with a nice steal and slowed it down (i.e. the smart play) DJ chucked up maybe the worst shot of the season, a contested 3 that wasn't even close. Right afterwards the Bulls when on a 9-2 run and quickly took the lead with DJ's man scoring 5 of those 9. We're nearly a quarter of the way thru the season, we can't wait for him to figure it out too much longer because when he's out there he's not making anyone better. I hope Lance gets the opportunity if DJ doesn't turn it around soon. We know the offense works better when he's on the floor, and he can definitely get more out of Tyler than anyone else. Plus Green needs more minutes anyway... make it happen Frank.

Very happy with the W, and it was nice to see Paul bounce back. The guy carried us and dominated an all star. Very impressive, tough (i said it) game by Paul tonight.

CJ Jones
12-05-2012, 02:11 AM
Free Lance!!!

docpaul
12-05-2012, 02:30 AM
It's been said already but it deserves another mention.

That was a damn good game from Paul George. He scored 25 points before he made his first three.

That's the first time he's played a game with 'balls'. He was assertive, he seeked out contact, and he took advantage of his height. He could do that every night if he wanted to.

That was so relieving. I didn't think he had it in him.

That's easily our most important win. It's only one win, but it's the first time we've beat an opponent that was playing well. We really, really struggle against teams that execute and move well without the ball. This wasn't a bailout win where we just got hot from three. It was a slugfest and we won.

Yeah, you start to think... PG might actually have some alpha dog in him. Some swagger even?

It suits him very well. :)

AesopRockOn
12-05-2012, 02:47 AM
Neil Funk: "Hibbert went straight up, I'll give him that," before continuing to believe that Deng was fouled on that play. The Bulls announcers are the worst part of the NBA.

In other news, the Bulls may have as ugly a style as we do. But we won because PG was hot from every spot on the floor. It wasn't clear if he was having his way with Deng, or fate was. Great win, road or not. This team needs this kind of pick me up.

Really wish Lance would have hit the free throw though. Gotta hit start getting to the top third of the league in that category if we're going to be as good as Seth says.

Goyle
12-05-2012, 02:59 AM
So awesome to see PG do this against Deng and a Thibodeau defense.

CableKC
12-05-2012, 04:05 AM
So awesome to see PG do this against Deng and a Thibodeau defense.
I have to agree here.......putting up 30+, shutting down and wearing out Deng and doing so against one of the best Defenses in the League is great.

Now...to be the fly in the soup.......let's see if PG can simply score as efficiently and consistently as he did this game ( and last season ) on a regular basis.

Before you jump on me and call me a 'hater', I'm not. I'm glad that PG got out of his slump....he was really the best Player on the floor....and we really needed it...especially with GH and BAMF running on fumes. We've him up and down on the scoring end all season long....I'm just saying that this Team will only be as good as it is consistent. It begins with the Starters and filters down to the 2nd unit.

As Trader Joe suggested....PG doesn't have to put up 30 a night....he just has to continue to do what he was doing tonight....attack the basket, show some confidence/swagger and ( most of all ) be more aggressive on the offensive end.

Doing this will allow him to be an effective and efficient scorer, just like he was last season. The same goes for Hibbert. Given our defense.....all we need is for all of the Starters to contribute in a meaningful manner every night.

D-BONE
12-05-2012, 06:55 AM
22 of his 25 shots were inside the arc, and did I mention he shot the ball 25 times? He's got star offensive ability, and stars don't camp outside and go 0-for-5 in an entire game. Stars put the team on their backs.

I hope Vogel tells him to be our leading scorer from this point forward. West is good and all, but it's not fair to him to ask him to be the #1 guy.



First part is what I find most important in PG's performance and most significant point you bring forward. It was mentioned elsewhere here, too, and I completely agree. Vogel et all apparently finally got the memo that there's nothing wrong with a mid-range jumper. Everything perimeter by our wings doesn't have to be threes. In fact, it better that there be a more equal distribution of mid to long two and three point attempts.

Second graph, I don't know. Yes, PG was fantastic offensively. Yes he carried us when we needed it. Personally, I still don't see him as a likely top tier offensive option on a team, or on this team with Granger out. Great defender with ability to be a solid offensive contributor. I still like West & Hill as offensive initiators, unless they are having an off night, and everyone else playing off them for the most part. Not to say anyone else never get a play run for them, that we don't ride the hot hand on a given night, or that our guys don't have option to freelance some. I just think that's how this team works best.

Apologies for the disagreement to the those who find silver lining in our bench unit, but seems to me it's not getting consistenly better. I continue to view Mahinmi as the best guy so far, but his weaknesses pointed out by Nuntius - bad hands, bad passing and (my addition) foul prone - drive me nuts because they keep him from having a consistently substantial game impact.

Young is a nice unexpected surprise, but bound to be inconsistent. Everyone else new or returning right now is maddeningly nondescript and/or flat out ineffective. There's a reason why the bench was "benched" so much last night. They just aren't good enough to keep us close right now against a decent team. However, we need something or somebody to step up. Oh, the agony.

Sparhawk
12-05-2012, 07:38 AM
Nice win. Pretty ugly game, but then they have all been ugly. Good to finally get a win against a team with a record above 0.500.

Says something about our defense when only 1 player on offense could do anything and come away with a win.

15th parallel
12-05-2012, 07:56 AM
Just want to "special mention" the West to Lance play in the final seconds of the game. That is what I talked about in the other thread. They should draw up more plays for Lance to cut inside and try to make some backdoor plays. With his speed, build and ability to finish, that will surely be a very good percentage shot especially when they can't make anything from the perimeter. And with good passers in Hibbert and West, it shouldn't be a problem with delivering the ball to a cutting player.

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 08:24 AM
We know PG really has the tools to be an elite scorer. What he really needs is consistency.

Actually, he needs something else: better shot selection and getting to the rim. It finally happened last night.

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 08:31 AM
Has anyone noticed how many elite passes David West is making? This guy is showing us more and more this year.

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 08:38 AM
I don't know how somebody forgot to mention this..... Free Lance?

Thankfully, we didn't need to uncage him last night. But that's the FIRST time PG has stepped up to erase the need.

Anthem
12-05-2012, 09:05 AM
I'm just not sure Paul consistently has the skills to drive to the basket. I'm really happy with where he is right now. i don't ever see him cracking 18pgg, I think that is his absolute ceiling, but if he proves me wrong, then I will be thrilled, because I already really like what he gives us.
Honest question here, not picking a fight.

If he can drive against Deng, who won't he be able to drive against? Deng's no slouch defending the ball.

Anthem
12-05-2012, 09:05 AM
1) [Ian] has bad hands. Unfortunately, that's a great weakness for a big. If he had good hands I firmly believe that he could be a starter on a team. Not a great starter but better than the likes of Sheldon Williams (just an example as I actually like Sheldon).
And yet he did a great job disrupting the passing lanes tonight, with at least one steal and a couple of deflections. I said to my screen "What, NOW you've got good hands?"

Anthem
12-05-2012, 09:06 AM
I don't know how somebody forgot to mention this..... Free Lance?
You joke, but if Sam Young didn't take that nasty fall I bet Lance gets subbed out at the end.

Anthem
12-05-2012, 09:08 AM
Just want to "special mention" the West to Lance play in the final seconds of the game.
I thought there were several times where the starters made it a special point to get it to Lance. DWest on the fast break, Paul George on the oop (that was a pass, right?), and so on.

I didn't think (and don't think) they were freezing Lance out, but I do think they're intentionally looking for him now. Quinn talked about it briefly, if I was understanding him correctly.

I did like one point where DJ tried to take the ball from Paul George, and Paul shook him off and went and scored.

pacers_heath
12-05-2012, 09:58 AM
Guys what a great game but honestly I'm a little concerned...









Have the pacers been taking those pills again? Kudos to DJ Augustin for having the courage to just say no

Unclebuck
12-05-2012, 10:00 AM
To me this was the most enjoyable game of the season. I just love tough defensive battles.

Johanvil
12-05-2012, 10:01 AM
Some of the baskets Paul George scored yesterday were out of this world.Off balance,almost ready to fall down,hands all over his face and arms and still made it and won the foul too.Great great night by Paul.Led the team by example.
Can we get once again a winning record tonight?Please?

Dr. Awesome
12-05-2012, 10:02 AM
I don't know if anyone else noticed, but I'm pretty sure the Pacers went from being out of the playoffs, to the 4th seed with this game.

Eleazar
12-05-2012, 10:13 AM
And yet he did a great job disrupting the passing lanes tonight, with at least one steal and a couple of deflections. I said to my screen "What, NOW you've got good hands?"

Haha, I don't think that is quite what people mean when they say he has bad hands. I think it is more of he has butter fingers. Half the passes he receives he bobbles,and if his arm is slightly tapped he losses the ball.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 10:13 AM
Nice win. Pretty ugly game, but then they have all been ugly. Good to finally get a win against a team with a record above 0.500.


Oh, come on now. The Lakers were only 1/2 a game behind the Bulls when we played them. Do they not count as a team above .500? If they don't, it's because we knocked them under .500.

It's still too early in the season to talk about over and under .500 for those 9 teams that around the .500 mark.

15th parallel
12-05-2012, 10:20 AM
I thought there were several times where the starters made it a special point to get it to Lance. DWest on the fast break, Paul George on the oop (that was a pass, right?), and so on.

I didn't think (and don't think) they were freezing Lance out, but I do think they're intentionally looking for him now. Quinn talked about it briefly, if I was understanding him correctly.

I did like one point where DJ tried to take the ball from Paul George, and Paul shook him off and went and scored.

I'm not thinking that Lance is being frozen out. I just think that it's a play that's not been utilized up until today. It's much better to have him cut and move around than camp outside for a 3pter. It also opens up space for Roy and West to operate once the defense gets attentive to a moving player.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 10:21 AM
And yet he did a great job disrupting the passing lanes tonight, with at least one steal and a couple of deflections. I said to my screen "What, NOW you've got good hands?"

True. He doesn't have what one would call stone hands exactly but he's quite incosistent with them :laugh:

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 10:23 AM
I'm not thinking that Lance is being frozen out. I just think that it's a play that's not been utilized up until today. It's much better to have him cut and move around than camp outside for a 3pter. It also opens up space for Roy and West to operate once the defense gets attentive to a moving player.

It IS interesting to wonder why we haven't seen that play until the very last minute in a close game with our biggest rival.

Since86
12-05-2012, 10:24 AM
Saw a tweet this morning saying last night was the 9th game that the Pacers have held their opponents to under 40% shooting. Impressive 50% clip.

docpaul
12-05-2012, 10:26 AM
Saw a tweet this morning saying last night was the 9th game that the Pacers have held their opponents to under 40% shooting. Impressive 50% clip.

I love watching the interior defense.

To me, what's particularly notable about the defense last night is that there were at least 4-5 big time mental mistakes that led to incredibly easy Chicago baskets. They *still* kept them under 40% despite this.

docpaul
12-05-2012, 10:31 AM
Did you all see the sequence on Fox Sports MW when Robinson was getting hyped up and all frothing at the mouth? Spit flying everywhere, etc?

I wish I could get a .GIF of that.

Part of me laughed at how silly he looked, and part of me wished our team had a person like that who could fire everyone up. Noone in our starting 5 has that kind of personality. Hill occasionally goes there, but he's a quiet type.

So poetic though that he pretty much got them back into the game, and also lost it for them as well.

15th parallel
12-05-2012, 10:37 AM
It IS interesting to wonder why we haven't seen that play until the very last minute in a close game with our biggest rival.

A secret weapon perhaps? :D

But it's a good thing that they tried that one instead of those poorly-executed shot that we commonly see that they do at the end of games. And good recognition by West.

Unclebuck
12-05-2012, 10:43 AM
Saw a tweet this morning saying last night was the 9th game that the Pacers have held their opponents to under 40% shooting. Impressive 50% clip.

Pacers are by a wide margin the best defensive opponents FG % team in the league. Pacers opponents shoot .406 - next closest team is OKC at .424. That is really a wide gap.


Pacers are third in opponents 3 point shooting %. behind only the Bulls and the Spurs.

Pacers are second in the NBA in defensive rebounding %.

Pacers are 3rd in blocked shots.

Only thing we don't do well defensively is create turnovers and get steals. But that tells me we are playing a very solid team oriented defense. We aren't gambling, going for steals, we are playing solid defense, making the other team miss and rebounding well. That type of defense is good against all teams. (our biggest weakness is the pick and rolls that draw Hibbert away from the basket. The teams that do well in that area give us problems.

With all the concern about the offense and our bench, I sort of took for granted our defense, but I really watched it last night and it is really good.

For many of you who didn't like some of the gimmicky defensives of the past, this is a no-gimmick defense.

Since86
12-05-2012, 10:47 AM
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/12/05/pacers-hibbert-busts-deng-bulls-late-with-law-of-verticality/

Reading how Bulls, of all teams, ***** about phsyicality makes me smile.

Deng was behind the basket, btw. That's something that hasn't really been said. PG gambled, but they were so flat on the baseline, Deng had no where to deliever the ball.

15th parallel
12-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Pacers are by a wide margin the best defensive opponents FG % team in the league. Pacers opponents shoot .406 - next closest team is OKC at .424. That is really a wide gap.


Pacers are third in opponents 3 point shooting %. behind only the Bulls and the Spurs.

Pacers are second in the NBA in defensive rebounding %.

Pacers are 3rd in blocked shots.

Only thing we don't do well defensively is create turnovers and get steals. But that tells me we are playing a very solid team oriented defense. We aren't gambling, going for steals, we are playing solid defense, making the other team miss and rebounding well. That type of defense is good against all teams. (our biggest weakness is the pick and rolls that draw Hibbert away from the basket. The teams that do well in that area give us problems.

With all the concern about the offense and our bench, I sort of took for granted our defense, but I really watched it last night and it is really good.

For many of you who didn't like some of the gimmicky defensives of the past, this is a no-gimmick defense.

The players and the coaching staff really deserve the credit for this. Many were asking for this team to play defense before, and right now they're delivering hard-nosed defense night-in, night-out. The toughest defense in the NBA is keeping this team afloat despite the terrible offense.

Major Cold
12-05-2012, 11:19 AM
I have had it with DJ. The dude nearly lost this game in the second half. I can't believe I am going to say this......I miss AJ.

How about trading him to Utah for Earl Watson?

Major Cold
12-05-2012, 11:24 AM
And Hibbert bailed Vogel out. There is no reason why Paul George was not given the ball to put us up 2 possesions. Instead we go to a cold tandem of Hill and West. I think Vogel over thinks it sometimes.

Unclebuck
12-05-2012, 11:36 AM
The players and the coaching staff really deserve the credit for this. Many were asking for this team to play defense before, and right now they're delivering hard-nosed defense night-in, night-out. The toughest defense in the NBA is keeping this team afloat despite the terrible offense.

I doubt there is a way to track the difference between the starters defense and the bench - I would love to know just how much the defense drops off when the bench comes in. Or do we think the offense is the major problem with the bench.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 11:47 AM
I doubt there is a way to track the difference between the starters defense and the bench - I would love to know just how much the defense drops off when the bench comes in. Or do we think the offense is the major problem with the bench.

The second unit is decent defensively. Ian can protect the rim. He's not as good as Roy but he's adequate. On the other hand, Ian is the better PnR defender. Hansbrough is playing decent D this season. He's holding his own. Young is a good wing defender. If we don't force him to defend PFs he's always a positive on that side of the floor. Green has some defensive lapses but honestly he is not a bad defender. He is a good on-ball defender and can secure defesive boards. He's also long and helps closing out or altering shots (and passing lanes). Augustin is the main problem defensively. He tries to get through most screens (a good thing) but always ends up getting eaten up because he is not strong enough to get through the screen quickly or quick enough to recover.

But defensively the second unit is decent. It's better than last year's second unit. It's just that offensively we get the minimal production possible.

vnzla81
12-05-2012, 11:49 AM
And Hibbert bailed Vogel out. There is no reason why Paul George was not given the ball to put us up 2 possesions. Instead we go to a cold tandem of Hill and West. I think Vogel over thinks it sometimes.

No doubt, the funny part is that you could see Vogel calling that play and the guys were just like "yeah we know it" :laugh:

That play works against crappy teams but teams that have good coaching a good defense they know how to stop it, Vogel needs to mix it up.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
12-05-2012, 11:54 AM
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/12/05/pacers-hibbert-busts-deng-bulls-late-with-law-of-verticality/

Reading how Bulls, of all teams, ***** about phsyicality makes me smile.

Deng was behind the basket, btw. That's something that hasn't really been said. PG gambled, but they were so flat on the baseline, Deng had no where to deliever the ball.

Interesting quote from that article:


“Nah, I don’t take charges,” Hibbert said. “I used to, but [former Pacers big man] Jeff Foster told me it messed his back up and shaved a couple years off his career. So nah, I’m a 7-footer, I’m going to try to block a shot at the rim.”

Foster did take a TON of charges in his career. He was probably one of the best in the league at it.

15th parallel
12-05-2012, 11:56 AM
I doubt there is a way to track the difference between the starters defense and the bench - I would love to know just how much the defense drops off when the bench comes in. Or do we think the offense is the major problem with the bench.

I think there's not much of a drop-off defensively. Tyler has improved. Ian makes a good job defending the rim, Green is pretty decent and Young really pressures his guard with his physical style. the problem probably is DJ but the 2nd unit as a 5-man team really plays defense better than expected. They just can't make a bucket when they play together. It's just how I see it though, maybe some stats can describe a better picture of starter vs. bench defense.

Pacergeek
12-05-2012, 11:56 AM
One thing we all learned from last night...Lance Stephenson is clutch!!

Mr.ThunderMakeR
12-05-2012, 11:57 AM
George 41 minutes
West 35
Hibs 34
Lance 38
Hill 37

I hope PG can play like he did last night more consistently going forward. But I fully expect him to play a dud tonight against the Blazers. He looked exhausted out there at the end.

Trader Joe
12-05-2012, 12:09 PM
Why are a lot of people getting mad over the George Hill David West final play? Of course Paul was really hot, but that play WON THE GAME in LA.

It's actually already won two games this season.

Trader Joe
12-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Honest question here, not picking a fight.

If he can drive against Deng, who won't he be able to drive against? Deng's no slouch defending the ball.

I need to see a pattern emerge. Remember Danny scoring 20 ppg over the 5 game series in 2011? That's what I need to see from Paul, multiple games. Any game with what happens in that game can produce a good result. Right now I think if Paul played 10 games against the Bulls, Deng would probbaly slow him down a lot of the time.

Like I said I'm thrilled with where Paul is right now, he's what I thought he would be and that is a good thing.

Anthem
12-05-2012, 12:29 PM
One thing we all learned from last night...Lance Stephenson is clutch!!
Actually, Lance missed a FT to ice it with seconds left in the game.

I like Lance, I'm just sayin'.

Anthem
12-05-2012, 12:30 PM
I need to see a pattern emerge. Remember Danny scoring 20 ppg over the 5 game series in 2011? That's what I need to see from Paul, multiple games. Any game with what happens in that game can produce a good result. Right now I think if Paul played 10 games against the Bulls, Deng would probbaly slow him down a lot of the time.

Like I said I'm thrilled with where Paul is right now, he's what I thought he would be and that is a good thing.
I think Paul fell in love with his shooting this season and forgot to really focus on driving the ball. I agree that we'll just need to watch it develop, but if you can do it against Deng and the Bulls then you should be able to do it against anybody.

CableKC
12-05-2012, 12:39 PM
Pacers are by a wide margin the best defensive opponents FG % team in the league. Pacers opponents shoot .406 - next closest team is OKC at .424. That is really a wide gap.


Pacers are third in opponents 3 point shooting %. behind only the Bulls and the Spurs.

Pacers are second in the NBA in defensive rebounding %.

Pacers are 3rd in blocked shots.

Only thing we don't do well defensively is create turnovers and get steals. But that tells me we are playing a very solid team oriented defense. We aren't gambling, going for steals, we are playing solid defense, making the other team miss and rebounding well. That type of defense is good against all teams. (our biggest weakness is the pick and rolls that draw Hibbert away from the basket. The teams that do well in that area give us problems.

With all the concern about the offense and our bench, I sort of took for granted our defense, but I really watched it last night and it is really good.

For many of you who didn't like some of the gimmicky defensives of the past, this is a no-gimmick defense.
Since you pay more attention to the defense than I do...I'll ask you.....what is the difference in the defense last year compared to this year?

Other than Mahinmi and Young ( which makes a difference ), what are we doing now that we didn't do before?

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 12:44 PM
Actually, Lance missed a FT to ice it with seconds left in the game.

I like Lance, I'm just sayin'.

Not quite. We would have gone up by 3. Not quite icing it.

But your larger point is well taken. Lance blew a chance to make mega statement rather than a solid statement.

CableKC
12-05-2012, 12:58 PM
I have had it with DJ. The dude nearly lost this game in the second half. I can't believe I am going to say this......I miss AJ.

How about trading him to Utah for Earl Watson?
How about freeing Lance or ( even ) Ben :shrug:

imawhat
12-05-2012, 12:59 PM
(our biggest weakness is the pick and rolls that draw Hibbert away from the basket. The teams that do well in that area give us problems.

Or West. That's what sunk us in the Miami series. It's our defensive Achilles.

Eleazar
12-05-2012, 01:10 PM
Since you pay more attention to the defense than I do...I'll ask you.....what is the difference in the defense last year compared to this year?

Other than Mahinmi and Young ( which makes a difference ), what are we doing now that we didn't do before?

We are better against the pick and roll, still not good mind you, and the refs are more lenient in the paint this year.

Oh also, George is better at chasing people around the court, and getting through screens.

aamcguy
12-05-2012, 01:11 PM
No doubt, the funny part is that you could see Vogel calling that play and the guys were just like "yeah we know it" :laugh:

That play works against crappy teams but teams that have good coaching a good defense they know how to stop it, Vogel needs to mix it up.

The thing is, they didn't stop it. We got an open look, West just missed.

Unclebuck
12-05-2012, 02:25 PM
Since you pay more attention to the defense than I do...I'll ask you.....what is the difference in the defense last year compared to this year?

Other than Mahinmi and Young ( which makes a difference ), what are we doing now that we didn't do before?


George Hill replacing Collison has made a huge difference. West is also better - he was coming off knee surgery. Roy is better too, and Paul George is more experienced and a little better especially team wise.

But Hill replacing Collison is the big difference.

Ace E.Anderson
12-05-2012, 02:58 PM
It's actually already won two games this season.

It got us a good look this game as well, David just missed it

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 03:17 PM
George Hill replacing Collison has made a huge difference. West is also better - he was coming off knee surgery. Roy is better too, and Paul George is more experienced and a little better especially team wise.

But Hill replacing Collison is the big difference.

I don't think that this is the reason since we didn't replace Collison with Hill. Hill started some late season games (when DC when injured) and also started in the playoffs.

We replaced DC with Augustin. And I don't believe that this is a net gain.

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 03:18 PM
It got us a good look this game as well, David just missed it

I don't think West from just inside the 3 point line is all that great a percentage shot.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 03:20 PM
So, I was reading the Bulls forum over RealGM (I tend to read the game threads of our opponents a lot) and they said some interesting things.

And here's some quotes that I found the most interesting:





Someone as multifaceted as Luol isn't going to make 6 million, his value in this league is so much higher than that. It's insane to bring up the number 6 million considering everything this guy does.

Tell me what he does other than play good defense, board well, and use the ugliest, not-even-efficient offensive arsenal in the league.

Name 10 SF better than Deng right now.


People who are definitely better than Deng:
LeBron
Durant
Melo
Pierce
Gay
Granger
Iggy



People who are definitely better than Deng:

Gay
Iggy


:lol:

Nope.

http://i.imgur.com/sQeHT.png

And with the money they make, Deng no doubt.

PS: Basically, a lot of them were angry towards Deng for not being a good enough offensive player to take the team on his back. They blamed him a lot (although, they blamed Boozer more). Well, it's always revealing to see how they see our players in regards to their own after a loss.

Does it ring any bell? ;)

Eleazar
12-05-2012, 03:26 PM
Chicago fans won't even debate that Deng is better than Granger, yet Granger is constantly ranked below Iggy, Deng, and Gay by national writers.

Unclebuck
12-05-2012, 03:32 PM
I don't think that this is the reason since we didn't replace Collison with Hill. Hill started some late season games (when DC when injured) and also started in the playoffs.

We replaced DC with Augustin. And I don't believe that this is a net gain.

Collison started 56 games and missed only 6 games.

Hill started only 9 games and missed a total of 16.

so I stand by my earlier comments.

Nuntius
12-05-2012, 03:43 PM
Collison started 56 games and missed only 6 games.

Hill started only 9 games and missed a total of 16.

so I stand by my earlier comments.

I can certainly agree with this but our defense didn't really improve in the playoffs when Hill was the starter. I just believe that it's deeper than that.

Unclebuck
12-05-2012, 03:53 PM
I can certainly agree with this but our defense didn't really improve in the playoffs when Hill was the starter. I just believe that it's deeper than that.

Well certainly that isn't the only reason. Also helps a lot that the players (or at least 4 out of 5 starters) are more familar with the system and playing with each other - that makes a big difference also.

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 04:11 PM
I guess that assistant coach over defense needs to get more credit.

(Exhibit A: the fact I can't remember his name.)

Unclebuck
12-05-2012, 04:22 PM
I guess that assistant coach over defense needs to get more credit.

(Exhibit A: the fact I can't remember his name.)

Isn't it Dan Burke?

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 04:56 PM
Isn't it Dan Burke?

I think its Boylen.

CableKC
12-05-2012, 05:12 PM
George Hill replacing Collison has made a huge difference. West is also better - he was coming off knee surgery. Roy is better too, and Paul George is more experienced and a little better especially team wise.

But Hill replacing Collison is the big difference.
Yeah...but we also added DJ to equation :banghead:

Outside of the Players...are we doing anything differently?

I recall that there were several games where the Wing Players would literally swarm the guy with ball.....same thing when anybody gets into the paint. All I see is our super-long Players guarding the opposing Team Players with their hands in the air...not jumping or leaving the ground....essentially "blocking out the sun" like trees in a forest.

CJ Jones
12-05-2012, 07:16 PM
Just want to "special mention" the West to Lance play in the final seconds of the game. That is what I talked about in the other thread. They should draw up more plays for Lance to cut inside and try to make some backdoor plays. With his speed, build and ability to finish, that will surely be a very good percentage shot especially when they can't make anything from the perimeter. And with good passers in Hibbert and West, it shouldn't be a problem with delivering the ball to a cutting player.

All the players on the floor and bench were really pumped on that play. I'm sure guys still get annoyed by Lance, hell I do sometimes, but you can tell they really root for him (especially West). I think he's earned their respect with his hard work and passion for the game. They kinda treat him like a little brother. They ride him when he does something dumb, but it's because they recognize he can play and help them win.


Honest question here, not picking a fight.

If he can drive against Deng, who won't he be able to drive against? Deng's no slouch defending the ball.

He wasn't doing a whole lot of driving. A lot of his shots came off a couple dribbles and then a pull up from mid range, a shot he can get up over anybody. He worked on that with the ball handling coach this off season. That shot should be his bread and butter until he gets stronger with the ball.


No doubt, the funny part is that you could see Vogel calling that play and the guys were just like "yeah we know it" :laugh:

That play works against crappy teams but teams that have good coaching a good defense they know how to stop it, Vogel needs to mix it up.

If he's gonna use the same play he could at least throw in a different option. Doing the same fake pick over and over isn't gonna continue to work.


I hope PG can play like he did last night more consistently going forward. But I fully expect him to play a dud tonight against the Blazers. He looked exhausted out there at the end.

He's only 22 he'll be fine. If he struggles I doubt it will be because he's tired. A lot of players play close to 40 minutes a night, and with the bench struggling I think it's a good idea to play our starters more minutes.

TinManJoshua
12-05-2012, 07:26 PM
If he's gonna use the same play he could at least throw in a different option. Doing the same fake pick over and over isn't gonna continue to work.


The play runs 5 options. Option one was what beat L.A., option 2 is West off the slip. Option 3 is Paul coming off his run(which is intended to get his guard lost in the meat of the play to get him an open outside look) which we saw finish the first half of game 2 vs. San Antonio. Option 4 is Lance in the corner, only if his guard shades off to help at the rim. Option 5 is Hibbert floating to the basket if his guard gets pulled to the rim by G3.

These options are weighted as listed. 1 being most desired result, 5 being least due to the difficulty of the pass required.