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View Full Version : Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance



McKeyFan
12-03-2012, 08:18 AM
In our last game, Lance shot 3-4, scored 8 points, 4 rebounds, and had 4 assists and one turnover. I think everything but one rebound and the turnover came in the first half.

After the turnover in the second half, Vogel sat Lance with over five minutes left in the third. He never returned.

This is no way to treat a player, especially one that is performing well. I don't like the head games it may be causing.

This is at least the second game where it seems like Lance gets benched because Paul George is having an absolutely lousy game. I guess Vogel feels the need to punish something but can't touch the golden child.

Personally, I'm ready to see Lance moved to the second unit. Not because he isn't better than Green and Young. He clearly is. But because Lance has some serious skills and needs to be developing them, and he can't do it right now when Vogel has decreed that George Hill will run all pick and rolls and Lance will stand in the corner. Bad use of resources, Frank.

Have Lance run the pick and roll while George Hill is on the bench. Free Lance. Let him develop his unique offensive game that is so needed for this team. Plus, Lance is going to the second unit anyway when Granger returns. (Certainly not the golden one, regardless of how bad he plays.) So Lance and the second unit might as well get used to each other.

Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about. I actually hope so; otherwise I have to conclude that Vogel is not that bright or has some axe to grind.

Sparhawk
12-03-2012, 09:23 AM
Lance should be with the starters, but he should definitely be more involved. Vogel is just not doing a good job with the rotations or how he is utilizing players that are out there. Force feeding Roy. How about we stop till he starts hitting shots consistently. Sam Young and DJ putting up way too many shots. DJ taking the last shot to end a quarter? Who thinks that is smart? Relegating Lance to sit in a corner when he's only been the most efficient shooter on the team outside West.

Lance should be the primary ball handler cause he's at his best when he can create for himself and others. He had 8pts and 3 assists in the first quarter...about 8 min of play. Holy crap that was awesome. Hill is more of a scorer. How about Lance utilizes his handles and ability to get into the lane to set up players. Probably gets Hibbert easier looks. He can set up Hill to score more. The offense flows much more fluid when Lance is more involved. I see it. I think a lot of you see it. Not sure why Vogel doesn't see it. Just makes me think he would just rather not play Lance at all.

Then he turned completely invisible after the 1st quarter. Maybe that's on Lance to step up more, but I'd say that is more by design. Lance didn't just have a TO, but I think he was lazy on D for consecutive possessions so Vogel pulled him.

I love how everyone else on the team can play through bonehead mistakes. Green had something like 2 TOs in a matter of minutes and yet he stayed out there. The short leash on Lance, but nothing for any other player on the team is a complete joke. Especially when he's been playing more good than bad. I do think Lance needs to focus on the defense end more, and keep his focus. He'll lose focus for a short spurt and then Vogel sits him the rest of the way. I kinda see why Vogel would sit him, but he has clearly played way better than it has ever been. Sometimes you just need to let someone play through it in order for them to grow.

Eleazar
12-03-2012, 10:30 AM
Lance should be the primary ball handler cause he's at his best when he can create for himself and others. He had 8pts and 3 assists in the first quarter...about 8 min of play. Holy crap that was awesome. Hill is more of a scorer.

He scored all but maybe two because someone else created for him. He scored and got assists because of ball movement, not because he was creating for himself or others, at least not anymore than anyone else.

Tom White
12-03-2012, 10:36 AM
I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.

Goyle
12-03-2012, 11:17 AM
I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.

Lance is hardly in the right place on offense and the guys need to tell him where to be basically every time down the court. I don't see what people see when they think he should be the starting PG. He can create for others with his penetration but in no way would he be capable of running an actual offense. But none of our wings provide the spark he does and we need to see what we have in him NOW before Granger gets back and he gets a permanent case of standing-in-a-corneritis. He needs the ball more and we should give him a shot at playing like Reke, Harden, Manu - ball dominant SGs.

Hicks
12-03-2012, 11:51 AM
I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.

I'm with you. I don't know specifically what it is, but I know the guy has had a lot of maturity issues in the past (from before the draft and during his earlier time here as well), and I don't believe he is considered to be particularly smart, either, and from watching him during the seasons and in summer league, he seems to wear his emotions on his sleeve and run his mouth, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that he has a short leash to help keep him in check and humble.

It's a huge blessing we have Clark Kellogg around to mentor him. I think this is a case of people going wide-eyed over his best qualities and letting that blind them to the rest of the picture regarding this guy.

I think Lance is just where he should be right now. He's playing with the starters, and that makes him the 5th best player on the floor, his talents complement the others, and he's not left out there too long too soon. Eventually he'll get more burn if he's earned it, but considering his past issues I'm not the least bit upset at Frank taking it slow.

Eleazar
12-03-2012, 12:42 PM
I'm with you. I don't know specifically what it is, but I know the guy has had a lot of maturity issues in the past (from before the draft and during his earlier time here as well), and I don't believe he is considered to be particularly smart, either, and from watching him during the seasons and in summer league, he seems to wear his emotions on his sleeve and run his mouth, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that he has a short leash to help keep him in check and humble.

It's a huge blessing we have Clark Kellogg around to mentor him. I think this is a case of people going wide-eyed over his best qualities and letting that blind them to the rest of the picture regarding this guy.

I think Lance is just where he should be right now. He's playing with the starters, and that makes him the 5th best player on the floor, his talents complement the others, and he's not left out there too long too soon. Eventually he'll get more burn if he's earned it, but considering his past issues I'm not the least bit upset at Frank taking it slow.

Agreed, the only drastic change I would like to see is make him the back-up PG. I would also like Frank to test out playing Hibbert and Mahinmi at the same time it is a mismatch waiting to happen when playing against shorter non-stretch 4s power forwards, but I think Frank is too slow to change to try either until Granger comes back.

Hicks
12-03-2012, 12:45 PM
I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.

As for changing the bench, once Danny comes back, it's tricky because I really don't want Lance at the 1, yet I wish we could do better than DJ, Green, and Tyler. I'm open to trying Ben/Lance/Sam/Jeff/Ian, but I'm just not sure Ben or Jeff is going to bring more than DJ or Tyler.

Eleazar
12-03-2012, 12:47 PM
I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.

Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.

Major Cold
12-03-2012, 12:49 PM
His defensive rotations on defense are making Tyler look adept. It wasn't his offense, it was his off the ball rotations. When the pnr is applied our opposite wing is suppose to crash the paint. He is not doing that. At all. You all seem to think that the pnr roll problems are solely on Hill and Roy. And that is not the case. pnr defense is on the entire team.

Hicks
12-03-2012, 12:49 PM
Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.

Yeah, I hear that.

It's too bad he seems like a headcase because I'd otherwise love to pick up Delonte West to play at the backup 1.

xIndyFan
12-03-2012, 12:58 PM
Yeah, I hear that.

It's too bad he seems like a headcase because I'd otherwise love to pick up Delonte West to play at the backup 1.

true, true, but if Delonte West was not a headcase, he would have a job already someplace else. The guy can play.

McKeyFan
12-03-2012, 12:59 PM
Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.

Maybe its just semantics. I'm not as concerned about who the "point guard" is as who is running the pick and roll. If some point guard needs to bring the ball up and pass it to Lance, than fine, although using DJ in this way simply hurts your defense and perhaps unnecessarily. But Lance is the second best player on our team (if not the best) for running the pick and roll. Let's put the ball in his hands and utilize him.

McKeyFan
12-03-2012, 01:05 PM
I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault.

Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about.


I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing.

Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about.

Did you read my entire post?

Trophy
12-03-2012, 01:14 PM
Lance is still learning. He's young and will have his off nights. You can't blame Vogel for that and then he would be blamed if he kept giving him the ball and Lance continued to be in a slump.

Lance is letting the game come to him. He looked better against the Warriors and hopefully he'll break out of the scoring slump.

McKeyFan
12-03-2012, 01:20 PM
Lance is still learning. He's young and will have his off nights. You can't blame Vogel for that and then he would be blamed if he kept giving him the ball and Lance continued to be in a slump.

Lance is letting the game come to him. He looked better against the Warriors and hopefully he'll break out of the scoring slump.
Slump? There's no slump.

It's just whether he gets the ball or not.

Man, it seems like people get his performance confused with Paul George.

sportfireman
12-03-2012, 01:23 PM
Lance is still learning. He's young and will have his off nights. You can't blame Vogel for that and then he would be blamed if he kept giving him the ball and Lance continued to be in a slump.

Lance is letting the game come to him. He looked better against the Warriors and hopefully he'll break out of the scoring slump.

Well last game he didnt play much after shooting 3/4 and 8 points game. Slump is when you're getting a chance to score and play.... which at this point he is not.

Tom White
12-03-2012, 02:20 PM
Did you read my entire post?

Yes, I did. But it wasn't a case of my wanting to single you out. That wasn't my intention at all. It was just a response to the number of threads that have everyone from the coaches to management being co-conspirators in some grand scheme to make sure Lance fails. I'm sure you've read them too.

Bball
12-03-2012, 04:02 PM
We know Lance had at least 1 supporter in the FO. That supporter is now gone. I'm sure that means something... but I'm not sure what...

AesopRockOn
12-03-2012, 05:00 PM
I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.

Eleazar
12-03-2012, 05:02 PM
We know Lance had at least 1 supporter in the FO. That supporter is now gone. I'm sure that means something... but I'm not sure what...

That means nothing, he is getting more playing time than ever before. The truth is simple. He has improved greatly, but he really isn't ready to be a full time starter (none of our bench is). He also has some bad habits that have consistently resulted in bad fouls, or easy high percentage baskets. He is getting there, but it isn't going to happen overnight. I don't think Vogel has a short leash on Lance at all, but it is more that he views Lance as more of a situational player. If the team needs better wing defense I would expect his minutes to decline in favor of Young. Which is probably Young played as many minutes as Lance. Agree or disagree with that decision, but I think that is a much more likely scenario when the other team is shooting as well as the Warriors were at times, than Vogel having him on a very short leash or that there is some conspiracy against him now that Bird is gone.

This isn't to say that Vogel doesn't have him on a shorter leash than others, but from my point of view this seems to only happen when Lance starts to get overly emotional and frustrated.

McKeyFan
12-03-2012, 07:20 PM
I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.
I'm not thanking this because I don't agree, but I did want to acknowledge that I think it's a valid position to take.

CableKC
12-03-2012, 08:16 PM
I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.

As for changing the bench, once Danny comes back, it's tricky because I really don't want Lance at the 1, yet I wish we could do better than DJ, Green, and Tyler. I'm open to trying Ben/Lance/Sam/Jeff/Ian, but I'm just not sure Ben or Jeff is going to bring more than DJ or Tyler.
I don't think that Lance is a true PG ( like DJ is ). I agree with most people that he is more of a ball-dominant SG that is much better at creating than DJ is. This means that he has to have the ball in his hands in order to be more effective....which would ultimately mean that he has to be the Backup PG when he's on the floor.

Having DJ and Lance on the floor at the same time would automatically make Lance the same type of Player that he is now when he starts.....standing at the 3pt line waiting for someone to pass to him. I am more inclined to believe that our bench would end up being DJ/Lance/Green/Hansbrough/Mahinmi when Granger returns....but I honestly would prefer Lance/Green/Young/Hansbrough/Mahinmi. Having Lance as the ONLY guy that would be running the point would be the only way to really make him IMHO more effective. Having him stand at the 3pt line waiting for a pass is useless.

CJ Jones
12-03-2012, 08:57 PM
. [B]You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.

You must be too young to remember Austin Croshere, Jonathan Bender, and Roy Hibbert.

CableKC
12-03-2012, 09:07 PM
I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.
I agree with you...I have no problem letting him grow into that role....the problem is that we have 4.5 months to evaluate whether this is a role that he should be taking on. This very question should have been asked and answered last season or even the season before than....not the season before his contract is up.

At this point....given how DJ is doing at the point.....I am more inclined to throw Lance into the deep end of the pool now just to see if he can sink or swim as the Backup PG......rather than not FULLY know whether he can do it or not....and then sign him to a long term contract and HOPE that he figures it out.

The reality is that we no longer have the luxury of letting him "marinate", the FO has 4.5 months to evaluate whether him. The Coaching Staff either has to "stick him in the oven" to see if he turns out to be "Angus Steak" or leave him in the fridge and see if we've overpaid for "Hamburger".

Eleazar
12-03-2012, 11:12 PM
I agree with you...I have no problem letting him grow into that role....the problem is that we have 4.5 months to evaluate whether this is a role that he should be taking on. This very question should have been asked and answered last season or even the season before than....not the season before his contract is up.

At this point....given how DJ is doing at the point.....I am more inclined to throw Lance into the deep end of the pool now just to see if he can sink or swim as the Backup PG......rather than not FULLY know whether he can do it or not....and then sign him to a long term contract and HOPE that he figures it out.

The reality is that we no longer have the luxury of letting him "marinate", the FO has 4.5 months to evaluate whether him. The Coaching Staff either has to "stick him in the oven" to see if he turns out to be "Angus Steak" or leave him in the fridge and see if we've overpaid for "Hamburger".

Lance has one more year on his contract at below $1 million. We got time. Also if we would have "asked" last season or the season before he would have failed miserably.

Peck
12-04-2012, 01:34 AM
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

Is he a point guard like Mark Jackson? No but then again Stephan Marbury wasn’t a point guard like Mark Jackson either but he was still a point guard.

Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pass? Yes. Can he run an offensive set? Yes.

Please don’t give me the “he can’t guard the oppositions point guard” because I’m telling you D.J. Augustin can’t guard that spot either.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

CJ Jones
12-04-2012, 02:10 AM
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

I think it's peoples nice way of saying Lance is too dumb to run the point. Which could be true, but many of those same people thought he was worthless and untalented as early as this preseason so I don't listen to them when it comes to Lance.

The only thing that was holding Lance back on offense was shooting and turnovers. He's shored those areas of his game up, and now players have to respect him. That should only make his PG game better. If he can ever get the mental thing down he'd be match up nightmare for most teams at PG. There's only a few that could guard him in the post. (that's if we ever decide to develop our guys overall games which I don't have much hope for)

CableKC
12-04-2012, 02:22 AM
Lance has one more year on his contract at below $1 million. We got time. Also if we would have "asked" last season or the season before he would have failed miserably.
Oh.....I stand corrected about his contract. I thought that his contract was up after this season.

However, this does not change my preference to let him "sink or swim" at the backup PG spot now...rather than later.

This is because it is likely that we will need to fill the Backup PG spot during the 2013-2014 season. Given that it does not seem like DJ will be that backup PG beyond the 2012-2013 season :pray:....this goes back to what I am saying about figuring out if Lance will be better suited to be the backup PG or not only.

My whole point is that we need to know this season as to whether Lance is better suited to be the backup PG or not....if the question has not been answered by then as to whether Lance can be the backup PG or not......then will the Pacers make a run at another Backup PG and possibly sign both Lance and this new Backup PG to a long term contract?

If Lance isn't best suited to be a backup PG, then great.....in the 2013-2014 offseason....the FO pursues another Backup PG for the long-term and then figures out what else to do with Lance ( if anything ).

If Lance is better suited to be a backup PG.....then there is no need to look for another backup PG in the 2013-2014 offseason.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 02:25 AM
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

This. Never understood why people want to try to explain away his obvious point guard skills.

I also keep wondering what people are realistically expecting out of Vogel as far as Lance's playing time? He's getting an average of almost 25 minutes of burn a game, vs. 11 last year (so far). He's come close this year in matching his entire FGA #s from last year (already).

He's now in the starting lineup, and depending on his play and matchup closes out a game.

While he's done well with that so far, some of you are placing a standard on his amount of utilization that very few 2nd rounders in their 3rd year can match.

He's also 22 years old.

Seems like very good evolution for him given the circumstances.

I do believe he'll step up to higher expectations though, as per McKeyFan's original point.

CableKC
12-04-2012, 02:31 AM
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

Is he a point guard like Mark Jackson? No but then again Stephan Marbury wasn’t a point guard like Mark Jackson either but he was still a point guard.

Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pass? Yes. Can he run an offensive set? Yes.

Please don’t give me the “he can’t guard the oppositions point guard” because I’m telling you D.J. Augustin can’t guard that spot either.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.
Sorry, perhaps my wording is poorly chosen.

If Lance is going to be a Player that requires the ball in his hands to be most effective.....either as someone that creates for others or for himself....that means ( at least to me ) that he has to be the primary ball handler when he's on the floor. Being the primary ball handler is something that he can't be if there is another PG ( such as GH or DJ ) on the floor with him at the same time.

This is one of the reasons why I am not very happy with the current role that he has on the Team. He's not very effective being the guy just standing at the 3pt line waiting for the ball and why I want to see what he can do as the primary ball handler when he is on the floor. IMHO...pairing him with GH or DJ forces him into a role that he is not best suited for.

If the Coaching Staff determines that he isn't best suited to be a guy that has the ball in his hands most of the time when he is on the floor, then the FO will know that they will need to pursue a Backup PG next season.

If the Coaching Staff determines that he is better suited to be a guy that has the ball in his hands most of the time when he is on the floor....then the FO shouldn't pursue another Player that will need to do the same....as in another Backup PG.

The Coaching Staff can't do either if he's not getting the opportunity to show it now. As many of us are suggesting....I want to give him the keys to the 2nd unit and see if he can do it or not. It's now or never IMHO....cuz I don't think that it's a good idea to pursue another Backup PG in the 2013-2014 offseason ( with a possible long-term contract ) and then find out later that Lance is best suited to be the guy handling the ball when he's on the court.

He may not be a true PG....but we have to find out if he's going to be the guy handling the ball all the time or not....which essentially means that he's going to be the "proverbial" PG when he's on the floor.

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 03:09 AM
Sorry, perhaps my wording is poorly chosen.

If Lance is going to be a Player that requires the ball in his hands to be most effective.....either as someone that creates for others or for himself....that means ( at least to me ) that he has to be the primary ball handler when he's on the floor. Being the primary ball handler is something that he can't be if there is another PG ( such as GH or DJ ) on the floor with him at the same time.

This is one of the reasons why I am not very happy with the current role that he has on the Team. He's not very effective being the guy just standing at the 3pt line waiting for the ball and why I want to see what he can do as the primary ball handler when he is on the floor. IMHO...pairing him with GH or DJ forces him into a role that he is not best suited for.

If the Coaching Staff determines that he isn't best suited to be a guy that has the ball in his hands most of the time when he is on the floor, then the FO will know that they will need to pursue a Backup PG next season.

If the Coaching Staff determines that he is better suited to be a guy that has the ball in his hands most of the time when he is on the floor....then the FO shouldn't pursue another Player that will need to do the same....as in another Backup PG.

The Coaching Staff can't do either if he's not getting the opportunity to show it now. As many of us are suggesting....I want to give him the keys to the 2nd unit and see if he can do it or not. It's now or never IMHO....cuz I don't think that it's a good idea to pursue another Backup PG in the 2013-2014 offseason ( with a possible long-term contract ) and then find out later that Lance is best suited to be the guy handling the ball when he's on the court.

He may not be a true PG....but we have to find out if he's going to be the guy handling the ball all the time or not....which essentially means that he's going to be the "proverbial" PG when he's on the floor.

While I agree that he is better when he is controlling the ball, I disagree that you can't have two primary ballhandlers on the floor. Many teams in the NBA use this tactic, and many are successful with it. In fact, I would say the thing we need most of is more ball handlers (edging out better shooters). Having two ballhandlers also allows transition offense to run more fluidly.

Off the top of my head, here are some 2-PG pairings who play significant minutes together and have been successful recently:

Harden and Westbrook/Durant
Ginobili and Parker
Calderon and Lowry/Jarret Jack/TJ Ford
Chris Paul and Chauncey Billups
Kidd and Terry/Felton
2011-12 76ers
Montae Ellis and Curry/Jennings
Luke Ridnour and whatever guard he ever ends up playing with

It happens all over the league. You can have two ball-dominant guards who play together consistently. It gives you the freedom if one player gets stopped to swing the ball to the weak side and let him work on the hopefully overextended side of the defense. It gives you a change-of-pace in a lineup without having to make a substitution to institute. The concession is that you choose one to be the main ballhandler for the unit. BUt that doesn't mean the other guy gets stuck in a corner and forgotten.

This year it is clear they don't want that guy to be Lance. IMO, there's nothing wrong with not trusting 20-30 minutes of your offense to somebody getting their first full year of consistent playing time under there belt. Next year, I assume we don't re-sign Augustin and we pick up a veteran PG who can spot up from 3 to be our backup PG.

Eleazar
12-04-2012, 03:13 AM
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

Is he a point guard like Mark Jackson? No but then again Stephan Marbury wasn’t a point guard like Mark Jackson either but he was still a point guard.

Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pass? Yes. Can he run an offensive set? Yes.

Please don’t give me the “he can’t guard the oppositions point guard” because I’m telling you D.J. Augustin can’t guard that spot either.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

Mentality, the difference between being a PG and being just another wing player is all about mentality. Yeah, most of the time you have small SGs playing point, but that is just because of the lack of PGs.

15th parallel
12-04-2012, 04:29 AM
I think many are blinded by the concept of point guards because of how the modern point guards play the game. We see PGs driving fast inside, or doing some fancy passes, or doing some killer cross-over moves. But the concept of a point guard is to be the "floor general" of the team playing on court. That means as a floor general he should be in total control, the one that the other 4 players look up to for setting up plays, the one that sees the floor well and make plans and plays based on how opponents move on offense or defense. There's a reason why the likes of Kidd and Nash are well respected PGs up to now despite their age while the likes of Marbury are out of the league.

In my view, Lance can be a PG and has the necessary physical tools. But right now, he's still not having that commanding presence and control a PG needs to have. He needs to have a better feel of the team and needs to be more in control. For now, there's no problem settling for the role of an optional scorer but I think Vogel needs to tweak his plays to have Lance be an initiator on offense (some iso plays for him or him cutting inside to distract interior defense).

Pacer Fan
12-04-2012, 10:34 AM
Lance needs to do a better job to earn more minutes and the staff needs to see if DJ will continue sucking in order for Lance to get more minutes. I can see DJ finding himself again and seeing Lance and / or Young minutes drop. I don't think Frank has any other choice this early in the season.

McKeyFan
12-04-2012, 10:37 AM
Lance needs to do a better job to earn more minutes and the staff needs to see if DJ will continue sucking in order for Lance to get more minutes. I can see DJ finding himself again and seeing Lance and / or Young minutes drop. I don't think Frank has any other choice this early in the season.

I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.

Pacer Fan
12-04-2012, 10:53 AM
I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.

They brought DJ and Green in for a reason and the staff has to play them to this point. If things keep going the same way I think we will see Lance get more minutes which means DJ and / or Green getting less. If this is to develope, I suspect a trade of DJ and Young for someone else. But, for now the staff and FO has to know what they have and taking minutes away from DJ and Green isn't going to help at this point of the season. Things may change after the 15th. JMO

docpaul
12-04-2012, 11:20 AM
I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.

Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

He successfully competed for the starting role, and has kept it.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

3rdStrike
12-04-2012, 11:26 AM
They brought DJ and Green in for a reason and the staff has to play them to this point. If things keep going the same way I think we will see Lance get more minutes which means DJ and / or Green getting less. If this is to develope, I suspect a trade of DJ and Young for someone else. But, for now the staff and FO has to know what they have and taking minutes away from DJ and Green isn't going to help at this point of the season. Things may change after the 15th. JMO

You're forgetting who Lance is usually getting pulled for. You know, the minimum contract guy who is getting more minutes over the last 10 games than any of our subs. The guy who takes all the bad shots that would get Lance benched. The man, the myth, the legend: Sam Young. This is the guy who is taking minutes away from players more important to the success of the Pacers.

I understand DJA has been bad this year, but he's averaging 13 mpg. You can't expect a guy who's used to being a starter to be able to work his way out of a slump when he's getting half his regular minutes & is losing many of said minutes so Vogel can reward Young for saving his life this offseason, because that's the only logical explanation for his extended PT and green light to shoot.


Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

It's not the minutes, it's the timing. He gets pulled when he's on fire, for example (see the Golden State game). All too often he is having an impact on the game and Vogel is like "nope, I can't stand for this. Lance! Sit! Sammy! Get in there!"

McKeyFan
12-04-2012, 11:31 AM
Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

He successfully competed for the starting role, and has kept it.

Rome wasn't built in a day.
All good points.

I would say that finishing is more important than starting, and Lance has been kept from doing so a few times. This last game, where he played extremely well, he was not allowed to finish and we lost the game, pretty handily.

Again, your points are well taken if this is simply and only about Lance's development. He surely is on a fast moving track given your perspective. But I guess I am also interested in the Pacers playing better basketball right now. And my opinion is that happens much more effectively, and they win more games, by playing Lance more than 25 minutes and by letting him finish.

McKeyFan
12-04-2012, 11:34 AM
Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

He successfully competed for the starting role, and has kept it.

Rome wasn't built in a day.
The standard comment is about Paul George and others being allowed to make a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots and keep their minutes. It seems Lance is in jeopardy of getting pulled if he makes one turnover or misses one shot, and almost certainly if there are two. That might be a slight exaggeration, but not by much.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 11:37 AM
It's not the minutes, it's the timing. He gets pulled when he's on fire, for example (see the Golden State game). All too often he is having an impact on the game and Vogel is like "nope, I can't stand for this. Lance! Sit! Sammy! Get in there!"

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

From my eyes (and of course this is up for individual interpretation), he got pulled when the GSW guards went all "Bulls on Parade" and we started to get torched defensively.

Sam has the size and defensive track record to potentially combat that. Of course, it didn't really affect the outcome in this case, but I could at least see the rationale in the decision.

To me, it was less of "Lance, time to pee in your cornflakes" and more "we're getting hurt here defensively and need to adjust". :)

docpaul
12-04-2012, 11:40 AM
The standard comment is about Paul George and others being allowed to make a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots and keep their minutes. It seems Lance is in jeopardy of getting pulled if he makes one turnover or misses one shot, and almost certainly if there are two. That might be a slight exaggeration, but not by much.

The team has been committed to keeping PG (for well over a year now) as the starting 2. The double standard you refer to exists all throughout the NBA it seems to me. Core members of the team get to play through their mistakes, and backups / temp leaders do not.

Lance hasn't yet earned that distinction, but he's well on his way. Remember how many games he's played in this role. :)

Rome wasn't built in a day. Just needs some time.

McKeyFan
12-04-2012, 11:57 AM
Ah, thanks for the clarification.

From my eyes (and of course this is up for individual interpretation), he got pulled when the GSW guards went all "Bulls on Parade" and we started to get torched defensively.

Sam has the size and defensive track record to potentially combat that. Of course, it didn't really affect the outcome in this case, but I could at least see the rationale in the decision.

To me, it was less of "Lance, time to pee in your cornflakes" and more "we're getting hurt here defensively and need to adjust". :)

From my eyes (and this could also be misconstrued--and I am not being sarcastic, I liked your attitude), Lance was not the one being torched. PG was getting torched by Klay Thompson. Seth Curry didn't heat up till the latter part of the game when Lance was not in.

That's why I'm frustrated: PG plays poorly. Lance sits.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 12:20 PM
From my eyes (and this could also be misconstrued--and I am not being sarcastic, I liked your attitude), Lance was not the one being torched. PG was getting torched by Klay Thompson. Seth Curry didn't heat up till the latter part of the game when Lance was not in.

That's why I'm frustrated: PG plays poorly. Lance sits.

I think that's fair.. but in this specific example, what actually happened is that Lance and Paul got pulled at the same time. :) Go take a look at the play-by-play. Green and Sam came in on the same personal foul.

Additionally, if Lance was actually defending his contemporary, he would have been defending Klay. I think they switched most possessions and had PG defending the 2/perimeter, but played him offensively as the 3. Lance was left to defend Barnes, who had a quiet offensive game that night.

We'll never know what would have happened if Lance was on Klay. :)

Hicks
12-04-2012, 01:02 PM
The standard comment is about Paul George and others being allowed to make a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots and keep their minutes. It seems Lance is in jeopardy of getting pulled if he makes one turnover or misses one shot, and almost certainly if there are two. That might be a slight exaggeration, but not by much.

Could it be the others not only have earned more slack already, but also that they bring more to the table than Lance does? It's not like Lance can guard people the way Paul can (in general, obviously the GSW game not a great game), for example.

McKeyFan
12-04-2012, 01:13 PM
Could it be the others not only have earned more slack already, but also that they bring more to the table than Lance does? It's not like Lance can guard people the way Paul can (in general, obviously the GSW game not a great game), for example.
That idea has some merit. However, recently I've seen Paul George make more defensive mistakes than Lance. Paul does have some nice moments on defense because of his size and athleticism, but I'm not convinced Lance won't develop similar strengths with more play behind his belt. He has a lot of physical talent as well.

Right now, I would say that if the offense is sputtering, Lance brings more to the table for the Pacers RIGHT NOW than PG does.

pacer4ever
12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

Is he a point guard like Mark Jackson? No but then again Stephan Marbury wasn’t a point guard like Mark Jackson either but he was still a point guard.

Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pass? Yes. Can he run an offensive set? Yes.

Please don’t give me the “he can’t guard the oppositions point guard” because I’m telling you D.J. Augustin can’t guard that spot either.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

Westbrook defensively is a pg probably(it's debatable I know) the best defender in the league at guarding the ball.


Lance to me can play pg offensively but defensively I have always viewed him as a 2nd wing guy. He guards the other teams 2nd best wing who ideally is an isolation player for example players who run off screens I wouldn't want Lance guarding(his lack of laterally speed kills him).


I love the scoring guard like Westbrook as long as they defend their spot Lance can play pg fine as long as he cross matches on defense. But I always preach "you are what you can defend"


But with our offense you can play "pg" at the SG spot. The problem is Vogel has Lance has the 5th option when he should be the 2nd only to Hill//West PnR/ 2-man game.

As a coach I would salivate at the ways you can use Lance(he gives you tons of options to run) but it doesn't seem our coach does.

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2012, 01:26 PM
His defensive rotations on defense are making Tyler look adept. It wasn't his offense, it was his off the ball rotations. When the pnr is applied our opposite wing is suppose to crash the paint. He is not doing that. At all. You all seem to think that the pnr roll problems are solely on Hill and Roy. And that is not the case. pnr defense is on the entire team.
I agree with this, but I also agree with Eleazar that at this point I'd rather have his shooting and on-ball defense vs whatever we are calling Augustin's output.

DJ gets beat off the dribble almost as a reflex. Even when he picked Jack's pocket it was on the backside so that had he missed he would have given JJack the clear line right to the lane. I want to have DJ playing if he's playing well, but he's been such a problem so far that I just don't see why they keep working him when instead they could have Lance be out there as the bigger, physical PG on defense and a guy that can threaten on offense more.

Right now DJ is getting crushed on the offensive PnR, he never seems to find a smooth pass into the roll and often gets trapped rather than even finding his man on the PnPop.

BTW, I complained to Gnome about this (and a Warriors fan) during the game. 1st quarter DJ comes in with the game at 20-16 (Ian is hitting his 2nd FT when he enters). This turns into a 10 point deficit within 6 minutes of game, for a total swing of -14. That was nearly the game right there.

They pulled it back to down 6 by the time he left, and a small bit of that was DJ finally making a bucket. But less than 4 minutes after he'd left the Pacers had retaken the lead.

Ultimately they slumped to end the 1st half and got really tired/sloppy in the 3rd, but maybe if you keep that -14 closer to -4 then the main unit can get a buffer to withstand the 3rd quarter slump. And I feel like Lance can help with that more.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 01:39 PM
That idea has some merit. However, recently I've seen Paul George make more defensive mistakes than Lance. Paul does have some nice moments on defense because of his size and athleticism, but I'm not convinced Lance won't develop similar strengths with more play behind his belt. He has a lot of physical talent as well.

Right now, I would say that if the offense is sputtering, Lance brings more to the table for the Pacers RIGHT NOW than PG does.

IMO, the contrasts between Lance and Paul are a fun example of how expectations and influence play and perspectives, both in fans, and the players themselves.

I think it's safe to say that Lance had an uphill battle coming into the start of the season. Lower expectations by fans and the team. Now that he struck pay dirt in the current circumstance, people are excited about his potential (he has exceeded expectations), and he's likely feeling pretty good about himself, which is reflected in his play. He plays loose and with passion/assertiveness.

Paul on the other hand came in with very high expectations (some even think he's on a trajectory towards stardom), and then got thrust into even higher expectations where he was looked at by many as a "replacement" for Granger. Almost impossible for him to live up to this expectation, and he's more or less lived up to that. He starts feeling bad about his play and he's likely in his own head.

What's funny is that they're both 22, they were both drafted in the same class, and both are playing pretty darn well if you step back from your expectations. :)

Peck
12-04-2012, 01:39 PM
I agree with this, but I also agree with Eleazar that at this point I'd rather have his shooting and on-ball defense vs whatever we are calling Augustin's output.

DJ gets beat off the dribble almost as a reflex. Even when he picked Jack's pocket it was on the backside so that had he missed he would have given JJack the clear line right to the lane. I want to have DJ playing if he's playing well, but he's been such a problem so far that I just don't see why they keep working him when instead they could have Lance be out there as the bigger, physical PG on defense and a guy that can threaten on offense more.

Right now DJ is getting crushed on the offensive PnR, he never seems to find a smooth pass into the roll and often gets trapped rather than even finding his man on the PnPop.

BTW, I complained to Gnome about this (and a Warriors fan) during the game. 1st quarter DJ comes in with the game at 20-16 (Ian is hitting his 2nd FT when he enters). This turns into a 10 point deficit within 6 minutes of game, for a total swing of -14. That was nearly the game right there.They pulled it back to down 6 by the time he left, and a small bit of that was DJ finally making a bucket. But less than 4 minutes after he'd left the Pacers had retaken the lead.

Ultimately they slumped to end the 1st half and got really tired/sloppy in the 3rd, but maybe if you keep that -14 closer to -4 then the main unit can get a buffer to withstand the 3rd quarter slump. And I feel like Lance can help with that more.

Definately the turning point of the game. But sadly that seems to be a pattern, DJ absolutely is a big part of that problem but generally its when the bench comes in that we have such a huge dropoff.

Major Cold
12-04-2012, 02:13 PM
I agree with picking a choosing who to bench when one defensively screws up. We all were frustrated when Troy failed one on one defense, but McBob was bench or Tyler because of their failed rotations. So what is worse? Failed rotations or failed one on one?

The rotations helped failed one on one situations. And that will break down no matter how good of a defender you have. Bruce Bowen was a fantasic one on one defender. But if it weren't for the rotations for him to funnel the Kobe's into, I don't think he gets noticed enough.

The rotations are a fail safe. It is the breaks on an elevator system. And if the one on one fails you need the breaks.

So if we all know what was important to JOB, the system. Has Vogel been any different? And not just with benching a player who fails to rotate, but HIS rotations in and of themselves.

He is a young coach with unfamiliar players, and he is showing struggles in covering up their weakness with his system. I want Lance on he court more because I think he will learn to rotate eventually. If Tyler got better, Lance should. Roy struggled early in his career, but now is a fantastic in the paint helpside defender.

Lance getting benched has nothing to do with Bird not being here, his attitude, humbling him (I would buy this more than anything), or any other reason besides that Vogel values help side defense as much as his predecessor

Sookie
12-04-2012, 03:19 PM
This. Never understood why people want to try to explain away his obvious point guard skills.



It's simple. He can't run a team offense.

I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)

But even if he learns that, is point really where we want him? Maybe..in a structure like the Pacers where the point guard's job does seem to be to score. But I'd really like to see Lance in the context of a shooting guard, where there is a point guard and Lance is a secondary play maker. With the thought process of "make plays for myself first, make plays for others second." Because really, Lance's best quality in highschool and his one year of college was scoring. And his ability to score was why Larry liked him.

He's made a huge jump this year. He's certainly been the best bench player and deserves his spot in the starting lineup. But he did it by improving upon the things I, and many other people who criticized Lance, said he'd need to improve on. His shooting and the ability to play within a team concept. But perhaps expecting a larger role in the starting lineup would be too much for him. As much as he has a different mentality than PG, (who I think the idea of a "larger role" has gotten too, without Danny) he may not be able to handle it in terms of the way teams defend him. There's nothing wrong with taking it slow with Lance. That seems to have worked so far.

That all being said, Like Hill as a starting PG because he is the best player capable of playing pg, when Danny returns..Lance may still be the best option at backup PG. I'm willing to wager that Lance learns how to rotate far before DJ learns how to defend at anything. And letting Lance just do what he wants to do with the ball may be a better idea than having DJ try to run an actual offense with that group. Defensively, I don't know that it'll matter that much in the second unit, and offensively it pretty much HAS to be an improvement.

if it doesn't work than it doesn't work, but DJ isn't doing anything, and when Danny returns, someone is going to lose their playing time, and at least Young does something on one side of the ball.

Unclebuck
12-04-2012, 03:44 PM
I agree with picking a choosing who to bench when one defensively screws up. We all were frustrated when Troy failed one on one defense, but McBob was bench or Tyler because of their failed rotations. So what is worse? Failed rotations or failed one on one?




Generally speaking failed rotations are mental mistakes while failed one-on-one are physical mistakes.

Only thing worse than mental mistakes is lack of effort. Physical mistakes a coach can live with

Major Cold
12-04-2012, 03:59 PM
Generally speaking failed rotations are mental mistakes while failed one-on-one are physical mistakes.

Only thing worse than mental mistakes is lack of effort. Physical mistakes a coach can live with
I completely agree. But the next question is where is the best place to learn from the mental lapse? On the court to enhance muscle memory and reaction time or on the bench with an outside perspective and a coach pointing out the rotations?

docpaul
12-04-2012, 04:07 PM
It's simple. He can't run a team offense. I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)


Thanks for the good comments here.

I'm not totally convinced that our offensive scheme is really predicated on requiring a floor general, though.

In other words, the starting lineup at the end of last year worked well enough for us, and it featured Hill as the PG. We had great offensive efficiency, especially out of the first team.

I agree that while Lance will never be a Rondo-like "dictate the offense"-kind-of-player, I believe he still has the proper skill set to play the position. Additionally, he probably has fairly strong potential to be an effective post feeder which is a fundamentally important skill for our offense.

I'm like you... I like more traditional floor general type of point guards. That's not in our cards though... unless we make some sort of dramatic trade that shakes up the core of the team.

CableKC
12-04-2012, 04:24 PM
It's simple. He can't run a team offense.

I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)

But even if he learns that, is point really where we want him? Maybe..in a structure like the Pacers where the point guard's job does seem to be to score. But I'd really like to see Lance in the context of a shooting guard, where there is a point guard and Lance is a secondary play maker. With the thought process of "make plays for myself first, make plays for others second." Because really, Lance's best quality in highschool and his one year of college was scoring. And his ability to score was why Larry liked him.
Aren't we in that position to test that now with GH?

The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.

Eleazar
12-04-2012, 04:50 PM
Aren't we in that position to test that now with GH?

The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.

I would rather start Lance. Sub him out first then sub him in for Hill when DJ would normally sub in, and forget DJ is even on this team.

Thiago Silva
12-04-2012, 05:31 PM
Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants

Have you seen some of the plays this dude draws up? Any player with any sense wouldn't run a play Vogel draws up. Hopefully West stands up at the end of this season and says " I would like to stay, but i can't play for Vogel." It's not nice, but Vogel is one of those people you can just look at and listen to talk and realize he's just a dumb person. He has no business being an NBA head coach. Maybe he's a nice guy, but he's a bad coach. Not only does he need to do a better job with Lance, he needs to do a better job with the entire team. There's no way this team, even without Granger, should be below .500 with the schedule the Pacers have had.

Sookie
12-04-2012, 07:02 PM
Aren't we in that position to test that now with GH?

The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.

Well, I meant when he resumes his role as backup SG.

I'd expect him to be the least involved of the starting five now. He's the fifth best player, and he's the least experienced. (He also struggles a bit in the concept of the offense. As others pointed out, he often needs to be told where to be. A pretty common young player mistake..but that mistake makes it harder for them to be involved.)

Like I said, it might be to the team's benefit to just give Lance the keys to the backup unit. Him and Tyler can have good offensive chemistry and miss defensive rotations together. But then the question would be if it was would be the best thing for Lance's development. (Letting him do what he'd like). He needs to learn offensive structure, and giving him the keys means that he won't.

Tom White
12-04-2012, 08:01 PM
I just want to interject something here. When I first saw this was another thread about Lance, I was worried that it might turn into a bit of a negative thread. To say it another way, I was worried it would be another "argument" thread because, in the past, discussions about Lance have pushed some "hot buttons" for some of us. Instead, we have all been treated to a thread full of helpful debate, with both sides of the basketball coin being well presented and well thought out. Just another example of the quality of posters on this board.

OK, now get out the pitchforks and both sides go at it!

timid
12-05-2012, 01:59 AM
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

Is he a point guard like Mark Jackson? No but then again Stephan Marbury wasnít a point guard like Mark Jackson either but he was still a point guard.

Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pass? Yes. Can he run an offensive set? Yes.

Please donít give me the ďhe canít guard the oppositions point guardĒ because Iím telling you D.J. Augustin canít guard that spot either.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isnít a point guard then Russell Westbrook isnít a point guard (no Iím not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he letís certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesnít seem to pull them. Iíll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldnít mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

Agree 1000%

CableKC
12-05-2012, 04:28 AM
Well, I meant when he resumes his role as backup SG.

I'd expect him to be the least involved of the starting five now. He's the fifth best player, and he's the least experienced. (He also struggles a bit in the concept of the offense. As others pointed out, he often needs to be told where to be. A pretty common young player mistake..but that mistake makes it harder for them to be involved.)

Like I said, it might be to the team's benefit to just give Lance the keys to the backup unit. Him and Tyler can have good offensive chemistry and miss defensive rotations together. But then the question would be if it was would be the best thing for Lance's development. (Letting him do what he'd like). He needs to learn offensive structure, and giving him the keys means that he won't.
So, we're on the same page here.....I prefer to simply give Lance the keys to the Cutlass Supreme sitting in the garage than the Mustang just to see if he wrecks it or not.

Given the Starting 4 penchant for scoring.....move Young to the Starting lineup and let him do a very poor man's impression of Battier where his role is to simply hound the opposing Wing Players and hitting the spot up 3 from time to time.

The main thing that I want to see is what Lance can do with the ball instead of playing off the ball. He's meant to be more than just a guy that can run around the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him so he can take a 3pt jumpshot.

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 09:07 AM
If Paul George can continue his effectiveness like he showed last night against the Bulls, then I am even more interested in this scenario:

Lance starts
Lance first to be replaced
Lance subs in for Hill
Lance finished with the starters

This allows Lance to run the offense in Hill's absence. It allows us to take more advantage of Lance's offensive skills. It removes DJ's terrible defense from the equation.

If PG continues to step up, then the crying need for more offense with the starters is not there anymore. However, Lance has proven himself incredibly useful, even in stand in the corner mode, with the starters in terms of rebounds, assist/turnover efficiency, solid defense, and a heads-up in the clutch confidence and savvy when it matters at the end of games. So he needs to be in at the end.

The above scenario allows for all those needs. It puts DJ at the end of the stick, but he kinda deserves it.

count55
12-06-2012, 01:00 PM
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?



Me before the NOH game on 11/21: "In the second half of the Knicks game, you used Lance at point guard. Was that a situational thing, or something more?"


Bench struggled in the first half, and our team in general was struggling with our tempo and our pace and our flow. Heís one of our best ďpushĒ guys. We were struggling offensively, and sometimes you just gotta try something different.

Me: "You see anything that makes you want to try it again?"


I liked what I thought I would see, in terms of the pace picked up, but I think DJ is our best option at backup point guard. Lance is a good push guy, but heís a Ď2í.

Me before last night's game: "The definition of a point guard is fuzzy. What, in your mind, is a point guard?"


A lot of people think that if you can handle the ball, youíre a point guard. Lance can really handle the basketball. A true point guard is a setup guy with the basketball, but also, youíre an orchestrator of five men. Youíre the coach on the floor. Youíre the leader. Youíre not only thinking the game, calling the sets out, but youíre making sure that everybody else is in their spots. Youíre initiating the offense, getting it into a flow, and thatís what differentiates between the one and the two.

Since86
12-06-2012, 01:11 PM
That makes me wonder if he sees Lance as a 2, because he doesn't have the experience doing those leader things or if it's because he doesn't think he can.

CableKC
12-06-2012, 01:32 PM
That makes me wonder if he sees Lance as a 2, because he doesn't have the experience doing those leader things or if it's because he doesn't think he can.
Maybe Vogel's explanation above explains the dependence on DJ....who I assume he views as more of a "Orchestra Condutor-type" PG....and Lance NOT as a True PG ( as he sees it ) but as a "very good Ball-Handler". Vogel clearly sees a difference between someone that can "handles the ball very well" and a "PG that leads and directs the traffic on the court".

I really prefer to see how Lance can do running the show with Green/Young/Hansbrough/Mahinmi...but if that is not an option....then I'd like to see how DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi ( the eventual lineup when Granger returns ) will do.

Sookie
12-06-2012, 01:35 PM
So, we're on the same page here.....I prefer to simply give Lance the keys to the Cutlass Supreme sitting in the garage than the Mustang just to see if he wrecks it or not.

Given the Starting 4 penchant for scoring.....move Young to the Starting lineup and let him do a very poor man's impression of Battier where his role is to simply hound the opposing Wing Players and hitting the spot up 3 from time to time.

The main thing that I want to see is what Lance can do with the ball instead of playing off the ball. He's meant to be more than just a guy that can run around the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him so he can take a 3pt jumpshot.

Sort of. I think Lance is an SG. I think he's be at his best as an SG. But seeing as he does positive things on the court and is capable of dribbling and passing, I'd think he'd be an advantage over DJ.

I wouldn't change the situation now, the starting lineup needs all the offensive help it can get. But when Danny returns, I wouldn't be opposed to trying it. As I said, someone...Lance/Danny G/DJ/Sam is going to lose their minutes when Danny returns..And I'd personally make it DJ.

CableKC
12-06-2012, 01:48 PM
Sort of. I think Lance is an SG. I think he's be at his best as an SG. But seeing as he does positive things on the court and is capable of dribbling and passing, I'd think he'd be an advantage over DJ.

I wouldn't change the situation now, the starting lineup needs all the offensive help it can get. But when Danny returns, I wouldn't be opposed to trying it. As I said, someone...Lance/Danny G/DJ/Sam is going to lose their minutes when Danny returns..And I'd personally make it DJ.
Wait a sec.....don't we need more consistent offensive scoring options in the 2nd unit...not the Starting Unit?

I'd understand if the drop off ( in terms of contribution ) between Lance and Young is significant....but it's not.

Given that the Starting lineup already has 3 1/2 better scoring options with GH/West/PG/Hibbert ( where Hibbert is the 1/2...until he can get his shooting confidence back ).....I'd think that it would make more sense to have a specific Role Player like Young ( purely as a defensive guy that can at least make 1 out of 3 open 3pt attempts ) in the Starting Lineup instead of having Lance stand at the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him ( where he will either shoot a 3 or pass the ball ).

My thought is that if the 2nd unit will eventually be forced to play DJ at the point and Lance in the 2nd unit.....then shouldn't we see if we can get Lance assimilated to the 2nd Unit as soon as we can just to build Chemistry in the 2nd unit? Doing this would also assess how well Lance would do with another PG ( like DJ ) while filling the role as a SG that can "handle the ball very well".

IMHO..if he is going to end up in the 2nd unit regardless.....then the sooner the better.

count55
12-06-2012, 02:01 PM
My impression from multiple conversations is that Vogel does not see Stephenson as a point guard, now or in the future. However, he's used Lance at the point in the past (during preseason), so I don't think anything is set in stone.

BillS
12-06-2012, 02:52 PM
Bruno was just saying on Dakich show that the best situation for Lance would be as the aggressive guy on the second unit.

McKeyFan
12-06-2012, 03:45 PM
Me before the NOH game on 11/21: "In the second half of the Knicks game, you used Lance at point guard. Was that a situational thing, or something more?"



Me: "You see anything that makes you want to try it again?"



Me before last night's game: "The definition of a point guard is fuzzy. What, in your mind, is a point guard?"

Nice reporting from the horse's mouth. Thanks.

Sookie
12-06-2012, 04:44 PM
Wait a sec.....don't we need more consistent offensive scoring options in the 2nd unit...not the Starting Unit?

I'd understand if the drop off ( in terms of contribution ) between Lance and Young is significant....but it's not.

Given that the Starting lineup already has 3 1/2 better scoring options with GH/West/PG/Hibbert ( where Hibbert is the 1/2...until he can get his shooting confidence back ).....I'd think that it would make more sense to have a specific Role Player like Young ( purely as a defensive guy that can at least make 1 out of 3 open 3pt attempts ) in the Starting Lineup instead of having Lance stand at the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him ( where he will either shoot a 3 or pass the ball ).

My thought is that if the 2nd unit will eventually be forced to play DJ at the point and Lance in the 2nd unit.....then shouldn't we see if we can get Lance assimilated to the 2nd Unit as soon as we can just to build Chemistry in the 2nd unit? Doing this would also assess how well Lance would do with another PG ( like DJ ) while filling the role as a SG that can "handle the ball very well".

IMHO..if he is going to end up in the 2nd unit regardless.....then the sooner the better.

Yes, right now.

But if you take Young and put him in the starting lineup (and I like Young for what he is) then that has an effect on everyone else. There's no reason to guard Young, making things even more difficult for Hibbert and West, and to an extent Hill and PG. It's not like the Pacers are really scoring well right now.

The bench has been terrible, but they just don't play enough for it to matter. I wouldn't have a problem with just cutting out DJ now, and playing Young and DG more, but I also think that's likely a little too much pressure on Lance at the moment.

CJ Jones
12-07-2012, 02:07 AM
Wait a sec.....don't we need more consistent offensive scoring options in the 2nd unit...not the Starting Unit?

I'd understand if the drop off ( in terms of contribution ) between Lance and Young is significant....but it's not.

Given that the Starting lineup already has 3 1/2 better scoring options with GH/West/PG/Hibbert ( where Hibbert is the 1/2...until he can get his shooting confidence back ).....I'd think that it would make more sense to have a specific Role Player like Young ( purely as a defensive guy that can at least make 1 out of 3 open 3pt attempts ) in the Starting Lineup instead of having Lance stand at the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him ( where he will either shoot a 3 or pass the ball ).

My thought is that if the 2nd unit will eventually be forced to play DJ at the point and Lance in the 2nd unit.....then shouldn't we see if we can get Lance assimilated to the 2nd Unit as soon as we can just to build Chemistry in the 2nd unit? Doing this would also assess how well Lance would do with another PG ( like DJ ) while filling the role as a SG that can "handle the ball very well".

IMHO..if he is going to end up in the 2nd unit regardless.....then the sooner the better.

Lance's stats aren't great, but if you look at the overall teams stats they seems to be a lot better offensively when Lance is on the floor. His ability to facilitate and get an occasional easy bucket for a teammate has been more important then it might seem. With that said, I wouldn't mind trying Young as starter if it meant DJ was on the bench, but I got a hard time seeing Frank ever pull the trigger on that. DJ took less money for an opportunity to shine here. He wouldn't be happy if he got benched, and I doubt Frank would rock the boat unless Lance starts acting up. He doesn't seem afraid to punish/discipline him.

CJ Jones
12-07-2012, 02:17 AM
Quote Originally Posted by Vogel
I liked what I thought I would see, in terms of the pace picked up, but I think DJ is our best option at backup point guard. Lance is a good push guy, but he’s a ‘2’.




Quote Originally Posted by Vogel
A lot of people think that if you can handle the ball, you’re a point guard. Lance can really handle the basketball. A true point guard is a setup guy with the basketball, but also, you’re an orchestrator of five men. You’re the coach on the floor. You’re the leader. You’re not only thinking the game, calling the sets out, but you’re making sure that everybody else is in their spots. You’re initiating the offense, getting it into a flow, and that’s what differentiates between the one and the two.


I'm sure Frank was trying to be supportive, but at this point, weeks later, DJ still is doing none of the things he listed in that second quote. At least AJ had some leadership qualities. Yes, DJ's made me yearn for AJ.