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vnzla81
12-02-2012, 01:53 AM
Go Pacers !!!!!

immortality
12-02-2012, 01:55 AM
that pacers offense, so amazing.

boombaby1987
12-02-2012, 01:56 AM
I thought we played pretty well. We shot the ball well. Hibbert 15 points 7 rebounds 5 blocks was a nice surprise.
2 things happen and we win that game.
1. Jarret Jack misses the half court heave that killed our momentum.
2.Paul George plays like he gives a ****.

Miller_time04
12-02-2012, 01:56 AM
Offense wasn't too bad tonight besides Paul. Idk what's wrong with him lately. Hibby is playing better though.

rock747
12-02-2012, 01:56 AM
Sam Young may be our starting sf before long...

AesopRockOn
12-02-2012, 01:56 AM
Klay Thompson killed us in the first half and Steph and Jarrett Jack finished us in the second. I just said this in the game thread but this loss isn't surprising or disappointing. The Warriors are a better basketball team than we are right now, and they were at home.

boombaby1987
12-02-2012, 01:57 AM
Also, we gave up so many second chance opportunities. Played great defense, then didn't get the rebound. Happened about 5 times from what I can remember.

boombaby1987
12-02-2012, 01:58 AM
I think Donnie and KP and have the guts to trade Paul.

Diamond Dave
12-02-2012, 01:59 AM
Paul George has been a total dissappointment this season. He cannot score against any defender. His only points come off of uncontested breakaways or open threes. Absolutely cannot drive, create seperation and hit a midrange shot. The way he double clutches in traffic to avoid drawing a foul resulting in getting blocked or his idiotic scoop shot makes me want to go on a shooting spree.

Magic P
12-02-2012, 01:59 AM
What did lance do to not play much in the second half?

Eleazar
12-02-2012, 01:59 AM
Klay Thompson killed us in the first half and Steph and Jarrett Jack finished us in the second. I just said this in the game thread but this loss isn't surprising or disappointing. The Warriors are a better basketball team than we are right now, and they were at home.

I don't think it is quite that as they are able to take advantage of our defensive weakness. Good shooters that move a lot off the ball, and use picks.

vnzla81
12-02-2012, 01:59 AM
I thought we played pretty well. We shot the ball well. Hibbert 15 points 7 rebounds 5 blocks was a nice surprise.
2 things happen and we win that game.
1. Jarret Jack misses the half court heave that killed our momentum.
2.Paul George plays like he gives a ****.

I knew it :laugh:

Ant
12-02-2012, 01:59 AM
Just got home from work, didnt get a chance to see the game. Looking at the box score obviously whats standing out is PG with 0 freaking points, really? Has he ever laid a goose egg before? I dont even remember that in his rookie season. I gotta say, and i hope im not overreacting, but im starting to see his ceiling as more of a Tony Allen instead of a Rudy Gay or Iguodala. I highly doubt Gay ever posted a 0 point game in his 3rd year. The worst part is hes coming off a 4 pt game last night. 4 points in 2 games well, thats completely unacceptable to say the least.

2minutes twoa
12-02-2012, 01:59 AM
Disappointing loss but a 2-1 west road trip I can take.

Evidence is starting to point toward PG being a good player that doesn't have the drive to be great.

AesopRockOn
12-02-2012, 02:00 AM
Though Augustine looked bad for a lot of tonight, no one besides maybe Paul looked worse than Tyler. He is in a Funke right now, pretty much forcing Vogel to consider West for 40 minutes a game.

As long as we're doing comparisons, Harrison Barnes seemed about as effective as Danny (his draft comp) tonight. The offense is still pretty deadly. Jax is doing a great job so far this season.

Diamond Dave
12-02-2012, 02:01 AM
I think Donnie and KP and have the guts to trade Paul.

I wish they did, but I doubt it. Hope we can drop him off on some sucker who only knows his game from a distance, and soon. Hope they don't wait till he has no value and trade him for a one year rental of Lou Amundson.

Magic P
12-02-2012, 02:02 AM
Though Augustine looked bad for a lot of tonight, no one besides maybe Paul looked worse than Tyler. He is in a Funke right now, pretty much forcing Vogel to consider West for 40 minutes a game.

As long as we're doing comparisons, Harrison Barnes seemed about as effective as Danny (his draft comp) tonight. The offense is still pretty deadly. Jax is doing a great job so far this season.

I didn't want to say anything because of the Tyler lovers but Tyler has been useless lately.

vnzla81
12-02-2012, 02:03 AM
The Pacers can also use some of those guards Golden state has, they can shoot, dribble and pass the ball well, the pacers don't even have one.

croz24
12-02-2012, 02:04 AM
Paul George + 2013 1st for Shabazz/Nerlens?

Pacerized
12-02-2012, 02:04 AM
As badly as we played, if Paul George had shown up we could have won. Terrible, terrible bench play from everyone. Ian still sucked even with his 10 points but at least he played with some aggression. I didn't see a solution that Vogel could have tried that would have made a difference. West, Hill and Hibbert can't play 48 minutes and we had no one to make up for PG.

Goyle
12-02-2012, 02:05 AM
Its definitely time we start seeing Ian/Roy. Tyler played way too much to start the 4th.

AesopRockOn
12-02-2012, 02:05 AM
The Pacers can also use some of those guards Golden state has, they can shoot, dribble and pass the ball well, the pacers don't even have one.

C'mon, Hill has been quite good. He and West on offense are the only reason we have been decent against this lackluster schedule.

boombaby1987
12-02-2012, 02:08 AM
As badly as we played, if Paul George had shown up we could have won. Terrible, terrible bench play from everyone. Ian still sucked even with his 10 points but at least he played with some aggression. I didn't see a solution that Vogel could have tried that would have made a difference. West, Hill and Hibbert can't play 48 minutes and we had no one to make up for PG.

With the exception of Hansbrough, the bench shot 9/17. I will take that every time. I though Ian played great personally. Defended well and scored when the opportunity presented itself. What made you think he sucked?

Dr. Awesome
12-02-2012, 02:08 AM
Paul George may end up being the biggest bust in terms of expectations that the Pacers have seen in a while.

At least Bender had an injury excuse...

AesopRockOn
12-02-2012, 02:08 AM
I don't think it is quite that as they are able to take advantage of our defensive weakness. Good shooters that move a lot off the ball, and use picks.

It's a really weird way to use George on defense. He's a lock-down on-ball defender and a roamer. He just isn't mobile or focused enough to chase those kinds of guys around. Any of Young, Lance or Green would have made more sense. Shift PG onto Curry or Barnes. I don't know what Vogel is thinking with these kinds of matchups.

boombaby1987
12-02-2012, 02:09 AM
Also, you know you are taking too many threes when you shoot more than the Warriors do. Period. :laugh:

AesopRockOn
12-02-2012, 02:11 AM
With the exception of Hansbrough, the bench shot 9/17. I will take that every time. I though Ian played great personally. Defended well and scored when the opportunity presented itself. What made you think he sucked?

Ian and Young have held down the bench of recent. :shudder:

Nuntius
12-02-2012, 02:18 AM
The Pacers can also use some of those guards Golden state has, they can shoot, dribble and pass the ball well, the pacers don't even have one.

Or at least that's how they look in the Warriors system.

PS: Altough, I'd love to have Klay.

AesopRockOn
12-02-2012, 02:20 AM
Also, Landry had 16 points off the bench. Quieter than Jack's, but still deadly.

http://i.imgur.com/0h6Li.png (http://imgur.com/0h6Li,wHqPX#0)
http://i.imgur.com/wHqPX.png (http://www.nba.com/games/20121201/INDGSW/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore)

vnzla81
12-02-2012, 02:21 AM
C'mon, Hill has been quite good. He and West on offense are the only reason we have been decent against this lackluster schedule.

Yes Hill has been amazing but he is not able to cut, shoot and make the kind of passes those guys do.

King Tuts Tomb
12-02-2012, 02:31 AM
Would have been a much closer game if Jack didn't turn into MJ for a quarter, but sometimes players get hot. Can't complain about it.

Biggest problem I'm seeing for PG is that he's over thinking everything he's doing on the court. He needs to get the ball, take two dribbles and shoot, or make a hard cut and commit to it. Everything he does starts with a soft step. Really needs to hit his spots harder and with the idea of a shot or drive. Long term I'm not worried. A lot of that comes with experience and building confidence.

clownskull
12-02-2012, 02:34 AM
Paul George has been a total dissappointment this season. He cannot score against any defender. His only points come off of uncontested breakaways or open threes. Absolutely cannot drive, create seperation and hit a midrange shot. The way he double clutches in traffic to avoid drawing a foul resulting in getting blocked or his idiotic scoop shot makes me want to go on a shooting spree.

this is a good, concise description. he never attempts a drive and yes, 95% of his points are probably open 3's and uncontested breakaways.
if someone is actually guarding him- he will pass since we know he will never attempt to drive.
of the 7 shots he took, 5 were from downtown. who does he think he is- posey?
he is far too quick for posey-ball. i wish frank would challenge him to attack at least once in a while.

but anyways, on the bright side- 2 of 3 on the road is something i can live with.

Dr. Hibbert
12-02-2012, 02:40 AM
Paul George is a human shoulder shrug out there.

rabid
12-02-2012, 03:00 AM
Just got home from the game. Pacers actually didn't look too bad, but the Warriors clearly had more energy and yes they are a better team this year than in years' past. Jarret Jack (!) was giving them great ball movement and on the defensive end they were clogging the lanes and seemed like they were able to frustrate whatever interior game we tried to get going.

Also I could have sworn I had an El Pacero sighting. I tried to get a pic but wasn't quick enough. Whomever it was had the whole blue-and-gold wrestling mask going on with a Pacers windbreaker jacket. Whomever that was, kudos!

CableKC
12-02-2012, 03:36 AM
I think Donnie and KP and have the guts to trade Paul.
KP was at the game.....watching the game in the row behind me. I should have looked over to see what his reaction was to the game...but my hope is that he is not too happy with the performance.

MvPlumlee
12-02-2012, 03:41 AM
It is naice to see Ian having some naice games in a row and the Warriors announcers
noticing one of them. :)

CableKC
12-02-2012, 03:45 AM
Disappointing loss but a 2-1 west road trip I can take.

Evidence is starting to point toward PG being a good player that doesn't have the drive to be great.
Is "drive" different than "killer instinct"?

"Drive" to me means the willingness to put in the hard work to be a good Player. Whereas "Killer instinct" refers to wanting to be "The Man"...the guy that wants to take over a game while taking that last shot to win the game. I think that GH, Granger and West fits that description. I haven't seen that at all on a consistent basis coming from PG or Hibbert.

I mentioned it in another thread....I think that PG has the skill, talent and potential to be a much better player ( as many have pointed out....TMac at the height of his game ) but doesn't have the "killer instinct" or willingness to take over a game...whereas Granger has skill and talent to be a good "Pippen" level player ( as in a clear ceiling ) and the willingness to want and take the shot.

Until he figures it out...if he does.......I think that PG is more of a Complementary Player that is far more effective as a priimary 4th / backup 3rd scoring option on the Team.

CableKC
12-02-2012, 03:48 AM
I didn't want to say anything because of the Tyler lovers but Tyler has been useless lately.
After Mahinmi got his 5 fouls....I was afraid that he'd foul out and Vogel would be forced to play Hibbert/West with Hansbrough.

CableKC
12-02-2012, 03:51 AM
The Pacers can also use some of those guards Golden state has, they can shoot, dribble and pass the ball well, the pacers don't even have one.
I'll keep on saying this til we re-sign DJ in the offseason :suicide4: , but I really hope that the Pacers make a serious run at Jarrett Jack to be the backup PG. That or just make Lance the backup PG. Seriously, Lance is not supposed to be a SG that is waiting for the ball as a Spot up shooter....he's WAY better at creating for the 2nd unit than any one else is.

CableKC
12-02-2012, 03:56 AM
Its definitely time we start seeing Ian/Roy. Tyler played way too much to start the 4th.
For some reason.....Roy sat a lot longer than I thought he should have especially in the 4th QTR. I don't think that he was in foul trouble. I really wonder if Vogel just wasn't confident in him or preferred to play Mahinmi.

As for why Hansbrough played a lot more than he should have....DW can only play so many minutes.....that and Mahinmi was in foul trouble.

CableKC
12-02-2012, 04:00 AM
It's a really weird way to use George on defense. He's a lock-down on-ball defender and a roamer. He just isn't mobile or focused enough to chase those kinds of guys around. Any of Young, Lance or Green would have made more sense. Shift PG onto Curry or Barnes. I don't know what Vogel is thinking with these kinds of matchups.
I don't think that any of them were a good matchup for Curry and Klay when it comes to running around those screens. I think that it's a combination of Curry and Klay being really good at moving without the ball and the Warriors setting good screens ( something I wish the Pacers could do ).

CableKC
12-02-2012, 04:04 AM
Also, Landry had 16 points off the bench. Quieter than Jack's, but still deadly.

http://i.imgur.com/0h6Li.png (http://imgur.com/0h6Li,wHqPX#0)
http://i.imgur.com/wHqPX.png (http://www.nba.com/games/20121201/INDGSW/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore)
Watching a lot of Warriors games....I knew that they would beat us cuz of our inconsistent scoring ( whether it comes from our Starters or Bench Players ) because of their bench Players like Jack and Landry. They close out games with Curry, Klay, Lee, Landry and whoever else is doing good in teh game. 4 of their Closers are very efficient scorers that can kill you on the offensive end that are good at scoring on their closing possessions. Given that PG was a HUGE GOOSE-EGG on the offensive end.....I'm not surprised in the least that we lost. As someone here pointed out....this Warriors Team is actually a good Team.

If Lance is out of the equation as backup PG next season ( I don't want him to be anything other than that ), then I really hope the Pacers make a run at both Jack ( UFA ) and Landry ( Player Option ) to improve the 2nd unit.

CableKC
12-02-2012, 04:08 AM
Just got home from the game. Pacers actually didn't look too bad, but the Warriors clearly had more energy and yes they are a better team this year than in years' past. Jarret Jack (!) was giving them great ball movement and on the defensive end they were clogging the lanes and seemed like they were able to frustrate whatever interior game we tried to get going.

Also I could have sworn I had an El Pacero sighting. I tried to get a pic but wasn't quick enough. Whomever it was had the whole blue-and-gold wrestling mask going on with a Pacers windbreaker jacket. Whomever that was, kudos!
Yes, it was El Pacero. Who else would be dressed up in a Blue and Gold mask carrying a Gold Wrestling belt? ;)

You should have come over....Seth, Gnome, Mrs. Gnome ( Lisa ) and I were sitting in the same section with him ( but in different rows ).

D-BONE
12-02-2012, 09:14 AM
Move in for a ****ing 17 footer already. This obsession with every open perimeter look needing to be from deep is driving me crazy. We don't have those type of shooters (i.e. Curry & Thompson profile).

D-BONE
12-02-2012, 09:17 AM
Exactly. They have bench guys who are legit, proven scorers. Pacers bench has 0. Big issue for us. Low experience, low leadership, horribly inconsistent offense (if any).

Mr_Smith
12-02-2012, 09:20 AM
Went to bed at halftime and I'm glad I did. Really surprised to see Paul George get a goose egg. Probably would have won if he could have scored some points.

D-BONE
12-02-2012, 09:25 AM
Totally agree about banishing DJ to the bench and handing over b/u point to Lance. Only problem is we don't have enough guys playing worth crap to fill out a roster. I think TPTB should try to get at least a temporary solution by finding a vet who could at least come in and play some filler minutes. Already missed out on Pietrus though.

If we have to continue with the current crop with, mercifully, no more DJ minutes, I guess maybe its something like this.

Starters: Hill, PG, Young, West, Roy
Bench: Lance, Green, Tyler, Foul Magnet Mahinmi (He did have a good game, but it does get frustrating)

Just rotate those 9. No more DJ, please. Problem is Hansbrough is lost. What the hell is up with him not being able to hit a 16 footer? In college he could do it, no? It's just a FT for crying out loud.

Also, in fairness given my opinion to this point, Green did enough positive things tonight to be noticeable (to me). That said, given Granger's injury, he has to find a way to give us more offense, more consistent 3s (which is what I thought to be one of his claims to fame), and just more overall impact on the game. Although, since I don't see him as a true 3 pt shooter so far anyway, why not try and 18 footer and see if you get some rhythm going?

D-BONE
12-02-2012, 09:27 AM
Should have made a run at Landry this year.

LetsTalkPacers84
12-02-2012, 10:56 AM
:(

CJ Jones
12-02-2012, 11:04 AM
Totally agree about banishing DJ to the bench and handing over b/u point to Lance. Only problem is we don't have enough guys playing worth crap to fill out a roster. I think TPTB should try to get at least a temporary solution by finding a vet who could at least come in and play some filler minutes. Already missed out on Pietrus though.

If we have to continue with the current crop with, mercifully, no more DJ minutes, I guess maybe its something like this.

Starters: Hill, PG, Young, West, Roy
Bench: Lance, Green, Tyler, Foul Magnet Mahinmi (He did have a good game, but it does get frustrating)

Just rotate those 9. No more DJ, please. Problem is Hansbrough is lost. What the hell is up with him not being able to hit a 16 footer? In college he could do it, no? It's just a FT for crying out loud.

Also, in fairness given my opinion to this point, Green did enough positive things tonight to be noticeable (to me). That said, given Granger's injury, he has to find a way to give us more offense, more consistent 3s (which is what I thought to be one of his claims to fame), and just more overall impact on the game. Although, since I don't see him as a true 3 pt shooter so far anyway, why not try and 18 footer and see if you get some rhythm going?

I'm with you. What happened to our guys playing more minutes this year? We don't even have a guy averaging 36 a game and we're without our top scorer. This 10 man rotations gotta go. There's no way our wings can get into a rhythm in Frank's boring offense playing 20 something mpg and only getting up a shot every 5 minutes. Here's my eight man rotation... probably unrealistic but I'm tired of watching DJ and Tyler. I might give them a 4 or 5 mpg occasionally if guys were tired.

Hill 38/Lance 10
Lance 20/ Young 20/George 8
George 28/Green 20
West 36/Ian 12
Hibbert 32/ Ian 16

Hill 38 minutes
Lance 30
Young 20
Green 20
George 36
West 36
Ian 28
Hibbert 32

Sparhawk
12-02-2012, 11:10 AM
I'll keep on saying this til we re-sign DJ in the offseason :suicide4: , but I really hope that the Pacers make a serious run at Jarrett Jack to be the backup PG. That or just make Lance the backup PG. Seriously, Lance is not supposed to be a SG that is waiting for the ball as a Spot up shooter....he's WAY better at creating for the 2nd unit than any one else is.

I can only thank this once, but I'd do it 100 times if possible. Lance is seriously being underutilized.

Pacers need the Jack Attack next year.

CJ Jones
12-02-2012, 11:11 AM
Lance immediately getting pulled after his 8th point in the 1st qtr. (a nice post move) then getting 1 shot the rest of the game is the kinda crap I'm talking about. Give these young guys more minutes and let em play when they get it going.

Sparhawk
12-02-2012, 11:11 AM
For some reason.....Roy sat a lot longer than I thought he should have especially in the 4th QTR. I don't think that he was in foul trouble. I really wonder if Vogel just wasn't confident in him or preferred to play Mahinmi.

As for why Hansbrough played a lot more than he should have....DW can only play so many minutes.....that and Mahinmi was in foul trouble.

2 words. Pendergraph, Plumlee

Give them a shot. Tyler is worthless.

Sparhawk
12-02-2012, 11:14 AM
Lance immediately getting pulled after his 8th point in the 1st qtr. (a nice post move) then getting 1 shot the rest of the game is the kinda crap I'm talking about. Give these young guys more minutes and let em play when they get it going.

lance is getting minutes. Vogel just isn't letting the Lance play his game. He's bottling him up and that doesn't work. He needs to create for himself and others.

Vogel is a terrible coach.

Sparhawk
12-02-2012, 11:14 AM
Pacers only have 2 wins against teams with a record above 0.500.

BobbyMac
12-02-2012, 11:24 AM
Or at least that's how they look in the Warriors system.

PS: Altough, I'd love to have Klay.
Klay took 23 shots to get 22 points.

BobbyMac
12-02-2012, 11:26 AM
As usual, many of you are over reacting to a loss. GS is a good team and we were playing a back to back on the road. We lost....big deal. Don't get too high after a win, don't get too low after a loss.

Justin Tyme
12-02-2012, 12:26 PM
Evidence is starting to point toward PG being a good player that doesn't have the drive to be great.


Very apropo description of Paul... unfortunately.

Justin Tyme
12-02-2012, 12:29 PM
Jax is doing a great job so far this season.


GRRR! AND at 5.5 mil. Darn you Bird.

Justin Tyme
12-02-2012, 12:47 PM
The Pacers can also use some of those guards Golden state has, they can shoot, dribble and pass the ball well, the pacers don't even have one.



They have shooters who are scorers. Their backcourt scored 60 pts or 58% of their 103 points. Those 60 points came on 23 of 38 shooting. That doesn't even include Jenkins 1-1 shooting.

They shot at will with little worry from Pacer defenders. There was a reason Jerry West liked Klay Thompson in the draft. He recognizes a good BB player when he sees one. Drafted at #11 he is a better player than almost every player drafted before him.

West always thought highly of Mike Conley too.

Justin Tyme
12-02-2012, 12:53 PM
Also, Landry had 16 points off the bench. Quieter than Jack's, but still deadly.

http://i.imgur.com/0h6Li.png (http://imgur.com/0h6Li,wHqPX#0)
http://i.imgur.com/wHqPX.png (http://www.nba.com/games/20121201/INDGSW/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore)


Carl is having a good season. So many posters here never wanted Landry, but each season he continues to produce.

BlueNGold
12-02-2012, 01:00 PM
The future is apparently a goose egg. Paul George is a huge disappointment. Instead of a break out year, he's having a break down.

Perhaps we could trade him for Brandon Rush.

BlueNGold
12-02-2012, 01:02 PM
Paul George is a human shoulder shrug out there.

We are looking at the new Brandon Rush...but without the good perimeter shot. Very much over-rated.

Justin Tyme
12-02-2012, 01:05 PM
Pacers need the Jack Attack next year.

I'd love to have Jack back, but I don't see the Pacers having the money or if they do willing to spend the money Jack will want for a b/u PG.

vnzla81
12-02-2012, 01:09 PM
I'd love to have Jack back, but I don't see the Pacers having the money or if they do willing to spend the money Jack will want for a b/u PG.

Pacers won't have cap space to get anybody once they give West the extension.

vnzla81
12-02-2012, 01:11 PM
@ZachLowe_NBA: Interesting Jackson kept Curry on the floor after two instant fouls. Also: Has Indy passed DET as NBA's most stylistically unappealing team?

vnzla81
12-02-2012, 01:28 PM
@ZachLowe_NBA: Three of Indiana's four rotation big men are shooting below 40 percent. /barfs

clownskull
12-02-2012, 03:36 PM
I'll keep on saying this til we re-sign DJ in the offseason :suicide4: , but I really hope that the Pacers make a serious run at Jarrett Jack to be the backup PG. That or just make Lance the backup PG. Seriously, Lance is not supposed to be a SG that is waiting for the ball as a Spot up shooter....he's WAY better at creating for the 2nd unit than any one else is.

he's also our best guy at creating his own shot and attacking the basket.

Nuntius
12-02-2012, 04:27 PM
Klay took 23 shots to get 22 points.

Yeah, that's what I was posting in another thread as well. Klay scores a lot but he also shoots quite a lot as well.

beast23
12-02-2012, 06:15 PM
Pacers won't have cap space to get anybody once they give West the extension.

The Pacers will not have much room under the SALARY cap even if they don't give West a new contract. All they will gain is wiggle room under the luxury tax threshold.

D-BONE
12-02-2012, 06:59 PM
Yeah, that's what I was posting in another thread as well. Klay scores a lot but he also shoots quite a lot as well.a

But every time he gets an open look, especially from distance, the opponent and their fans absolutely cringe. That's a dimension we don't have.

CableKC
12-02-2012, 11:58 PM
I can only thank this once, but I'd do it 100 times if possible. Lance is seriously being underutilized.

Pacers need the Jack Attack next year.
If the answer to what the best role for Lance to play on the Team is being the backup PG ( or specifically the guy controlling the ball when he's on the floor ) as opposed to being a backup SG ( as in the guy waiting for the ball to shoot the ball ), then that will tell you whether we should pursue Jarrett Jack or not next year as the backup PG.

There is no need to pursue Jarrett if there is an intention for Lance to play the role of the Backup PG.

IMHO....I think that Lance could develop into a much better ball-handler and shot-creator....hence requiring him to have the ball in his hands when he's on the floor....and therefore fulfill the backup PG role....thus negating the need for Jarrett. This also means that I don't think that Lance is better suited to be a backup SG.

However, I would have no problem passing on Lance and signing Jarrett for $4 mil a year due to his experience, defense, shooting and ability to execute.

Pacerized
12-03-2012, 12:35 AM
The Pacers will not have much room under the SALARY cap even if they don't give West a new contract. All they will gain is wiggle room under the luxury tax threshold.

Until Walsh is gone, I don't want us to have any cap space. Just keep West and wait until someone else is in charge for any free agent moves. After this summer I have no faith at all in Walsh or Pritchard.

CableKC
12-03-2012, 04:30 AM
Carl is having a good season. So many posters here never wanted Landry, but each season he continues to produce.
He's what I wish Hansbrough was.

Justin Tyme
12-03-2012, 11:37 AM
However, I would have no problem passing on Lance and signing Jarrett for $4 mil a year due to his experience, defense, shooting and ability to execute.


DREAMER!!

He's in for a big payday this off season.

I wouldn't mind if Lance was the b/u PG to Hill. It might come to fruition when Granger comes back, and Lance is moved back to the bench. I'm beginning to feel there might be some validity about Vogel having a short leash on Lance. Can Vogel have enough confidence in letting Lance be the b/u PG?

Ace E.Anderson
12-03-2012, 11:47 AM
Carl is having a good season. So many posters here never wanted Landry, but each season he continues to produce.

The past 3 offseasons I've been saying this is a guy we need to bring in. Great toughness, and scoring ability. A lot of ppl point to his lack of rebounding and defense, but he's improved on both of those skills immensely.

GS got an absolute STEAL for 2 yrs 10 MIL (if I remember correctly)

d_c
12-03-2012, 12:13 PM
The past 3 offseasons I've been saying this is a guy we need to bring in. Great toughness, and scoring ability. A lot of ppl point to his lack of rebounding and defense, but he's improved on both of those skills immensely.

GS got an absolute STEAL for 2 yrs 10 MIL (if I remember correctly)

He got a 2 year, $8M deal with an opt out after the first. And he's going to definitely opt out (barring injury obviously). The Warriors definitely got a bargain, but it will only be a one year bargain. He's 29 years old now and will sure to be seeking his last big pay day.

Hicks
12-03-2012, 12:21 PM
I wish Jack and Landry were the Pacers' backup 1 and 4.

Hicks
12-03-2012, 12:22 PM
He got a 2 year, $8M deal with an opt out after the first. And he's going to definitely opt out (barring injury obviously). The Warriors definitely got a bargain, but it will only be a one year bargain. He's 29 years old now and will sure to be seeking his last big pay day.

How much do you see a team paying him on average annually? There are a lot of PGs out there right now. Is a bad team really going to pay him more than 6 per?

d_c
12-03-2012, 08:56 PM
How much do you see a team paying him on average annually? There are a lot of PGs out there right now. Is a bad team really going to pay him more than 6 per?

The poster I responded to was talking about Landry, not Jack (as I presume you were). Landry is a low post scorer who has shown he can score in the 4th quarter. There is always a market for that. He'll get a good contract. As a backup PG, Jack won't get as much.

Keep in mind the FA market in 2013 will be relatively weak so both guys will get a better deal than they normally would.

aamcguy
12-03-2012, 09:19 PM
The poster I responded to was talking about Landry, not Jack (as I presume you were). Landry is a low post scorer who has shown he can score in the 4th quarter. There is always a market for that. He'll get a good contract. As a backup PG, Jack won't get as much.

Keep in mind the FA market in 2013 will be relatively weak so both guys will get a better deal than they normally would.

However, Jack always seems to play lots of important minutes wherever he's at. He's a true combo guard and will get paid as a fringe starter / 6th man more than a backup I think.

CableKC
12-03-2012, 09:37 PM
DREAMER!!

He's in for a big payday this off season.

I wouldn't mind if Lance was the b/u PG to Hill. It might come to fruition when Granger comes back, and Lance is moved back to the bench. I'm beginning to feel there might be some validity about Vogel having a short leash on Lance. Can Vogel have enough confidence in letting Lance be the b/u PG?
I will continue to dream ;)

Jack has done the same exact thing this last season in Oakland that he has done over the last 2 seasons in NOLA.....he's been a solid "Backup PG" and a decent "Emergency Starting PG". Doing this last season with NOLA got him a $4 mil contract with GSW....to me, he hasn't done anything beyond what he has already done before.

IMHO....the market already set what his value is....anything beyond $4mil would be overpaying.

Ace E.Anderson
12-03-2012, 10:01 PM
How much do you see a team paying him on average annually? There are a lot of PGs out there right now. Is a bad team really going to pay him more than 6 per?

We were talkin bout Landry

CableKC
12-03-2012, 10:33 PM
I wish Jack and Landry were the Pacers' backup 1 and 4.
If the FO gives up on Lance and Hansbrough ( which isn't out of the question ), maybe we can wait til next year and make a run at them ( assuming that Landry opts out of his Player Contract ). :pray:

beast23
12-03-2012, 11:30 PM
If the FO gives up on Lance and Hansbrough ( which isn't out of the question ), maybe we can wait til next year and make a run at them ( assuming that Landry opts out of his Player Contract ). :pray:
That would be great. I was hoping for the Pacers to acquire both in summers past.

Except for one thing. I doubt we will have the cap space to get it done.

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2012, 02:29 AM
Look at the production of Hans and the contract of Hans and the age of Hans. "Give up"? More like face reality.

They can't afford his production levels anymore. Lance has improved so you can still ride him out and see where it's headed, but the writing is on the wall for Tyler pretty obviously.

But this won't get them Landry money. Didn't Jack get let go so they could afford to pay Marquis instead? Plus it was a way to appease TJ (and maybe JOB)? There was no good reason to let Jack go, that's what sucks so much about it.

Hicks
12-04-2012, 10:26 AM
I thought it had to do with the contract ever so slightly nudging us into luxury tax territory or something like that.

Sparhawk
12-04-2012, 11:46 AM
I thought it had to do with the contract ever so slightly nudging us into luxury tax territory or something like that.

Yeah, I thought it was that they couldn't afford him.

I'd still like JJ brought back in. He's making about $5.5M this season. I'm not sure he will get more than that since he's been a backup most of his career. I do hope the Pacers offer him a contract for multiple years at around $5M. More years might get him.

If DJ is costing the Pacers $3.5M to suck, then a couple more million will look like a bargain. Unless they drafte Pierre Jackson in the second round and go for a very cheap option.

Hicks
12-04-2012, 12:06 PM
We have to re-sign West, and I double-checked with Tim Donahue about it to confirm we can go over the cap to do so and we would then apparently also get the MLE to use right away (I thought maybe you only got that starting the year AFTER you spent yourself up to and over the cap), which means we could theoretically throw Jack an offer starting at $5m or so. I'd do it. I doubt they will. Maybe I'm wrong?

Ace E.Anderson
12-04-2012, 12:21 PM
We have to re-sign West, and I double-checked with Tim Donahue about it to confirm we can go over the cap to do so and we would then apparently also get the MLE to use right away (I thought maybe you only got that starting the year AFTER you spent yourself up to and over the cap), which means we could theoretically throw Jack an offer starting at $5m or so. I'd do it. I doubt they will. Maybe I'm wrong?

I like this idea, but I think we desperately need a good shooter/scorer. Whether its for the bench, or within the starting lineup, we NEED someone who is a consistent shooter and or scorer. JJ is a very good b/u PG, but I think we could put Lance within that role and he would be able to do pretty well and maybe even develop into a taller/cheaper version of JJ.

But as of right now with the wing rotation of George, Green, and Young, we lack a consistent shooting/scoring threat. Danny coming back will obviously help, but what happens if Danny comes back and isn't the same player he once was?

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2012, 02:35 PM
Well they have a good shooter/scorer, and that's Granger or the money they wouldn't be paying Granger if his career was over due to injury (the only reason he wouldn't be here scoring, barring a trade).


I obviously agree that you must bring back West. He's the whole reason you save up cap space to begin with - a great AS caliber scoring vet. Yes he might only have 4-5 years left, who knows, but he's not about to just drop off the planet tomorrow as a skilled player. He looks to be in his prime and maybe 2-3 years away from decline.

I'd love a JJack type of player and they are out there. You never know.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 03:10 PM
Well they have a good shooter/scorer, and that's Granger or the money they wouldn't be paying Granger if his career was over due to injury (the only reason he wouldn't be here scoring, barring a trade).

It's the NBA not the NFL were you can cut players with injuries I'm pretty sure you know this.



I obviously agree that you must bring back West. He's the whole reason you save up cap space to begin with - a great AS caliber scoring vet. Yes he might only have 4-5 years left, who knows, but he's not about to just drop off the planet tomorrow as a skilled player. He looks to be in his prime and maybe 2-3 years away from decline.

I'd love a JJack type of player and they are out there. You never know.

4 or 5 years left and is still in his prime? lol

Pacers should think about bringing Foster back then because "he is just in his prime at 33", or JO "in his prime at 34", how about Tinsley? "In his prime at 34", maybe Reggie is still "in his prime"? :crazy:

repole
12-04-2012, 03:13 PM
Also, in fairness given my opinion to this point, Green did enough positive things tonight to be noticeable (to me). That said, given Granger's injury, he has to find a way to give us more offense, more consistent 3s (which is what I thought to be one of his claims to fame), and just more overall impact on the game. Although, since I don't see him as a true 3 pt shooter so far anyway, why not try and 18 footer and see if you get some rhythm going?

Green's overly tentative right now, his confidence isn't there, he's thinking too much, and Vogel isn't running plays that take advantage of his strengths for him. When/if things get going for him, he'll look like much more of a pure shooter. As bad as his shot has looked, he's actually hitting it at a solid rate from 3 (37%). I'll keep saying it, but I'd like to see him posted up a couple times a game. Get him in space, one or two dribbles from the basket, and he's capable of being very effective.


The thing I hate most about this offense is the complete lack of pace. You've got athletes like George and Green on the wings, a guy in Lance who loves to push it, a PG in Hill who's actually looked pretty solid in the open court, and yet this team is 26th in the NBA in pace. Bleh. I know the team isn't brimming with athleticism compared to say, Miami, but there's no reason they should be playing THIS slow. Especially because it's clear they don't have enough shot creators in the half court, they should be doing everything in their power to push the ball and try and get offense before the defense sets.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 03:14 PM
It's the NBA not the NFL were you can cut players with injuries I'm pretty sure you know this.






If Danny is injured and a doc says he can never play again, why wouldn't he retire? His deal is covered by insurance.

Since86
12-04-2012, 03:19 PM
West's best statistical season. (08-09)
39.2mpg 21ppg 47fg% 8.5rpg 2.3apg 0.9bpg

West this season.
34.3mpg 17.8ppg 49.2fg% 8.3rpg 2.5bpg 1.2bpg

Yeah, West is really on the decline, and not in his prime. Look at that, statistics just nose dive.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 03:20 PM
West's best statistical season. (08-09)
39.2mpg 21ppg 47fg% 8.5rpg 2.3apg 0.9bpg

West this season.
34.3mpg 17.8ppg 49.2fg% 8.3rpg 2.5bpg 2.5apg


Yeah, West is really on the decline, and not in his prime. Look at that, statistics just nose dive.

He's done.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 03:24 PM
West's best statistical season. (08-09)
39.2mpg 21ppg 47fg% 8.5rpg 2.3apg 0.9bpg

West this season.
34.3mpg 17.8ppg 49.2fg% 8.3rpg 2.5bpg 1.2bpg

Yeah, West is really on the decline, and not in his prime. Look at that, statistics just nose dive.

I don't expect those numbers to stay that high once the Pacers start to play real teams, his numbers are pretty good but against who? keep trying though.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 03:30 PM
Let's spin the Vnzla excuse wheel, oh today, we got "Quality of competition". Past responses for David West not being worth re-signing have been age, injury history, and murdering puppies! Tell 'em what he's won Vanna!

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 03:39 PM
Let's spin the Vnzla excuse wheel, oh today, we got "Quality of competition". Past responses for David West not being worth re-signing have been age, injury history, and murdering puppies! Tell 'em what he's won Vanna!

Not excuses is the facts, the guy is playing great and looks like an all star so far but against who? and yes age is a motive for not resigning a player to a long contract see Foster, how many of you wanted to resign Foster "because he still had game left in him"? how many times me and Justintyme told you that it was the wrong thing to do? "Foster is only in his prime so they need to resigning him" same bs different player and at the end the Pacers screwed it all up as always.

By the way I would like to see a list of players that are still in their primes at age 33,34,35,36 and 37 that are still in the NBA and are not hall of famers, I'll be waiting.

bunt
12-04-2012, 03:43 PM
Let's spin the Vnzla excuse wheel, oh today, we got "Quality of competition". Past responses for David West not being worth re-signing have been age, injury history, and murdering puppies! Tell 'em what he's won Vanna!

Hey, he can't help it if he's the only poster on PD that's not wearing the Blue & Gold glasses and the only one telling it like it is!

Besides, even though West is shooting a better percentage this year, he used to make more shots with nothing but net. But this year he has to rely on the backboard and friendly rolls on the rim with his declining skills.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 03:45 PM
Not excuses is the facts, the guy is playing great and looks like an all star so far but against who? and yes age is a motive for not resigning a player to a long contract see Foster, how many of you wanted to resign Foster "because he still had game left in him"? how many times me and Justintyme told you that it was the wrong thing to do? "Foster is only in his prime so they need to resigning him" same bs different player and at the end the Pacers screwed it all up as always.

By the way I would like to see a list of players that are still in their primes at age 33,34,35,36 and 37 that are still in the NBA and are not hall of famers, I'll be waiting.

West has been consistently good whether we are playing the Spurs or the Wizards so far. He put up 22 and 8 against SAS .

bunt
12-04-2012, 03:46 PM
He put up 22 and 8 against SAS .

Uh oh, better get that wheel back out!

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 03:51 PM
West has been consistently good whether we are playing the Spurs or the Wizards so far. He put up 22 and 8 against SAS .

I'm still waiting for that list.

10 and 11 against SA in a blowout game and 22 and 8 in the second game.

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 03:53 PM
Hey, he can't help it if he's the only poster on PD that's not wearing the Blue & Gold glasses and the only one telling it like it is!

Besides, even though West is shooting a better percentage this year, he used to make more shots with nothing but net. But this year he has to rely on the backboard and friendly rolls on the rim with his declining skills.

He also used to play with Chris Paul

Since86
12-04-2012, 03:53 PM
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/david_west/game_by_game_stats.html

It's within reach, if you're actually wanting to look.

Atlanta is the 4th best defensive fg% team in the league. 20pts on 50% shooting.
Minn is the 6th best defensive fg% team in the league. 19pts on 50% shooting.
GSW is 7th. 23pts on 62% shooting.
SAS is 9th. 10pts on 45% shooting. 22pts on 54% shooting.
Dallas is 11th. 15pts on 45% shooting.
Lakers are 12th. 16pts on 44% shooting.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 04:16 PM
Two different issues being talked about here.

No one can argue that West has been anything other than a bad a** all year. All statistics and your eyes will tell you that.

No one can argue that a physical, brawny PF who is 32, still has "years" in his prime. All previous data around career trajectories of PF's will tell you that.

Look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_and_youngest_National_Basketball_As sociation_players#Active

He would be really breaking the mold. The two players that defeat this logic that are active are: Tim Duncan and Rasheed Wallace.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 04:49 PM
Two different issues being talked about here.

No one can argue that West has been anything other than a bad a** all year. All statistics and your eyes will tell you that.

No one can argue that a physical, brawny PF who is 32, still has "years" in his prime. All previous data around career trajectories of PF's will tell you that.

Look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_and_youngest_National_Basketball_As sociation_players#Active

He would be really breaking the mold. The two players that defeat this logic that are active are: Tim Duncan and Rasheed Wallace.

Thanks for the list, that's my point people are hoping for West to be the one to break the mold, that's not more than just wishful thinking nothing else.

Since86
12-04-2012, 05:03 PM
Seth says DWest is still in his prime, and has 2-3years left. Vnlza disagrees with him. Docpaul comes in and says
No one can argue that a physical, brawny PF who is 32, still has "years" in his prime. All previous data around career trajectories of PF's will tell you that.



Vnlza then uses it as proof as to why Seth is wrong, and he is right. :laugh: This is twice within 2hrs that you've used docpaul contradicting your point, as proof that your point is right.

Atleast this time it's not coupled with you complaining about someone else always thinking they're right.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm still waiting for that list.

10 and 11 against SA in a blowout game and 22 and 8 in the second game.

Still waiting on what list?

If I waited on all the things I had asked you to support or prove over the years, I would be old and dead before I ever did anything else in my life.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 05:12 PM
Seth says DWest is still in his prime, and has 2-3years left. Vnlza disagrees with him. Docpaul comes in and says

Vnlza then uses it as proof as to why Seth is wrong, and he is right. :laugh: This is twice within 2hrs that you've used docpaul contradicting your point, as proof that your point is right.

Atleast this time it's not coupled with you complaining about someone else always thinking they're right.

I didn't agree with his whole point, if you take your time to look at the list he provided instead of wasting your time looking at numbers and trying to ridicule people you could be able to see that, try again.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 05:13 PM
Still waiting on what list?

If I waited on all the things I had asked you to support or prove over the years, I would be old and dead before I ever did anything else in my life.

Don't worry somebody already posted the list of players.

Since86
12-04-2012, 05:16 PM
I didn't agree with his whole point, if you take your time to look at the list he provided instead of wasting your time looking at numbers and trying to ridicule people you could be able to see that, try again.

The list backs up that point!!!

The whole point of the list is to show that players decline when they're on the other side of 35. West is 32, giving him 3more years left before he declines. Which is exactly what Seth said, and exactly what you disagreed with. You laughed that he had 4-5 years left.

32+3years of prime makes 35. 1-2 more years of decline makes 37. Putting West on the same path as every player not named Tim or Rasheed, on that list.

Doc's entire post backs up what Seth said, and contradicts your point.

If you'd notice PP is the youngest on that list at the age of 35.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 05:28 PM
The list backs up that point!!!

The whole point of the list is to show that players decline when they're on the other side of 35. West is 32, giving him 3more years left before he declines. Which is exactly what Seth said, and exactly what you disagreed with. You laughed that he had 4-5 years left.

32+3years of prime makes 35. 1-2 more years of decline makes 37. Putting West on the same path as every player not named Tim or Rasheed, on that list.

Doc's entire post backs up what Seth said, and contradicts your point.

If you'd notice PP is the youngest on that list at the age of 35.

It's still making my point, a lot of those players posted are role players or hall of famers, I have a feeling that you guys are thinking a different meaning of "prime" than me.

Now if you expect to sign West to a huge contract to be a role player I don't know what to tell you.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 05:28 PM
Guys, you might want to take a look at this good post from BillS.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?77145-When-the-Going-Gets-Tough-Some-Guidelines-Clarifications&p=1530077&viewfull=1#post1530077

Basketball topics are a lot more fun than reading posts criticizing each other's communication styles. :)

Since86
12-04-2012, 05:34 PM
I'm not criticizing him for his style of communication. He has a horrible habit of either dismissing anything that contradicts his point, or trying to change a contradictory point into his point. It's just funny to read day after day.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 05:41 PM
Since86, I think just about everyone on this thread (except for me of course, LOL) has some valid points. Folks are just missing each other, looking to "win the internet" or something.

West has been a beast this year.

West still has some good game in him for sure.

West has a lot of wear on his tires, especially given the kind of game he plays.

Previous data around "life expectancies" of NBA power forwards shows a fairly consistent cliff of decline as a player enters into his 30's.

IMO, based on all of this... I personally would love to see West around past this year.

The thought of a 4 or maybe even a 3 year high priced contract makes me very very nervous though. It's playing against the odds.

I sure would love another 10 mil / 2 year deal though! He's got a great contract right now for us. The *perfect* deal last year would have been 10 x 3 years.

billbradley
12-04-2012, 05:57 PM
Would West even consider discussing an extension?

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 05:57 PM
Since86, I think just about everyone on this thread (except for me of course, LOL) has some valid points. Folks are just missing each other, looking to "win the internet" or something.

West has been a beast this year.

West still has some good game in him for sure.

West has a lot of wear on his tires, especially given the kind of game he plays.

Previous data around "life expectancies" of NBA power forwards shows a fairly consistent cliff of decline as a player enters into his 30's.

IMO, based on all of this... I personally would love to see West around past this year.

The thought of a 4 or maybe even a 3 year high priced contract makes me very very nervous though. It's playing against the odds.

I sure would love another 10 mil / 2 year deal though! He's got a great contract right now for us. The *perfect* deal last year would have been 10 x 3 years.

I 100% agree with the highlighted part, signing West to a 3 or 4 years deal to me is a huge mistake, I don't expect him to sign anything less than 4 years next year, some teams are going to be all over him.

billbradley
12-04-2012, 05:59 PM
I 100% agree with the highlighted part, signing West to a 3 or 4 years deal to me is a huge mistake, I don't expect him to sign anything less than 4 years next year, some teams are going to be all over him.

In all fairness, you thought signing West the first time would be a huge mistake. If we get a solid 2 more years out of him, what's wrong with a three year deal?

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 06:23 PM
I'm not criticizing him for his style of communication. He has a horrible habit of either dismissing anything that contradicts his point, or trying to change a contradictory point into his point. It's just funny to read day after day.

I'm not dismissing the point, it looks to me like sometimes you are worry about ridiculing me instead of just reading what I'm actually saying, you love to argue and you have an ax to grind for some reason.

Here is the list docpaul posted so you get a clear view of what I was talking about:


Kurt Thomas Role player at 33 and beyond.

Grant Hill Role player.

Jason Kidd Hall of famer.

Steve Nash Hall of famer.

Marcus Camby Role player at 34 and beyond, he is still a big man that can block shots, rebound and defend and NBA teams love those players.

Derek Fisher role player.


Rasheed Wallace was scoring 15ppg at the age of 31 and declined all the way down to 12ppg at the age of 32.


Jerry Stackhouse Role player since the age of 29.


Ray Allen HOF


Andre Miller role player since the age of 32.


Tim Duncan HOF


Kevin Garnett HOF


Antawn Jamison He is in the same boat as West, good numbers in a not so good team.


Raja Bell role player.


Chauncey Billups HOF


Vince Carter HOF


Pablo Prigioni role player.


Manu Ginóbili HOF.


Nazr Mohammed Role player.


Jason Terry role player, 6th man.


Paul Pierce HOF.

Hicks
12-04-2012, 07:27 PM
West's best statistical season. (08-09)
39.2mpg 21ppg 47fg% 8.5rpg 2.3apg 0.9bpg

West this season.
34.3mpg 17.8ppg 49.2fg% 8.3rpg 2.5bpg 1.2bpg

Yeah, West is really on the decline, and not in his prime. Look at that, statistics just nose dive.

Check him out on basketball-reference.com and look at his annual per-36 numbers. He's been remarkably consistent for many years now. Even last year, his "down year", he was almost as good save for slightly worse FG% and 2 fewer FGA's per game, if I recall correctly.

He's definitely undeserving of the 'declining' label.

Hicks
12-04-2012, 07:31 PM
Would West even consider discussing an extension?

I'm not sure that's possible. I think with it only being a 2 year contract, he will definitely be a free agent. Though I know we can go over the cap to keep him. Not sure if he's restricted or unrestricted, though.

d_c
12-04-2012, 07:47 PM
I'm not sure that's possible. I think with it only being a 2 year contract, he will definitely be a free agent. Though I know we can go over the cap to keep him. Not sure if he's restricted or unrestricted, though.

He an unrestricted FA. Only guy's who are restricted are those coming off their first contract.

count55
12-04-2012, 08:38 PM
I'm not sure that's possible. I think with it only being a 2 year contract, he will definitely be a free agent. Though I know we can go over the cap to keep him. Not sure if he's restricted or unrestricted, though.

Extensions can only be offered on contracts of 4 years or greater in length. West will become an unrestricted free agent, and the Pacers will hold early Bird rights. This would allow them to offer a contract starting at up to 175% of his current pay. Since they are unlikely to offer anything approaching the $17.5mm that allows - or much if any more than the $10mm to start, should they try to re-sign him - the early Bird rights are the same as full Bird rights as a practical matter in this case.

If the Pacers were to let West walk at the end of the season, it's difficult to tell how much cap space they would actually have. Much would depend on where the cap lands. It will probably be somewhere between the current $58mm and $60mm. Given holds for draft picks and roster charges, you're probably looking at perhaps $5 to $7mm in room. That's very rough, but probably a safe guesstimate.

If they re-sign West, then they'd have their MLE, BAE, and Min to add pieces.

Any trades obviously change the math.

Since86
12-05-2012, 10:11 AM
I'm not dismissing the point, it looks to me like sometimes you are worry about ridiculing me instead of just reading what I'm actually saying, you love to argue and you have an ax to grind for some reason.

Here is the list docpaul posted so you get a clear view of what I was talking about:

Reposting the list doesn't add anything to your point, but thanks.

HickeyS2000
12-05-2012, 10:19 AM
Can we all agree that if we are relying on DWest to be our best player in 3 years the Pacers are screwed? I expect West to be around the 4th option at that point, but I don't see anything in his game that won't age well. I think he can play effectively until he is 38 or so if his knee holds up.

Eleazar
12-05-2012, 10:24 AM
For me, my concern with re-signing West has less to do with how he will play under the contract, and more to do with how we will replace him once the contract is up. At that point hopefully both George and Granger will be worth 10+ million, and Lance, Green, and Mahinmi all hopefully work out. This would also be about when you would expect this team to be one of the favorites to win the championship. That isn't going to leave a lot of room to sign a starting PF. At that point our only real hope would be draft or trade. Right now I am kind of leaning towards finding a long term solution this offseason, but don't hold me to that as tomorrow I am likely to want to re-sign West. Either way though we all should know, re-signing West is a short term solution. Maybe it is better to take the short term, and hope to figure out the long term later.

Since86
12-05-2012, 10:32 AM
Can we all agree that if we are relying on DWest to be our best player in 3 years the Pacers are screwed? I expect West to be around the 4th option at that point, but I don't see anything in his game that won't age well. I think he can play effectively until he is 38 or so if his knee holds up.

Bingo. The only thing that is a big concern as West ages is his defense. He'll be able to score the ball at an efficient pace though, because his game is already athletically challenged. It revolves around positioning and leverage.

McKeyFan
12-05-2012, 10:35 AM
For me, my concern with re-signing West has less to do with how he will play under the contract, and more to do with how we will replace him once the contract is up. At that point hopefully both George and Granger will be worth 10+ million, and Lance, Green, and Mahinmi all hopefully work out. This would also be about when you would expect this team to be one of the favorites to win the championship. That isn't going to leave a lot of room to sign a starting PF. At that point our only real hope would be draft or trade. Right now I am kind of leaning towards finding a long term solution this offseason, but don't hold me to that as tomorrow I am likely to want to re-sign West. Either way though we all should know, re-signing West is a short term solution. Maybe it is better to take the short term, and hope to figure out the long term later.
If Lance continues to progress, and if PG moves toward what we saw last night, then it seems like moving Danny to the 4 and letting West move on is a real option:

Hill
Lance
PG
Danny
Hibbert

THAT is a bad@ss defensive unit. We would lose West's awesome offense, but if PG and Lance have stepped up, it just might work.

HickeyS2000
12-05-2012, 10:56 AM
...then it seems like moving Danny to the 4 and letting West move on is a real option...

Please no. If Danny is on my team, he is playing the 3. Haven't we already tried that experiment?

Anthem
12-05-2012, 12:25 PM
Please no. If Danny is on my team, he is playing the 3. Haven't we already tried that experiment?
Yeah. It went pretty well, actually. He's got the size for it.

The disaster was playing Troy Murphy at center.

Or playing Troy at all, actually.

Hicks
12-05-2012, 02:09 PM
My concerns with Danny at the 4 (which, otherwise, I like a lot):

1. His health, not just in general as it's already a concern, but when he's getting banged by players bigger/stronger than him many games
2. I think he's actually pretty good at guarding the post, but I'm not sure how well that translates when he's guarding PFs bigger than Hansbrough as opposed to someone like Josh Smith
3. Could he provide any post scoring with a bigger guy on him?

But, other than that, I LOVE it for spacing the floor, adding another shooter at the same time on the floor, having him take bigger guys off the dribble, all leading to a much more dangerous offense, and it makes our defense much more mobile and flexible.

I think the safer thing to do would be to make him the starting SF and the backup PF. Maybe about 18 minutes each, or most of it at the 3 depending on how it works out with regards to the above concerns.