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vnzla81
12-01-2012, 12:35 AM
West,Hill and Young were pretty good tonight, Paul George was a pretty good defender and passer, everybody else? meh.

Go Pacers...

rabid
12-01-2012, 12:37 AM
LOL with vnzla81 on ignore this is an empty thread to me.

David West is a beast.

Can't wait to see the Pacers in Oakland tomorrow night. Go blue and gold!

Eleazar
12-01-2012, 12:37 AM
Mahinmi played good defense.

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 12:38 AM
@1070Bruno: David West = Dale Davis with game. Not as good defensively, of course, but same alpha-male, high-T presence. With touch.



I'm not sure about that.

Nuntius
12-01-2012, 12:38 AM
Can't wait to see the Pacers in Oakland tomorrow night. Go blue and gold!

Have fun in the game, man :)

beast23
12-01-2012, 12:40 AM
I think West was unstoppable. But, honestly, I expect West to have games like that.

But everything we've seen so far would not lead us to expect games like that from Young. So... thanks for stepping up Mr. Young. Now... If his future games are closer to this one than to his previous performances, it would be greatly appreciated.

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 12:44 AM
I think West was unstoppable. But, honestly, I expect West to have games like that.

But everything we've seen so far would not lead us to expect games like that from Young. So... thanks for stepping up Mr. Young. Now... If his future games are closer to this one than to his previous performances, it would be greatly appreciated.

Yeah Young is hit and miss but for 800k who cares? I wish the Pacers pulled similar deals instead of giving up long term contracts.

clownskull
12-01-2012, 12:44 AM
if we had no dave west, this team might have about 2 wins this year.....might.

sbaker50
12-01-2012, 12:45 AM
David West is a baaaad man. I thought DJ ran a pretty good point in the time he was out there, still got killed on D though. Glad to see Paul play through an off night. He had 7-8 assists and played good defense still. George Hill is worth every dime we payed him this summer, it's obvious he is in complete control when he's out there. he just brings a lot to our team, and the two-man game with him and West was on tonight, hope it keeps up.

Go Pacers!

Nuntius
12-01-2012, 12:47 AM
Mahinmi played good defense.

True. He defended Cousins very well in some consecutive possessions.

It's important to point out that Ian is in fact a rim protector. Is he as good as Hibs? Of course not. But at least he can do it. Our lane is not as open as it was last year when Hibs was off the floor.

About the game now. I'm not entirely happy about the defense tonight. It seemed to collapse a bit in the second half. However, 42.7% is still lower than Sacramento's average (44.2%). So, I cannot exactly complain about it. I just liked the first half better than the second ;)

I'm also not happy that they outrebounded us. Then again it was only by 1 board and we actually had 2 more offensive boards than them.

I was extremely happy with the almost complete absence of turnovers in the second half, though. Do you want to know how much points did they score out of our 9 TOs? They only scored 8 points. So, excellent job in that regard.

The offense looked better as well. It isn't entirely inept anymore. We had some good ball movement and some quality looks.

All in all, good win. Take a W in Oracle Arena tommorow and I'll be extremely happy :D

clownskull
12-01-2012, 12:47 AM
nice to see george manage to have a positive impact despite the awful shoot and selection.
he really, desperately needs diversification with his shot selection. almost every night, half of his shots are from downtown. even reggie never did that and knew he had to do more than chuck 3's.

rexnom
12-01-2012, 12:47 AM
Yeah, I am in full reversal of my previous Trade West while he still has value position. It's clear that he is the soul of this team now. He has to stay.

boombaby1987
12-01-2012, 12:51 AM
Man George Hill 25 points 8 assists 6 rebounds 1 steal 0 turnovers. David West 31 points 11 rebounds 2 assists 2 blocks. Entire team: 1 Second Half Turnover.

clownskull
12-01-2012, 12:53 AM
@1070Bruno: David West = Dale Davis with game. Not as good defensively, of course, but same alpha-male, high-T presence. With touch.



I'm not sure about that.
their games are quite different but i think he probably has a bigger impact for this team as to what dale could bring. although dale a considerably better rebounder and defender, he could not score any better than foster. anything outside of a breakaway dunk or alley-oop or put-back off the glass was outside of his range. anything that required him to actually shoot the ball was just too far away.

LuckSwagger
12-01-2012, 12:55 AM
With 2 wins already this road trip is a good one. Win one more and it's a great one. Win two more and it's amazing.

imawhat
12-01-2012, 12:56 AM
A reverse O'Brienism: David West is The man, not a man.

Justin Tyme
12-01-2012, 12:57 AM
Besides the win, the nicest thing about this game was the Pacers are now 8-8. I can't say I felt the Pacers would make it to .500 until Granger got back. It's a nice feeling to be at .500 instead of below it!

I watched Cousins play at U of K where he was good, but he's turned out to be better than I expected. He was the best player in the 010 draft, and should have gone #1 if it hadn't been for his poor temperament.

AesopRockOn
12-01-2012, 12:57 AM
@1070Bruno: David West = Dale Davis with game. Not as good defensively, of course, but same alpha-male, high-T presence. With touch.



I'm not sure about that.

I would compare them in that they are both pretty much elite players, albeit on opposite sides of the court with little to offer on the respective other side. (Davis in skill, West in effort)

LetsTalkPacers84
12-01-2012, 01:03 AM
:happydanc

CableKC
12-01-2012, 01:04 AM
@1070Bruno: David West = Dale Davis with game. Not as good defensively, of course, but same alpha-male, high-T presence. With touch.

I'm not sure about that.
What is T-presense?

beast23
12-01-2012, 01:06 AM
What is T-presense?

Testosterone?

imawhat
12-01-2012, 01:06 AM
Toughness? Testosterone? TNT?

Eleazar
12-01-2012, 01:06 AM
Looking through the play by play I counted and 10 of West's 13 FGs were assisted, 7 of those were from G2. While West was a beast, you can't ignore how important those two were in getting him the ball in a great position to score.

beast23
12-01-2012, 01:07 AM
Toughness? Testosterone? TNT?
Hmmmm. Great minds....?

Heisenberg
12-01-2012, 01:14 AM
Shut up Bruno, you're stupid. We all love Dale Davis but they're not even remotely similar players.

Trader Joe
12-01-2012, 01:18 AM
When we were 4-7 I was pretty dejected, gotta give em props. They have yanked their heads out of their butts, and if they can come out of this 16 of first 21 games on the road stretch at .500 I am going to be feeling pretty good about their chances.

cdash
12-01-2012, 01:18 AM
First place! Woo!!!

Kid Minneapolis
12-01-2012, 01:42 AM
Where are all the people jumping off the cliff 3 weeks ago? The same ones who said us "sunshiners" were crazy for believing this team would come around?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

wintermute
12-01-2012, 01:59 AM
Seems like this team is finding its identity. I thought we were forcing it a little too much to Hibbert and George early on in the season. Now, we're going almost exclusively to our best players (West and Hill), with Hibbert and George going back to their more natural support roles. Bench is also starting to gel a bit. The team has looked a lot better as a result.

And btw, IMO trying to force feed Hibbert and George wasn't a wrong move, it just didn't work out maybe because those guys just weren't ready yet. Kudos to Frank for having the balls to give the younger guys a featured role, and also for recognizing that it isn't working and making appropriate changes.

Eleazar
12-01-2012, 02:41 AM
Seems like this team is finding its identity. I thought we were forcing it a little too much to Hibbert and George early on in the season. Now, we're going almost exclusively to our best players (West and Hill), with Hibbert and George going back to their more natural support roles. Bench is also starting to gel a bit. The team has looked a lot better as a result.

And btw, IMO trying to force feed Hibbert and George wasn't a wrong move, it just didn't work out maybe because those guys just weren't ready yet. Kudos to Frank for having the balls to give the younger guys a featured role, and also for recognizing that it isn't working and making appropriate changes.

You know the amount of shots each player is taking really hasn't changed all that much. I don't think it is so much that we went from forcing it onto them to not, as much as our offense is flowing better so the looks they are getting are more within an offensive flow whereas earlier they won't. The improved flow has little to do with changing focus on different players, and more just better player and ball movement.

CableKC
12-01-2012, 03:13 AM
Seems like this team is finding its identity. I thought we were forcing it a little too much to Hibbert and George early on in the season. Now, we're going almost exclusively to our best players (West and Hill), with Hibbert and George going back to their more natural support roles. Bench is also starting to gel a bit. The team has looked a lot better as a result.

And btw, IMO trying to force feed Hibbert and George wasn't a wrong move, it just didn't work out maybe because those guys just weren't ready yet. Kudos to Frank for having the balls to give the younger guys a featured role, and also for recognizing that it isn't working and making appropriate changes.
I'm gonna be the fly in the soup......I think that we are getting there....but won't have an "identity" until everyone outside of GH and West become more consistent. The "identity" that I see is "inconsistency" among the overall Team where GH and DW are carrying the Team and then the rest of the Team inconsistently contributing to leads but at the same time coughing up those very leads as the Starters rest.

I expect inconsistency from the 2nd unit at this point due to lack of chemistry among the newer Players....but PG going 2-11 and Hibbert going 3-9 isn't going to cut it. I don't even want to talk about the 2 airballs ( my God....AIRBALLS ) from Hibbert ( a shot that he was able to at least hit the rim with ).

Sure, they do great every other game....and PG made up for it on the rebounding and assist end.....but Starters have to be able to contribute on the offensive end on a regular basis.

To be clear...I am not saying that this Team "isn't getting it" and that I am not pleased with their performance....I'm saying that we need more consistency from everyone so that we don't see these huge leads evaporate when DW and Hill rest. We are getting there...but we aren't there yet.

Trader Joe
12-01-2012, 03:18 AM
You know it's really too bad we couldn't pay Nene 56 million dollars to be here. Had to settle for David West. Too bad really.

TMJ31
12-01-2012, 03:59 AM
Two thoughts:

1) :gopacers: I've been telling you guys we were going to work it out... And we're working it out!

2) Sleep Train Arena is just a HORRIFIC name for a sports venue. I mean, seriously!

Naptown_Seth
12-01-2012, 04:01 AM
You know it's really too bad we couldn't pay Nene 56 million dollars to be here. Had to settle for David West. Too bad really.

Yes, he's totally a BAMFL...the L is for loser.



God do I love to watch his old school offense, a thing of beauty. He must be kept next year, they would be fools to let him go. He brings that combo of talent and guts to face the challenge. I really hope the retired view of West is of him as a Pacer, not a Hornet.

presto123
12-01-2012, 04:59 AM
Where are all the people jumping off the cliff 3 weeks ago? The same ones who said us "sunshiners" were crazy for believing this team would come around?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


The team is playing better than they were but they are far from "coming around". We are beating mediocre teams albeit on the road but it's some very ugly basketball at times. Lets see them do it against some of the elite teams. Like somebody else already said take away D. West's super performances lately and we would be in a world of hurt. Not trying to be a downer here but some people need to come back to reality as well. I am cautiously optimistic the team will continue to improve but they have a ways to go.

Brad8888
12-01-2012, 05:00 AM
The Pacers now have two mature leaders - West and Hill. That bodes very well and should continue to strengthen the team when tougher games come later in the season schedule. Now, whenever Granger returns, he doesn't necessarily need to worry about being a one man team without anyone else capable of carrying the load, especially mentally.

owl
12-01-2012, 08:43 AM
You know it's really too bad we couldn't pay Nene 56 million dollars to be here. Had to settle for David West. Too bad really.

I am not so sure that was a good thing either. If I remember correctly Bird wanted BOTH West and Nene.
I think Bird was wanting to let Hibbert walk. Who knows how that would have worked?

D-BONE
12-01-2012, 08:45 AM
1) For God, Don, Don, Vogel, tell PG & Lance to step in or dribble into a 17 footer when they're wide open (since they are both cold as ice from downtown).

2) When (hopefully not if) Granger returns, I still want us playing through West and Hill first.

3) I love Roy and I'm not questioning him playing hard or anything, but damn we payed way too much for him.

4) At this point (dream time here so don't take seriously), I'd give Sactown Roy, Paul, and Tyler for Cousins.

5) Still disappointed with the new big three offseason acquisitions. Mahinmi overall has been best so far, and I agree he has helped the interior D on the bench unit. I just wish he could be more consistent someplace else - scoring, rebounding. Maybe it will come.

Agustin at least seems to have turned up his intensity level. Looks a bit less like a zombie out there, but unless he goes on a prolonged hot streak shooting the three there's almost no chance he ever overcomes all his negatives. Green? Sorry to this supporters, but don't even talk to me about him. Almost zero contribution unless his three is falling. Hmm... so I guess that makes he and DJ about the same profile.

6) Best pickup of the offseason by far has been Young. If all he does on O is hit a corner 3 here and there, I'll take it for what we get in hustle, defense, and physicality.

7) PG was good in the non-scoring areas so I give him credit there. But will the guy even be able to average say 12 -14 ppg?

8) Wish Lance were more involved in the offense than just a spot up 3 guy. Don't care how hard he's worked on it, it's still not his bread and butter.

9) I think Bruno is not comparing DWest and DD in terms of their skill sets at all. He's talking the toughness and attitude they infuse in the rest of the players - a form of leadership by example. Both are/were, IMO, primary catalysts for the "soul" of the team.

10) So far a great road trip. Keep it going tonight. Who will step up? Assuming the Beast will not see a lot of minutes after 37 or 38 last night.

11) So, if George & Hibbert continue to be average at best / underachieve for another 20 or so games, do they have any trade value?

Pacergeek
12-01-2012, 08:57 AM
if we had no dave west, this team might have about 2 wins this year.....might.

David West for MVP?

LoneGranger33
12-01-2012, 09:10 AM
If we somehow find a way to win at Golden State this evening, there's a chance we'll not only be back in the playoff picture at 9-8, but also leading the division! Unfortunately, we have to count on losses by both the Bulls (at home versus the 76ers) and Bucks (hosting the Celtics) for this scenario to go down, but it isn't out of the question. Need to care take of business at Oracle first.

Justin Tyme
12-01-2012, 09:12 AM
I'm gonna be the fly in the soup......I think that we are getting there....but won't have an "identity" until everyone outside of GH and West become more consistent. The "identity" that I see is "inconsistency" among the overall Team where GH and DW are carrying the Team and then the rest of the Team inconsistently contributing to leads but at the same time coughing up those very leads as the Starters rest.

I expect inconsistency from the 2nd unit at this point due to lack of chemistry among the newer Players....but PG going 2-11 and Hibbert going 3-9 isn't going to cut it. I don't even want to talk about the 2 airballs ( my God....AIRBALLS ) from Hibbert ( a shot that he was able to at least hit the rim with ).

Sure, they do great every other game....and PG made up for it on the rebounding and assist end.....but Starters have to be able to contribute on the offensive end on a regular basis.

To be clear...I am not saying that this Team "isn't getting it" and that I am not pleased with their performance....I'm saying that we need more consistency from everyone so that we don't see these huge leads evaporate when DW and Hill rest. We are getting there...but we aren't there yet.



Great post!

No you aren't the fly in the soup. You just pointed out how it is. You're correct this team needs to work on being more consistant. I was screaming at Vogel when he had 5 reserves playing together, and they couldn't produce. Vogel needs to have a couple of starters on the floor with the bench.

Speaking of the bench, I felt Sam had a reeeeally nice game and DJ was productive as well. Quinn was constantly pointing out the positives of the bench in the game. It's like he reads PD and is trying to offset the negativism felt about the bench players.

Justin Tyme
12-01-2012, 09:18 AM
just better player and ball movement.



THIS. And there is still plenty of room to improve on it especially when playing against a zone.

Pacergeek
12-01-2012, 09:18 AM
If we somehow find a way to win at Golden State this evening, there's a chance we'll not only be back in the playoff picture at 9-8, but also leading the division! Unfortunately, we have to count on losses by both the Bulls (at home versus the 76ers) and Bucks (hosting the Celtics) for this scenario to go down, but it isn't out of the question. Need to care take of business at Oracle first.

we are clearly in the worst division in the NBA this year. It will come down to Pacers vs Bulls for the division winner. I am projecting Milwaukee to fade

Justin Tyme
12-01-2012, 09:24 AM
You know it's really too bad we couldn't pay Nene 56 million dollars to be here. Had to settle for David West. Too bad really.


Vnzla admitted yesterday he was wrong about DWest. Although, it is fun to needle him a little about it. He can handle it though. He has to be given credit to his being right about Varejao when many weren't.

BlueNGold
12-01-2012, 09:28 AM
We are a playoff team, but not contending with this group. Maybe if Granger returns and Hibbert and George step up we can bump with the elite. But none of those things are happening.

Paul George is a disappointment. This is his third year and he's supposed to be the future, right? Well, 4 points on 2-11 shooting and 0-6 from three point range isn't much of a future. It's time to downgrade expectations for the young man.

Lance Stephenson, Mr. Born Ready, may need to crawl back in the womb. Dude got a goose egg and basically contributed nothing.

Roy Hibbert, our supposed all-star center, had about as many fouls as points made. He's not a spring chicken folks. If he doesn't eliminate games like this, we don't have the answer at the C position.

Seriously, I think these guys should be putting things together by now. Especially Hibbert who turns 26 in a few days and is already in his 5th year in the league.

Justin Tyme
12-01-2012, 09:31 AM
I am not so sure that was a good thing either. If I remember correctly Bird wanted BOTH West and Nene.
I think Bird was wanting to let Hibbert walk. Who knows how that would have worked?



I never got the feeling Bird wanted both DWest and Nene. Maybe I missed it. My impression Bird wanted Nene, and when the price got ridiculous he went after Dwest.

Justin Tyme
12-01-2012, 09:51 AM
1) For God, Don, Don, Vogel, tell PG & Lance to step in or dribble into a 17 footer when they're wide open (since they are both cold as ice from downtown).

2) When (hopefully not if) Granger returns, I still want us playing through West and Hill first.

3) I love Roy and I'm not questioning him playing hard or anything, but damn we payed way too much for him.

4) At this point (dream time here so don't take seriously), I'd give Sactown Roy, Paul, and Tyler for Cousins.

5) Still disappointed with the new big three offseason acquisitions. Mahinmi overall has been best so far, and I agree he has helped the interior D on the bench unit. I just wish he could be more consistent someplace else - scoring, rebounding. Maybe it will come.

Agustin at least seems to have turned up his intensity level. Looks a bit less like a zombie out there, but unless he goes on a prolonged hot streak shooting the three there's almost no chance he ever overcomes all his negatives. Green? Sorry to this supporters, but don't even talk to me about him. Almost zero contribution unless his three is falling. Hmm... so I guess that makes he and DJ about the same profile.

6) Best pickup of the offseason by far has been Young. If all he does on O is hit a corner 3 here and there, I'll take it for what we get in hustle, defense, and physicality.

7) PG was good in the non-scoring areas so I give him credit there. But will the guy even be able to average say 12 -14 ppg?

8) Wish Lance were more involved in the offense than just a spot up 3 guy. Don't care how hard he's worked on it, it's still not his bread and butter.

9) I think Bruno is not comparing DWest and DD in terms of their skill sets at all. He's talking the toughness and attitude they infuse in the rest of the players - a form of leadership by example. Both are/were, IMO, primary catalysts for the "soul" of the team.

10) So far a great road trip. Keep it going tonight. Who will step up? Assuming the Beast will not see a lot of minutes after 37 or 38 last night.

11) So, if George & Hibbert continue to be average at best / underachieve for another 20 or so games, do they have any trade value?


With Hibbert's contract, I don't see he has any trade value the way he's playing. If he was being paid 10 mil, he might have some value, but his stats are less than D. Jordan and J McGee who are being paid 10 mil this season. The worst thing that happened for the Pacers was that Hibbert was an Allstar last season. That's the difference in his salary and McGee and Jordan's. Hibbert's agent capitalized on that and got Walsh to overpay. Walsh had to have a sick feeling when he watch Hibbert twice miss the rim on shots last night after what he paid Hibbert to keep him. 3-9 shooting at 33 1/3%. Pathetic!

Mr_Smith
12-01-2012, 10:32 AM
Didn't get on here to comment last night, too wrapped up in the game. All I gotta say is David West is a super-beast and owned the Kings. I know Kings fans had to be frustrated every time he kept knocking down shots. He had the kind of performance that makes an opposing fan keep slapping their forehead.

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 10:57 AM
You know it's really too bad we couldn't pay Nene 56 million dollars to be here. Had to settle for David West. Too bad really.

You are an Indiana Pacers hater and specially a Larry Bird hater because they are the ones that took that whole trip to kiss Nene's a** to bring him here, no me, all I did was agree with Bird so stop it.

I love how I'm supposed to be the only that wanted him when a huge group of people wanted him also.

BlueNGold
12-01-2012, 11:08 AM
The George Hill and David West acquisitions are looking good about now.

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 11:09 AM
I also love how people keep making fun of Nene's contract, I guess people have not seen that the Pacers now have a similar contract in Roy Hibbert and Danny "I'm making 13mil a year to sit home" Granger.

PaceBalls
12-01-2012, 11:09 AM
About Hibbert, I think putting on so much weight was a mistake. He was much more fit/mobile last year. I know he wanted to build his lower body so he wouldn't be pushed off the block so easy, but I think he gave up too much agility to do so. I hope he considers trimming down.

Hicks
12-01-2012, 11:14 AM
I'm not so sure that it's a weight problem but he seems to be back to shooting a lot of his shots off-balance or otherwise awkwardly.

SMosley21
12-01-2012, 11:21 AM
Where are all the people jumping off the cliff 3 weeks ago? The same ones who said us "sunshiners" were crazy for believing this team would come around?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

One of them is right here (although I wasn't on PD saying these things because this is the first time I've logged on in months). I was very down on the team (emotionally as well) until the past few games. They seem to have finally started playing like they have some form of professional training at the sport. It's fun to be able to watch the games again and not want to throw something at my tv the whole time.

xIndyFan
12-01-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm not so sure that it's a weight problem but he seems to be back to shooting a lot of his shots off-balance or otherwise awkwardly.

I agree. JMO, but that seems to indicate a conditioning issue. Dude is just not in shape yet. Plus he seems to be rushing things a little. I expect most of that to go away as the season grinds on.

Jon Theodore
12-01-2012, 11:42 AM
I agree. JMO, but that seems to indicate a conditioning issue. Dude is just not in shape yet. Plus he seems to be rushing things a little. I expect most of that to go away as the season grinds on.

What is frustrating with Roy is how he should be unguardable in the post. His little hook shot in the post should be money in the bank, there is no reason for his poor shooting display.

Naptown_Seth
12-01-2012, 11:53 AM
I'm not so sure that it's a weight problem but he seems to be back to shooting a lot of his shots off-balance or otherwise awkwardly.
This.

Confidence is shot, he questions all his moves and situations on offense and then the hesitation kills the moment. Last night he got a post feed that had him primed to walk Cousins right back to the rim, and instead he stopped and faced up. Forget if that was the missed jumper or the drive where his dribble was knocked off his leg, but I remember it was ugly.

And FT% is not a weight issue, that's mind games.

He needs to get Cheech Marin's character from Tin Cup to get him out of the funk.

Derek2k3
12-01-2012, 11:58 AM
If there are any PGA Tour fans on here, you'll get this analogy:

I think Hibbert is going through the "Duval" situation. A lot of people don't know or remember, but Duval was right there with Tiger in his prime. Sure, Tiger was better, but man was Duval close. The guy was an incredible golfer, and was clearly going to be able to challenge Tiger (Think Phil, but potentially better). All of the sudden, Duval goes and loses a TON of weight, puts on a TON of muscle...and his game goes to ****. He basically over-tweaked his body to the point of ruining his career.

I don't think what Roy has done is that bad, he hasn't destroyed his career. He has, however, done some things that have adversely affected his game, and it needs to stop. Drop some of the weight, get some of that quickness back.

Call me crazy, but this was a great game for the Pacers. Here's why:

At this point, all those saying we needed Paul to be "The Man" have seen why we don't. We need Paul to score efficiently and play elite defense. Leave being the Man to West or Hill. Option 1, West. Option 2, Hill.

We've found what works. We didn't win tonight because the team got hot from 3 or something, we won because David and George took over offensively, and had some players make some very key plays (Sam Young, DJ with a couple VERY important shots). The team, yet again, showed improvement. I've said it over and over, but I won't completely freak out until the team stops showing improvement. That has yet to happen.

Final point: All of those railing against Vogel, give him a little credit for adjusting his offense, keeping his guys playing ELITE defense, and starting to go away from his squad subs. He's making adjustments, and the team is responding with wins. It wasn't long ago that Indiana wouldn't even be competitive on these West Coast trips.

Go Pacers!

aamcguy
12-01-2012, 12:09 PM
Great games by HIll and West again. But I wish people would stop saying that because West has been having some good games recently, you have to look at what our team has done with a grain of salt. Last I checked, David West is an Indiana Pacer and will be at least for the entire season. So whatever he does for us is a credit for us, not something you can't consider when evalutating our team. If you're waiting for all 10 players in our rotation to consistently play well, you're going to be waiting a long time. Not everybody plays great every night. He's had his little funks as well as everybody else on the team. The only difference is that he's been a bona fide scorer in this league where nobody else currently playing has been.

When LeBron goes off for 40 points, I doubt anybody comments that if they need LeBron to put up 40 they're not as good as they looked because as you can see he clearly only averages 25. Big games don't exist unless the team makes an effort to get the ball to the hot hand and give up their shots. So yes, West isn't gonna score 30 every night. But we're finally playing like he's our primary scorer consistently.

Naptown_Seth
12-01-2012, 12:12 PM
Here's why I disagree on Green not contributing. Last night there were a couple of up for grabs rebounds that Green's vertical saved the day on and turned into Pacers possessions. And when he made the bad pass it was Green that ran it down and turned it into not just a Kings TO but a foul to boot.

Green is moderately physical and is still bringing his vertical game to challenge inside.



The team isn't fixed, it's on a more healthy, believable grade of improvement. They've had the right situation to help that along in terms of schedule, but it's okay to be developing while playing easier early season opponents (see all NCAA football).

Here's what they've learned

- Hill/West are fitting into a Parker/Duncan role now, less Paul-Roy as the offensive focus
- This lets Paul and Roy work more from the 3rd-4th option role instead which means you don't 100% have to have them going in order to limp along
- Roy is playing great defense and is crucial to that end and the team's outstanding FG% and PPG defense
- Young is obviously the defensive stopper and a McKey-like "what do you need" type, not starter talent but you are glad when he gets his minutes
- Green is backing off and appears to be still looking for his role, but at least he/they aren't making him the focus right now while he slumps.
- Paul has been showing an improved ability to drive and dish
- Ian can be relied on as a physical frontline guy, but like Green he's still trying to figure out when/where he can or should get the ball

If I'm giving out homework to Vogel it's to get a reliable PnR game going between DJ and Ian because that's untapped gold that can have a major impact on getting them going while also generating much needed bench offensive flow. If Ian would protect his dribble a bit better going to the rim then this combo would be even more lethal.

And back to West-Roy, maybe Roy-David are like Smits-Dale, just in a way opposite from what we thought. That can still work even if we eventually would like to see more offense from Roy's salary.





BTW - game specific, where's all the complaining about that obvious hip-hugging carry last night, I think it was Garcia. He lost his dribble, cradled it to his hip, put his other hand on the ball to secure it (a 2 handed dribble?) and then put the ball back on the floor and continued to drive to the rim. It was right in front of me and I was p*****, and the replay in-arena confirmed I was right to be. Terrible missed call.

Trader Joe
12-01-2012, 12:44 PM
You are an Indiana Pacers hater and specially a Larry Bird hater because they are the ones that took that whole trip to kiss Nene's a** to bring him here, no me, all I did was agree with Bird so stop it.

I love how I'm supposed to be the only that wanted him when a huge group of people wanted him also.

That post didn't even mention you directly LOL

It's all in good fun ;)

CableKC
12-01-2012, 12:49 PM
The Pacers now have two mature leaders - West and Hill. That bodes very well and should continue to strengthen the team when tougher games come later in the season schedule. Now, whenever Granger returns, he doesn't necessarily need to worry about being a one man team without anyone else capable of carrying the load, especially mentally.
I will say this.....if we need a game winning basket at the end of the game.....I'd rather give the ball to GH or West to take that shot than Granger.

GH is way more clutch than Granger is when it comes to getting a basket.

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 01:12 PM
Great games by HIll and West again. But I wish people would stop saying that because West has been having some good games recently, you have to look at what our team has done with a grain of salt. Last I checked, David West is an Indiana Pacer and will be at least for the entire season. So whatever he does for us is a credit for us, not something you can't consider when evalutating our team. If you're waiting for all 10 players in our rotation to consistently play well, you're going to be waiting a long time. Not everybody plays great every night. He's had his little funks as well as everybody else on the team. The only difference is that he's been a bona fide scorer in this league where nobody else currently playing has been.

When LeBron goes off for 40 points, I doubt anybody comments that if they need LeBron to put up 40 they're not as good as they looked because as you can see he clearly only averages 25. Big games don't exist unless the team makes an effort to get the ball to the hot hand and give up their shots. So yes, West isn't gonna score 30 every night. But we're finally playing like he's our primary scorer consistently.

I kind of get what you are saying but if you are comparing Lebrons impact to West impact in the game I don't know what to tell you.

And also nobody is asking for all 13 players to be consistent, I have not seen anybody saying that, is it too much to ask for at least 5 or 6 players to be consistent? I don't think so.

Nuntius
12-01-2012, 01:40 PM
I kind of get what you are saying but if you are comparing Lebrons impact to West impact in the game I don't know what to tell you.


He is definitely NOT doing this kind of comparison.

CableKC
12-01-2012, 01:40 PM
This.

Confidence is shot, he questions all his moves and situations on offense and then the hesitation kills the moment. Last night he got a post feed that had him primed to walk Cousins right back to the rim, and instead he stopped and faced up. Forget if that was the missed jumper or the drive where his dribble was knocked off his leg, but I remember it was ugly.

And FT% is not a weight issue, that's mind games.

He needs to get Cheech Marin's character from Tin Cup to get him out of the funk.
This is exactly what Peck ( or is it Hicks ? :shrug: ) said about Hibbert.....he's "Gladiator" from the Marvel Universe. His production on the offensive end is entirely reliant on his confidence in himself. The more confidence he has...the more effective he is...the less confidence he has...the less effective he is.

Eleazar
12-01-2012, 01:47 PM
7) PG was good in the non-scoring areas so I give him credit there. But will the guy even be able to average say 12 -14 ppg?

Psst. Don't look now but the guy is averaging 14.3ppg. :-o

CableKC
12-01-2012, 01:58 PM
If there are any PGA Tour fans on here, you'll get this analogy:

I think Hibbert is going through the "Duval" situation. A lot of people don't know or remember, but Duval was right there with Tiger in his prime. Sure, Tiger was better, but man was Duval close. The guy was an incredible golfer, and was clearly going to be able to challenge Tiger (Think Phil, but potentially better). All of the sudden, Duval goes and loses a TON of weight, puts on a TON of muscle...and his game goes to ****. He basically over-tweaked his body to the point of ruining his career.

I don't think what Roy has done is that bad, he hasn't destroyed his career. He has, however, done some things that have adversely affected his game, and it needs to stop. Drop some of the weight, get some of that quickness back.

Call me crazy, but this was a great game for the Pacers. Here's why:

At this point, all those saying we needed Paul to be "The Man" have seen why we don't. We need Paul to score efficiently and play elite defense. Leave being the Man to West or Hill. Option 1, West. Option 2, Hill.

We've found what works. We didn't win tonight because the team got hot from 3 or something, we won because David and George took over offensively, and had some players make some very key plays (Sam Young, DJ with a couple VERY important shots). The team, yet again, showed improvement. I've said it over and over, but I won't completely freak out until the team stops showing improvement. That has yet to happen.

Final point: All of those railing against Vogel, give him a little credit for adjusting his offense, keeping his guys playing ELITE defense, and starting to go away from his squad subs. He's making adjustments, and the team is responding with wins. It wasn't long ago that Indiana wouldn't even be competitive on these West Coast trips.

Go Pacers!
The first part about PG and Hibbert being an efficient and effective scorer and GH/West being the primary 1st and 2nd Scorers ( without Granger in the equation ) is correct. The problem is that right now.....PG and Hibbert aren't effective and efficient scorers on a consistent basis. I love the GH/West put on a Herculean performance against a mediocre Team like the Kings...but they won't be able to do this on a regular basis.

PG and Hibbert MUST STEP UP and at least become produce more on the offensive end.

BTW.....what you just said about PG simply being a Complementary Player is what I think his best role will be going forward. PG has been given the chance to fill the role that Granger filled....unfortunately, I do not think that his mentality is best suited to be "Batman"....but to be "Robin". PG may have all the talent and skill to be "Batman" but he doesn't have the aggressiveness nor willingness to simply "take over". On the other side of the coin.... I think that Granger has the mentality and aggressiveness to want to "take over" and to "Be the Man" but does not have the necessary talent or skill level to become a Carmelo-type Player. IMHO....Granger can sometimes take over a game...but doesn't have the requisite talent or skill to do it on a regular basis like Carmelo can.

CableKC
12-01-2012, 02:35 PM
Psst. Don't look now but the guy is averaging 15ppg. :-o
Yeah....but let's look at this in context....for the season...you are right....15ppg....but over the last week, he's been averaging 8 ppg on 29% shooting while taking 13 FGA .

I like that he's helping on the defensive end...but this level of offensive production and being inefficient isn't going to help over the long term. Add in the amount of wear and tear that is put on DW where he is the only Player that can be relied upon on the offensive end...and it's not good in the long term.

Dr. Hibbert
12-01-2012, 02:49 PM
Just wanted to reiterate how much I love watching David West play. Yeah, I know his defense leaves much to be desired, but if Roy Hibbert played with half the heart, anger and intensity as David West, he would be the most dominant center in the league. There's something special about West's fight, hustle, and desire to win. You couldn't ask for a better vet example for your locker room.

Eleazar
12-01-2012, 03:02 PM
Yeah....but let's look at this in context....for the season...you are right....15ppg....but over the last week, he's been averaging 8 ppg on 29% shooting while taking 13 FGA .

I like that he's helping on the defensive end...but this level of offensive production and being inefficient isn't going to help over the long term. Add in the amount of wear and tear that is put on DW where he is the only Player that can be relied upon on the offensive end...and it's not good in the long term.

The last week only consists of 2 games, one of which was the worst shooting night of his season, and came after a week where he averaged 19ppg. I am not going to put a lot of stock in a single weeks worth of performance as a single week is prone to be affected greatly by anomalies.



I love the GH/West put on a Herculean performance against a mediocre Team like the Kings

They may have scored a lot, but the way they scored is very repeatable. Most of Wests scoring came off of assists, not 1v1 isos. Yeah, Hill got hot from 3, but overall he mostly just covered for Georges extremely bad shooting night.

rock747
12-01-2012, 03:02 PM
About Hibbert, I think putting on so much weight was a mistake. He was much more fit/mobile last year. I know he wanted to build his lower body so he wouldn't be pushed off the block so easy, but I think he gave up too much agility to do so. I hope he considers trimming down.

Yeah, he appears way more "bulkier" this year. It's even more noticeable on tv. Not sure if this is contributing to any of his struggles or not but i have noticed it.

yoadknux
12-01-2012, 03:10 PM
I also love how people keep making fun of Nene's contract, I guess people have not seen that the Pacers now have a similar contract in Roy Hibbert and Danny "I'm making 13mil a year to sit home" Granger.
I can get the Hibbert point because he sucks, but Granger is injured. Is Derrick Rose a bad contract? He makes even more than Granger and will probably be out longer.

Trophy
12-01-2012, 03:16 PM
Where are all the people jumping off the cliff 3 weeks ago? The same ones who said us "sunshiners" were crazy for believing this team would come around?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Pessimism doesn't mean it's right and that's something that annoys me. I was getting annoyed with our play as much as anyone else, but I wouldn't say to "blow it up" a month into the season after coming off a season where we were the 5th best team and not having Danny.

This team is still plenty good and it's shown in recent games. It's should get even better.

Hopefully we keep it going and start dominating our opponent, but the way we've played as a unit is an auspicious sign moving forward.

rexnom
12-01-2012, 03:21 PM
More on West and Hill--they're so key to our team because they are two of our smartest players. It's just tough to quantify how important it is to have guys with high basketball IQ out there. This team is going to be very good when Danny comes back.

Sandman21
12-01-2012, 03:21 PM
Maybe Roy needs to accidentally elbow me in the head at the airport again.......

Hmm....

Peck
12-01-2012, 03:22 PM
I also love how people keep making fun of Nene's contract, I guess people have not seen that the Pacers now have a similar contract in Roy Hibbert and Danny "I'm making 13mil a year to sit home" Granger.

Perhaps you need to have your eyes checked. Danny has been with the team on the West Coast trip and actually started coming to games two games before they left on the road.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm......Now that I think about it the team is 3-1 since Danny has just returned to the sideline, imagine how much better it will be when he actually gets to play. ;)

You better be getting ready to polish those buckles on that emporer's saddle when he returns on that white horse. :)

Peck
12-01-2012, 03:24 PM
More on West and Hill--they're so key to our team because they are two of our smartest players. It's just tough to quantify how important it is to have guys with high basketball IQ out there. This team is going to be very good when Danny comes back.

Not only do both posses a high basketball IQ they both have something that IMO you either have or your don't and it's not something you can probably learn. Mental toughness. They don't get raddled and they are always looking for that kill shot.

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 03:31 PM
I can get the Hibbert point because he sucks, but Granger is injured. Is Derrick Rose a bad contract? He makes even more than Granger and will probably be out longer.

I'm mentioning Danny because somebody was trying to make a point with Nene by saying that he is a loser while he has also been injured like Danny, so because the Wizards are loosing while Nene and Wall are out that automatically makes them losers in some people eyes.

Trophy
12-01-2012, 04:08 PM
I can get the Hibbert point because he sucks, but Granger is injured. Is Derrick Rose a bad contract? He makes even more than Granger and will probably be out longer.

...Wow!

McKeyFan
12-01-2012, 04:09 PM
This team is going to be very good when Danny comes back.
Yes. But expect it to take a few games. They'll probably get worse before they get better.

Trophy
12-01-2012, 04:12 PM
Yes. But expect it to take a few games. They'll probably get worse before they get better.

I'm guessing a month at least will be needed when Danny returns before he's 100% effective and can play his usual minutes.

Trader Joe
12-01-2012, 04:34 PM
Perhaps you need to have your eyes checked. Danny has been with the team on the West Coast trip and actually started coming to games two games before they left on the road.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm......Now that I think about it the team is 3-1 since Danny has just returned to the sideline, imagine how much better it will be when he actually gets to play. ;)

You better be getting ready to polish those buckles on that emporer's saddle when he returns on that white horse. :)

I'm imagining Danny's first game in uniform to be a bit like Gandalf's arrival at Helm's Deep with all those riding in on a white horse comparisons.

Trader Joe
12-01-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm mentioning Danny because somebody was trying to make a point with Nene by saying that he is a loser while he has also been injured like Danny, so because the Wizards are loosing while Nene and Wall are out that automatically makes them losers in some people eyes.

I mean the Wizards sucked last year too, and Denver wasn't exactly tearing it up with Nene before he was dealt :twocents:

Trader Joe
12-01-2012, 04:36 PM
I'm guessing a month at least will be needed when Danny returns before he's 100% effective and can play his usual minutes.

Just his presence clearly has an impact on these guys. There is a sense of normalcy when the longest tenured Pacer is present and around the team on a daily basis. I'm sure the mere fact Danny is traveling and also apparently working out with the team team has been a huge boost to morale. A needed lift when things looked bleak.

Eleazar
12-01-2012, 04:41 PM
it's not something you can probably learn. Mental toughness.

I don't agree with this statement. I just think it is the hardest thing to learn, and if you don't learn soon enough it can ruin your career before you really get it all together. Often times it is more of a switch that gets turned on than a gradual process also, which is usually turned on when you have had enough of being pushed around. It defiantly isn't something you learn by going to a shrink though.

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 04:56 PM
I mean the Wizards sucked last year too, and Denver wasn't exactly tearing it up with Nene before he was dealt :twocents:

They started to play better with him there and the Nuggets ended up with a record over .500 so I don't know what are you talking about?

Trader Joe
12-01-2012, 05:17 PM
They started to play better with him there and the Nuggets ended up with a record over .500 so I don't know what are you talking about?

I am saying the Wizards were still not a good team when Nene got there, and the Nuggets got better once he left.

Anthem
12-01-2012, 06:19 PM
We are a playoff team, but not contending with this group. Maybe if Granger returns and Hibbert and George step up we can bump with the elite. But none of those things are happening.
None of those things are happening? You don't think Danny's gonna be back before the playoffs?

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 06:26 PM
I am saying the Wizards were still not a good team when Nene got there, and the Nuggets got better once he left.

Go ahead and replace Nene with West and that team is still going to suck without Wall and nope Denver didn't get better you are acting like he was sucking the life out of the team, stop making bs up to make yourself feel better.

Anthem
12-01-2012, 06:27 PM
You are an Indiana Pacers hater and specially a Larry Bird hater because they are the ones that took that whole trip to kiss Nene's a** to bring him here, no me, all I did was agree with Bird so stop it.

I love how I'm supposed to be the only that wanted him when a huge group of people wanted him also.
Dude, you pick the weirdest fights.

Everybody wanted Nene here, including Bird and the entire forum. But when it came out how much money Nene wanted, Larry Bird and everybody on the forum except you said the same thing: Nice player, too much money. You took the opposite track, and you took it pretty vocally. Just one example here:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?67493-Should-we-overpay-for-Nene

Four people said we should pay him 18mil: pacers74, Steagles, thatch3232, and you.

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 06:35 PM
Dude, you pick the weirdest fights.

Everybody wanted Nene here, including Bird and the entire forum. But when it came out how much money Nene wanted, Larry Bird and everybody on the forum except you said the same thing: Nice player, too much money. You took the opposite track, and you took it pretty vocally. Just one example here:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?67493-Should-we-overpay-for-Nene

Four people said we should pay him 18mil: pacers74, Steagles, thatch3232, and you.

That thread is showing way more people than the ones you are mentioning not only that but a lot of people wanted him for less than max money, I'm pretty sure that 90% of PD wanted Roy Hibbert for less than max and they wanted Hill for less than 8mil, the fact is that at the end of the day people wanted them even if it was for one mil less here and there.

Coopdog23
12-01-2012, 07:26 PM
David West is beginning to put the team on his shoulders. Hill is playing great lately. Now Roy and Paul need to step up and then our offense will be clicking

BlueNGold
12-01-2012, 08:26 PM
None of those things are happening? You don't think Danny's gonna be back before the playoffs?

Danny might return but at what level? What condition is he going to be in...and how many minutes are they going to risk playing him? He has been nursing that knee for some time now...and each year it's getting worse rather than better.

Hibbert and Paul George are not getting it done. I think without a healthy Granger and without major growth in Hibbert or Paul George, we top out as an 8 seed or so. West isn't getting any younger either. ...and the Pacers will be picking around 15 or lower for a long time.

aamcguy
12-01-2012, 09:04 PM
Danny might return but at what level? What condition is he going to be in...and how many minutes are they going to risk playing him? He has been nursing that knee for some time now...and each year it's getting worse rather than better.

Hibbert and Paul George are not getting it done. I think without a healthy Granger and without major growth in Hibbert or Paul George, we top out as an 8 seed or so. West isn't getting any younger either. ...and the Pacers will be picking around 15 or lower for a long time.

We are currently 9th and have played some AWFUL basketball. We have also have an elite defense and some of our guys have been averaging career low efficiency numbers. Also, we are effectively tied for 8th atm, as we are 8-8, but Chicago is 7-7 and has a better division record. So you think this team is what it is right now?

Eleazar
12-01-2012, 09:48 PM
I think a lot of people are overplaying the poor offensive play of Hibbert and George. Yeah they have shot it poorly, but other than that they both have played well or even great in every other facet of the game.

clownskull
12-04-2012, 12:26 AM
About Hibbert, I think putting on so much weight was a mistake. He was much more fit/mobile last year. I know he wanted to build his lower body so he wouldn't be pushed off the block so easy, but I think he gave up too much agility to do so. I hope he considers trimming down.

if he slims down- he will get pushed around much more easily.

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 01:49 AM
if he slims down- he will get pushed around much more easily.

He gets pushed around just as much this year as he did last year. The way I see it, he typically wins his positioning battles when he first goes out there. 5-6 minutes of game time later and he looks like he's fighting tiredness just as much as his man. But I thought the same last year. The only real difference I see is that he falls down a couple less times per game.

CableKC
12-04-2012, 01:59 AM
He gets pushed around just as much this year as he did last year. The way I see it, he typically wins his positioning battles when he first goes out there. 5-6 minutes of game time later and he looks like he's fighting tiredness just as much as his man. But I thought the same last year. The only real difference I see is that he falls down a couple less times per game.
I recall Hibbert being pushed around inside the paint by Carl Landry during the Warriors game.....:(

However....most every Player that Hibbert plays against will always have a lower center of gravity than he does :shrug:

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2012, 02:41 AM
I think Roy's offense looks about the same, he's just missing some shots and rushing things which is what he does whenever he gets in these funks. In the Warriors game he started showing touch on the lefty hook and appeared to be recovering his shot confidence.

Maybe let's not sell the car just because it's a little low on gas. I agree that some issues are frustrating, disappointing or worrisome, but this idea that everything is 100% broken is silly. It only needs to be 10-15% broken in a couple of places for things to go totally to s***, which is what's happened to the offense to start the year.

But this 5 should be our boys for another 4-5 years and should be capable of that. This whole "it will never be right" and "Danny will never return" talk is just such hyperbole at this point.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 10:22 AM
Go ahead and replace Nene with West and that team is still going to suck without Wall and nope Denver didn't get better you are acting like he was sucking the life out of the team, stop making bs up to make yourself feel better.

The Nuggets winning percentage went up after the Nene trade whether you like it or not. Before the Nene trade, 24-20, after 14-8. I don't know that he was sucking the life out of them or that it was even his fault, but he was hurt for a portion of the season the team's winning percentage went up after he was moved. That is what I do know. So I am not making up BS.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 10:28 AM
I think Roy's offense looks about the same, he's just missing some shots and rushing things which is what he does whenever he gets in these funks. In the Warriors game he started showing touch on the lefty hook and appeared to be recovering his shot confidence.

Maybe let's not sell the car just because it's a little low on gas. I agree that some issues are frustrating, disappointing or worrisome, but this idea that everything is 100% broken is silly. It only needs to be 10-15% broken in a couple of places for things to go totally to s***, which is what's happened to the offense to start the year.

But this 5 should be our boys for another 4-5 years and should be capable of that. This whole "it will never be right" and "Danny will never return" talk is just such hyperbole at this point.

Agree with all of this with one small caveat. My concern with Hibbert is less about his broken shot, and more about his fragile ego. It's always been fragile, and the broken shot so far this year is a symptom of a consistent underlying problem he's had since he was drafted here.

I think when people start to see the sky falling with Hibbert, it's likely more around that then his putrid offensive production so far this year. If that resolves, then his work ethic, good health, and inherent size advantage will take care of the rest.

Totally agree however, that we saw a glimpse of "Old Roy" during the GSW game.

Wonder how that carries through against Noah tonight? :)

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 10:37 AM
I think Roy's offense looks about the same, he's just missing some shots and rushing things which is what he does whenever he gets in these funks. In the Warriors game he started showing touch on the lefty hook and appeared to be recovering his shot confidence.

Maybe let's not sell the car just because it's a little low on gas. I agree that some issues are frustrating, disappointing or worrisome, but this idea that everything is 100% broken is silly. It only needs to be 10-15% broken in a couple of places for things to go totally to s***, which is what's happened to the offense to start the year.

But this 5 should be our boys for another 4-5 years and should be capable of that. This whole "it will never be right" and "Danny will never return" talk is just such hyperbole at this point.


5 more years with this same group? I just threw it up in my mouth a bit, damn thanks for making me feel sick so early in the morning.

Constellations
12-04-2012, 10:38 AM
5 more years with this same group? I just threw it up in my mouth a bit, damn thanks for making me feel sick so early in the morning.

Maybe you're pregnant.

Anthem
12-04-2012, 11:21 AM
That thread is showing way more people than the ones you are mentioning not only that but a lot of people wanted him for less than max money, I'm pretty sure that 90% of PD wanted Roy Hibbert for less than max and they wanted Hill for less than 8mil, the fact is that at the end of the day people wanted them even if it was for one mil less here and there.
Of course I hoped we'd get Roy for less than the max. I think the FO did the right thing in matching Portland's offer, though. I wasn't sure who we were bidding against on Hill's payday, but he's been trying pretty hard to prove he's worth it. Get Danny back and healthy and I'm very happy with this team.

I guess when I read your posts, I just don't understand why you go nuclear so frequently. Most of the people on here are trying to have a nice, rational discussion. You've proven you're capable of that. You're as smart as anybody here, but your absolute insistence that you're never ever ever ever ever ever wrong just gives you less credibility, not more.

Anthem
12-04-2012, 11:30 AM
Danny might return but at what level? What condition is he going to be in...and how many minutes are they going to risk playing him? He has been nursing that knee for some time now...and each year it's getting worse rather than better.
Ok, so it went from a flat-out "Danny's not coming back for the playoffs" to "Danny won't be in good shape when he gets here" to "Danny's knee could be a long-term issue." Way to make a definitive statement.

We'll see what happens... my understanding of the procedure and the time off is that it is an attempt to fix this long-term issue. If it's fixed, and if the knee is actually responsible for some of Danny's declining play over the past few years, then we might go to a whole new level as a team.

Heck, even if Danny could give us 80% of his best for the late-season run and the playoffs, that would be excellent.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 11:35 AM
Of course I hoped we'd get Roy for less than the max. I think the FO did the right thing in matching Portland's offer, though. I wasn't sure who we were bidding against on Hill's payday, but he's been trying pretty hard to prove he's worth it. Get Danny back and healthy and I'm very happy with this team.

I guess when I read your posts, I just don't understand why you go nuclear so frequently. Most of the people on here are trying to have a nice, rational discussion. You've proven you're capable of that. You're as smart as anybody here, but your absolute insistence that you're never ever ever ever ever ever wrong just gives you less credibility, not more.

That's bs and you know that, if there is somebody on this forum that acts like he is never wrong and is riding a high horse his name is Anthem, you don't like to thank people and you always act like you are better than anybody here.

So as a high horse riding person that you are I don't think you have the right to tell me anything.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 11:42 AM
Ok, so it went from a flat-out "Danny's not coming back for the playoffs" to "Danny won't be in good shape when he gets here" to "Danny's knee could be a long-term issue." Way to make a definitive statement.

Danny's knee issue has been a long term issue since college what is so hard to understand? you are just in denial.


We'll see what happens... my understanding of the procedure and the time off is that it is an attempt to fix this long-term issue. If it's fixed, and if the knee is actually responsible for some of Danny's declining play over the past few years, then we might go to a whole new level as a team.

Heck, even if Danny could give us 80% of his best for the late-season run and the playoffs, that would be excellent.

The procedure was an attempt to reduce the pain that he is having on the knee it's not to "fix" and issue, according to reports his knee injuries are not fixable.

Trader Joe
12-04-2012, 12:01 PM
That's bs and you know that, if there is somebody on this forum that acts like he is never wrong and is riding a high horse his name is Anthem, you don't like to thank people and you always act like you are better than anybody here.

So as a high horse riding person that you are I don't think you have the right to tell me anything.

Lol what?

docpaul
12-04-2012, 12:07 PM
Danny's knee issue has been a long term issue since college what is so hard to understand? you are just in denial.

I can't find any evidence about what specifically his knee issues were, and it's not clear whether we're talking about the same knee either. But I do remember conversation around his knee being a reason he dropped. Wierd how Google is seemingly unaware of this now?


The procedure was an attempt to reduce the pain that he is having on the knee it's not to "fix" and issue, according to reports his knee injuries are not fixable.

Neither of these are really true. He had a PRP injection in the tendon, which is meant to accelerate healing from chronic wear/tear injury on the tendon. Basically, tendinosis is chronic damage to a tendon, and from what I've read, it's his patellar tendon (the distal aspect of it). There are only three ways of dealing with this sort of injury: 1) prolonged rest which allows his body to recover on it's own accord, 2) accelerated healing through an injection like he had, and 3) surgical resection of the affected tissue in his knee.

I hate to say it, but this is the same injury that MDJ had. Remember how they talked about "removing calcifications in his tendon?" The full expression of chronic damage in a tendon is calcification. I doubt it's quite as severe in Danny's case because they wouldn't have likely injected PRP into calcified tendon.

But: PRP injections don't relieve pain (they actually hurt like hell for some time by all accounts), and the injection was meant to accelerate healing and potentially resolve the problem.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 12:28 PM
I can't find any evidence about what specifically his knee issues were, and it's not clear whether we're talking about the same knee either. But I do remember conversation around his knee being a reason he dropped. Wierd how Google is seemingly unaware of this now?

I think we are talking about another knee issue, I'm pretty sure that his problem since college was something else, I can't find anything in Google either.


Neither of these are really true. He had a PRP injection in the tendon, which is meant to accelerate healing from chronic wear/tear injury on the tendon. Basically, tendinosis is chronic damage to a tendon, and from what I've read, it's his patellar tendon (the distal aspect of it). There are only three ways of dealing with this sort of injury: 1) prolonged rest which allows his body to recover on it's own accord, 2) accelerated healing through an injection like he had, and 3) surgical resection of the affected tissue in his knee.

I hate to say it, but this is the same injury that MDJ had. Remember how they talked about "removing calcifications in his tendon?" The full expression of chronic damage in a tendon is calcification. I doubt it's quite as severe in Danny's case because they wouldn't have likely injected PRP into calcified tendon.

But: PRP injections don't relieve pain (they actually hurt like hell for some time by all accounts), and the injection was meant to accelerate healing and potentially resolve the problem.

I think we are talking about the same thing but you are better than me at explaining it, my point is that even if this "new" tendon issue is resolved he is still gonna have to deal with the knee problems he always had to deal with(since college).


edit: Here is the part that tell us that is a "new" injury, or maybe is the problematic knee that go worse?


But the loss of Granger, who injured the knee in last season's Miami series and tweaked it in an off-season workout,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2012/10/30/danny-granger-indiana-pacers-nba/1668969/

docpaul
12-04-2012, 01:05 PM
Yeah, we probably are saying the same thing.

However, we might differ on the prognosis: you *can* repair tendinosis. It's not fatal to his career, but everyone should temper expectations appropriately. This doesn't just go away with a couple of weeks of rest, and this injury is an accumulation of significant wear/tear to his tendon.

Seeing the same Granger as last year at some point during the season is probably best case scenario.

Since86
12-04-2012, 01:12 PM
Gotta love it. Vnzla calls out Anthem for him riding his high horse, then goes on to say that Danny's knee injury is from far back as college, and that it cannot be fixed.

Docpaul comes in, gets Vnlza to admit that we don't know if the knee injury is even in the same knee as the college worries, and that you can fix the injury. Vnzla then claims that docpaul and he are making the same point......

All while he just called Anthem out for not being able to admit when he's wrong. :laugh:

aamcguy
12-04-2012, 01:20 PM
Gotta love it. Vnzla calls out Anthem for him riding his high horse, then goes on to say that Danny's knee injury is from far back as college, and that it cannot be fixed.

Docpaul comes in, gets Vnlza to admit that we don't know if the knee injury is even in the same knee as the college worries, and that you can fix the injury. Vnzla then claims that docpaul and he are making the same point......

All while he just called Anthem out for not being able to admit when he's wrong. :laugh:

Want more irony? You and vnlza81 are constantly arguing with each other. His avatar is Stewie and your avatar is Stewie as Vader fighting Obi-Wan!

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 01:21 PM
Gotta love it. Vnzla calls out Anthem for him riding his high horse, then goes on to say that Danny's knee injury is from far back as college, and that it cannot be fixed.

If it could be fixed how come teams didn't want to draft him and how come he haven't got it fix?


Docpaul comes in, gets Vnlza to admit that we don't know if the knee injury is even in the same knee as the college worries, and that you can fix the injury. Vnzla then claims that docpaul and he are making the same point......

All while he just called Anthem out for not being able to admit when he's wrong. :laugh:

It's the same point but of course you are going to disagree because you have an ax to grind and you are "Mr semantics", good try though.

Since86
12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
Nothing I said has to do with semantics. No ax, just like laughing at funny situations. Carry on.

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
Yeah, we probably are saying the same thing.

However, we might differ on the prognosis: you *can* repair tendinosis. It's not fatal to his career, but everyone should temper expectations appropriately. This doesn't just go away with a couple of weeks of rest, and this injury is an accumulation of significant wear/tear to his tendon.

Seeing the same Granger as last year at some point during the season is probably best case scenario.

Isn't tendinosis the same thing Dunleavy had? I understand that was not fatal to his career but Manleavy was not Manleavy after that surgery.

docpaul
12-04-2012, 01:41 PM
Isn't tendinosis the same thing Dunleavy had? I understand that was not fatal to his career but Manleavy was not Manleavy after that surgery.

Yeah, read my previous post to you. :) "This is the same injury that MDJ had."

However, Manleavy has never been an appropriate nickname for his style of play.

Outside of that one game last year where he laid Hansbrough out. :)

Eleazar
12-04-2012, 03:30 PM
Isn't tendinosis the same thing Dunleavy had? I understand that was not fatal to his career but Manleavy was not Manleavy after that surgery.

He looks pretty much the same to me. One season of scoring well above his career average then dropping back to his career average just tells me he had one really good season, and his injury had nothing to do with him dropping back down to how he normally played.

Anthem
12-04-2012, 04:05 PM
That's bs and you know that, if there is somebody on this forum that acts like he is never wrong and is riding a high horse his name is Anthem, you don't like to thank people and you always act like you are better than anybody here.

So as a high horse riding person that you are I don't think you have the right to tell me anything.
Dude, who's talking about rights? It's a free country and a free forum; you've got the right to say and do what you want if it's within the rules.

I'm just telling you that this tendency to take everything to the next emotional level (demonstrated really well by this post, actually) does you no favors. You'd have more credibility if you occasionally said "I don't agree but I can see where you're coming from" or "Oh, my mistake, I wasn't right about that particular issue."

vnzla81
12-04-2012, 04:17 PM
Dude, who's talking about rights? It's a free country and a free forum; you've got the right to say and do what you want if it's within the rules.

I'm just telling you that this tendency to take everything to the next emotional level (demonstrated really well by this post, actually) does you no favors. You'd have more credibility if you occasionally said "I don't agree but I can see where you're coming from" or "Oh, my mistake, I wasn't right about that particular issue."

I've tell people I'm sorry and my bad when they deserve it, Bills, Peck and others are prove of that.