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Steagles
11-29-2012, 09:56 PM
http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=8692304&i=TWT&w=1cdkb

MIAMI -- San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich sent stars Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, plus key role player Danny Green, home for Thursday night's game against the Miami Heat, choosing rest instead of playing them in an early-season showdown.

NBA commissioner David Stern promised repercussions for the move, saying the Spurs will face "substantial sanctions" for their approach to the game.

"I apologize to all NBA fans," Stern said in a statement. "This was an unacceptable decision by the San Antonio Spurs and substantial sanctions will be forthcoming."

Popovich sent the four players on a commercial flight back to Texas instead of playing them in a fourth game in five nights in Miami, a move he said he decided on when the schedule came out in July.

That group will prepare for the team's home game Saturday night against the Memphis Grizzlies, who own the league's best record, instead of playing the Heat, who came in with the Eastern Conference's best record at 10-3.

With Stephen Jackson and Kawhi Leonard out with injuries, the Spurs will take on the Heat without six of their top players. They will have nine players in uniform.

"It's the best thing for our team," Popovich said. "Everybody has to make decisions about their schedule. We've done this before in hopes we're making a wiser decision and not a macho decision. Perhaps it'll give us an opportunity to stay on the floor with Memphis on Saturday night."

The Spurs have rested Duncan, Parker and Ginobili and have not had them travel to various road games several times during the past several seasons as they monitor their aging stars' minutes. Popovich said he included Green this time because he's led the team in minutes during the first month of the season.

The Spurs played their 11th road game of the month in Miami and are at the end of a six-game trip. They are 5-0 on the trip and 9-1 on the road this season. They won at Toronto, Washington and Orlando during the past four days, teams with a combined record of 9-34.

"Every team goes through tough months travelwise," Popovich said. "You don't ***** and moan about it. You deal with it the best way you can."

The Heat had a distinct rest advantage, having not played since last Saturday. They prepared for the Spurs not playing their full roster.

"Every team is different. It's not the first time (Popovich) has done it and it's not a surprise," Heat coach Erik Spoelstra said. "We're not going to get caught up in things we can't control."

Steagles
11-29-2012, 09:59 PM
Personally, I am offended as a fan that the commissioner would be so power crazy. That is on acceptable on Stern's part.


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Basketball Fan
11-29-2012, 10:01 PM
The Colts should be glad Roger Goodell never adopted this approach especially a few seasons ago when we almost went for perfection instead we have divisional matchups to end the season.

pacer4ever
11-29-2012, 10:06 PM
Spurs do this every year. Hell I remember last year they did this when they had an 11 game win streak I think its smart and it's stupid if they do punish them. Only reason they are getting punished is it's a national TV game and stations bid big money on these type of matchups. It's still wrong though they shouldn't get punished for doing what is best for the team.

Kstat
11-29-2012, 10:08 PM
Personally, I am offended as a fan that the commissioner would be so power crazy. That is on acceptable on Stern's part.


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I'm pretty sure the NBA's corporate sponsors and biggest broadcast partner paying them hundreds of millions of dollars would disagree with you.

Agree with it or not, this is a business. And Thursday night is the NBA's biggest national showcase.

Hypnotiq
11-29-2012, 10:11 PM
Personally, I am offended as a fan that the commissioner would be so power crazy. That is on acceptable on Stern's part.


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????

Doddage
11-29-2012, 10:13 PM
Spurs do this every year. Hell I remember last year they did this when they had an 11 game win streak I think its smart and it's stupid if they do punish them. Only reason they are getting punished is it's a national TV game and stations bid big money on these type of matchups. It's still wrong though they shouldn't get punished for doing what is best for the team.
But how is it fair to the fans that are paying money to see a game? The fans are the ones who are putting money into the NBA product. If the players aren't injured or have some other personal matter to attend to, they need to play.

15th parallel
11-29-2012, 10:15 PM
Personally as a fan I am not offended by the Spurs' move. They have always done that in the past and I understand their decision to sit their top guys. Besides, I even think Spurs fans generally do not see it as a problem. I have a friend who's a Spurs fan and he did not complain about it.

Currently they're doing well against the Heat, so it's that one-sided as many assumed it will turn out to be.

shags
11-29-2012, 10:16 PM
Well, thanks to Tom Haberstroh's twitter (@tomhaberstroh), there is precedent. Pat Riley was fined $25,000 for not playing Magic Johnson and James Worthy in 1990. http://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/25/sports/sports-people-pro-basketball-resting-two-players-brings-lakers-a-fine.html

If they only fine Pop $25,000, then there's no chance he doesn't do this again. I guess Pop's lesson will be: don't do this on a nationally televised game.

shags
11-29-2012, 10:17 PM
But how is it fair to the fans that are paying money to see a game? The fans are the ones who are putting money into the NBA product. If the players aren't injured or have some other personal matter to attend to, they need to play.

They're not playing the Pistons, Bobcats, Kings, or Cavs. They're playing the Miami Heat. LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are playing in this game. In this circumstance, the fans mean nothing.

Kstat
11-29-2012, 10:20 PM
Well, thanks to Tom Haberstroh's twitter (@tomhaberstroh), there is precedent. Pat Riley was fined $25,000 for not playing Magic Johnson and James Worthy in 1990. http://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/25/sports/sports-people-pro-basketball-resting-two-players-brings-lakers-a-fine.html

If they only fine Pop $25,000, then there's no chance he doesn't do this again. I guess Pop's lesson will be: don't do this on a nationally televised game.

...and that should be the message to begin with. Do not do this on a TNT showcase game. A lot of being money is being paid to broadcast and sponsor these games.

billbradley
11-29-2012, 10:21 PM
But what if the Spurs win?

15th parallel
11-29-2012, 10:23 PM
But how is it fair to the fans that are paying money to see a game? The fans are the ones who are putting money into the NBA product. If the players aren't injured or have some other personal matter to attend to, they need to play.

While I don't disagree in your point, I'll put it in the perspective that:

- they are playing against the Heat, in the Heat's home court.
- the paying fans watching the game are mostly, if not all, Miami fans
- while there are those who wanted to see Duncan and co. play live, in general they just wanted to see LeBron and co. providing some highlight-worthy action.

So I think there should be no sanctions, and it shouldn't be a big controversy.

TinManJoshua
11-29-2012, 10:28 PM
But what if the Spurs win?

Then the game will be talked about non-stop on Sportscenter. All that awful, moneyless exposure.

Nuntius
11-29-2012, 10:29 PM
I'm pretty sure the NBA's corporate sponsors and biggest broadcast partner paying them hundreds of millions of dollars would disagree with you.


So? We're fans.

Fans care about their respective teams. It's only logical.

pizza guy
11-29-2012, 10:31 PM
This is dumb. I know it's a business, but some fans actually want to believe it is still the game they loved as a kid. Popovich is a great coach and this is a tactic he uses on occasion. He knows the regular season is just practice for the post season for his team. Who cares if it's Thursday night against the Heat or Monday afternoon against the Wizards? It's Pop's team and his job to do what he feels is best for their success. If Stern feels entitled to fine a coach's decision, I just can't get behind that.

I have always loved the NBA, but the super teams, difficulties of small markets, and the fact that everything is about the money is really starting to wear on me.

Steagles
11-29-2012, 10:33 PM
But how is it fair to the fans that are paying money to see a game? The fans are the ones who are putting money into the NBA product. If the players aren't injured or have some other personal matter to attend to, they need to play.

No, they don't. They pay to see the Miami Heat vs San Antonio Spurs, as it says on the ticket, which they do. The Spurs and Heat are still playing. It doesn't matter if some starters are resting. It is not Popp's job to make David Stern happy. It is his job for the San Antonio Spurs to win games. He just did what was best for his team in the long run. Shame on David Stern. This is ridiculous.


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Nuntius
11-29-2012, 10:37 PM
...and that should be the message to begin with. Do not do this on a TNT showcase game. A lot of being money is being paid to broadcast and sponsor these games.

Then the schedule makers should do a better job.

This is the Spurs' 4th game in 5 nights. The Heat, on the other hand, had 4 days of rest.

How would this be competitive? It wouldn't.

Pops did what was best for his team.

idioteque
11-29-2012, 10:38 PM
I'm pretty sure the NBA's corporate sponsors and biggest broadcast partner paying them hundreds of millions of dollars would disagree with you.

Agree with it or not, this is a business. And Thursday night is the NBA's biggest national showcase.

So where is the line then? Should sponsors be able to dictate to coaches that they have to play their star players a minimum number of minutes for every national television game?

I understand Stern's concern, but it is terrible for him to be making ad-hoc policy like this. As far as I know the Spurs haven't violated any rules.

idioteque
11-29-2012, 10:40 PM
This is all really symptomatic of a bigger problem: the desire to make money means that there are way too many mother****ing games, which is diluting the quality of the game and the excitement of the season.

If I were Pop next time I would tell them to travel, start them, call time out right after the tip and sub them out for the rest of the game just to make a point.

Eleazar
11-29-2012, 10:40 PM
This highlights two problems with the NBA. The length of the season, and the artificial compactness of the schedule. There really is no reason for a team to play 4 games in 5 nights. I understand the NBA's length is all money driven, but I find it hard to believe that the product wouldn't improve by having fewer games within the same time period. Give the players more rest, and they will be more capable of playing at a high level every game.

Kstat
11-29-2012, 10:42 PM
But what if the Spurs win?

It isn't about winning. The ratings for this game will be crap because a big chunk of their viewing audience stopped giving a crap about this game and turned it off before it started.

Stern isn't apologizing to the fans. He's apologizing to TNT, Gatorade and all the other corporate partners that paid the nba a lot of money to sponsor games like this.

aamcguy
11-29-2012, 10:45 PM
No, they don't. They pay to see the Miami Heat vs San Antonio Spurs, as it says on the ticket, which they do. The Spurs and Heat are still playing. It doesn't matter if some starters are resting. It is not Popp's job to make David Stern happy. It is his job for the San Antonio Spurs to win games. He just did what was best for his team in the long run. Shame on David Stern. This is ridiculous.


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If I had shelled out money to watch a specific game only to find that they sent home essentially their 4 best players on the team, I would be pissed. There's no rule for it because it's not normally an issue. So just because they've used the tactic before doesn't make it okay.

It would be easy enough to solve this imo. Just cut out the equivalent chunk of salary for any player who is not injured and not in the building. If I take a day off of work, even if I was sent home by my employer, I don't get paid. It should be roughly equivalent. If they're gonna sit out, they need to be there or lose the pay that they were getting for that game. If the coach then decides to not play them, that's his call. (Ignoring benefits and recognizing that nba players don't work 40 hours a week anyway)

Sollozzo
11-29-2012, 10:45 PM
The Colts should be glad Roger Goodell never adopted this approach especially a few seasons ago when we almost went for perfection instead we have divisional matchups to end the season.


Ha, no kidding! I was there in person (in incredible seats), and it will always be the most offensive sporting event I've ever attended. It was disgraceful for a team in the premier sports league in the country to do what the Colts did. You don't quit on perfection in front of thousands of paying customers (many of whom probably got the tickets as expensive Christmas presents) and millions of people across the country. The people who ran our team were scared to perfect, and that is in direct conflict with everything that a league like the NFL represents. That was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Manning only played here one more season after that game. When it's over, it's over. We dishonored our HOF QB by not letting him have that opportunity.

Sorry to rant about that, but I can feel my blood pressure increase every time I think about that debacle.

Anthem
11-29-2012, 10:47 PM
Imagine for a moment that Pop said "Wow, all three of those guys tweaked an ankle, so we sent them home to get it looked at by home physicians." Would there be "substantial sanctions" then?

Basically, he's getting fined for being honest.

Kstat
11-29-2012, 10:48 PM
Nobody would buy that anyway, and the he'd get suspended for lying about injuries.

Pops 3 best players getting minor injures all off camera at the same time would get investigated, trust me.

Steagles
11-29-2012, 10:50 PM
If I had shelled out money to watch a specific game only to find that they sent home essentially their 4 best players on the team, I would be pissed. There's no rule for it because it's not normally an issue. So just because they've used the tactic before doesn't make it okay.

It would be easy enough to solve this imo. Just cut out the equivalent chunk of salary for any player who is not injured and not in the building. If I take a day off of work, even if I was sent home by my employer, I don't get paid. It should be roughly equivalent. If they're gonna sit out, they need to be there or lose the pay that they were getting for that game. If the coach then decides to not play them, that's his call. (Ignoring benefits and recognizing that nba players don't work 40 hours a week anyway)

I disagree, because the man paying their salary is not the same man that sends them home. The man paying their check also pays the coach's check. I have no problem with what they did. Besides, how many people are affected? Miami is the hotbed for bandwagoners, and it's in Miami. Just because it was a nationally televised game versus the superteam doesn't make it okay for David Stern to do Popp's job. Every time in a starter sits out not due to injury, fine the team. How plausible is that? Not at all. That's why this scenario is just as ridiculous. You have to be consistent.


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aamcguy
11-29-2012, 10:50 PM
Imagine for a moment that Pop said "Wow, all three of those guys tweaked an ankle, so we sent them home to get it looked at by home physicians." Would there be "substantial sanctions" then?

Basically, he's getting fined for being honest.

I'm sure the NBA has some sort of system in place where they are allowed to investigate falsification of injuries for whatever purpose. If he had lied it would be even worse imo because nobody would believe that anyway, especially since they were all healthy the game before.

idioteque
11-29-2012, 10:51 PM
If Stern is apologizing about star players not playing, he needs to apologize to all those Indiana fans who bought 2004-2005 season tickets and all businesses that bought advertising from the Pacers that year. Of course that will never happen. Stern is such a dick.

Sollozzo
11-29-2012, 10:55 PM
It isn't about winning. The ratings for this game will be crap because a big chunk of their viewing audience stopped giving a crap about this game and turned it off before it started.

Stern isn't apologizing to the fans. He's apologizing to TNT, Gatorade and all the other corporate partners that paid the nba a lot of money to sponsor games like this.


To add to that point:

The league is already at a disadvantage tonight because of the Saints-Falcons game. The NFL is already an inherently more popular sport, and those are two fairly popular teams who also happen to be in the same division. One has only lost one game, and the other won the championship just three years ago and has one of the league's most marketable players in Brees. The NBA was already going to lose to the NFL tonight simply because the NFL is more popular. But even less people are going to watch the NBA tonight when you have one of the teams essentially throwing the game.

You can't essentially throw a game on national TV against the defending champions when the league is trying to get viewers from the NFL and not expect the hammer to come down.

aamcguy
11-29-2012, 10:56 PM
I disagree, because the man paying their salary is not the same man that sends them home. The man paying their check also pays the coach's check. I have no problem with what they did. Besides, how many people are affected? Miami is the hotbed for bandwagoners, and it's in Miami. Just because it was a nationally televised game versus the superteam doesn't make it okay for David Stern to do Popp's job. Every time in a starter sits out not due to injury, fine the team. How plausible is that? Not at all. That's why this scenario is just as ridiculous. You have to be consistent.


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Miami is a hotbed of bandwagoners based on what? I'm pretty sure the Miami fan base in Miami is predominantly made up of actual fans. Bandwagoners elsewhere and in fact the ones in Miami are irrelevant to the argument. Just because you don't like how their team was created doesn't mean the fans don't deserve to watch what they paid for. In fact, they have to pay more money for the experience than other teams, so they arguably deserve it more.

And it wouldn't be hard to take away their pay from the game. It would be as easily as treating it like a suspension without pay. I thought as a fan of the Pacers you would realize the league can mandate the loss of salary, cuz our players lost a TON of money in 2004/2005.

If they don't want to play the players, fine. But if they're not injured it should be required they show up. Poppovich basically said "If we lose this game I don't really care."

BRushWithDeath
11-29-2012, 11:00 PM
Well, this is interesting.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/tag/ginbobili/


HANG TIME MIDWEST BUREAU – With his Spurs facing three games in three nights on a West Coast road trip this week — at Golden State, at the L.A. Lakers, at Sacramento — San Antonio coach Gregg Popovich has an opportunity to get creative again with his roster deployment. However he decides to play it — or whoever he decides not to play — is evidently perfectly acceptable to the league.
NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver said Friday that the Spurs would face no fines, suspensions or other reprisals for Popovich’s decision last week to withhold the services of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker from San Antonio’s game at Utah.
“I think this is a unique season,” Silver said. “And the fans understand that competitive strategy is part of what goes into coaching this year. It’s unique and teams like the San Antonio Spurs are playing to win a championship, and I think fans understand that.”
Popovich said he picked that game “pretty much when the schedule came out” and didn’t even have them travel with the club to Salt Lake City. The league was fine with that, Silver said.
“The strategic resting of particular players on particular nights is within the discretion of the teams. And Gregg Popovich in particular is probably the last coach that I would second-guess.”
For the record, the Spurs have held Duncan, Ginobili and Parker out of the same game seven times in their 10 seasons together; their record is 0-7, with a losing margin of 15 points. Last week’s loss at Utah was closer — the Jazz trailed by as many as eight points in the fourth quarter — but Popovich also did it at Portland Feb. 21 and his team got trounced 137-97.
The collective shrug at NBA HQ seems a little surprising, considering the response the Lakers got a couple decades ago when Pat Riley sat out Magic Johnson, James Worthy and Mychal Thompson for the final game of the 1989-90 season. L.A. got destroyed by 42 points that night at Portland and the league fined the Lakers $25,000. Even their owner, Jerry Buss, was quoted at the time: “Our fans would have been disappointed if the same thing happened here.”
Utah forward Paul Millsap felt insulted, calling the move “a slap in the face” and citing it as “a little motivation that … got us through.”
Popovich said he was just doing right by the Spurs, in reaction to the frantic post-lockout schedule. “However you want to look at it, 13 games in 18 days, or 16 games in 23 days or ending the season four in five nights, it’s just crazy,” he said that night. “So I’ve got to do something about it.”
But that?

Is Adam Silver going to be facing "significant sanctions" from Stern also?

idioteque
11-29-2012, 11:00 PM
To add to that point:

The league is already at a disadvantage tonight because of the Saints-Falcons game. The NFL is already an inherently more popular sport, and those are two fairly popular teams who also happen to be in the same division. One has only lost one game, and the other won the championship just three years ago and has one of the league's most marketable players in Brees. The NBA was already going to lose to the NFL tonight simply because the NFL is more popular. But even less people are going to watch the NBA tonight when you have one of the teams essentially throwing the game.

You can't essentially throw a game on national TV against the defending champions when the league is trying to get viewers from the NFL and not expect the hammer to come down.

I think push is starting to come to shove here, the NBA can't have its cake and eat it too. Does San Antonio really need to go to Indiana, Toronto, Washington, and Orlando every year? Stern is diluting the product by mandating so many games, which puts a lot of wear and tear on the players. Obviously no one but Pops has done anything this drastic, but I bet at some point during a national televised game in the middle of a road trip a coach gave some starters extra rest. This kind of stuff is destined to happen given the NBA's rigorous schedule.

I think the NBA would be more popular and have a better product with less games, part of the aura of the NFL is that the teams don't play as much, people always want more. Meanwhile we all groan about having to sit through the 4th Bucks-Pacers game every year.

Steagles
11-29-2012, 11:00 PM
Popp shouldn't care! He is doing what is in the best interest of his team. And as for bandwagoners, lots of people like Miami just for LeBron or because they won the championship. Their stadium is always packed with heat fans. So, the ticket issue is not a problem.


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pizza guy
11-29-2012, 11:02 PM
It just kills me that Stern is openly admitting to anyone who has enough sense to think about it that he does not care about the game, doesn't care about winning, doesn't care about players - it's all about the money, boys!

Look at the exact opposite in our game against the Lakers: Pop sits healthy players in a largely meaningless game (non-conference, November game) to keep them healthy, and Stern is going to fine them. Kobe plays with the flu in a largely meaningless game (non-conference, November game), and of course there is nothing. If Stern gave a hoot about the players, the fine would be for playing the sick player, not keeping the healthy players healthy.

$$$$$$$$$$$ >>>> the game, the players, the fans

Sandman21
11-29-2012, 11:02 PM
I can't wait until February 2014.

Sollozzo
11-29-2012, 11:04 PM
It just kills me that Stern is openly admitting to anyone who has enough sense to think about it that he does not care about the game, doesn't care about winning, doesn't care about players - it's all about the money, boys!


Everything revolves around money. It's best to just accept that, because it's neverr going to change. Stern knows that the NBA was already going to lose against the NFL tonight. Having the Spurs throw the game ensured that even less people would watch. As Commissioner, that's going to upset you. How can you even try to compete against the NFL tonight when one of your teams clearly doesn't give a damn?

aamcguy
11-29-2012, 11:06 PM
Popp shouldn't care! He is doing what is in the best interest of his team. And as for bandwagoners, lots of people like Miami just for LeBron or because they won the championship. Their stadium is always packed with heat fans. So, the ticket issue is not a problem.


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When I pick the Pacers games I go to, I consider the teams I'm going to watch every single time. It's not strange to think that Heat fans would pick certain games to see certain players. They sure didn't pay to watch the Boris Diaw highlight machine.


And as for the adam silver/no fine thing from last year...in the part after the first bold he said that that season was unique, talking about its condensed state. Unique, as in it's not the same as this year.

Kstat
11-29-2012, 11:08 PM
Btw, there's no slippery slope here. You're best guys have to at least be in the building and give the appearance that they're going to play, so your viewing audience doesn't turn the channel before the game even starts.

MrSparko
11-29-2012, 11:08 PM
Turns out that the Spurs might have just had a secret strategy to win the game after all.

Sandman21
11-29-2012, 11:08 PM
And as for the adam silver/no fine thing from last year...in the part after the first bold he said that that season was unique, talking about its condensed state. Unique, as in it's not the same as this year.

Evidentally not all that unique if the Spurs are playing 4 games in 5 nights during a traditional 82 game season....

aamcguy
11-29-2012, 11:12 PM
Evidentally not all that unique if the Spurs are playing 4 games in 5 nights during a traditional 82 game season....

However, they were already in Florida from their game in Orlando the night before and it was a blowout from the beginning. They could have easily only played their guys 20 minutes then put them out for 20 minutes the next night if they wanted to rest them.

They get paid ridiculous amounts of money for being very good at something that people like to watch. Saying that they need rest from 4 hours of availability and 30 minutes of basketball is ridiculous. They're professionals.

MillerTime
11-29-2012, 11:16 PM
Where does it say that every team must play they best players at all times? Would it make a difference if this was the playoffs and the Spurs were up 3-0?

If they get fined, I expect them to appeal

NapTonius Monk
11-29-2012, 11:19 PM
Man, this is some of the most inspired basketball I've ever seen in the NBA! I can understand where Stern is coming from as far as marketability and sponsorship concerns, but this group is just flat outplaying the Heat right now.

vnzla81
11-29-2012, 11:20 PM
I'm taking back whatever I said about Pop not playing the starters, I'm loving this game tonight.

Ace E.Anderson
11-29-2012, 11:20 PM
They're going to pull it out in the closing minutes, but the HEAT are the ones that should be receiving sanctions for even making this close. Absolutely UNACCEPTABLE! Lol

vnzla81
11-29-2012, 11:24 PM
Diaw is playing some good D tonight I wonder where are the people that said that he sucks on D?

aamcguy
11-29-2012, 11:24 PM
They're going to pull it out in the closing minutes, but the HEAT are the ones that should be receiving sanctions for even making this close. Absolutely UNACCEPTABLE!

It's worth noting that the Heat defense is solid for everything but excellent ball movement and good 3 point shooting. Which is what the entire Spurs team does well.

Eleazar
11-29-2012, 11:50 PM
However, they were already in Florida from their game in Orlando the night before and it was a blowout from the beginning. They could have easily only played their guys 20 minutes then put them out for 20 minutes the next night if they wanted to rest them.

They get paid ridiculous amounts of money for being very good at something that people like to watch. Saying that they need rest from 4 hours of availability and 30 minutes of basketball is ridiculous. They're professionals.


Well then the NFL should go to two games a week and double the amount of games in a season, and there should only be one starting pitcher. :eyeroll: Yeah they are professionals, but it isn't like they are playing a nice relaxing sport like bowling. There is a physical toll taken by these players, and it only gets more difficult as they get older (notice Pop is resting his old guys not his young ones). It isn't like high school or college were you play one game a week, so when you do play multiple games within 2 or 3 days you are more physically able to recover quickly. For the most part these guys are playing almost every other day already. That is why you hear about players "taking a night off". It isn't because they are lazy, but because they just can't play that many games in such a compact schedule.

Nuntius
11-29-2012, 11:56 PM
The ratings for this game will be crap because a big chunk of their viewing audience stopped giving a crap about this game and turned it off before it started.

Stern isn't apologizing to the fans. He's apologizing to TNT, Gatorade and all the other corporate partners that paid the nba a lot of money to sponsor games like this.

I agree. But I don't find a reason that we, as fans, should care about Stern apologizing to TNT, Gatorade and all the other corporate partners.

aamcguy
11-29-2012, 11:59 PM
Well then the NFL should go to two games a week and double the amount of games in a season, and there should only be one starting pitcher. :eyeroll: Yeah they are professionals, but it isn't like they are playing a nice relaxing sport like bowling. There is a physical toll taken by these players, and it only gets more difficult as they get older (notice Pop is resting his old guys not his young ones). It isn't like high school or college were you play one game a week, so when you do play multiple games within 2 or 3 days you are more physically able to recover quickly. For the most part these guys are playing almost every other day already. That is why you hear about players "taking a night off". It isn't because they are lazy, but because they just can't play that many games in such a compact schedule.

Millions of Americans who work labor intensive jobs eight hours a day, five days a week are calling BS on the inability of professional athletes to go play an hour of basketball after playing 2 hours the night before.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 12:06 AM
How can you even try to compete against the NFL tonight when one of your teams clearly doesn't give a damn?

If you care so much about trying to compete against the NFL then how about trying to keep your featured game competitive?

Because the scheduling disparity between the Spurs and the Heat the last 5 days pretty much made sure that the game wouldn't be competitive from the get go.

Want Pop to play all his players?

Then make a better schedule for all parties involved.

pizza guy
11-30-2012, 12:20 AM
Well then the NFL should go to two games a week and double the amount of games in a season, and there should only be one starting pitcher. :eyeroll: Yeah they are professionals, but it isn't like they are playing a nipce relaxing sport like bowling. There is a physical toll taken by these players, and it only gets more difficult as they get older (notice Pop is resting his old guys not his young ones). It isn't like high school or college were you play one game a week, so when you do play multiple games within 2 or 3 days you are more physically able to recover quickly. For the most part these guys are playing almost every other day already. That is why you hear about players "taking a night off". It isn't because they are lazy, but because they just can't play that many games in such a compact schedule.

While it really has no importance to this thread, as a life-long bowler, I have to say that competitive, especially professional bowling, is a very taxing game. I won't say it's comparable to the NBA or NFL, but it's an entirely different game than when you go bowling with your friends to goof around and have a beer.

*flies away*

Kstat
11-30-2012, 12:24 AM
I agree. But I don't find a reason that we, as fans, should care about Stern apologizing to TNT, Gatorade and all the other corporate partners.

I'm not saying you should care. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to criticize stern for protecting his business.

As a basketball fan, I thought this was a fun game. But the nba cators to a much broader audience than people like me.

Pingu
11-30-2012, 12:25 AM
Millions of Americans who work labor intensive jobs eight hours a day, five days a week are calling BS on the inability of professional athletes to go play an hour of basketball after playing 2 hours the night before.

Yes, because the fact that millions of Americans work labor intensive jobs eight hours/day automatically increases the stamina of NBA players...

LetsTalkPacers84
11-30-2012, 12:29 AM
Didn't realize there were so many bandwagon fans on here.

I pay to watch a basketball game, not to see any one player.

As long as the team in the Pacers jerseys beat the team in away jerseys, I'm happy.

Trader Joe
11-30-2012, 12:31 AM
Imagine for a moment that Pop said "Wow, all three of those guys tweaked an ankle, so we sent them home to get it looked at by home physicians." Would there be "substantial sanctions" then?

Basically, he's getting fined for being honest.

No man, teams lie all the time.

naptownmenace
11-30-2012, 12:32 AM
As much as I can't stand Stern, I agree with him. You can't just send your players back home for some PTO in the NBA - especially not on a night when the game is nationally televised.

As far as Pop resting his players is concerned, it doesn't really seem to make much of a difference in the long run. Ginobilli always gets hurt and misses his regular 10-20 games each year and they haven't made it to the finals in more than 5 years.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 12:37 AM
I'm not saying you should care. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to criticize stern for protecting his business.

As a basketball fan, I thought this was a fun game. But the nba cators to a much broader audience than people like me.

Personally, I don't care about Stern. I'm not going to criticize him or congratulate him for anything.

All I'm saying is that Pops made the right decision for his club.

LetsTalkPacers84
11-30-2012, 12:38 AM
Also fwiw, I watched the game BECAUSE they didn't play. I wouldn't have watched otherwise. I can say this was true for at least 3 other PD posters. So to say this hurt ratings isn't necessarily true.

DemonHunter1105
11-30-2012, 12:48 AM
I have started to reply to some of these posts and had to stop multiple times. What I have realized is that both Stern and Pop were doing the right thing to maintain the success of their portion of the business. No one is really right or wrong here, it is actually more of a matter of a opinion than anything. Put yourself in both of their shoes and you can completely understand why they think the way that they do.

I personally feel that unless it directly violates an NBA rule or regulation, the Spurs should not be punished. I mean they almost won the game, how wrong can they be? The only other thing I wanted to mention is that you cannot simply compare regular jobs to NBA players' jobs. Professional athletes are the best at what they do and in a game defined by one thing, the W column, players need to give 100% every night if possible. If team A has played 4 in 5 nights, and team B has had multiple days off before they meet head to head, it is obvious to anyone that team A's 100% wont be as good as the other team's. Skill level and age can change that but in the Spurs' case it is obvious they would have been outmatched against the Heat most nights. If any professional team had to play say 7 games in 7 days, it is only logical that they might dip in energy level and stamina with each game. If they played new teams that had a week off each night, it becomes clear that a disadvantage would be present.

It isn't that professional athletes can't play as often as we think, it is that they can't play at as high of a level as their opponent when the games are bunched together as they are. Always playing against more rested opponents leads to more losses, lower seed, and lower chance of ultimate success in the long run. It is not as simple as "professional athletes should be in good enough shape to play that many games in a stretch." They definitely are able to do it, just not as well against a well-rested, ready opponent.

Peck
11-30-2012, 12:49 AM
This could have all been avoided had Pops not made the big dramatic step of sending them home. Dress them and don't play them if you want but yea, they should at least be in the building.

Also let's stow the "bandwagon" comments. People have a right to pick and choose what games they pay to go see. I happen to have full season tickets but if I were to pick and choose games I can assure you I would not be paying to see the Raptors or Wizards or Bobcats (even though right now they have a better record than us). I would be like anyone else and paying to see the stars. Please don't act like that is a new concept btw, I can show you a photo from the 50's of the marquee of MSG showing the Knicks vs. George Mikan.

Also what does an 82 game schedule have anything to do with this? I mean if it was something new or if it had been around for 5 or even 10 years that would be one thing but this schedule dates back to the 60's. I mean don't get me wrong I would like the NBA to have set nights of the week as well and if it meant a few less games than so be it but this isn't new.

But like I said in the very beginning, all the Spurs would have had to do was not send them home.

OrganizedConfusion
11-30-2012, 12:56 AM
I think Pop has every right to protest the league's scheduling. In February they are slotted for a 9 nine game road trip, so they only play 2 home games that entire month.

diamonddave00
11-30-2012, 01:03 AM
The entire game I kept thinking of Pacers post brawl and was cheering for the undermanned Spurs. I kept waiting for Marcus Haislip, Britton Johnson and Tremaine Fowlkes to check in.

I only had trouble with the 25 year old Danny Green not playing.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
11-30-2012, 01:09 AM
Stern has noone to blame for this but himself. The NBA's scheduling is just ridiculous. Stern's attempts to squeeze every last dollar out of the sport by squeezing as many games as possible into a season is directly related to the amount of injuries and missed games each year. Stern should fine himself for all the stars missing games right now because of injuries.

aamcguy
11-30-2012, 01:33 AM
I think Pop has every right to protest the league's scheduling. In February they are slotted for a 9 nine game road trip, so they only play 2 home games that entire month.

The Spurs have one of those road trips every single year due to their building being used for a rodeo. The Bulls do the same thing for a circus. It's actually something that they work with the league to make sure they get no home games during the time.

ThA HoyA
11-30-2012, 01:34 AM
I think Pop has every right to protest the league's scheduling. In February they are slotted for a 9 nine game road trip, so they only play 2 home games that entire month.

Thats when they have the rodeo in San Antonio been like that for years... It's normal for them

Eleazar
11-30-2012, 01:35 AM
Also what does an 82 game schedule have anything to do with this? I mean if it was something new or if it had been around for 5 or even 10 years that would be one thing but this schedule dates back to the 60's. I mean don't get me wrong I would like the NBA to have set nights of the week as well and if it meant a few less games than so be it but this isn't new.


It might not be something new, but if there wasn't an 82 game schedule there wouldn't be a need to have 4 games in 5 nights. If there weren't 4 games in 5 nights the Spurs wouldn't be resting their star players.

aamcguy
11-30-2012, 01:37 AM
Stern has noone to blame for this but himself. The NBA's scheduling is just ridiculous. Stern's attempts to squeeze every last dollar out of the sport by squeezing as many games as possible into a season is directly related to the amount of injuries and missed games each year. Stern should fine himself for all the stars missing games right now because of injuries.

You say this as if Stern introduced the 82 game season. It was around long before he was the commisioner.

I really like the 82 game season, but then I actually like watching competitive regular season games more than postseason games due to how nervous I get for playoff games lol.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 01:38 AM
The Spurs have one of those road trips every single year due to their building being used for a rodeo. The Bulls do the same thing for a circus. It's actually something that they work with the league to make sure they get no home games during the time.

That's true but that's also the reason that they are pissed off that they had to play most of their November on the road as well.

diamonddave00
11-30-2012, 01:42 AM
4 road games in 5 days made sense with last seasons condensed schedule. But it doesn't with a normal 82 game schedule. Now 1 day off then a 5th road game is 7 days while the Heat had 4 days at home between games? Guess being Champs gets you perks besides calls in games.

Heisenberg
11-30-2012, 01:45 AM
I definitely see both sides of it, I don't think it's as big a deal as it's in the process of being blown up to be, but it's a lose/lose for both sides really. Whether anyone likes it the league has a responsibility to do what they can to put the best product on the floor, that's what gets those billion dollar TV deals and all the advertising, which is obviously what makes the league possible in the first place. That's where Stern's coming from, and if you think it's overzealous or not, that's his responsibility and he's trying to make it happen in such a blatant case.

Pop's reasons are obvious. 4 games in 5 nights, another on Saturday, old roster (except Danny Green, c'mon Pop). It sucks fans won't get to see some great players one night, but his job as a Spurs employee is to put them in the best position to win a title and giving guys a rest day on a long road trip helps that, in theory at least.

It sucks for both sides but I understand both sides. I don't think anyone should be fined/suspended, but I do think Pop and Stern should hash it out. And put that on pay per view.

"Sanctions" is real ballsy move though. What's the difference between this, if Stern's going to go the "apologizing to the fans" route, and tons of guys sitting the last few games when the playoffs are decided. It gives the implication that certain regular season games are more important than others, which is obviously true, but it's not going to do much to help the perception of your league.

Heisenberg
11-30-2012, 01:46 AM
4 road games in 5 days made sense with last seasons condensed schedule. But it doesn't with a normal 82 game schedule. Now 1 day off then a 5th road game is 7 days while the Heat had 4 days at home between games? Guess being Champs gets you perks besides calls in games.

Build a 1230 game schedule and see how easy it is to give out equal amounts of rest.

aamcguy
11-30-2012, 01:54 AM
I don't really understand any complaining about an imbalance of rest between teams or an imbalance in home/away games. Because when a team has a more compact schedule in one week, it means they will have another weak that is a very light schedule. When a team has a lot of road games bunched together, it means they have a lot of home games bunched together somewhere else.

Since every team plays the same number of games and every team has the same amount of home/road games within the same time period, every team will have a rest and/or home court advantage for half the year.

Personally, the fact that the schedule ISN'T completely balanced means you get neat little story lines about which teams are strong in the face of tough scheduling and gives a place for stat splits to be used when comparing teams. Honestly, it makes things more interesting. The NFL doesn't have that, but since each game is weighted so much heavier you're not missing anything there.

Kstat
11-30-2012, 02:40 AM
Every nba team gets one scheduling request. Not only are you building a 1230 game schedule, youre building it around 30 different restrictions.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 02:41 AM
I don't really understand any complaining about an imbalance of rest between teams or an imbalance in home/away games. Because when a team has a more compact schedule in one week, it means they will have another weak that is a very light schedule. When a team has a lot of road games bunched together, it means they have a lot of home games bunched together somewhere else.


This is true in general but we're talking about this specific match-up here.

That's a nationally televised game that was supposed to draw a lot of fans because it would be a derby between two contenders. However, the schedule made sure that one of the two teams wouldn't be able to compete.

Pop had every right to protest the fact that his team was not given an equal opportunity in this game (the fact that this game was nationally televised does matter).

Also, the game that the Spurs are playing in 2 days is much, much more important than the one they played together.

Kstat
11-30-2012, 02:44 AM
This is true in general but we're talking about this specific match-up here.

That's a nationally televised game that was supposed to draw a lot of fans because it would be a derby between two contenders. However, the schedule made sure that one of the two teams wouldn't be able to compete.

Pop had every right to protest the fact that his team was not given an equal opportunity in this game (the fact that this game was nationally televised does matter).

Also, the game that the Spurs are playing in 2 days is much, much more important than the one they played together.

That's ridiculous. Equal opportunity...on an nba schedule?

Should he have protested because Miami gets to use lebron and his team doesn't? That's not fair either....

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 03:01 AM
Should he have protested because Miami gets to use lebron and his team doesn't? That's not fair either....

It is fair because he has Duncan ;)

This game was supposed to be a clash of the titans. It was supposed to be a derby. But that was just fool's gold as the result was already skewed by the schedule making.

Imo, he has every right to protest it.

And once again the game against Memphis in Saturday matters a lot to them. The game against the Heat? It only matters to the media.

xtacy
11-30-2012, 03:32 AM
everytime when i think nba can't be a bigger joke, stern surprises me. he can resign and let tnt manage the nba. i'm sure things can't be worse.

btw almost beating heat without the starters. you gotta respect popovich.

CableKC
11-30-2012, 04:14 AM
Btw, there's no slippery slope here. You're best guys have to at least be in the building and give the appearance that they're going to play, so your viewing audience doesn't turn the channel before the game even starts.
Stern or the NBA shouldn't be in the position to dictate what the Coach or a Team plays. I understand that the NBA is a business.....but where is the line drawn where a Coach is allowed to rest ANY of his Players?

Based off of this punishment.....it sounds like the answer is that there shouldn't be a line drawn.....if the Starting 5 are fair game....then the guy at the end of the bench should "technically" be fair game as well to be fined as well.

I know that there are Stars in the NBA and on Teams....which are light years better than the 15th guy on the roster.....but from the Players and Owners POV.....there shouldn't be any distinction between the Starting 5 and the 15th guy on the bench when it comes to the Coaches decision to rest who he wants to rest.

On top of that....this isn't the first time that Pop has rested the Big 3......much less the first time that any Team has rested any of their key Players. Why hasn't the Spurs ( much less any of the SuperStar Teams with an aging Starting lineup ) been fined last year for doing the same thing? What's the difference? As some have mentioned.....is it just because it's a Thursday night TNT game?

Where is the line drawn when it comes to who MUST play and who DOESN'T NEED to play?

Who decides this now? Stern/NBA or the Team/Coach?

To me, it is a slippery slope.

Heisenberg
11-30-2012, 04:33 AM
Stern issuing punishment on a team/coach/player for no other reason than not playing them is the definition of a slippery slope. When David West doesn't play the last 4 games of the year (I SAID IT!) even though he's healthy, then Vogel or the franchise should get fined. That's the clear precedent.

I realize Stern's on his way out so he doesn't give a damn, and I do sorta kinda agree that Pop sitting his guys hurts the league (for like 12 hours), but you've got to be consistent. Where's the line drawn? November 29th? March 29th? If Stern issues fines or whatever he needs to hit ESPN and NBATV and specifically explain his reasoning. I don't like Pop sitting his guys. But I dislike Stern basically dictating playing time much more. Stern wants to put out a statement bashing Pop, a general "I disagree with their decision" statement, fine. But fining a coach for managing his roster how he sees fit is just way too much.

King Tuts Tomb
11-30-2012, 05:04 AM
Popovich has always liked sticking his finger in the David Stern's eye but it's always been harmless stuff. Once you start messing with people's money, that's when the problems start. Can't blame Stern for being mad. The league builds the season narrative through strategically placed games throughout the year. Pop knows the deal, it's part of the reason his paycheck has so many 0's on it.

immortality
11-30-2012, 05:39 AM
Pop should have just benched his starters rather than sending them home. I think Popovich took it to the extreme, and since the game is nationally televised, not only does it disappoint fans but it loses business too. If this game wasn't televised, I think Stern's would have been less infuriated.

Kstat
11-30-2012, 05:44 AM
Stern issuing punishment on a team/coach/player for no other reason than not playing them is the definition of a slippery slope. When David West doesn't play the last 4 games of the year (I SAID IT!) even though he's healthy, then Vogel or the franchise should get fined. That's the clear precedent.

I realize Stern's on his way out so he doesn't give a damn, and I do sorta kinda agree that Pop sitting his guys hurts the league (for like 12 hours), but you've got to be consistent. Where's the line drawn? November 29th? March 29th? If Stern issues fines or whatever he needs to hit ESPN and NBATV and specifically explain his reasoning. I don't like Pop sitting his guys. But I dislike Stern basically dictating playing time much more. Stern wants to put out a statement bashing Pop, a general "I disagree with their decision" statement, fine. But fining a coach for managing his roster how he sees fit is just way too much.

Advertisers know games at the end of the season are hit and miss because of playoff prep. They expect that and I'm sure TNT negotiates the ad fees accordingly.

What they DONT expect is for someone to arbitrarily sit his star players 4 weeks into the season.

Things like injuries, suspensions, can't be helped. This could have.

It isn't that he didn't play them, it's that he sent them home knowing that it was THE most-watched marquee NBA game this week.

And yes, it absolutely matters more because it was a TNT game. The NBA is a business. They make a lot of their money through national TV revenue, and those broadcasting partners expect that when the best players can play, that they will play.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 05:52 AM
It isn't that he didn't play them, it's that he sent them home knowing that it was THE most-watched marquee NBA game this week.

And yes, it absolutely matters more because it was a TNT game. The NBA is a busines.

And that's exactly why Pops send them home.

The schedule makers knew as well that this was THE most-watched marquee NBA game this week. So, they should do their best to give both teams an equal chance at winning. They didn't. They skewed the outcome with the scheduling.

So, the league didn't respect that this was THE most-watched marquee NBA game. Why should Pops respect it then?

Kstat
11-30-2012, 05:56 AM
It isn't his place to take his ball and go home.

If Pop wanted to play his starters 5 minutes and yank them, that's fine. But are you telling me they're so tired 4 weeks into the season that they couldn't make the plane trip and give a token appearance? That's weak.

Everyone knew an hour before the game that the spurs sent their best guys home. I imagine a big chunk of TNT's audience never bothered to tune in because of that. That decision cost TNT ratings, and no doubt pissed off advertisers.

The NBA makes close to a billion dollars a year on TV revenue. This is a big deal.

Heisenberg
11-30-2012, 06:03 AM
The Spurs have terrible TV ratings. Despite them being perpetually outstanding their playoff ratings are awful. I'd put good money on this whole thing INCREASING TNT's rating tonight. We'll never know, the numbers are too fungible, but I very much think this whole thing increased TNT's rating.

Naptown_Seth
11-30-2012, 06:13 AM
I'm pretty sure the NBA's corporate sponsors and biggest broadcast partner paying them hundreds of millions of dollars would disagree with you.

Agree with it or not, this is a business. And Thursday night is the NBA's biggest national showcase.
Hmmm, so with playoff positions on the line for some teams it's no big deal to limit minutes on your star players when you have your own position clinched by game 79-80, but god forbid you do the EXACT SAME THING at game 16 when it suits your team's needs far more.

Stern is an insane power monger who has had a rep built by piggy-backing a game and stars that were going to TCOB without him. I'm so sick of the praise he gets when all I see is every single clear choice by him seems to hurt the game and all the things that are great about the game come from the participants themselves or pioneers, ie Bird, Magic, Jabbar, Jordan, Dr J, Gervin and the ABA. Stern had nothing to do with the MSU-ISU NCAA title game having such high ratings, that was star power pure and simple.

I'd go down his entire list, but this is about the current issue. Stern DOES NOT FINE teams for bad trades that ruin franchises, didn't fine OKC for removing all of the Seattle fans and sponsors' ability to see NBA stars at all, let alone for one night, never fines teams for doing salary dumps that let players like Baron Davis or Sheed go to some new team on the cheap, doesn't fine Dwight Howard for pouting his way out of Orlando, and so on.

See, in those cases it's just the game and the franchises and if their choices make for a bad fan experience then that's just the way it goes. But suddenly the Spurs work the system and they are punished for it.

The Spurs have PUT THEMSELVES IN THE POSITION TO HAVE THIS OPTION. They have done so well that they can afford to sit players. That's exactly the same as being able to rest "injured" players in the final week or two of the season because you won enough games to not have to worry about it.



This is a business, and specifically an entertainment business. BUT...the entertainment value comes from the drama of perceived legit competition with unknown outcomes. This is not a musical or play or rock show where the artists must perform. The entertainment of sports is seeing who will WIN OR LOSE. That's the value. So the Spurs aren't obligated to play anyone that anyone wants to see, as long as they win the game. And by the way, the Miami fans got to see a very entertaining, competitive game. So where is their complaint on money?

Will Stern apologize to the Spurs and give them an honorary title if Duncan gets hurt in a couple of weeks? Will Stern give them that title if they go 6-14 with mental fatigue?

No. Stern has said to Pop "You must try to win the title". It's on Pop and the Spurs to determine the best way to do that, and if they fail to do that then no one suffers more than they do. It's their ticket sales and promotional benefits on the line, not Stern's. For Stern there will always be a title winning team even if the Spurs blow it.



One other thing. Much of this is a by-product of the newish tiered pricing approach. But this approach always runs the risk of not panning out. What if Kobe gets hurt and you paid more for the Lakers game? What if I actually did scalp into row 3 vs the Heat back in the Shaq era, only to have him get hurt early in the week and not play in that game. Did the scalper give me my money back? Did Stern fine the Heat for "ripping me off"?

Damn it, I paid a lot of money with total disregard to the possible risk that the entertainment might not pan out exactly as planned, so put Shaq on crutches and run his a** out there.




PS - how long before Stern fines teams for knocking elite teams out of the playoffs. You know, because it's a business and sponsors want 7 game series between Miami, NYK, LAL and OKC.

Johanvil
11-30-2012, 06:18 AM
Imo Pop, and for every Pop in this case, should only answer to the Spurs' owner(if he has any problems with that and i seriously doubt it) and nobody else.He shouldn't give a flying **** if Stern *****es about it or TNT or ESPN etc. since he hasn't violated any rules.He is responsible for the playing side of the organization and will do as he wishes.I get Stern's position but at the end of the day it is what it is.Pop has done nothing illegal and any punishment will be ludicrous.

Heisenberg
11-30-2012, 06:22 AM
If this is the **** Stern's going to pull in his last year I feel bad for Adam Silver. Stern's done a ton for the NBA, but if he still can't check his ego it's past time for him to go.

Naptown_Seth
11-30-2012, 06:24 AM
I thought of another good fine. See when I go to a Pacer game I want to see Gerald Green dunk and Lance break someone's ankles. So it's time to fine Vogel into the poorhouse for not calling nothing but Green alley-oop and Lance 1 on 1 plays. F*** winning, this is what I paid to see. Frank needs to think about the ratings that dunk highlight will bring.

Also I really think it's funny when Crawford T's guys up and does his funny dance, so Stern should inject his control on that too and fine Crawford and both teams if they don't generate at least 10 technical with at least 4 resulting in a hilarious Crawford moment.


It's not about the sport, it's about entertainment and ratings. And apparently there's only one way to do that, and that's to keep the NBA's most watched team on the court.*



*it's come to my understanding that the Spurs do not, in fact, draw the highest ratings. So Stern needs to FINE HIMSELF for even putting the Spurs on national TV period. What the F is Stern thinking? The sponsors don't want to see that s***, they want 82 games of Boston vs Miami vs Knicks. He should also fine himself for letting the Pacers exist.

Johanvil
11-30-2012, 06:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hgAwKj37c

DaveP63
11-30-2012, 07:08 AM
Consistency. As long as they apply the same standard after the Heat wrap up the East and decide to rest Braun-Braun, DWade, Allen and Bosch.

King Tuts Tomb
11-30-2012, 07:19 AM
It's not about the sport, it's about entertainment and ratings.

It's about both. If Pop wants to only think about winning basketball games I'm sure there's a high school out there that will hire him. If you want to work in the NBA where they televise games and you make millions of dollars a year to coach, then you have to understand the system that allows you to make those millions.

Kstat
11-30-2012, 07:53 AM
Consistency. As long as they apply the same standard after the Heat wrap up the East and decide to rest Braun-Braun, DWade, Allen and Bosch.

Except one is expected at the end of the season and the other isn't. That wouldn't be consistent.

rm1369
11-30-2012, 08:19 AM
Stern just needs to send the coaches scripts for all nationally televised games so there is no confusion on who actually gets to make coaching decisions when a sponsor is involved. When Kia wants to make sure they advertise at the 2 minute mark of a close game with both teams starters on the floor Stern has to clearly communicate that to the coaches so they don't do something stupid like play a bench player that may be hot. Who the hell would want to see that? Unknown guys playing their asses off? What they hell does Pop think the NBA is - a sport? He'll no, it's sports entertainment. You never saw the macho man randy savage take a day off!

Phree Refill
11-30-2012, 08:24 AM
It isn't his place to take his ball and go home.

If Pop wanted to play his starters 5 minutes and yank them, that's fine. But are you telling me they're so tired 4 weeks into the season that they couldn't make the plane trip and give a token appearance? That's weak.

Everyone knew an hour before the game that the spurs sent their best guys home. I imagine a big chunk of TNT's audience never bothered to tune in because of that. That decision cost TNT ratings, and no doubt pissed off advertisers.

The NBA makes close to a billion dollars a year on TV revenue. This is a big deal.

I actually had no intention of watching this game because its hard for me to care about any other game the Pacers aren't playing in, even if it is a marquee matchup between the Spurs and Heat. But once I found out Pop sent his big guns home I was enthralled by the game. In fact, this game was the most entertaining and emotionally invested I had been in a game all year. I wanted SA to win soooooo bad. One more defensive stop and they could have done it.

But my point is, I wouldn't automatically assume Pop's decision hurt ratings. I'm sure there were others like me that tuned in only because of his decision.

Kstat
11-30-2012, 08:25 AM
There are plenty of unknown guys playing their asses off in the nbdl. Maybe you should go watch that if you find it so exciting?

Phree Refill
11-30-2012, 08:27 AM
NBDL players don't get to play Lebron, Wade, and Bosh every game now do they?

Kstat
11-30-2012, 08:28 AM
NBDL players don't get to play Lebron, Wade, and Bosh every game now do they?

I wasn't responding to you.

But, to answer, yes. It's called preseason.

Phree Refill
11-30-2012, 08:38 AM
Preaseason doesn't impact regular season standings. Its virtually meaningless.

LG33
11-30-2012, 08:44 AM
San Antonio should just say they were negotiating a trade with Dallas and kept their players out of the game as a precaution. You know Cuban would be good for it.

1984
11-30-2012, 08:50 AM
What?

rm1369
11-30-2012, 08:58 AM
I probably would if televised. Of course I prefer sports to sports entertainment (WWE). The NFL wasn't happy about teams resting, but instead of threatening and sanctioning teams they handled it through scheduling. Of course it's a much better run league so i guess i shouldnt expect Stern and the NBA to do something similar. A commissioner dictating to a coach when to play his players is BS for sport. I suppose it is perfectly acceptable for sports entertainment, though. I shouldn't be surprised that Stern would take this stance.

TinManJoshua
11-30-2012, 09:02 AM
The more I think about it, the more hilarious it is to argue that the NBA is losing some kind of exposure or something from this. It certainly created high drama, and isn't that what drives ESPN? Maybe they lose some revenue in the two hours last night, but you know First Take, Mike and Mike, Cowherd and the rest of them will be talking about this above everything, including the Falcons-Saints game.

The only way you get that exposure with everybody suiting up is if the Spurs win and the Heat are falling into some kind of skid. Otherwise this is just another one of 82 that isn't as important as the NFL game being played on the same night.

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 09:07 AM
The more I think about it, the more hilarious it is to argue that the NBA is losing some kind of exposure or something from this. It certainly created high drama, and isn't that what drives ESPN? Maybe they lose some revenue in the two hours last night, but you know First Take, Mike and Mike, Cowherd and the rest of them will be talking about this above everything, including the Falcons-Saints game.

The only way you get that exposure with everybody suiting up is if the Spurs win and the Heat are falling into some kind of skid. Otherwise this is just another one of 82 that isn't as important as the NFL game being played on the same night.


Just because you're interested in what "Mike and Mike" or Cowherd say doesn't mean that you watched the game. I watched the Falcons-Saints game last night because the NFL was offering the superior product, and I've listened to "Mike and Mike" some this morning.

Slick Pinkham
11-30-2012, 09:12 AM
I know it's popular to bash Stern, but I think he got this 100% right.

When a coach decides that a game is not important to win (and it's not a matter of resting players for a playoff spot that has already been decided), then the integrity of the contest is threatened.

You don't want a coach, player, or ref working for a casino.
You don't want a ref being best buds with players.
You don't want coaches or general mangers tanking games or seasons.

Pop says he decided to rest guys for this game many months ago when reviewing the schedule. How many people did he tell? Did they bet on the game?

Some of you are also IU fans. What if you showed up for the IU-UNC game the other night and Tom Crean announced that, while none of his players were injured, he was concerned about many of them getting just a little too tired. Thus he had decided that Cody, Jordan, Victor, and Will would all not dress for the UNC game. How would that go over? How should it go over?

duke dynamite
11-30-2012, 09:13 AM
Well, thanks to Tom Haberstroh's twitter (@tomhaberstroh), there is precedent. Pat Riley was fined $25,000 for not playing Magic Johnson and James Worthy in 1990. http://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/25/sports/sports-people-pro-basketball-resting-two-players-brings-lakers-a-fine.html

If they only fine Pop $25,000, then there's no chance he doesn't do this again. I guess Pop's lesson will be: don't do this on a nationally televised game.

Inflation makes that $42,000 in today's money. Still, $25k is a lot.

duke dynamite
11-30-2012, 09:15 AM
I know it's popular to bash Stern, but I think he got this 100% right.

When a coach decides that a game is not important to win (and it's not a matter of resting players for a playoff spot that has already been decided), then the integrity of the contest is threatened.

You don't want a coach, player, or ref working for a casino.
You don't want a ref being best buds with players.
You don't want coaches or general mangers tanking games or seasons.

Pop says he decided to rest guys for this game many months ago when reviewing the schedule. How many people did he tell? Did they bet on the game?

Some of you are also IU fans. What if you showed up for the IU-UNC game the other night and Tom Crean announced that, while none of his players were injured, he was concerned about many of them getting just a little too tired. Thus he had decided that Cody, Jordan, Victor, and Will would all not dress for the UNC game. How would that go over? How should it go over?
Yeah, but Pop also believes he has a team that will win without those guys. He's not an idiot. I bet if you asked him about his chances to win without Duncan, Gionobli and Parker, he'd be very confident in his response.

So I'm fairly certain he didn't mark this game as a "tank" game or an off night.

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 09:37 AM
Yeah, but Pop also believes he has a team that will win without those guys. He's not an idiot. I bet if you asked him about his chances to win without Duncan, Gionobli and Parker, he'd be very confident in his response.

So I'm fairly certain he didn't mark this game as a "tank" game or an off night.


You're not trying very hard to win if you sit Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. Sure you "can" win, but you're not going to beat many top teams (or bottom feeders for that matter) without those guys.

Pop threw the game and they essentially rubbed it in everyone's face when they made a point to say that they flew those guys back to SA on a Southwest flight. You can't get away with something so blatant when the league is going up against an NFL game.

duke dynamite
11-30-2012, 09:42 AM
You're not trying very hard to win if you sit Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. Sure you "can" win, but you're not going to beat many top teams (or bottom feeders for that matter) without those guys.

Pop threw the game and they essentially rubbed it in everyone's face when they made a point to say that they flew those guys back to SA on a Southwest flight. You can't get away with something so blatant when the league is going up against an NFL game.

The NBA even trying to go up against an NFL game is pointless. They should've known that from the start.

And like I said, Pops isn't the kind of coach to just throw away a game like that. He's always had good teams.

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 09:49 AM
The NBA even trying to go up against an NFL game is pointless. They should've known that from the start.

And like I said, Pops isn't the kind of coach to just throw away a game like that. He's always had good teams.

I'm sure the NBA is well aware that they aren't going to win Thursday Nights against the NFL. However, they still want all of the possible viewers they can get. And having a team like SA send all their stars home means it's less likely that people will watch.

Sure Pop is a good coach and wants the most out of his teams. And he has done nothing but win since he has been their coach. But as far as this game is concerned, he wasn't trying his hardest to win. The team is infinitely less talented without those guys. You're not putting forward your best effort if you sit the core of your championship teams.

duke dynamite
11-30-2012, 10:04 AM
I'm sure the NBA is well aware that they aren't going to win Thursday Nights against the NFL. However, they still want all of the possible viewers they can get. And having a team like SA send all their stars home means it's less likely that people will watch.

Sure Pop is a good coach and wants the most out of his teams. And he has done nothing but win since he has been their coach. But as far as this game is concerned, he wasn't trying his hardest to win. The team is infinitely less talented without those guys. You're not putting forward your best effort if you sit the core of your championship teams.

What you're forgetting is that the Heat played SA. If people are going to watch, it's to watch them.

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 10:09 AM
What you're forgetting is that the Heat played SA. If people are going to watch, it's to watch them.


I think there are plenty of people like myself who want to see a competitive game when they tune in. It certainly turned out to be competitive, but I want to see a competition between elite teams at full strength. I thus had no interest in watching last night. I was watching Falcons-Saints.

duke dynamite
11-30-2012, 10:12 AM
I think there are plenty of people like myself who want to see a competitive game when they tune in. It certainly turned out to be competitive, but I want to see a competition between elite teams at full strength. I thus had no interest in watching last night. I was watching Falcons-Saints.

For the pro basketball buff like you and many others on this site. But to the casual, bandwagon fan they want to see the Heat win. Win Win Win.

Eleazar
11-30-2012, 10:21 AM
I know it's popular to bash Stern, but I think he got this 100% right.

When a coach decides that a game is not important to win (and it's not a matter of resting players for a playoff spot that has already been decided), then the integrity of the contest is threatened.

You don't want a coach, player, or ref working for a casino.
You don't want a ref being best buds with players.
You don't want coaches or general mangers tanking games or seasons.

Pop says he decided to rest guys for this game many months ago when reviewing the schedule. How many people did he tell? Did they bet on the game?

Some of you are also IU fans. What if you showed up for the IU-UNC game the other night and Tom Crean announced that, while none of his players were injured, he was concerned about many of them getting just a little too tired. Thus he had decided that Cody, Jordan, Victor, and Will would all not dress for the UNC game. How would that go over? How should it go over?

That wouldn't happen because the scheduling of college basketball is a lot more forgiving to the players than NBA basketball. You are right with your premise, but Stern is wrong with his solution. The solution isn't fining coaches into submission, but scheduling so teams aren't playing 4 games in 5 nights.

Unclebuck
11-30-2012, 10:39 AM
Very few if any coaches could do this type of thing and still have the respect of the players the next day. Pop is the only one right now.

So I don't think this will turn into a trend (coaches resting players in the middle of the season against top teams)

rm1369
11-30-2012, 10:48 AM
I'm sure the NBA is well aware that they aren't going to win Thursday Nights against the NFL. However, they still want all of the possible viewers they can get. And having a team like SA send all their stars home means it's less likely that people will watch.

Sure Pop is a good coach and wants the most out of his teams. And he has done nothing but win since he has been their coach. But as far as this game is concerned, he wasn't trying his hardest to win. The team is infinitely less talented without those guys. You're not putting forward your best effort if you sit the core of your championship teams.

Why do NBA benches shorten in the playoffs? Apparently teams are taking into account how long the NBA season is and trying not to run their best players into the ground before the playoffs. Does that mean they aren't trying their hardest to win in November? Where do you draw the line? If Duncan plays 10 mins less than his average because Pop wants him to get some rest is that a problem? If a guy is a little sore, but would play if it was game 7 of the NBA finals, should he play in November? If he sits, does that mean you are not trying your best to win? It's the coach's job to decide who plays how much and when. If management, players, fans, or anybody else is telling a coach when to play a player it is a problem. Especially when it's the commissioner and the reason is sponsors.

threein73
11-30-2012, 10:52 AM
I wonder if Stern would have even noticed it they were playing the Pacers...

duke dynamite
11-30-2012, 11:19 AM
That wouldn't happen because the scheduling of college basketball is a lot more forgiving to the players than NBA basketball. You are right with your premise, but Stern is wrong with his solution. The solution isn't fining coaches into submission, but scheduling so teams aren't playing 4 games in 5 nights.

http://t.qkme.me/35djwo.jpg

Trophy
11-30-2012, 11:43 AM
Sitting your best players against the Heat would be like a team sitting its best defensive players against the New England Patriots.

A big head scratcher for sure on the Spurs behalf for doing this so early in the season, but I wouldn't fine them just because the game was nationally televised. It was Pop's decision to do it. Didn't seem very smart, but then again, he is the coach.

I would assume the league would've at least given them a talking to if they did this during the week.

This can certainly go either way.

dohman
11-30-2012, 11:47 AM
There is only one person that should care about this and its the spurs owner. I think POP saw it as a scheduled loss so why not let your guys refresh and come back stronger. Their team is not young and this may buy them a few more wins. Everything has to be looked at in the big picture and if Pops did it then there is a reason.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 11:47 AM
(and it's not a matter of resting players for a playoff spot that has already been decided)

Actually, he DID rest his players for a better playoff spot. The game against Memphis on Saturday will impact the playoff seed of the Spurs as the Griz are in the same division with them thus making this game one of the most important games of the season.

The game against Miami? It just isn't as important for playoff positioning.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 11:50 AM
But to the casual, bandwagon fan they want to see the Heat win. Win Win Win.

And that's exactly what the schedule making ensured ;)

ChicagoJ
11-30-2012, 11:54 AM
Late to this conversation, but Kareem and the other big stars used to have "80 game contracts" where the players could pick a game or two to rest. Can't tell you how many times I went to MSA to the see the Lakers as a kid and Kareem was nowhere to be found but was healthy enough to play the games before and after.

This decision by the Spurs doesn't bother me at all, from a competitive perspective. But I'm glad all those guys played last week when I went to the game because its been years since I've been able to see get to a Pacers-Spurs game in person and I enjoyed watching them play. (Didn't enjoy the outcome, of course.) Would have been really bummed as a paying customer if those guys were given "that" night off.

BillS
11-30-2012, 12:05 PM
I think you should never interfere with a coach's decision on who to play or not to play and what to do with his players.

You think there's an unsavory reason for benching those guys (throwing a game to win bets)? Investigate the crap out of it. Find a smoking gun.

But fining a coach for sending players home? Yeah, I want to see the league rule it violates and the line drawn by that rule.

As far as the fans somehow not getting what they paid for - you know, it's a sport, not a TV series. The purpose of the game is the game, not the entertainment or star moments or highlights on ESPN. This is the time to draw the line and say the whole focus on stars has limits - otherwise you end up with certain players OFFICIALLY being granted more fouls so they don't foul out, or requirements for teams to substitute a bench player if the starter is doing too good a job defending the Superstar, or other patently ridiculous things that seem less ridiculous when you start by telling a coach he MUST play certain players.

LetsTalkPacers84
11-30-2012, 12:06 PM
I wonder if Stern would have even noticed it they were playing the Pacers...

That would imply we were on national television to begin with, and that we had 3 superstars to sit.

rock747
11-30-2012, 12:15 PM
Typical NBA, inconsistent with it's penalties and punishments... you can't punish the Spurs now if you never have before...

aamcguy
11-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Typical NBA, inconsistent with it's penalties and punishments... you can't punish the Spurs now if you never have before...

Just because they never have before doesn't mean they can't start doing it every time now and after.

Slick Pinkham
11-30-2012, 12:39 PM
Late to this conversation, but Kareem and the other big stars used to have "80 game contracts" where the players could pick a game or two to rest.

It's not resting a star player or two that's the issue. It's resting arguably your four best players all at once, and none of them because of injury. I doubt if Popovich would have head a peep if he had rested Duncan and Ginobili last night, but Parker and Green the game before (in an easy win over Orlando), for example.

To not stagger the off-days certainly lends an element of "well, that's a loss anyway" to the decision. I don't think it's a huge deal though. I hope Pop isn't suspended but a fine should at least make the message clear.

As to the precedent for discipline, I am sure that Stern has in the past told teams not to tank games or intentionally run out a sub-optimal lineup. He can look the other way on the game before the all-star break or the last games of the season, but this was something he couldn't ignore.

31andonly
11-30-2012, 12:41 PM
Pops did the right thing. It's not the league's job to tell the teams who to play and who to sit. This is getting ridiculous.

Since86
11-30-2012, 12:42 PM
As to the precedent for discipline, I am sure that Stern has in the past told teams not to tank games or intentionally run out a sub-optimal lineup. He can look the other way on the game before the all-star break or the last games of the season, but this was something he couldn't ignore.

There is no punishment for it, so it can be ignored.

There is no punishment, so the league has admitted that the Spurs can do it if they want.

aamcguy
11-30-2012, 12:51 PM
There is no punishment for it, so it can be ignored.

There is no punishment, so the league has admitted that the Spurs can do it if they want.

The league also has the power to review any action on a case-by-case basis as well, so the Spurs have to know that if they do something like decide not to play their 4 best players that it will be reviewed.

diamonddave00
11-30-2012, 12:55 PM
The way Stern has punished teams he didn't like from tanking is by fixing the draft so they don't get the 1st overall picks.

He awards the 1st overall to teams he feels need it to increase fan interest. Cleveland after losing James , Ewing to Knicks, Hornets and Wizard after new ownership - just saying. Can't tell me those were cases of coincedence.

Since86
11-30-2012, 12:56 PM
I doubt it. If the league says there is nothing they can do this time around, I don't think they're going to suddenly change their mind and then fine/suspend later on.

The fact that the league didn't do anything, and won't do anything, gives me a pretty clear indication that the Spurs can do it.

EDIT: I'll just use Silver's own words here.

The strategic resting of particular players on particular nights is within the discretion of the teams.

Translation: We don't like it, but there's nothing we can do about it.

Kstat
11-30-2012, 12:57 PM
The way Stern has punished teams he didn't like from tanking is by fixing the draft so they don't get the 1st overall picks.

He awards the 1st overall to teams he feels need it to increase fan interest. Cleveland after losing James , Ewing to Knicks, Hornets and Wizard after new ownership - just saying. Can't tell me those were cases of coincedence.

Any idiot with 5 minutes to spare can come up with a conspiracy theory no matter who wins te lottery. We played this game last summer.

Speed
11-30-2012, 12:59 PM
If Stern has issue with it, he should handle it in house. He just looks stupid doing it this way. All Pop has to say is that it was a medical/health decision, which it pretty much was.

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 01:03 PM
The way Stern has punished teams he didn't like from tanking is by fixing the draft so they don't get the 1st overall picks.

He awards the 1st overall to teams he feels need it to increase fan interest. Cleveland after losing James , Ewing to Knicks, Hornets and Wizard after new ownership - just saying. Can't tell me those were cases of coincedence.

Cherry picking to the max. Why did he not throw the Knicks a single bone in the 2000's when they were the joke of the league? Why did Boston strike out on the Duncan and Oden/Durant sweepstakes when they had some of the best odds? By 2007, Boston had been a joke for about 15 years. You would think the league would have thrown its most successful franchise a bone if they were in the business of fixing things.

Why did Lebron go to boring Cleveland when both Chicago and New York were in play?

aamcguy
11-30-2012, 01:06 PM
I doubt it. If the league says there is nothing they can do this time around, I don't think they're going to suddenly change their mind and then fine/suspend later on.

The fact that the league didn't do anything, and won't do anything, gives me a pretty clear indication that the Spurs can do it.

EDIT: I'll just use Silver's own words here.


Translation: We don't like it, but there's nothing we can do about it.

Except Stern said publicly right before tip off last night that they would be doing something to punish them. And Stern outranks everybody last I remembered.


"I apologize to all NBA fans," Stern said. "This was an unacceptable decision by the San Antonio Spurs and substantial sanctions will be forthcoming."
Stern's statement was released roughly the same time as tip-off in Miami for a nationally televised game.

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/11/29/spurs-stars-out-heat.ap/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpts

rock747
11-30-2012, 01:08 PM
Just because they never have before doesn't mean they can't start doing it every time now and after.

Fine, implement a rule and enforce it consistently after today- But how can the Spurs be penalized for something they have done multiple times before without penalization? Stern is butthurt because his superstar driven product took a hit on national television...

Since86
11-30-2012, 01:15 PM
Except Stern said publicly right before tip off last night that they would be doing something to punish them. And Stern outranks everybody last I remembered.



http://www.nba.com/2012/news/11/29/spurs-stars-out-heat.ap/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpts

I went back to the article posted, to check the time stamps. Turns out the article quoted and linked on page two is from last season, 4/17/12.

BUT I have a hard time believing that the fine will stick, when your office is on record of saying it's the discretion of the team. There's an appeals process for fines, so we'll see.

Stryder
11-30-2012, 01:18 PM
I have absolutely no issues with what the Spurs did. None. And I have absolutely no issues with David Stern imposing penalties on the Spurs for what the Spurs did.

Slick Pinkham
11-30-2012, 01:23 PM
you can't punish the Spurs now if you never have before...

The Los Angeles Lakers were known to have been fined in the later stages of the 1984-85 and 1989-90 seasons for resting multiple stars before the playoffs.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8692304/report-san-antonio-spurs-sit-4-top-5-scorers-vs-miami-heat

It's strange that no rest days were scheduled for cupcake games. In their previous three games the Spurs beat the Toronto Raptors, Washington Wizards and Orlando Magic, 3 teams with a combined record of 9-34, by a collective 52 points.

Coopdog23
11-30-2012, 01:36 PM
Why didn't he do that when they played the Pacers last week. Parker had 34, Duncan had 22

rm1369
11-30-2012, 01:45 PM
"We would like to apologize to our fans, partners, and sponsors affected by the San Antonio Spurs decision to rest many of their players in a nationally televised game against the Miami Heat. We strongly discourage teams from acting in this manner. However, personnel decisions, including playing time, are strictly a team decision. The ultimate goal of every NBA team is to win an NBA championship. Coach Popvich made a decision that he believes will help his team reach that goal. This is a very rare occurance for our league. Regardless, we will look into the scheduling issues that conspired to make the coach feel this was the correct decision. If there are changes that make sense we will implement them. We strive to provide you a quality product showcasing the talents of the best athletes in the world. And we will continue to look for ways to improve. Thank you." This is along the lines of what Stern should have said. Instead he acts in a way that reinforces the belief that he is the "puppet master" and that the NBA is sometimes a little more "entertainment" and less "sport" than it should be.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 01:54 PM
Why didn't he do that when they played the Pacers last week. Parker had 34, Duncan had 22

Because he clearly did it to raise the middle finger on Stern for the scheduling.

aamcguy
11-30-2012, 01:55 PM
"We would like to apologize to our fans, partners, and sponsors affected by the San Antonio Spurs decision to rest many of their players in a nationally televised game against the Miami Heat. We strongly discourage teams from acting in this manner. However, personnel decisions, including playing time, are strictly a team decision. The ultimate goal of every NBA team is to win an NBA championship. Coach Popvich made a decision that he believes will help his team reach that goal. This is a very rare occurance for our league. Regardless, we will look into the scheduling issues that conspired to make the coach feel this was the correct decision. If there are changes that make sense we will implement them. We strive to provide you a quality product showcasing the talents of the best athletes in the world. And we will continue to look for ways to improve. Thank you." This is along the lines of what Stern should have said. Instead he acts in a way that reinforces the belief that he is the "puppet master" and that the NBA is sometimes a little more "entertainment" and less "sport" than it should be.

David Stern isn't affiliated with any team. It's not his job to ensure that teams remain productive and competitive year round. He is employed by the NBA, of which all of the teams are voluntarily a part of. The league's job is to take the players and teams provided and go make money with them, ensuring that the teams can continue to exist in a medium that is favorable to them. By choosing to be a part of the NBA they also choose to abide by its policies. And its number 1 policy is to put the best product possible out there so fans continue to pay to attend games and purchase merchandise. Which all teams want anyway. Stern is just doing his job.

Every team has scheduling concerns at some point in the year, but only Popovich makes such a big deal about it. He's being a "passive diva," if you will.

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 02:00 PM
Every team has scheduling concerns at some point in the year, but only Popovich makes such a big deal about it. He's being a "passive diva," if you will.


Exactly. The Spurs are the ones who told everyone that they sent the players back home on a Southwest flight.

Trader Joe
11-30-2012, 02:03 PM
The average fan doesn't tune into the Spurs vs. Heat game to watch Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili anyway, they tune in to watch Wade, Lebron, and Bosh, that is why this is silly to begin with.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 02:04 PM
Exactly. The Spurs are the ones who told everyone that they sent the players back home on a Southwest flight.

It's better than letting his players become a mockery in national TV.

TinManJoshua
11-30-2012, 02:04 PM
Stern's gonna come out, waving around a crumpled piece of paper. Growling about justice and fines, Stern finally bellows,"Pop! If you don't come out here and kiss my ***, YOU'RE FIRRRRRRED!"

Pop's music hits he comes storming down the aisle in fury, steps into the ring. Eye to eye, he agrees to kiss Stern's ***.

Stern, giddy for having won and compressed his employee, turns around and exposes his rear end. Pop starts moving reluctantly towards Stern with a disgusted look on his face.

Then, just prior to lips making contact, he rises up, spins David around, KICK WHAM STUNNER!!!!

Pop's music hits, crowd goes wild as he exits the arena.

Since86
11-30-2012, 02:07 PM
So when is the NBA going to give money back to Celtic season ticket holders, or season ticket holders of the teams that Boston is getting ready to play?

If fans/sponsors are entitled to see superstars, then the NBA suspending a superstar like Rondo is cheating them.

Fans/sponsors aren't entitled X player. They're entitled to an NBA game, which they got.

rock747
11-30-2012, 02:07 PM
The Los Angeles Lakers were known to have been fined in the later stages of the 1984-85 and 1989-90 seasons for resting multiple stars before the playoffs.http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8692304/report-san-antonio-spurs-sit-4-top-5-scorers-vs-miami-heat

It's strange that no rest days were scheduled for cupcake games. In their previous three games the Spurs beat the Toronto Raptors, Washington Wizards and Orlando Magic, 3 teams with a combined record of 9-34, by a collective 52 points.

Doesn't make me think that this penalty has been forced consistently... it's not like this is the first time the Spurs have done this.

Slick Pinkham
11-30-2012, 02:26 PM
Doesn't make me think that this penalty has been forced consistently... it's not like this is the first time the Spurs have done this.

Maybe when they did it before they were warned not to do it again?

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 02:31 PM
The average fan doesn't tune into the Spurs vs. Heat game to watch Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili anyway, they tune in to watch Wade, Lebron, and Bosh, that is why this is silly to begin with.

So then why do most of the Heat's national TV games tend to be against teams like the Celtics, Lakers, Spurs, Knicks, Bulls, etc? I don't see many TNT Heat games against the Wizards, Raptors, Hornets, or Kings. People watch the Heat, yes, but they also want to see them play great teams.

Nuntius
11-30-2012, 02:36 PM
So then why do most of the Heat's national TV games tend to be against teams like the Celtics, Lakers, Spurs, Knicks, Bulls, etc? I don't see many TNT Heat games against the Wizards, Raptors, Hornets, or Kings. People watch the Heat, yes, but they also want to see them play great teams.

Because the media want to build storylines around the Heat either dominating their elite opposition or not being able to go over the hump, resulting in more stories about them. The Heat sell. Storylines about them involving other elite teams sell even more.

rock747
11-30-2012, 02:36 PM
Maybe when they did it before they were warned not to do it again?

Yeah, maybe... it doesn't seem as though this is the case...

CableKC
11-30-2012, 02:43 PM
You know what the sad thing is? Despite not having the Geriatric 3 in Miami.....Pop's System and Bench Players worked well enough to keep the game CLOSE AND COMPETITIVE all the way til the end when LeDecision was able to drag the Heat to a win in the closing minutes of the game.

If people tuned out because the Geriatric 3 weren't playing....they missed an actually pretty good game that went all the way down to the wire.

BillS
11-30-2012, 02:57 PM
I just don't buy that the league owes anyone an apology for who does or does not play. The thought that fans ARE owed an apology if certain players aren't on the floor is EXACTLY what threatens to turn the league into even more of a WWE entertainment-over-competition debacle.

rock747
11-30-2012, 03:49 PM
I just don't buy that the league owes anyone an apology for who does or does not play. The thought that fans ARE owed an apology if certain players aren't on the floor is EXACTLY what threatens to turn the league into even more of a WWE entertainment-over-competition debacle.

Yep. The NBA doesn't run individual teams.... but it's attempting to!

Hicks
11-30-2012, 03:51 PM
I'm still mulling this over, but for now I think Pop should be allowed to do this, Stern has every right to be pissed about the circumstances due to the money and fan/sponsor/TV interests, and that ultimately David needs to change the rules or the schedule in the future to prevent this from happening again rather than come up with some weak fine for San Antonio or Pop in this particular instance.

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 03:51 PM
I just don't buy that the league owes anyone an apology for who does or does not play. The thought that fans ARE owed an apology if certain players aren't on the floor is EXACTLY what threatens to turn the league into even more of a WWE entertainment-over-competition debacle.

I don't think that expecting healthy multi-millionaire athletes to play in a nationally televised late November game is too much to ask.

rock747
11-30-2012, 03:53 PM
I don't think that expecting healthy multi-millionaire athletes to play in a nationally televised late November game is too much to ask.

It's dissapointing for the fans, but should the NBA be able to force teams to play certain players?

naptownmenace
11-30-2012, 03:58 PM
I think the punishment should be a 1-game suspension for Pop, Duncan, Parker, Ginobilli, and Green for this Saturday's game against Memphis.

Since they've had such a busy schedule, they could probably use another game off to rest.

MyFavMartin
11-30-2012, 04:00 PM
Commissioner: Alanis Morrisette is on line one. Says she's sending you a script for a jagged little pill.

Seems hypocritial since teams at the end of the season get punished for sitting their best players and going into full tank mode and get rewarded by the NBA with be draft lottery odds.

Why not have equal chances for all non-lottery teams?

naptownmenace
11-30-2012, 04:01 PM
I just don't buy that the league owes anyone an apology for who does or does not play. The thought that fans ARE owed an apology if certain players aren't on the floor is EXACTLY what threatens to turn the league into even more of a WWE entertainment-over-competition debacle.

I don't get your point at all here. How does resting your players against the Miami Heat improve competitive balance?

MyFavMartin
11-30-2012, 04:02 PM
Yes but 4 games in 5 nights is excessive. Maybe the NBA should consider this when scheduling.

Maybe it'd also be an excuse to feature other teams than those that get all the TV exposure (LA, Miami, Boston, etc.)... there's a team in blue and yellow that I like...

Sollozzo
11-30-2012, 04:07 PM
I think the punishment should be a 1-game suspension for Pop, Duncan, Parker, Ginobilli, and Green for this Saturday's game against Memphis.

Since they've had such a busy schedule, they could probably use another game off to rest.


hahaha. That's exactly what the league should do. Stern should release a sarcastic (but 100% serious) press release saying they are suspended a game so that they can rest.

Since86
11-30-2012, 04:09 PM
@dalridgetnt

If the public cared so much about these stars, how come it never watched them in any of San Antonio's Finals appearances?

Since86
11-30-2012, 04:15 PM
David Stern stumbles again in his failed culture war against the SpursBy Adrian Wojnarowski

Before the emperor of the NBA leaves his Olympic Tower office, this is the holy war that those within the San Antonio Spurs' extended family expected David Stern to eventually wage on Gregg Popovich and his program's culture. The commissioner burped that terse, threatening statement promising "substantial sanctions" to the rogue state of his totalitarian nation on Thursday night. This has been a long time coming out of the commissioner's office.

And yet, once more, Stern's tossed a temper tantrum that left everyone around him embarrassed, humiliated and wondering why he insisted on staying until February of 2014. All these years, Stern and his underlings privately complained and moaned that no one wanted to watch the Spurs, that they destroyed his TV ratings, that they were uninteresting, unappealing and impossible to market to the masses.
And now, this act of condemnation for Popovich would be bathed in the ultimate of twisted irony: Without the Spurs' stars, Stern was selling that the NBA logo had been desecrated, that a public trust had been betrayed.

Suddenly, Stern had to issue an apology to NBA fans because Popovich sent his stars home to San Antonio at the end of a long road trip. No one in Miami bought a ticket to watch Tim Duncan and Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, because those players are relevant to no one in Miami. Mostly, they come to watch LeBron and D-Wade, or they don't come at all. Few people watch the Spurs on national television – unless they're playing the Heat or the Los Angeles Lakers – and that's because the Spurs never deliver the dysfunction and self-destructive bents that fuel the sport's storylines.

Stern once declared that his fantasy NBA Finals would be the Lakers vs. the Lakers, and no one laughed in San Antonio because they understood Stern was stone-cold serious. And well, if there was a little "Bleep You" out of Popovich toward Stern after shipping his players back to San Antonio after five games in seven nights, it was beyond understandable.

Back in the Spurs' glory days, it was one disrespectful act after another out of Stern.

The Spurs don't forget how the NBA's vice president of operations, Stu Jackson, directly called Bruce Bowen to warn him about how he was playing defense and threaten him with future punishments. Jackson didn't show the respect of reaching out to Spurs officials before communicating with Bowen, but bypassed them and got into the heads of one of their most important players. Phil Jackson himself couldn't have orchestrated it better on behalf of the Lakers' Western Conference championship chances.

They don't forget how one of Stern's top public-relations officials went out of her way to try to dissuade an NBA team owner from hiring a well-regarded Spurs executive as general manager. And they don't forget that once that executive got the job, she went out of her way to try to undermine his operation.

They don't forget how Stern wanted to infiltrate the inner sanctum of the Spurs with TV cameras and microphones, with the kind of phony, superficial behind-the-scenes access that went against how the franchise conducted its basketball business and kept its edge. The Spurs have been a model of efficiency and innovation that has been an immense resource for the operations of small- and big-market franchises, but the commissioner can't leverage that on TNT with Ernie, Kenny and Charles.

They don't forget how Stern stood by as USA Basketball director Jerry Colangelo publicly embarrassed Popovich. Colangelo went out of his way to insist his close friend Mike Krzyzewski was chosen as Olympic coach because, in part: "I think [Popovich] had a bad taste in his mouth regarding his most recent experiences with USA Basketball, some bitterness, and that came out in my conversation with him. He seemed burned out by it. … He just wasn't as enthusiastic as Mike."

There's a double-standard to how this league operates under Stern, and it won't change until Adam Silver takes over and makes it a priority to do so. When Yahoo! Sports uncovered a pattern of deliberate predraft rules violations that benefited the New York Knicks and penalized the rest of the teams, Stern did little. Brandon Rush blew out his knee in an illegal workout, Wilson Chandler was stashed for weeks in Atlanta so no one else could get access to him before the draft, and Stern fined that Cablevision empire essentially lunch money for a weekend shindig in the Hamptons with the Dolans.

Teams had talked about these violations for years and complained to Jackson's office. Brandon Rush said the NBA had never once contacted him before the Y! Sports' investigation. For two years, the charges went uninvestigated. Had the Spurs been caught doing this, there likely would've been a loss of draft picks, suspensions and millions in fines. And rightly so for the Knicks, Spurs, or anyone who tried to get away with those things. That's the double-standard that Stern runs in the NBA.


In that instance, here's a possible reason for the way the NBA never acted dutifully on its flagship franchise. The scout responsible for running those workouts? Rodney Heard. How did Heard get into the NBA? Jackson, as general manager of the Vancouver Grizzlies, hired him. Rival teams were always suspicious Heard conducted those illicit workouts on the Grizzlies payroll, too. If Rush told me about blowing out his knee as a Kansas undergraduate with the Knicks conducting an illegal workout – and then hiding it – wouldn't he have also told league investigators the same had they pulled him into their Manhattan offices and demanded the truth?

Stern never apologized to the paying public about allowing his franchise with the most resources to get away for years with this behavior. He fined them $200,000, fined Heard $25,000, but never made an example out of them. The Knicks affected competitive balance, and it didn't matter that New York remained horrible. No one gets a lighter sentence for robbing a bank and dropping the money on the way to the getaway car.

Stern doesn't care about the realities of his league, just the appearances. To him, the appearance on Thursday night was that Popovich had tried to embarrass him on national television and that's why the commissioner tossed that tantrum. Apologize to the fans? In a league where the mere appearance of players on the floor doesn't guarantee preparation and effort, the Spurs never cheat the public. They're honest, in a way so few are honest. When too many others wear the uniform and yet still take the night off, the Spurs come to play – or they don't come at all.

In every way, Popovich let his players be the stars. He never self-promoted. He's never done endorsements. Stern wanted a players' league, and Popovich gave him the ultimate players' program. It was team, team, team. Only, Stern couldn't market it. He hated it. Four times they reached the NBA Finals, and Stern didn't like the TV ratings of those series.

For all of his so-called marketing genius, Stern could never sell the global appeal of Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker. They brought the NBA to the corners of the world, glamorized basketball over soccer, and somehow it was Popovich's failure that Stern couldn't market this to people. The NBA failed the Spurs, far more than the Spurs ever failed the NBA. After his fourth championship, I asked Popovich why he never cashed in on all the trappings that come to the immortal coaches.

"Listen," Popovich told me, "it's a player's league. I think it's very important for a coach to make sure that his players believe 100 percent – and not with lip service – that it's about them. Coaches are going to do everything they can to create that environment for them. It's not about creating an environment for us. It's a privilege to be able to coach these guys. We make enough money."


When Pat Riley scored the greatest free-agent coup in NBA history, no one called to congratulate him – except Popovich. This was the kind of power play that should've served to put him out of the championship business in San Antonio, but, still, Popovich admired it. He respected that Riles played to his strengths, Popovich played to his own, and together they would compete for the title. Popovich never tells people that his way would work for them, but it works for him and the Spurs.

Against LeBron James and Dwyane Wade, against Chris Bosh and Ray Allen, what the Spurs did in a 105-100 wasn't an embarrassment to the NBA, but a celebration of it. This is how a franchise ought to be run, how winning is foremost importance. Popovich empowered his bench to hang with the defending champion Heat, and gave his group even greater confidence and belief for when they're called upon again. What happened was one of the most compelling Spurs' regular-season games, and easily the most mesmerizing game of this season.
This was a testament to the Spurs' great scouting and player development, the great coaching and discipline. This was the ultimate testament to the Spurs' way, and it didn't repulse the paying public – it inspired them.

When David Stern issued that belligerent, foreboding statement before tipoff, it was clear he believed the Spurs would get blown out and make his case for him. He never imagined San Antonio would hold the lead into the final minute.

Stern could've waited until Friday, delivered his substantial sanctions – a naval blockade on the Riverwalk, a ban on Napa Valley imports for Popovich, whatever – but he couldn't help himself. He wanted to embarrass Popovich throughout that national TV game, and wouldn't you know it: Popovich embarrassed Stern because the Spurs coach has a complete understanding of his realm, his team, his players, in a way that Stern has lost touch with that with which he lords over.

The emperor of the NBA wasn't standing up for the fan on Thursday night, but settling an old score on his way out of office, on his way to a February 1, 2014, retirement date that suddenly seems so far away. Even within a league that would've never imagined the core of the Spurs dynasty could stay on top longer than the commissioner who wished them away, the expiration date on the emperor still feels so far away. Nevertheless, make no mistake: David Stern wanted these players gone all the way until Thursday night, all the way until they became convenient devices for his failed culture war on the San Antonio Spurs.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--david-stern-stumbles-again-in-his-failed-culture-war-against-the-spurs-194828970.html

BillS
11-30-2012, 04:18 PM
I don't get your point at all here. How does resting your players against the Miami Heat improve competitive balance?

How does second-guessing a coach's decision in favor of the fans getting to see certain stars on the floor improve anything other than ratings?

Maybe resting your players helps your team later in the season - it is about more than just the few games you play against the marquee teams still, isn't it?

Bottom line is that it is the coach's decision. If he screwed up a winnable game by sitting stars and it hurts him down the road, that's his mistake to pay for. Whether the fans deserve to see certain stars play has nothing to do with it.

rock747
11-30-2012, 04:23 PM
It's a problem with the NBA's system. Be it too many regular season games, or overbearing schedule. There is a reason Poppavich sat them. Maybe David Stern should consider that...

BillS
11-30-2012, 04:24 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--david-stern-stumbles-again-in-his-failed-culture-war-against-the-spurs-194828970.html

I'd thank this a bazillion times and thank Wojnarowski a million for writing it in the first place.

rock747
11-30-2012, 04:34 PM
I'd thank this a bazillion times and thank Wojnarowski a million for writing it in the first place.

Yeah, it's nice to have someone out there who writes honestly and journalistically.

rm1369
11-30-2012, 04:52 PM
I just don't buy that the league owes anyone an apology for who does or does not play. The thought that fans ARE owed an apology if certain players aren't on the floor is EXACTLY what threatens to turn the league into even more of a WWE entertainment-over-competition debacle.

I understand why Stern is concerned and believe its in the best interest of the league to discourage it. I just believe Stern choose a very poor way to handle - as he often does IMO. I would much prefer the league apologize, admit its not what it wants, that it can't and shouldn't be in the business of dictating playing time, and say it would try to address it through scheduling (as the NFL is doing). I think you are right, that they don't have to apologize, but IMO the league has a perception problem partly because it often tries to hide and lie about situations instead of being up front and honest that sometime things just aren't perfect. And that they are willing to try to make it better. IMO the NFL is way ahead of the NBA in that regard - although not always perfect. If I have to hear Stern tell me there is no star system in the NBA again........

naptownmenace
11-30-2012, 04:54 PM
How does second-guessing a coach's decision in favor of the fans getting to see certain stars on the floor improve anything other than ratings?

Maybe resting your players helps your team later in the season - it is about more than just the few games you play against the marquee teams still, isn't it?

Bottom line is that it is the coach's decision. If he screwed up a winnable game by sitting stars and it hurts him down the road, that's his mistake to pay for. Whether the fans deserve to see certain stars play has nothing to do with it.

Sitting out your players to work the schedule into your favor disrupts competitive balance. My argument has nothing to do with the fans or ratings. It's about what's right in my opinion. If Pop hadn't sent his players home during a road trip before the road trip ended, I wouldn't have cared. If he sat them for the game against the Magic in Orlando I wouldn't have cared. That would've actually helped competitive balance.

When the league creates a schedule, they take a look at the team's record the previous year. Teams that were really strong last year usually have more 4-games-in-5-nights scheduled. Teams like the Bobcats and Warriors have had a really favorable schedule to start the season. Sure the Spurs schedule has been rough and they've played a lot of games this month but every team in the league is going to have a stretch of games that is tough.

Another problem I have, although it didn't garauntee a win for the Heat, is that it gives a good team like the Heat an extra chance to win a game against lesser talent. That's not fair to the Pacers or the rest of the league. It's like if the Pacers had the opportunity to play the Wizards 5 times and the rest of the league only gets to play them 4 times.

McKeyFan
11-30-2012, 04:57 PM
The entire game I kept thinking of Pacers post brawl and was cheering for the undermanned Spurs. I kept waiting for Marcus Haislip, Britton Johnson and Tremaine Fowlkes to check in.
One of Rick Carlisle's finest hours. They actually did pretty well.

kent beckley
11-30-2012, 04:57 PM
I see in these posts that the overwhelming majority of people on this board are in favor of Pop's authority to sit these players. If this was a game on a wednesday night, on two regional cable stations, I would have an easier time agreeing. But this was 'THE' game of the week. Until ABC starts showing games on Sundays, the early TNT game is the most watched NBA game.

Ask yourself this question, What is David Stern's job? Not his title, we all know that. What is his responsibility? He works for the owners. His number one duty is to keep the NBA a sellable product, which makes it a profitable organization. This includes disciplining players to protect the image, and also making sure the product that is the NBA is desirable to advertisers and ticket buyers. When a person involved in the NBA spits on the product, by removing the most marketable thing in the NBA, its stars, in the most important showcase of the week, it is Stern's responsibility to inform that person that this is not acceptable. The NBA is not an amateur sport. It is a business. David Stern is trying to make that business as profitable as possible.

vnzla81
11-30-2012, 04:59 PM
I like the article an all but the Spurs should give a big thanks to Stern for suspending Amare and the rest of the Suns players on that famous series, if Sterns doesn't do that Phoenix wins that series and goes to the finals.

BillS
11-30-2012, 05:05 PM
Sitting out your players to work the schedule into your favor disrupts competitive balance. My argument has nothing to do with the fans or ratings. It's about what's right in my opinion. If Pop hadn't sent his players home during a road trip before the road trip ended, I wouldn't have cared. If he sat them for the game against the Magic in Orlando I wouldn't have cared.

When the league creates a schedule, they take a look at the team's record the previous year. Teams that were really strong last year usually have more 4-games-in-5-nights scheduled. Teams like the Bobcats and Warriors have had a really favorable schedule to start the season. Sure the Spurs schedule has been rough and they've played a lot of games this month but every team in the league is going to have a stretch of games that is tough.

Another problem I have, although it didn't garauntee a win for the Heat, is that it gives a good team like the Heat an extra chance to win a game against lesser talent. That's not fair to the Pacers or the rest of the league. It's like if the Pacers had the opportunity to play the Wizards 5 times and the rest of the league only gets to play them 4 times.

I really couldn't disagree more.

First, the number of long road trips or X-games-in-y-nights has nothing whatsoever to do with the previous record of the team. During our stretch of missing the playoffs we had at least one season where we were in the top 5 of teams with bad back-to-back situations and longest road trips. In at least one of the last 2 seasons Miami had one of the most FAVORABLE treatments as such.

Second, how the coach decides to deal with resting players in order to handle such situations is his choice. That is (and always has been) PART of how you compete. I have no problem with coaches sitting players for meaningless (to them) games at the end of the season, even when it can affect how other teams end up in the standings - the solution is to play well enough to have your destiny in your own hands, not to count on good teams beating your opponents.

Essentially, "fair" or "not fair" regarding how other teams play other teams should have nothing to do with your own decisions as a coach. You have to keep focused on your own plate, your own schedule, and your own situation. Same with players. Worrying about what other teams choose to do against their opponents leads to excuses. You want to be in the playoffs? Beat the teams you play.

Now, if a coach has a PATTERN of doing it throughout a season, it should be investigated to see if there are non-sports reasons for such decisions, but a single game?

Let the coach do his job. If there is anyone who should complain it should be the team members (for not being allowed to compete) or the ownership (if they think the coach isn't doing what he needs to do to maximize wins overall in the season). That's it.

Sandman21
11-30-2012, 05:11 PM
Absolutely. Anyone else think it was fishy how the Lakers got their one b2b2b done in the first three games last year?

BillS
11-30-2012, 05:11 PM
I see in these posts that the overwhelming majority of people on this board are in favor of Pop's authority to sit these players. If this was a game on a wednesday night, on two regional cable stations, I would have an easier time agreeing. But this was 'THE' game of the week. Until ABC starts showing games on Sundays, the early TNT game is the most watched NBA game.

Why should that change the rules?

Are we going to start saying that on the Thursday night TNT game players get 6 fouls plus one additional foul for every time they were voted into an all-star game? Are we going to start saying that the team with the most fan votes gets a 10 point head start? Are we going to pause a game every time the referees make a call and open the text voting lines so viewers can vote to overturn the call? Are we going to give a player extra free throws if he has a high selling jersey?

If your answer is "of course not", then why should which players are on the floor matter based on which televised (or non-televised) game it is?

It's a sporting event, and needs to be treated as such. The "risk" - like showing a Heat game is any kind of ratings risk whatsoever - is that players might not be on the floor OR might not perform up to the hype.

You want to "punish" the Spurs, don't pick them for the Thursday night national TV game next year. That's about the only "punishment" this deserves.

Major Cold
11-30-2012, 05:13 PM
I really can understand where both sides are on this one.

But ultimately there is nothing the league can do unless there is a pre-establish rule against resting your players. And Stern knows it.

rm1369
11-30-2012, 05:21 PM
I'd thank this a bazillion times and thank Wojnarowski a million for writing it in the first place.

Best NBA related article I've ever read.

naptownmenace
11-30-2012, 05:32 PM
I really couldn't disagree more.

That's because you're looking at it from Popovich's vantage point and I'm not. I'm looking at it from a commissioner and fan of the Pacers POV. As a commissioner, Stern has the right to say - "Don't try to work the schedule".

All-in-all, this really isn't a big help for the Spurs anyway. I doubt this will help the Spurs win the championship or even help them stay healthier or rested for the playoffs.



I also like Woj's article. He's my new favorite writer this season. Last year it was Sheridan but ever since the playoffs of last year and the offseason, Woj has really stepped his game up.

kent beckley
11-30-2012, 06:07 PM
Why should that change the rules?

It's a sporting event, and needs to be treated as such. The "risk" - like showing a Heat game is any kind of ratings risk whatsoever - is that players might not be on the floor OR might not perform up to the hype.

This is an extremely naive statement. Of course the NBA is a sporting event. But it is also, and more importantly from a financial standpoint, a 'show'. It is entertainment. The average fan, not you and me who are currently in a discussion on a small-market team web-forum, pays money to see the stars. They are who pay the bills. If they go away, you have hockey. You have a small niche sport that the general public doesn't give two craps about.

Why is 'The Office' in their final season? Why is nobody watching it? The show's star is no longer on the show. Therefore people stopped watching it.

kent beckley
11-30-2012, 06:08 PM
How could this have been avoided? The old three could have sat on Wednesday Night.

BillS
11-30-2012, 06:24 PM
This is an extremely naive statement. Of course the NBA is a sporting event. But it is also, and more importantly from a financial standpoint, a 'show'. It is entertainment. The average fan, not you and me who are currently in a discussion on a small-market team web-forum, pays money to see the stars. They are who pay the bills. If they go away, you have hockey. You have a small niche sport that the general public doesn't give two craps about.

Of course there has to be entertainment value of some kind. But the more that entertainment value diverges from your core product, the more you change from a sports match to a "sports entertainment show" like the WWE. When the entertainment decisions are placed above sports decisions, it isn't a sports match any more.

If it is to be a sport, then what is on the floor has got to be handled like a sport and not like a Vegas Show. Otherwise, when does it become acceptable to give even greater advantages to the stars the "fans" pay to see? Is there a line any more?

BillS
11-30-2012, 06:27 PM
How could this have been avoided? The old three could have sat on Wednesday Night.

Even if the coach thought having his stars on Wednesday night made more of a difference than on Thursday night? Or should every coach be required to call the League Office before every game and ask permission to sit players?

OlBlu
11-30-2012, 06:29 PM
An NBA coach should be allowed to decide what is in the best interest of his team. If that means resting players or sending them home to be ready for a division game, so be it.... They should be trying to win their division or make the playoffs....:cool:

kent beckley
11-30-2012, 06:38 PM
Even if the coach thought having his stars on Wednesday night made more of a difference than on Thursday night? Or should every coach be required to call the League Office before every game and ask permission to sit players?

You don't think Pop knows when he is on national TV?

I understand your point. My point is that Stern is in the position to make sure all teams are doing what is in the common interest of the league, not just the San Antonio Spurs. The league would have been better off if the Spurs starters played their normal minutes last night. I don't see how anyone could argue with that.

CableKC
11-30-2012, 06:53 PM
You don't think Pop knows when he is on national TV?

I understand your point. My point is that Stern is in the position to make sure all teams are doing what is in the common interest of the league, not just the San Antonio Spurs. The league would have been better off if the Spurs starters played their normal minutes last night. I don't see how anyone could argue with that.
Could you expand on why the League ( as a whole ) would have been better if the Spurs Starters played their normal minutes?

diamonddave00
11-30-2012, 07:13 PM
Well Stern stuck it to them $250,000 fine thats bull

CableKC
11-30-2012, 07:46 PM
Well Stern stuck it to them $250,000 fine thats bull
I don't get how can Owners be okay with this.

So, the rule of thumb is that you can't rest your Starters during a game on National TV. If a Coaches wants to rest their Starters.....then dress them....have them play for a minute and then rest them for 47 minutes :shrug: . Are Coaches allowed to do that without getting fined?

Also...is Pop fined $250k or are the Spurs Owners fined?

Pingu
11-30-2012, 07:50 PM
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/11/30/spurs-fined-announcement/index.html



San Antonio Spurs fined by league

Offiicial Release
Posted Nov 30, 2012 6:05 PM

The NBA announced Friday that the San Antonio Spurs organization has been fined $250,000 for its decision to send four players home prior to the Spurs' Nov. 29 game in Miami. The Spurs' actions were in violation of a league policy, reviewed with the NBA Board of Governors in April 2010, against resting players in a manner contrary to the best interests of the NBA.

NBA Commissioner David Stern stated: "The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team's only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans."


:shakehead

yoadknux
11-30-2012, 07:51 PM
$250,000 fine, WOW :-o

Mac_Daddy
11-30-2012, 07:56 PM
If Stern is going to fine the Spurs for doing a disservice to the league and the fans, then he should probably also fine the Bobcats and the Wizards for being terrible.

I hope the Spurs pay the fine in pennies and have it sent to Stern's office.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
11-30-2012, 07:58 PM
The league would have been better off if the Spurs starters played their normal minutes last night. I don't see how anyone could argue with that.The league also would have been better off if the schedules weren't so ridiculous that Pop has to rest his players in pursuit of success in the big picutre, and if the sheer multitude of games hadn't devalued the importance of each individual games to the point that its not a big deal in the overall picture of championship pursuit to basically throw in the towel on any number of individual games in a season.

rock747
11-30-2012, 08:01 PM
The NBA shouldn't have a say in what players play for individual teams... I mean essentially the NBA can fine you for anything... what precedence is being set here?

rock747
11-30-2012, 08:04 PM
There's no clear cut definition of the violation that took place... is every team going to have to be on their toes everytime the rest a player now?

shags
11-30-2012, 08:17 PM
How could this have been avoided? The old three could have sat on Wednesday Night.

And risked losing two games instead of one. That doesn't make sense.

Gregg Popovich said he made this decision when the schedule came out. And I believe him. He probably looked at the schedule, saw that they were most likely going to lose that game anyway (scheduling loss), so he figured it was a great opportunity to give his starters some rest. Popovich should have told Stern he was going to do it then.

I think the fact that he was so arrogant about it probably pissed Stern off. Nobody is more arrogant than David Stern. Nobody.

CableKC
11-30-2012, 08:20 PM
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/11/30/spurs-fined-announcement/index.html

San Antonio Spurs fined by league

Offiicial Release
Posted Nov 30, 2012 6:05 PM

The NBA announced Friday that the San Antonio Spurs organization has been fined $250,000 for its decision to send four players home prior to the Spurs' Nov. 29 game in Miami. The Spurs' actions were in violation of a league policy, reviewed with the NBA Board of Governors in April 2010, against resting players in a manner contrary to the best interests of the NBA.
This specific policy leaves ALOT of room for interpretation.....where resting Starters in one situation ( such as the Spurs resting their Starters against the Magic on Wednesday ) will be different in another situation ( such as the Spurs resting them on Thursday on National TV ), in this case....the best interest of the NBA ( in the case ) is how resting their Starters during a $$$ making game on National TV and how it affects the sponsors.

The question again is....where is the line drawn when it is not clearly defined in the NBA Policy?

rock747
11-30-2012, 08:24 PM
This specific policy leaves ALOT of room for interpretation.....where resting Starters in one situation ( such as the Spurs resting their Starters against the Magic on Wednesday ) will be different in another situation ( such as the Spurs resting them on Thursday on National TV ), in this case....the best interest of the NBA ( in the case ) is how resting their Starters during a $$$ making game on National TV and how it affects the sponsors.

The question again is....where is the line drawn when it is not clearly defined in the NBA Policy?

The NBA can fine you for anything and call it a manner contrary to the best interests of the NBA

Stryder
11-30-2012, 08:24 PM
The question again is....where is the line drawn when it is not clearly defined in the NBA Policy?

Wherever the line is drawn by the commissioner is where it is...basically, wherever and whenever and to whatever extent he sees fit.

Darren35
11-30-2012, 08:28 PM
Stern's leadership abilities are just pathetic imo. I would have liked to see Pop maybe reduce the minutes as opposed to send them home- but it is his team to manage as he sees fit. Stern's ego must be really fragile.

rm1369
11-30-2012, 08:32 PM
So where is the line that triggers a fine? TV game? Road game? 4 players? 2 players? Before the allstar break? Not dressing? No minutes? 15 minutes? When its raining on a Tuesday?

Somebody that think Sterns doing the right thing explain to me how this works? I'm guessing teams should present expected MPG for each player to the league office 24 hrs before game time. Once approved, they would have a 20% allowance to make "coaching decisions". Sound right?

diamonddave00
11-30-2012, 08:36 PM
Pop gave the league the finger, so King Stern felt he had to respond. The game was very entertaining, guess Pop should have said all 4 players came down with the flu and flew home for bed rest.

We all know if it hadn't been a National TV game no action from the league would have taken place period.

King Tuts Tomb
11-30-2012, 09:16 PM
For everyone complaining about the Heat somehow getting a favorable schedule or the league helping them out.

In early November, the Heat had a 4 game in 5 night road trip against Memphis, Houston, LAC and Denver, the Denver game being the second night of a back to back, on TNT.

So please quit with the conspiracy theories. Every team has to do this.

aamcguy
11-30-2012, 10:48 PM
For everyone complaining about the Heat somehow getting a favorable schedule or the league helping them out.

In early November, the Heat had a 4 game in 5 night road trip against Memphis, Houston, LAC and Denver, the Denver game being the second night of a back to back, on TNT.

So please quit with the conspiracy theories. Every team has to do this.

But how can you compare that to the hellish row of teams the Spurs just faced in the Raptors, Wizards, Magic, and then the Heat? ZOMG the Spurs have it soooo tough.

Anyway, the fine was more than I expected, but with that kind of money being thrown out there I bet the Spurs don't rest their 4 best players at once anymore. I also think it's funny that the entire thread was all "There's no rule that says they can't do this" all the way up to the point where Stern fines them based on a rule that has been around for 2 years.

kent beckley
11-30-2012, 11:19 PM
Could you expand on why the League ( as a whole ) would have been better if the Spurs Starters played their normal minutes?

I will answer your question with another question.

Would the league be better off having the Wizards and Cavaliers or the Celtics and Heat play on Christmas Day?

SycamoreKen
12-01-2012, 12:18 AM
Except one is expected at the end of the season and the other isn't. That wouldn't be consistent.

I know it has probably been commented on, but what about the fans that buy tickets for that one game, say its your kid's birthday, to see the Heat at the end of the season and they don't play his favorite player because they don't have to? last time I checked those teams are still on prime time with no real competition for viewers? Those fans and the integrity of the game do not matter? What if a team makes the playoffs by one game because they play one of these teams laying down? To say one is ok and the other is not is totally bogus.

Looks like the rating were ok.

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2012/11/spursheat-viewership-up-big-with-a-caveat/

SycamoreKen
12-01-2012, 12:20 AM
And risked losing two games instead of one. That doesn't make sense.

Gregg Popovich said he made this decision when the schedule came out. And I believe him. He probably looked at the schedule, saw that they were most likely going to lose that game anyway (scheduling loss), so he figured it was a great opportunity to give his starters some rest. Popovich should have told Stern he was going to do it then.

I think the fact that he was so arrogant about it probably pissed Stern off. Nobody is more arrogant than David Stern. Nobody.

Maybe he didn't realize Stern was going to get his panties in a bunch and didn't think it was a big deal? Heck, had they played the Heat may have gotten beaten down by 20 the way they played. How would that have been good?

CableKC
12-01-2012, 01:42 AM
I will answer your question with another question.

Would the league be better off having the Wizards and Cavaliers or the Celtics and Heat play on Christmas Day?
Easy....Celtics and Heat on Christmas day. I get that business-wise...it's better to play the Starters cuz its good for business ( as in an more sponsors and more $$$ ).....but as BillS said.......where is the line drawn between the Sports ( the NBA ) and Sports Entertainment ( WWE )?

vnzla81
12-01-2012, 01:48 AM
It's true what somebody was saying on twitter, why the Spurs are getting punished by doing this while teams that are tanking don't get punished?

CableKC
12-01-2012, 01:52 AM
It's true what somebody was saying on twitter, why the Spurs are getting punished by doing this while teams that are tanking don't get punished?
Cuz Stern doesn't answer to sponsors that don't care about those Teams or games.

I just hope that Stern is consistent with this later in the season when the Playoff Teams that are locked into their playoff spots start resting their Starters.

LuckSwagger
12-01-2012, 01:53 AM
It's probably been mentioned already but Popovich screwed up by sending those guys back to San Antonio. He could have kept them on the bench and decided not to play them. I don't have a problem with resting guys but doing it the way he did was bush-league, IMO.

rm1369
12-01-2012, 02:15 AM
It's probably been mentioned already but Popovich screwed up by sending those guys back to San Antonio. He could have kept them on the bench and decided not to play them. I don't have a problem with resting guys but doing it the way he did was bush-league, IMO.

What difference does it make if they are at home on the couch, in a suit on the bench, or in uniform make if they don't play? I thought the issue was that the viewing public didn't get to see them play?

SycamoreKen
12-01-2012, 02:46 AM
I guess if you take then to the game and sit them on the bench in street clothes the fans at least get to see them in person?

shags
12-01-2012, 10:16 AM
It's probably been mentioned already but Popovich screwed up by sending those guys back to San Antonio. He could have kept them on the bench and decided not to play them. I don't have a problem with resting guys but doing it the way he did was bush-league, IMO.

I think that's what probably pushed it over the top. That and Danny Green being involved.

BillS
12-01-2012, 11:06 AM
For everyone complaining about the Heat somehow getting a favorable schedule or the league helping them out.

In early November, the Heat had a 4 game in 5 night road trip against Memphis, Houston, LAC and Denver, the Denver game being the second night of a back to back, on TNT.

So please quit with the conspiracy theories. Every team has to do this.

The poster who mentioned that specific trip was pointing out it is the Heat's ONLY one.

Me, I just pointed out that the number of bad trips and/or b2b2... has nothing to do with standings in previous years.

Yes, every team has these scheduling things (which needs to be fixed). However, they are NOT evenly distributed in a given season (and how the heck could they possibly be?), so each team needs the leeway to handle them the way THEY see fit. NOT the way the league dictates.

King Tuts Tomb
12-01-2012, 01:22 PM
The poster who mentioned that specific trip was pointing out it is the Heat's ONLY one.

Me, I just pointed out that the number of bad trips and/or b2b2... has nothing to do with standings in previous years.

Yes, every team has these scheduling things (which needs to be fixed). However, they are NOT evenly distributed in a given season (and how the heck could they possibly be?), so each team needs the leeway to handle them the way THEY see fit. NOT the way the league dictates.

Like you said, how could they be evenly distributed? It's one of the hazards of an 82 game season. There's no problem with Pop resting players in 70 or so of those games. However there's clearly an unwritten rule that for the good of the league you take the marquee match ups seriously and give the nationally televised games your full effort.

I'm kind of surprised at how blown away people are that the league wants nationally televised games to be better. This seems like an exceedingly obvious part of life. When my boss is in the office I sit up a little straighter and really focus on that computer screen so it looks like I'm working hard. When I have lunch with my girlfriend's parents I maybe comb my hair and wear a nice shirt. I'm sure I won't get fired if I work like I normally do and my girlfriend won't break up with my because I dress like I usually do, but I understand the game being played here and I act accordingly. Pop understood it as well, he acted up on purpose to make a point to Stern and Stern's reaction was, in my opinion, justifiable.

Rogco
12-01-2012, 01:28 PM
But how is it fair to the fans that are paying money to see a game? The fans are the ones who are putting money into the NBA product. If the players aren't injured or have some other personal matter to attend to, they need to play.

I absolutely hate this argument. So is it fair to run the old Spurs players ragged and with huge potential ramifications on the year. Or more accurately, is it fair to Spurs fans, who are putting money into the NBA product, to run Spurs players ragged with large potential ramifications on the team they want to support? Of course not. 4 away games in 5 days, old players, way to many games in the schedule, it all adds up to logically sitting players, especially since the coach's responsibility isn't to Stern but to his fans.

It also doesn't help that Stern comes across as an unintelligent petulant child.

Rogco
12-01-2012, 01:31 PM
What difference does it make if they are at home on the couch, in a suit on the bench, or in uniform make if they don't play? I thought the issue was that the viewing public didn't get to see them play?

It makes no difference, furthermore, the point is to rest the players. Travelling and late schedules is probably just as tiring as the game itself. Makes absolutely no sense to rest them and make them be present.

Rogco
12-01-2012, 01:33 PM
It's true what somebody was saying on twitter, why the Spurs are getting punished by doing this while teams that are tanking don't get punished?

Excellent point. Also, couldn't an argument be made that playing fresh players gave the Spurs a better chance of winning? Not only did they cover the final spread, but they covered the initial spread as well, indicating that the idea to rest the older players and play fresh players actually improved the Spurs chances of winning.

aamcguy
12-01-2012, 01:43 PM
Excellent point. Also, couldn't an argument be made that playing fresh players gave the Spurs a better chance of winning? Not only did they cover the final spread, but they covered the initial spread as well, indicating that the idea to rest the older players and play fresh players actually improved the Spurs chances of winning.

That is a logical fallacy. No matter how good oddsmakers are, they aren't perfect. And teams "beat the odds" all the time, even if it happens less often than not. But you didn't see the Spurs play with their guys, so you can't make that assessment.

Furthermore, if in fact the stars DID play and the backups were doing so much better, they would have played more and the old guys still would have had the chance to rest. Personally, I would take a tired Duncan and Parker over anybody on their team almost 100% of the time and you are lying if you say you wouldn't.

Also, since the odds are only a prediction, you cannot treat them as if they actually happened.

CableKC
12-01-2012, 04:01 PM
I guess if you take then to the game and sit them on the bench in street clothes the fans at least get to see them in person?
If Stern wants to be a d*ck.....then I'd say that the difference would be that they'd have to be sitting on the bench in uniforms. If Pop wants to be safe...then play 1 minute then sit for the rest of the game.

naptownmenace
12-01-2012, 04:11 PM
It's probably been mentioned already but Popovich screwed up by sending those guys back to San Antonio. He could have kept them on the bench and decided not to play them. I don't have a problem with resting guys but doing it the way he did was bush-league, IMO.

That's one of the problems I had with what Pop did. Giving a player a DNP-CD is one thing. Sending them home and then not telling the league about it until right before the game is what got them in trouble this time based on what Stern said.

IIRC, A coach is supposed to report his lineup of active and inactive players by a certain time before each game. Part of the reason is so the opposing team can adjust their gameplan or at least know who they can expect to match up against. My guess is that Pop didn't do this.

SycamoreKen
12-01-2012, 05:02 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--david-stern-stumbles-again-in-his-failed-culture-war-against-the-spurs-194828970.html

Some stuff I had never heard about before in this story. Might even deserve its own thread considering it goes well beyond the Spurs issue. Stern looks more and more like Vince McMahon (sp?) every day.

BillS
12-01-2012, 05:21 PM
IIRC, A coach is supposed to report his lineup of active and inactive players by a certain time before each game. Part of the reason is so the opposing team can adjust their gameplan or at least know who they can expect to match up against. My guess is that Pop didn't do this.

Doubtful. Why fine him for something that generates controversy if you can fine him for actually breaking a hard rule like reporting rosters?

ChicagoJ
12-01-2012, 05:38 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--david-stern-stumbles-again-in-his-failed-culture-war-against-the-spurs-194828970.html

Some stuff I had never heard about before in this story. Might even deserve its own thread considering it goes well beyond the Spurs issue. Stern looks more and more like Vince McMahon (sp?) every day.

That was outstanding. Thanks for linking it.

SycamoreKen
12-01-2012, 06:12 PM
You are welcome J. After reading it one realize just how inept Knicks management has been. Was that illegal stuff before Donnie got there?

AesopRockOn
12-01-2012, 07:36 PM
I would like to know how Danny Green was chosen.

Coopdog23
12-01-2012, 08:25 PM
I would like to know how Danny Green was chosen.

He must have some kind of injury we don't know about

Rogco
12-01-2012, 08:58 PM
That is a logical fallacy. No matter how good oddsmakers are, they aren't perfect. And teams "beat the odds" all the time, even if it happens less often than not. But you didn't see the Spurs play with their guys, so you can't make that assessment.

Furthermore, if in fact the stars DID play and the backups were doing so much better, they would have played more and the old guys still would have had the chance to rest. Personally, I would take a tired Duncan and Parker over anybody on their team almost 100% of the time and you are lying if you say you wouldn't.

Also, since the odds are only a prediction, you cannot treat them as if they actually happened.

You are most definitely incorrect. Of course my argument is wrong, it wasn't supposed to be right. What it does do is shine a light on Stern's argument reaction and show how incorrect he is. I'm not sure why Stern is angry, but most people seem to feel it's because the Spurs didn't field a competitive product, hence disrespecting fans and sponsors. Your point about odds, and backups playing, just proves my point that Stern has no point.

aamcguy
12-01-2012, 09:59 PM
You are most definitely incorrect. Of course my argument is wrong, it wasn't supposed to be right. What it does do is shine a light on Stern's argument reaction and show how incorrect he is. I'm not sure why Stern is angry, but most people seem to feel it's because the Spurs didn't field a competitive product, hence disrespecting fans and sponsors. Your point about odds, and backups playing, just proves my point that Stern has no point.

How am I incorrect? And why would you post something that was purposefully incorrect? They can't both be wrong because my post was a direct rebuttal to the argument you posed in yours. My point about odds proves nothing about Stern. If it does and I'm missing something huge, please inform me how it relates.

A competitive product is not really the issue IMO. For one isolated game, any team in the NBA can beat any other team in the NBA. It is why even the worst teams in the NBA usually rack in about 10-20 wins a season. They have a great coach, and it's not really surprising they overachieved for most of one night.

The rationale behind the fine seems to be that they didn't play what is recognizeable as the Spurs. Yes, the Spurs have other players that play, and if those 4 don't play they are still technically the Spurs. But the four who were sent home combine to use up 49% of the Spurs minutes in games they are a part of. You had fans in Miami expecting to see those players, fans considering tuning into TNT expecting to see those players, fans who perhaps couldn't watch the game expecting to see the result of a game featuring two powerhouses, and millions of dollars being spent by sponsors and advertisers expecting those Spurs to be present.

Basically the Spurs gave a big middle finger to everybody involved. And yes, I do believe it is different resting your players as opposed to resting your players by sending them home on a flight the night before. They purposefully elected to not have their best team available when there was no valid reason they shouldn't be. They conceded the result of the game was meaningless. Sure they would still liked to have won, but they expected to lose because they sent home their best players.

Rogco
12-01-2012, 10:29 PM
How am I incorrect? And why would you post something that was purposefully incorrect? They can't both be wrong because my post was a direct rebuttal to the argument you posed in yours. My point about odds proves nothing about Stern. If it does and I'm missing something huge, please inform me how it relates.

A competitive product is not really the issue IMO. For one isolated game, any team in the NBA can beat any other team in the NBA. It is why even the worst teams in the NBA usually rack in about 10-20 wins a season. They have a great coach, and it's not really surprising they overachieved for most of one night.

The rationale behind the fine seems to be that they didn't play what is recognizeable as the Spurs. Yes, the Spurs have other players that play, and if those 4 don't play they are still technically the Spurs. But the four who were sent home combine to use up 49% of the Spurs minutes in games they are a part of. You had fans in Miami expecting to see those players, fans considering tuning into TNT expecting to see those players, fans who perhaps couldn't watch the game expecting to see the result of a game featuring two powerhouses, and millions of dollars being spent by sponsors and advertisers expecting those Spurs to be present.

Basically the Spurs gave a big middle finger to everybody involved. And yes, I do believe it is different resting your players as opposed to resting your players by sending them home on a flight the night before. They purposefully elected to not have their best team available when there was no valid reason they shouldn't be. They conceded the result of the game was meaningless. Sure they would still liked to have won, but they expected to lose because they sent home their best players.

Let's start with your first statement. You were incorrect because you were rebutting something that was never a statement. It was the assertion that an argument could be made, and my assertion that there could be an assertion was correct. By playing fresher players it is possible that the Spurs increased their chances of winning, and there are statistics out there to back that up. I never said it was correct.

As for your argument, I'm a little confused. In the second paragraph you say a competitive product is not the issue (which is good, because it was a competitive product), but then in the last paragraph you state the Spurs conceded the result of the game was meaningless, which is a problem. So competition doesn't matter as long as you admit the outcome is important? Is that why teams can tank at the end of the year (a massive middle finger to fans). Because when teams tank at the end of the year, they are admitting the outcome is important, but competition isn't. If competition is the point, the Spurs came out and should have won that game, therefore they were competitive. But based on your third paragraph, I think you are saying the problem isn't competition, it isn't importance or result, but lack of star players. If that is the only real issue, then why don't we have some "games" where star players come out on the court and just wave at people.

Furthermore, please show me the viewing figures of the game vs other TNT games, and also provide the Thursday night football games each Thursday night basketball game was up against, and then we can begin to decide whether resting players had an effect on TNT. Currently, I am of the opinion that the resting of players actually increased viewing figures. As the public is king, this would indicate that resting star players actually increased interest in the game.

Furthermore, of course it is different to rest players at home vs resting them on the road. At home they don't have to travel all day, they can eat with their families, sleep in their beds, and actually rest. On the road they are travelling for hours and not really resting up. It is logical that if you are going to rest players from a road game, and it is the last road game, you are not going to make them show up. That would defeat the purpose.

As for a middle finger to Stern, I couldn't care less. Stern's job is to run the league, not hold personal grudges against people, players and teams because they don't do what he wants. Technically, the Spurs broke no NBA laws, regulation, rules or by-laws. Stern has no justification for his anger or his punishment from any logical basis, except the obvious: He is insecure.

My point is this, Stern has embarrassed and turned off more potential fans with his irrational rants, inconsistent punishments, and obvious personal vendettas than the Spurs and Popovich will ever do by playing the game they way the think it should be played. Furthermore, I will assert, and happily argue, that Popovich has done much better at his job over the last 13 years than Stern has at his.

aamcguy
12-01-2012, 11:34 PM
Let's start with your first statement. You were incorrect because you were rebutting something that was never a statement. It was the assertion that an argument could be made, and my assertion that there could be an assertion was correct. By playing fresher players it is possible that the Spurs increased their chances of winning, and there are statistics out there to back that up. I never said it was correct.

Are you really trying to convince me that I'm wrong because I was arguing against an assertion that an assertion could potentially be made? Besides making it look like you were just trolling to begin with, I was arguing against the logic used. The fact that you don't personally hold the belief is irrelevant.


Excellent point. Also, couldn't an argument be made that playing fresh players gave the Spurs a better chance of winning? Not only did they cover the final spread, but they covered the initial spread as well, indicating that the idea to rest the older players and play fresh players actually improved the Spurs chances of winning.

The above quote is what you wrote originally. And what I have bolded is what I really was arguing against. I wasn't arguing against you personally, I was arguing against the statement that you proposed. Again, whether or not you believed it or were just trolling is irrelevant because what you said could actually be a valid point to think about, even if it is probably incorrect.


As for your argument, I'm a little confused. In the second paragraph you say a competitive product is not the issue (which is good, because it was a competitive product), but then in the last paragraph you state the Spurs conceded the result of the game was meaningless, which is a problem. So competition doesn't matter as long as you admit the outcome is important? Is that why teams can tank at the end of the year (a massive middle finger to fans). Because when teams tank at the end of the year, they are admitting the outcome is important, but competition isn't. If competition is the point, the Spurs came out and should have won that game, therefore they were competitive. But based on your third paragraph, I think you are saying the problem isn't competition, it isn't importance or result, but lack of star players. If that is the only real issue, then why don't we have some "games" where star players come out on the court and just wave at people.

I may have made it unclear. What I meant to say is that even if it was a competitive product, it was not the intended product. This is a league that is driven by spectators, so when people either pay or make time to see the Spurs they should see the Spurs. And if the Spurs want them to sit out they should at least be there available to play if the need arises or AT LEAST there in street clothes supporting their team. The integrity of the contest was compromised because one team's management elected to greatly reduce their chances of winning.



Furthermore, please show me the viewing figures of the game vs other TNT games, and also provide the Thursday night football games each Thursday night basketball game was up against, and then we can begin to decide whether resting players had an effect on TNT. Currently, I am of the opinion that the resting of players actually increased viewing figures. As the public is king, this would indicate that resting star players actually increased interest in the game.

Even if I cared about the actual viewing figures, it would be impossible to tell. Because the fact is that most people seem to disapprove of David Stern and he came out with a very strong, well publicized statement right before the game against the Spurs. It is a massive compounding variable.



Furthermore, of course it is different to rest players at home vs resting them on the road. At home they don't have to travel all day, they can eat with their families, sleep in their beds, and actually rest. On the road they are travelling for hours and not really resting up. It is logical that if you are going to rest players from a road game, and it is the last road game, you are not going to make them show up. That would defeat the purpose.

You know Orlando is only about 3 hours from Miami, with about 22 hours between. Which gives plenty of time for a good night's sleep, let's round up and say 5 hours travel total where all they have to do is sit, and a restful day. Even if they sleep 9 hours, they still have enough time for 8 hours of rest before coming and sitting in a padded chair courtside for 3 hours. Yeah, I think I could manage that day without stress.



As for a middle finger to Stern, I couldn't care less. Stern's job is to run the league, not hold personal grudges against people, players and teams because they don't do what he wants. Technically, the Spurs broke no NBA laws, regulation, rules or by-laws. Stern has no justification for his anger or his punishment from any logical basis, except the obvious: He is insecure.

My point is this, Stern has embarrassed and turned off more potential fans with his irrational rants, inconsistent punishments, and obvious personal vendettas than the Spurs and Popovich will ever do by playing the game they way the think it should be played. Furthermore, I will assert, and happily argue, that Popovich has done much better at his job over the last 13 years than Stern has at his.

And there we have it. You don't like this fine because you don't like David Stern, not because of any lack of justification. Also, it did break an NBA regulation. You should read up on things like that before you use the opposite as argument support.

rm1369
12-02-2012, 12:16 AM
And there we have it. You don't like this fine because you don't like David Stern, not because of any lack of justification. Also, it did break an NBA regulation. You should read up on things like that before you use the opposite as argument support.

They broke the well defined "contrary to the best interest of the league" clause. Thats best defined as - they pissed off David Stern. Pop had done this before and the league was ok with it - even issued a statement saying such. So lets not pretend that the Spurs broke a long standing, well defined league rule.

Can you definitely state where the line is?

aamcguy
12-02-2012, 12:54 AM
They broke the well defined "contrary to the best interest of the league" clause. Thats best defined as - they pissed off David Stern. Pop had done this before and the league was ok with it - even issued a statement saying such. So lets not pretend that the Spurs broke a long standing, well defined league rule.

Can you definitely state where the line is?

No, I can't. But I don't have to. Like all suspensions, fines, and other disciplinary actions the league determined the punishment individually. So let's not pretend that the NBA deviated from their usual method of punishment. The statement:


The Spursí actions were in violation of a league policy, reviewed with the NBA Board of Governors in April 2010, against resting players in a manner contrary to the best interests of the NBA.

He was well within his rights to fine them. Considering the "best interest of the NBA" will almost always be a financial one when you're thinking from the viewpoint of the league it makes sense.

Have you considered the possibile future ramifications if the league didn't come out with any kind of statement for a nationally televised game? I know if I was looking to buy tickets to a Spurs game in this situation in the future, then I would look at the schedule and see if it was toward the end of a rough stretch for them. If it was, I would consider not buying a ticket to that game because though the Spurs are my 2nd favorite team, I don't know all of their players very well. I like them because I love the style of basketball they play, but I don't want to see that style sans Parker and Duncan. The point of the probably excessive fine is that they want future ticket buyers to think that they won't consider doing it.

rm1369
12-02-2012, 01:14 AM
No, I can't. But I don't have to. Like all suspensions, fines, and other disciplinary actions the league determined the punishment individually. So let's not pretend that the NBA deviated from their usual method of punishment.

I don't believe there is anything unusual about the fine. It's Stern doing what Stern typically does - pimp the league out to the sponsors to the point the line between sport and entertainment becomes blurred. Remember him changing the freakin ball? I suppose you believe that was a good move as well because Stern decided to do it, he is all powerful, therefore it most have been right.




He was well within his rights to fine them. Considering the "best interest of the NBA" will almost always be a financial one when you're thinking from the viewpoint of the league it makes sense.

Have you considered the possibile future ramifications if the league didn't come out with any kind of statement for a nationally televised game? I know if I was looking to buy tickets to a Spurs game in this situation in the future, then I would look at the schedule and see if it was toward the end of a rough stretch for them. If it was, I would consider not buying a ticket to that game because though the Spurs are my 2nd favorite team, I don't know all of their players very well. I like them because I love the style of basketball they play, but I don't want to see that style sans Parker and Duncan. The point of the probably excessive fine is that they want future ticket buyers to think that they won't consider doing it.

First - Pop has done this before and other than some very minor grumbling, its not been a huge deal. the only reason we are still talking about this is Sterns reaction. Otherwise it would have went away pretty damn quickly - just as it had before. Second - if you want to penalize the Spurs for doing this, then just dont put them on TV in these scenarios. They have historically been a poor TV draw anyway. Most importantly - how about the league try to address the issue like the NFL is attempting to do - by adjusting the schedule? How about you work to eliminate 4 games in 5 night scenarios. Not only do you eliminate this supposed huge issue, but you lessen injury risk, and you improve play. Believe it or not, players play better when they are healthy and rested. But it's more important for Stern to be in control than it is to fix the root of the damn issue.

aamcguy
12-02-2012, 01:36 AM
I don't believe there is anything unusual about the fine. It's Stern doing what Stern typically does - pimp the league out to the sponsors to the point the line between sport and entertainment becomes blurred. Remember him changing the freakin ball? I suppose you believe that was a good move as well because Stern decided to do it, he is all powerful, therefore it most have been right.





First - Pop has done this before and other than some very minor grumbling, its not been a huge deal. the only reason we are still talking about this is Sterns reaction. Otherwise it would have went away pretty damn quickly - just as it had before. Second - if you want to penalize the Spurs for doing this, then just dont put them on TV in these scenarios. They have historically been a poor TV draw anyway. Most importantly - how about the league try to address the issue like the NFL is attempting to do - by adjusting the schedule? How about you work to eliminate 4 games in 5 night scenarios. Not only do you eliminate this supposed huge issue, but you lessen injury risk, and you improve play. Believe it or not, players play better when they are healthy and rested. But it's more important for Stern to be in control than it is to fix the root of the damn issue.

You realize Stern's job is basically to make sure the league makes money right? So of course anything he does will be to that extent. As will any commisioner who comes after him. Agree or disagree with him, but he had the right to fine them based on what they did. If what Popovich does is so widely accepted, how come none of the other teams rest their players in the same manner?

And I have to disagree with the NFL helping injuries through scheduling. They also this season added in extra Thursday night games which actually decrease time between games. So instead of 6 or 7 days teams are having to play on 3 or 4 days of rest. The NFL players hate Thursday night games. And the league management has been pushing for an extended regular season for several years now. No, the NFL is not a good model for player health.

rm1369
12-02-2012, 02:47 AM
You realize Stern's job is basically to make sure the league makes money right? So of course anything he does will be to that extent. As will any commisioner who comes after him. Agree or disagree with him, but he had the right to fine them based on what they did. If what Popovich does is so widely accepted, how come none of the other teams rest their players in the same manner?

And I have to disagree with the NFL helping injuries through scheduling. They also this season added in extra Thursday night games which actually decrease time between games. So instead of 6 or 7 days teams are having to play on 3 or 4 days of rest. The NFL players hate Thursday night games. And the league management has been pushing for an extended regular season for several years now. No, the NFL is not a good model for player health.

So you agree with Sterns attempt to change the ball? It was certainly about money. Is there ever a point in your mind when trying to squeeze out a few more dollars is less important than the integrity of the game? How about favoring big market, star driven teams to generate better finals ratings? Or extending series to get the critical 7th games? I suppose either of those would be fine. I mean its about maximizing dollars - period. Screw integrity! The league commissioner is telling a coach who to play when. And he's telling us that Miami is more important than Portland.The Spurs didn't get fined last year when they sat the big three against Portland.

Many coaches rest players. Do they do it in the same manner as Pop? No. But the last time I looked, Pop is one of (if not THE) best coaches in the league. And he has a three aging stars that all also play a lot internationally. Why do you think he does it if he doesn't believe it helps his team? Do you believe he is trying to sabotage the league? The fact it occurs so rarely is another reason Stern should have kept his mouth shut and simply not scheduled the Spurs to play one of his "important games" (meaning Miami, LA, etc) as the 4th game in 5 nights on TV.

I never compared the leagues for injuries. I compared their handling of the resting players issue. The NFL publicly stated they didn't like teams resting players towards the end of the season. Especially teams like the Colts that were doing it 3 weeks before the end of the season. But instead of fining the teams and taking personnel decisions out of the coaches hands, they simply have moved more division games into the last few weeks of the season to attempt to keep teams from clinching spots too early. It may or may not work, but the point is that the NFL is handling it in a way that doesn't involve dictating strategy and playing time decisions to teams.

And you keep saying Stern is within his rights. So? Just because Stern is all powerful when it comes to matters NBA doesn't mean he should have handled it the way he did. the league has had two very recent lockouts, a ref gambling scandal, a team that had to be owned and operated by the league, 1/2 the teams have been claiming they are losing money, players are constantly holding teams hostage to dictate their terms even while under contract, and stars are affecting competitive balance by colluding to unite in destination cities - excuse me if I don't believe that something is right just because der furher says so.

Sandman21
12-02-2012, 03:01 AM
If I'm Peter Holt, not only would I refuse to pay the fine, I'm beginning to push for Stern to removed before his planned retirement date.

hackashaq
12-02-2012, 05:27 AM
I don't know that Stern reacted to this properly.

But I have to say, I was a little put off by Popovich. He whines for months about the schedule, no one listens, and then he just 'happens' to pick a game where he very well knows that Stern will go nuts. Pop should limit his political activism to hack-a-shaq.

CableKC
12-02-2012, 05:51 AM
I read somewhere that one of the reasons why Pop rested the Geriatric 3 on Thursday against one of marquee Teams in the East ( a non-consequential game to a Western Conference Team ) was so that they would be fresh to play a far more important game today ( Saturday )....a game against their Division rival and the best Team in the West...the Grizzlies.

Pop didn't play them to simply rest them....but...when you think of it....he did so for the long-term good of the Team.

And guess what? The Spurs beat the Grizzlies in OT at home.

Winning a game against a division rival that could very well be a Team that you will be fighting for Playoff positioning is way more important to the Spurs/Pop than pleasing corporate sponsors.

It's not important to Stern...but I totally understand Pops reasoning.

rm1369
12-02-2012, 12:05 PM
I don't know that Stern reacted to this properly.

But I have to say, I was a little put off by Popovich. He whines for months about the schedule, no one listens, and then he just 'happens' to pick a game where he very well knows that Stern will go nuts. Pop should limit his political activism to hack-a-shaq.

He picked a game where his team was playing its 4th game in 5 nights against a non conference opponent. Add in that the other team was elite and very well rested (likely loss regardless who played) and the next game would be against an elite team in his own conference (game means more to the spurs for playoff seeding) and it makes perfect sense for this to be the game he chose.

aamcguy
12-02-2012, 12:35 PM
So you agree with Sterns attempt to change the ball? It was certainly about money. Is there ever a point in your mind when trying to squeeze out a few more dollars is less important than the integrity of the game? How about favoring big market, star driven teams to generate better finals ratings? Or extending series to get the critical 7th games? I suppose either of those would be fine. I mean its about maximizing dollars - period. Screw integrity! The league commissioner is telling a coach who to play when. And he's telling us that Miami is more important than Portland.The Spurs didn't get fined last year when they sat the big three against Portland.

Many coaches rest players. Do they do it in the same manner as Pop? No. But the last time I looked, Pop is one of (if not THE) best coaches in the league. And he has a three aging stars that all also play a lot internationally. Why do you think he does it if he doesn't believe it helps his team? Do you believe he is trying to sabotage the league? The fact it occurs so rarely is another reason Stern should have kept his mouth shut and simply not scheduled the Spurs to play one of his "important games" (meaning Miami, LA, etc) as the 4th game in 5 nights on TV.

I never compared the leagues for injuries. I compared their handling of the resting players issue. The NFL publicly stated they didn't like teams resting players towards the end of the season. Especially teams like the Colts that were doing it 3 weeks before the end of the season. But instead of fining the teams and taking personnel decisions out of the coaches hands, they simply have moved more division games into the last few weeks of the season to attempt to keep teams from clinching spots too early. It may or may not work, but the point is that the NFL is handling it in a way that doesn't involve dictating strategy and playing time decisions to teams.

And you keep saying Stern is within his rights. So? Just because Stern is all powerful when it comes to matters NBA doesn't mean he should have handled it the way he did. the league has had two very recent lockouts, a ref gambling scandal, a team that had to be owned and operated by the league, 1/2 the teams have been claiming they are losing money, players are constantly holding teams hostage to dictate their terms even while under contract, and stars are affecting competitive balance by colluding to unite in destination cities - excuse me if I don't believe that something is right just because der furher says so.


The beauty about the Spurs' situation is that it was both an issue of integrity and one with monetary value. And please stop putting words in my mouth to formulate your arguments; I did not say that the NBA should base all of its decisions on whether or not it makes money. And I very much doubt changing the ball had to do with money.

Just because Popovich likes to rest his players differently than other coaches doesn't mean he's right. He already knew it chafed the league; last season they made a statement that they would be allowing him to send home players that way because it was a unique season. You want to talk about integrity of the game? How about playing in a front of a sold-out crowd when the four healthy players who play the most minutes aren't even in the building. Take into account that Kawhi Leonard was injured too, and their entire starting 5 was not playing.

Yes, that sounds like a contest to me. For all your talk of integrity of the game, you would think it would upset you when a team decides a game isn't worth winning. I understand it's more fun to scapegoat Stern for his anger, the scheduling, the conspiracy theory that he hates Spurs, and everything else. But this is the NBA, where there are 82 games in a season. And they just took 1 of their premier matchups off so they could rest.

Some people have talked about slippery slopes of the league fining teams for lots of things, but there is one year. And it's just as plausible for the other. Would you really like to watch the NBA as much if every team rested their best players every time they had a harsh run of games? That would happen at least 2-3 times a year for clubs. So you're looking at 60-90 games that could be affected, and that doesn't even consider the games where injured players are out. Yeah, it would probably never happen like that. But it's just as likely as the league fining teams constantly for minor infractions.

hackashaq
12-02-2012, 01:30 PM
He picked a game where his team was playing its 4th game in 5 nights against a non conference opponent. Add in that the other team was elite and very well rested (likely loss regardless who played) and the next game would be against an elite team in his own conference (game means more to the spurs for playoff seeding) and it makes perfect sense for this to be the game he chose.

yeah, well, i don't even know what sucks more - Popovich trying to stick it to Stern and NBA scheduling people the way he did, or teams openly sitting their stars based on the line of thinking "oh well, we'll probably lose anyway, so lets just rest".

There's been a bit of power struggle going on for a while on this issue and Stern has discussed it with owners. There's no way Pop wasn't aware of this or forgot this, and no way he didn't anticipate that he will put Stern into berserker mode. He probably didn't anticipate the fine, that's all.

hackashaq
12-02-2012, 01:36 PM
Would you really like to watch the NBA as much if every team rested their best players every time they had a harsh run of games?

I think all the contenders should rest in games vs. other contenders. Keep the fun for the playoffs!
The NBA will lose some billions in their next TV deal, and we will have another lockout, but who cares.

rm1369
12-02-2012, 01:48 PM
I think all the contenders should rest in games vs. other contenders. Keep the fun for the playoffs!
The NBA will lose some billions in their next TV deal, and we will have another lockout, but who cares.

Nah, it's better for the commissioner to manage playing times for teams.