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View Full Version : Why The Pacers Missed on Mayo and How They Can Fix It.



eldubious
11-24-2012, 02:36 PM
Once again, the Pacers missed out on the guy that they need, OJ Mayo. While, Mayo is reaching stardom in Dallas, the Pacers are stuck with Gerald "high hopes, no results" Green. The Pacers chose quanity over quality in the free agent market. They went for Green, Augustine, and Mahinmi when they probably could have used the money for two of those players and signed Mayo. I'm not even sure I would have been so quick to trade Collison either. But, they can salvage the season by targeting another young misplaced player in Tyreke Evans. The Kings have an influx of wings and Evans would bring in the most return. Hansbrough and Green or Stephenson would be a good package. Hopefully, Walsh and Pritchard can make up for their offseason mistakes.

Justin Tyme
11-24-2012, 02:53 PM
Once again, the Pacers missed out on the guy that they need, OJ Mayo. While, Mayo is reaching stardom in Dallas, the Pacers are stuck with Gerald "high hopes, no results" Green. The Pacers chose quanity over quality in the free agent market. They went for Green, Augustine, and Mahinmi when they probably could have used the money for two of those players and signed Mayo. I'm not even sure I would have been so quick to trade Collison either. But, they can salvage the season by targeting another young misplaced player in Tyreke Evans. The Kings have an influx of wings and Evans would bring in the most return. Hansbrough and Green or Stephenson would be a good package. Hopefully, Walsh and Pritchard can make up for their offseason mistakes.


MARSHON BROOKS

He's a player the Pacers should be looking at, and he's on a rookie contract playing behind Joe Johnson which means he's not getting much PT.

yoadknux
11-24-2012, 03:03 PM
We don't have the cap flexibility to make many deals, and usually junk doesn't get you quality players. How is Hansbrough and Green or Lance a good package for former ROY Tyreke Evans?

I think this team is what it is. The only significant trades we could do will probably have to involve George, Granger, maybe West.

Cousy47
11-24-2012, 03:20 PM
I thought Mayo took less money than we were offering him to go to Dallas. Is that not correct? IMO, the only trade pieces the Pacers have this year are West(expiring) and George. Who else do we have that would even bring in matching quality, let alone a "star"?

2minutes twoa
11-24-2012, 04:07 PM
MARSHON BROOKS

He's a player the Pacers should be looking at, and he's on a rookie contract playing behind Joe Johnson which means he's not getting much PT.

I like this idea. West/Green for Humphries/Brooks. I love West, but if he doesn't fit the long term plans there won't be a better time to move him. Plus Green was a huge fan favorite. We get a younger more athletic 4 that can rebound and a sharp shooter without gutting the core.

Eleazar
11-24-2012, 04:13 PM
I still do not understand the fascination with Mayo, unless you like players who don't try when they are coming off the bench.

xIndyFan
11-24-2012, 04:24 PM
I still do not understand the fascination with Mayo, unless you like players who don't try when they are coming off the bench.

:laugh: I didn't thank it, but I did think it was funny..

Heisenberg
11-24-2012, 08:35 PM
I thought Mayo took less money than we were offering him to go to Dallas. Is that not correct? IMO, the only trade pieces the Pacers have this year are West(expiring) and George. Who else do we have that would even bring in matching quality, let alone a "star"?
No one knows if we offered a deal to Mayo, and if we did how much.

But yes, he took less money from several teams, specifically the Suns, to go to Dallas and start. It's not at all out of the question that we were another of those teams.

Pacerized
11-24-2012, 09:09 PM
I doubt if the team even made an offer to Mayo but I'd rather we tried instead of going for Green. I agree with your thoughts that Walsh went after quantity over quality. Overall I wish we had left the bench alone except for making a run at Kaman. I don't think we can do much right now except wait things out and hope we get lucky before the trade deadline. The one position we've been solid in so far this year has been at the 4. I don't want to see Tyler or West traded for a wing.

1984
11-24-2012, 11:11 PM
But, they can salvage the season by targeting another young misplaced player in Tyreke Evans.

Wow, I believe that I can work with that that. That is a fantastic idea. I wish that there were a way to make it happen.

Naptown_Seth
11-25-2012, 12:57 AM
Look!!!

Over There!!!

Don't You Guys See It!!!!


GREEN GRASS!!! SO VERY VERY DEEP GREEN AND LUSH GRASS!!

sigh, if only we had that grass instead of the crappy old dead brown crabgrass....i mean sure it's actually a Kentucky bluegrass variety and its only brown in a few spots, but still....LOOK OVER THERE!

CableKC
11-25-2012, 01:14 AM
No one knows if we offered a deal to Mayo, and if we did how much.

But yes, he took less money from several teams, specifically the Suns, to go to Dallas and start. It's not at all out of the question that we were another of those teams.
This is the key point that many have missed. Given that we have all of our Starting positions filled.....why would a Player like Mayo go to a team where he would be coming off the bench ( even as the 6th man ) when he could go to a team like the Mavs and start? That is what most have to realize....at best the Pacers could offer a 6th man role to someone who wanted to be a Starter.

vnzla81
11-25-2012, 01:18 AM
Pacers don't need Mayo, they already have a great player in Green and Young is the cherry in top of the ice cream.

Shame on you people for looking at other players in other teams and for not been happy to have a losing record with those guys shame on you!!!!!

Hopefully next year the Pacers instead of looking for the greener grass on another team they look for the turd that the neighbors dog left in top of the green grass again and hopefully they give that turd a long term contract again.....

Sollozzo
11-25-2012, 01:24 AM
If Mayo is Kentucky bluegrass, then McRoberts is brown grass in mid-August that hasn't been watered all summer. If only that trade didn't collapse at the last second.....

docpaul
11-25-2012, 01:52 AM
I'd like them to start with things in their control. For example:

1) Lower our turnovers... hi Paul and Roy, we have some of the worst team TO #'s in the league

2) Improve FG%... hi Roy, you're 7'2" and you're shooting <38% for the year.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/shootingEfficiency/position/centers

3) Reduce opponent FGA (highest in the league)... this probably relates to our high TO #'s and the fact that we force very very few opponent turnovers (again, worst in the league)... We need more active hands and disruption of passing lanes.

4) Improve FT%... bottom 5 in league

Still a few positives, given the record... including the impressive defensive #'s, and the emergence of Lance and Hans...

I bet this starts to turn around, as players start to rebuild their confidence.

Peck
11-25-2012, 02:13 AM
Pacers don't need Mayo, they already have a great player in Green and Young is the cherry in top of the ice cream.

Shame on you people for looking at other players in other teams and for not been happy to have a losing record with those guys shame on you!!!!!

Hopefully next year the Pacers instead of looking for the greener grass on another team they look for the turd that the neighbors dog left in top of the green grass again and hopefully they give that turd a long term contract again.....

:spitout: Ok that was damn funny.

King Tuts Tomb
11-25-2012, 02:58 AM
Another Mayo thread? You guys really aren't swayed by facts, or reality. We couldn't get Mayo.

You might as well start a thread titled: Why the Pacers missed on LeBron and how they can fix it (by targeting Kevin Durant)

CableKC
11-25-2012, 03:43 AM
Pacers don't need Mayo, they already have a great player in Green and Young is the cherry in top of the ice cream.

Shame on you people for looking at other players in other teams and for not been happy to have a losing record with those guys shame on you!!!!!

Hopefully next year the Pacers instead of looking for the greener grass on another team they look for the turd that the neighbors dog left in top of the green grass again and hopefully they give that turd a long term contract again.....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ELFl2_1q7DI/TObn1HnV2fI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/5JkvAtpbv7k/s1600/Not_sure_if_serious.jpg

D-BONE
11-25-2012, 09:48 AM
I would have started Mayo over PG.

And, now with Granger's situation, Mayo would be starting there anyway with PG at SF.

All this is speculative in terms of what negotiation were with him as a FA, just saying I would have been willing to lure him with a starting spot. This would have made PG have to actually earn starting position over the course of the year. Maybe being the key man on the second unit would have been perfect for him. And that's not to say he wouldn't have been on the floor in crunch time if matchups demanded his defense.

vnzla81
11-25-2012, 10:05 AM
I don't think the issue was Mayo wanting to start but Mayo wanting close to 10mil a year, Dallas was ideal for him because he is not only starting but the short term contract he got gives him an opportunity to try to get more money next year, if he keeps averaging 20ppg I wouldn't be surprised if a team gives him what he is going to be asking.

I expect the Pacers to have some interest in him next year (as always) but at the end of the day they are going to end up bringing some turd from the end of other teams bench.

diamonddave00
11-25-2012, 10:09 AM
Remember when free agency opened OJ Mayo and Courtney Lee were the 2 scorers off the bench the Pacers were linked to but both wanted starter money Lee around 8 mil and Mayo 10 and both according to sources seemed to have multi-team interest.

Once the Blazers reached an agreement with Hibbert and Hill agreed to his contract the Pacers did not have the money Mayo wanted to offer him. Mayo got the Suns offer which was in the 8 mil range. With the fear of not getting the scorer they wanted off the bench they reached out and signed Gerald Green for 3.5 mil per instead.

After the Mahinmi trade and the Augustin signing pushed the Pacers against the luxury tax is when the Mayo decision to sign for less in Dallas occured, the Pacers could not act at that point. In hindsight if the Pacers had known the market would dry up for Mayo and Lee they may have waited on signing Gerald Green. They acted to assure themselves of getting one of the 3 they had targeted in Green rather than getting no one.

Pacerized
11-25-2012, 02:01 PM
The fact that we missed out on bargain amnesty players in Scola and Brand as well as not being able to take advantage of the low ball market for Mayo and Kaman is the fault of our front office. It was simply poor time management in how the signed Hibbert and Hill and that is the job or Walsh and Pritchard. I will not believe that a conversation with Hibbert and Hill to explain to them that they'd get their money no matter what but could return to a more talented team if they waited a few more weeks wouldn't have worked.

Dece
11-25-2012, 02:15 PM
Or they could have just not signed Hibbert, gotten the better player in Asik, or a decent replacement in Kaman, and they could have waited for someone to give Hill an offer sheet, no rush on that, we had RFA rights.

Ace E.Anderson
11-25-2012, 03:17 PM
Or they could have just not signed Hibbert, gotten the better player in Asik, or a decent replacement in Kaman, and they could have waited for someone to give Hill an offer sheet, no rush on that, we had RFA rights.

Up until last season, Omer Asik didn't show to be anything more but a big body who could bang inside and play some defense. He didn't play terribly well in the playoff series against the 76ers when Joakim Noah was out.

Meanwhile Roy was coming off an all star season, and the Miami playoff series where he demonstrated an ability to be an elite interior defender and a good rebounder.

As far as Hill is concerned, we traded away the season's previous first rounder, and again, Hill demonstrated an ability to be a good finisher in games throughout the season and the series against ORL. We had played at our best when he was our starter last year, and the FO wanted to move forward with him as our starting PG.

Yes, I agree that we could've allowed him to sign an offer sheet elsewhere, but lets say we would have given Mayo 8-10+ Mil in order to come here. What makes anyone so sure that he would be playing as well here as he is in DAL? Completely different system, and situations. He's thriving right now because he is basically their first option offensively right now. Here he would have to run a similar offense to what he ran in MEM when they were very post heavy, and he was having to spot up for many attempts.

Hindsight is 20/20. IF we knew Danny was going to be out, maybe we pay Mayo, maybe we decide NOT to trade DC, maybe we are a tad more aggressive in the trade market...who knows

Dece
11-25-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't get paid millions to have my dedicated job be GM. I don't talent evaluate professionally. They do. They need to not make these mistakes, and they have to be held accountable when they do. I don't feel its hindsight because even as an amateur I thought those were bad moves, and they are proving to be so. As a professional? Do you have any idea how fast I would be fired to make mistakes on that level? It's their job to see Hibbert has a fragile ego and often vanishes. It's their job to see emerging talent. It's their job to be able to construct a timeline that benefits the Pacers, not players getting paid. They failed their job.

CableKC
11-25-2012, 04:19 PM
The fact that we missed out on bargain amnesty players in Scola and Brand as well as not being able to take advantage of the low ball market for Mayo and Kaman is the fault of our front office. It was simply poor time management in how the signed Hibbert and Hill and that is the job or Walsh and Pritchard. I will not believe that a conversation with Hibbert and Hill to explain to them that they'd get their money no matter what but could return to a more talented team if they waited a few more weeks wouldn't have worked.
Yes, it was a matter of poor timing that the Pacers missed out on Scola or Brand....but was it even known that Scola and Brand were going to hit the Amnesty market during the time that the Pacers were pursuing Free Agents?

In other words....was it known that Scola and Brand were going to become available via Amnesty but the Pacers still pursued Mahinmi, DJ and Green?

Pacerized
11-25-2012, 06:34 PM
Yes, it was a matter of poor timing that the Pacers missed out on Scola or Brand....but was it even known that Scola and Brand were going to hit the Amnesty market during the time that the Pacers were pursuing Free Agents?

In other words....was it known that Scola and Brand were going to become available via Amnesty but the Pacers still pursued Mahinmi, DJ and Green?

Yes, Brand was available and I think Dallas closed on him before we signed Hibbert and Hill.
Scola was Amnestied before we signed them as well but the bidding hadn't closed. All it would have taken was to move the signings back a few days. I don't care what the agents wanted, Walsh didn't have to cave. When you have cap space you wait to use it. The way we rushed to sign our own free agents was poor time management.

Mourning
11-25-2012, 06:48 PM
Yes, Brand was available and I think Dallas closed on him before we signed Hibbert and Hill.
Scola was Amnestied before we signed them as well but the bidding hadn't closed. All it would have taken was to move the signings back a few days. I don't care what the agents wanted, Walsh didn't have to cave. When you have cap space you wait to use it. The way we rushed to sign our own free agents was poor time management.

I was VERY surprised aswell that we rushed to an aggreement with Hill, the amount we paid him AND used our only 5th year contract on him. No, actually, I was very surprised and quite pissed off about it. I don't believe at all that the market for Hill was THAT good and I thought that contract was too rich, especially considering the 5th year inclusion and the discussions by management about a new contract with him earlier.

With regards to Hibbert I aggreed what management did and I still think they did the right thing.

Either way, yeah, pretty horrendous time management with regards to Hill and personally I would have preffered us to sign a decent impact player for the 2nd unit instead of spreading the remaining money on several bench players.

Btw am I happy that that deal that management tried to make with Charlotte didn't come through. We would have had Augustin for 2 years and no Tyler currently.

I really hope D.J. starts making a meaningfull presence on the court, but I dont like the body language I am seeing and much less the play. Samething with Ian, unfortunately. Hope he, Mahinmi, can show us what he did during pre-season.

BlueCollarColts
11-25-2012, 10:42 PM
just give the new guys a break, D.J. had his best game of the year last game, Ian had a decent game as well, we don't need Ian to do a lot of scoring, just rebound and play D. Gerald will be a good signing for us IMO. Just give him some time. A lot of you like to hate on his basketball IQ, so you should understand why it will take him some time to get used to the offense. They will be good signings, just wait.

Pacerized
11-25-2012, 11:34 PM
just give the new guys a break, D.J. had his best game of the year last game, Ian had a decent game as well, we don't need Ian to do a lot of scoring, just rebound and play D. Gerald will be a good signing for us IMO. Just give him some time. A lot of you like to hate on his basketball IQ, so you should understand why it will take him some time to get used to the offense. They will be good signings, just wait.

That's one good game for both DJ and Ian out of 14. I'd like to see them play well in 50% of their games before singing their praises. I guess that means playing a lot of good games for a while which based on past performance I don't have a lot of faith in.

Derek2k3
11-26-2012, 12:05 AM
MARSHON BROOKS

He's a player the Pacers should be looking at, and he's on a rookie contract playing behind Joe Johnson which means he's not getting much PT.

Brooks is actually very overrated. He's a shoot-only guard that isn't that efficient. Think Nick Young, IMO.


We don't have the cap flexibility to make many deals, and usually junk doesn't get you quality players. How is Hansbrough and Green or Lance a good package for former ROY Tyreke Evans?

I think this team is what it is. The only significant trades we could do will probably have to involve George, Granger, maybe West.

Well, I'd agree, except last season it was reported multiple times that the Kings were not re-signing Tyreke. He's likely available, and it wouldn't have to be a 1-1 trade. If they are planning on letting him go for nothing, they'll be more likely to do a deal more favorable to the other team.

spreedom
11-26-2012, 01:02 AM
Well, I'd agree, except last season it was reported multiple times that the Kings were not re-signing Tyreke. He's likely available, and it wouldn't have to be a 1-1 trade. If they are planning on letting him go for nothing, they'll be more likely to do a deal more favorable to the other team.

All that's really been decided in Sacramento is that Evans wasn't getting the contract extension over this past fall. He'll still be a restricted free agent this summer and they can match any deal he gets. I don't think they've closed the door on keeping him if the money is right.

RLeWorm
11-26-2012, 01:13 AM
we already have our Tyreke Evans but better...Lance Stephenson!

King Tuts Tomb
11-26-2012, 02:23 AM
Most of these names being tossed around of guys we "should" get are hilarious because people on this board would absolutely hate them if they were on our team.

Eleazar
11-26-2012, 09:28 AM
Most of these names being tossed around of guys we "should" get are hilarious because people on this board would absolutely hate them if they were on our team.

It is Green Grass Syndrome, where what you have is never as good or better than what others have.

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 11:56 AM
It is Green Grass Syndrome, where what you have is never as good or better than what others have.

You can repeat the "grass is greener on the other side bs" all you want but you know it and I know it that what the Pacers have is not as good or better than what many other teams have.

By the way to use the "grass is always greener on the other side" bs you at least need to have some grass in your side to at least compare it to other teams "grass", right now what the Pacers have is an empty lot full of weed with dog turd in top of it..... "grass is always greener syndrome" you guys are funny....

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Most of these names being tossed around of guys we "should" get are hilarious because people on this board would absolutely hate them if they were on our team.

Yep and hopefully next year they get another non name or another scrub so people don't hate him as much....

doctor-h
11-26-2012, 12:26 PM
I still do not understand the fascination with Mayo, unless you like players who don't try when they are coming off the bench.

Because he doesn't belong on the bench. He is a starter and better than any back court player we have. When he plays as a starter he is consistent. Nobody we have is consistent except for maybe West.

doctor-h
11-26-2012, 12:34 PM
we already have our Tyreke Evans but better...Lance Stephenson!

Are you kidding me. Lance is not in Evans league right now and won't be until the Pacers put the ball in his hands and let him do what he does best. Swap his and Hills roles and you might get some results. Hill is not a point, does not create or push the ball or pass the ball effectively and is way to lackadasial. He came out way too soft against Parker and got torched. Thats against a player he should know very well that he couldn't do that.

Sparhawk
11-26-2012, 12:42 PM
I was VERY surprised aswell that we rushed to an aggreement with Hill, the amount we paid him AND used our only 5th year contract on him. No, actually, I was very surprised and quite pissed off about it. I don't believe at all that the market for Hill was THAT good and I thought that contract was too rich, especially considering the 5th year inclusion and the discussions by management about a new contract with him earlier.

With regards to Hibbert I aggreed what management did and I still think they did the right thing.

Either way, yeah, pretty horrendous time management with regards to Hill and personally I would have preffered us to sign a decent impact player for the 2nd unit instead of spreading the remaining money on several bench players.

Btw am I happy that that deal that management tried to make with Charlotte didn't come through. We would have had Augustin for 2 years and no Tyler currently.

I really hope D.J. starts making a meaningfull presence on the court, but I dont like the body language I am seeing and much less the play. Samething with Ian, unfortunately. Hope he, Mahinmi, can show us what he did during pre-season.

So much this on Hibbs and Hill. I was pissed they just gave Hill a huuuuuuuuuge deal, but waited for the market to dictate Hibbert. Everyone and their grandmother knew Hibbert was going to get the max. However, there was no *****ing way that Hill would have. Look at Courtney Lee, he got well below what he was asking. No way Hill gets closed to $8M/yr. Why, cause he's an undersized sg that is playing point. I doubt there were many teams looking to pay top dollar for that.

And no one knew about Scola, but the thing that pisses me off, is that for a franchise like the Pacers that must to be cost conscience, why the hell don't you wait till after the deadline for amnesties to sign players? The Pacers should be targeting amnesty players. Some good players and they are cheap. You'd think that would be a no brainer! But not for this Pacers team. We'll just over pay big time to keep average talent. *sigh*

And I like Hill and Hibbert. I was fine with the Pacers matching Hibbert and I'm still fine. Big guys are overpaid, I know this. Hibbert is a very good defender, but limited on offense. I think his shooting numbers will improve. I don't expect him to put up 20ppg. I think 15-18ppg should be just fine. He also does so much for the community, which is difficult to put a number on.

The deal for Hill was just dumb. Love the guy and what he brings, but just a dumb dumb deal.

doctor-h
11-26-2012, 12:43 PM
Remember when free agency opened OJ Mayo and Courtney Lee were the 2 scorers off the bench the Pacers were linked to but both wanted starter money Lee around 8 mil and Mayo 10 and both according to sources seemed to have multi-team interest.

Once the Blazers reached an agreement with Hibbert and Hill agreed to his contract the Pacers did not have the money Mayo wanted to offer him. Mayo got the Suns offer which was in the 8 mil range. With the fear of not getting the scorer they wanted off the bench they reached out and signed Gerald Green for 3.5 mil per instead.

After the Mahinmi trade and the Augustin signing pushed the Pacers against the luxury tax is when the Mayo decision to sign for less in Dallas occured, the Pacers could not act at that point. In hindsight if the Pacers had known the market would dry up for Mayo and Lee they may have waited on signing Gerald Green. They acted to assure themselves of getting one of the 3 they had targeted in Green rather than getting no one.

They drug their feet just like they always do and hope something falls in their lap just like losers do. No young up and coming player is going to take Walsh seriously at his age. He can't relate to them, he is toast and has been for a long time. I don't want to hear that he brought Amare and Carmelo to NY that market did that. As soon as he was gone is when someone put the pieces around them to make them a good team. He relied on cheap youth and they brought in proven veterans who know how to get it done. He is trying the same thing here only we have no stars and nobody to carry the team.

MyFavMartin
11-26-2012, 12:50 PM
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000961051/iStockSpilledMilkB_xlarge.jpeg

Since86
11-26-2012, 12:56 PM
And no one knew about Scola, but the thing that pisses me off, is that for a franchise like the Pacers that must to be cost conscience, why the hell don't you wait till after the deadline for amnesties to sign players? The Pacers should be targeting amnesty players. Some good players and they are cheap. You'd think that would be a no brainer! But not for this Pacers team. We'll just over pay big time to keep average talent. *sigh*

You do realize that the Pacers could have placed a bid on Scola, right? The highest bidder (PHO) got Scola with their 10M bid. The Pacers could have bid 9.8M and lost. We don't know.

But because the Pacers didn't get him, the conventional wisdom is that they didn't even try.....

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 01:10 PM
You do realize that the Pacers could have placed a bid on Scola, right? The highest bidder (PHO) got Scola with their 10M bid. The Pacers could have bid 9.8M and lost. We don't know.

But because the Pacers didn't get him, the conventional wisdom is that they didn't even try.....

And once again you are wrong and you think you are right, Phoenix won the Scola bid by bidding 4.5mil or an "Ian Mahinmi", they also didn't even have the chance to bid on him or Brand because they decided to sign Hill and Hibbert.

Even Pritchard explained this on 1070 the fan by saying that they were keeping a close eye on those guys but at the end of the day the Hibbert/Hill signing was hours before so they were not able to even put a bid on any guy that was waived.

So yes the conventional wisdom is that they didn't try because they didn't try.

Since86
11-26-2012, 01:25 PM
And once again you are wrong and you think you are right, Phoenix won the Scola bid by bidding 4.5mil or an "Ian Mahinmi", they also didn't even have the chance to bid on him or Brand because they decided to sign Hill and Hibbert.

The Suns bid ended up costing them almost $14M when everything was said and done. That $4.5M is PER YEAR, not total. It would be nice if you could tell the difference, before you got on your soapbox.

Naptown_Seth
11-26-2012, 01:45 PM
:spitout: Ok that was damn funny.
But the problem is that the guy identifying the grass and the turds changes his mind based on whether the guy plays for the Pacers or not. That's my point.

I look forward to Mayo's next PED suspension. Just how many NBA players have been booted for PEDs, not pot (or Birdman's Meth)? Now I love Carlisle, but dang are these some staggering improvements...

First 4 years FG% - 43.8, 45.8, 40.7, 40.8
This year - 49.0

First 4 years 3P% - 38.4, 38.3, 36.4, 36.4
This year - 53.2

So Mayo shows remarkable consistency for 4 years, like clockwork almost, and suddenly his 3P% is up 15% points over his career average to a whopping 53? And this isn't a guy that was hurt, he only failed to play every game in year 2 and that was due to SUSPENSION.

In every other way Mayo has been dead on his career averages. Only his shooting is up, and way way up.

So in the grass is greener point I'm saying that a guy with some iffy history who NORMALLY shoots 43%/38% doesn't really help a team who already has guys that have put up the same numbers. And jumping on the 14 games of drastically improved output paired with joining a different coach with a history of making teams and players better doesn't really sell me on the idea that had Mayo been here we wouldn't be just as frustrated with 4-11 nights for 13 points.

Trader Joe
11-26-2012, 01:55 PM
I'm a little confused how PEDs could make your 3 point percentage go up. LOL

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 02:03 PM
But the problem is that the guy identifying the grass and the turds changes his mind based on whether the guy plays for the Pacers or not. That's my point.

You have no point and nope I'm not changing my mind.


I look forward to Mayo's next PED suspension. Just how many NBA players have been booted for PEDs, not pot (or Birdman's Meth)? Now I love Carlisle, but dang are these some staggering improvements...

First 4 years FG% - 43.8, 45.8, 40.7, 40.8
This year - 49.0

First 4 years 3P% - 38.4, 38.3, 36.4, 36.4
This year - 53.2

So Mayo shows remarkable consistency for 4 years, like clockwork almost, and suddenly his 3P% is up 15% points over his career average to a whopping 53? And this isn't a guy that was hurt, he failed to play in year 2 and that was due to SUSPENSION.

In every other way Mayo has been dead on his career averages. Only his shooting is up, and way way up.

So in the grass is greener point I'm saying that a guy with some iffy history who NORMALLY shoots 43%/38% doesn't really help a team who already has guys that have put up the same numbers. And jumping on the 14 games of drastically improved output paired with joining a different coach with a history of making teams and players better doesn't really sell me on the idea that had Mayo been here we wouldn't be just as frustrated with 4-11 nights for 13 points.


I'm not even sure if you are serious and if you are, you seriously need to stop using what you are using. :crazy:

Since86
11-26-2012, 02:18 PM
I'm a little confused how PEDs could make your 3 point percentage go up. LOL

Increase in eyesight for starters, if it has the effect that some say it has. But PEDs are used mostly for increased body function. Not being as tired in the fourth, so not leaving your shot short would help as well.

Not saying that it's the reason, but just saying that there are advantages for any athletic movement that can be helped by PEDs.

PG was shooting 60% from three last year for quite some time. Often players start out shooting well, and then slowly working their way back to their average.

Eleazar
11-26-2012, 02:18 PM
Because he doesn't belong on the bench. He is a starter and better than any back court player we have. When he plays as a starter he is consistent. Nobody we have is consistent except for maybe West.

Yet if he came here he would be coming off the bench if Danny was healthy. If a player feels that they should be starting, but not willing to put in the effort to prove it I don't want them on my team. If he has to be guaranteed a spot and no competition for it we are better off without him. Look at what happened the last time we had players with that kind of attitude. I would rather have Lance who is working his *** off to become a better player.

Rogco
11-26-2012, 02:20 PM
Are you kidding me. Lance is not in Evans league right now and won't be until the Pacers put the ball in his hands and let him do what he does best. Swap his and Hills roles and you might get some results. Hill is not a point, does not create or push the ball or pass the ball effectively and is way to lackadasial. He came out way too soft against Parker and got torched. Thats against a player he should know very well that he couldn't do that.

Did Tyreke Evans all of a sudden get good?? The guy is a mediocre PG on a bad team (worse than the Pacers for sure.) He get's very few assists, and has essentially declined in every aspect of his game every year. The only thing going for him is that he's the fastest player in the NBA, when he's driving his Mercedes-Benz S550.

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 02:20 PM
The Suns bid ended up costing them almost $14M when everything was said and done. That $4.5M is PER YEAR, not total. It would be nice if you could tell the difference, before you got on your soapbox.


Soapbox or whatever you want to call it is the true, I know that you like to exaggerate things, saying that Phoenix won the Scola bid for 10+ mil sounds better to your point than saying that they won the bid for 4.5 mil a year, in other words you are trying to change the numbers so the people that are making the point say "OK yeah 10+ mil is a lot" without knowing that is divided in 3 years.


But because the Pacers didn't get him, the conventional wisdom is that they didn't even try.....

And I'm going to post that last part of your post to tell you again that THE PACERS DID NOT TRY, so the conventional wisdom that they tried is bs and you know it.

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 02:23 PM
Yet if he came here he would be coming off the bench if Danny was healthy. If a player feels that they should be starting, but not willing to put in the effort to prove it I don't want them on my team. If he has to be guaranteed a spot and no competition for it we are better off without him. Look at what happened the last time we had players with that kind of attitude. I would rather have Lance who is working his *** off to become a better player.

Show me an article or a report were Mayo is saying that he only cares to start. I'll be here waiting.

Rogco
11-26-2012, 02:26 PM
vnzla81, it pains me to say I agree with you about anything, but I do about Scola.

Since86
11-26-2012, 02:30 PM
Soapbox or whatever you want to call it is the true, I know that you like to exaggerate things, saying that Phoenix won the Scola bid for 10+ mil sounds better to your point than saying that they won the bid for 4.5 mil a year, in other words you are trying to change the numbers so the people that are making the point say "OK yeah 10+ mil is a lot" without knowing that is divided in 3 years.

And here you were just days ago complaining about arguing semantics..... :laugh:

I thought you'd realize that the total bid was for the length of the total contract, without me needing to point it out. Next time I'll know not to confuse you.

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 02:36 PM
And here you were just days ago complaining about arguing semantics..... :laugh:

I thought you'd be smart enough to realize that the total bid was for the length of the total contract, without me needing to point it out. Next time I'll know not to confuse you.

It's not me who you are confusing, because I know what happened and I got to hear interview after interview from Pritchard telling us why they couldn't do anything, you are confusing the people that don't know how everything went down and the people that are asking questions.

You are misleading people by telling them that the bid was 10+ mil without explaining that is divided in 3 years and you are misleading people by telling them that the Pacers tried when everybody know they didn't.

Trader Joe
11-26-2012, 02:50 PM
Again, Vnzla, I understand you are a fan, but I don't understand why you WANT to be a fan of the Pacers. You think they intentionally mislead you and that they aren't actually interested in winning. So why root for them?

Since86
11-26-2012, 02:50 PM
You are misleading people by telling them that the bid was 10+ mil without explaining that is divided in 3 years and you are misleading people by telling them that the Pacers tried when everybody know they didn't.

You obviously need to reread what I said, because that aint it.

OlBlu
11-26-2012, 02:56 PM
Again, Vnzla, I understand you are a fan, but I don't understand why you WANT to be a fan of the Pacers. You think they intentionally mislead you and that they aren't actually interested in winning. So why root for them?

I feel that way about the Colts but not the Pacers. I think they do a good job of keeping the team competitive in a bad small market situation. Hell, they have to be pretty good just to keep the Pacers in Indy. I do think that Bird left because Simon was not willing to build a potential championship team (read, he won't spend the money)...... If I felt that management was lying to the fans, I would have a big problem but I don't think that is the case......:cool:

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 03:08 PM
Again, Vnzla, I understand you are a fan, but I don't understand why you WANT to be a fan of the Pacers. You think they intentionally mislead you and that they aren't actually interested in winning. So why root for them?

I don't think I'm the only one that feels that the Pacers mislead them, I believe Larry left because all this time he was told they were going to do whatever was possible for the Pacers to be a championship team and at the end of the day they decided not to get the type of players Larry thought he was going to get so he left.

Go back and listen to Larry's interviews from 5 years ago, the Pacers promised a lot of things, I even have a friend that asked me, "so where is the difference maker Larry Bird promise he was going to get few years ago"? and this friend doesn't even follow the NBA as much as I do.

BillS
11-26-2012, 03:19 PM
Go back and listen to Larry's interviews from 5 years ago, the Pacers promised a lot of things, I even have a friend that asked me, "so where is the difference maker Larry Bird promise he was going to get few years ago"? and this friend doesn't even follow the NBA as much as I do.

When push comes to shove, I don't think Larry Bird's strength was as a talent evaluator. He had problems with that while with the Celtics' front office and he made some rather interesting claims about players who didn't work out well here. That isn't to say I don't think he was successful here, it is to say that I think it is in spite of his rather large blind spots (in particular applying his own work ethic and hunger to win to players with potential and assuming they would do whatever it would take to get them to the next level).

I don't think ownership has said anything other than avoid the LT. I think it is a bit silly to say they won't spend money on the one hand and then see the salary figures on the other - it is more likely that LJB wanted some big chunk for a risky player and Simon simply wasn't convinced that the risk was worth it. Donnie/Pritchard may not have made any better moves than Bird would have, but I think they are in better position to convince Herb the money was safe with them. After this year, that may not be quite so true itself.

We'll see what really happened if the "keeping the seat warm for a year" statements come true.

Sparhawk
11-26-2012, 04:06 PM
When push comes to shove, I don't think Larry Bird's strength was as a talent evaluator. He had problems with that while with the Celtics' front office and he made some rather interesting claims about players who didn't work out well here. That isn't to say I don't think he was successful here, it is to say that I think it is in spite of his rather large blind spots (in particular applying his own work ethic and hunger to win to players with potential and assuming they would do whatever it would take to get them to the next level).

I don't think ownership has said anything other than avoid the LT. I think it is a bit silly to say they won't spend money on the one hand and then see the salary figures on the other - it is more likely that LJB wanted some big chunk for a risky player and Simon simply wasn't convinced that the risk was worth it. Donnie/Pritchard may not have made any better moves than Bird would have, but I think they are in better position to convince Herb the money was safe with them. After this year, that may not be quite so true itself.

We'll see what really happened if the "keeping the seat warm for a year" statements come true.

Larry certainly wasn't wrong about Lance. I think he is at least a decent eye for evaluating talent.

Eleazar
11-26-2012, 04:23 PM
Bird got better over the course of his time here, but he wasn't an exceptionally skilled at it though. Even with Lance I think the main reason he was there to be drafted had more to do with his immaturity issues. If he had a better head on him at the time he most likely would have been a late first rounder. I think it was more similar to how we drafted Granger. At the time most people considered him a top 10 talent, but people had knee concerns. By the time we got up to draft it was more about saying he is worth the risk at this position more than it was about finding the hidden gem no one else saw.

Ace E.Anderson
11-26-2012, 08:41 PM
Show me an article or a report were Mayo is saying that he only cares to start. I'll be here waiting.

He was still averaging double figures a playing solid defense as a 4th or 5th option on the floor

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 09:13 PM
He was still averaging double figures a playing solid defense as a 4th or 5th option on the floor

I'm still waiting for the article were Mayo said that he only cares to start, I believe that there is not such an article or comment and that is just bs made up by some people around here.


Here is an article I found on ESPN:


O.J. Mayo, who is expected to start at shooting guard, hopes to get a lot of the point guard minutes when Collison rests.

“It's going to take work,” Mayo said after signing his two-year contract that includes a player option for the second season. “Can I play the position John Stockton perfect? No. But I can get better at it. That's part of the reason why I wanted to get this contract out the way and get back in the gym and get to work.”

That last part doesn't sound to me like a guy that is not willing to put the work, or maybe he wants to get back to the gym so he can see how the PED's he is putting in his body are making him shoot better? :laugh:

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 09:25 PM
Here is an interview by Elton Brand were they asked him about Mayo:


Give me your early season thoughts on O.J. Mayo.


Elton Brand: He's a relentless worker. He's tireless. He's always in the gym, getting better. Shooting his shots, working on defense, actually. He watches a lot of film. He wants to be a great player. I think it's gonna continue once Dirk gets back. His job is going to be easier. O.J. will get even more wide-open shots. I don't see a letdown from him, at all. He takes pride in his game. With Dirk, and the guys coming back, he won't have to create those kind of tough shots that he's making right now.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-mavericks/headlines/20121115-elton-brand-o.j.-mayo-a-relentless-worker-he-wants-to-be-a-great-player.ece

3rdStrike
11-26-2012, 09:27 PM
I couldn't disagree w/ the OP more. Tyreke Evans? As in declining stats across the board every season, no real position to play Tyreke Evans? Umm, no thanks. I'd rather stick with Lance. Mayo has been shooting great so far, but let's see what happens when Dirk comes back (or at least by the All Star Break when we've got a significant sample size).

Eleazar
11-26-2012, 09:51 PM
Show me an article or a report were Mayo is saying that he only cares to start. I'll be here waiting.

Show me an article where any player has said that? That is like asking someone to show you an article of a politician telling people not to vote for him.

Is it possible he has changed sure, but history shows something different, unless you just think he went in a 2 year shooting slump when the Grizzles benched him. You also have to remember he is a starter in Dallas, not a bench player, so it doesn't really prove what I said to be wrong. It just proves that like many before him he knows the right things to say, and how to make a good first impression.

vnzla81
11-26-2012, 10:26 PM
Show me an article where any player has said that? That is like asking someone to show you an article of a politician telling people not to vote for him.

Is it possible he has changed sure, but history shows something different, unless you just think he went in a 2 year shooting slump when the Grizzles benched him. You also have to remember he is a starter in Dallas, not a bench player, so it doesn't really prove what I said to be wrong. It just proves that like many before him he knows the right things to say, and how to make a good first impression.

Thanks for making my point.

wintermute
11-27-2012, 05:21 AM
I look forward to Mayo's next PED suspension. Just how many NBA players have been booted for PEDs, not pot (or Birdman's Meth)? Now I love Carlisle, but dang are these some staggering improvements...


Nah, I don't think it's PEDs. Occam's Razor would simply suggest a hot streak, which isn't all that uncommon. And as you point out, it's just been 14 games.

If Mayo ends up the season shooting 50% from 3, I'll happily eat crow on this.

Trophy
11-27-2012, 01:47 PM
Mayo wanted to be a starter and it wasn't going to happen here. It's nothing against us. A handful of teams went after him in the offseason, but Dallas is where he'd play the biggest role.

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2012, 01:51 PM
Nah, I don't think it's PEDs. Occam's Razor would simply suggest a hot streak, which isn't all that uncommon. And as you point out, it's just been 14 games.

If Mayo ends up the season shooting 50% from 3, I'll happily eat crow on this.
I actually agree with this. The PED thing is just troubling from a general sense of character and smarts, given the low number of detections we see in the NBA.

But his shooting is stupidly high, the kind of improvement statistics say is virtually impossible. You just don't see guys gain that much in one year, especially after 4 of the most remarkably consistent seasons prior to that. Rationalizing his improvement as reasonable is like rationalizing why you are likely to win the lottery. Yes you COULD win, but statistics show that it just doesn't happen.

So why should the Pacers have bet on the most improbable player improvement in the history of the NBA? That's bad GM work, not "missing on him".


Mayo can get clear for shots, but his history suggests that the quality of those shots is nothing special which nullifies his ability to get them. I suspect that some of his improved FG% is from the type of positions Rick's offense puts him in...but mostly from just being in the middle of an early season burner.



And still fresh from his last PED cycle. :-p ;)

Ace E.Anderson
11-27-2012, 01:58 PM
Mayo wanted to be a starter and it wasn't going to happen here. It's nothing against us. A handful of teams went after him in the offseason, but Dallas is where he'd play the biggest role.

And it's really THAT simple!!!

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2012, 02:33 PM
That last part doesn't sound to me like a guy that is not willing to put the work, or maybe he wants to get back to the gym so he can see how the PED's he is putting in his body are making him shoot better?
Again, I don't think this is why he's shooting better, but I always ask the following when it comes to baseball PED usage:

"If they aren't helping then why do players continue to use them?"

Rashard Lewis was a 40% 3P guy who got busted for the same thing in fact.

Remember PEDs don't mean someone is lazy, and often it's quite the opposite. They work hard and simply want to see more results than they are getting with normal methods. When Mayo used them (and he did use them) he did it to get some advantage. What did he want to be able to do that he couldn't without them? Maybe not shooting touch, but strength (which can help a shot), stamina (helps late game shooting), quickness/burst (helps to get open or to the rim), or hops (helps to get clear for jumpers or to score inside).

See baseball players played this game with the old "PEDs don't help you see the ball better". Sure, but they DO help make your mistakes look better. The ground out is now a hot grounder that gets through. The line out now gets into the gap. And when you swing at a bad pitch you have the strength to adjust and still foul it off rather than striking out.

So not only do you see a HR increase, you also see all these bumps to the AVR, lower K rate, etc even though PEDs "don't help".

WhoLovesYaBaby?
11-27-2012, 02:43 PM
The Pacers had three runs at Mayo and came up blank all three times. The biggest miss was the failed trade of Josh Brick McRoberts for Mayo. The Pacers tried another trade after that then the FA attempt this last summer.

Time to move on. A West for Brooks proposal doesn't sound like a bad idea. The Pacers most likely will not be able to afford West for another two years, so why not get something for him? Of course trading West means that Ian, Hans, or Pendergraph has to start. That doesn't sound good.

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2012, 02:44 PM
One thing about 2 picks - Lance and Danny.

Both were taken with LOW COST picks relative to their risk/reward. Granger was seen by most as a top 10 talent that dropped due to knee injury fears. By #17 it was becoming silly that he was still on the board. This was NOT an evaluation of talent but an evaluation of risk (knee) vs reward (known talent level). The percentage of risk for a #17 pick was very low in comparison to the reward level.

Ditto Lance. By the 2nd round his draft spot was low enough to make the risk level (cost of pick * PCT for failure) much lower than the chances of positive upside. No one doubted Lance's talent level, the guy was nicknamed Born Ready. They doubted his mentality and how that might keep him from using his talent level.


Now I champion the idea of not overpaying, but that doesn't mean that when you get a great price it means you were a great talent evaluator.


A new Porsche that has a 20% chance of not working for the price of $5K? That's an obvious choice, not a sign of my car evaluation skills.


To me AJ Price, Hibbert and Paul George are the best "evaluation" picks they've made. They were taken at roughly the market value and selected from similarly valued players, most of whom have not been nearly as good as they have.

OlBlu
11-27-2012, 06:37 PM
The Pacers had three runs at Mayo and came up blank all three times. The biggest miss was the failed trade of Josh Brick McRoberts for Mayo. The Pacers tried another trade after that then the FA attempt this last summer.

Time to move on. A West for Brooks proposal doesn't sound like a bad idea. The Pacers most likely will not be able to afford West for another two years, so why not get something for him? Of course trading West means that Ian, Hans, or Pendergraph has to start. That doesn't sound good.


I enjoyed the "brick" reference. I have always called him McBrick and I thought he was the most overrated Pacer of all time....:cool:

CJ Jones
11-27-2012, 09:13 PM
At this point I'd take Josh over Tyler. I got to admit I was wrong there. We could use Josh's facilitating more than ever now.

aamcguy
11-27-2012, 10:41 PM
I enjoyed the "brick" reference. I have always called him McBrick and I thought he was the most overrated Pacer of all time....:cool:

I've seen numerous times that you thought he was the most overrated Pacer of all time. I don't really know how that figures, since what I remember of that time was a bunch of people happy that he was starting and also okay with the fact he was only playing 20ish minutes a night.

I looked up the season he played significant minutes for us, and the "brick" reference doesn't really apply. The guy shot over 54% from the field, 38% from 3, and 74% from the FT line. In fact, the only negative thing about him that season was he had 1.3 TO per game, which was a little bit high for 22 minutes a night. Bring up his lack of defensive awareness if you like, but we weren't getting anything better out of Hansbrough on that end that year.

docpaul
11-29-2012, 11:56 AM
I'd like them to start with things in their control. For example:

1) Lower our turnovers... hi Paul and Roy, we have some of the worst team TO #'s in the league

2) Improve FG%... hi Roy, you're 7'2" and you're shooting <38% for the year.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/shootingEfficiency/position/centers

3) Reduce opponent FGA (highest in the league)... this probably relates to our high TO #'s and the fact that we force very very few opponent turnovers (again, worst in the league)... We need more active hands and disruption of passing lanes.

4) Improve FT%... bottom 5 in league


http://www.indystar.com/article/20121129/SPORTS04/211290340/Pacers-notebook-Defense-rescues-Indiana-during-cold-first-half?odyssey=nav%7Chead



More time at the line
Vogel closed practice Wednesday, and each player had to shoot 100 free throws.


The Pacers were 17-of-27 from the foul line against the Lakers. Luckily for Indiana, the Lakers were 23-of-43.


Still, Vogel is worried about his team's problems from the free throw line. The Pacers are 26th in the league at 71.9 percent.


"Making free throws in all road situations is critical to establishing that road toughness and that .500 or better record on the road," Vogel said.


The Pacers likely will have a chance to get to the line often Friday at Sacramento: The Kings are second in the league in fouls at almost 24 a game.


Coach 'em up Vogel.

BillS
11-29-2012, 12:14 PM
Heh. Make 'em run bleacher laps for every FT they missed.

That's why I spent more practice time running bleacher laps than practicing back in 7th grade ... :kickcan: