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Peck
11-20-2012, 01:48 AM
Of course you have to be happy with a win; there can be no question about that. I mean for whatever reason I can’t let go of this playoff positioning (like I should) so to me we have got to start winning the majority of these games vs. the bottom feeders. Sadly there are plenty of nights where we are the bottom feeders.

But tonight was not one of them, for the most part.

Like I said I’m happy with the win but I am not happy with how we had to win it. I was about to strangle Frank when he let the bench let the Wizards go on an 18-2 run. I mean I know he wanted to rest the starters & frankly we can’t afford to do this very often but he just had to get them out of there.

Once again we had to rely on West to play hero ball to bail us out of another bad spot but in this case we let the Wizards get to much momentum and by that time the starters as a unit could barely tread water & by the end most of them were on fumes. This does not bode well for the next few games.

The bench is disgusting right now, there is just no other way to say it and honestly I think he is just going to have to give up on the 5 in 5 out thing. I know he tries to keep 1 or 2 starters in now but he may just have to scrap that and go with rotating in & out players 1 at a time. Not ideal for certain but right now the bench, in particular in this game, is just not together either on offense or defense.

Now don’t get me wrong on certain night’s elements of the bench work and individually you get some decent production but as a group they just don’t work, at least right now.

We just have a very small margin for error with our club and our starters just do not have the firepower to make a comeback vs. a good team & make no mistake if the Wizards were anything resembling a good team we would have went home tonight 0-2 on this particular road trip. Like I said happy with the win but let’s just say I’m not using this game to say we’ve turned the corner.

Short on time so we’re just going to do some quick grades.

David West: A+

He get’s the plus for actually blocking 4 shots. Ok that and totally placing the offensive load on his back & saving the game. He’s never going to be a great defender but on nights like tonight you just have to ride him to victory and this is the second time so far in the young year that he has ensured victory in what was looking like defeat.

Paul George: D+

His trade value will never be higher, just saying…

Roy Hibbert: A

Best game of the season so far for Roy and I guess home cooking and family visits and a very soft Wizards interior helped to cure some of what ills him. Now do this Friday vs. the Spurs and we’ll talk but I’ll just take tonight for what it’s worth & be happy that the results are what they are.

Lance Stephenson: B

For whatever reason Frank has a very short leash on Lance. He made a bad pass & a couple of fouls and he is done for the night. This just described Paul George’s season btw other than he gets to play through his mistakes. To be fair Sam Young was playing very well and I understand that they might be afraid that Lance will go full bore Rucker Park on them so I guess I understand. But the game is much more fun to watch when he plays than when he doesn’t.

George Hill: C-

I’m being generous here because his 2-11 field goal shooting was abysmal to say the least & going 0-6 from the three point line was particularly egregious but I will credit him for the made free throws. God knows anybody going 8-8 on our team from the line is cause for celebration. But unless they start working Lance as the backup point, which btw tonight during the first quarter (you know the one that we kicked their butts in) Lance was mostly running the point with George playing off the ball, then George better be ready to play big min. as our backup point guard is, well zombie about covers it.

Sam Young: B-

Stop shooting so many three’s. Hitting a corner three on occasion is great but let’s not get carried away here. 1-6 from the three point line was not what I had in mind when we signed him. Now solid defense & hustle, yes that I had in mind. Still can’t pass to save his life and I have no idea what Vogel uses him as the in bound passer. Lost in all of this though is that he also grabbed 8 rebounds. So basically Sam has played very well in 2 out of the last 3 games.

Tyler Hansbrough: C

Tyler was a victim tonight of having to be on the floor with that second unit and then having to not be able to come back in because we had to keep Roy & West rolling in the 4th. He did nothing bad when he was in but in all honesty he didn’t do anything great either.

Gerald Green: C-

I mean on the surface he shot well from the field for the most part but man there is just something about his game that does not translate into winning basketball. I was stunned when Quinn said that Gerald was not a player you should ever push the ball up to because he will get it up whether he has a shot or not. That’s kind of a damning statement considering I thought the whole point of him being there in the second unit was to push it and get up a shot. Also this wasn’t his strongest defensive outing either.

Ian Mahinmi: D

He needs to have “I’m Kevin Seraphin’s B!tch” tattooed on his arm or someplace. Just abysmal and poor Roy had to play till he couldn’t stand up straight because Frank had to bench the entire bench for the 4th. I mean at some point in time he is going to play a really good game and Pritchard will look sharp as a tack, but man waiting on that game is taxing. The sad thing is in pre-season he looked so good I thought he could easily be a 20+ a night min. man. I’m sure he’ll get there eventually but right now he is not there.

D.J. Augustin: D-

Hey at least he had a 1-1 assist to turnover ratio and not a negative ratio, there’s that at least. Right? I really wonder if he didn’t think he was going to start along side Hill when he came here? Surely he is not this bad, he has to be having an attitude issue. Don’t get me wrong I don’t want that either but I would almost prefer that to thinking this guy doesn’t belong on the floor.

At least we get a day of rest and some time to prepare for the Hornets. I am curious how we will respond.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VwvikYBN28E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

rexnom
11-20-2012, 02:13 AM
Why would his trade value never be higher? How about after he strings together some great games?

Peck
11-20-2012, 02:18 AM
Why would his trade value never be higher? How about after he strings together some great games?

I'm talking about in general to this year.

rexnom
11-20-2012, 03:24 AM
If we wanted to trade him, a package for Harden would have been ideal. Now? Only a David West trade makes sense.

D-BONE
11-20-2012, 04:59 AM
The primary approach this season on offense is going to be West & Hill hero ball with a little Roy thrown in here and there when he's not sucking.

I appreciate Lance, Young, and Tyler's hustle and enthusiasm, but when it's all said and done that's about all they'll bring on a regular basis. Not capable of taking the offensive load of the hero boys, but would be great second unit guys in an ideal scenario.

George, Green, and to a lesser degree Agustin are the wild cards. One or two of those guys emerges from their early season morass, then maybe the offense starts to improve a little. But right now it's hard to imagine any of them having the focus/mental toughness to undertake even a complementary offensive responsibility consistently.

pacersgroningen
11-20-2012, 07:18 AM
I think giving Ian a D is a bit too high. He was consistently lost on defense, no man to man defense, a lot of missed rotations. Butter fingers once again on offense, couldn't keep his balance when receiving the ball while establishing position. I thought it was sickening how bad he played last night...

We'll take the win, but we were playing the worst team in the NBA. By far. Let's do something against halfway decent competition.

Sparhawk
11-20-2012, 07:56 AM
I agree with rexnom. David West should be traded this season. The Pacers need to make a move or two (though I still think Vogel will get axed). This team hasn't responded through 12 games now. Still playing like crap.

It used to be that the Pacers played bad and win was a good thing. But not when they only play bad now.

I still think the 2nd unit will come along, but damn, what a disappointment the new guys have been so far.

Brad8888
11-20-2012, 08:15 AM
Shooting threes nearly destroyed the monster game by West and the very effective game that Roy put together. Danny is not on the floor, and won't be any time soon. At least the offense was more balanced due to the Wizards having little to counter our bigs with inside.

Change must happen. If not, much like the Soup Nazi denied Seinfeld, Playoff Nazi will say "No Playoff for you!"

RWB
11-20-2012, 08:47 AM
Nothing to add... just had to thank Peck for the Triumph video and hope the Pacers continue to Fight the Good Fight, Lay it on the Line, and Never Surrender. ;)

Pacer Fan
11-20-2012, 08:53 AM
So it took the starters extended minutes to close the game out, so they done their job and that's a bad thing? Finally, the starters done their job, of course it was the Wizards, but it is a step forward...I guess!

vnzla81
11-20-2012, 08:55 AM
If we wanted to trade him, a package for Harden would have been ideal. Now? Only a David West trade makes sense.

Yep West's value is never going to be this high, just show teams the tape from last night and ask for the moon to see what happens.

Pacerized
11-20-2012, 08:59 AM
I am happy with a win and I'm happy to finally see Roy have a good game. Last year this win would have made me happier, this year it's a little harder to be content with a win over the Wizards minus Wall and Nene. I can't let go of the fact that a few months ago we were needing to make the right moves with our hard earn cap space in the offseason to get one step closer to competing with Miami. Now that seems almost out of reach. I will never forgive Walsh and Pritchard for squandering that opportunity. Ian and DJ flat our suck. What did we have 10 mil in cap space and the best player we have to show for it is Sam Young.

vnzla81
11-20-2012, 09:05 AM
I'm talking about in general to this year.

I still don't get your reasoning, you want to trade the player that has the highest potential for some reason and yet you don't want to trade Danny and you get mad when people suggest trading him even right now with his knee issues and everything.

Nuntius
11-20-2012, 09:16 AM
I still don't get your reasoning, you want to trade the player that has the highest potential for some reason and yet you don't want to trade Danny and you get mad when people suggest trading him even right now with his knee issues and everything.

1) PG has a much higher trade value than DG (injured or not).

2) There's always the chance of PG never amounting to the player that DG is. It isn't sure that he will be able to realize his huge potential.

But let's all hope that PG realizes that potential for the sake of the Pacers :)

Since86
11-20-2012, 09:28 AM
I would like to see Roy/PG be the first rotations out, and then put them back in with the bench. DJ/PG/Young/Ian/Roy would be a good mixture IMHO.

The scoring just immediately bottoms out with the bench on the floor.

Naptown_Seth
11-20-2012, 09:57 AM
Sam Young: B-

Stop shooting so many threeís. Hitting a corner three on occasion is great but letís not get carried away here. 1-6 from the three point line was not what I had in mind when we signed him. Now solid defense & hustle, yes that I had in mind. Still canít pass to save his life and I have no idea what Vogel uses him as the in bound passer. Lost in all of this though is that he also grabbed 8 rebounds. So basically Sam has played very well in 2 out of the last 3 games.
Good lord, you've got to be kidding me. Okay, a guy that came in shooting 40% from 3 over the last 3 games took too many on a team that was featuring Lance as it's 3pt specialist a couple of games ago.

But how about the 19 times his awareness covered space on defense, rotated before a guy could get free, cut to the rim when a guy was looking to pass out of the double team or just got the F out of the way when a guy needed space.

Right now Sam Young is becoming a McKey-type, a guy that just does all the little glue things that makes things run smoother for the bigger stars. He's not going to be 16 a night and he might just be a token starter or closer because he fits a situation, but considering they got him for as close to 0 as you can spend in the NBA the dude is a homerun.

IMO he was 2nd only to West in winning that game for them. It wasn't him living off the stars feeding him easy shots or setting him up, it was him making off-ball reads that gave them those situations.

And while he will force passes that aren't really available, even that part of his game isn't about poor concentration but rather is akin to Luck seeing a play that's too risky but still tempting. But his awareness is through the roof, especially off the ball. It's dramatically higher than the other players, except perhaps West's offensive awareness.




This was by far Mahinmi's worst game. He looked utterly befuddled by the sport and showed no confidence in his ball handling. He has fallen off the last 2 games just as quickly as Roy figured things out last night (I realize the Wiz helped out on that quite a bit).

Augustin continues to be a mess, and he badly needs to start making some 3s or they are going to have to bench him totally. He's not really creating well and he's not keeping teams honest at any level above what AJ Price does, and at least Price tries to bust it on defense. His drop-off from the last 2 seasons in basically every way is just befuddling. Shouldn't a guy improve when surrounded by better talent? I hate to speculate but it's hard not to wonder if there is a case of "I should be a starter" pouting going on. Remember how all the starters loved how he delivered passes during pre-season, and the dude has proven to be a better 3pt shooter than this. Bizarre.



To me Mahinmi and Augustin are the reason they almost lost. But Green was solid and properly productive from the bench and Young was critical.



George Hill was the 3rd problem that put them at risk of losing, but he's had strong games prior to this so I took that as a bad night. Still his 0-6 from 3 was horrible, and more so considering how bad a couple of those misses were.




Look, it was a trap game and the Ian/DJ play was bad and Hill shot poorly, but otherwise they put a proper spanking on a bad team and for once looked to be somewhat in the realm of a good team beating a bad team. Given the last few weeks I'd consider 20 point leads in 2 of the last 3 games to be forward progress.

It's the Wiz so it's not like winning means things are fixed, but at least they looked capable of beating up on a team for long stretches of a game. Maybe they are only a few more weeks away from being back on track.

Ace E.Anderson
11-20-2012, 10:15 AM
1) PG has a much higher trade value than DG (injured or not).

2) There's always the chance of PG never amounting to the player that DG is. It isn't sure that he will be able to realize his huge potential.

But let's all hope that PG realizes that potential for the sake of the Pacers :)

At this point, Paul seems to have a chance at being the next Trevor Ariza as much as he has the chance to be the next Andre Iguodala. Either way, he's probably the ONLY player on the roster that could be traded for a very good scorer at this point. (Aside from David West maybe)

I like what Paul brings to the table, but we may never be able to get the best out of his ability by needing him to be a number 1 or number 2 scorer. It's un-beneficial for all involved.

Naptown_Seth
11-20-2012, 10:20 AM
I'm talking about in general to this year.
Overreaction expecting a 3rd year guy drafted 10th to instantly be a star, especially in light of the primary scoring star/all-star going out for 3-4 months unexpectedly. He's obviously pressing. Let him get into FEB/MAR and see where he's at then.


BTW, I wouldn't trade West either. I'll buy tickets to watch that guy play.

naptownmenace
11-20-2012, 10:30 AM
I think giving Ian a D is a bit too high. He was consistently lost on defense, no man to man defense, a lot of missed rotations. Butter fingers once again on offense, couldn't keep his balance when receiving the ball while establishing position. I thought it was sickening how bad he played last night...

We'll take the win, but we were playing the worst team in the NBA. By far. Let's do something against halfway decent competition.

It was an risking signing in the first place but paying this guy 4 million a year was a terrible mistake. He's in the same category as Solomon Jones, Johan Petro, and Sheldon Williams. Guys that look like they should be able to ball based on their size and athleticism but just a tad uncoordinated and lacking in good fundamentals to ever be more than a career journeyman.

Regarding this game. I'm just glad they won and although people keep saying David West should be traded to upgrade our team, I think he's been the best thing to happen to the Pacers the past couple years. He's the first and only All-Star caliber player to agree to sign with the Pacers in NBA Franchise history. Sure his value is high right now but what do you reasonably expect to get in return for him? I'm not interested in any lateral moves and I doubt we could even get a player of equal value.

vnzla81
11-20-2012, 10:36 AM
Young was good at times yesterday but he also made some stupid mistakes, how many and ones he gave away last night? 2? 3? the Wizards almost tie the game because of him, luckily for the Pacers the Wizards are just a horrible team.

Mahinmi was crap as always, Green think he is Kobe shooting anytime he gets the ball and DJ is just garbage.

MyFavMartin
11-20-2012, 11:45 AM
I just want to say that our offense is crap and I don't think it's the players. I think it's the coaching.

Our bigs are expected to establish low post position and hold it FOREVER while our wings/PG have trouble feeding the ball there.

WHY THE HECK AREN'T WE USING ON-BALL SCREENS AND OFF-BALL SCREENS?

Between Roy, DWest, and Tyler, all three are decent midrange shooters, so an on-ball screen near the wing can easily lead to pick-n-pops and pick-n-rolls. Double teams would lead to an open man or force the defense to rotate, again leading to an open man (on the weakside).

WHY AREN'T WE RUNNING PAUL GEORGE OR YOUNG/GERALD OFF MULTIPLE SCREENS LIKE REGGIE?

Giving them some space to operate while getting the ball and allowing them to either pull up for an open jumper or curl to the basket or force the defense to switch, leading to a small on a big, which can lead to easy baskets for Roy or DWest.

IT'S LIKE OUR GUYS DO NOT MOVE... EVER...

GHill dribbles up, wings on the wing standing there, bigs on the low blocks and they try to hold their spots. THIS IS AN OFFENSE? CAN WE NOT SET A PICK? WHEN WE DID LAST NIGHT, IT LED TO EASY BASKETS. WHAT'S OUR FREAKIN' PROBLEM? OUR BIGS SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO HOLD THEIR POSITION FOREVER. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS YOU'RE SHAQ, HOWARD, OR THE BLOB.

MyFavMartin
11-20-2012, 11:53 AM
PG picked up 2 fouls in the first 4 minutes of the game. He needs to be smarter, but one of those and the third, I didn't like the calls.

Why didn't we keep AJ?

Sparhawk
11-20-2012, 11:55 AM
I just want to say that our offense is crap and I don't think it's the players. I think it's the coaching.

Our bigs are expected to establish low post position and hold it FOREVER while our wings/PG have trouble feeding the ball there.

WHY THE HECK AREN'T WE USING ON-BALL SCREENS AND OFF-BALL SCREENS?

Between Roy, DWest, and Tyler, all three are decent midrange shooters, so an on-ball screen near the wing can easily lead to pick-n-pops and pick-n-rolls. Double teams would lead to an open man or force the defense to rotate, again leading to an open man (on the weakside).

WHY AREN'T WE RUNNING PAUL GEORGE OR YOUNG/GERALD OFF MULTIPLE SCREENS LIKE REGGIE?

Giving them some space to operate while getting the ball and allowing them to either pull up for an open jumper or curl to the basket or force the defense to switch, leading to a small on a big, which can lead to easy baskets for Roy or DWest.

IT'S LIKE OUR GUYS DO NOT MOVE... EVER...

GHill dribbles up, wings on the wing standing there, bigs on the low blocks and they try to hold their spots. THIS IS AN OFFENSE? CAN WE NOT SET A PICK? WHEN WE DID LAST NIGHT, IT LED TO EASY BASKETS. WHAT'S OUR FREAKIN' PROBLEM? OUR BIGS SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO HOLD THEIR POSITION FOREVER. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS YOU'RE SHAQ, HOWARD, OR THE BLOB.

I just want to add that I still don't think the Pacers defense is as good as the metrics say.

1. Don't force many TOs
2. Guys constantly watch the ball and not their man leading to offensive rebounds/easy buckets.
2a. Not boxing out properly
3. Our bigs miss assignments

I was at the game in Atlanta. The Hawks were constantly getting wide open shots outside, but they just didn't hit those shots (though they did in the 4th).

Also, it seems that the Pacers give up a lot of layups/close shots in half court sets. It's ridiculous. I'd like to see the stats on where the Pacers rank giving up points in the paint.

Now, the Pacers defense is good, but I just don't think it's great let alone elite.

Since86
11-20-2012, 12:01 PM
IT'S LIKE OUR GUYS DO NOT MOVE... EVER...

GHill dribbles up, wings on the wing standing there, bigs on the low blocks and they try to hold their spots. THIS IS AN OFFENSE? CAN WE NOT SET A PICK? WHEN WE DID LAST NIGHT, IT LED TO EASY BASKETS. WHAT'S OUR FREAKIN' PROBLEM? OUR BIGS SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO HOLD THEIR POSITION FOREVER. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS YOU'RE SHAQ, HOWARD, OR THE BLOB.


So when Frank is saying he wants constant ball movement and he's not happy with the lack of player movement, he's lying? If you're saying it's the system, and not the executive that bogs everything down, then Frank must really have a set of stones to purposefully draft a non-moving system, while complaining about it publically.

Something doesn't add up.

Peck
11-20-2012, 12:10 PM
I think giving Ian a D is a bit too high. He was consistently lost on defense, no man to man defense, a lot of missed rotations. Butter fingers once again on offense, couldn't keep his balance when receiving the ball while establishing position. I thought it was sickening how bad he played last night...

We'll take the win, but we were playing the worst team in the NBA. By far. Let's do something against halfway decent competition.

I just didn't want to give Seth an aneurysm, but yes I agree with you he was and has been atrocious.

repole
11-20-2012, 12:10 PM
Green think he is Kobe shooting anytime he gets the ball

His 18.5 usage percentage is below league average and the lowest of his career...

Ace E.Anderson
11-20-2012, 12:12 PM
I just want to add that I still don't think the Pacers defense is as good as the metrics say.

1. Don't force many TOs
2. Guys constantly watch the ball and not their man leading to offensive rebounds/easy buckets.
2a. Not boxing out properly
3. Our bigs miss assignments

I was at the game in Atlanta. The Hawks were constantly getting wide open shots outside, but they just didn't hit those shots (though they did in the 4th).

Also, it seems that the Pacers give up a lot of layups/close shots in half court sets. It's ridiculous. I'd like to see the stats on where the Pacers rank giving up points in the paint.

Now, the Pacers defense is good, but I just don't think it's great let alone elite.

I think the pacers defense is designed to give up mid range J's. For the most part we do a pretty good job of shutting down the lane. Teams are going to score inside, this is the NBA we can't stop EVERY LAYUP. But you don't give up as few points as we do without being able to consistently guard the lane. Most bigs this season have shot a below average percentage against the Pacers, including Tim Duncan.

Where our defense is susceptible is off the ball movement, where guys are running off screens for those spot up, mid range J opportunities. That's why Korver was able to get off in the game that you talked about. It's also why Ronnie Brewer was able to get free in the 3rd quarter last season. He was cutting off the ball for layups and duck in's. We do watch the ball toooo much, but our defense is pretty darn good. I'd say top 10 at least, and top 6 if we didn't have J Augustine playing zero defense on backup points.

Ace E.Anderson
11-20-2012, 12:14 PM
His 18.5 usage percentage is below league average and the lowest of his career...

When someone is supposed to be a 6th man who's primary objective is to score the ball off the bench, they should get a little bit of free reign to shoot the ball and look to score. THAT'S THEIR ROLE!

Derek2k3
11-20-2012, 12:14 PM
George Hill: C-

I’m being generous here because his 2-11 field goal shooting was abysmal to say the least & going 0-6 from the three point line was particularly egregious but I will credit him for the made free throws. God knows anybody going 8-8 on our team from the line is cause for celebration. But unless they start working Lance as the backup point, which btw tonight during the first quarter (you know the one that we kicked their butts in) Lance was mostly running the point with George playing off the ball, then George better be ready to play big min. as our backup point guard is, well zombie about covers it.

Tyler Hansbrough: C

Tyler was a victim tonight of having to be on the floor with that second unit and then having to not be able to come back in because we had to keep Roy & West rolling in the 4th. He did nothing bad when he was in but in all honesty he didn’t do anything great either.



Only two I really disagree with.

Hill didn't shoot well, but he was the reason the starters didn't get too stagnant. 2/11 is terrible, but at least 5 of those came late in the SC after he bailed West/George out.

Tyler actually hit a couple of huge buckets late in the fourth, and was extremely active on both ends. He'd get a solid B from me.

Here's what really, REALLY drives me nuts:

Our offense seems setup so you have a guard in one corner, forward in the other, Point bringing the ball up the side, then ALWAYS passing to the PF or C AT THE THREE POINT LINE AND RUNNING THE OFFENSE THROUGH THEM.

It's so stupid, West/Hibbert/Hans are always holding the ball at the top of the three point line looking to make a pass, which they usually do with about 9 seconds left on the clock. They need to let ballhandlers handle the ball, period. Unless you're looking to score, why would you want a player handling the ball so far out of range?

Peck
11-20-2012, 12:16 PM
I still don't get your reasoning, you want to trade the player that has the highest potential for some reason and yet you don't want to trade Danny and you get mad when people suggest trading him even right now with his knee issues and everything.

I've never gotten mad at people for suggesting trading Danny. I get disgusted when people were wanting us to move Danny so that Paul could move to his position and become maybe as good as Danny. Right now I wouldn't trade Danny's left knee pad for Paul George.

Paul is what Paul is which is fine, there is nothing wrong with that but I think I've seen enough of him now to know that he is not a franchise player or even a second tier franchise player like what Danny, Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson, etc. are.

He's a great complimentry player but right now that is not what we need, we need a player who can creat his own shot and score in traffic.

I am not suggesting giving him away & I would not even be willing to trade him for equal talent. I would agree to a package deal where he could be the center piece from us and maybe we could get someone to take Mahinmi's contract off of our hands with him.

vnzla81
11-20-2012, 12:44 PM
I've never gotten mad at people for suggesting trading Danny. I get disgusted when people were wanting us to move Danny so that Paul could move to his position and become maybe as good as Danny. Right now I wouldn't trade Danny's left knee pad for Paul George.

Paul is what Paul is which is fine, there is nothing wrong with that but I think I've seen enough of him now to know that he is not a franchise player or even a second tier franchise player like what Danny, Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson, etc. are.

He's a great complimentry player but right now that is not what we need, we need a player who can creat his own shot and score in traffic.

I am not suggesting giving him away & I would not even be willing to trade him for equal talent. I would agree to a package deal where he could be the center piece from us and maybe we could get someone to take Mahinmi's contract off of our hands with him.

And you keep missing the point of why many of us wanted to trade Danny for so long, not only because he was in decline but also because we expected the knee issues to get worse, I'm not even pretending to be "Miss Cleo" either, everybody and their grandma new that this was going to be an issue soon or later, the Pacers had a chance to trade him and they blew it, now all they have to show for is an expiring contract with a handicap symbol in top of it for next year.

I'm not in the "trade Danny so Paul George can become Kobe" bandwagon either, my expectations for Paul George(other than some reaction after games) has always been in the middle, he already is a pretty good player, 14 and 8 plus great D doesn't grow on trees, the guy is only 22 years old and is still getting better, it would be stupid for the Pacers to trade a young player like him that not only is giving you 14 and 8 and great D but also doesn't have health problems like Danny.

NBA players hit their primes at 25 to 28 years of age, again Paul George is only 22 years of age he still has some years left before we declare that "he is who he is going to be", I'm sorry Peck but I have a feeling that you are bitter against Paul because he is stealing your favorite player thunder and because people are choosing PG over him, I'm pretty sure 30 GM's would choose a 22 years old with potential over a guy that is almost 30 that has knee issues, nothing against Danny but that is the way the NBA is.




Note: I have a player in mind that can do the things you are asking(a player that can create his own shot and score in traffic) and his name is Monta Ellis, just imagine if the Pacers had traded Danny for him last year :)

repole
11-20-2012, 12:48 PM
When someone is supposed to be a 6th man who's primary objective is to score the ball off the bench, they should get a little bit of free reign to shoot the ball and look to score. THAT'S THEIR ROLE!

My concern is I don't really see any plays run for him. I'll keep saying it, but WHERE ARE THE POST UPS?! Guy was 16th (!!) in the NBA last year in post up efficiency, and has posted up exactly once this year.

MyFavMartin
11-20-2012, 12:56 PM
So when Frank is saying he wants constant ball movement and he's not happy with the lack of player movement, he's lying? If you're saying it's the system, and not the executive that bogs everything down, then Frank must really have a set of stones to purposefully draft a non-moving system, while complaining about it publically.

Something doesn't add up.


So why aren't we moving the ball?

Peck
11-20-2012, 12:58 PM
And you keep missing the point of why many of us wanted to trade Danny for so long, not only because he was in decline but also because we expected the knee issues to get worse, I'm not even pretending to be "Miss Cleo" either, everybody and their grandma new that this was going to be an issue soon or later, the Pacers had a chance to trade him and they blew it, now all they have to show for is an expiring contract with a handicap symbol in top of it for next year.

I'm not in the "trade Danny so Paul George can become Kobe" bandwagon either, my expectations for Paul George(other than some reaction after games) has always been in the middle, he already is a pretty good player, 14 and 8 plus great D doesn't grow on trees, the guy is only 22 years old and is still getting better, it would be stupid for the Pacers to trade a young player like him that not only is giving you 14 and 8 and great D but also doesn't have health problems like Danny.

NBA players hit their primes at 25 to 28 years of age, again Paul George is only 22 years of age he still has some years left before we declare that "he is who he is going to be", I'm sorry Peck but I have a feeling that you are bitter against Paul because he is stealing your favorite player thunder and because people are choosing PG over him, I'm pretty sure 30 GM's would choose a 22 years old with potential over a guy that is almost 30 that has knee issues, nothing against Danny but that is the way the NBA is.




Note: I have a player in mind that can do the things you are asking(a player that can create his own shot and score in traffic) and his name is Monta Ellis, just imagine if the Pacers had traded Danny for him last year :)

If anything I'm bitter that he is not stealing his thunder. I fully expected this season for him to take over and make it hard for me to even pretend to defend keeping Danny.

As it stands I no longer have to do that as even his most ardent supporters have all but gone in the wind with the idea of moving Danny along for him because so far he has been found wanting.

vnzla81
11-20-2012, 01:03 PM
If anything I'm bitter that he is not stealing his thunder. I fully expected this season for him to take over and make it hard for me to even pretend to defend keeping Danny.

As it stands I no longer have to do that as even his most ardent supporters have all but gone in the wind with the idea of moving Danny along for him because so far he has been found wanting.

I think Paul George is doing fine he is only 22 years of age, like I've been saying forever to me the problem is not Paul George but the Pacers front office, they missed on Mayo/Crawford and decided to go for the equivalent of Kareem Rush instead.

You sign either one of those guys and nobody would be even talking about how much they miss Danny(anybody but you of course ;))

Naptown_Seth
11-20-2012, 01:23 PM
Frank can want a moving system but be implementing plays that aren't really conducive to it, ie he could be simply wrong.

Every coach envisions open shots, dunks at the rim, etc. Same as in football. But then you find that the way a certain cut, screen, pick or whatever actually works isn't how you'd thought it would go. After all, there's a team across the floor from you that's also playing.


That's where I mentioned how Woodson had his guards moving over picks without the ball and then catching the "PnR" pass just after that, either from the big in a type of "giveNgo" or just as often as a pass from a 3rd player. This made their "PnR" have a higher speed because the guard had the advantage of running full-out without the ball, then catching and going into a single dribble before the shot or return pass to the roll.

So Frank has the high PnR standard dribble and then envisions a cut from the weakside to the lane behind it (made up example), but the way teams play the roll that passing lane to the cutter is denied. So you have movement but it's not working, period. The PnR isn't getting enough initial space for that off-ball movement to get you anything.


Plus to be honest A LOT of the off-ball cuts look improvised and often result in 2 guys trying to negotiate who goes where or even both going to the same space and ruining the flow. You have to move, but the move must be coordinated and have a specific achievable advantage to it that the team can make use of. Getting open in a spot where someone can't get you the ball is worthless.

Right now this is the playbook...EXCEPT COMING OUT OF TIMEOUTS where we see outstanding plays much of the time. And that suggests that Frank has a vision for plays (or someone in the huddle does) but doesn't have the general strategy sorted out to a functional system yet.

That gives me some hope.

Hicks
11-20-2012, 01:51 PM
So why aren't we moving the ball?

Because of the other team's defending the first pass we look to make and often digging in and daring us to shoot over the top, followed if not surpassed by our own players' poor ability to make good and/or quick decisions.

Since86
11-20-2012, 02:08 PM
When the first pass is denied, and the player holds the ball, that's not the design of the offense. If the pass isn't there, then they need to reverse the ball, or be aggressive and try to get the ball into the middle off of a drive.

The offensive system of holding the ball and staring at Roy while he jockey's for position, isn't the design. It's a byproduct of having players being undecisive on the next step.

If the criticism that it's Franks fault for not properly coaching them to understand what they're supposed to do, that's one thing. But the players aren't executing the way they're supposed to be executing. The offensive system in place doesn't matter, when the players resort to holding the ball and then throwing it away by trying to force a bad pass.

Frank has a lot of share in the problems, but we can't dump player issues on him, just because.

MyFavMartin
11-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Because of the other team's defending the first pass we look to make and often digging in and daring us to shoot over the top, followed if not surpassed by our own players' poor ability to make good and/or quick decisions.

So the mistake is fixable with coaching?

Nuntius
11-20-2012, 08:17 PM
He's in the same category as Solomon Jones, Johan Petro, and Sheldon Williams.

I disagree with this.

Ian is a lot better than Johan Petro. Petro is bad. He has only one saving grace. The 15 footer. Nothing else. Ian can grab some boards and defend. Also, Petro's hands and finishing are much, much worse. Just ask some Nets fans.

Shelden Williams is a good defender and not a bad rebounder for his size but he has no offensive game at all. Ian has a semblance of an offensive game even though he isn't showing them at the moment. Again, ask some Nets fans for confirmation.

About Solomon Jones I don't know. I didn't watch the NBA when he was a Pacers so I'm sure that you know Solo better than me.

Eleazar
11-20-2012, 08:30 PM
I disagree with this.

Ian is a lot better than Johan Petro. Petro is bad. He has only one saving grace. The 15 footer. Nothing else. Ian can grab some boards and defend. Also, Petro's hands and finishing are much, much worse. Just ask some Nets fans.

Shelden Williams is a good defender and not a bad rebounder for his size but he has no offensive game at all. Ian has a semblance of an offensive game even though he isn't showing them at the moment. Again, ask some Nets fans for confirmation.

About Solomon Jones I don't know. I didn't watch the NBA when he was a Pacers so I'm sure that you know Solo better than me.

Solomon was not even as good as Pendergraph.

vnzla81
11-20-2012, 08:39 PM
Solomon Jones was hated around here and the same people that hated him are the same people that love Ian, the only difference between Ian and Solomon is that Solo is not making 4mil a year for the next 4 years.

Nuntius
11-20-2012, 08:40 PM
Solomon Jones was hated around here and the same people that hated him are the same people that love Ian, the only difference between Ian and Solomon is that Solo is not making 4mil a year for the next 4 years.

I guess that I missed the part where anyone loves Ian :-p

Hicks
11-20-2012, 09:11 PM
So the mistake is fixable with coaching?

I would think that that implies the opposite, actually.

vnzla81
11-20-2012, 09:25 PM
I guess that I missed the part where anyone loves Ian :-p

Here is a video of him, yep same player different salary.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qKX6Ixr0BAc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pacerized
11-20-2012, 11:11 PM
Solomon Jones was hated around here and the same people that hated him are the same people that love Ian, the only difference between Ian and Solomon is that Solo is not making 4mil a year for the next 4 years.

I would say that they're similar in both being tall weak players. Neither are great at anything with Ian's lousy offense being a little better then Solo's. I think Solo was a better rebounder and even Solo defended the rim better then Ian who can't do so at all. I'd rather
have Solo with a minimum contract then Ian with his 4 year deal.

Nuntius
11-20-2012, 11:12 PM
Here is a video of him, yep same player different salary.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qKX6Ixr0BAc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thanks for the vid but I don't know if I'm seeing it. I don't see a jump shot there.

Nuntius
11-20-2012, 11:20 PM
I would say that they're similar in both being tall weak players. Neither are great at anything with Ian's lousy offense being a little better then Solo's. I think Solo was a better rebounder and even Solo defended the rim better then Ian who can't do so at all. I'd rather have Solo with a minimum contract then Ian with his 4 year deal.

Ian is not weak. He has quite some strength. Also, he has a semblance of an offensive game. He has a jumper and some post moves.

vnzla81
11-20-2012, 11:22 PM
Thanks for the vid but I don't know if I'm seeing it. I don't see a jump shot there.

Yep he had a similar jumper, same form and everything, he was only making a mil a year by the way.

Hicks
11-20-2012, 11:26 PM
How on Earth can anyone say Ian "can't [protect the rim] at all"?

Ace E.Anderson
11-21-2012, 09:14 AM
Ian is a pretty good, and active defender in the post and at the rim. And he does have that high post Jump shot from about 16 ft. The biggest problem right now is the second unit is trying to go to him TOO much in the post. He shouldn't be our second option offensively out there, it's setting him up to fail. We try to run the same sets with the 1st and 2nd unit, and the 2nd unit simply does NOT have the same personnel to do so.

With Green, DJ, Tyler, and Ian--he second unit should be a lot more wide open, helter skelter type of basketball. Don't force the ball down to Ian and have him try to make something out of nothing. It doesn't work.

As for the Solo comparisons, that guy has never been able to make an impact on any team whatsoever. Ian was a key bench piece on the Mavs championship team. He's bigger, stronger, and probably not as athletic (jumping wise) as Solo.

xIndyFan
11-21-2012, 10:45 AM
. . . Right now this is the playbook...EXCEPT COMING OUT OF TIMEOUTS where we see outstanding plays much of the time. And that suggests that Frank has a vision for plays (or someone in the huddle does) but doesn't have the general strategy sorted out to a functional system yet.

That gives me some hope.

Interesting. This same thing says to me that the players are good at executing a specific play when told to do a specific thing. But not so good at executing a general plan. More evidence of the youth/low BBIQ/lack of experience of the team in general. That is something that should fade as the season goes on and players get more things that are instinctive instead of having to be thought about.