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View Full Version : Odd Thoughts: Went to a Garden Party & got smacked



Peck
11-19-2012, 02:57 AM
Honestly I’m not trying to be a Frank Vogel apologist here & I think once again he deserves some blame for these losses.

But what is a coach supposed to do when players miss free throws, wide open shots & shots right at the rim? Yes he then is supposed to put people in who can do better, I present you with Ian Mahinmi & his glorious 0-6 from the field making Roy’s 30% from the field seem almost Moses Malone like.

We’re in trouble, there is just no other way to say it and I know nobody is going to want to hear this but in my mind it’s true.

The only way out of this is by getting our guys to start hitting some shots. Sounds easy doesn’t it, but this is akin right now to asking a parakeet to pilot the space shuttle.

There is going to be no trade that is going to be made to fix this, they are not going to fire the coach (yet but if the team quits on him they will) and while Danny Granger being healthy & returning would fix a lot of this well to paraphrase Rick Patino again “Danny Granger isn’t walking through that door”.

Our offense can be readjusted, tweaked or revamped and it will not matter if Roy Hibbert & David West are going to continuously miss either wide open or poorly defended shots within 10’ of the basket. If not a single guard or small forward can begin to come close to shooting a respectable field goal % from mid to long range on a nightly basis.

Again our defense is good enough normally although we aren’t getting as many turnovers as last season it seems and generally we do a decent job of rebounding (the Knicks today got to many offensive rebounds) but right now we are losing because we will have stretches where we will score 6 points in 10 min. or won’t hit a field goal for 5 min. or something.

Other than Tyler Hansbrough there is not a single player who night in and night out is bringing it & even then I would state that Tyler is just giving you what you always get out of him with slightly improved defensive skills so far this season.

I mean look I said at the forum party that I thought that the Knicks were going to be the second best team in the East this year & I changed that when I did my pre-season predictions but either way they are a very good team and Chandler did just win DPOY which a lot of people forget so he disrupts a lot of shots. Also honestly I thought the Pacers did ok through the first quarter but then they went on one of those streaks where they couldn’t score and then we never really close again.

Now if I have a fault with Frank it is this. He let’s runs go on to long before he takes a time out to break the momentum. He tends to let it run to double digits and by then he takes a timeout and usually it’s too late. But I understand he wants them to play through it however that is just not working right now.

I don’t like this anymore than anybody else but I think I have had to resign myself to knowing that the only thing that is going to change this is going to have to come from within & yes I understand that this may never occur & our season officially went to crap the day Danny Granger injured his knee.

Let’s do grades again shall we.

Paul George: B

At least he got to the free throw line and unlike other Pacers of recent actually hit his. I’m not impressed with his scoring today because I just never get happy when on occasion someone gets hot from three point land, to me that is fools gold. But I do acknowledge that I can’t be hypocritical either, he at least hit his shots for the most part from there so God knows we need any offense we can get. I think there is almost no hope of this guy ever being the type of player who can attack the basket drive it home & draw a foul so we’re just going to have to accept him for what he is. BTW, he did as well on Anthony as we could expect but he just wasn’t strong enough.

David West: B

Not exactly sure why we only went to him 10 times on offense but again today he missed a couple of the wide open variety so who knows what he would have done with more. He just could not guard Anthony at all, which is no shame as very few players can and a big lumbering four like David will have no chance at all. We really missed Danny’s defense today more than anything.

Roy Hibbert: F

Sorry Roy the 6 turnovers more than trumped the 2 blocked shots and 8 rebounds. Not to mention shooting 30% from the field again and being blocked by old man Camby is not really embarrassing until you realize that he came from behind to get that and Roy was not strong enough to put it through. It’s going to be a long winter folks

George Hill: D-

Love George normally but he just was not on his game today at all. Raymond Felton just did whatever he wanted to do & George did not provide any resistance at all.

Lance Stephenson: C

I’m giving Lance the benefit of the doubt here because he was home and this was his first time starting in the Garden & I think in the beginning he was pushing too much. Later I wanted to strangle him for being to unselfish. He drove the lane and had a decent look at a layup but dished it off to Roy who should have had an easier layup but instead threw it back to Lance who was under the basket who then threw it out to Paul for a three but was whistled dead because Roy was called for traveling. We blew at least two easy looks right there. Kidd is a crafty old veteran and yes he was playing some mind games with Lance and it worked.

Ian Mahinmi: F-

People keep telling me he is better than Lou and I keep wanting to believe them because of his size but then games like this occur and all I can say is maybe Lou wasn’t better but he certainly was a hell of a lot cheaper & he couldn’t have done any worse than this.

D.J. Augustin: F

Hick’s keeps calling him a walker & frankly right now I can’t think of anything that better describes him. Is there anybody any less interested than being on the court than he is? I know we can’t judge players just by body language but damn this guy just looks like he’d rather be back with the Bobcats (and comparing records right now who could blame him)

Sam Young: B

Hit your damn free throws and we could go a little higher. Other than that this is what you expected from Sam to start with and the fact that he is starting to hit from the field is a bonus. Solid defense but still God awful passing.

Gerald Green: C

Not a bad game, not a good game. Sadly though I have a feeling that this was not the description that management wanted when they signed him to that fat free agent contract.

I’m not going to grade the garbage time players you can assume that they each did what they had to do in garbage time.

Now before I go I want to address one thing with Augustin. He played 6:20 in a game where George Hill was actually stinking up the floor.

Is there now something between Augustin & Vogel or does Frank just see what the rest of us see & realize that he is a waste of space?

Off to Washington for what I fear may be one of the more embarrassing games of the year.

xtacy
11-19-2012, 03:51 AM
well said as always.

do dj and mahinmi even deserve to be in this league?

pathil275
11-19-2012, 07:22 AM
thanks to the pacers mahinmi will be in this league for some more years.
i mostly agree with the points below.

Eleazar
11-19-2012, 09:29 AM
It is amazing that a whole team can shoot so poorly all at the same time for such an extended amount of time.

Cousy47
11-19-2012, 10:13 AM
What grade did you give Tyler? Other? Kid plays his heart out, keeps balls alive, bangs bodies and never quits. We seem to never run a play for him or make any effort to get him the ball until the clock is running out and he's the only player getting open. Maybe some team in the league will make us an offer for him before the trade deadline.I would not be susprised if he leaves the NBA to coach somewhere after next year.

BillS
11-19-2012, 10:39 AM
Only was able to listen, not watch, but it sounded like they were executing on the floor just fine but missing every opportunity to score, including free throws.

Dunno what you do for that other than play through it. That's at least what we'd tell an individual player going through a slump.

PGisthefuture
11-19-2012, 11:24 AM
What grade did you give Tyler? Other? Kid plays his heart out, keeps balls alive, bangs bodies and never quits. We seem to never run a play for him or make any effort to get him the ball until the clock is running out and he's the only player getting open. Maybe some team in the league will make us an offer for him before the trade deadline.I would not be susprised if he leaves the NBA to coach somewhere after next year.

I'm sorry, but what?

indygeezer
11-19-2012, 11:30 AM
How about grading Vogel? I'd be interested.

Brad8888
11-19-2012, 11:35 AM
Energy matters. Pushing the tempo offensively while trying to maintain defensive pressure leads to fatigue. With fatigue comes a loss of lift on jumpers, as well as a degradation of the fine motor skills required to make free throws. Coaches at all levels have nearly universally had players shoot jumpers and free throws at the end of practices for this very reason.

Solution to this? Install an offense that more frequently relies on purposeful ball and player movement in the half court to conserve some energy, and which leads to more effective post feeds and more energy for hard cuts to the basket to generate higher quality shots and free throws. With more energy, both the shots and free throws should also go down, and the passes should have enough zip to not get picked off very often.

McKeyFan
11-19-2012, 11:37 AM
For the first time, in this game, I really noticed David West's deficiency both on defense and boxing out. Not that I wasn't aware of it, but for some reason it was glaring this time.

I also noticed a couple other times where the entire team failed to body up their man for the defensive rebound and a couple times where Paul George was ball watching and lost his man for the layup.

Several of our players have bad fundamentals.

Eleazar
11-19-2012, 11:45 AM
Only was able to listen, not watch, but it sounded like they were executing on the floor just fine but missing every opportunity to score, including free throws.

Dunno what you do for that other than play through it. That's at least what we'd tell an individual player going through a slump.

More or less this is it. Also despite the shooting %, the Knicks were a defensive mismatch which gave them some easy baskets.

On a positive note I believe it was said after the first quarter that was the least amount of points the Knicks have scored in a quarter this season, we then went on to hold them to 1 less point in the second and fourth quarters.

Pacer Fan
11-19-2012, 11:49 AM
Ian is much better then Lou. He is new to this team and this team sucks not because of him. If the team was playing better with consistency, then be would learn the team better. If Hibbert was playing well then Ian would not be so dependant by fans. We just want Ian and Green to wow us back into a lead, instead of them maintaining as what they are suppose to do. Yes, 0-6 is not good fg, but everyone can have a bad shooting night. The starters aren't doing their job, how can new guys do theirs under this crappy play.

Just expecting to much from Ian and Green, I think.

xtacy
11-19-2012, 11:51 AM
Just expecting to much from Ian and Green, I think.

trust me i expect little from ian and he even fails that.

Justin Tyme
11-19-2012, 11:52 AM
well said as always.

do dj and mahinmi even deserve to be in this league?


Apparently, Walsh thinks so.

I still feel there is more to Mahinmi, but if not Walsh gave him a 4 year GUARANTEED contract. It wasn't that I felt Mahinmi was a terrible player, it was b/c Walsh gave him a guaranteed contract that I was so upset with the trade. If Mahinmi is no better than what we/ve seen then get use to watching that for the next 4 years.

Gerald Green should never have been given a full guaranteed contract either. I said this when Walsh gave him the contract, and this comes from someone who was happy to see green signed.

Eleazar
11-19-2012, 12:11 PM
Apparently, Walsh thinks so.

I still feel there is more to Mahinmi, but if not Walsh gave him a 4 year GUARANTEED contract. It wasn't that I felt Mahinmi was a terrible player, it was b/c Walsh gave him a guaranteed contract that I was so upset with the trade. If Mahinmi is no better than what we/ve seen then get use to watching that for the next 4 years.

Gerald Green should never have been given a full guaranteed contract either. I said this when Walsh gave him the contract, and this comes from someone who was happy to see green signed.

Are guaranteed contracts abnormal for 2nd string players not on a rookie contract?

Hicks
11-19-2012, 12:11 PM
Only was able to listen, not watch, but it sounded like they were executing on the floor just fine but missing every opportunity to score, including free throws.

Dunno what you do for that other than play through it. That's at least what we'd tell an individual player going through a slump.

Watching the game on TV, I think they regressed from the Dallas game with regards to how quickly they initiated the offense and the amount of player/ball movement.

Eleazar
11-19-2012, 12:14 PM
Watching the game on TV, I think they regressed from the Dallas game with regards to how quickly they initiated the offense and the amount of player/ball movement.

True, but overall they still were getting good shots. They just weren't making them. Even all of Mahinmi's shots were good shots that he had been making all year until yesterday.

vnzla81
11-19-2012, 12:22 PM
True, but overall they still were getting good shots. They just weren't making them. Even all of Mahinmi's shots were good shots that he had been making all year until yesterday.

I'm not sure if you can call a Mahinmi open shot a "good shot" he is open for a reason.

billbradley
11-19-2012, 12:28 PM
I'm not sure if you can call a Mahinmi open shot a "good shot" he is open for a reason.

He's has looked good with that shot. Great rotation.

I'll just say I wasn't discouraged by the Knicks game. Other games really got to me (or all the other games) but I think that one was really was just a poor shooting night.

Hill, West and Mahinmi were missing shots I think they will knock down most of the season. Hopefully it's all in the shooting slump.

Justin Tyme
11-19-2012, 12:40 PM
Are guaranteed contracts abnormal for 2nd string players not on a rookie contract?


Apparently not for the Pacers. Both should have rec'd contracts only guaranteeing the 1st 2 years with the other years as a Team Option. That gives the Pacers the option of only being stuck for 2 years if the player doesn't pan out. If they produce, you just pick up the Team Options. Why give 2nd string players who haven't proved themselves in the NBA fully guaranteed contracts? It's ridiculous to do so.

If neither would accept a partial guaranteed contract, you move on and find someone else. Their value isn't that overwhelming great. They aren't starters they are bench players hoping someone will sign them to a contract to play next year.

Cousy47
11-19-2012, 12:42 PM
Yeah, I think I got a little carried away. I actually think Hans enjoys playing in the NBA. A lot of stress on him this summer with his Mom's problems and his standing in NC. But he seems to hae come back focused and his defense has been much better. Hope he stays around here and gets better.

Naptown_Seth
11-19-2012, 05:40 PM
well said as always.

do dj and mahinmi even deserve to be in this league?

Give me a break. DJ has been awful, but Mahinmi hasn't. I think Peck is overreacting to the offensive end because Ian was still challenging shots. And most nights he's shown a BETTER mid-range jumper than Haslem who is the classic PF with a jumper type. Ian has good range and the NYK game is about the only one where he wasn't hitting it.

Ian just needs a bit more comfort going to the rim and in the post and he'll be fine.

Also he's only taken 5 or 6 shots in 3 games, and the other two were the first game (2-5) and the Dallas game (3-6). He goes 0-6 with 4 shots in the lane (ie, wasn't chucking jumpers) and drops his average from 47% to 39% and it's "should he even be in the league".

Meanwhile Tyler is going on his 3rd of 4 seasons shooting below 43% (he's at 42.6 right now), but Ian is the one blowing it for everyone. Sheesh.

BTW, the non-scrub bench shot 6-9 except for Mahinmi. Sam Young is at .575 the last 3 games and Green is 44% but 53% adjusted for 3. These guys are nowhere close to being out there "blowing it" and they have nothing to do with the dropoff from last year to this.


1) Plays
2) Granger
3) Roy's slump
4) DJ is awful compared to DC/Hill off the bench last year - but mostly offset by the improved play of Lance

Paul is not filling the Granger scoring load, but he's on par with what he delivered last year. Ditto Hill and West.




I also noticed a couple other times where the entire team failed to body up their man for the defensive rebound and a couple times where Paul George was ball watching and lost his man for the layup.
It was fun to watch Sam Young literally defend JR Smith for about 17 seconds straight, force him into a horrible shot and then have the Knicks easily get the rebound. Had to be a kick to the groin for Sam.

Naptown_Seth
11-19-2012, 05:59 PM
I'm not sure if you can call a Mahinmi open shot a "good shot" he is open for a reason.
You badly need to subscribe to Synergy because your ability to remember any shot Ian has taken more than 5 minutes ago is shot to hell.

He has taken 38 shots. Here's the list of shots taken outside the lane.

1-1 Charlotte
1-2 San Antonio
0-1 Minny
2-3 Washington
1-2 Toronto
1-1 Millwaukee
2-5 Dallas

So coming into the Knicks game the brilliant Vnzla strategy is to look at a guy shooting 53% on mid-range jumpers, a guy taking 4 of them every 36 minutes which amounts to about 40% of his total attempts and saying "yeah, leave that dude open cause he sucks".

For perspective that's about the same as saying that Hill, Young, Lance or Paul should be left open at the 3pt arc because they take 4 of those every 36 and hit them at an adjusted rate of 55-60% (3 points per FGM instead of 2).


The sound you hear is the last of my respect for your analysis of the team falling to its death.

Naptown_Seth
11-19-2012, 06:06 PM
He's has looked good with that shot. Great rotation.

I'll just say I wasn't discouraged by the Knicks game. Other games really got to me (or all the other games) but I think that one was really was just a poor shooting night.

Hill, West and Mahinmi were missing shots I think they will knock down most of the season. Hopefully it's all in the shooting slump.
I agree though I'm more worried than you, but there were a lot of flat shots too. To me the main thing is that a lot of shots aren't really coming in rhythm. Ian missed a couple that he can hit, but other than that only Roy was really missing stuff I expect him to make and only about half his attempts were high quality.

West actually went 6-10 and was 3-4 in both the 1st and 3rd. And the team still shot better than the Knicks did, people are really overlooking that fact.

One bad stat was the 16 TOs by the starters, and that was a pretty shared load of fail. Roy's 6 is pretty ugly though.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
11-19-2012, 06:06 PM
The funny thing about that game is that when the Pacers made their run in the 3rd/4th quarter, they looked like they should. But they couldn't sustain, and NYK was simply better.

For a while there they were passing, defending, and rebounding. They even made more shots than they missed. It lasted until they got to within 7 pts or so. Then it was back to Hansbrough throwing up a wild shot. One pass and a 3 point attempt. And throwing the ball away several possessions in a row. Ball handling is pathetic at times.


And for the ill advised person who says Augustin and Mahinmi shouldn't be in the league, get some facts before you say that. Mahinmi is doing twice what the sainted Lou did. And Augustin, well maybe you have a point. But at least he isn't trying to make shots.

vnzla81
11-19-2012, 06:17 PM
You badly need to subscribe to Synergy because your ability to remember any shot Ian has taken more than 5 minutes ago is shot to hell.

He has taken 38 shots. Here's the list of shots taken outside the lane.

1-1 Charlotte
1-2 San Antonio
0-1 Minny
2-3 Washington
1-2 Toronto
1-1 Millwaukee
2-5 Dallas

So coming into the Knicks game the brilliant Vnzla strategy is to look at a guy shooting 53% on mid-range jumpers, a guy taking 4 of them every 36 minutes which amounts to about 40% of his total attempts and saying "yeah, leave that dude open cause he sucks".

For perspective that's about the same as saying that Hill, Young, Lance or Paul should be left open at the 3pt arc because they take 4 of those every 36 and hit them at an adjusted rate of 55-60% (3 points per FGM instead of 2).


The sound you hear is the last of my respect for your analysis of the team falling to its death.


If Sinergy is what is telling you that Mcbob is the next Lamar Odom, that Blair is the next Rodman, that Ian is playing well, that Green can replace Danny "just fine" and that "Green and young have been more positive than negative" I rather not waste money on that website then, thanks for the recommendation though.

indygeezer
11-19-2012, 08:14 PM
Are guaranteed contracts abnormal for 2nd string players not on a rookie contract?

Austin Croshere

(who actually was a fav of mine, but many around here hated because of the contract DW gave him).

Pacer Fan
11-20-2012, 09:41 AM
trust me i expect little from ian and he even fails that.

Then trust Ian, he will be a pleasant surprise to you since you think so very little of him. I bet you watched him play next to none before he came here. Yet, you have this perception of how he sucks as an NBA player...hmmm