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View Full Version : What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong



Revikan
11-18-2012, 04:27 PM
For one, I'm a diehard pacer fan. With that said, I think the two main problems is George Hill and Roy Hibbert. For one, I was NEVER impressed with George Hill as a point guard last year. Hes a wonderful combo guard but not a legit starting point guard. The main problem now is, we over paid for him, and now we are stuck with him.

Next is Roy Hibbert, he is 7'2 and he can't dominated. I want to see him get the ball deep and just simply dunk over his man. He never does this, he is too weak. Is Hibbert a bad player? No hes just overpaid for what little he does. He looks good against bad players, but when he goes up against a duncan, chandler, or noah he cant do anything. He is too soft and is too easily pushed off.

They should have let George Hill walk, he wanted too much money. They couldnt do that because they wasted a 1st round pick on him, so they overpay for a combo guard. Was Collison the answer? Probably not but hes a better point guard.

I think their only chance right now is let DJA start, and move hill to 2, and PG to the 3, until granger is back. Turn up the tempo a bit and get some fast breaks going between dja, hill, and george. Then in the half court sets, feed the ball to west/hibbert and when they double team find the freaking open guy.

Once granger is back, they are better off starting DJA instead of hill, HE IS NOT A LEGIT POINT GUARD. I have yet to witness him run the fast break and get an assist. Hell I'd rather witness lance starting than Hill

BlueNGold
11-18-2012, 04:42 PM
The problem is our offense...good, consistent shooting specifically. When you lose Granger and replace Collison, Barbosa and DJones...you lose a lot of shooting ability and need to make that up. The problem is, the Pacers have not replaced it and we are paying for it in spades.

DJ Augustin is killing us. He's not only a poor defender he's not producing on offense. He averaged double figures and seemed like a good player. But his performance has been lacking and he is nothing close to the offensive threat Collison was. I am very, very unimpressed by Augustin.

yoadknux
11-18-2012, 04:57 PM
Hill isn't a good point guard and I thought we overpaid him big time but he isn't too bad this season. It's Hibbert who really disappoints me, though then again we knew what we were getting when we gave him that contract

ColeTheMole
11-18-2012, 04:58 PM
George Hill is one of the few players I've been happy with this year.

owl
11-18-2012, 04:59 PM
The problem is our offense...good, consistent shooting specifically. When you lose Granger and replace Collison, Barbosa and DJones...you lose a lot of shooting ability and need to make that up. The problem is, the Pacers have not replaced it and we are paying for it in spades.

DJ Augustin is killing us. He's not only a poor defender he's not producing on offense. He averaged double figures and seemed like a good player. But his performance has been lacking and he is nothing close to the offensive threat Collison was. I am very, very unimpressed by Augustin.

I would like to see B Hansbrough given a shot.

Miller_time04
11-18-2012, 05:06 PM
I would like to see B Hansbrough given a shot.

Laughable.

xIndyFan
11-18-2012, 05:08 PM
George Hill is one of the few players I've been happy with this year.

yeah, me too. More and more the $40M looks like a good investment.

Now I'm not totally sure, but it appeared to me the Knicks were sagging into the paint big time. And the guys on the perimeter were just not hitting their shots. Now maybe I'm wrong, would not be surprised :laugh:, but that's my take on things. The fastest way to fix things is for Paul George and Lance to hit shots. Plus Melo is just too big for Paul to guard.

Goyle
11-18-2012, 05:18 PM
Laughable.

DJ's play has been laughable. I'm all for experimenting with lineups, Ben playing over DJ is something I'd want to see way before we see DJ promoted to the starting lineup.

MillerTime
11-18-2012, 05:51 PM
Hill isn't a good point guard and I thought we overpaid him big time but he isn't too bad this season. It's Hibbert who really disappoints me, though then again we knew what we were getting when we gave him that contract

Its funny, no one was saying this last year when he took the starting job over collison

D-BONE
11-18-2012, 06:03 PM
Don't forget our "genius" trade/FA signings. But, I agree Hill is not a point and DJ is a bad one. Don't give a damn if Hibbert is a 7 foot C, he's no way worth what he got right now. I am praying he rebounds from this over the remainder of the season. Otherwise say it with me, "A-L-B-A-T-R-O-S-S"! Coaching has to be under the microscope as well.

mrknowname
11-18-2012, 06:04 PM
Hill would be good in a triangle type offense. I haven't been impressed with his pick and roll ability tbh. We need a two guard who can handle the ball and make plays for teammates (i'm not sure lance is that guy yet)

Hibbert is being paid like he's a number 1 guy, but he's really 4th or 5th guy on a contender. he's just not efficient enough

D-BONE
11-18-2012, 06:19 PM
Personally, I'd love to have hill at 2. Yeah, he's a little short, but he does have nice playmaking skills for a sg. He might actually shoot better (although never a shaprshooter I suspect) without the drain of the pg responsibilities.

OlBlu
11-18-2012, 06:28 PM
The problem is our offense...good, consistent shooting specifically. When you lose Granger and replace Collison, Barbosa and DJones...you lose a lot of shooting ability and need to make that up. The problem is, the Pacers have not replaced it and we are paying for it in spades.

DJ Augustin is killing us. He's not only a poor defender he's not producing on offense. He averaged double figures and seemed like a good player. But his performance has been lacking and he is nothing close to the offensive threat Collison was. I am very, very unimpressed by Augustin.

Why do you think Charlotte allowed him to leave. I saw where fans said he was not what the stats said he was and we would be sorry we added him....:cool:

Naptown_Seth
11-18-2012, 06:53 PM
DJ's play has been laughable. I'm all for experimenting with lineups, Ben playing over DJ is something I'd want to see way before we see DJ promoted to the starting lineup.

I thought the point was Ben over Hill, which is laughable. Ben vs DJ, at least the way DJ is playing and shooting, that's in the park of reasonable. However as much as I like Ben's game, I still think it's a bit of an overreach to think of him as a legit 15 mpg 2nd string PG. He's a gamer but he's not loaded with NBA level talent. Maybe if he had a dead-eye outside shot.



The primary problem is 28m getting the team some solid inside defense and nothing else. Roy has just got to get out of his funk, esp with Danny out. Paul was obviously not ready, which isn't really a surprise.

However for all the "we changed the offense one morning before a game" talk, that's the item that's laughable. I mean I'm all for Vogel trying to fix things, but it's is NOT REALISTIC to think the team will just instantly fix everything before a game.

The solutions will take weeks. The talent is there but the connections have them aimed squarely at a lottery pick.

Naptown_Seth
11-18-2012, 07:00 PM
I also laugh at the blame on the bench. Young was the big goat, then comes in and shows that he's part of the solution. His defensive awareness has been a highlight the last 2 games. He covers up a lot of mistakes by others simply on awareness.

Mahinmi wasn't great today, but he's already looking better than Lou and appears to have more room to grow. His thing is confidence and awareness because he's big, fast and strong.

Green hasn't been the big scorer the last few games but his athletic ability has done wonders on defense and rebounds. He stops things that would otherwise be easy scores with plays that go unnoticed.



The issue isn't them because West, Roy, Hill and Hibbert are struggling just as much. Hill's getting by on guts and an ability to drive in transition. The problem is when/where they are getting each other the ball.



Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.

BlueNGold
11-18-2012, 07:09 PM
Why do you think Charlotte allowed him to leave. I saw where fans said he was not what the stats said he was and we would be sorry we added him....:cool:

I've seen him play and I thought he would be better. I didn't expect him to be as good as George Hill, but I didn't realize he wasn't better than AJ Price. Augustin makes TJ Ford look like a superstar.

vnzla81
11-18-2012, 07:16 PM
I also laugh at the blame on the bench. Young was the big goat, then comes in and shows that he's part of the solution. His defensive awareness has been a highlight the last 2 games. He covers up a lot of mistakes by others simply on awareness.

Mahinmi wasn't great today, but he's already looking better than Lou and appears to have more room to grow. His thing is confidence and awareness because he's big, fast and strong.

Green hasn't been the big scorer the last few games but his athletic ability has done wonders on defense and rebounds. He stops things that would otherwise be easy scores with plays that go unnoticed.



The issue isn't them because West, Roy, Hill and Hibbert are struggling just as much. Hill's getting by on guts and an ability to drive in transition. The problem is when/where they are getting each other the ball.



Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.

One of the bench benches in the NBA hands down.

Sookie
11-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Its funny, no one was saying this last year when he took the starting job over collison

I was.

I've always maintained that he's not a PG.

This is coming from a person who really likes Hill for what he is too.

MvPlumlee
11-18-2012, 07:22 PM
We will be allright once we get that creating SG, Barbosa type of player only this time starter material.

And a bit more freedom for some of our players wouldn't hurt either. Augustin in particular.

sportfireman
11-18-2012, 07:23 PM
what's wrong...... what's wrong is we suck...

Sookie
11-18-2012, 07:30 PM
I also laugh at the blame on the bench. Young was the big goat, then comes in and shows that he's part of the solution. His defensive awareness has been a highlight the last 2 games. He covers up a lot of mistakes by others simply on awareness.

Mahinmi wasn't great today, but he's already looking better than Lou and appears to have more room to grow. His thing is confidence and awareness because he's big, fast and strong.

Green hasn't been the big scorer the last few games but his athletic ability has done wonders on defense and rebounds. He stops things that would otherwise be easy scores with plays that go unnoticed.



The issue isn't them because West, Roy, Hill and Hibbert are struggling just as much. Hill's getting by on guts and an ability to drive in transition. The problem is when/where they are getting each other the ball.



Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.

Sorry, not buying it. DJ is a downgrade from DC and AJ. Green is a downgrade from Barbosa (and Certainly from Hill when we played him at the backup 2). Although I like Young (a lot, actually), I'd rather have Dahntay. And Lou and Ian are pretty much a wash. If Hans and Lance hadn't improved it would be scary. Perhaps part of it is chemistry hasn't been developed. But that's only part.

It's not all their fault. Granger isn't playing, Hibbert is essentially not playing. PG hasn't taken over as the star. West is still West. And Hill is Hill playing out of position. Our collective team IQ isn't too high. The Pacers Struggle to pass, shoot, and box out.

Now, Indiana usually gets beat by New York anyway. And all teams go through spurts of crap. and I'll be honest and say that I think Danny would fix a lot of the problems. (Particularly the mental side of what's going on.) Because not only is his shooting and toughness desperately needed because this team can't shoot and isn't mentally tough, but that will take the focus of defense off of Roy and PG. Which can only help them.

I don't know what to do with this team. Speeding up the game sounds like a good idea, considering the team's handicaps. But when you can't pass and you can't rebound, and your Bigs are slow and slower..that's not exactly a primary option. Anything else and execution is going to be an issue..with no real point guard..poor passing/movement/ball movement. Vogel's simple inside outside offense is probably the best approach honestly, we just have to be able to shoot in order to fix it.

But yes..at least they can play defense.

LoneGranger33
11-18-2012, 07:34 PM
I was.

I've always maintained that he's not a PG.

This is coming from a person who really likes Hill for what he is too.

I'll second this. I was still beating the drum for Collison during the last ten games of last season - I think he got a raw deal, and I still think George Hill received more credit than he deserved for those wins (all against sub-.500 teams, if I recall correctly). I think we overpaid him for sure.

All that said, I can't place much blame on him for this 4-7 start. Our offense is all-around ******. My concern is that when/if we fix it, it will require a better facilitator than Hill to succeed.

speakout4
11-18-2012, 07:40 PM
Roy just can't maintain his position. His balance is poor and smaller guys can push him off balance so he doesn't make plays.

I'm ok with Hill. We need lance.

D-BONE
11-18-2012, 07:42 PM
Hill, Young, Tyler, West, Lance.

Start those guys until PG & Roy decide they want to play. That's our best lineup right now.

The bench is not better. It's not even equal right now. Maybe with some longer-term development Mahinmi will turn into something, but right now he's an inconsistent, often out of control foul machine.

And I don't deny everyone is sucking, they are. The problem is defense only gets you so far. Even with Granger back, still don't have the consistent shooting threat or the player capable of breaking down D off the dribble to score or create for others. Still don't have a legit starting-caliber point guard.

Despite Bird's greatness, Walsh as the scapegoat, or Pritch's slap or lack there of, this team has failed to acquire the necessary skill sets and level of player(s) to complement what they've got . I think this will go down as the issue. Even with a healthy Granger, there's no guarantee of more than 45 wins and maybe advancing as far as last year best case.

Derek2k3
11-18-2012, 07:43 PM
Next is Roy Hibbert, he is 7'2 and he can't dominated. I want to see him get the ball deep and just simply dunk over his man. He never does this, he is too weak. Is Hibbert a bad player? No hes just overpaid for what little he does. He looks good against bad players, but when he goes up against a duncan, chandler, or noah he cant do anything. He is too soft and is too easily pushed off.


It isn't that he can't dominate, it's that he's been the worst player on the court more often than not. His slump has been unbelievably bad, both offensively and defensively.

Once he gets it figured out he'll be fine, but he's absolutely been useless on the court this season. It's semi-acceptable for him to be shooting 45% if he's staying involved defensively, but this season he's more like 30% and really not making an impact, unless you count the negative impact.

When you're not getting any production out of a member of your starting 5, and another is out hurt, you're gonna have a bad time.

Naptown_Seth
11-18-2012, 07:45 PM
Sookie, I don't see how you could want DJones back after seeing that Dallas game. He was awful, and we got to see one of his classic moves where he goes overly physical for no good reason and then wonders what the call was about (when he literally grabbed and threw Tyler down). Green and Young have much better defensive footwork than Jones and are good at staying in front of people. Jones was living on rep and the chair pull. If DJones wasn't hitting 3s last year people would have been sick of him.


Augustine without a doubt has been a disaster, but it's not like Collison didn't struggle against Hill. DC is a case of grass is greener. Yes he's better now than DJ is, but Mahinmi is also better than Lou and at the end of the year they can let Augustine walk.

I mean the Pacers have one good win and it was against a team featuring Collison at point.


Let's see DC put up nice numbers at the point with Roy playing like he is plus Danny out. We know what Hill can do with Roy and Danny because we saw it last year. It's not like this is Hill's first chance.


And Collison still lets guys leave him on defense just about as badly as Augustine.

DC was okay, but he was just a smaller, less physical and defensive version of Hill. DC has never been a great court vision passer and still isn't. And Dallas isn't exactly kicking everyone's butt. Their schedule has been pretty soft so far, at least for the wins.

Naptown_Seth
11-18-2012, 07:50 PM
Roy hasn't been awful on defense. He's been a mix of strong and awful, averaging out to okay or maybe even slightly helpful. But on offense he's actually a problem. If Mahinmi could get things together you'd almost expect Roy to have to go to the bench.

I like Roy and want him to succeed, but this start is exactly why people like me were in those debate threads saying that the signing of Roy was very risky. There were so many people that acted like letting Roy go would be a big mistake, but the fact is that it was always a tough call.

And by the way, I fully expect Roy to come out of this at some point and just go on a 3 week tear where a bunch of people pop up saying "See, I told you". That's Roy, some great, some terrible, a little overpaid due to his only above average sum total on the year (by the end of this season I mean).

graphic-er
11-19-2012, 12:21 AM
I think getting Danny Granger back will put this starting unit right back where they were last year. The squad did not change. Only they way defenses approach us. Once we get our major perimeter threat back, defenses will not get to choose who they want to cheat off of and double team at will.

AesopRockOn
11-19-2012, 12:40 AM
For those saying that we need to make a change with the backup point guard set up, we did in the second half of today's game.

McKeyFan
11-19-2012, 10:43 AM
What's wrong?

Our three most highly touted players led the team in plus minus:

West: -17
Hibbert: -16
PGeorge: -14

Forget subs. Forget backup point guards. Forget the coach. These three guys need to stop sucking.

Eleazar
11-19-2012, 11:06 AM
What's wrong?

Our three most highly touted players led the team in plus minus:

West: -17
Hibbert: -16
PGeorge: -14

Forget subs. Forget backup point guards. Forget the coach. These three guys need to stop sucking.

George and West played 10 more minutes than Hibbert, and both most likely played every minute that Hibbert played. So most likely West and George were closer to net zero's, and it was Hibbert that was the problem. You also have Mahinmi who had a worse per minute +/- than Hibbert. Then again I could make a thousand different false arguments using +/-. That is the flaw of the stat, unless it is an outlier (i.e. relatively high or low compared to everyone else) it really is not a useful stat for an individual because it is too team based to give you an accurate summary of how an individual played.

Since86
11-19-2012, 11:26 AM
What's wrong?

Our three most highly touted players led the team in plus minus:

West: -17
Hibbert: -16
PGeorge: -14

Forget subs. Forget backup point guards. Forget the coach. These three guys need to stop sucking.

I wonder if since it was the starters fault for how badly the bench played last year, if it's now the benches fault for how bad the starters are playing.

Ace E.Anderson
11-19-2012, 11:31 AM
yeah, me too. More and more the $40M looks like a good investment.

Now I'm not totally sure, but it appeared to me the Knicks were sagging into the paint big time. And the guys on the perimeter were just not hitting their shots. Now maybe I'm wrong, would not be surprised :laugh:, but that's my take on things. The fastest way to fix things is for Paul George and Lance to hit shots. Plus Melo is just too big for Paul to guard.

14, 4 and 6 are good numbers for a PG. And he's off to a slow shooting start. If he gets closer to his career averages, he could easily average 16, 4 and 6.

Ace E.Anderson
11-19-2012, 11:49 AM
For those saying we need a better "facilitator" within our offense, how can you facilitate when guys are missing wide open J's and layups? There is no magic formula for entering a "pass first PG" (even though only about 8 exist in the league anymore) when we cant hit any shots. Having a guy that only looks to pass to other players, WILL NOT help because our players aren't consistent enough shooters/scorers at this point.

Also unless you have a Kobe or Lebron (and even if you do) in today's NBA your starting PG needs to your starting PG needs to be able to SCORE the ball whether its while having size and shooting ability, or extreme speed and quickness, they need to be able to be a major threat offensively. Yes you have the rare Rondo, CP3, Dwill. But aside from those all-star PG's-- most PG's today are scorers first and facilitators second.

Though Hill is coming off a bad game, he has easily been one of the few bright spots this season. If we replaced him with this magical pass first PG who looked to run the offense, we would simply have a bigger, less crappy version of DJ--a guy trying to get everyone involved but can't because nobody can hit a damn shot.

Our offensive problems are simple--we can't shoot/score consistently enough. It's not because of our PG. It's because we, as a team, shoot 38% pretty much every game. When we are shooting well (see Mavs game) we look good. When we don't then we look bad. It's pretty simple

repole
11-19-2012, 11:57 AM
We're shooting poorly, and that's compounding the issue, but we're not getting great looks either. Yeah guys are missing some open jumpshots, but there haven't been enough open jumpshots either.

A lot of guys on this team are in roles they don't belong in at this point because of Granger's absence as well. George shouldn't be handling the ball. He's a fine third option, but he can't create consistently with the ball in his hands. Neither can Green or Young, and Hill is far from ideal in that regard either.

McKeyFan
11-19-2012, 12:59 PM
For those saying we need a better "facilitator" within our offense, how can you facilitate when guys are missing wide open J's and layups? There is no magic formula for entering a "pass first PG" (even though only about 8 exist in the league anymore) when we cant hit any shots. Having a guy that only looks to pass to other players, WILL NOT help because our players aren't consistent enough shooters/scorers at this point.

Also unless you have a Kobe or Lebron (and even if you do) in today's NBA your starting PG needs to your starting PG needs to be able to SCORE the ball whether its while having size and shooting ability, or extreme speed and quickness, they need to be able to be a major threat offensively. Yes you have the rare Rondo, CP3, Dwill. But aside from those all-star PG's-- most PG's today are scorers first and facilitators second.

Though Hill is coming off a bad game, he has easily been one of the few bright spots this season. If we replaced him with this magical pass first PG who looked to run the offense, we would simply have a bigger, less crappy version of DJ--a guy trying to get everyone involved but can't because nobody can hit a damn shot.

Our offensive problems are simple--we can't shoot/score consistently enough. It's not because of our PG. It's because we, as a team, shoot 38% pretty much every game. When we are shooting well (see Mavs game) we look good. When we don't then we look bad. It's pretty simple
There are multiple problems right now.

First, no one is hitting shots.

Even if they were, we're not getting that many good looks. In my opinion, most of the good looks take place when Lance makes things happen. But, even when he does, guys aren't making the shot. Vogel needs to keep putting Lance in the mix to get guys good shots, and then they need to start hitting them.

(Lance did not have a good game yesterday, granted. New York jitters, maybe?)

MikeDC
11-19-2012, 01:23 PM
What's wrong:
1. Mediocre PG play. Cause: George Hill isn't really a PG and DJ Augustin has played terrible. Solution: Either Augustin gets better or they figure out a trade.
2. Poor SG play. Cause: Their best SG is busy playing PG. Solution: Same as problem 1. With a better PG, you move Hill back to SG.
3. Poor SF play. Cause: Their best SF just found out he has a possibly degenerative knee condition. Solution: None really. Wait 3 months, get by with PG and hope Danny is fixed when he gets back.
4. Mediocre PF play. Cause: West is the last man standing, so he's getting that much more focus from defenses, and he's not good enough to carry a team on his back.
5. Terrible C play. Cause: Roy Hibbert's head mostly, with supporting issues cause by poor PG play and lack of shooting. Solution: Get Hibbert's head into the game. To some extent, solving problem 1 might help a bit too.

So basically, the way I see it, the Pacers have one problem they can potentially solve on their own. If they could land a better PG, they could shift Hill to the 2 and be in much better shape.

Unfortunately, I don't see how the Pacers can fix Hibbert's head or Danny's knee. They pretty much just have to hope they get better. But if those three things happen (better PG, Roy getting his **** together, Granger getting healthy) I would still feel pretty good about a new PG, Hill, Granger, West, Hibbert team with Paul, Lance, Young, Green, Tyler and Mahinmi as the backups. I'd probably give up any of those backups except Paul George to get a good PG option, but I think my whole argument falls apart when I consider that there aren't many good PG options available that I can think of trading for. So...

xIndyFan
11-19-2012, 01:33 PM
. . . Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.

This seems to be the thing that keeps getting overlooked. And the surest indication that things are not as bad as it appears. This reminds me so much of the early 2000's Detroit Pistons. Could defend like crazy, but just couldn't score. Scoring is much easier to find that defense.

Justin Tyme
11-19-2012, 01:58 PM
but I think my whole argument falls apart when I consider that there aren't many good PG options available that I can think of trading for. So...


JARRETT JACK.

9.2/3.2/4.2... 51% FG... 45% 3pt... 88% FT

This is as a reserve b/u PG.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
11-19-2012, 02:01 PM
Most everyone wants to jump on Hibbert. And, true some small part of it is his issue. He's missing shots, that can't be denied. But he is also not getting the ball or not getting it at the right time.

The offense is not running well. Hill may be having good individual games, but he is not running the offense. Collison was the PG on this team. And while I see why they traded him for a reliable backup big man, I wish they hadn't.

What's wrong with the team? The offense is not running the way it did last year. The last two games have been better. Even the loss to NYK they showed some improvement. They have the possibility of a barely over .500 team without Granger if they get it together.

Personally, I think West is trade-able if things don't turn around.

MikeDC
11-19-2012, 02:02 PM
JARRETT JACK.

9.2/3.2/4.2... 51% FG... 45% 3pt... 88% FT

This is as a reserve b/u PG.

Yeah... he's about a zillion times better than DJ from what I can tell. I'd take him back and be thankful for it at this point.

clownskull
11-19-2012, 02:24 PM
i don't think dj augustine has shown anything this year to suggest he belongs in the nba let alone starting. he really has been a disaster like seth said.
he has been the biggest disappointment of all the new pickups this year (at least in my book)

BillS
11-19-2012, 02:25 PM
I think it may be missed that we are defending at an even higher level than last year. Despite the problems we had fighting through screens against the Knicks, no one this year has been stymied by screens the way DC was.

Was the possible loss in offense worth the trade-off? I don't know, but since defense is still being criticized when it is #1 in the league I think offense is sorely underrated by more than just the front office.

Trophy
11-19-2012, 02:38 PM
The team has shot itself in the foot multiple times this season. I wouldn't say they suck. They're much better than what they've done so far. The motivation and desire simply isn't there.

Of course no Danny is a major detriment, but honestly, he's not LeBron. This team would pride itself on being a team, but too many guys look like they're trying to do way too much to fill in his "leader" spot.

No one is moving around offensively and it's leading to terrible shots.

There's no reason for this horrible start.

Eleazar
11-19-2012, 02:49 PM
I think it may be missed that we are defending at an even higher level than last year. Despite the problems we had fighting through screens against the Knicks, no one this year has been stymied by screens the way DC was.

Was the possible loss in offense worth the trade-off? I don't know, but since defense is still being criticized when it is #1 in the league I think offense is sorely underrated by more than just the front office.

Losing DC is not why 3/4ths of last years starters are shooting at least 5% worse than last season, and the other 1/4th is shooting worse also.

BobbyMac
11-19-2012, 03:00 PM
IMHO we are getting good (not great) shots and missing them. If we start hitting jumpers the inside will open up for West and Hibbert.

Justin Tyme
11-19-2012, 03:03 PM
No ball or player movement. Standing behind the arch to shoot a 3 just ain't cutt'n it. Shooting 20 3 ptrs with little ball or player movement isn't the way to win even with good "D". That should be pretty obvious by now to the FO, the coach, and the players.

duke dynamite
11-19-2012, 03:07 PM
This is what is wrong...


http://youtu.be/vQArDMKdSVc

Since86
11-19-2012, 03:19 PM
Most everyone wants to jump on Hibbert. And, true some small part of it is his issue. He's missing shots, that can't be denied. But he is also not getting the ball or not getting it at the right time.

That doesn't explain why Roy is playing so badly, when those criticisms were present last season.

Derek2k3
11-19-2012, 03:27 PM
That doesn't explain why Roy is playing so badly, when those criticisms were present last season.

And I really don't get why people keep going to the "Roy isn't getting the ball where he needs it" argument.

Against Milwaukee Larry Sanders (!) was able to keep Roy at about 20'. The whole time he was in. 20'. Then, when Roy would get the ball, he'd either turn it over by trying some complex dribble drive, or take a wild running hook shot.

It's going to be hard for the team to work on getting your 7' center the ball when he's not getting good position, or doing positive things with the ball once he gets it.

I'd say:

#1 - Roy needs to work on getting early position.

#2 - Roy needs to work on protecting his position.

#3 - The guards need to ensure that Roy gets the ball as soon as he has that position.

#4 - Roy needs to work on decision making from the post. When to force a shot/pass/work the defender. It seems he rarely makes the "right" decision when he gets the ball down low, often settling for a heavily contested shot, or holding the ball for 7+ seconds and passing with 4 on the shot clock.

Thing is, when it rains it pours. Once Roy gets it figured out, this whole team will look much, much better. I truly believe he will be the catalyst for change with this team.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
11-19-2012, 04:58 PM
And I really don't get why people keep going to the "Roy isn't getting the ball where he needs it" argument.

Against Milwaukee Larry Sanders (!) was able to keep Roy at about 20'. The whole time he was in. 20'. Then, when Roy would get the ball, he'd either turn it over by trying some complex dribble drive, or take a wild running hook shot.

It's going to be hard for the team to work on getting your 7' center the ball when he's not getting good position, or doing positive things with the ball once he gets it.

I'd say:

#1 - Roy needs to work on getting early position.

#2 - Roy needs to work on protecting his position.

#3 - The guards need to ensure that Roy gets the ball as soon as he has that position.

#4 - Roy needs to work on decision making from the post. When to force a shot/pass/work the defender. It seems he rarely makes the "right" decision when he gets the ball down low, often settling for a heavily contested shot, or holding the ball for 7+ seconds and passing with 4 on the shot clock.

Thing is, when it rains it pours. Once Roy gets it figured out, this whole team will look much, much better. I truly believe he will be the catalyst for change with this team.

Perhaps I understated.

NO ONE is getting the ball where and when needed. No Roy is not playing well. But neither is most anyone else. Hill and Augustin are tasked with running the offense and they aren't. The rest of them aren't playing the passing offense which is what brought success last year.

West and Stephenson are playing like it's the last year of their contract because it is. Isn't that interesting?

Is it the coaching staff? Or the players?

But blaming it all on Hibbert is short sighted.

PacerDude
11-19-2012, 05:14 PM
I would like to see B Hansbrough shot.Isn't that being a little harsh ??

HC
11-19-2012, 06:01 PM
Laughable.

Totally, because all the other point guards on the roster have been on a tear.

BlueNGold
11-19-2012, 07:39 PM
I think I really do know what's wrong. We don't get to play the Wizards every game.