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vnzla81
11-16-2012, 09:16 PM
About time they get a win, let's hope they build some confidence from here.



Man watching JOB and Murphy again made me :puke:




Go Pacers :dance:

DaveP63
11-16-2012, 09:18 PM
Wow. What a huge turnaround!

boombaby1987
11-16-2012, 09:19 PM
I feel like Sunday is huge.

boombaby1987
11-16-2012, 09:19 PM
15,110 not bad attendance either.

PaceBalls
11-16-2012, 09:19 PM
That sure felt good. I only wish Troy Murphy could have played more minutes.

Trophy
11-16-2012, 09:19 PM
That's Indiana Pacers basketball!

Blue Collar. Gold Swagger.

:gopacers:

PacersandIU
11-16-2012, 09:20 PM
Good win... caught most of the second half, so maybe I missed some things. From my perspective, it looked like Paul George and Hibbert were still having a rough go...

After watching this though, I could tell that chemistry is just taking time to build with the pretty much overhauled bench. Guys aren't sure of each other yet-- at least that's how it seemed to me. Great win (even without Dirk)... as vnzla said, I hope they build on it...

aamcguy
11-16-2012, 09:20 PM
Anybody else miss watching Collison try to defend bigger guards?

rock747
11-16-2012, 09:22 PM
Where was this intensity before? Great win. Hope they build on it...

pathil275
11-16-2012, 09:22 PM
First time this season that I guessed the score here on this board - 99:81 Pacers. Not too shabby, I should guess more often :D

Solid win, let's take this confidence and beat the Knicks.

rock747
11-16-2012, 09:22 PM
I consider this the first real win of the season.

vnzla81
11-16-2012, 09:23 PM
I also forgot to ad, yep I don't miss DC as the starter, he still sucks.

maragin
11-16-2012, 09:24 PM
Edit: The below was a failed attempt at snarkiness. My apologies. It was a poor attempt to thumb my nose at the blow it up, tank crowd. Maybe should have said posters instead of fans. Was happy as hell for the win, and expressed it incorrectly.
-----------

Apparently all we had to do win was have some of the "fans" on this board completely give up.

Johanvil
11-16-2012, 09:26 PM
Good win for the morale and a better ball movement in the second half.Also much better shooting.Won't get hyped after this result.

Heisenberg
11-16-2012, 09:28 PM
Apparently all we had to do win was have some of the "fans" on this board completely give up.
don't start this "fans" garbage

Eleazar
11-16-2012, 09:30 PM
Good win... caught most of the second half, so maybe I missed some things. From my perspective, it looked like Paul George and Hibbert were still having a rough go...

After watching this though, I could tell that chemistry is just taking time to build with the pretty much overhauled bench. Guys aren't sure of each other yet-- at least that's how it seemed to me. Great win (even without Dirk)... as vnzla said, I hope they build on it...

George got into some foul trouble in the second half, and was cold in the 4th. The first half though he played extremely well. Hibbert struggled shooting, but he looked much better during the whole game, then really turned it on in the 4th.

boombaby1987
11-16-2012, 09:30 PM
We are all die hard Pacers fans. We post on a freaking forum for god sakes. Lets stop with that discussion.

rock747
11-16-2012, 09:32 PM
Apparently all we had to do win was have some of the "fans" on this board completely give up.

:rolleyes:

Johanvil
11-16-2012, 09:39 PM
Give the ball to Lance and he will make things happen.

boombaby1987
11-16-2012, 09:39 PM
God David West is such a pro. So humble.

LoneGranger33
11-16-2012, 09:39 PM
I'd feel better about this win if Sam Young hadn't gone 6-11 for 14 points. I don't know how often he'll be able to duplicate that offensive production. Then again, we won by 20.

boombaby1987
11-16-2012, 09:41 PM
According to FSI, we are still in the 4th quarter up 16 with 4 minutes to go.

BornReady
11-16-2012, 09:42 PM
whoa. kinda didn't expect this but I'LL TAKE IT! :D

TMJ31
11-16-2012, 09:42 PM
Yes! There are my Pacers!

Speed
11-16-2012, 09:43 PM
Now, just need to play against Troy Murphys defense every game and they'll be in business. Good game or better, I guess. Don't sleep on how poorly Dallas defense was tonight though. Lastly, I'd like to propose a nickname for DJ, the invisible man, he's the anti stat stuffer. I've never seen a player have so little impact on a game than DJ, even in a solid win, he almost has no influence on what happened, crazy.

Trader Joe
11-16-2012, 09:46 PM
Apparently all we had to do win was have some of the "fans" on this board completely give up.

Thanks man please tell me how to be a better fan.

vnzla81
11-16-2012, 09:48 PM
I'd feel better about this win if Sam Young hadn't gone 6-11 for 14 points. I don't know how often he'll be able to duplicate that offensive production. Then again, we won by 20.

Yeah I feel the same way, how many times are Lance,Young and Green going to make the kind of shots they were making?
A win is a win but I'm not getting too excited.

BlueCollarColts
11-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Ian Mahinmi and Gerald Green are coming along. George Hill is playing like good as well as David West. Roy Hibbert found his rhythm in this game. Lance Stehphenson is showing big potenial. Sam Young is also playing better. We need to keep the momentum. If we do, when this team gets Danny Granger back we could be a very good team

BlueCollarColts
11-16-2012, 09:50 PM
I'd feel better about this win if Sam Young hadn't gone 6-11 for 14 points. I don't know how often he'll be able to duplicate that offensive production. Then again, we won by 20.
So in other words you are saying, you would feel better if one of our players had a bad game instead of a good game? he did not do anything he can't repeat. He hit open 3's, played solid D, and made easy lay-ups

BobbyMac
11-16-2012, 09:50 PM
What a difference a game makes!

Ace E.Anderson
11-16-2012, 09:53 PM
Great win for the pacers. Great for our confidence to get a blowout W.

But I was thinking....if there was ever a team Bird would want to be the GM for aside from the Pacers, it'd be DAL.

Carlisle, JOB are coaches that LB liked.
DC, Jones were players LB traded for/signed
Mayo and Kaman were players that LB always had interest in.
Dirk has been compared to LB(although it's more bc he's a big, shooter who happens to be a non African American)
Cuban is an owner that'll SPEND for FA...

Just some food for thought...

BlueCollarColts
11-16-2012, 09:54 PM
I'd feel better about this win if Sam Young hadn't gone 6-11 for 14 points. I don't know how often he'll be able to duplicate that offensive production. Then again, we won by 20.
look at it this way, yea Young probably won't do that every game, but Green only had 5 points if Young doesn't go off like that every game it means more shots for Green who can replace Young's 14 points and Young can fill Green's 5 points

2minutes twoa
11-16-2012, 09:57 PM
For the first time this season I recognized the team that was on the floor! Great energy! Great defense! Roy's still pressing and DJ still looks uncomfortable, but a step in the right direction. Great game by Lance!

vnzla81
11-16-2012, 09:57 PM
@DavidHarrison13: It's crazy to me how Jim has a job in the NBA other than ball boy. But I couldn't even get that job now so #fml

:laugh:

LoneGranger33
11-16-2012, 10:01 PM
So in other words you are saying, you would feel better if one of our players had a bad game instead of a good game? he did not do anything he can't repeat. He hit open 3's, played solid D, and made easy lay-ups

Nah, man. I'm not saying I'd rather he had a bad game. I just know that if it takes Sam Young scoring 14 points for us to win a game, we ain't finishing above .500. Nah mean?

I'm most encouraged by Roy Hibbert's last quarter of play. He's clearly not there yet, but he's getting there.


look at it this way, yea Young probably won't do that every game, but Green only had 5 points if Young doesn't go off like that every game it means more shots for Green who can replace Young's 14 points and Young can fill Green's 5 points

Yeah, that's the stuff!

maragin
11-16-2012, 10:11 PM
don't start this "fans" garbage

Fine. I didn't want to directly call out the tanking thread, which was the intended target. Thought it was a clever thing to say, but it did not come across as I had intended.

I have added a preface apology to my original post.

vnzla81
11-16-2012, 10:15 PM
In other news I expect Jr Smith to be suspended for Sundays game.

rock747
11-16-2012, 10:17 PM
Tim Donahue‏@TimDonahue8p9s

DC on emotions returning to Indy - "Not really."

Kid Minneapolis
11-16-2012, 10:20 PM
This is what I was talking about when I kept saying to give it time, because we all know the team we saw on the court tonight is what this team really is. "Blowing up the team" and "firing Vogel" were very much knee-jerk reactions. This is a team with good players, and they just need to get in sync. Let's hope it carries over. Confidence can be a very shaky thing when you're first establishing it.

CoolHand
11-16-2012, 10:24 PM
on the Eddie White post game show, George Hill said that Frank revamped the offense to help focus on the youth and atheleticism of the team minus Granger. He said that the offense had originally been setup to showcase Danny... Hopefully this means that we'll continue to look good! :)

1984
11-16-2012, 10:32 PM
We're going to the Super Bowl!

Sparhawk
11-16-2012, 10:37 PM
on the Eddie White post game show, George Hill said that Frank revamped the offense to help focus on the youth and atheleticism of the team minus Granger. He said that the offense had originally been setup to showcase Danny... Hopefully this means that we'll continue to look good! :)

Only took 9 games of awfulness for that to sink in I guess. I'm happy for Vogel and I hope he keeps it up. I definitely don't think he's stubborn, and willing to try new things. I'm still not sure he has what it takes to be a head coach right now, at least from an Xs and Os perspective and implementing a nice flowing offense, but if he can learn on the go and win along the way, then more power to him.

Sparhawk
11-16-2012, 10:38 PM
Need to Free Lance more!

Another nice game from Lance. With PG struggling and Lance on fire shooting, they should draw more plays up for Lance. Hell, just let Lance create for himself and others. He's starting to get those TOs down too!

BlueNGold
11-16-2012, 10:44 PM
My takeaway is that Lance is better than DJones, Tyler is better the Murphy and Hill is better than Collison. If you add Granger to this team we are 8-2 leading the division on our way to ring...

Naptown_Seth
11-16-2012, 10:55 PM
I'd feel better about this win if Sam Young hadn't gone 6-11 for 14 points. I don't know how often he'll be able to duplicate that offensive production. Then again, we won by 20.
I agree, and I'm a big Young fan. This was not a good game for the offense, it was just more solid defense and a pretty terrible Mavs offense. Look at the first couple of TO possessions where the Pacers came up empty. Look at the horrible struggles of Roy that got so bad he bailed out of post possessions with the much smaller Brand guarding him. Look at the struggles of Paul to protect the ball.

Right now Lance is the team's 3pt expert and half the points are coming off of garbage, 1/4th are coming from George and Lance just forcing their drives to the rim in traffic. I saw one nice rotation that got Lance an open 3 and another nice possession that got West an open baseline jumper.

But if you think other, better teams are going to be intimidated by this offense you better think again. The boys are working, they are defending and they are likeable. But they happen to suck on offense and tonight wasn't much different.


The win was huge, just for morale (fan morale). But there is a lot more work to be done before the damage is fixed.

Naptown_Seth
11-16-2012, 11:01 PM
Thanks man please tell me how to be a better fan.
Platform shoes and a drinking problem. I shouldn't have to explain how that would work.




BTW, I forgot to mention in the previous post that DJ continues to look bored/mundane. I don't get it. But as I was defending Sam/new players in other threads, you can see that Green, Ian and Sam are starting to figure out how they fit in. Green didn't have a big night, but you could also see where he backed it down on some plays rather than forcing his action at the wrong time. That's another sign of progress IMO.

Roy, Paul and DJ are lagging the most. It would be nice to see all 3 kick off their funks.

focused444
11-16-2012, 11:16 PM
In other news I expect Jr Smith to be suspended for Sundays game.

what happened???

vnzla81
11-16-2012, 11:25 PM
what happened???

He elbowed Bayless I expect a suspension.

Peck
11-16-2012, 11:27 PM
There won't be any odd thoughts tonight because I have a very early meeting in the am (yes on a Saturday) so I'll stick a couple of thoughts here.

1. Playing Tyler & Sam Young together is like playing Tyler & Lou together with the exception that you can play them with a real center. That is a very physical combo & on rare occasions when the moon turns blue or whatever Sam can hit that outside shot like he was Ray Allen thus providing you with both interior and defensive toughness but an actual shot maker as well. Don't count on it very often but when it works, like tonight, it can be a very strong weapon.

2. There is no stat to show you how important a couple of simple little plays were that were perfectly executed by Gerald Green & George Hill. Green set two solid screens and each one led to a wide open curl jumper from Hill. There was nothing fancy about it, but it was all part of the off ball movement and execution that we have so lacked going into this game. BTW while he didn't stuff the stat sheets I thought Green played a nice solid overall game.

3. No one will be happier than me whenever Vince finally retires. I swear to God he hits almost everything he ever shoots against us. I don't know if this is still a true stat or not but at one point in time I think Vince Carter had the most points scored against the Pacers by any opponent for a career.

4. Nothing cures poor interior offensive production like a visit from kindly old Dr. Saloon Door. Allowing post up position since 2000.

5. I don't know if any of you caught it or not but there was a very interesting twitter exchange between Mike Wells of the star & David Harrison about Jim O'Brien. I'll let others fill you in.

6. I couldn't help myself but I had to boo Satan every time I got a glimpse of him. I'm telling you though nothing but child like glee comes from me when I see him having to sit there on the bench and not be able to do anything or make any decisions.

7. Paul George still can not dribble.

8. Lance Stephenson is like an unstable molecule. He's going to explode you just don't know if it's going to blow up on you or on the other team. Tonight for certain Dallas felt his wrath. I love when he takes it to the basket, something always happens (could be good or could be bad but its going to happen).

9. Can Vince Carter be awarded a technical foul & a flopping warning on the same play? If so then I have a feeling Vince will be getting a call from the league office.

10. Jim O'Brien sucks

Derek2k3
11-16-2012, 11:28 PM
Regarding Sam Young, lost in the Milwaukee disaster was that he played a great 4th quarter.

So, in essence he's done this in back-to-back games, albeit totally different outcomes. He really isn't as bad as he'd been playing, so it was nice to seem him stringing some quality play together.

What a relief to see this result though. They needed this bad, as far as morale is concerned.

Oh, and how about the Pacers recent domination of Dallas? Last season, this season...nice to see.

Derek2k3
11-16-2012, 11:30 PM
He elbowed Bayless I expect a suspension.

Eh, neither was ejected, I'd be surprised to see a suspension.

Wouldn't be upset though, and certainly wouldn't disagree with one.

vnzla81
11-16-2012, 11:35 PM
Peck I don't think Vince flopped, he got hit in the eye, that play was actually bs if you are rooting for the Mavericks.

Derek2k3
11-16-2012, 11:40 PM
Sorry for the flurry of posts, but wanted to note the "Stat of the Night", or I should say "Stats".

Although Hibbert was, again, atrocious from the field (30%) he did 2 very, VERY important things: Got to the line SEVEN times (!) and didn't have a single turnover. For the first time he didn't let his struggles scoring get to him, he played with energy/passion, something that had been missing.

Love seeing the big fella get his head right. Other parts of his game will follow.

PacersHomer
11-17-2012, 12:06 AM
Exactly what we needed. Hopefully the Knicks won't be too angry coming off of the loss.

imawhat
11-17-2012, 12:43 AM
Vince Carter on camera, after inadvertently hitting Hansbrough: "If he'd gone to Duke I would've taken him down".

Sandman21
11-17-2012, 12:46 AM
Roy's contributions tonight went beyond what was on the stat sheet. There were a couple times where he hit West with a pass to get David a trip to the foul line, some solid D, and helping the offense. Once G2 and Area 55 got the "Let's Go Roy" chant really rolling, you could literally see Roy's confidence growing.

Goyle
11-17-2012, 01:17 AM
Championship?

http://i.minus.com/i76tEbfgt9CtW.gif

imbtyler
11-17-2012, 01:47 AM
Remember when I said that I thought Gerald Green (and PG) should post-up more often, because they're skilled in that area?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MAdsxFK27o8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There ya go. Those of you who watched the game already saw it. But ta-daaa.

Heisenberg
11-17-2012, 02:15 AM
I think this is the start of a streak that will last until he retires. A team that employs Jim O'Brien will never win a game against the Pacers again. Too much bad juju.

CableKC
11-17-2012, 02:18 AM
So the question is pretty straight forward, what did the Team do this time that is different then last time?

Can we capture it in a bottle and force-feed it to the Team before the start of a game?

In all seriousness, how did Lance do in this game?

It sounds like he is starting to click and figure things out..... but was he decent on the offensive and defensive end?

I think that it's been noted that Lance has been getting far more mintues over the last 2 games and is starting to contibute on a positive note.

Heisenberg
11-17-2012, 02:22 AM
So the question is pretty straight forward, what did the Team do this time that is different then last time?

Can we capture it in a bottle and force-feed it to the Team before the start of a game?

In all seriousness, how did Lance do in this game?

It sounds like he is starting to click and figure things out..... but was he decent on the offensive and defensive end?

I think that it's been noted that Lance has been getting far more mintues over the last 2 games and is starting to contibute on a positive note.
If this were the first game of the year it would've been the 2nd best game of his career. But since it wasn't it was like...the 7th. Played pretty well. There was a few times where he just abused Dallas in transition (it helped that they didn't feel like stopping the ball).

Guy's a legit player now, been playing too solid for too many games now to just call it a flash in the pan. I was wrong. And so were like 80% of you reading this so shut up.

Nuntius
11-17-2012, 03:31 AM
Guy's a legit player now, been playing too solid for too many games now to just call it a flash in the pan. I was wrong. And so were like 80% of you reading this so shut up.

Yup. Lance is legit and he has made most of us (including me) eat a lot of crow. And that's ****ing amazing. I love this year's Lance :D

gummy
11-17-2012, 03:49 AM
So the question is pretty straight forward, what did the Team do this time that is different then last time?



Intensity. Focus. Crisp movements (ball and players). Controlled speed.

All that, and we hit way more of our open shots too.

In post-game interviews Hill and Young both said Vogel put in some new plays.

Jrod Jones
11-17-2012, 04:26 AM
Lance goes 5/9 with 12 points? With the starters? In a real win? Whats that you say? He hit 2 three's and had 3 assists to only 1 turnover? This kid is maturing right before our eyes and I can not wait to see what he's fully capable of.

Powww
11-17-2012, 04:26 AM
Lmao where the people that wanted Lance cut for little Hansbrough? Hilarious.

MvPlumlee
11-17-2012, 05:03 AM
Lmao where the people that wanted Lance cut for little Hansbrough? Hilarious.
Ya, one of the funniest things I ever read here :laugh:

They probably crawled under a rock still waiting to come out till Stephenson has a really bad game.

D-BONE
11-17-2012, 07:46 AM
Enjoyed the win and expect the team to build off it. At the same time, I found Dallas surprisingly underwhelming. Regardless of record, I don't think this is a good team. Maybe with a healthy Dirk. I'm glad we did not obtain Kaman. Like DC as a backup, but since he allegedly wouldn't accept that role, I'm not upset he's gone. Just wish we could have filled his spot with something more appetizing than Agustin/Lil Hansbrough.

If Lance can manage to consistently give us low double digits and reasonably level - headed play, it will be huge. Roy's activity level was much better. His overall play was not that much better. Abusing Murphy in garbage time down low doesn't count for much in my book. But, hopefully, if that intensity remains things will pick up.

PG on the other hand...blech on the offensive end. Huge height advantage multiple times where DC was matched up with him and the majority of them he couldn't hold position or get off a strong, non - fading away shot. So he's got a lot of work to do in that area. Plus the handles still aren't good enough.

Hope Seth is right about the bench guys slowly finding themselves. Only one I'm liking much right now is Mahinmi, but the big problem is the guy can't cure his foul magnet propensity. Young was great tonight. Much appreciated, but can he really be a reliable 3 pt threat?

Sparhawk
11-17-2012, 08:14 AM
Only sucks that Lance didn't get an assist after the first quarter. :(

Need to get Lance more involved on offense. If he can keep shooting lights out like he has all season, it'll take pressure off PG and Hibbs cause the defense will have to contain Lance.

But you can't stop Lance, you can ONLY hope to contain him! Yeah, I went there.

owl
11-17-2012, 08:16 AM
I remember when Young was at PItt he consistently hit that baseline shot. It was his bread and butter shot.

Speed
11-17-2012, 08:54 AM
If Sam Young can get to where he doesn't hurt you offensively (not even wishing for helping, even after tonight) then he's very rotation worthy because he'll help you defensively every night, as long as you don't mismatch him positionally (like have him guarding 4s, etc). I like Sam Young too, He's an okay jump shot from being very valuable.

Pacer Fan
11-17-2012, 09:10 AM
Thank Goodness for the WIN!

What took so long for Frank to realize that his offensive scheme sucked and he needed to try something different. I still don't know about Frank and the Pacers. Mavs are a pretty bad team at the moment and their defense was terrible against the Pacers. We'll see soon where this team is come Sunday. I hope last night is the beginning of a great season and I hope Frank proves me wrong and shows that he can make adjustments and is NBA head coaching worthy!


Go Pacers!

Pacer Fan
11-17-2012, 09:20 AM
If Sam Young can get to where he doesn't hurt you offensively (not even wishing for helping, even after tonight) then he's very rotation worthy because he'll help you defensively every night, as long as you don't mismatch him positionally (like have him guarding 4s, etc). I like Sam Young too, He's an okay jump shot from being very valuable.

Yea, I'm not hating on Sam, but the Grizz basically let him walk for Ellington, so his defense isn't a big enough plus to out way his woeful offense. I would like to see the Pacers do something in a trade to get a real backup SF. I don't think Sam is gonna help stop a LBJ or a KD, so what's the point. Same thought the Grizz had too I'm sure.

McKeyFan
11-17-2012, 09:22 AM
Guy's a legit player now, been playing too solid for too many games now to just call it a flash in the pan. I was wrong. And so were like 80% of you reading this so shut up.

The truly great can admit it when they are wrong. I read all your posts and this will only make me pay more attention in the future.

McKeyFan
11-17-2012, 09:26 AM
Another thing about Lance last night that some may have missed. He was a real leader out there. "Leader" may be too strong, because he is so young. But he is a mega-cheerleader who encourages the guys who really need it after big plays.

Not only that, he has that feel that winners have for when to hit key shots (Granger and Hill also have that). The three he hit in the third, I think, that put us up by 13 or so, was the psychological turning of the game. Players with a killer's instinct know how important it is not to just just coast on a 9 or 10 point lead but to put the foot on the opponent's throat.

Pacer Fan
11-17-2012, 09:35 AM
Yea, Lance was off the chain last night. I am very happy for him. I hope he keeps it up, I think he might just do that too. I think a lot of us have known he has a huge upside. We just all questioned his immaturity vs the NBA. Rather or not he could put his talents to good use in the NBA before self destruct. Pacers FO has done very well with him. Larry obviously saw something in Lance on a personal level to allow patience with Lance.

AustinWind
11-17-2012, 10:02 AM
Not much chance at Gotham City on Sunday, especially with the nix defeat at Memphis. I was glad to see Rick Carlisle's #CHUCKSTRONG haircut last night. Glad he's on board with that.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2012, 10:14 AM
GREAT WIN!

Some observations:

ONLY 8 TO's! That half of the normal TO's committed.

23 asts... that shows ball and player movement.

19-31 FT shooting is just feeable, terrible, atrocious! This has to improve along with getting to the line more often as a team.

DWest 5/9 for 55% shooting instead of the 3 previous games of 25% shooting.


Now, I want to address the bench. For 9 games I've read how this bench sux and how some miss last years bench. Well, this bench doesn't sux, and overall is better than last years bench. Too many have selective memories regarding last years bench.

Ian is better than Lou. Lou couldn't hit a jump shot if his life depended on it. Lou was a TERRIBLE FT shooter. Ian has a mid-range jumper and can hit FA. Ian isn't the reb'r I'd like... yet, but he'll get more comfortable in the game allowing better reb'ing.

Sam Young is better at "D" than Dahntay was. Just remember it took Dahntay TWO years as a Pacer to have the season he had last year where his 3 pt and FT shooting improved. If Sam can play good "D" and give 5-7 PPG, he's replaced Dahntay w/o a problem.

Gerald Green is younger and more athletic than Barbosa. He can score as much per game as Barbosa did, and he comes at half the price Barbosa was.

Augustin unfortunately isn't better than DC, but then I wasn't impressed with DC's game last night either. The good thing is DJ Augustin is an expiring contract. I'm surprised DJ isn't playing good ball, as I've been a DJ fan, to get a new contract. Hopefully, he'll come out of his funk, but if not he won't be hard to replace next year.

As many others have said, I just hope the play from last nights game continues. I really enjoyed watching the game last night. Due to past games play, I was expecting a loss last night, but got to watch a different team bring a good and much needed win.

Now, let me preface my statement about the bench being better. It could have even been more improved than it is if the FO had spent their money more wisely. They just flat dropped the ball.... period!

pacers74
11-17-2012, 10:20 AM
Lance is fitting better than I thought he would. This is the first time this year that this team even remotely resembled last years team. Let's hope the new offensive style Frank implemented stickd around and makr this team more competetive and watchable.

Ace E.Anderson
11-17-2012, 10:26 AM
The main difference between last night and the past few games was that we hit more open shots and turned the ball over a lot less. We have an elite defense right now, so if we can hit more open shots than not, and turn the ball over less, then we have the potential to be in most games.

I still think that we could make a trade. Our young players (Lance, George, Paul, Green, DJ, Tyler) have all shown they play a lot better within an up tempo type of game. If we can add a real 3pt shooter and/or a more athletic big, I think we could be much improved for the long run. If not a trade, then maybe sign a legit 3pt shooter.

Right now, I'm happy for Young though.

Ps.. For everyone that wanted DC at the point instead of Hill, last nights game should put that to rest. For most of the season Hill has been our best player at the PG position. He may not be what most PD'ers want, but he's already good and keeps getting better at playing the position.

aamcguy
11-17-2012, 10:32 AM
Sam Young is better at "D" than Dahntay was. Just remember it took Dahntay TWO years as a Pacer to have the season he had last year where his 3 pt and FT shooting improved. If Sam can play good "D" and give 5-7 PPG, he's replaced Dahntay w/o a problem.

Gerald Green is younger and more athletic than Barbosa. He can score as much per game as Barbosa did, and he comes at half the price Barbosa was.


Convenient timing to put this out here when the audience is going to be more receptive. I agree with most of what you wrote, but not about Sam Young and Gerald Green. I have to disagree that Sam Young is better defensively OR offensively than Jones. They are both better at guarding SGs than SFs, but Young gets pushed around against anybody physical. And you used offensive stats to back up his defense? Regardless, I don't feel it was a full correct assessment Jones also shot 77% FT his first 2 seasons with us, then "jumped" all the way up to 83%. Considering he only played 15ish minutes a game, that's about a 5-10 game hot streak from the line. So he was never a bad shooter, but he didn't really improve. His 3 point shooting improved for sure. But it improved to a point where he is a far better 3 pt. shooter than Sam Young, and he was already vastly improved by his second season with us.

Green brings a different kind of scoring as Barbosa, and I don't think you can say at this point if he is as good as Barbosa. Past the first 10 or so games with us, I was already over Barbosa. But judging from Green's play in this season, I don't think you can say he's a better offensive player. They score in different ways. Green's also not an experienced player. A lot of the plays Barbosa made for us were actually sneaky defensive plays where he realized what was happening and put himself in a position to create a TO.

BillS
11-17-2012, 10:35 AM
One point I haven't seen mentioned (forgive me if I missed it) is that Carlisle did not have the Mav's defense collapse on the paint the way practically every other defense has done all year. That could be because we caught them off guard with the ball and player movement, making it harder to go away from a man-to-man defense without risking defensive 3 second violations. However, it will be very interesting to see if this holds up against a defense determined to establish the zone by blocking travel paths.

That said - ball movement and passing? That's what brung us, please stick with it.

McKeyFan
11-17-2012, 11:13 AM
The main difference between last night and the past few games was that we hit more open shots and turned the ball over a lot less. We have an elite defense right now, so if we can hit more open shots than not, and turn the ball over less, then we have the potential to be in most games.


One point I haven't seen mentioned (forgive me if I missed it) is that Carlisle did not have the Mav's defense collapse on the paint the way practically every other defense has done all year. That could be because we caught them off guard with the ball and player movement, making it harder to go away from a man-to-man defense without risking defensive 3 second violations. However, it will be very interesting to see if this holds up against a defense determined to establish the zone by blocking travel paths.

That said - ball movement and passing? That's what brung us, please stick with it.

My take is that penetration was the key (insert Clark Kellogg joke here). That's what we did last night, early in the shot clock, that we haven't done the rest of the games. If one of our wings didn't try to go to the hole, then we whipped it around the horn until we could post up a big in decent position. The penetration didn't usually result in a shot, but it always led to finding an open man.

Before last night, we just kept passing around the horn until finally, maybe, we posted up a big. Or we threw up a prayer from the perimeter.

owl
11-17-2012, 11:24 AM
My take is that penetration was the key (insert Clark Kellogg joke here). That's what we did last night, early in the shot clock, that we haven't done the rest of the games. If one of our wings didn't try to go to the hole, then we whipped it around the horn until we could post up a big in decent position. The penetration didn't usually result in a shot, but it always led to finding an open man.

Before last night, we just kept passing around the horn until finally, maybe, we posted up a big. Or we threw up a prayer from the perimeter.


Excellent observation of what happened last night. To those who know offensive sets did the Pacers run something different last night or was it all freelance.. :-)

Naptown_Seth
11-17-2012, 01:08 PM
One point I haven't seen mentioned (forgive me if I missed it) is that Carlisle did not have the Mav's defense collapse on the paint the way practically every other defense has done all year. That could be because we caught them off guard with the ball and player movement, making it harder to go away from a man-to-man defense without risking defensive 3 second violations. However, it will be very interesting to see if this holds up against a defense determined to establish the zone by blocking travel paths.

That said - ball movement and passing? That's what brung us, please stick with it.

I believe I made this case to BillS last night when he was mad at my less than impressed reaction to the game. ;) #stealmythunder :D

It was odd that for the first time we didn't see hard low post traps, doubles or any zone that I noticed. Rick has always believed in one on one defense and they stuck to that most of the night it seemed.



FIRST 6 MINUTES OF OFFENSIVE SETS
BTW, I also promised Bill that I'd go through the tape to talk about the fact that for the most part the offense was NOT FIXED and was living more on defensive created transitions than quality half-court. That will take awhile. But in the meantime here is the one thing I did bring up to him that got this discussion going, the EARLY possessions and how they showed the issues still there.

1) Modest FT line cross lane pick by Roy to get West the high arc feed to the high post. West took the pass and dribble drove to the rim. Reason it worked - KAMAN SUCKS ON DEFENSE. He not only doesn't switch, he literally comes into the lane UNDER Roy picking Brand, almost helping to slow down Brand. He literally doesn't look at West as he's getting the pass even though it was obvious as hell.
Pacers pick/spacing = B, Mavs defense = D

2) Steal at the FT line gives Paul a transition. Mayo has position on him and is able to square up and force him to cross the lane with Collison and Brand closing quickly. Rather than turn to set up he forces the awkward reverse attempt and comes up empty. There are 4 Mavs there and no other Pacers which means that there will be no shot at any rebound. He tried to be a hero.
Pacers "offense" = F or No Grade

3) Loose ball picked up in lane (Lance slapped a pass away from Kaman=nice). Lance gets ball from Hill on floor and forces the dribble drive full court against all 5 Mavs ahead of him. He stops on the wing as Roy is posting, 3 Mavs between Lance and the rim, Lance drives and hops into a falling, awkward jumper and no shot at the rebound again.
Pacers offense = F

4) Collison bad miss allows Pacers to get transition mismatch of Collison on Paul. Paul and West work the post feed switch, feed to West who dribbles out and passes to Paul who has run by and put Collison in the low post. Paul dribbles off his own foot and wastes a 7-8 inch advantage at the rim
Pacers offense = B+ in concept, F in execution by Paul.

**** there's no good reason to not be at least 6-0 at this point and possibly drawing 1-2 fouls, the defense has been great ****

5) Lance defends Marion well, missed turn jumper. Modest transition with George pushing it up. Full HC set now. Roy posts Kaman, Paul feeds and does the STANDARD BASELINE RUN THROUGH. The one that we've seen the ball stolen on in several of the last few games. Mayo completely lets Paul get 3 feet ahead of him and oddly is not challenging Roy either, just lagging behind. Roy has easy pass to Paul for simple dunk (not oop or special athletic move needed).
Pacers offense = C for predictability (if I ranted about this specific play being their primary play in the "Scouts" thread, then it's freaking predictable), Mavs defense = D for effort and awareness...watch some tape already

BTW, at the game when I saw this live I said "I can't believe they fell for that". It hasn't worked for about 5 games now.

6) Kaman takes a long hurried jumper? (ugh, I was wrong to want him here). They try to post Roy, Hill can't feed from the corner, almost holds it too long, back to Lance at the right arc, West and Roy do a non-contact run-by and Roy comes out to set the high PnPop with Paul who got the SLOW rotation from Lance. Team is moving through mud at this point and the play is dying with 7 seconds on the clock. Roy comes to the FT line and gets the return pass, Marion shows help from Lance, Marion bites light pass fake from Roy to Lance. Meanwhile Kaman slowly lumbers back toward Roy with no effort to recover which leaves Roy with the full lane. He drives and misses dunk but draws foul (misses both)
Pacers offense = C, Mavs defense = D (Kaman effort, Marion bit fake too hard)

7) Kaman misses shot at rim (more ugh), West pushes outlet to Hill who make briliant outlet up to Lance on the right wing. Lance immediately goes into a drive, jumps in the air in the lane ala Fred Jones but at the last second finds Paul out on the left arc for the open 3.
Pacers offense = B+ (good due to aggressive transition, not indicative of any half court structure), Mavs defense = N/A, burned by transition and never got set


TIMEOUT, Dallas offense getting crushed

8) Pacers good defense but Mavs stick with it and get Mayo a 3. Pacers come up for the first time with a set Mavs defense. Pacers PUSH IT UP with Hill's dribble and then another long pass up to Lance, exactly the same as #7. Lance drives to baseline where Marion turns him into a trap by Brand. But Brand leaving to help leaves West open at the FT arc. Kaman tries to close out from the rim and West drives at him, sets him up for a spin to the lane but Brand comes from Lance right to West and West is forced into a contested off-balance shot at the charge circle.
Pacers offense = C, good tempo to get an advantage, not really sure what to do after pass to West

9) Marion defended fairly well and misses turn jumper again. Transition is slower, partly due to Paul bringing it up. He drives lane and is turned away, dumps to West and then drags his man right into West's space (Marion even puts a hand up on West's upfake as he goes by). West is a little stuck, dumps to Lance on the wing. West picks for Lance to go cross-court to the lane, Brand is awful in moving off West to deny Lance and lets him go right to the rim for a layup.
Pacers offense = C, mostly bad, saved by Lance, Mavs defense = C, Brand should have been able to turn Lance away

10) Kaman takes another long jumper with no offense (just epic ugh). Modest transition and Roy does a good job of getting into Kaman post with Paul feeding. Paul does the standard baseline run-through and Mayo slaps at Roy as he goes by.

10b) High PnPop with Hill/Hibbert. Roy gets ball outside the right elbow. Hill then awkwardly brings Collison back to Roy trying to get the ball back maybe, not sure what the spacing goal is, but Collison is allowed to get near Roy and tips the ball out of his hands. Roy picks it up and just decides to dribble drive. He misses the PG style lane runner, which to his credit would be a decent shot. But this is in no way a quality offensive play designed to make that happen.
Pacers offense = D, confused, sluggish and still in each other's space

11) Kaman lefty hook, Pacers 2nd set from a made basket coming. This is a full play. West top arc over to Paul on left arc, Hill runs through and shows a FAKE low post of DC. Then he cuts back to set the real pick for Roy. Meanwhile Lance comes over the West screen to get the pass back at the top arc. Roy doesn't really clear from Kaman and to be honest it doesn't seem like Lance is even looking for that or the rotation back to Paul to feed Roy. Instead he shows upfake and then dribbles back over the West high PnPop. Back to West who then sets the shot screen and pass for Lance who takes a long jumper just inside the arc for the miss
Pacers offense = B-, good motion and picks, but ultimately this play does not generate a good look, Mavs defense = C, nothing special

12) Vince posts Lance, upfake, spin, layup. Lance stayed on the ground, looks like Vince got a little elbow hook for space. Another set out of a make. First they go to Paul at the left arc who waits for something to unfold until the 18s mark. No play and they instead setup with West top arc. Lance and Hill pick each other on right wing to get Hill free to take pass at left arc while Lance picks Kaman. Vince is able to hold up Roy which lets Kaman literally get to the low post before Roy. 12s on clock and Hill has to punt with a pass to Lance at the top arc. High PnPop with West at top of key, pass to West who has Vince switched to him. Backs down Vince but Brand easily doubles over to him from Lance who is sitting on the left arc waiting for the 3 kick out. FOUL
Pacers offense = B-, clunky but finally got a good situation out of it

12b) In bounds passer is Paul, Hill sets a backdoor pick for him which clears him, meanwhile pass to West rotates to Roy on right arc. He has height to easily feed Paul. Paul misses layup but Vince clearly fouls him by hipchecking him in the air, not to mention the Vince foul of running over Hill to "clear" the pick. The miss results in a Dallas transition and the game is tied at 9.
Pacers offense = A, Mavs defense = C for fouling without the call


That's the first 6 minutes. The score is 9 to 9 and based on the Pacers defense and opportunities it should have been closer to 18-9 instead. They've had one really sharp play for 2 points, a couple of other modestly good sets, and almost nothing productive from the HC. The Pacers are clearly in a "we must push it up at an insane pace" mode due to the terrible HC game. The best offensive sets came out of timeouts, so in that way it supports Vogel and the staff. The issue appears to be more about the regular go-to playbook, and that wasn't solved last night.

Vogel has reacted to the problems by going with tempo to scrap together a few more points, maybe 8-12 you can get from that. And if the defense remains elite then that can work. They also are starting to run sets to get LANCE THE THREE ATTEMPT. Hill is obviously now trying to push the dribble and possibly go right into a lane drive on transition. But none of this adds up to "fixed". Last night Dallas showed a terrible defense and not much offense against a good Pacers defense.

This will not work against better teams. Roy needs to improve on getting/holding the low post, and the HC sets need to have more quickness and crispness. They still show very slow decision making going on and that makes them easy to recover against and defend. No one seems to know what's coming next.


Please note that most of my "above C" grades were due to effort or pushing the ball up. There were only a couple of moments of truly good offensive flow.

PritchSlap
11-17-2012, 01:15 PM
Saw Mark Cuban at Kilroy's after the game! My buddy who's a Mav's fan yelled "Go Mavs!" but it looked like Mark thought he was being sarcastic..

Justin Tyme
11-17-2012, 01:52 PM
Convenient timing to put this out here when the audience is going to be more receptive.

Green brings a different kind of scoring as Barbosa, and I don't think you can say at this point if he is as good as Barbosa. Past the first 10 or so games with us, I was already over Barbosa. But judging from Green's play in this season, I don't think you can say he's a better offensive player. They score in different ways. Green's also not an experienced player. A lot of the plays Barbosa made for us were actually sneaky defensive plays where he realized what was happening and put himself in a position to create a TO.


I've stated BEFORE this bench is better than last years bench, so I didn't conveniently wait for a more receptive audience to say it.

You are right that Barbosa and Green are different players and scorers. I said I felt Green would score as much as Barbosa did. Green will replace Barbosa's points. If you'll recall, I wasn't happy with Barbosa having 1 good game out of 3 or 4 last year, and voiced my displeasure about it numerous times. I never was enthralled with Barbosa from the get go, and much less with his disappearing act in the playoffs.

To be quite honest, Barbosa is a player who should be able to help the Celtics, and I'd much rather him be there than here.

This whole view of which bench is better should make for a good discussion after the season is over. IMO, this bench will be the overall better bench without a doubt.

Eleazar
11-17-2012, 01:58 PM
To me the only thing Barbosa has on Green is experience.

Naptown_Seth
11-17-2012, 02:09 PM
For the sake of fairness, I forgot that my favorite play of the night came right after where I stopped and the team deserves credit for it.

They in-bounds sideline right and will get Lance the ball who dribbles it to the top of the arc. The play then is Hill is on the right wing (in-bounded) with Roy at the right lane. Paul is left wing with West at left lane. MIRROR picks with the guards going by the bigs and then Paul sets a staggered pick in the lane (with West already there) that prevents Collison from coming over the top of West on the curl by Hill. So now Hill curls West on the baseline and catches the pass from Lance on the move. This motion has him in-dribble going to the lane right away which forces Brand to switch. DC continues to try to recover and West takes just 1.5 steps back along the baseline. This gives Hill the return passing lane over the shorter Collison.

Hill does a hook pass over his head to the wide open West for an easy truly open jumper, which West hits. That's offense, that's what they need more of, and it was atypical on the night. I was talking about that play later because it stood out so much. A pick or screen that sets up an additional pick or screen works wonders.

Note that this was yet another out of timeout play call.


* and then the very next play Paul just dribbles into the right corner, does a couple of basic moves and pulls up for the long jumper miss, zero passing, setup, penetration....just when you start to believe ;)

Peck
11-17-2012, 03:16 PM
Convenient timing to put this out here when the audience is going to be more receptive. I agree with most of what you wrote, but not about Sam Young and Gerald Green. I have to disagree that Sam Young is better defensively OR offensively than Jones. They are both better at guarding SGs than SFs, but Young gets pushed around against anybody physical. And you used offensive stats to back up his defense? Regardless, I don't feel it was a full correct assessment Jones also shot 77% FT his first 2 seasons with us, then "jumped" all the way up to 83%. Considering he only played 15ish minutes a game, that's about a 5-10 game hot streak from the line. So he was never a bad shooter, but he didn't really improve. His 3 point shooting improved for sure. But it improved to a point where he is a far better 3 pt. shooter than Sam Young, and he was already vastly improved by his second season with us.

Green brings a different kind of scoring as Barbosa, and I don't think you can say at this point if he is as good as Barbosa. Past the first 10 or so games with us, I was already over Barbosa. But judging from Green's play in this season, I don't think you can say he's a better offensive player. They score in different ways. Green's also not an experienced player. A lot of the plays Barbosa made for us were actually sneaky defensive plays where he realized what was happening and put himself in a position to create a TO.

:wtf:

I'll pay very close attentiont to this vs the knicks but man I get the exact opposite opinion of that & I like Dahntay. Sam is a tank, if he were just 3 inches taller he would be a bruising power forward instead of a bruising small forward. Now if you were going to complain about his foot speed or God awful passing I could see, but getting pushed around?

I'm not going to proclaim you are wrong because maybe you saw something I didn't but I want to see this myself.

Naptown_Seth
11-17-2012, 04:23 PM
Speaking of Dahntay, how about that grab and yank takedown of Tyler, followed by the "what?!?" look. The camera view is from the opposite side, but from the bench sideline it was very obvious. He reached around Tyler's waste, hooked him and pulled him aside. Maybe it's his new variation of pulling the chair, more like throwing the chair? ;)

gummy
11-17-2012, 05:10 PM
Lmao where the people that wanted Lance cut for little Hansbrough? Hilarious.

Really? Somehow I missed that. I can't imagine it was more than two or three people. At any given time there's a group of 2-5 people who are advocating something strange. That's life on the Internet.

aamcguy
11-17-2012, 07:07 PM
:wtf:

I'll pay very close attentiont to this vs the knicks but man I get the exact opposite opinion of that & I like Dahntay. Sam is a tank, if he were just 3 inches taller he would be a bruising power forward instead of a bruising small forward. Now if you were going to complain about his foot speed or God awful passing I could see, but getting pushed around?

I'm not going to proclaim you are wrong because maybe you saw something I didn't but I want to see this myself.

Josh Smith posted him up and created like 4 straight baskets. In the Minnesota game he got posted up by either Kirilenko or Derrick Williams. Toronto sent Linas Kleiza at him. I understand there's a lot of SF/PF tweeners in there, but there's a lot of tweeners in the NBA. I was happy for a swap away from him cuz he gets abused whenever he guards a post-capable player.

Alas, they tend to stick PG on the best scorer, which means Stephenson *usually* ends up guarding SFs and we get the same result.

Eleazar
11-17-2012, 08:56 PM
Josh Smith posted him up and created like 4 straight baskets. In the Minnesota game he got posted up by either Kirilenko or Derrick Williams. Toronto sent Linas Kleiza at him. I understand there's a lot of SF/PF tweeners in there, but there's a lot of tweeners in the NBA. I was happy for a swap away from him cuz he gets abused whenever he guards a post-capable player.

Alas, they tend to stick PG on the best scorer, which means Stephenson *usually* ends up guarding SFs and we get the same result.

Our wings are very good post defenders. Paul sometimes is able to use his length to bother them, but beyond that we don't have any SF/SG that I trust in post defense against anyone good in the post.


Edit: Excluding Granger obviously.

aamcguy
11-17-2012, 10:54 PM
Our wings are very good post defenders. Paul sometimes is able to use his length to bother them, but beyond that we don't have any SF/SG that I trust in post defense against anyone good in the post.

I agree, and assume you are excluding Granger. But I was just backing up my assertion that Sam Young gets pushed around. I probably should have initially phrased it to mean he gets dominated in the post because he is too short and not strong enough to guard bigger SFs on the block.