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Peck
11-14-2012, 03:10 AM
I am at a complete and total loss.

I have no idea how to fix this and I don’t know if we even have the people in place to fix this.

I just know that this is an absolute disaster and any hopes of real post season success are going further and further away from us as we continue to lose to cupcake teams that the league so graciously gave us to start our season.

I mean in all honesty we have an ideal beginning season schedule, sure there are a lot of road games but a lot of them are against teams who either did not make the playoffs last year or were very low seeds with a few contenders sprinkled in. Giving us another massive home stand to end the season and maybe secure home court advantage, right now that is the absolute farthest thing from my mind. I think I’ll just be happy to make the playoffs at this point in time and really can no longer concern myself with playoff positioning.

I think that is my biggest problem this year, it’s not that we are playing any worse than in years past I mean for the love of God I had to sit through the O’Brien years. But in all honesty I came into the season actually thinking this year was going to be something different. Not the normal different that I hope for every year but the real honest difference that comes with actually being one of the best teams in the league.

I mean if I’m honest I will admit that once Danny went down with injury I figured that everybody else would step up, that our depth would show brighter than it ever had and frankly I thought that Paul George would develop into option A as a scorer leaving me with the very unenviable task of having to defend Danny against all of Paul’s fans who would want him moved because Paul was doing so well.

That has all collapsed.

In fact as I type this I am listening to NBAtv in the background & tonight Ernie Johnson is in studio as host and he just called Danny Granger a superstar. Yes you read that right he called him a SUPERSTAR. I didn’t even believe it myself so I just went back & rewound it to make sure I heard him right.

I find this so frustrating because in the pre-season preview NBAtv had nothing good to say about Danny.

I digress.

I’ll quote General Beringer from War Games: I’d **** on a spark plug if I thought it would do any good.

That’s where I am right now, I have no idea.

Is it Frank? He needs to accept a lot of the blame & maybe he needs the vast majority of the blame, I don’t know.

His sets are predictable and frankly every team in the league knows them. Tonight Calderon was turning around on defense showing the Raptors what play the Pacers were running by hand signal. In other words whatever Frank held up Jose made sure that his team mates saw it.

But as much as I think Frank deserves blame here, and believe me I’m not giving him a break, I just don’t know how much of this is all on him.

I mean honest to God Roy Hibbert is now missing 3-5’ bunny hook shots that are just rolling out of the rim. These were plays called specifically to get Roy an open look, which he got, but then just missed the shot. Frank also has the disability of not having anyone on the roster who can just flat out square up and shoot the ball.

Think about this Calderon changed the game in the first quarter and how did he do it? It wasn’t wizardry or deadeye long distance shooting. Simply put he just squared up and started hitting 13-15’ jump shots. Now the argument can be made that Frank doesn’t design plays to get those types of looks but then the counter argument to that would be even if he did who is going to hit that shot? I have no idea, sometimes David West can but the past couple of games he has not been a real threat from the field.

I mean collectively the team shot 32% from the field. Some of that was on the coach for the type of shots but some of that is on the team for missing wide open shots and taking poor off balance shots as well (some of that is the fault of Frank I’ll grant you).

I wanted the win at the end of the day, because like I said for whatever reason I haven’t been able to give up the ghost on playoff positioning, but frankly we didn’t deserve to win.

I can’t tell you how disgusting it is to feel that the team was out hustled by a team that played a triple overtime the night before half the country away. By the end of the 4th quarter the Raptors were beyond running on vapors. It was a sad pathetic way to spend the night to be honest with you.

Also does anyone have any idea why Kevin Pritchard is out watching College Basketball instead of watching the Pacers and trying to figure out what is wrong with our team? Don't we have college scouts anymore or did we let them go and Pritchard has to do that as well?

I’m just doing grades tonight & as you can imagine they won’t be pretty. Also as a reminder to people game grades are based on the game played that does not mean the player can not get a lower or higher grade in another game.

David West: D

Just didn’t produce. Played nearly 40 min and came away with 11 points & 6 rebounds. No Bargnani didn’t light him up either but unlike the first game where he saved us tonight he just could not hit shots. Also side note, on that last possession where he was taken out he was limping and wincing coming to the bench.

Paul George: D+

Again I’m just going on tonight’s game if I went on expectations I’m sorry it would be an F but I’ll hold that go with the D+. The guy just has no idea how to drive to the basket and has almost no ability to dribble in traffic. His defense is outstanding and his rebounding is solid but right now we need a true elite level scorer from the wing position.

Roy Hibbert: F

I tweeted at half time that when Roy walked on the floor from the locker room he looked totally out of it and disengaged. In other words I wonder if Frank didn’t call up Jim on the phone to give Roy a half time talk. I told Diamond Dave that there was just no way that he was going to be of any functional use. Sorry guys this is a real problem because we are in a full fledged mental melt down by the big man. I’m not sure how to snap him out of it but sadly our fortunes are tied to him.

Lance Stephenson: C+

Dude plays with fire and purpose. He may play out of control a lot but even that is much less than it used to be. However give me some of that edge and fire over cool nonchalant demeanor any day of the week. No he didn’t give us enough but for what is expected of him this was a decent game.

George Hill: C+

Shot putrid from the field but at the end of the day this guy does not shy away from big moments and really is about the only player on our team (other than maybe Lance) who can get his own shot. Now understand he had some poor passing early in the game but if it wasn’t for him we would have probably not outscored the Raptors in the final quarter (not that it really mattered).

Tyler Hansbrough: B

You wouldn’t think it by looking at his stats but I’m telling you he was a difference maker on the floor. He tapped a lot of balls and he drew a couple of charges & poked balls loose. Not all of that shows up as a favorable stat for him but he really upped the energy level out there as well. So far this season he has been a pleasant surprise.

Gerald Green: D

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HNcM4YjzgHY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ian Mahinmi: C-

Just as a reminder we are paying him 2 million more a year than what Greg Stiemsma is making with the Wolves. I bring that up because I wanted Greg and they are both producing the same results. Its obvious Frank doesn’t trust him very much either with is really bad considering Roy is having a nervous breakdown.

D.J. Augustin: C-

He hit a shot, he hit a free throw, and these are massive up grades over what he has done in the past. Other than that though once again Frank shows almost zero faith in him letting him play a whopping 11 min on the floor.


You guys tell me what's wrong.

Diamond Dave
11-14-2012, 03:22 AM
Well it speaks volumes about this season that I just got done visiting nbadraft.net. If you'd ask me in September who was coming out in this upcoming draft class I'd have said, "Who cares? Pacers are gonna be drafting 24-30 so you just take best available."

Well that is no longer the case. Barring a medical miracle that Danny wakes up tomorrow and has young Theo Ratliff legs, this season is down the drain. I have zero point zero faith in Paul George. Roy will struggle all year due to our lack of perimeter threats and his mental ineptitude. Oh and DJ Augustine, to quote another brilliant poster, "sucks more *** than a Tijuana hooker."

It is the O'brien era all over again where all we do all season is wait until some massive upheavel of the team and staff happens to hopefully usher in a new era.

CableKC
11-14-2012, 04:28 AM
Is it possible that there is some loss in Team Chemistry with the significant change in lineups that we are seeing here?

There are 2 changes that we are talking about here.

1 ) We have at most...a 9-10 man rotation where 4 to 5 of them are new to the roster. How much chemistry and familiarity does DJ, Green and Mahinmi have with each other? If anything, it's been said that Lance and Hansbrough have the most familiarity with each other which has resulted in some trust and good plays.
2 ) The Starting lineup's chemistry is slightly altered with Granger out and adding into the mix some combination of Green, Lance and Young.

I'm not saying that there isn't anything wrong.....clearly something is affecting Hibbert's game and PG is now being forced to be "The Man" ( which is something that I do not think he will ever be suited to be ) with Granger out....but I'm suggesting that what we are seeing may simply be a by-product of the changes to our lineup ( due to Granger being out ) and the lack of familiarity between the Players and rotations that we are being forced to use.

This doesn't mean that I think that adding Granger back into the mix will fix EVERYTHING.....it will fix some of the issues...but I'm saying that I think that the 2nd unit and lack of production is one of the reasons why we aren't doing too well ( the main reason is because Hibbert is doing his best impression of Andres Biedrins instead of the Hibbert that showed us what he was made of in the Playoffs ).

Bball
11-14-2012, 05:10 AM
If you're thinking about leadership and rallying points, how many players do we have left that rallied around the idea that JOB is gone and Vogel isn't JOB?

Hibbert, Paul George, Hans.... Obviously Granger is out so he can't count for much.
Do we count Lance?

I don't know how much difference it makes but obviously it was a rallying point for the team as a whole to want to play better and do better once JOB was gone. With all the turnover maybe that collective rallying point is gone?

DC would've had a chip on his shoulder for sure.

And remember the rumors/leaks that the Pacers weren't going to match Portland and re-sign Roy? Ever wonder if maybe that was the fracture in the FO and Bird wasn't going to pay Roy that kind of money? Meanwhile, Loyal Simon and "Tell me the max so I can write the check" Donnie Walsh might've had other plans?

I dunno... I'm probably reaching...

kmjohnson
11-14-2012, 06:07 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the Raptors could hit only one shot in the forth quarter, and we still couldn't come away with the W.

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 06:12 AM
And remember the rumors/leaks that the Pacers weren't going to match Portland and re-sign Roy? Ever wonder if maybe that was the fracture in the FO and Bird wasn't going to pay Roy that kind of money? Meanwhile, Loyal Simon and "Tell me the max so I can write the check" Donnie Walsh might've had other plans?

I dunno... I'm probably reaching...

I wondered that when Bird stepped down.

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 06:13 AM
Free Lance.

PacerDude
11-14-2012, 07:27 AM
Paul George: ................. His defense is outstanding.
I'm going to disagree with this and then pile on.

More than once last nite, he would be completely lost on D, looking around for whomever he was supposed to be guarding and when that guy scored on an easy hoop, he slumped his shoulders and mentally took himself out of the next minute or 2 of the game. Again, not an isolated incident.

And the guy simply has to have the lowest basketball IQ / instincts / whatever you want to call it. On defense, it's 4 guys and George. On offense, it's 4 guys and George. Maybe he should pursue a career in video game playing or go on a playground dunking tour. All the talk of the work he did in the off-season is apparently just that - talk. He looks more lost on the court than he did his rookie year.

Roy ?? It's the Croshere syndrome. He's got the big contract now and it's gone to his head. He's either relaxed now that he's cashed in or is trying to live up to the $$.

What a waste of an evening going to watch that disaster.

DonSwanson
11-14-2012, 07:39 AM
I really miss Danny Granger--yes, we all do. But I don't miss Danny Granger based on the faulty premise that he is top level talent. I miss Danny Granger because his very presence would mean less playing time for the subpar players like Green and Young who should not be seeing more than 5 to 10 minutes of playing time a night on any respectable playoff team. That's a big part of our problem right there. Getting Granger back in time for the postseason push will by default solve a lot of our problems, even if he won't be back at peak performance.

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 07:51 AM
More than once last nite, he would be completely lost on D, looking around for whomever he was supposed to be guarding and when that guy scored on an easy hoop, he slumped his shoulders and mentally took himself out of the next minute or 2 of the game. Again, not an isolated incident.

I noticed that a couple of times as well.

He can be a good on the ball defender, by I wouldn't call him McKeyesque with his savvy and awareness.

D-BONE
11-14-2012, 07:59 AM
Great point about no legit, consistent jump shooting threats. I complained about this last year. You have to have a couple guys who are dead eye shooters wherever on the floor. And, no, I don't even consider Granger that. Yes, he can shoot the three, but it's more a volume, streak shooting. George, thus far, is in the same category, IMO.

I suspect they thought Green & DJ would add a little here, but again, I don't see true shooting specialists. I see streak shooters. Red hot if they get it going, but equally possible they're ice cold. And West, I must admit, has underwhelmed me even going back some to last season given his rep as automatic from mid-range.

You've got to have guys that can put it in the hoop. In the absence of shooters to help keep the interior more open for post ups and drives, this is what we get. Well, that and an offensive scheme that doesn't seem to help the issue either.

Hypnotiq
11-14-2012, 08:14 AM
Great point about no legit, consistent jump shooting threats. I complained about this last year. You have to have a couple guys who are dead eye shooters wherever on the floor. And, no, I don't even consider Granger that. Yes, he can shoot the three, but it's more a volume, streak shooting. George, thus far, is in the same category, IMO.

I suspect they thought Green & DJ would add a little here, but again, I don't see true shooting specialists. I see streak shooters. Red hot if they get it going, but equally possible they're ice cold. And West, I must admit, has underwhelmed me even going back some to last season given his rep as automatic from mid-range.

You've got to have guys that can put it in the hoop. In the absence of shooters to help keep the interior more open for post ups and drives, this is what we get. Well, that and an offensive scheme that doesn't seem to help the issue either.

There are a few shooters that are free agents in the offseason Kyle Korver, Anthony Morrow etc it would be wise to go after one

Sparhawk
11-14-2012, 08:21 AM
Well, first, management are looking like idiots for their signings this offseason.

However, I put this 95% on the coach. He simply does not have these guys prepared. The offense is a pitiful thing. If it wasn't for the Raptors legs going out in the second half, it would have been a blow out. This game made our defense look better than it really is, and yes, I think the defense is an absolute mirage. It simply isn't nearly as good as stats would suggest. I was at the Atlanta game. Guys were constantly open cause guys are constantly watching the ball and not their man. Atlanta, much like the Pacers, just couldn't hit those wide open looks. That 3OT game caught up with the Raptors and they had one of the worst quarters in the history of the game. That was not due to our amazing defense, I can tell you that. Raptors were just worn out. And the Pacers still lost!

How did Lance disappear after the 1st quarter. He scored 5 quick points. He's been shooting a high %. How does Vogel not try to get Lance more involved? I thought you were supposed to go with the hot hand. Instead, the guys taking the most shots more often than not lately are shooting horrible %s.

Free Lance. Free Plumlee!

I really do like Vogel and I truly believe everyone on this board does too. He's a very likeable guy & he's a player's coach. But he simply doesn't know how to coach yet. He doesn't know the Xs & Os that is needed to win. He doesn't know how to get these guys prepared. He can't figure out how to defend screens/picks. He can't get our own players to set good screens/picks.

Something has to give. For me, it is crystal clear that Vogel simply isn't ready as a head coach yet.

And I don't even think Shaw is the guy. What's his story? What is he contributing in all this? Is he just watching Frank sink the ship? At this point, I can only think he's contributing to this mess, so I'd have to say he isn't ideal to take over. I'd love Sloan or SVG. I love a defensive minded team, but I simply cannot continue to watch that train wreck of an offense.

MillerTime
11-14-2012, 08:49 AM
I could see Walsh looking to make some changes. Even if Granger comes back, there is still a high chance of his knee acting up again.

fwpacerfan
11-14-2012, 08:49 AM
This team has very low basketball IQ which is why they consistently make bad passes and miss assignments on D. There isn't much that can be done at this point - Vogel needs to figure out a rotation and stick to it. Roy needs to start making appts with his shrink again - he looks like the fragile Roy that played for JOB - not the confident Roy of last year.

I think Granger brought more swagger and attitude than I thought and this team is lacking that right now.

xIndyFan
11-14-2012, 09:11 AM
It's interesting that Peck dumped so much on Frank. I was also at the game and thought I saw several changes in the offense. more options that gave guys good shots. The problem was those guys missed those shots. I don't see the Frank hate for this game. He did pretty much all that a coach can do. I have some issues with the amount of time he's playing the guys that can play, but I do understand why he's doing it. At some point, Frank will have pick at least 8 guys and start playing them 35 mpg instead of playing the old starters 40 mpg. Guys are going to wear out and no one will be able to play. At some point he has to start dancing with who he has.

The Danny sucks in spite of the evidence that he doesn't shtick is getting old to me. I didn't count them, but it seemed that Toronto posted our SF's every other time down the court. Linas Klenza, DeRozan, and the dude from Fresno State shoved our wing defenders under the basket and either forced double teams or just shot over them all night. Some day Paul will be a good post defender, but it wasn't last night. Neither was Lance or Gerald. When none of your wing types can guard Linas Klenza, you have real issues. Pretty sure Danny could guard any of those guys pretty easily. Danny's defense is often criticized here, but the Pacers really missed it last night.

Pacers missed Danny Granger last night. Evidently he is the only guy on the team that can do that little mid-post post and get that 13-15 footer Peck talks about. I keep waiting for Paul to start doing that. But evidently he just isn't strong enough yet.

Paul just isn't there yet. His game is better than last years, to be sure. But he seems like the early Jalen Rose in the sense he can do everything ok, but nothing good enough. He is young, and is still getting better, but he still has an almost good enough game. Plus I don't think he's tired enough of getting beat. One of the things that seems to make most good NBA players good players is they really really really don't like losing games. Paul doesn't seem to like losing, but it also doesn't seem to bother him after the games over. A dash of Jeff Foster would help.

Speaking of young. I think that's a contributing factor. The Pacers two most talented players are the youngest. That has to be an issue. When things are going good, young guys play well. When things start to fall apart, young guys get worse. There is a mental toughness that comes from experience.

FWIW, the money spent on George Hill last summer was money well spent. Dude is fearless, unselfish, smart, totally coachable, defends and scores. All he wants to do is win. and is willing to do whatever it takes to win. The more guys you have like that on a team, the better that team is.

The money spent on Roy last summer, meh. I know the team had to pay him. I get that. But right now, Roy is suffering from big contract syndrome. He made lots of money last summer, he's getting lots of props for his community outreach and had professional success last season. As with most guys, he's lost sight of just exactly how hard it is to be a really good NBA player. He's a little out of shape. He's not playing well. He's feeling sorry for himself. Danny is not playing, so he needs to do more to make up for that. The checks keep coming in no matter how he plays. So he's got his head up his :censored: as a result. At some point, he will start to play better. He is a good guy that wants to do well. He's just having trouble handling success. More evidence of the youth of this team. His issues fall into the 'what doesn't kill you just makes you stronger' category. At some point he will emerge from this funk mentally stronger and more professional. But right now, he sucks.

To make a long story short, it's the players, playing bad. When they get tired of losing, they will start playing hard enough to start winning. And it not having Danny Granger on the court. Getting Danny back will fix a host of issues.

duke dynamite
11-14-2012, 09:19 AM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4oazgNYRK1r3jqwro1_500.gif

Unclebuck
11-14-2012, 09:28 AM
I thought in the first half the Pacers defense was awful. It was much better in the second half. (also helped that the Raptors were dead tired in the 4th quarter)

Offense - sure there were problems, but I thought the biggest problem was just missing a ton of very makable shots. I'm not suggesting that the offense doesn't need fixing, but last night if shotmaking would have been normal the pacers win by 10 points.


Peck's quote
His sets are predictable and frankly every team in the league knows them. Tonight Calderon was turning around on defense showing the Raptors what play the Pacers were running by hand signal. In other words whatever Frank held up Jose made sure that his team mates saw it.

Peck, every team knows the other team's plays. I don't consider this a negative factor at all. Defense knows what plays are coming, that is not a big deal. (of course everyone hated JOB's read and react offense system where the defense doesn't know the "play", because they don't run plays) I think every coaches sets are predictable. That isn't the problem at all.

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 09:31 AM
This team has very low basketball IQ which is why they consistently make bad passes and miss assignments on D. There isn't much that can be done at this point - Vogel needs to figure out a rotation and stick to it. Roy needs to start making appts with his shrink again - he looks like the fragile Roy that played for JOB - not the confident Roy of last year.

I think Granger brought more swagger and attitude than I thought and this team is lacking that right now.

Strange how losing a few games at the start of a season can be said to be very low basketball IQ. This is the same group that played so well last year. Did they get dumbed down in the off season? This is just silly....:cool:

owl
11-14-2012, 09:37 AM
This team has very low basketball IQ which is why they consistently make bad passes and miss assignments on D. There isn't much that can be done at this point - Vogel needs to figure out a rotation and stick to it. Roy needs to start making appts with his shrink again - he looks like the fragile Roy that played for JOB - not the confident Roy of last year.

I think Granger brought more swagger and attitude than I thought and this team is lacking that right now.


I would suggest sitting Augustin. Play Ben at back up guard. We need some fire and hustle off the bench.
Additionally Tyler needs to play a lot. He is really starting to defend well. Heck, try him at sf for awhile.

As far as the draft.......sigh.....are we already looking at that?

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/marcus-smart

Justin Tyme
11-14-2012, 09:41 AM
I'm just trying to be patient, but I'm running out of what I have little of... PATIENCE. I'm absolutely frustrated with this team! Granger isn't the reason this team is playing this poorly. Sure, his absence contributes to it, but it isn't the major reason or the sole reason for this team playing so poorly.

The FO should stand up and take a bow for this mess. Walsh overpaid players, pure and simple. He gave contracts for too long of length and some with every year guaranteed. Ridiculous! If this type of tripe continues, the Pacers will be right where they were when he left... hamstrung with terrible contracts until they expire. Mr. Simon, you wanted Walsh, so I hope you like what you getting. The Pacer fans don't. You know the ones who support this team. This is exactly why I was so adament about Walsh not returning to the Pacers.

I'm more disinterested in the Pacers now than I have been in the last 5-6 years. After last season, not in my wildest dreams did I ever think I'd make a statement like that!

Pacerized
11-14-2012, 09:46 AM
Our biggest issue imo and the first that needs to go is Walsh. He needs to be held accountable for squandering our hard earned cap space this summer and killing our chemistry by almost turning in his entire hand with our bench just for the sake of change.
If we had DC, Jones, and Barbosa we win agains last night. If Hibbert were playing like last year we win again last night. I don't know what to do about Hibbert but if we'd just offered Kaman a 3 year 24 mil deal and called it quits we'd have a replacement on hand right now.
Since were stuck with what we have I'd say Vogel needs to be put on notice. A coach has to find a way to get the most out of his players and Vogel just isn't right now. I don't know if a coaching change would help but I'd support it if it were a true upgrade to someone like Sloan.

Sollozzo
11-14-2012, 09:49 AM
It's very depressing when you think about how close we were to getting OJ Mayo for freaking McRoberts. It's even more depressing when you realize that the Mayo/Collison backcourt is help keeping the Mavs' head above water right now. We almost had Mayo and should have never dumped Collison for such a pitiful package.

The Pacers are minus Granger and Collison. We're without two of our best players from last year's team (including the best) and we have no adequate replacements. It's not surprising that we haven't looked near as good as last year. The talent right now is nowhere near what it was a year ago. The Granger situation obviously isn't our fault, but trading Collison sure is. Collison will torch us on Friday night when Dallas rolls into town.

Alabama-Redneck
11-14-2012, 09:51 AM
The one positive from the Raptors game is the Pacers should not be tired for the Bucks game tonight since they didn't use much energy last night. :rolleyes: :D

:cool:

BigRik
11-14-2012, 09:51 AM
Last night, it came down to this: the Pacers could literally not make a shot when they needed to. The Pacers played like crap but were still given many opportunities to take charge in the 4th quarter, but laid an egg. I'm not sure how much is the coach's fault (every team knows every team's sets, or they should). I think the team started believing the hype, that they were a shoe in for the 2 seed in the east, and guess what? They aren't. I don't think the sky is falling (yet), but the team has to start playing well soon, maybe even shoot better than 32%. The opportunity is there, it is up to the Pacers to seize it.

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 10:00 AM
The one positive from the Raptors game is the Pacers should not be tired for the Bucks game tonight since they didn't use much energy last night. :rolleyes: :D

:cool:

Hey!!! :cool:

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 10:02 AM
You guys tell me what's wrong.

I know what's wrong, the Pacers signed a guy that's never going to be dominant to a salary that's meant for players that are above average, close to star or superstar, like I said before, the Pacers FO were/are hoping that a lot of things work in their favor just like they did last year, they were/are hoping that Roy doesn't disappear like he has done pretty much every year for about two or three months.

They were/are hoping that someway somehow Gerald Green becomes the player Boston thought he was going to be five years ago.

They were/are hoping that Paul George becomes a superstar so they could have a chance to make it to the finals with the team they put around him.

They were/are hoping that Ian Mahinmi is not as bad as he was in Dallas and that his hands got better.

They were hoping that Danny's knee issues didn't come back to haunt him.

At the end of the day a good FO is not making moves and signing people out of hope, this is a business you get the known commodity, that's just what good teams do.

D-BONE
11-14-2012, 10:30 AM
I agree with this plus the impact of no Granger, no Collison, and no true sharpshooter. All these things are factors in a complex, yet frustrating equation.

All of this said, the one thing the players can control night in and night out is effort and intensity. Right now, we are not getting it consistently. We're getting two or three guys truly busting their *** for a win each night while the rest just saunter around like zombies out there. That is absolutely unacceptable. Motivation/Desire is just horseshit right now.

Whoops, meant to respond to Big Rik with quote...


Last night, it came down to this: the Pacers could literally not make a shot when they needed to. The Pacers played like crap but were still given many opportunities to take charge in the 4th quarter, but laid an egg. I'm not sure how much is the coach's fault (every team knows every team's sets, or they should). I think the team started believing the hype, that they were a shoe in for the 2 seed in the east, and guess what? They aren't. I don't think the sky is falling (yet), but the team has to start playing well soon, maybe even shoot better than 32%. The opportunity is there, it is up to the Pacers to seize it.

BillS
11-14-2012, 10:30 AM
I really can't believe there are folks climbing on the defense after this game. Yeah, I know, the excuse is that the Raptors were tired, but if someone tells you the opponent will score 74 points - and only 5 in the fourth quarter - how many people here would talk about that as the sign of a poor defense and that the Pacers would lose the game?

Did the Pacers miss open looks? Yes. However, once again they were totally unsuccessful at getting high-percentage shots because the opponent can clog the middle and dare us to make outside jumpers. No one tries to drive the lane and draw a foul - heck, I'd take a turnover on a charge at this point if it would fire someone up. Every shot under the basket is contested by at least 2 defenders - and when it isn't, the posted ballhandler inexplicably passes out to the perimeter for a beautiful brick.

It is 8 games, and I will continue to reserve judgement until at least 10 (with an adjustment at 20), but as of right now this is one of the worst offensive teams I have ever seen.

All that said, we got upgraded to 7th row last night and I saw Tyler make one of the most beautiful defensive plays I've ever seen. I don't remember if it was a rebound or a pass, but he used his left hand to deflect it up and over his man's head then back tapped it with his right and turned to block his man away and continue his dribble up court. It was fantastic.

doctor-h
11-14-2012, 10:34 AM
I know what's wrong, the Pacers signed a guy that's never going to be dominant to a salary that's meant for players that are above average, close to star or superstar, like I said before, the Pacers FO were/are hoping that a lot of things work in their favor just like they did last year, they were/are hoping that Roy doesn't disappear like he has done pretty much every year for about two or three months.

They were/are hoping that someway somehow Gerald Green becomes the player Boston thought he was going to be five years ago.

They were/are hoping that Paul George becomes a superstar so they could have a chance to make it to the finals with the team they put around him.

They were/are hoping that Ian Mahinmi is not as bad as he was in Dallas and that his hands got better.

They were hoping that Danny's knee issues didn't come back to haunt him.

At the end of the day a good FO is not making moves and signing people out of hope, this is a business you get the known commodity, that's just what good teams do.

You are exactly right. The Pacers mindset that certain type players won't come here is just plain wrong. They had a chance in the off season to do something special and blew it big time. We are back to the days of overrating average players and paying them way too much money. No team should be at the top of the cap and not have a go to player on the team. We have a team of nothing more than role players. Not one player makes his teammates better. Augustine looks like he is bored to death. I never thought I would miss Collison but he is far better than Augustine. People need to stop valuing Hibbert because he is a good guy and good in the community. He needs to produce on the floor. He is nowhere near a max player or an all star. We spent alot of money on a big scoreboard apparently to try to draw fans. The players should be drawing fans. GET A STAR who can deliver in the clutch and stop making excuses instead of getting all excited because someone can jump high enough to look down at the basket. They give no points for that, it means nothing.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 10:42 AM
I think it comes down to one thing: out of sync. WHen your offense is out of sync, it makes everyone look bad. I tend to think that we're just a few adjustments, a few games, and some extra work on the practice court away from getting back into an offensive groove. Everything is exacerbated. I just don't think it's as bad as everyone is making it out to be --- BUT, they definitely need to get it figured out quick. We don't have a month to throw away.

PG is only 22, and I just think he's a few years away from being the offensive player people want him to be. He's greatest defensively and on the boards, but mentally he's not there yet in a lot of aspects. He'll intersperse some really stupid plays amongst his good plays.

Lance has developed into a surprise.

Hibbert has been pretty disappointing, but he's also probly one of the biggest products of the team being in sync. WHen the team is in sync, Hibbert looks like a beast, and when it's not, he looks really off.

George Hill, I can't complain about his play. DWest has been decent too, but he's had lapses of focus.

TYLER HANSBROUGH always comes through for this team in its darkest days. I'm tellin ya: in 2010 when Vogel took over and this team was in absolute disarray, playing worse that it is now, it was Tyler Hansbrough who was the ONLY guy who didn't give up and elevated his play. We rode him all the way to the playoffs from the precipice. He's doing it again this year. We look bad, and Tyler is out there busting his balls. I don't care what anyone says, and I especially didn't care for all the "trade him now" posts last year. I like the kid. He had an off year last year, but he is playing the right way again. And it's showing dividends, as Vogel is rewarding him by keeping him in down the stretch, and I really can't argue with the decision.

I think they'll get it worked out.

eric1516
11-14-2012, 10:44 AM
I know what's wrong, the Pacers signed a guy that's never going to be dominant to a salary that's meant for players that are above average, close to star or superstar, like I said before, the Pacers FO were/are hoping that a lot of things work in their favor just like they did last year, they were/are hoping that Roy doesn't disappear like he has done pretty much every year for about two or three months.

They were/are hoping that someway somehow Gerald Green becomes the player Boston thought he was going to be five years ago.

They were/are hoping that Paul George becomes a superstar so they could have a chance to make it to the finals with the team they put around him.

They were/are hoping that Ian Mahinmi is not as bad as he was in Dallas and that his hands got better.

They were hoping that Danny's knee issues didn't come back to haunt him.

At the end of the day a good FO is not making moves and signing people out of hope, this is a business you get the known commodity, that's just what good teams do.

In all the were/are hoping that the FO did they did at least get one right in Lance. Other than that, long-term investment and strategy in our bench was put to the side.

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 10:52 AM
Hey!!! :cool:

It was funny the first time.

You don't own the cool icon, and you certainly don't own cool.

:cool:

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 11:01 AM
I highlighted the several good points in this post.


It's interesting that Peck dumped so much on Frank. I was also at the game and thought I saw several changes in the offense. more options that gave guys good shots. The problem was those guys missed those shots. I don't see the Frank hate for this game. He did pretty much all that a coach can do. I have some issues with the amount of time he's playing the guys that can play, but I do understand why he's doing it. At some point, Frank will have pick at least 8 guys and start playing them 35 mpg instead of playing the old starters 40 mpg. Guys are going to wear out and no one will be able to play. At some point he has to start dancing with who he has.

The Danny sucks in spite of the evidence that he doesn't shtick is getting old to me. I didn't count them, but it seemed that Toronto posted our SF's every other time down the court. Linas Klenza, DeRozan, and the dude from Fresno State shoved our wing defenders under the basket and either forced double teams or just shot over them all night. Some day Paul will be a good post defender, but it wasn't last night. Neither was Lance or Gerald. When none of your wing types can guard Linas Klenza, you have real issues. Pretty sure Danny could guard any of those guys pretty easily. Danny's defense is often criticized here, but the Pacers really missed it last night.

Pacers missed Danny Granger last night. Evidently he is the only guy on the team that can do that little mid-post post and get that 13-15 footer Peck talks about. I keep waiting for Paul to start doing that. But evidently he just isn't strong enough yet.

Paul just isn't there yet. His game is better than last years, to be sure. But he seems like the early Jalen Rose in the sense he can do everything ok, but nothing good enough. He is young, and is still getting better, but he still has an almost good enough game. Plus I don't think he's tired enough of getting beat. One of the things that seems to make most good NBA players good players is they really really really don't like losing games. Paul doesn't seem to like losing, but it also doesn't seem to bother him after the games over. A dash of Jeff Foster would help.

Speaking of young. I think that's a contributing factor. The Pacers two most talented players are the youngest. That has to be an issue. When things are going good, young guys play well. When things start to fall apart, young guys get worse. There is a mental toughness that comes from experience.

FWIW, the money spent on George Hill last summer was money well spent. Dude is fearless, unselfish, smart, totally coachable, defends and scores. All he wants to do is win. and is willing to do whatever it takes to win. The more guys you have like that on a team, the better that team is.

The money spent on Roy last summer, meh. I know the team had to pay him. I get that. But right now, Roy is suffering from big contract syndrome. He made lots of money last summer, he's getting lots of props for his community outreach and had professional success last season. As with most guys, he's lost sight of just exactly how hard it is to be a really good NBA player. He's a little out of shape. He's not playing well. He's feeling sorry for himself. Danny is not playing, so he needs to do more to make up for that. The checks keep coming in no matter how he plays. So he's got his head up his :censored: as a result. At some point, he will start to play better. He is a good guy that wants to do well. He's just having trouble handling success. More evidence of the youth of this team. His issues fall into the 'what doesn't kill you just makes you stronger' category. At some point he will emerge from this funk mentally stronger and more professional. But right now, he sucks.

To make a long story short, it's the players, playing bad. When they get tired of losing, they will start playing hard enough to start winning. And it not having Danny Granger on the court. Getting Danny back will fix a host of issues.

Although, I do think Lance can hit the 15 footer post up you mentioned that only Danny pulls off. He just needs the green light.

*astrisk*
11-14-2012, 11:01 AM
I think back to last year when we signed Barbosa and Frank said it took like 5 minutes to teach him the offense. Now, I know he was somewhat joking, but the offense is too simple.

Hibbert and Paul George were given too much credit for our success last season, then they let it give them the big head. They spend too much time worrying about their image. (I liked the flashmob deal as much as the next person, but Roy was working on that every day after training camp workouts.) Oh, and how dare you guys admit to playing video games every waking moment of your day outside of practice and games, especially right now... I'm not too old to get gaming. But **** that on the poor timing.

Lance, as I said during summer league is the only player on our team with Superstar Swagger. He is too reckless and I believe lacks the intelligence to be a star in the NBA, but he has the Lebron James, "I Got This" mentality and fire that NONE of our other players (besides MAYBE DWest) have. I still like the innocence of his character, but he reminds me of a middle schooler everytime I hear him talk. With that being said, he's currently my favorite player and Im rooting for him.

Collison brought a very cool and consistent demeanor to our team. He was good like that. Helped us gel and keep level heads. His leadership is sorely missed and we currently have nothing like him as replacement.

Just my own random thoughts and observations

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 11:06 AM
Since game 3 of the Heat series, the Pacers are 3-8 with an average of 88.5 ppg in that stretch. And that average is with the help of the 3OT win against the Kings where we scored 106pts.

Anybody that doesn't think we need some changes that either equates to another offensive option or a new offensive game plan, is silly.

Since86
11-14-2012, 11:07 AM
The Raptors shot 36% for the game, and you guys are talking about defense? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



It just looks like the pressure is starting to get to them offensively. West and Roy missing bunnies over and over again is what killed the Pacers. You get points out of those shots, and then the game starts picking up at other spots. They're playing with zero offensive confidence.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 11:09 AM
The Raptors shot 36% for the game, and you guys are talking about defense? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



It just looks like the pressure is starting to get to them offensively. West and Roy missing bunnies over and over again is what killed the Pacers. You get points out of those shots, and then the game starts picking up at other spots. They're playing with zero offensive confidence.

Those bunny layups need to be DUNKS from our bigs. But our bigs aren't athletic enough to dunk when they need to. It's okay to have one big that can't finish in the paint consistently, but when you have two..it totally kills all offensive momentum.

Pacer Fan
11-14-2012, 11:17 AM
I say Granger and tough pills would give us only the one loss against the Spurs.

Nuntius
11-14-2012, 11:44 AM
The Pacers mindset that certain type players won't come here is just plain wrong.

Why would a star come in Indiana? To play in front of 12,000 - 14,000 people?

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 11:45 AM
It was funny the first time.

You don't own the cool icon, and you certainly don't own cool.

:cool:


I certainly meant for it to be funny..... I actually do own cool if not the cool icon.....:cool: There is nothing like a few losses and a slump to have the overboard Pacers' fans who predicted a 60 win season get grumpy with everyone and want to fire their coach...... Most of you are blaming the team for your overblown expectations..... I suggest the proper icon for you would be :dance:

Rogco
11-14-2012, 01:00 PM
I think you are putting to much of the blame on Frank for this loss. Honestly, this team could have won by 10-15 points if it had just hit the easy shots in front of the rim. Hibbert had one of the worst games I've seen offensively. Between him and West, I bet we hit about 25% of shots that normal teams (or at normal times) you would hit about 65% of the time. Between the blown lay-ups, and Paul George having no ability to drive with the basketball, last night was just putrid to watch. Those three were just awful.

I saw a post defending George, but I've been very disappointed with him. If he's not hitting open jumpers, he has no offensive game. The rebounding and defense have been solid to good, but the offensive output just isn't there.

Peck
11-14-2012, 01:25 PM
Guys I don't think I was being overly harsh on Frank, I think I was just trying to make sure he shared in the blame.

I 100% agree that its not his fault that players are missing wide open shots at first he turned and smiled at Burke when Roy missed his first couple of bunnies after the half because those were plays designed to get Roy those shots. But by about the 4th missed wide open shot he was no longer smiling.

It's a combo in my opinion, the players aren't hitting the shots that they do get and Frank is not designing enough screens & off ball movement to get open shots that the guards and small forwards can hit.

At the end of the day I want to agree with the poster above though, Danny Granger being healthy (yes I know Vnzla81 will make sure to tell us that this is no longer the case and he will be correct) would solve most of this. I also beleive that had Danny been here we would have one loss to the Spurs and that is it. Maybe Atlanta but I think he would have kept them alive myself.

Danny Granger is that good, this is more obvious now than ever. Heck the voice of the NBA Ernie Johnson called him a superstar last night, now I disagree with that btw because LeBron, Durrant, etc. are superstars and Danny is in no way near them.

But I think he is tons better than people around here ever gave him credit for.

That being said to paraphrase Rick Patino "Danny Granger isn't walking through that door". So other players have to up thier play.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 01:43 PM
If you need a healthy and back to his old 08/09 self Danny Granger to beat the Raptors, Bobcats and scrub teams you have a huge problem , yes maybe the record would look better but for what? so the Pacers can give us fake hope and get destroyed on the playoffs?

A team that's supposed to be a championship contender doesn't go to the toilet as soon as one or their best players gets hurt, just so you know SA is 7-1 and Manu has been injured and is playing limited time, according to some here they should be 1-7 because they have an excuse but guess what? Championship contenders don't make excuses.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 01:49 PM
By the way Chicago is 4 and 3 and they are missing Derrick Rose, New York is 5 and 0 and they are missing Amare, Philly is 4 and 3 and they are missing Bynum, Minnesota is missing Rubio, Love and Varea and they are 5 and 2, I could keep going but I already made my point.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 01:53 PM
I don't think anyone is making excuses. I think everyone here is in agreeance that we haven't played well, point blank.

But that is something that happens.

Last year, we were the 3rd best team in the east and 5th overall. And yet:

- We went through a 1-6 stretch in MID-FEBRUARY.
- We went through a 2-6 stretch as late as MARCH.

And we did alright.

So I'm not freaking out about a 3-5 start in November.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 01:57 PM
...there was no season last november....

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 01:58 PM
It's uh....... November right now.

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 02:01 PM
I certainly meant for it to be funny..... I actually do own cool if not the cool icon.....:cool: There is nothing like a few losses and a slump to have the overboard Pacers' fans who predicted a 60 win season get grumpy with everyone and want to fire their coach...... Most of you are blaming the team for your overblown expectations..... I suggest the proper icon for you would be :dance:
I'm a sunshiner? You've opined wrong. Again.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 02:01 PM
It's uh....... November right now.

My point is you're comparing this season to last year when there was no november for the pacers to struggle through, plus the roster was also very different. They didn't have backup PG issues or a gaping hole at SF.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 02:02 PM
I'm making a point that teams go through lulls, even good teams.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 02:04 PM
I'm making a point that teams go through lulls, even good teams.

Absolutely. That doesn't make them irrelevant.

Since86
11-14-2012, 02:05 PM
Absolutely. That doesn't make them irrelevant.

Doesn't mean the struggles are what the team actually is either. That's the whole point....

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 02:07 PM
I made my point Kstat lol.... not sure what tangent you're goin' down, but a 3-5 lull in November, to me, isn't near as troublesome as a 1-6 or 2-6 lull in Feb or March. Lulls happen; it's what's happening. We didn't blow our team up last March --- we adjusted and made a nice playoff run.

RWB
11-14-2012, 02:12 PM
I made my point Kstat lol.... not sure what tangent you're goin' down, but a 3-5 lull in November, to me, isn't near as troublesome as a 1-6 or 2-6 lull in Feb or March. Lulls happen; it's what's happening. We didn't blow our team up last March --- we adjusted and made a nice playoff run.

I thought the adjustment was George Hill healed up after being out. Just goes to show like this year how fragile this team was/is.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 02:13 PM
Well Granger could also return this year. Think he's due back by the end of January? And this team will figure out how to win while he's gone. So we're lookin at a sort of similar "shot in the arm" down the stretch.

Either way I'm not writing this team off after 8 games. I stand by that. I'll re-evaluate things in the middle of December, but as of right now, it's just silly to overreact. It's only been 8 games.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 02:14 PM
I made my point Kstat lol.... not sure what tangent you're goin' down, but a 3-5 lull in November, to me, isn't near as troublesome as a 1-6 or 2-6 lull in Feb or March. Lulls happen; it's what's happening. We didn't blow our team up last March --- we adjusted and made a nice playoff run.

First off, I'm the one person in this thread not going on a tangent.

Second, this team is not last year's team. This isn't even the same season as last season. That's the point I was trying to make.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 02:16 PM
I made my point Kstat lol.... not sure what tangent you're goin' down, but a 3-5 lull in November, to me, isn't near as troublesome as a 1-6 or 2-6 lull in Feb or March. Lulls happen; it's what's happening. We didn't blow our team up last March --- we adjusted and made a nice playoff run.

Last year one of the Pacers best players was not out for must of the season(maybe out for the season) so you keep comparing last year to this one all you want but we are in a different year and a different situation.

By the way I expect the excuse making by February and March from the sunshiners either way.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 02:16 PM
I know it's not last year's team. My point doesn't apply to just last year's team. It's something that all teams go through.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 02:18 PM
Last year one of the Pacers best players was not out for must of the season(maybe out for the season) so you keep comparing last year to this one all you want but we are in a different year and a different situation.

By the way I expect the excuse making by February and March from the sunshiners either way.

No, our best player wasn't out --- our 3rd or 4th best player went down, and it threw our team into an almost month-long slide. So what makes you think losing Granger would have zero impact on us? You're actually proving *my* point. Granger is due back this year.

I predict the opposite of you --- I expect the Debbie Downers to not be so squeaky come Feb or March.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 02:23 PM
I know it's not last year's team. My point doesn't apply to just last year's team. It's something that all teams go through.

"All teams" don't go through losing one of their best players, "All teams" don't go into fetal position once they lose their best player, all I'm hearing is excuses.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 02:24 PM
All I'm hearing is a buncha whining.

CableKC
11-14-2012, 02:25 PM
I could see Walsh looking to make some changes. Even if Granger comes back, there is still a high chance of his knee acting up again.
Unless the change makes sense and is considered "comprable to decent" value....I'd be afraid that any noticeable change would be a "kneejerk" reaction.

I don't like where we are now....but I also know that there has been significant changes to the lineup that could contribute to the lack of chemistry and continuity to the Team. This doesn't mean that Hibbert's lack of Production and Vogel's Coaching hasn't contributed to our losses.....it just means that I don't think that making further changes to the lineup is the answer.

Since86
11-14-2012, 02:28 PM
"All teams" don't go through losing one of their best players, "All teams" don't go into fetal position once they lose their best player, all I'm hearing is excuses.

And yet a Kobe Bryant led Lakers team has a worse record than the Pacers right now. Screaming "blow it up" after 8 games is the definition of kneejerk reactions.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 02:39 PM
And yet a Kobe Bryant led Lakers team has a worse record than the Pacers right now. Screaming "blow it up" after 8 games is the definition of kneejerk reactions.

Well they didn't blow it up but they fired their coach and made some s*** happen, I also expect them to make some trades to get better and you are wrong they don't have a worse record than the Pacers.

Since86
11-14-2012, 02:52 PM
Well they didn't blow it up but they fired their coach and made some s*** happen, I also expect them to make some trades to get better and you are wrong they don't have a worse record than the Pacers.

Nope, they just went into the fetal position, which is something you said good teams don't do. So Kobe Bryant/Dwight Howard lead team can't even live up to your unreasonable expectations.

Sorry, they don't have a worse record, they have the same exact record. That completely changes the point.

A team loses their best player, and is trying to get an entirely new bench comfortable with each other? Doesn't take much to figure out that there are going to be some early bumps in the road.

RWB
11-14-2012, 03:01 PM
A team loses their best player, and is trying to get an entirely new bench comfortable with each other? Doesn't take much to figure out that there are going to be some early bumps in the road.

Since, Danny only played one preseason game you would have thought maybe they could have been slightly a head of the curve too my friend. Unexpected should have been 'oh crap he got hurt during the last preseason game' not when he was out the entire time.

Peck
11-14-2012, 03:09 PM
There is nothing wrong with disagreements, but we will keep the individual insults out of this from both sides.

This is not a request btw.

Since86
11-14-2012, 03:13 PM
Since, Danny only played one preseason game you would have thought maybe they could have been slightly a head of the curve too my friend. Unexpected should have been 'oh crap he got hurt during the last preseason game' not when he was out the entire time.

Had they known he was going to be out for 3months, then yeah. But it looks like to me that they thought Danny was going to be in the lineup, and they tried to keep the plan as close to the original as possible.

Once you found out he was going to be out an extended period of time, then you turn the page and start looking for bigger adjustments.

CableKC
11-14-2012, 03:14 PM
Nope, they just went into the fetal position, which is something you said good teams don't do. So Kobe Bryant/Dwight Howard lead team can't even live up to your unreasonable expectations.

Sorry, they don't have a worse record, they have the same exact record. That completely changes the point.

A team loses their best player, and is trying to get an entirely new bench comfortable with each other? Doesn't take much to figure out that there are going to be some early bumps in the road.
I agree with this. Unless we are able to make a move that wouldn't affect the primary core and simply move some of the "end of the bench" Players....I don't want to make a move...just to make a move out of sheer panic.

Losing sucks....but let's not pretend that throwing 4 new Players into the rotation isn't going to make a difference to the Team and that losing a key Player in the Starting Lineup ( which affects the rotation SIGNIFICANTLY in the 1st and 2nd unit ). Now, I hate that Hibbert is doing his best impression of Andres Biedrins and that IMHO PG is not adjusting well to his new role on the Team as the 2nd/3rd scorer on the offensive end.....but these are issues....just like the addition of DJ/Mahinmi/Green and ( to a certain extent ) Lance to the rotation....should HOPEFULLY be resolved over time.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 03:19 PM
Nope, they just went into the fetal position, which is something you said good teams don't do. So Kobe Bryant/Dwight Howard lead team can't even live up to your unreasonable expectations.

Sorry, they don't have a worse record, they have the same exact record. That completely changes the point.


Once again I'm going to be accused of anti Pacers or whatever, for example the Lakers not only have been playing better teams than the Pacers, they also made some trades in the off season bringing two new starters, one of those new starters is recovering from a back injury and the other one got to only play few games before getting injured and I'm not even talking about the system the clown of Mike Brown was trying to implement.

Either way at the end of the day I expect a team with Nash,Kobe,Gasol and Howard to go far, I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

Now lets compare that to the Pacers, the Pacers front office has been telling us that "continuation" should give this team the advantage and they should have been able to hit the ground running even without Danny, but guess what? That's not happening, yes they brought some new people for the bench and so far they have been garbage.

Again "continuation" is the word of the day, "continuation" is what they keep using in every interview, "continuation" on the system, "continuation" with the same coaches, they said that they didn't make any trades in the starting unit because they wanted yes you guess it, "continuation" in the starting unit, the Pacers only change has been to move Lance to the starting unit that's it.

I'm sorry but using the Lakers to excuse the Pacers garbage play is ridiculous.

spazzxb
11-14-2012, 03:20 PM
At least we have had the colts to be proud of. Hope they start getting there shots to fall soon.

Since86
11-14-2012, 03:22 PM
Both West and Roy are shooting the worst percentages of their careers. The Pacers have lost 4 games now by a combined 8pts. Maybe, just maybe the loses are coming because the players are playing below their standard, as opposed to this being the standard?

People just need to chill out for a bit. West missing point blank shot after point black shot is the exception, not the rule.

RWB
11-14-2012, 03:24 PM
[QUOTE=Since86;1528786
Once you found out he was going to be out an extended period of time, then you turn the page and start looking for bigger adjustments.[/QUOTE]

Maybe a new training staff because someone sure wasn't on top of this one.

Since86
11-14-2012, 03:25 PM
Now lets compare that to the Pacers, the Pacers front office has been telling us that "continuation" should give this team the advantage and they should have been able to hit the ground running even without Danny, but guess what? That's not happening, yes they brought some new people for the bench and so far they have been garbage.

Again "continuation" is the word of the day, "continuation" is what they keep using in every interview, "continuation" on the system, "continuation" with the same coaches, they said that they didn't make any trades in the starting unit because they wanted yes you guess it, "continuation" in the starting unit, the Pacers only change has been to move Lance to the starting unit that's it.

You think this team is a "continuation?" Having three different starters in for your missing best player. 4 brand spanking new bench players, out of 5.

The Pacers roster has 14 players on it, and out of that 14 only 4 played significant minutes last year....


The whole "continuation" angle was WITH Danny. That's the whole point of pointing out that he's not there.

Unclebuck
11-14-2012, 03:26 PM
You really think it is fair to compare the Pacers to the Lakers? I mean they are both in the NBA, they both have the color gold in their uniforms and their nicknames sounds alike - other than that, they have nothing in common

Since86
11-14-2012, 03:32 PM
You really think it is fair to compare the Pacers to the Lakers? I mean they are both in the NBA, they both have the color gold in their uniforms and their nicknames sounds alike - other than that, they have nothing in common

Sure they do. They both have 3-5 records, to start off with.

Pacer Fan
11-14-2012, 03:33 PM
Jobs will be lost if Pacers play like crap and lose against the Bucks and Mavs.

Eleazar
11-14-2012, 03:33 PM
Sure they do. They both have 3-5 records, to start off with.

And neither team has played up to expectations.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 03:35 PM
I agree with this. Unless we are able to make a move that wouldn't affect the primary core and simply move some of the "end of the bench" Players....I don't want to make a move...just to make a move out of sheer panic.

Losing sucks....but let's not pretend that throwing 4 new Players into the rotation isn't going to make a difference to the Team and that losing a key Player in the Starting Lineup ( which affects the rotation SIGNIFICANTLY in the 1st and 2nd unit ). Now, I hate that Hibbert is doing his best impression of Andres Biedrins and that IMHO PG is not adjusting well to his new role on the Team as the 2nd/3rd scorer on the offensive end.....but these are issues....just like the addition of DJ/Mahinmi/Green and ( to a certain extent ) Lance to the rotation....should HOPEFULLY be resolved over time.


I don't think anybody is suggesting bringing in an entirely new team, as much as people are suggesting moving a piece or two for a piece or two that brings us what we need. Yes when you trade one piece for another, you're opening a new hole within your team BUT even when DG was healthy, we've been looking to add another perimeter offensive threat. Now with Granger out, our offensive woes are magnified.

We've had these types of issues for about as long as I can remember and last year was the year where we seemed to finally break through. Now just a few months later, we're having the same discussions all over again, just about a new slew of players. No we don't need to blow it up, but I think a lot of ppl feel like something needs to be done before we completely un-do what we did last season in the playoffs. (Think GS warriors following that cinderella playoff run that bottomed out the next season)

IDK if its a trade, coaching change, lineup change, or whatever else, the fact that we've been a pretty miserable offensive team since game 3 against the Heat shows me that this is a trend that is NOT likely to go away via "growth" from within, nor the return of DG.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 03:37 PM
You think this team is a "continuation?" Having three different starters in for your missing best player. 4 brand spanking new bench players, out of 5.

The Pacers roster has 14 players on it, and out of that 14 only 4 played significant minutes last year....


The whole "continuation" angle was WITH Danny. That's the whole point of pointing out that he's not there.

The starting unit minus Danny is a continuation, teams that have been playing together for a while are not supposed to look like crap, yes we have some new players but again I don't see how the new players are affecting Roy and his ability to contribute, how many of us wanted Vogel to keep Tyler in instead of Roy last night? are the new players affecting Roy and the team in general? I don't think so.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 03:45 PM
The starting unit minus Danny is a continuation, teams that have been playing together for a while are not supposed to look like crap, yes we have some new players but again I don't see how the new players are affecting Roy and his ability to contribute, how many of us wanted Vogel to keep Tyler in instead of Roy last night? are the new players affecting Roy and the team in general? I don't think so.

You COULD add PG to that statement as well. He hasn't played particularly well offensively either since BEFORE the playoffs last year.

Bball
11-14-2012, 03:50 PM
Jobs will be lost if Pacers play like crap and lose against the Bucks and Mavs.

TPTB don't operate that way. We aren't the Lakers.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:03 PM
If this team was the exact same team as last year and we started out 3-5, I would be able to swallow all the "just wait they will figure it out" arguments, but the fact is this is a very new team than last year's team. The bench is 100% different and our best all around player isn't playing, I don't believe this is a "lull" I just think this is a team that has flaws offensively that are very, very bad. If we can start getting to the line more our D can probably get us a .500 record, but that's about it.

Since86
11-14-2012, 04:11 PM
What?

If this years team was the same exact team, you'd believe that it was just a lull, but because this team is a new team, you think it means they're just this bad? That's like the exact opposite of how I look at it.

If this team was the same team from last year, and stumbled out of the gate, I'd be questioning what's going on. But the fact that it's a completely brand new bench, and missing their best player, gives me pause.



So do people really think that the Roy and DWest that we've seen are the actual Roy and David? They've never shot this badly, even during their rookie seasons. It's pretty obvious, to me atleast, that the players are playing badly as opposed to playing average. The difference is night and day between the two. This Pacers team shouldn't be 3-5. They've played just downright awful and 4 of their losses is by a combined 8pts. Roy and West just shoot their career average and all those 4 losses are probably wins, and we're talking about how gutsy this team is for finding ways to win without their best player. 8pts the difference between thinking this season is already over and thinking they're making things happen. 8 points.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:11 PM
And you can't see that having our best player and an almost completely new bench doesn't require a lil adjustment and transition period?

Kstat
11-14-2012, 04:15 PM
And you can't see that having our best player and an almost completely new bench doesn't require a lil adjustment and transition period?

Roy is supposed to be your best player. That's what you're paying him $60 million for.

Granger is the best scorer on the team, yes, but he didn't suddenly become a max player when he got hurt.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:17 PM
They both make $13mill this year, I don't see Hibbert as "clearly" our best player. I see him and Danny as 1a and 1b.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:17 PM
And you can't see that having our best player and an almost completely new bench doesn't require a lil adjustment and transition period?

I'll just ignore the terrible body language from the dude making 14 million this year and I'll just ignore the fact that really the only "adjustment" we've seen so far is swapping around who starts at the two guard.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:18 PM
They both make $13mill this year, I don't see Hibbert as "clearly" our best player. I see him and Danny as 1a and 1b.

Do you think Danny's body language would be this bad if he didn't have Roy?

Roy is the highest paid player on the team and other than doing a gangnam style video he doesn't really act like it.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 04:19 PM
They both make $13mill this year, I don't see Hibbert as "clearly" our best player. I see him and Danny as 1a and 1b.

Then you're essentially throwing in the towel on Roy. He can't be just another good guy on the team after signing that deal.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:19 PM
What terrible body language are you seeing? Looks like regular ol Roy to me.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:20 PM
Then you're essentially giving up on Roy. He can't be just another good guy on the team after signing that deal.

I'm not giving up on him. Where do you get this logic? I said we lost our best player. You can't argue that Danny is at least 1a or 1b on this team.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:20 PM
What terrible body language are you seeing? Looks like regular ol Roy to me.

Dude wouldn't even get in the huddle last night at the end of the game. Just kind of stood there.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 04:21 PM
I'm not giving up on him. Where do you get this logic? I said we lost our best player. You can't argue that Danny is at least 1a or 1b on this team.

The logic is the only reasoning behind matching portlands offer was that he was Indiana's franchise guy they could not do without. Now all of a sudden they're 3-5 without granger and Roy is just a passenger on the train?

Last year you could say that. Now it's his team. Roy signed up for this when he took the money.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:22 PM
And?

Since86
11-14-2012, 04:22 PM
I'll just ignore the terrible body language from the dude making 14 million this year and I'll just ignore the fact that really the only "adjustment" we've seen so far is swapping around who starts at the two guard.

What adjustments do you make when your post player is just missing shots?

EDIT: Read that wrong. Nevermind.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:23 PM
The logic is the only reasoning behind matching portlands offer was that he was Indiana's franchise guy they could not do without. Now all of a sudden they're 3-5 without granger and Roy is just a passenger on the train?

Yea, Kstat, that's exactly what I said. By saying that Danny Granger is our best player, I basically said Roy is a passenger on a train.

Wtf are you talking about.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:23 PM
And?

We were down by 2-4 points the last minute or so, and every timeout Roy just stood there. No passion. No fire. I'm sorry but that is not same 'ol Roy. That is senior year at Georgetown Roy maybe, but that is not the guy we watched last year.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 04:24 PM
What terrible body language are you seeing? Looks like regular ol Roy to me.

Look at him every time he misses one of those bunnies, clapping his hands in frustration, grabbing his head, committing stupid/frustration fouls like the one he had yesterday on Valanciunas. Then when he went to the bench he had his head/face in his hands, etc. His body language is NOT positive right now.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:25 PM
What adjustments do you make when your post player is just missing shots?

I'm not the one preaching on waiting for adjustments.

Since86
11-14-2012, 04:25 PM
Now all of a sudden they're 3-5 without granger and Roy is just a passenger on the train?

Same logic can be applied to Danny. He's been their undeniably best player for the past 4 seasons and he's just a passenger on the train?

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 04:25 PM
We were down by 2-4 points the last minute or so, and every timeout Roy just stood there. No passion. No fire. I'm sorry but that is not same 'ol Roy. That is senior year at Georgetown Roy maybe, but that is not the guy we watched last year.

Definitely not what you want to see from someone that should be a leader on this team.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:25 PM
He's not happy with his play. You guys are really stretching here.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:26 PM
He's not happy with his play. You guys are really stretching here.

Ok. I'm glad he's not "happy". I think it's more likely he was pouting that Tyler was playing instead of him.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:27 PM
Omg you guys are all a buncha of drama queens. Let's not invent crap that isn't true or substantial.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
Yea, Kstat, that's exactly what I said. By saying that Danny Granger is our best player, I basically said Roy is a passenger on a train.

Wtf are you talking about.

You keep saying "were 3-5 because we don't have our best player." this basically absolves hibbert of any and all responsibility because it implies that the pacers are only as good as granger.

That would be acceptable from a team standpoint if Roy hibbert wasn't re-signed to a max deal on the premise that he was supposed to be the franchise player. If the pacers are struggling and hibbert isn't carrying his weight, that is on him. Not granger, not frank, not management.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
Omg you guys are all a buncha of drama queens. Let's not invent crap that isn't true or substantial.

You have just as much proof that Roy's bad body language was because of his bad play as I do that it was about Tyler playing the clutch minutes instead of him.

BPump33
11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
He's not happy with his play. You guys are really stretching here.

I think we can all agree that Roy wears his emotions on his sleeve. That's just who he is. We knew that before and after the contract. When the shots start falling, and they will, those emotions will help fire the team up just like they did last year. Right now, it sucks. Hopefully it turns around soon.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:29 PM
You keep saying "were 3-5 because we don't have our best player." this basically absolves hibbert of any and all responsibility because it implies that the pacers are only as good as granger.

Absolutely incorrect. My comment was about DANNY GRANGER. Nothing to do with Roy Hibbert.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 04:29 PM
Same logic can be applied to Danny. He's been their undeniably best player for the past 4 seasons and he's just a passenger on the train?

He isn't the same guy he was before. If you'd like to argue that he's going to get a max deal himself next summer, then you have a case.

Maybe the pacers rebound or hibbert rebounds from this and has a great season. I'm just saying it doesn't look good for hibbert right now and it's gong to snowball fast if he doesn't start playing like a franchise center.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:30 PM
You have just as much proof that Roy's bad body language was because of his bad play as I do that it was about Tyler playing the clutch minutes instead of him.

This all stemmed from me saying Granger was our best player, and he's out because of injury and the team has to adjust to his loss.

Somehow it turned into a insane conversation about Roy's body language and being mad about Hansbrough. You gotta be kiddin me.

This is classic "reading too much into nothing." Drama drama drama. Knee-jerk reactions. It's all here a-plenty

fwpacerfan
11-14-2012, 04:31 PM
Strange how losing a few games at the start of a season can be said to be very low basketball IQ. This is the same group that played so well last year. Did they get dumbed down in the off season? This is just silly....:cool:

This isn't the same team as last year - to say that it is is silly. :cool: There are several additions and subtractions to this roster and they are making a lot of mistakes.

My hope is that players start hitting the open shots. The team is getting good looks - they are just missing them. I'm also glad that the FO didn't sign a big name FA many wanted last summer with the initials EG. Could you imagine that...

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:32 PM
This all stemmed from me saying Granger was our best player, and he's out because of injury and the team has to adjust to his loss.

Somehow it turned into a insane conversation about Roy's body language and being mad about Hansbrough. You gotta be kiddin me.

This is classic "reading too much into nothing." Drama drama drama. Knee-jerk reactions. It's all here a-plenty

huh? You and I started out by talking about how I should give this team more time. I was never really talking about Danny vs. Roy.

If we are this dependent on Danny, then Roy was not worth $14 million. So if that is how you want to spin it then so be it.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 04:33 PM
If we are this dependent on Danny, then Roy was not worth $14 million. So if that is how you want to spin it then so be it.

This.

RWB
11-14-2012, 04:33 PM
I'm also glad that the FO didn't sign a big name FA many wanted last summer with the initials EG. Could you imagine that...

Yeah the Pacers could be 3 - 5... sorry, couldn't resist.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:33 PM
No "huh" --- that's what happened. I said this team has lost it's best player and has a new bench, and needed a transition period. Next thing I know I'm being told Roy is our best player, that I think he's a "passenger on a train" (which is absolutely untrue), that his body language is bad, and he's mad about Hansbrough.

You tell me what happened. I never once mentioned Roy except to respond to people.

Since86
11-14-2012, 04:35 PM
He isn't the same guy he was before. If you'd like to argue that he's going to get a max deal himself next summer, then you have a case.

Clearly. But Roy's contract wasn't based purely on production either, but rather projection. So saying Roy is the best player, because he got the biggest contract, doesn't fit either.

Whether or not you think Danny is the best player, he's been the most important player. Look at the way the Pacers crumbled in the playoffs when he went down with his ankle injury.

Danny's absence from the team isn't just some footnote.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:37 PM
It's all a bunch of tangents. I'm going with my company line, as always. Lulls are going to happen. We have a new bench. We have our top guy out. It's not the end of the world. Not interested in arguing semantics.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:37 PM
No "huh" --- that's what happened. I said this team has lost it's best player and has a new bench, and needed a transition period. Next thing I know I'm being told Roy is our best player, that I think he's a "passenger on a train" (which is absolutely untrue), that his body language is bad, and he's mad about Hansbrough.

You tell me what happened. I never once mentioned Roy except to respond to people.

I brought up Roy as a reason not to wait on the team. His body language is horrid. Peck mentioned it in the original post of this very thread. That is completely relevant to whether or not I should be waiting on this team to get better.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:38 PM
If you don't wanna wait, then don't. We'll cya when the team "meets your standards again". Lol.

Since86
11-14-2012, 04:39 PM
I brought up Roy as a reason not to wait on the team. His body language is horrid. Peck mentioned it in the original post of this very thread. That is completely relevant to whether or not I should be waiting on this team to get better.

Roy having horrible body language and missing easy shots should be evidence that the Pacers aren't playing as well as they should be, not evidence that this is what they are. :twocents:

I think we all can agree Roy has been bad.

Kstat
11-14-2012, 04:39 PM
There's nothing wrong with saying the pacers aren't as good without granger.

Likewise, Roy can't get away with going down with the ship. He thinks he's a franchise type center, then he has to start paying like one. That has nothing to do with granger being hurt.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:40 PM
If you don't wanna wait, then don't. We'll cya when the team "meets your standards again". Lol.

I don't understand what your issue is here, are you really happy with how the team is performing? What's the magic number of games before you want to see changes? I didn't know there was a rule for that, please enlighten me. We're almost 1/8 of the way through the season, while not a huge amount, that's not exactly small either.

I'll be more than happy if we suddenly rip of an 8 game winning streak, but I don't see it happening right now.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:40 PM
I completely agree with that Kstat. I never said he wasn't responsible.

He's not playing well, as is most of the team, that much has been discussed to death. I still think they'll turn things around.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:41 PM
I don't understand what your issue is here, are you really happy with how the team is performing? What's the magic number of games before you want to see changes? I didn't know there was a rule for that, please enlighten me. We're almost 1/8 of the way through the season, while not a huge amount, that's not exactly small either.

I'll be more than happy if we suddenly rip of an 8 game winning streak, but I don't see it happening right now.

I have zero issue with the team. I watch my Pacers almost every game, if I can't go, been doing so for 10 years, and I'll love 'em win or lose. My only issue is the Chicken Littles.

cdash
11-14-2012, 04:41 PM
I'm just going to have fun ripping on how crappy this team is until they get good again.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:44 PM
I have zero issue with the team. I watch my Pacers almost every game, if I can't go, been doing so for 10 years, and I'll love 'em win or lose. My only issue is the Chicken Littles.

How is it chicken littles to say we are playing bad and we don't see the team getting better as it's currently set up? That is just as valid of an opinion as saying that the team is going to recover just fine. Saying stuff like "chicken little" or branding epople as "sunshiners" or "homers" does nothing to actually further discussion.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:47 PM
Because every one of you are making ridiculous claims (and I'm generalizing) but the overall tone of the forum the last week or so has been:

- Fire Vogel
- Trade PG and Hibbert
- DC was a god, we f'd that up
- There's no way we'll improve, we're gonna remain exactly as we are now.

And it's all a buncha silliness. Everyone is freaking out, and it's waaaaaay to early to be freaking out. That is the definition of Chicken Little. The sky is still up there.

Major Cold
11-14-2012, 04:50 PM
Alright. I have hold off on making any knee jerk reactions and comment on them. Things will get better, but not seed 2 better. Or 3. Or 4. Maybe 6.

They have to. There is no way this roster is worse than any of the ones that JOB had. NO WAY!!!!

Offensively we have to hit shots eventually. We have to move the ball more. But if we do, we turn it over. We have to shot off screens more. We have to use the baseline to free up our shooters. We have to get the ball out of PG hands and have him a set shooter.

We have to do something besides start Lance. The system is down. It needs something.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:51 PM
Because every one of you are making ridiculous claims (and I'm generalizing) but the overall tone of the forum the last week or so has been:

- Fire Vogel
- Trade PG and Hibbert
- DC was a god, we f'd that up
- There's no way we'll improve, we're gonna remain exactly as we are now.

And it's all a buncha silliness.

You're exaggerating all of the points that have been made.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:55 PM
You're exaggerating all of the points that have been made.

Nooooo, really? I said I was generalizing, lol.

But just for ***** and giggles, I present to you:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?77062-Pacers-Raptors-postgame-thread

One thread, in which almost every one of those statements were actually said in one way or the other.

RWB
11-14-2012, 04:55 PM
Kind of interesting that Austin Croshere made a comment that the Pacers seemed to play uninspired during halftime last night. And Brian Shaw confirmed they had to chew their collective @sses too.

A 3 win team this early in the season needs a fire lit to motivate them? Heck yeah there is more going on here than just missing Danny.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 04:55 PM
Ok we are all chicken littles, and you are a brainless homer. Gee this is a fun game. What a great debate we are having. You are basically saying that our opinions are irrelevant because you believe we are overreacting, that is not a good place to have a real conversation.

cdash
11-14-2012, 04:56 PM
Because every one of you are making ridiculous claims (and I'm generalizing) but the overall tone of the forum the last week or so has been:

- Fire Vogel
- Trade PG and Hibbert
- DC was a god, we f'd that up
- There's no way we'll improve, we're gonna remain exactly as we are now.

And it's all a buncha silliness. Everyone is freaking out, and it's waaaaaay to early to be freaking out. That is the definition of Chicken Little. The sky is still up there.

I'm freaking out based on what I have seen. The sky is still up there, but it's cracking and showing definite signs of collapse. You would be naive to pretend not to see it, but acting like it's already fallen isn't the best course of action either.

For the record, I don't want Vogel fired and don't blame this mess on him. That talk to me is silly.
I wouldn't mind trading PG while his value is still high, because I just don't see him developing into the alpha dog people expect him to be. Too timid, no fire in his game, shows too many Rush-like symptoms for my liking.
Roy will snap out of it, so I am not too worried there, although it is a blast to rip on him right now, because frankly, he deserves it.
DC wasn't a god, but he is (and always has been) better than DJ Augustin. Trading him wasn't a huge problem--trading him and Dahntay for Stonehands Mahinmi--was a problem.
We will improve, but likely not to the level of our preseason expectations, which is a major bummer.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 04:59 PM
Ok we are all chicken littles, and you are a brainless homer. Gee this is a fun game. What a great debate we are having.

If you want to pretend the sky is falling, I'll sit here all cozy in my "home" bein' a person who sits in a home.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 05:00 PM
If you want to pretend the sky is falling, I'll sit here all cozy in my "home" bein' a person who sits in a home.

I am not saying the sky is falling. I am saying that I'm not sure the sky is going to get any brighter that's for sure.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 05:02 PM
I'm freaking out based on what I have seen. The sky is still up there, but it's cracking and showing definite signs of collapse. You would be naive to pretend not to see it, but acting like it's already fallen isn't the best course of action either.

For the record, I don't want Vogel fired and don't blame this mess on him. That talk to me is silly.
I wouldn't mind trading PG while his value is still high, because I just don't see him developing into the alpha dog people expect him to be. Too timid, no fire in his game, shows too many Rush-like symptoms for my liking.
Roy will snap out of it, so I am not too worried there, although it is a blast to rip on him right now, because frankly, he deserves it.
DC wasn't a god, but he is (and always has been) better than DJ Augustin. Trading him wasn't a huge problem--trading him and Dahntay for Stonehands Mahinmi--was a problem.
We will improve, but likely not to the level of our preseason expectations, which is a major bummer.


And THAT'S why many are reacting so negatively. For the first time in forever, this team had some realistic expectations going into the season and it seems like only Hill, West, Lance, and Tyler got the memo.

Losing by a point here and a point there to some good to average teams is okay. Losing by a point here and a point there to the Bobcats and a depleted TOR team is a cause for concern, DG or not.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 05:03 PM
cdash, you're gonna see, like everyone else, that all this over-reaction is exactly that. I've been through this on here about a bajillion times. Before the season opener, this forum largely thought we were set up real nice for this season. We had kept our good starters, and we overhauled our anemic bench. It took *eight* games to completely undo that. Who here finds it logical to completely make their mind up about a team that has 74 more to play?

We haven't gotten off to the start everyone expected, and it's been Freak Out City. It's been --- 8 games. Eight. It's too early to say *anything* right now, except we havent been playing well. Even so --- we won 3. We didn't lose all 8. We were 2 points away from winning 4 more. We haven't played well and we were *still* in these games. That says something right there about this team. They need to do a few tweaks and the wins will start coming.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 05:04 PM
The sky doesn't have to be falling to realize there are problems that need to be fixed, and discussing possible solutions.

cdash
11-14-2012, 05:09 PM
cdash, you're gonna see, like everyone else, that all this over-reaction is exactly that. I've been through this on here about a bajillion times. Before the season opener, this forum largely thought we were set up real nice for this season. We had kept our good starters, and we overhauled our anemic bench. It took *eight* games to completely undo that. Who here finds it logical to completely make their mind up about a team that has 74 more to play?

We haven't gotten off to the start everyone expected, and it's been Freak Out City. It's been --- 8 games. Eight. It's too early to say *anything* right now, except we havent been playing well.

No, it's not too early say "anything" right now. In case you haven't been following the news in the NBA world, the Lakers said "something" about their coaching situation after 5 games. All we can do at this point is judge the team based on our preconceived notions and what we have seen from our team this season. That's it, and that's all we are doing. Are we pissed off about it? Damn right we are. We expected more from this team, we haven't seen it, and we haven't seen it getting any better--in fact, I'd argue that last night was the single worst performance of the season thus far, included the Charlotte debacle. We have reasons to be pessimistic--what reasons do you have for being optimisitc? What have you seen from this team this year to make you think they will turn it around?

Edit: And don't act like you are the only one that has been around here and seen this board acting like this before--it's patronizing. We have all seen it. Sometimes justified, often times not.

duke dynamite
11-14-2012, 05:09 PM
Quite frankly, I think we suck. Probably to the point where it's going to take some form of drastic measure to get it in their heads to do better. All I hear is this and that from David West after a game, but if the problem was so obvious, why isn't it fixed?

I'm sorry kids, I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, I don't see a big bottle of Elmer's Glue to fix the cracks in the sky. 8 games or 80, it doesn't matter. We don't do what we did last season and play like we have (without a lockout, with a full training camp) been and stink it up. These guys are soft. They talk, want to be on TV, change their twitter names and just go out and get paid.

This team needs some discipline, and they aren't getting it.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 05:11 PM
Quite frankly, I think we suck. Probably to the point where it's going to take some form of drastic measure to get it in their heads to do better. All I hear is this and that from David West after a game, but if the problem was so obvious, why isn't it fixed?

I'm sorry kids, I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, I don't see a big bottle of Elmer's Glue to fix the cracks in the sky.

This team needs some discipline, and they aren't getting it.

Vogel's quotes are especially out of touch with reality. After every game..."We're gonna get rolling" in some way shape or form is all he has for us. That's pretty frustrating for me.

duke dynamite
11-14-2012, 05:15 PM
Vogel's quotes are especially out of touch with reality. After every game..."We're gonna get rolling" in some way shape or form is all he has for us. That's pretty frustrating for me.

The only thing we're rolling is over.

3-5 within the first 8 games against 7 teams that SHOULD have under-.500 records.

Que Sweet Ms. Brown!

http://www.xlurbanmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/ayee.jpg

RWB
11-14-2012, 05:16 PM
Vogel's quotes are especially out of touch with reality. After every game..."We're gonna get rolling" in some way shape or form is all he has for us. That's pretty frustrating for me.

Still better than when he quotes movies like Galaxy Quest with the 'Never Give Up, Never Surrender' speech. I know Frank has spent a lot time watching film, but stealing from Galaxy Quest?

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 05:17 PM
Still better than when he quotes movies like Galaxy Quest with the 'Never Give Up, Never Surrender' speech. I know Frank has spent a lot time watching film, but stealing from Galaxy Quest?

Don't get me wrong, I love Frank's fire during close games. I think that is an awesome quality, galaxy quest or not, but I do not so much like the way he talks after games. I wish after games he was a little more realistic. JMO

Trophy
11-14-2012, 05:59 PM
Something I thought I'd never say about Vogel and this team is that they're beginning to accept this garbage.

I know Danny is out and all, but he's not LeBron. He didn't carry this team to the 5th best record last year and put on a strong fight in the playoffs all by himself.

I've never seen a team with pretty much the same players who each played their hearts out a season ago and then some just completely fall apart. They are simply playing like they could care less. The offensive chemistry and desire to be a team is nonexistent.

The fact that we could've been 7-1 if this team were to actually keep leads and simply give a damn all 48 minutes.

Someone really needs to rip this team a new one. This team is lacking motivation and needs a fire lit under their asses.

I'm doing my best to stay patient and remain optimistic with the season being just 8 games in, but it's infuriating.

Peck
11-14-2012, 06:06 PM
Something I thought I'd never say about Vogel and this team is that they're beginning to accept this garbage.

I know Danny is out and all, but he's not LeBron. He didn't carry this team to the 5th best record last year and put on a strong fight in the playoffs all by himself.I've never seen a team with pretty much the same players who each played their hearts out a season ago and then some just completely fall apart. They are simply playing like they could care less. The offensive chemistry and desire to be a team is nonexistent.

The fact that we could've been 7-1 if this team were to actually keep leads and simply give a damn all 48 minutes.

Someone really needs to rip this team a new one. This team is lacking motivation and needs a fire lit under their asses.

I'm doing my best to stay patient and remain optimistic with the season being just 8 games in, but it's infuriating.

True but I now wonder how much of a big part of that was he?

In reading Don Cassey's pre game statements he was asked what was different about preparing for Indiana without Danny Granger he said & I'm paraphrasing here that Indiana loses a lot of toughness when Danny is not there and they become easier to defend.

I said that last year, I think the entire Smash Mouth persona of the team was really based on Danny Granger. He is tough as nails and fears no one. The problem is that he plays a position that there are two clearly more physical players (LeBron & Melo) but right after them I don't think there is a tougher small forward in the NBA. In fact I question if Melo really will take or make contact the way Danny does.

If nothing else about this season I hope this finally makes fans who took him for granted all of these years appreciate what Danny has meant to this franchise.

Trophy
11-14-2012, 06:10 PM
The sky doesn't have to be falling to realize there are problems that need to be fixed, and discussing possible solutions.

My thoughts EXACTLY!

NapTonius Monk
11-14-2012, 06:16 PM
if the problem was so obvious, why isn't it fixed?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kbaKze622Kg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 06:20 PM
No, it's not too early say "anything" right now. In case you haven't been following the news in the NBA world, the Lakers said "something" about their coaching situation after 5 games.

Which was a knee-jerk reaction. And it's the Lakers. They're a sideshow more often than nought.


All we can do at this point is judge the team based on our preconceived notions and what we have seen from our team this season. That's it, and that's all we are doing. Are we pissed off about it? Damn right we are. We expected more from this team, we haven't seen it, and we haven't seen it getting any better--in fact, I'd argue that last night was the single worst performance of the season thus far, included the Charlotte debacle.

Pissing and moaning about it is one thing; to make outlandish "fire vogel", "this team was never good, we've been lucky", "trade hibbert", "trade PG", "bring back DC" claims isn't suggesting anything rational or logical.


We have reasons to be pessimistic--what reasons do you have for being optimisitc? What have you seen from this team this year to make you think they will turn it around?

Be pessimistic; don't act like the sky is falling. Most people have absolutely given up hope on the playoffs --- already.


Edit: And don't act like you are the only one that has been around here and seen this board acting like this before--it's patronizing. We have all seen it. Sometimes justified, often times not.

If we've all seen this before --- then why are we engaging in it again? Especially, as you just admitted, it's often not justified, and "sometimes" would be a generous adjective. THis is probly why I'm going at it like I am, because I know most of you should know better than this.

Trophy
11-14-2012, 06:30 PM
True but I now wonder how much of a big part of that was he?

In reading Don Cassey's pre game statements he was asked what was different about preparing for Indiana without Danny Granger he said & I'm paraphrasing here that Indiana loses a lot of toughness when Danny is not there and they become easier to defend.

I said that last year, I think the entire Smash Mouth persona of the team was really based on Danny Granger. He is tough as nails and fears no one. The problem is that he plays a position that there are two clearly more physical players (LeBron & Melo) but right after them I don't think there is a tougher small forward in the NBA. In fact I question if Melo really will take or make contact the way Danny does.

If nothing else about this season I hope this finally makes fans who took him for granted all of these years appreciate what Danny has meant to this franchise.

I definitely agree with you on Danny and his importance. Of course without him, we're not contending.

With that said, this is still a very good team that should be winning and maintaining a comfortable spot in the East, but thus far, they're showing they don't care.

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 06:31 PM
I definitely agree with you on Danny and his importance. Of course without him, we're not contending.

With that said, this is still a very good team that should still be winning and maintaining a comfortable spot in the East, but thus far, they're showing they don't care.

Apparently not.....:cool:

Dece
11-14-2012, 06:46 PM
The Lakers are a sideshow? Man, I wish I could get some of those sideshow titles.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 07:05 PM
True but I now wonder how much of a big part of that was he?

A big part but not as big as you think.


In reading Don Cassey's pre game statements he was asked what was different about preparing for Indiana without Danny Granger he said & I'm paraphrasing here that Indiana loses a lot of toughness when Danny is not there and they become easier to defend.

Of course, I mean who would they rather defend Danny Granger or Young/Green? I bet anybody is going to choose Young/Green that does not mean Danny is some kind of superstar, I bet if Paul George,West or Hibbert are hurt instead they would say the same thing.



I said that last year, I think the entire Smash Mouth persona of the team was really based on Danny Granger. He is tough as nails and fears no one. The problem is that he plays a position that there are two clearly more physical players (LeBron & Melo) but right after them I don't think there is a tougher small forward in the NBA. In fact I question if Melo really will take or make contact the way Danny does.

No SF in the NBA is tougher than Lebron or Melo, yes Danny is tough but if you compare him to Lebron/Melo he is not that tough, Deng,Rudy and Wallace are pretty tough too.


If nothing else about this season I hope this finally makes fans who took him for granted all of these years appreciate what Danny has meant to this franchise.

Yes I appreciate what he brings to the team I just don't overrated him, hell I was even getting on people when they were telling us that Green was going to replace Danny just fine.

CableKC
11-14-2012, 07:22 PM
I don't think anybody is suggesting bringing in an entirely new team, as much as people are suggesting moving a piece or two for a piece or two that brings us what we need. Yes when you trade one piece for another, you're opening a new hole within your team BUT even when DG was healthy, we've been looking to add another perimeter offensive threat. Now with Granger out, our offensive woes are magnified.

We've had these types of issues for about as long as I can remember and last year was the year where we seemed to finally break through. Now just a few months later, we're having the same discussions all over again, just about a new slew of players. No we don't need to blow it up, but I think a lot of ppl feel like something needs to be done before we completely un-do what we did last season in the playoffs. (Think GS warriors following that cinderella playoff run that bottomed out the next season)

IDK if its a trade, coaching change, lineup change, or whatever else, the fact that we've been a pretty miserable offensive team since game 3 against the Heat shows me that this is a trend that is NOT likely to go away via "growth" from within, nor the return of DG.
We can agree to disagree.

The board is pretty much split between "make some type of change before it's too late" and "let the change/growth come from within" camps.

I hate that the trend that our bench scoring/defense sucks since Game 3....but keep in mind....there has been a SIGNIFICANT change to the lineup......we've lost Granger for 3-4 months and we have replaced the bench ( minus Hansbrough ) with new Players and are utilizing a Player that hasn't been used before this season ( Lance ). Add in that Hibbert is sucking it up.....I am not surprised that we are doing terribly. It's not like we are playing with the same 8 to 9 Players from last season and we are getting different results.

Why continue to rearrange the deck-chairs on the Titanic when we have to ( at some point ) settle for what we have and simply let the lineup mature and get used to each other?

Even if we were to go down the path of "trading anyone outside of the Starting 5" route....what can we get for the remaining bench Players? Not much....at worst..I could see it as a lateral move. IMHO....I don't want to make a panic move ( that will likely cost us something ) cuz the Team is doing terribly now considering the above concerns and changes to the Team.

colts19
11-14-2012, 07:38 PM
Not picking on Roy, just pointing out that we would be 7 and 1 if roy just had an average game, every game for the last 8. We still wouldn't look great, but we would be 7 and 1. So come on Roy have just an average game. Not a great game just average. While were at it maybe someone else could also play a decent game, then we would have a blow out.

Midcoasted
11-14-2012, 07:42 PM
Not going to worry yet. Once we lose to a team badly twice I will start to worry. We should get tape on teams and be able to make adjustments. Right now they are trying to figure things out as a group. Lance and Hansbrough look like our best all around players in my book up to this point. The rest of the team should catch up and we will be okay. Hopefully it starts tonight. Lance should end games, not Green.

cdash
11-14-2012, 07:49 PM
Which was a knee-jerk reaction. And it's the Lakers. They're a sideshow more often than nought.

Don't really know how to attack this, so I'll just let it speak for itself.


Pissing and moaning about it is one thing; to make outlandish "fire vogel", "this team was never good, we've been lucky", "trade hibbert", "trade PG", "bring back DC" claims isn't suggesting anything rational or logical.

For the record, I never said anything about firing Vogel, that the team was never good but lucky, or really anything else you said. I have mentioned about selling high on Paul George, but there is logic behind that. It's not realistic and I know there is a 0% chance of it actually happening, but I am worried he will never become what we need him to become.




Be pessimistic; don't act like the sky is falling. Most people have absolutely given up hope on the playoffs --- already.

Really? Most people have given up hopes on the playoffs? I don't believe that and I suspect you don't either. People may be jumping ship on having home court advantage in the first round or winning the Central Division, but I haven't seen where "most" people have given up on hopes for the playoffs yet.




If we've all seen this before --- then why are we engaging in it again? Especially, as you just admitted, it's often not justified, and "sometimes" would be a generous adjective. THis is probly why I'm going at it like I am, because I know most of you should know better than this.

Why are you even engaging in it at all if you have seen it so many times and know how it is going to play out? You and I both know the backlash that people such as yourself often get in times like these (more often than not in the past I have taken the side you currently occupy). You know it isn't going to help, so what's the point? People have their views, you aren't going to change them.

I'm still waiting for some actual basketball reasons from you that makes you so confident this team will turn things around.

BobbyMac
11-14-2012, 07:57 PM
It is hard to believe that we have shot as badly as we have the last couple of games! It's equally hard to believe that we have come close to winning after shooting like that! I'm sure it will change. Go Pacers, Beat the BUCKS!!!

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 08:29 PM
Don't really know how to attack this, so I'll just let it speak for itself.



For the record, I never said anything about firing Vogel, that the team was never good but lucky, or really anything else you said. I have mentioned about selling high on Paul George, but there is logic behind that. It's not realistic and I know there is a 0% chance of it actually happening, but I am worried he will never become what we need him to become.





Really? Most people have given up hopes on the playoffs? I don't believe that and I suspect you don't either. People may be jumping ship on having home court advantage in the first round or winning the Central Division, but I haven't seen where "most" people have given up on hopes for the playoffs yet.





Why are you even engaging in it at all if you have seen it so many times and know how it is going to play out? You and I both know the backlash that people such as yourself often get in times like these (more often than not in the past I have taken the side you currently occupy). You know it isn't going to help, so what's the point? People have their views, you aren't going to change them.

I'm still waiting for some actual basketball reasons from you that makes you so confident this team will turn things around.

He never has reasons for his views. He is a fan and he just has them and that is good enough for him.....:cool:

IndySDExport
11-14-2012, 08:39 PM
Anyone know much about Roy's offseason routine (Area 55ers)? From his Twitter feed, all I know is that he did a bunch of MMA. I didn't read anything about him working on his post game or shot... Not to say that he didn't, I just wonder if he's focused so much on his body that other areas were a bit neglected. Especially since he is or at least should be stronger in the upper body, I wonder if that may be affecting his shot a bit.

Once that seed of doubt got into his head... Well then we get no confidence Roy again.

CableKC
11-14-2012, 09:29 PM
Not picking on Roy, just pointing out that we would be 7 and 1 if roy just had an average game, every game for the last 8. We still wouldn't look great, but we would be 7 and 1. So come on Roy have just an average game. Not a great game just average. While were at it maybe someone else could also play a decent game, then we would have a blow out.
Given that we have lost 4 games by less than 4 points.....it's pure speculation on our parts.......but if Hibbert was just averaging the same # of ppg as he was last year ( 12ppg instead of 8ppg )....the Pacers COULD be 6-2 instead of 3-5.

If Hibbert was able to step up and we could run the offense through him like before......would we be doing as bad?

CableKC
11-14-2012, 09:30 PM
Anyone know much about Roy's offseason routine (Area 55ers)? From his Twitter feed, all I know is that he did a bunch of MMA. I didn't read anything about him working on his post game or shot... Not to say that he didn't, I just wonder if he's focused so much on his body that other areas were a bit neglected. Especially since he is or at least should be stronger in the upper body, I wonder if that may be affecting his shot a bit.

Once that seed of doubt got into his head... Well then we get no confidence Roy again.
His confidence does shape how well he plays....but when it comes to Roy specifically, I really think that there is something else going on with him.

spazzxb
11-15-2012, 03:54 PM
At least it was easy to ignore the game and concentrate on studying. Have a test today. Not much to say about the game:-(

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

McKeyFan
11-15-2012, 07:56 PM
It is hard to believe that we have shot as badly as we have the last couple of games! It's equally hard to believe that we have come close to winning after shooting like that! I'm sure it will change. Go Pacers, Beat the BUCKS!!!
It's always interesting to read old game threads.