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vnzla81
11-13-2012, 09:13 PM
And I thought this was an schedule win SMH


Go pacers ...

Eddie Gill
11-13-2012, 09:14 PM
I just hate watching this team play basketball.

Hypnotiq
11-13-2012, 09:14 PM
we need to make a trade this team has stagnated we really do we lack people that can actually put the ball in the basket.

LucasRL13
11-13-2012, 09:14 PM
Great 2nd half defense, but our offense? REALLY???

Trophy
11-13-2012, 09:15 PM
Boy is this getting old...

Psyren
11-13-2012, 09:15 PM
This season has turned comically bad

Dr. Hibbert
11-13-2012, 09:15 PM
This team is quickly undoing everything they did last season. Keep this up, and they'll be out of Indiana in a few years.

DaveP63
11-13-2012, 09:15 PM
Good God. That was awful.

Ace E.Anderson
11-13-2012, 09:16 PM
If THIS doesn't show that SOMETHING needs to happen, change, or SOMETHING, idk what will.

We have one player in Hill who gives a damn. Lance couldn't get in, West gets angry nd stops rebounding when he can't get the ball offensively, our MAX C can't make a layup, lol at this point it's just laughable how bad we are.

HibbyGo
11-13-2012, 09:16 PM
We ****ing suck the refs did their best to let us win and people wondered why certain teams were ahead of use before the season on ESPN power ranking ...

Mr_Smith
11-13-2012, 09:16 PM
This season has turned comically bad

I saw this happening before the season started, with or without danny.

MvPlumlee
11-13-2012, 09:16 PM
At least the combined record of teams we've beaten is better now: 4-16 :happydanc

LoneGranger33
11-13-2012, 09:16 PM
No longer undefeated at home, but still undefeated against teams that are all-defeated.

Eddie Gill
11-13-2012, 09:16 PM
This team is quickly undoing everything they did last season. Keep this up, and they'll be out of Indiana in a few years.

Just stop with this ****. No they won't.

MiaDragon
11-13-2012, 09:16 PM
Ready for a new coach.

boombaby1987
11-13-2012, 09:17 PM
It sucks Vogel isn't even on the hot seat.

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:18 PM
K. I'm in. **** this team. Direct me to the kneejerk reaction thread. Direct me to a therapist. Direct me somewhere, because right now I hate every member of this team except for Hill, West, and Stephenson.

Roy is about to become untradeable with that contract.

The bench is still ****ing awful.

Hansbrough was the best player on the team tonight.

The Raptors scored FIVE ****ING POINTS IN THE ENTIRE FOURTH QUARTER AND STILL WON THE ****ING GAME.

PacersForever
11-13-2012, 09:18 PM
Any timetable for Roy coming back ?

Mr_Smith
11-13-2012, 09:18 PM
And this team was picked to finish 2nd??? Lmao!!!

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:19 PM
Oh, and the first person to waltz in here and say, "Guys, look at the positives: We played great defense! We held them to 74 points!" Deserves an immediate ban without any further questions.

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:19 PM
Any timetable for Roy coming back ?

Nah he got traded to the Blue Jays with Jose Reyes.

gummy
11-13-2012, 09:20 PM
Not fun. Not fun at all.

****.

Hypnotiq
11-13-2012, 09:21 PM
Any timetable for Roy coming back ?

Magic 8 ball says:

Not likely.

LucasRL13
11-13-2012, 09:21 PM
Indiana will be the worst team in the league this year...

1st draft selection, goes to Indianapollis...

COME ON TEAM, I BELIEVE IN YOU GUYS!!!!
WE NEED TO BATTLE

boombaby1987
11-13-2012, 09:22 PM
Did Roy Hibbert get hurt? I only saw the last 30 seconds.

rexnom
11-13-2012, 09:23 PM
Paul George...wow. That is something.

Sollozzo
11-13-2012, 09:23 PM
Nah he got traded to the Blue Jays with Jose Reyes.


lmao

notque
11-13-2012, 09:24 PM
Indiana will be the worst team in the league this year...

1st draft selection, goes to Indianapollis...

COME ON TEAM, I BELIEVE IN YOU GUYS!!!!
WE NEED TO BATTLE

And with the first pick in the draft we select... Mason Plumlee...

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Mason-Plumlee-5231/

tora tora
11-13-2012, 09:24 PM
Ok I'll say it, Frank Vogel is a bum.

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:24 PM
Paul George...wow. That is something.

Yeah...sorry, again this is kneejerk, but SELL HIGH.

Brinocerous
11-13-2012, 09:25 PM
Normally, I'm the sunniest sunshiner there is. But this pretty much sums up my attitude....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARITnC80VhE

Ace E.Anderson
11-13-2012, 09:26 PM
Did Roy Hibbert get hurt? I only saw the last 30 seconds.

Just his pride, dignity, and reputation a little bit.

Sollozzo
11-13-2012, 09:26 PM
Could last year be the peak of this team?

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 09:27 PM
Not going to lie I'm going to start to pay attention to possible prospects for next year draft just like I did during the JOB years.

PacersHomer
11-13-2012, 09:29 PM
I hope we do what the Marlins just did to be honest. Fire sale.

Dr. Awesome
11-13-2012, 09:30 PM
Just stop with this ****. No they won't.

I hope they do.

They need to go somewhere where fans will go to games. Clearly thats not happening right now.

PacersHomer
11-13-2012, 09:31 PM
I hope they do.

They need to go somewhere where fans will go to games. Clearly thats not happening right now.

They won't.

LucasRL13
11-13-2012, 09:31 PM
TRADE THE ENTIRE TEAM!!!!!!
IM PISSED!!!!

In Portugal are 2.42AM, I wasn't sleeping to see this ****???
Really?
Im a basketball coach, and my chicks play better than the Pacers

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:32 PM
I hope they do.

They need to go somewhere where fans will go to games. Clearly thats not happening right now.

Yeah, because fans are the biggest problem with this team right now :rolleyes:

boombaby1987
11-13-2012, 09:32 PM
Normally, I'm the sunniest sunshiner there is. But this pretty much sums up my attitude....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARITnC80VhE

Something to make me smile is always a positive after something like that.

Unclebuck
11-13-2012, 09:32 PM
Oh, so this is the knee jerk reaction thread

rock747
11-13-2012, 09:33 PM
The team is just worse than last year and we don't have our best player to top it off

picasso
11-13-2012, 09:34 PM
Got dammmmm that was a ****ing train wreck.. ***** ****ing christ! we

suck more *** than a tijuana hoooker. How can you be that bad when you where

so good????????? Paul George is starting to **** me off, If he had Tyler's, Danny or Geoge

Hill he would be a monster.. I am not just mad! But I am disappointed in this **** i am forced to watch!

Got dammmm league passsssss.. Now on that note! I'll tune in tomorrow like a whore, because I love a

a goood train wreck.. LoL.. Please wake me up.

LoneGranger33
11-13-2012, 09:34 PM
From now on, I'll choose to download Doodle Jump instead of streaming Pacers games.

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 09:34 PM
Pacers should learn from Denver and drop Roy to the first team that is willing to give you something of value for him.

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:34 PM
Oh, so this is the knee jerk reaction thread

Sure. This thread, all the other post game threads, all the game threads, and the actual "official" knee jerk thread, others that I'm probably missing, etc.

tora tora
11-13-2012, 09:34 PM
Why does Roy keep wiping his face?

pacer4ever
11-13-2012, 09:36 PM
Watching Roy sob the whole 4th on the bench was sad. Dude looked disinterested can't believe we put him back in the game. He is crying why the rest of the team is engaged is wrong hope management does something about it. That is unacceptable for any player can't root for someone who talks big tweets big when he plays good and acts like a leader. Leaders don't cry they lead though advert times that's true leadership. Roy act is far worse than his play. Sad thing is Roy was engaged last year even when he sucked. I guess getting paid changes you.

boombaby1987
11-13-2012, 09:37 PM
At this point, I kind of want to continue to lose. Even if we are able to play 500 ball without Granger, Vogel will continue to be around with his flawed offensive systems. Hopefully the management doesn't wait too long or it will be a lost season.

rock747
11-13-2012, 09:37 PM
This is a dark ****ing period!

boombaby1987
11-13-2012, 09:37 PM
Did Roy Hibbert really cry?

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:38 PM
Watching Roy sob the whole 4th on the bench was sad. Dude looked disinterested can't believe we put him back in the game. He is crying why the rest of the team is engaged is wrong hope management does something about it. That is unacceptable for any player can't root for someone who talks big tweets big when he plays good and acts like a leader. Leaders don't cry they lead though advert times that's true leadership. Roy act is far worse than his play. Sad thing is Roy was engaged last year even when he sucked. I guess getting paid changes you.

He was probably reading PD on his phone and all the vitriol we were (justifiably) spewing his way.

boombaby1987
11-13-2012, 09:38 PM
If we are trying to be positive in any fashion, our defense is stellar.

TOP
11-13-2012, 09:38 PM
It sucks Vogel isn't even on the hot seat.

He's losing every game by a couple points and is without the teams best player and team captain.

It's not his fault the front office gave him the worst bench ever and allowed Granger to wait all offseason to get surgery. I still can't believe they knew about this right after the playoffs and they didn't do the surgery during the offseason. This new front office is brain damaged.

TOP
11-13-2012, 09:39 PM
P.s. I miss Bird already.

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:39 PM
This is a dark ****ing period!

Here's me being legitimately positive: It's been really fun to rip on this team and crack jokes in the game threads. I mean this is the first season where vnzla and I have seen eye to eye...well, ever :laugh:

idioteque
11-13-2012, 09:39 PM
I can't even get myself excited about this team. I just haven't been sold on it and caught up on Homeland and Boardwalk Empire tonight instead of watching the game. And this is coming from someone who watched that entire wonderful year when we had Kareem Rush. Didn't miss a game that year.

PacersForever
11-13-2012, 09:39 PM
Wonder if Vegas have odds for Vogel fired before the All-star break.

boombaby1987
11-13-2012, 09:40 PM
The good news is, I think its a lot easier to build an offense, then a stellar defense.

TOP
11-13-2012, 09:40 PM
Did Roy Hibbert really cry?

Probably.

Would be pathetic if he did given how much money he makes. The Simson's should be the ones crying having to pay for a 7'2 center that shoots 40% and can't even grab 10 boards.

PacersHomer
11-13-2012, 09:40 PM
Wonder if Vegas have odds for Vogel fired before the All-star break.

I hope so but that would require competence from the FO. I don't see that happening.

LoneGranger33
11-13-2012, 09:41 PM
If we are trying to be positive in any fashion, our defense is stellar.

I'm particularly appreciative of Tyler Hansbrough. He seems to have made some strides on the defensive end. Anyone agree?

Ace E.Anderson
11-13-2012, 09:41 PM
He's losing every game by a couple points and is without the teams best player and team captain.

It's not his fault the front office gave him the worst bench ever and allowed Granger to wait all offseason to get surgery. I still can't believe they knew about this right after the playoffs and they didn't do the surgery during the offseason. This new front office is brain damaged.


Idc what you say, losing to a team coming off a triple overtime game and missing their best player is just a joke. Yes Roy missed a bunch of layups that proved to be the difference, but this team is obviously not responding to Vogel right now.

His lack of X's and O's were always offset by his ability to get the team to play harder than everyone else--with that no longer the case, we're screwed.

rock747
11-13-2012, 09:41 PM
P.s. I miss Bird already.

This thought has definitely crossed my mind.

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:42 PM
The one thing I don't entirely get is the extreme backlash at Vogel. The offense is as vanilla as it gets, but the roster isn't exactly well put together. Especially since the entire offense is predicated on Roy Hibbert's ability to score in the low post. If that isn't happening, we are in DEEP ****. And it's not.

pacer4ever
11-13-2012, 09:42 PM
He was probably reading PD on his phone and all the vitriol we were (justifiably) spewing his way.That's what I did I mentally checked out at halftime. Hell the big screen at BLF couldn't keep me engaged in that mascar of a game.

sam kaiserblade
11-13-2012, 09:42 PM
If Jerry Sloan really wants to coach again, the Pacers should snag him up. Don't be like IU and hold on to Vogel too long.

MrHale
11-13-2012, 09:42 PM
brian shaw please

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:43 PM
I'm particularly appreciative of Tyler Hansbrough. He seems to have made some strides on the defensive end. Anyone agree?

Possibly. The refs were so appalled by this game that they stopped calling fouls in the fourth quarter. I mean Tyler was mugging people left and right with no call.

TMJ31
11-13-2012, 09:43 PM
Look guys.

... You know what? I had about a 3-4 paragraph post about how we're still going to be a playoff team and things are going to eventually gel, and even if we aren't a #2 seed that does not mean we aren't going to be a force come playoff time. I really believe that.

But I know that no one is going to listen and it's just going to get flamed, so instead, I deleted that and you get this:

:gopacers:

McKeyFan
11-13-2012, 09:43 PM
I'm certainly disappointed Lance didn't get in the last few minutes.

It may not have mattered, but then again, there were several possessions down the stretch where we needed a good entry pass and some sanity around the perimeter. Paul George choked numerous times. It may have made the difference if Lance had the ball on just one of those possessions.

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:44 PM
If Jerry Sloan really wants to coach again, the Pacers should snag him up. Don't be like IU and hold on to Vogel too long.

Stan Van Gundy wouldn't be bad for this team either. But I really don't think Vogel is on the hot seat or even the main problem right now.

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 09:44 PM
The one thing I don't entirely get is the extreme backlash at Vogel. The offense is as vanilla as it gets, but the roster isn't exactly well put together. Especially since the entire offense is predicated on Roy Hibbert's ability to score in the low post. If that isn't happening, we are in DEEP ****. And it's not.

Yeah I don't get the Vogel crapping either, it's not his fault that the Pacers front office gave him a crappy team to begging with.

boombaby1987
11-13-2012, 09:44 PM
Look guys.

... You know what? I had about a 3-4 paragraph post about how we're still going to be a playoff team and things are going to eventually gel, and even if we aren't a #2 seed that does not mean we aren't going to be a force come playoff time. I really believe that.

But I know that no one is going to listen and it's just going to get flamed, so instead, I deleted that and you get this:

:gopacers:

I want the KoolAid you're drinking sir.

rock747
11-13-2012, 09:46 PM
Look guys.

... You know what? I had about a 3-4 paragraph post about how we're still going to be a playoff team and things are going to eventually gel, and even if we aren't a #2 seed that does not mean we aren't going to be a force come playoff time. I really believe that.

But I know that no one is going to listen and it's just going to get flamed, so instead, I deleted that and you get this:

:gopacers:

i envy your enthusiasm.

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:46 PM
Look guys.

... You know what? I had about a 3-4 paragraph post about how we're still going to be a playoff team and things are going to eventually gel, and even if we aren't a #2 seed that does not mean we aren't going to be a force come playoff time. I really believe that.

But I know that no one is going to listen and it's just going to get flamed, so instead, I deleted that and you get this:

:gopacers:

...

Your level headedness isn't welcome here. So I am going to flame this post just because you even contemplated being level headed!!!

TMJ31
11-13-2012, 09:46 PM
I want the KoolAid you're drinking sir.


It's called not getting too high after a win or too low after a loss.

We're hitting a stretch of a few "low losses".

Obviously that means there is NO chance for us to turn it around, right?

Might as well just forfeit our games I suppose?

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:48 PM
It's called not getting too high after a win or too low after a loss.

We're hitting a stretch of a few "low losses".

Obviously that means there is NO chance for us to turn it around, right?

Might as well just forfeit our games I suppose?

K, my last post was obviously a joke, but this one isn't: You can't play the level-headed card and then throw out hyperbole like those last two sentences at the end.

rock747
11-13-2012, 09:48 PM
Good teams taht are struggling don't lose this game tonight...

Sparhawk
11-13-2012, 09:49 PM
He's losing every game by a couple points and is without the teams best player and team captain.

It's not his fault the front office gave him the worst bench ever and allowed Granger to wait all offseason to get surgery. I still can't believe they knew about this right after the playoffs and they didn't do the surgery during the offseason. This new front office is brain damaged.

Ian and Green were solid signing. Giving up DC for Ian was dumb, but I like Ian. DJ was just a terrible signing.

It's all on the coach. This team has no offense...still, after 3 years. DC didn't just magically become good again in Dallas. It's that Dallas has a great coach that knows how to get the best out of his players. Vogel doesn't know how to get the best from the players on the roster. If guys aren't executing properly, again, that is on the coach. Guys aren't making shots cause they really can't get many easy buckets. Comes down to the coach cause he can't implement any type of offense.

If Vogel isn't on the hot seat soon, then I don't think Walsh really cares what happens to this team.

Even without Granger there is a ton of talent on this team and they just stink.

I really want to know what Shaw contributes, cause to me, it doesn't look like much. Too much talent here to be playing like crap. I'm ready for SVG or Sloan.

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 09:49 PM
It's called not getting too high after a win or too low after a loss.

We're hitting a stretch of a few "low losses".

Obviously that means there is NO chance for us to turn it around, right?

Might as well just forfeit our games I suppose?

They are hitting an stretch of few losses against crappy teams I can't imagine what's going to happen with a harder schedule.

3rdStrike
11-13-2012, 09:50 PM
If we are trying to be positive in any fashion, our defense is stellar.

Not really. Toronto is without Kyle Lowry, far and away their best player. Washington was without their only NBA starter caliber players. Minnesota was without Rubio, Love and I forget who else. We gave up 101 to the Spurs, and the Hawks have a fairly poor offense. This is the easy part of the schedule, guys.

Wait til we start playing good (or even healthy) teams and start losing by 30. No heart, no hustle. Blaming it on Granger's absence is the most pathetic excuse imaginable, yet that's all I've heard from the Pacers players and (sadly) Frank Vogel. And that's another reason Vogel has to go. If he thinks it and says it, of course the players will too.

Btw, where's the sunshine crowd from the Washington win?

Can't blame it on playing games on the road or being tired anymore. What excuses are left?

rock747
11-13-2012, 09:51 PM
Man Stacey Paetz has sharpened her game. See her doing sideline reporting tonight on NBA tv

cdash
11-13-2012, 09:52 PM
Quarter-serious, semi-ridiculous comment: IU could average more points per game this year than the Pacers.

McKeyFan
11-13-2012, 09:54 PM
Man Stacey Paetz has sharpened her game. See her doing sideline reporting tonight on NBA tv

Is that what happened to her? Did she get promoted rather than fired?

McKeyFan
11-13-2012, 09:55 PM
I'm ready for SVG or Sloan.

Stan Van Gundy could cause me to lose my fandom.

ReginaldWayne
11-13-2012, 09:58 PM
So 5 fourth quarter points for the Raptors..

Lord Helmet
11-13-2012, 09:59 PM
So if Collison didn't quietly ask for a trade this offseason I'm going to be pissed.

Seriously. That Dallas trade is looking horrid.

Also, DJ has done nothing for this team. Has he even scored ten points combined this whole season?

Roy needs to get his head out of his *** as well. In the meantime play through Hill, Lance, Tyler and West. They look like the only ones who give a damn right now.

Sigh. I hope this gets better.

I'm not panicking yet, but this has been bad so far. Only good thing is we have a game tomorrow.

billbradley
11-13-2012, 10:01 PM
I'm not panicking yet, but DJ has looked just awful. I can't believe it's the same player I've watched the past two years. Truly a let down.

TMJ31
11-13-2012, 10:03 PM
K, my last post was obviously a joke, but this one isn't: You can't play the level-headed card and then throw out hyperbole like those last two sentences at the end.

Fair ;)

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 10:03 PM
Is that what happened to her? Did she get promoted rather than fired?

NBA TV and TNT.

presto123
11-13-2012, 10:05 PM
Man....where do we go from here? I would almost bet the farm that the two guys that a lot of people thought were the future of the franchise(Paul George, Hibbert) never come anywhere near fans or management's expectations. I never trusted either one but that's just me.

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 10:07 PM
@MikeWellsNBA: Good news: Pacers set a franchise record for fewest pts allowed n a quarter w 5 in the 4th. Bad news: They still couldn't win the game.

presto123
11-13-2012, 10:07 PM
NBA TV and TNT.

Good for her!

3rdStrike
11-13-2012, 10:08 PM
It's been suggested before, but why isn't Vogel playing Plumlee? I understand the implications but you've seriously got to consider limiting or benching Hibbert soon. Come up with a fake injury if necessary, but no team in the NBA is going to be successful with a starting center shooting under 38%, especially when he's their highest paid player. That's just crippling. Time for Plumlee to get some minutes; at least he dunks and will be able to catch alleys from Lance/Hill/DJA

Lord Helmet
11-13-2012, 10:08 PM
I'd rather have Ben Hansbrough be the backup PG over DJ at this point.

DJ looks like an NBDL player. He's made like one good pass and missed 90% of his shots.

presto123
11-13-2012, 10:09 PM
It's been suggested before, but why isn't Vogel playing Plumlee? I understand the implications but you've seriously got to consider limiting or benching Hibbert soon. Come up with a fake injury if necessary, but no team in the NBA is going to be successful with a starting center shooting under 38%, especially when he's their highest paid player. That's just crippling. Time for Plumlee to get some minutes; at least he dunks and will be able to catch alleys from Lance/Hill/DJA

I actually think Plumlee would give just as much or more than Hibbert right now.

Lord Helmet
11-13-2012, 10:11 PM
I actually think Plumlee would give just as much or more than Hibbert right now.
Sadly, that isn't a crazy statement to make.

Lord save our Pacers.

Inca Street
11-13-2012, 10:11 PM
We are who we thought they were...

632

presto123
11-13-2012, 10:13 PM
What the heck is Barbosa doing right now? We need offense bad and right now he would be better than anybody on the Pacers other than Hill and West.

cdash
11-13-2012, 10:18 PM
What the heck is Barbosa doing right now? We need offense bad and right now he would be better than anybody on the Pacers other than Hill and West.

He's in Boston now.

imawhat
11-13-2012, 10:19 PM
What the heck is Barbosa doing right now? We need offense bad and right now he would be better than anybody on the Pacers other than Hill and West.

He wouldn't, and that was my point about Barbosa this summer. We ran a terrible offense where we gave him the ball and asked him to create. He'd have the same problems with us this season if we wasn't in Boston (and it's not his fault).

I'm pretty sure this is the first time in shot clock era that a team has scored 5 pts in the 4th and won.

rock747
11-13-2012, 10:20 PM
What the heck is Barbosa doing right now? We need offense bad and right now he would be better than anybody on the Pacers other than Hill and West.

Filling a nice reserve role in Boston for vet minimum. meanwhile we are paying Gerald Green.

pogi
11-13-2012, 10:21 PM
I'm beginning to think that last year was A COMPLETE ABERRATION!!!! How did we go from being one game up on the eventual champs...to all-the-sudden playing like dookey in a matter of months? I know that it's only the beginning to a long season, but, we're looking HORRIBLE. We've only played two worthy teams and one of them put us in our place within minutes; and the other we lost. The rest of those teams were, IMO, considered garbage; yet, ALL OF THEM has made the games too competitive to my liking. I mean Charlotte frikkin' Bobcats broke their losing streak against us.

What happened to our "supposed" depth? The way this team is set up is that if someone goes into a funk, we have other players to help recover. But EVERYONE seems to be in a funk at the same time!

What happened with Paul working on his handles? He looks like he's about to lose the ball almost every time he dribbles.

What happened with Big Boy Roy? Getting past the first round, actually getting voted by the coaches into the all-star game, and getting a big contract wasn't enough to boost his morale? He's looking more soft than his rookie year. The next acting job he takes should be Lenny whenever someone decides to do a remake of "Of Mice and Men."

I know some people are down about Collison being traded. But face it, he wasn't gonna stay here coming off the bench. What I don't get is picking up DJ, whom looks like garbage on offense and defense.

What happened to our play-calling? Did every team just figured us out at once? We play like a pickup game at the YMCA.....just too many ISO's and hardly anyone understands that it's more successful to pass out of a triple-team to a wide friggin' open player than to shoot over two or more defenders and then wonder why everyone stands around the next couple plays. Plus, is it me, or when I watch the opponents or just any other game in particular, I notice better passing, better spacing, and it seems that everyone knows their roles?

Sorry for ranting, but I'm finding that getting this off my chest is somewhat therapeutic until I go to bed.

CableKC
11-13-2012, 10:24 PM
Lance played 27 minutes. Can someone tell me how he did?

The only SILVER LINING that I can see in any of this is that he is starting to get more minutes. To me, if we are doing poorly...I rather do poorly with Lance getting solid and consistent minutes to see what he can do.

If there was a way to let Miles go out there to get some minutes....I'd be all for that as well.

We're losing games against Teams that were in the FRAKKIN Lottery at home and on the road....we might as well develop Lance and Miles while we are at it.

Sandman21
11-13-2012, 10:25 PM
Still not panicking. If half of those in and outs go down as they should have, we win this thing by double digits. If I remember last year right, we had games like this early on where we couldn't buy a basket if our lives depended on it.

Roy and DJ's offensive games will come around soon.

pacer4ever
11-13-2012, 10:37 PM
Why couldn't of Andrew Wiggins reclassed to 2012 ughh. Dude is gonnabe a freak on both ends of the floor when he comes into the lg tank for Wiggins is a club I could be apart of. For Zeller meh or Shabaz meh or Noel meh. Tony Mitchell would be super though.

Powww
11-13-2012, 10:41 PM
Lol at all the people that said Jermaine was overpaid. If JO was overpaid, what Hibbert is hasnt even been defined yet.

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 10:53 PM
I don't think we are getting Odd thoughts tonight either :sad:

Pacergeek
11-13-2012, 10:58 PM
Lol at all the people that said Jermaine was overpaid. If JO was overpaid, what Hibbert is hasnt even been defined yet.

JO was a beast until injuries caught up to him. Prime JO > prime Roy by a mile. Not sure what TPTB were thinking after Roy's poor showing vs Miami

Trader Joe
11-13-2012, 11:02 PM
DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS...Oh....wait

Trader Joe
11-13-2012, 11:06 PM
Can we just can Vogel and get it over with?

Trader Joe
11-13-2012, 11:14 PM
Also, I'm sick of Roy and his "hands up" thing when he is introduced. He plays like a neutered puppy on the court.

Pacergeek
11-13-2012, 11:15 PM
Can we just can Vogel and get it over with?

Our best player is George Hill. Not taking anything away from George, but even John Wooden wouldn't be able to win with him as your best player

Pacergeek
11-13-2012, 11:16 PM
Cellar for Zeller is sounding better and better each day

Trader Joe
11-13-2012, 11:20 PM
Our best player is George Hill. Not taking anything away from George, but even John Wooden wouldn't be able to win with him as your best player

Here's what I know. Our team has scored 100 points...once. ONCE. IN EIGHT GAMES. That is unacceptable in today's NBA. And that is on the coach. We've gotten above 90 two other times. WOOOOOO. You know what teams win when they allow only 5 points in the 4th quarter? Teams who are well coached. You know what teams lose who allow only 5 points in the 4th quarter? Teams who are poorly coached.

Everyone wants to blame effort or whatever, I don't know I can't really do that. Our guys aren't being put in spots to succeed on offense (other than Hibbert who apparently can't even hit layups anymore). Go back and watch the last twenty seconds of the game, I'll be nice, and just call it a coaching equivalent of a dumpster fire.

Our Defense has been fantastic in every game but the Spurs game, well I can accept that the Spurs are a heck of an efficient team. Otherwise, the D is getting it done, offense is just trash, complete trash. We haven't seen a single offensive adjustment from a game planning stand point other than subbing in Young for Green and Lance for Young as starters. Well that is not coaching, that is rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

Vogel is a great dude, a great, great dude, but the decision is too easy. The most sought after assistant maybe in the NBA is sitting on our bench, it's not really a hard decision IMO.

presto123
11-13-2012, 11:23 PM
Cellar for Zeller is sounding better and better each day


Suck For Luck and Cellar For Zeller. LOL!

Pacergeek
11-13-2012, 11:24 PM
Here's what I know. Our team has scored 90 points...once. ONCE. IN EIGHT GAMES. That is unacceptable. And that is on the coach.

Everyone wants to blame effort or whatever, I don't know I can't really do that. Our guys aren't being put in spots to succeed on offense (other than Hibbert who apparently can't even hit layups anymore). Go back and watch the last twenty seconds of the game, I'll be nice, and just call it a coaching equivalent of a dumpster fire.

Our Defense has been fantastic in every game but the Spurs game, well I can accept that the Spurs are a heck of an efficient team. Otherwise, the D is getting it done, offense is just trash, complete trash. We haven't seen a single offensive adjustment from a game planning stand point other than subbing in Young for Green and Lance for Young as starters. Well that is not coaching, that is rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

Honestly, I wouldn't really have a problem if Vogel was fired. But you have to admit that management didn't really do him any favors in the offseason. The trades were borderline robbery, and our draft class is also looking horrible considering Plumlee isn't ready to contribute yet. Just a disastrous off-season

Trader Joe
11-13-2012, 11:26 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't really have a problem if Vogel was fired. But you have to admit that management didn't really do him any favors in the offseason. The trades were borderline robbery, and our draft class is also looking horrible considering Plumlee isn't ready to contribute yet. Just a disastrous off-season

I honestly can't make heads or tails of our signings. Mahinmi is playing better D than Lou ever did last season. I know that.

presto123
11-13-2012, 11:32 PM
I honestly can't make heads or tails of our signings. Mahinmi is playing better D than Lou ever did last season. I know that.

True but he's still Meh-hinmi to me. I think we actually under-valued our bench players last year. They brought it.

Trader Joe
11-13-2012, 11:33 PM
True but he's still Meh-hinmi to me. I think we actually under-valued our bench players last year. They brought it.

We undervalued DC there's no doubt about that. Advanced stats backed up the fact that he was every bit as good as Hill, and in the playoffs he was better.

Pacergeek
11-13-2012, 11:37 PM
I honestly can't make heads or tails of our signings. Mahinmi is playing better D than Lou ever did last season. I know that.

If all you can hang your hat on is getting a marginally better backup center, than this off-season was an epic fail

RLeWorm
11-13-2012, 11:50 PM
why did we have to suck this year?!!!! If we get the #1 pick, I will be sad. Next year is when the Pacers would want to suck. We need ANDREW WIGGINS!

RLeWorm
11-13-2012, 11:53 PM
We undervalued DC there's no doubt about that. Advanced stats backed up the fact that he was every bit as good as Hill, and in the playoffs he was better.

I sure hella did! Mahimi is not even close to DC's level. Remember when everyone on the team was saying how good Augistin was? Yea, DC any day over him. DC come back!

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 12:03 AM
All it took was 8 bad games to alienate most of this board, lol.... come on guys. They'll work it out and then all these posts will look silly.

oz_pacer
11-14-2012, 12:12 AM
THE SKY IS FALLING!!

Mr.ThunderMakeR
11-14-2012, 12:16 AM
I actually thought the offense looked better today as far as movement, passing, and getting good looks. I'm not saying it was good overall, just better than before. Just couldn't hit the broad side of a barn

Roy desperately needs to develop a pump fake in the post. He has one move right now, the baby hook, and its not falling. Time to try something new. One pump, get your defender in the air, and dunk. Tyler could benefit greatly from this as well.

Tyler has been a very pleasant surprise, he played great D tonight on players both bigger/stronger than him and smaller/quicker. Not a great stat line but that doesn't tell how good he played.

The defense looked very good at times, no thanks to Roy. Roy is letting his offensive funk affect the other aspects, defense and rebounding. THAT is unacceptable.

DJ Augustin has not contributed positively on one single play on either side of the court in his entire time as a Pacer I can't believe we thought he was going to be better, or even comparable to DC. I thought his one major talent was supposed to be his passing, I've seen some really terrible passes from him so far.

Paul George was absolutely terrible. I cringed every time he got the ball in his hands. Not only that but he was getting lit up by DeRozan. Hopefully his defense isn't regressing.

Pace Maker
11-14-2012, 12:21 AM
So where do we go from here? Even with Granger back, its very clear this team won't be contending for championships or even the Eastern Conference anytime soon. Back to being middle of the road. Lovely.

imawhat
11-14-2012, 12:25 AM
Here's what I want to know. What happened between the beginning of training camp and the beginning of the regular season? According to everyone we picked up right where we left off. Granger was not really practicing when those comments were being made, so it's not that.

What happened?

mattie
11-14-2012, 12:25 AM
All it took was 8 bad games to alienate most of this board, lol.... come on guys. They'll work it out and then all these posts will look silly.

The play of this team right now is horrible, it is entirely inexplicable, and it is embarrassing. IF they somehow get it together in a few days and start playing well it won't change what happened the first 8 games of the season.

This team could win 70% of their games on out and we'll still look at each other at the end of the season and ask, "wtf happened those first 8 games? that was pathetic."

In other words, what they do in the future doesn't change what they've already done, and what they've already done is play **** poor basketball.

Pacemaker
11-14-2012, 12:41 AM
Why David West wasn't on the floor for the last play????????

Pacerized
11-14-2012, 12:54 AM
I'd go along with replacing Vogel if someone like Sloan were available but I think Walsh should be canned first. We had chemistry last year and didn't need to turn over our entire bench for the sake of change. Give me DC, Jones, and Barbosa over DJ, and Green and we win this game along with at least 2 of our other losses. We should have just offered Kaman a 3/24 and called it a day.
Can we start a please come home Larry movement?

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 12:59 AM
@HPbasketball: I'll say it. I think the Pacers would be better off with Collison and Kawhi.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
11-14-2012, 01:01 AM
I just wanna say this, teams get off to bad starts, it happens. Last year people were saying Boston needed to blow it up before the all-star break. They went on to the EC Finals.

aamcguy
11-14-2012, 01:15 AM
@HPbasketball: I'll say it. I think the Pacers would be better off with Collison and Kawhi.

As if using hindsight to its full extent wasn't enough, he ignores the fact that a year in different environments develops players differently.

Kawhi has perhaps the best coach in the league along with Tim Duncan, who would make an excellent coach if he wanted to right now.

CJ Jones
11-14-2012, 01:18 AM
music soothes the soul...


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/k3o9s_Q6_SU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


pacers are trying to kill my vibe.

Bball
11-14-2012, 01:32 AM
Donnie Walsh had this team on a fast track out of town before he moved on to NY. Now he's back to finish the job.

Seriously, Bird's leaving was one thing (and I will forever believe it was because Simon balked at doing whatever it was Bird thought needed to happen for the next step)... but Donnie Walsh returning just was the icing on the turd as far as I'm concerned.

Everything last season had brought back had a giant wet blanket thrown on it in a hurry. And now that the off season still looks 'blah' and counter-productive at best (a lot like it felt like at the time) I don't have much hope for these problems being quickly addressed as long as Walsh is here. So it's another wet blanket.

And I don't think Herb Simon has the balls or competitive fire to demand changes and answers. Maybe in the business world he's competitive but I think as far as the NBA goes, it's just an expensive hobby and billionaire status symbol.

And yeah... the season could still turn around. But it's hard to believe that can happen without a fire being lit and we're back to TPTB....

piggyKing
11-14-2012, 01:38 AM
Sorry but I can't help not posting anymore. new member here from the Philippines. I actually made a new account since I can't post with my 6month old account before. JO with that max contract at least lived up to his hype until injuries bothered him. I don't see that in Hibbert. He can't even handle the pressure that comes with being the highest paid player. And if he really did cry? Please!!!! Enough sulking already! get your heads up high for ****st's sake!! This team almost always talks about smashmouth basketball. The Fever never talked about or claimed they were but they looked more smashmouth to me.

Heisenberg
11-14-2012, 01:59 AM
Usually I'd be all for "let them right the ship, they'll turn it around, it's early" blah blah blah. And a bit of me's still reserved to that because the only thing I can do is send tweets to Kevin Pritchard.

But this team has shown me absolutely nothing to make me think they actually can turn it around. I'm legitimately ready for a firesale. I love Roy to death but we've got to move that contract. I understand why they matched the offer, I supported it. But I was wrong.

This team is bad.

CJ Jones
11-14-2012, 03:26 AM
I just wanna say this, teams get off to bad starts, it happens. Last year people were saying Boston needed to blow it up before the all-star break. They went on to the EC Finals.

Yeah, well, we don't have 4 future HOFers to fall back on. I like the optimism, though. I hope the guys can turn it around.

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 05:15 AM
NBA TV and TNT.

I thought she was really good. People gave me a hard time.

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 05:21 AM
What happened with Big Boy Roy?...He's looking more soft than his rookie year. The next acting job he takes should be Lenny whenever someone decides to do a remake of "Of Mice and Men."

:laugh:

D-BONE
11-14-2012, 06:42 AM
How is this all at DW's feet as far as offseason moves? Not saying he wasn't a part, but what about Bird's golden boy Pritchard? Is he not part of the personnel decision brain trust?

When DJ first got in the game he was aggressively pushing the ball upcourt. He hit a kick-out three. I thought maybe he might finally show something of worth. WRONG. He quickly reverted back to his typical early season form, as did almost everyone else.

Only people I was really content with were Tyler and Mahinmi. Neither were big stats, but at least they hustled and scrapped throughout. Rest of the team goes through huge periods where they play with no fire whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, still think Dallas fleeced us in the Ian deal talent - wise, but I appreciated his effort last night. Seems to me his last couple games have been better that previous showings.

Sparhawk
11-14-2012, 07:31 AM
No the sky isn't falling. Losing to pathetic teams and getting blown out by the one good playoff team doesn't bode well. Have the Pacers made any adjustments? Other than some roster switches, no. The Pacers have the same problems they've had since Frank took over. Nothing has changed and teams know that.

For everyone that thinks things will get better, or that things are just rosy...you tell the rest of us when and how.

I'm not panicking right now, but something has to change. For me, all signs point to Vogel simply not being ready to be a head coach yet. He could be really good one day, but he's got to learn the Xs and Os and how to get guys to execute properly.

Even through the first 8 games or so, what has changed? Other than swapping out guys in the starting lineup, nothing has freaking changed! Still can't execute, offense is still nonexistent, can't set proper screens/picks and still can't defend them well.

I'm fine with the players on the roster. The bench still might not be a great improvement, but there is a lot of talent on this roster.

Again, sky isn't falling and I'm not in panic mode. I'm beyond frustration for seeing no improvement since Vogel took over. I'm willing to give Vogel more time, but I don't think this team will make that turn into a contender.

I can only wonder how patient management will be before making some changes. Pacers are supposed to be good and haven't been playing that way. Most of you probably forgot that the Pacers are still trying to win fans back. They aren't going to win fans back with this team playing like ****.

Heisenberg
11-14-2012, 07:42 AM
I don't know what it means (hint: not a damn thing) but I wanted to dump Hansbrough and Lance for basically anything before the season started.

And now they're two of the best 3/4 players on the entire team. I was wrong about what they could contribute. That's great. But I was immensely wrong about how important they'd be. That's awful. In August if you shook the 8 ball and it told you Tyler Hansbrough and Lance Stephenson were the only real glimmers of hope on this team you'd have shot yourself in the head. Lance finally learning how to play controlled NBA basketball and Tyler learning how to harness that 5 hour energy and do extremely positive things with it, especially on the defensive end?! Lance and Tyler have been great. I cannot express how much I appreciate Hansbrough, and I wanted to give him away.

Everybody else? Mahinmi's a decent 3rd big. The midrange J's confident and it's money (way more than West's). Everybody else? Dump em. I mean it.

Blow the damn thing up. This roster's not doing dick except maybe make the playoffs, and what's the point in that? Danny's good, but he's not freaking Lebron. Losing him should not leave us begging for the 8th seed. This team is unobjectively bad.

If it ain't the team it's the coaching staff. One of them needs to change. Quickly.

LoneGranger33
11-14-2012, 07:51 AM
Everybody else? Dump em. I mean it.

Unfortunately, Hibbert and Hill are the new Dunleavy and Murphy, albeit with much higher ceilings. Neither of those contracts is tradeable right now.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 07:52 AM
I think we should start Ian nd give him some more minutes. If Roy isn't going to play right, then bench him nd send him a message. With Danny's injury, it's tough to do the same with PG but he needs to be told to get his head out of his a$$ too. I'm on board with trading either one at this point. We need someone else that can shoot/score aside from Hill nd West.

I kinda wish we could've gotten in on the Hareb deal. If not to get Harden, then at least to pick up K-Mart who had 1yr left on his deal. PG would look good on OKC as a spot up shooter/perimeter defender.

Now that ship has sailed, I truly hope the FO looks hard nd long around the league nd flips some assets bc this team is starting to regress. (Lookin at you Paul, Roy, DJ)

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 07:53 AM
Unfortunately, Hibbert and Hill are the new Dunleavy and Murphy, albeit with much higher ceilings. Neither of those contracts is tradeable right now.

If the Nugs could trade a maxed out NeNe, we can find a way to trade Hibbert. Hill? Why would you want to trade him, he's actually earning his new contract.

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 08:00 AM
We undervalued DC there's no doubt about that. Advanced stats backed up the fact that he was every bit as good as Hill, and in the playoffs he was better.

Many of the posters here overvalued this entire team. A couple of us kept saying they were going to slide back. I thought they were a 5-6 seed going in and I said if there was a major injury and that was overdue, the Pacers would have to scrap like hell to make the playoffs. They played way over their heads last year. They got lucky and drew Orlando minus Howard in the playoffs to win a series. They won a game or two against the Heat until they adjusted to Bosh being out and then blew the Pacers out. I saw people saying were going to beat the Heat for number one in the east this year... That was just silly. They are not as bad as they are showing right now and they will do better but they are seriously undercoached and they don't have any player that is close to being the star one needs in the NBA. I think that is why Bird did not return. Simon is happy just making the playoffs and once in a while winning a round. He is not interested in building a real contending team in Indianapolis. That would take more money than he is willing to spend. They were unlucky last night. Yes, the offense is not good but Hibbert missed four or five of his soft hook shots that just rolled out or off of the rim. Those were good shots. He will make those most of the time and that alone makes up the difference. The Pacers need a lot of work and I hope this will temper the talk about them being a contender.....:cool:

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 08:05 AM
I think we should start Ian nd give him some more minutes. If Roy isn't going to play right, then bench him nd send him a message. With Danny's injury, it's tough to do the same with PG but he needs to be told to get his head out of his a$$ too. I'm on board with trading either one at this point. We need someone else that can shoot/score aside from Hill nd West.

I kinda wish we could've gotten in on the Hareb deal. If not to get Harden, then at least to pick up K-Mart who had 1yr left on his deal. PG would look good on OKC as a spot up shooter/perimeter defender.

Now that ship has sailed, I truly hope the FO looks hard nd long around the league nd flips some assets bc this team is starting to regress. (Lookin at you Paul, Roy, DJ)

Where you are sailing is right back into rebuild mode. But poorly managed teams do just that. This team has had one winning season in the recent past, just one. You may not want to admit it but they are still rebuilding. If you start making all of those trades you are proposing, the rebuild over the last four or five years goes right out the window. This is your team. This is what you have. Work with them and keep adding pieces as you can... For those of you who were so happy to see Prichart take over over and Larry Bird leave, well, you got what you wanted, now live with it......:cool:

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 08:32 AM
Unfortunately, Hibbert and Hill are the new Dunleavy and Murphy, albeit with much higher ceilings. Neither of those contracts is tradeable right now.

Hill is doing great with his contract, now Roy, Ian and Green in the other hand? :puke:

Also ad Danny to that list as the new JO, huge contract with bad knees.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 08:34 AM
Where you are sailing is right back into rebuild mode. But poorly managed teams do just that. This team has had one winning season in the recent past, just one. You may not want to admit it but they are still rebuilding. If you start making all of those trades you are proposing, the rebuild over the last four or five years goes right out the window. This is your team. This is what you have. Work with them and keep adding pieces as you can... For those of you who were so happy to see Prichart take over over and Larry Bird leave, well, you got what you wanted, now live with it......:cool:

Pritchard didn't replace Larry, Walsh did, big difference.

D-BONE
11-14-2012, 08:38 AM
Pritchard didn't replace Larry, Walsh did, big difference.

And yet when we were in wheeling and dealing phase trading for Mahinmi, getting O. Johnson pick, signing Green & DJ - while we were still relatively giddy about just making moves - there was a lot of Pritchard worship going around.

I remember no small number of posts pulling out the "Pritch-slap" zinger. So when the moves are shiny, new, and only have upside, it's all about KP. When reality starts to take an ugly turn, it's suddenly all about DW?

Personally, I'll lay blame at both their feet. They both had input on all these personnel matters, right?

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 08:46 AM
And yet when we were in wheeling and dealing phase trading for Mahinmi, getting O. Johnson pick, signing Green & DJ - while we were still relatively giddy about just making moves - there was a lot of Pritchard worship going around.

I remember no small number of posts pulling out the "Pritch-slap" zinger. So when the moves are shiny, new, and only have upside, it's all about KP. When reality starts to take an ugly turn, it's suddenly all about DW?

Personally, I'll lay blame at both their feet. They both had input on all these personnel matters, right?

Yes they both deserve blame for what's happening, the thing is that to me this past off season smells a lot like Walsh, he is known for giving long term contracts to mediocre players, he is also known for falling in love with players and keeping them until they can't walk anymore, I think that if Pritchard was in charge we would have a different team.

This to me is like Murphleavy,Diener,Rasho,Kareem Rush all over again :puke:

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 09:49 AM
The play of this team right now is horrible, it is entirely inexplicable, and it is embarrassing. IF they somehow get it together in a few days and start playing well it won't change what happened the first 8 games of the season.

This team could win 70% of their games on out and we'll still look at each other at the end of the season and ask, "wtf happened those first 8 games? that was pathetic."

In other words, what they do in the future doesn't change what they've already done, and what they've already done is play **** poor basketball.

Doesn't makes all these "sky is falling" posts any less silly. We'd just look back and say "damn we had a rough stretch, and now I feel silly asking to trade Hibbert and PG and fire Vogel." Which is exactly what's going to happen.

A little pressure and having your butt applied to the fire never hurt any team, and it just may bring these guys together even more as the season goes on.

It's not like we have Kobe, Nash, and Howard, and then rashly fired Brown and brought in Mike D'Antoni after saying that PJ was 95% our guy. Y'all need to get a grip.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 09:59 AM
Where you are sailing is right back into rebuild mode. But poorly managed teams do just that. This team has had one winning season in the recent past, just one. You may not want to admit it but they are still rebuilding. If you start making all of those trades you are proposing, the rebuild over the last four or five years goes right out the window. This is your team. This is what you have. Work with them and keep adding pieces as you can... For those of you who were so happy to see Prichart take over over and Larry Bird leave, well, you got what you wanted, now live with it......:cool:

Well here's the thing, we may not be rebuilding right now, but its clear that without Danny, this team as currently constructed is going to be around that 34-40 win level that we were stuck under JOB for so many years. That is the LAST thing we want to do because then you're stuck with mid to low level draft prospects.

IMHO we have 3 realistic tradable assets in West, PG, and (maybe) Roy. Danny and Hill and their contracts are more meaningful to our team than they would be for any other team. Green and Mahinmi are cheap bench players that are inconsistent. DJ may be playing himself into a vets minimum next season if he keeps this up. So that saves 3 players, West for vet leadership and post scoring, PG for "potential", and Roy for (over priced) size. I'm not saying trade all 3, but we need to put together a team that isn't strong in only one area of play. Because when our post players struggle, we lose. And post play is the easiest style of offense to disrupt for opposing coaches.

Maybe I'm panicking because we've looked god awful all year. Or maybe I'm overreacting to the fact that since our game 3 win over the Heat we are 3-8. But I honestly wonder if last season was the peak for this group, and it'd be better to trade one of our pieces now and try something else, before we're held down by the core of PG, Roy and Hill for the next 5 seasons--none of which are offensively gifted enough (though Hill is a helluva player) to lead that core to a higher playoff seed in the near future.

Heisenberg
11-14-2012, 10:19 AM
Re-watch the games guys, take the live bias out of it. Really digest it. This team is not good. I don't know what happened last year but we clearly got really lucky. Hell watch last year's playoffs and ask yourself if you're cool with that. I got caught up in the hype I fully admit because we were finally good. But even then it's not like they were about to knock off Miami anytime soon.

I appreciate this team. They're great in the community, I don't think they'll have a problem making the playoffs in the god awful East. I don't want to just gloss over how good they are to the fanbase. But I don't care. I'm a Pacers fan because I want a championship. Get one someday and do anything short of move them. Get a title and never win 30 games again, fine with me.

This team's nowhere close to winning a title. Blow the ****ing thing up. Top to bottom. And very, very, VERY, unfortunately that includes Herb now. I'm tired of trying to moneyball the league. We're never going to win a title by drafting well in the mid-first and overpaying our own talent.

I'm out to see if I can make a couple billion on lemonade stands or bake sales or something. TANK TANK TANK TANK TANK.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 10:21 AM
I don't believe for a second that we were "lucky". Come on guys, we all watched that team, it was a strong team. We took the defending champs to 6 games; you don't do that being "lucky".

Blow the team up after 8 games, gotta be kiddin me.

Heisenberg
11-14-2012, 10:25 AM
I don't believe for a second that we were "lucky". Come on guys, we all watched that team, it was a strong team. We took the defending champs to 6 games; you don't do that being "lucky".

Blow the team up after 8 games, gotta be kiddin me.
We took Miami 6 after Bosh got hurt. The same Bosh that's (technically) the best center in the East this year. We beat a crap Orlando squad because Dwight got hurt. WE GOT LUCKY. Miami got serious and blew us off the damn floor.

It's not even about last year. Anyone think we're beating Miami in the next...forever? Cuz I don't.

McKeyFan
11-14-2012, 10:27 AM
Danny Granger does not make us a contender, but he is very, very important to this team. His presence may make the difference between making the playoffs or not.

Here's what we need to become a contender:

1. Granger comes back healthy
2. Roy plays to his potential
3. Lance becomes a key scorer/go-to playmaker
4. Trade Paul George for a low post piece that can play two ways. Currently we have an okay defender (Mahinmi) and a good scorer (West)

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 10:28 AM
I don't believe for a second that we were "lucky". Come on guys, we all watched that team, it was a strong team. We took the defending champs to 6 games; you don't do that being "lucky".

Blow the team up after 8 games, gotta be kiddin me.

Maybe that core just peaked last season nd it's time to make some changes. A lot of teams catch lightning in the bottle (championship Mavs team, that 8th seed GS team, WCF DEN team) and have miraculous playoff runs, only to come back to Earth a little the next season.

We obviously have some good players, we just don't fit so well together right now. The loss of DG magnifies it some, but it shouldn't be this bad.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 11:03 AM
It's completely fixable.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 11:03 AM
We took Miami 6 after Bosh got hurt. The same Bosh that's (technically) the best center in the East this year. We beat a crap Orlando squad because Dwight got hurt. WE GOT LUCKY. Miami got serious and blew us off the damn floor.

It's not even about last year. Anyone think we're beating Miami in the next...forever? Cuz I don't.

Then I will just respectfully disagree. Whole-heartedly. This is a good team going through a rough patch, that's all it is.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 11:08 AM
It is without a doubt. But the question is--what's the ceiling of this team if/when they get fixed? We're still a long ways away from DG returning. PG is till a 3rd option AT BEST right now. We still don't have any proven outside shooting threats. Vogel still can't come up with an effective and versatile offensive gameplan.

So though a lot of our probs can be fixed, how good can we be once they are? At what point does our lack of creativity/offensive options become a problem. Keep in mind, we're losing/staying compeittive with teams that arent that good. What happens when we play the good teams? What about the great ones?

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 11:17 AM
I don't believe for a second that we were "lucky". Come on guys, we all watched that team, it was a strong team. We took the defending champs to 6 games; you don't do that being "lucky".

Blow the team up after 8 games, gotta be kiddin me.

The Pacers were "lucky" that they didn't suffer a serious injury all last year. The Pacers were "lucky" that it was a shortened season and some players for other teams reported out of shape. The Pacers were "lucky" that they drew an Orlando team without Howard or they might have lost that series 4-0. They were "lucky" that Bosh got hurt and they won a couple of games against Miami. Miami made changes and their superstars blew the Pacers away. So, yes, they had a very "lucky" year. Some of us called it a "magic" year and posters like you hooted that down.... It isn't so magic this year is it....:cool:

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 11:19 AM
We took Miami 6 after Bosh got hurt. The same Bosh that's (technically) the best center in the East this year. We beat a crap Orlando squad because Dwight got hurt. WE GOT LUCKY. Miami got serious and blew us off the damn floor.

It's not even about last year. Anyone think we're beating Miami in the next...forever? Cuz I don't.

There were a few of us who were trying to point this out throughout the off season. Some of us expected the Pacers to move back in the pack because they didn't do anything to their starting unit. Where are all of those folks now who insist we had the best staring unit in the entire NBA?? Time to eat some crow, guys. Many of you were overrating this team by a whole lot....:cool:

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 11:20 AM
I'm not eating crow. It's been 8 games. We don't have our best player. There's nothing that's been "proved". It's simply a good team in a bad patch.

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 11:24 AM
Then I will just respectfully disagree. Whole-heartedly. This is a good team going through a rough patch, that's all it is.

It is a rough patch but it is more than that too. You and others here thought this team was a lot better than it is. Some of you were picking 58 to 60+ wins for this team this year. Some of us with our feet on the ground knew how lucky they were last year to not suffer any major injuries and to have a superstar sidelined in their first playoff round and another star injured in their second round although the two superstars adjusted and blew the Pacers away. Several of us suggested the Pacers were going to come back to the field and finish 5th or 6th in the east at around 48-34 and if they had a major injury, they would have to scramble to get the eighth seed and make the playoffs at all. Larry Bird knew this team way overperformed last year and when Simon wouldn't come on board to pursue a superstar or two, Bird bailed..... The result that you say was inevitable. It was bound to happen as soon as they had an injury to a key player.... Do you still think this (even with Granger) is the best starting unit in the entire NBA? :cool:

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 11:27 AM
It's completely fixable.

No, it isn't. Fact: the Pacers have never been able to get a superstar to come to this team. They won't any time soon either. The closest they ever came was Reggie Miller and he was a star but not a superstar. They kept him and they even got to the finals one year..... This is not likely to happen again and the real problem is that the owner is not driven to win a title. He is content with a team that can make the playoffs and win a first round series once in a while.... That is why we no longer have Larry Bird. I think Bird will come back with a large market team and try to win it all. He certainly knew enought to jump off of this ship when it was timely....:cool:

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 11:29 AM
I'm not eating crow. It's been 8 games. We don't have our best player. There's nothing that's been "proved". It's simply a good team in a bad patch.

You will be eating crow. I have had to do it with the Colts because they are just better than almost anyone thought they could be. I still don't like Luck but one has to admit when one is completely wrong. You are completely wrong. You may never again have the player who was your best player. You will get Granger back but he may not be the Granger of old and even if he is, it won't solve all of these problems...:cool:

Rogco
11-14-2012, 11:39 AM
I'm not ready to jump ship just yet. There was bad (a whole lot of bad), but I'm trying to focus on the positives from last night (and yes, there were a couple). First off, Lance is beginning to look like a player. Second, I think Hans is beginning to find his role on the team. Third, we created a lot of shots around the basket for Hibbert and West. and Four, the defense is looking pretty good. I don't think I've ever seen a team miss so many shots at the rim, and I can only hope that if were to play that game again, those shots would start to fall and we would have won easily.

Kid Minneapolis
11-14-2012, 11:50 AM
You will be eating crow. I have had to do it with the Colts because they are just better than almost anyone thought they could be. I still don't like Luck but one has to admit when one is completely wrong. You are completely wrong. You may never again have the player who was your best player. You will get Granger back but he may not be the Granger of old and even if he is, it won't solve all of these problems...:cool:

I was right about Luck, and I'm right about this. You don't jump ship after 8 games. You've had this issue twice now, jumping ship when your team goes through a rough patch. You're the opposite of a fan. You think you're "on" to something with the teams you "support", but you're not. You're more interested in predicting failure so you can prove everyone that you're right instead of just supporting your team.

I know what I'm looking at with this team --- it's not the JOB-era losers. This is a decent team and it's a rough start to their year. It's all it is.

LuckSwagger
11-14-2012, 11:58 AM
So, what do the Pacers need to do for OlBlu to "no longer have interest in them" too? Really don't want to see this forum get trashed as well...

Kstat
11-14-2012, 12:11 PM
It is fair to say that the pacers do not have their best scorer (calling him your best player considering hibbert's new contract is not really fair), but that doesn't change anything, considering that he's out what, another 40-50 games?

The pacers are in trouble right now, and nothing short of a trade is going to change that.

The best case scenario is that hibbert starts playing up to his contract, but that won't solve the perimeter scoring issues

count55
11-14-2012, 12:13 PM
It is fair to say that the pacers do not have their best scorer (calling him your best player considering hibbert's new contract is not really fair), but that doesn't change anything, considering that he's out what, another 40-50 games?

The pacers are in trouble right now, and mothering short of a trade is going to change that.

Swype or voice recognition?

Kstat
11-14-2012, 12:15 PM
Swype or voice recognition?

iPad. Autocorrect sucks.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 12:19 PM
It is fair to say that the pacers do not have their best scorer (calling him your best player considering hibbert's new contract is not really fair), but that doesn't change anything, considering that he's out what, another 40-50 games?

The pacers are in trouble right now, and nothing short of a trade is going to change that.

The best case scenario is that hibbert starts playing up to his contract, but that won't solve the perimeter scoring issues

Yep they need to make a trade, no for another scrub either, the only problem is that the only asset they have is West and knowing the Pacers front office I don't see them trading him anytime soon.

Also for those that don't know Hill and Roy can only be traded after June 15th.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 12:25 PM
:rolleyes:


Just a hideous display of basketball in Indiana on Tuesday, but somebody had to win, and it was the Toronto Raptors.
After suffering a tough loss in triple-overtime just the night before, the Raptors will take the win any way they could get it. But the team set a record for futility in the process.
It was a good thing that Toronto somehow carried an 11-point lead into the fourth quarter, because they only managed to score five points in the final period. It was the lowest fourth-quarter point total by a winning team in the shot clock era, or since the 1955-56 season (via ESPN Stats & Info).
That’s 56 years.
Kurt Helin broke doen some of the numbers in our recap post — In the second half, Toronto shot just 6-of-33 from the field and committed seven turnovers. The fourth quarter was particularly brutal, one where the Raptors went 1-of-15 from the field, while committing five turnovers and getting outrebounded by seven.
And yet, they still won.
The Pacers are a disaster since Danny Granger went down with injury, and with Roy Hibbert playing like Jamaal Magloire reincarnated — you know, one questionable All-Star selection, followed by many seasons of playing nowhere near that level — Indiana is going to be doing a lot of losing.
But dropping this one to the Raptors, after they had Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon each playing over 48 minutes the night before, and DeMar DeRozan playing a whopping 60 — well, that’s got to be way more embarrassing than the record-setting fourth quarter from Toronto, despite its place in the history books.


@basketballtalk: Raptors set record for futility in win over Pacers http://t.co/soeioYJG #PBT #NBA

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 12:28 PM
Yep they need to make a trade, no for another scrub either, the only problem is that the only asset they have is West and knowing the Pacers front office I don't see them trading him anytime soon.

Also for those that don't know Hill and Roy can only be traded after June 15th.

I thought Hill and Roy could be traded after December 15th.

I wouldn't want to trade Hill anyways, he's playing great, and if he had better options around him, he'd be a good closer for this team.

I agree that West (and maybe PG) are our most attractive trade assets. Though I have many, I don't want to throw around any trade ideas. But we definitely need someone that is either a really good/consistent shooter (ala Kevin Martin) or a ball handling scoring type of guard (ala Monta). Those types of players would definitely help the pacers perimeter offense.

Just my two cents

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 02:02 PM
Is anyone ever going to call out Vnzla on the flip flop that he was one of the people driving the get rid of DC train? And even for a while was driving the bring Augustin in trade because he's a lot better than DC?

No offense Vnzla, but it's very humorous to me how hard you are on the bench now, even though you pretty much hated DC while he was here and you were always hyping up Augustin.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 02:13 PM
Is anyone ever going to call out Vnzla on the flip flop that he was one of the people driving the get rid of DC train? And even for a while was driving the bring Augustin in trade because he's a lot better than DC?

No offense Vnzla, but it's very humorous to me how hard you are on the bench now, even though you pretty much hated DC while he was here and you were always hyping up Augustin.

I was also one that hated DC while he was here and thought DJ would be an improvement as well. Lol, but DC NEVER looked as good here as he has with Dal. If he did, we would've never brought in Hill, he never would have lost his starting spot to injury, and we wouldn't have looked to trade him during the off-season.

Obviously DAL is a better fit for DC, but what compounded the problem was bringing in DJ to replace him. We obviously needed someone that was a better scorer/shooter as opposed to someone that is good at setting up other individuals.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 02:16 PM
Collison was always a very good, efficient scorer while he was here.

Our coach is to blame for why our point guards are used the way they are when it comes to passing.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 02:21 PM
Collison was always a very good, efficient scorer while he was here.

Our coach is to blame for why our point guards are used the way they are when it comes to passing.

DC was an efficient scorer, but averaging 10 and 11 ppg isnt exactly a "good" scorer.

BUT

DC in DAL looks a lot like DC in NO which is not the DC we saw for most of the time here in IND. Like you said, the coaching and the system have as much to do with it then anything. I prob would have actually liked DC when he was here had he been able to play the game the way he was in NO and has in DAL.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 02:24 PM
I honestly can't complain about DC's time here at all. I thought how he was used last year until we hit the playoffs was a joke. As a second year player here on a team in transition he averaged 13 and 5 while shooting 45%. I thought that was pretty good production.

Unclebuck
11-14-2012, 02:33 PM
Collison was always a very good, efficient scorer while he was here.

Our coach is to blame for why our point guards are used the way they are when it comes to passing.

which coaches. How far back are we going to go in blaming coaches for our ex-players.

I'll admit Augustin has been terrible and he IMO has been by far the biggest disappointment of the new guys, but the suggestions that seem to be growing that Collison was better than he is are just wrong. Collison is a very flawed player, he had to be traded, as it is very difficult to move a former starter to the bench.

CableKC
11-14-2012, 02:39 PM
which coaches. How far back are we going to go in blaming coaches for our ex-players.

I'll admit Augustin has been terrible and he IMO has been by far the biggest disappointment of the new guys, but the suggestions that seem to be growing that Collison was better than he is are just wrong. Collison is a very flawed player, he had to be traded, as it is very difficult to move a former starter to the bench.
Isn't that what we did with Augustin?

3rdStrike
11-14-2012, 02:41 PM
I think the saddest thing is that the team is waiting on Granger and in turn some on this board are waiting for Granger to return like some 23 year old do it all superstar player-coach who descends upon arenas with angel's wings and hands out multiple blu-ray compilations of his game winning shots to fans.


The real Granger didn't even have surgery. Why? I do not know. What I do know is that there isn't even a guarantee that his injection will fix the problem. You all could be waiting for Santa Claus.

If the people using the Granger clutch (including Vogel, pathetic as it is) still feel the way that they do, understand that they will continue to trot out that built in excuse for at least the next three months, and possibly the entire season.

So basically, if Vogel isn't going to accept accountability, then he's pretty much saying nothing that happens over the next 3 months means anything.

Kuq_e_Zi91
11-14-2012, 02:43 PM
Sorry but I can't help not posting anymore. new member here from the Philippines. I actually made a new account since I can't post with my 6month old account before. JO with that max contract at least lived up to his hype until injuries bothered him. I don't see that in Hibbert. He can't even handle the pressure that comes with being the highest paid player. And if he really did cry? Please!!!! Enough sulking already! get your heads up high for ****st's sake!! This team almost always talks about smashmouth basketball. The Fever never talked about or claimed they were but they looked more smashmouth to me.

Larkins, all 6'1 205 of her, would bully and steal Roy's lunch money right now. And Catch? I'd do anything to have her on this team. At least I know she'll leave everything on the floor and won't make stupid mistakes or play afraid.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 02:43 PM
I honestly can't complain about DC's time here at all. I thought how he was used last year until we hit the playoffs was a joke. As a second year player here on a team in transition he averaged 13 and 5 while shooting 45%. I thought that was pretty good production.

Then he regressed to 10 and just under 5 assists per game on 44%. Not bad numbers no, but those also aren't "the PG of the future" type of production at all. And this was without mentioning his lack of vision, struggles to get the ball into the post, average at best defense.

If he could handle being a backup PG, he would've been great on this team. BUT he wanted to be the starter and the FO wanted Hill to be the starter.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 02:50 PM
Is anyone ever going to call out Vnzla on the flip flop that he was one of the people driving the get rid of DC train? And even for a while was driving the bring Augustin in trade because he's a lot better than DC?

No offense Vnzla, but it's very humorous to me how hard you are on the bench now, even though you pretty much hated DC while he was here and you were always hyping up Augustin.

I don't know what you need to call me out for? Yes I wanted DJ as the starter over DC last year, that doesn't mean that I don't think DC is a better bench player, to me DJ is a better starter than bench player and DC is a better bench player than starter at least here.

By the way that does not mean that I'm not disappointed with what DJ is giving us, out of the 4 bench players they brought here I expected him to be better than the other 3 and so far he has been garbage, I would also like to ad that the coaches have some blame on this, they keep trying to run the same offensive system they run with the starters instead of an up tempo offense were DJ can be pretty good at, right now they keep running Mahinmi post up plays and ISO's lol.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 02:53 PM
DC is a better basketball player than DJ period.

IMO, DC was a big part of the culture change on this team. he played hard and he played every night. no he was not a perfect player, but George Hill at point guard is? I think the thing that is pissing me off the most right now is that DC and Hill in the backcourt intrigues me a hell of a lot more than what we are currently working with, maybe that was our mistake.

BillS
11-14-2012, 02:58 PM
Isn't that what we did with Augustin?

You can do that with a player changing teams, there's no need to deal with a different relationship among the same teammates.

Kuq_e_Zi91
11-14-2012, 03:03 PM
DJ is a rhythm player. He's used to playing 30 min a game and setting other players up, controlling the flow of the game, etc. DC is a sparkplug you can get instant offense from. They are two completely different players. I liked the DJ in Charlotte because he was the ultimate team player, and he kept his poise despite the horrendous work environment around him.

The problem right now is you have a starter, a 30 min a game player trying to adapt to a limited role of about 10-15 min a game. He's just not used to it, he's not comfortable and you can tell. He's making passes he usually wouldn't make to compensate for his lack of playing time. He's pressing and he's thinking too much when he's shooting.

As crazy as it sounds considering how awful he's played, DJ needs more minutes if you want him to play better. I'd probably cut some of Lance or Green's minutes and shift Hill to the two, playing DJ and Hill together. But for some reason, this coaching staff insists that Hill is solely a point guard. I guess they want to recapture that chemistry from last season, but that's long gone now.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 03:04 PM
Maybe the Pacers should have kept bring HIll off the bench then. he was pretty happy in that role. I think it was a mistake to make Hill the starter when DC came back. Fine if you want to do it in the offseason, but I think it really forced our hand to do it how we did in season, it is a fairly unwritten rule in sports that a starter should not lose their spot over a short term injury. And the thing that was mised is that while we were good with Hill as the starter, it is not like we were bad with DC.

vnzla81
11-14-2012, 03:05 PM
DC is a better basketball player than DJ period.

IMO, DC was a big part of the culture change on this team. he played hard and he played every night. no he was not a perfect player, but George Hill at point guard is? I think the thing that is pissing me off the most right now is that DC and Hill in the backcourt intrigues me a hell of a lot more than what we are currently working with, maybe that was our mistake.

My issues is not about trading DC my issue was that they traded him for a really bad backup center, by the way I don't think is a surprised that DC wanted to be traded so the Pacers had to trade him.

What's grinding my gears is that I think they could have done better in a trade for DC.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 03:06 PM
DJ is a rhythm player. He's used to playing 30 min a game and setting other players up, controlling the flow of the game, etc. DC is a sparkplug you can get instant offense from. They are two completely different players. I liked the DJ in Charlotte because he was the ultimate team player, and he kept his poise despite the horrendous work environment around him.

The problem right now is you have a starter, a 30 min a game player trying to adapt to a limited role of about 10-15 min a game. He's just not used to it, he's not comfortable and you can tell. He's making passes he usually wouldn't make to compensate for his lack of playing time. He's pressing and he's thinking too much when he's shooting.

As crazy as it sounds considering how awful he's played, DJ needs more minutes if you want him to play better. I'd probably cut some of Lance or Green's minutes and shift Hill to the two, playing DJ and Hill together. But for some reason, this coaching staff insists that Hill is solely a point guard. I guess they want to recapture that chemistry from last season, but that's long gone now.

DJ Augustin is not a rhythm player. He is a guy who played 30 MPG on some really bad teams while shooting around 38% from the field. I bought into a lot of the crap the Pacers were shilling about him "being a better fit", but honestly that was a bad move on my part. Especially when I was always a DC guy while he was here. I got too distracted by the shiny tin foil instead of going with what I had been saying for two years and shame on me for that.

DJ Augustin ultimate team player? Yeah...I don't know about that.

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 03:11 PM
Maybe the Pacers should have kept bring HIll off the bench then. he was pretty happy in that role. I think it was a mistake to make Hill the starter when DC came back. Fine if you want to do it in the offseason, but I think it really forced our hand to do it how we did in season, it is a fairly unwritten rule in sports that a starter should not lose their spot over a short term injury. And the thing that was mised is that while we were good with Hill as the starter, it is not like we were bad with DC.

We weren't bad with DC as our starter at all, but we really hit our stride and became REALLY good with Hill as the starter. Hill is probably playing the best out of anybody on the Pacers right now, and has been the closer for this team for quite some time. I'm kinda confused why you're hating on him when he's kicking a$$ and earning that contract right now.

Hill MAY have been okay with coming off the bench, but if he's the better player, why continue to bring him off the bench? Just to appease DC? Collison is good, but he's not THAT good.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 03:12 PM
Who says I am hating on Hill?

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 03:13 PM
I guess I took you saying "we should have kept Hill as the backup" a hating on Hill.

mattie
11-14-2012, 07:16 PM
Listen Hill is slowly developing into probably the Pacers second, maybe greatest point guard ever. Seriously. He's the only player playing well right now. The last thing we need to do is moving him to the "2" so our garbage backup point guard DJ can get more minutes.

The reason DJ isn't playing well is he NEVER played well. He isn't very good. I think once someone comes in and fixes this cluster***** of a team you'll see DJ play better off the bench once he gets acclimated to the role.

Hill isn't a "traditional" point, but then again neither is every point guard outside of Deron, CP3, Nash, Rondo and that's about it. There's a few borderline guys like Mike Conley, but for the most part every point in the league is a shoot-first type point guard.

I'm no fan of Hill's contract, but it isn't crippling and he could be a point guard for a championship level team. The problem with this team right now is EVERYONE ELSE. There is the problem. So, let's start a fire sale.

Edit - anyone upset about the fact that the Pacers could of had Harden? IMagine Harden/Hill back court? man that'd be badass.

Had we used Paul George as the main asset the Pacers could of landed Harden possibly. But people like me thought George was going to be a star. (har)

Edit 2 - Real quick compare Hill's numbers against Mike Conley. I like Conley because he's essentially the perfect point. He's not a superstar taking up all your cap space, but he's a great defender, and then a willing and able passer thought not near the talents of guys like Rondo. He's also blossomed into a real good shooter which means he's a threat from nearly every aspect on the court. Just a real solid player.

Well, Hill is creeping on Conley's abilities. Hill is averaging more points at 15.5 (vs 14.8) but less assists at 5.5. (vs 6.8) I'll like Hill's numbers and I like how he's running the offense. The nice thing is, while Conley has come out playing his best basketball that probably won't be sustainable, Hill is still a little rusty and is not shooting at the level we know he can.

We'll most likely see Hill's numbers continue to trend upwards. Hill at the end of the season might make the case to being a top 10 point guard, and in a league of superstar point guards, that is saying something.

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 07:35 PM
Listen Hill is slowly developing into probably the Pacers second, maybe greatest point guard ever. Seriously. He's the only player playing well right now. The last thing we need to do is moving him to the "2" so our garbage backup point guard DJ can get more minutes.

The reason DJ isn't playing well is he NEVER played well. He isn't very good. I think once someone comes in and fixes this cluster***** of a team you'll see DJ play better off the bench once he gets acclimated to the role.

Hill isn't a "traditional" point, but then again neither is every point guard outside of Deron, CP3, Nash, Rondo and that's about it. There's a few borderline guys like Mike Conley, but for the most part every point in the league is a shoot-first type point guard.

I'm no fan of Hill's contract, but it isn't crippling and he could be a point guard for a championship level team. The problem with this team right now is EVERYONE ELSE. There is the problem. So, let's start a fire sale.

Edit - anyone upset about the fact that the Pacers could of had Harden? IMagine Harden/Hill back court? man that'd be badass.

Had we used Paul George as the main asset the Pacers could of landed Harden possibly. But people like me thought George was going to be a star. (har)

Edit 2 - Real quick compare Hill's numbers against Mike Conley. I like Conley because he's essentially the perfect point. He's not a superstar taking up all your cap space, but he's a great defender, and then a willing and able passer thought not near the talents of guys like Rondo. He's also blossomed into a real good shooter which means he's a threat from nearly every aspect on the court. Just a real solid player.

Well, Hill is creeping on Conley's abilities. Hill is averaging more points at 15.5 (vs 14.8) but less assists at 5.5. (vs 6.8) I'll like Hill's numbers and I like how he's running the offense. The nice thing is, while Conley has come out playing his best basketball that probably won't be sustainable, Hill is still a little rusty and is not shooting at the level we know he can.

We'll most likely see Hill's numbers continue to trend upwards. Hill at the end of the season might make the case to being a top 10 point guard, and in a league of superstar point guards, that is saying something.

Harden signed for $80 million dollars. The Pacers would never pay anyone that and that is one of the reasons they do not have and will not get a superstar....:cool:

Ace E.Anderson
11-14-2012, 10:21 PM
Maybe the Pacers should have kept bring HIll off the bench then. he was pretty happy in that role. I think it was a mistake to make Hill the starter when DC came back. Fine if you want to do it in the offseason, but I think it really forced our hand to do it how we did in season, it is a fairly unwritten rule in sports that a starter should not lose their spot over a short term injury. And the thing that was mised is that while we were good with Hill as the starter, it is not like we were bad with DC.

You know Joe, maybe we made the mistake of keeping PG over DC. Maybe we should have pushed DC/Hill backcourt as opposed to having a DC or Hill backcourt with PG. We've been force feeding PG minutes but maybe we should have regulated him to the bench, while maintaining a DC/G HILL backcourt....just a thought.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 11:32 PM
You know Joe, maybe we made the mistake of keeping PG over DC. Maybe we should have pushed DC/Hill backcourt as opposed to having a DC or Hill backcourt with PG. We've been force feeding PG minutes but maybe we should have regulated him to the bench, while maintaining a DC/G HILL backcourt....just a thought.

That's a possibility too. I don't know that it would have fixed it. I'd be a big fan of having a DC, Hill, PG, 1-2-3 right now.

aamcguy
11-14-2012, 11:34 PM
That's a possibility too. I don't know that it would have fixed it. I'd be a big fan of having a DC, Hill, PG, 1-2-3 right now.

If that had happened, we would probably be 5-4 or 4-5 and the board would be complaining about our small lineup.

Trader Joe
11-14-2012, 11:35 PM
If that had happened, we would probably be 5-4 or 4-5 and the board would be complaining about our small lineup.

I was expecting us to be 5-4 after this game when I went through the schedule before the season after we knew Danny was out. So I would have been OK with that.

aamcguy
11-14-2012, 11:42 PM
I was expecting us to be 5-4 after this game when I went through the schedule before the season after we knew Danny was out. So I would have been OK with that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but before Collison was traded it was pretty widely accepted that it was obvious we had to choose either Hill or Collison for our team if 1 was to be our starting PG. People by and large tend to forget when evaluating roster changes that the changes are made based on evaluation of talent and the speculation of how it fits together.

PaceBalls
11-14-2012, 11:50 PM
People by and large tend to forget when evaluating roster changes that the changes are made based on evaluation of talent and the speculation of how it fits together.

This is my biggest gripe right now with the front office and the moves they made. The new guys do not fit this teams identity. Which was smart "smashmouth" basketball. Not flashy plays with bad court awareness, or lazy defense.

OlBlu
11-15-2012, 07:54 AM
This is my biggest gripe right now with the front office and the moves they made. The new guys do not fit this teams identity. Which was smart "smashmouth" basketball. Not flashy plays with bad court awareness, or lazy defense.

People claimed our starting five was the best unit in all of the NBA. Well, it wasn't true when they said it and you see the proof now. Granger is not a superstar and his being out is not causing all of these problems.....:cool:

LoneGranger33
11-15-2012, 08:35 AM
Edit 2 - Real quick compare Hill's numbers against Mike Conley. I like Conley because he's essentially the perfect point. He's not a superstar taking up all your cap space, but he's a great defender, and then a willing and able passer thought not near the talents of guys like Rondo. He's also blossomed into a real good shooter which means he's a threat from nearly every aspect on the court. Just a real solid player.

Well, Hill is creeping on Conley's abilities. Hill is averaging more points at 15.5 (vs 14.8) but less assists at 5.5. (vs 6.8) I'll like Hill's numbers and I like how he's running the offense. The nice thing is, while Conley has come out playing his best basketball that probably won't be sustainable, Hill is still a little rusty and is not shooting at the level we know he can.

We'll most likely see Hill's numbers continue to trend upwards. Hill at the end of the season might make the case to being a top 10 point guard, and in a league of superstar point guards, that is saying something.

George Hill: 14.1 points on .407 shooting (.275 3pt %), 4.7 assists, 4.1 rebounds, 1.1 steals and 2.1 turnovers (Pacers are 3-6)
Mike Conley: 13.9 points on .473 shooting (.360 3pt %), 6.9 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 1.7 steals and 3.0 turnovers (Grizzlies are 6-1)

Statistically, you could probably argue that he's one of the ten worst in the league right now. Now you can blame most of that on our ****** system, but George Hill is still no superstar.

Ace E.Anderson
11-15-2012, 08:53 AM
George Hill: 14.1 points on .407 shooting (.275 3pt %), 4.7 assists, 4.1 rebounds, 1.1 steals and 2.1 turnovers (Pacers are 3-6)
Mike Conley: 13.9 points on .473 shooting (.360 3pt %), 6.9 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 1.7 steals and 3.0 turnovers (Grizzlies are 6-1)

Statistically, you could probably argue that he's one of the ten worst in the league right now. Now you can blame most of that on our ****** system, but George Hill is still no superstar.

10 worst? He's almost singlehandely won 2 more games for us, while hitting a clutch shot in 2 of our 3 wins. Last night( and the SA game) hurt his shooting %. He's been great. Yes he's had a bad game or two but he's a 3rd/4th option guy, not a 2nd option which he's been forced into and still done an admirable job. Hill isn't a part of the problem here, he'll be a part of the solution if we ever come to one.

LoneGranger33
11-15-2012, 09:17 AM
10 worst? He's almost singlehandely won 2 more games for us, while hitting a clutch shot in 2 of our 3 wins. Last night( and the SA game) hurt his shooting %. He's been great. Yes he's had a bad game or two but he's a 3rd/4th option guy, not a 2nd option which he's been forced into and still done an admirable job. Hill isn't a part of the problem here, he'll be a part of the solution if we ever come to one.

Are superstars or all-stars usually 3rd or 4th options? My argument was simply that George Hill is neither. He's easily the most overrated Pacer of the past decade. Now, when I say he's overrated, I don't mean to diminish his contributions this year or last. He's one of the few that is not playing like absolute crap this season. However, an all-star he is not (and I don't think he'll ever be). Also note that I said you could argue he's one of the ten worst statistically. I don't think he's one of the ten worst in the league, not for a minute, but he ranks 35th in assists per game (after such point guard luminaries as A.J. Price and J.J. Reddick - and tied with All-Star point guard Marc Gasol) and his shooting is hovering just above 40%. Shannon Brown is averaging the same 14 points on .407 shooting! He'll never be among the ten best point guards in the league because of the depth of talent at that position, but also because he's just not that great of a point guard.

Ace E.Anderson
11-15-2012, 10:57 AM
Are superstars or all-stars usually 3rd or 4th options? .
James Harden, Manu Ginobili, Lamar Odom, Jason Terry, Dennis Johnson back in the day, the list goes on. Just because he isn't a super-superstar doesn't mean he isn't a really good player. He's been the closer more times than not since he's gotten here.



He's easily the most overrated Pacer of the past decade. .

Darren Collison, Mike Dunleavy, hell ROY HIBBERT..... You may not think much of G.Hill but I'm damn glad we got him.