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90'sNBARocked
11-12-2012, 11:54 AM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-sunday-free-agency-awaits-david-west/


The 2013 free agency class will be headlined by All-Stars Chris Paul, Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum next summer, but the crop figures to be a deep group at every position well beyond the headliners.

One of the players expected to attract plenty of attention from executives around the league in free agency is Indiana Pacers forward David West. The veteran is in the last year of his contract, a two-year $20 million deal, signed in December 2011. The last time West was in this position he was in the process of recovering from a torn left ACL suffered at the end of the 2011 campaign.

One of West’s primary objectives this season is to prove to everyone his knee is fully recovered after working his way back most of last season.

“I feel like I’m in pretty good shape as far as my health” West said to HOOPSWORLD. “I feel one hundred times better than last year just coming off the knee surgery.”

West, 32, is at the age where most frontcourt players start to decline but the veteran has been hot to start the season averaging 16.7 points and 8.6 rebounds through the Pacers’ first seven games.

Given his age and recent knee injury West knows the microscope is focused on his game more than ever, but he says he won’t let his uncertain future become a distraction.

“I’m just trying to have a productive year,” West said regarding his goal headed into free agency. “I don’t really base my play on what’s out there looming. I just try to go out do my job and stay focused on the moment and what we have to do to right now.”

The Pacers already have $57 million in committed salary on the books for the 2013-14 season, after new deals for Roy Hibbert, Ian Mahinmi and Gerald Green were reached this past summer. Emerging forward Paul George could potentially test the market at the end of the 2014-15 campaign as well, making the need for the small market Pacers to keep an eye on expenses on the top of their agenda.

While West wants to be a Pacer long term he acknowledges there could be financial challenges, which stand in the way. For now West wants to concentrate on winning games, believing the rest will play itself out at the appropriate time.

“It’s one of those situations,” West said when asked if he wanted to remain in Indiana long term. “My main objective is to try to win [here]. I feel like this group has an opportunity to do that. Obviously with Danny [Granger] out it changes and makes things a little more difficult for us this year, but again we feel like with the group that we have and with Danny at full strength we can compete.”

The Pacers will be without the services of former All-Star and leading scorer Danny Granger for the next three months as he nurses a knee injury. Indiana will need West’s production during this time to stay in the thick of the Eastern Conference playoff mix.

MillerTime
11-12-2012, 12:09 PM
I concerly hope the Pacers re-sign him. He's been our only constant.

He's a great leader for this young team. The 2 year contract which he signed was a short contract to test his knee (which to me seems fine now). Given his age, I'd be happy if we gave him $35-$40 million over 3 years.

spreedom
11-12-2012, 12:11 PM
3 years, $22 million... assuming he keeps this up.

MillerTime
11-12-2012, 12:13 PM
3 years, $22 million... assuming he keeps this up.

He's making $10 million per Season now....he's going to demand more (and most likely it)

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 12:20 PM
Pacers need to trade him, get something of value before losing him for nothing, Im expecting that at some point the Pacers learn their leason, or they can get burn again if they feel like it.

Rogco
11-12-2012, 12:26 PM
I'm assuming that if Hibbert is Max, then West is Max+

Trader Joe
11-12-2012, 12:27 PM
Pacers need to trade him, get something of value before losing him for nothing, Im expecting that at some point the Pacers learn their leason, or they can get burn again if they feel like it.

I agree with you on this sort of thing for once. Pacers can't stand pat on this front court. I would move one of Hibbert or West this season. Depending on who can bring higher return. Sucks to say that because I like both of them, but the fact is we're sort of between a rock and a hard place at the moment when it comes to how to move forward. We still need to make moves, and while PG will never be a superstar he is too damn versatile IMO to just toss away unless someone offers you a huge package for him, but I just don't see that happening. So West or Hibbert seems to be the best place to bring in some assets. I know that opinion is not going to be incredibly popular, but I think it's pretty true about the team right now unless Roy starts scoring 15 a night at a 50% shooting clip all of a sudden.

purdue101
11-12-2012, 12:28 PM
There will be several PF options in FA next summer (Jefferson, Milsap, Josh Smith, West, Landry, etc), so that should drive the price down somewhat. I would hope we could get West or Landry for 3 years 25M and resign Hansbrough as a backup for 3-4M per season. Smith, Milsap, and Jefferson will cost more. We have plenty of room under the cap next summer to spend that kind of money, the issue is the following year when both Granger and PG are entering free agency. Next summer, if we invest 12M/yr for both the starting and backup PF positions, we are at $44M without resigning Granger, PG, Stephenson, a backup PG, and rounding out the roster with 3-4 additional players. Let's assume Stephenson, a good backup PG, and the remaining roster players cost $8M/yr, we are at $52M or only $20M under the luxury tax with no starting wings. PG will cost us $12M + per year, which means either Danny will take a paycut to $8M or less or we look elsewhere.

Trader Joe
11-12-2012, 12:28 PM
I'm assuming that if Hibbert is Max, then West is Max+

No way. West will not get more than Hibbert, even if he is the superior player. He is older and does have an injury history with his knee now. Just the way contracts work in the NBA.

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 12:40 PM
If you trade one you trade West as he is older. In the long term you are more likely to get a better return than on Hibbert. It seems to me West is at a point in his career where I think he would take less to stay with or go to a championship contender than a non-contender, which could bode well for us re-signing him.

spreedom
11-12-2012, 12:45 PM
He's making $10 million per Season now....he's going to demand more (and most likely it)

Unless you think West is an undeniable go-to guy that you can count on for 70+ games per year, you can't pay him that much money. He's a #2 or #3 player... you can't give him $11-12M a year. And we won't.

MnvrChvy
11-12-2012, 01:10 PM
... PG will cost us $12M + per year...

If PG wants $12M a year, you let him walk and laugh at the taker. Love the kid, but he hasn't proven anything yet, and $12M is 'proven' money.

MnvrChvy
11-12-2012, 01:14 PM
Unless you think West is an undeniable go-to guy that you can count on for 70+ games per year, you can't pay him that much money. He's a #2 or #3 player... you can't give him $11-12M a year. And we won't.

I do think all of that about him actually, but I agree that 12 million will be too much for us to pay. Someone else will though, and that sucks. West is my favorite player to watch right now.

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 01:20 PM
I do think all of that about him actually, but I agree that 12 million will be too much for us to pay. Someone else will though, and that sucks. West is my favorite player to watch right now.

The question is who is willing to pay that? If it is the Wizards I am betting he will take 9 or 10 million to stay here and a chance for a championship. If it is another contender, well then we might be screwed.

spreedom
11-12-2012, 01:29 PM
If PG wants $12M a year, you let him walk and laugh at the taker. Love the kid, but he hasn't proven anything yet, and $12M is 'proven' money.


The question is who is willing to pay that? If it is the Wizards I am betting he will take 9 or 10 million to stay here and a chance for a championship. If it is another contender, well then we might be screwed.


He's a young kid with a lot of potential. If he hits the open market in two years some team (Kings, Hornets, Mavericks, Wolves, etc) is going to give him a max- or near-max contact offer. And he isn't going to take a huge discount on his first NBA contract. We'd have to match a huge offer to keep him.

CableKC
11-12-2012, 01:34 PM
Let's step back and look at the current Financial situation before figuring out how much to pay West.

At the start of the 2013-2014 Offseason.....the Pacers have roughly $49 mil in guaranteed Salary owed to 8 Players ( not including the 2013-2014 1st and 2nd round draft picks ):

Hibbert
Granger
GHill
Mahinmi
Green
PGeorge
Plumlee
Orlando

We have 4 Free Agents:

Tyler - RFA
Lance - RFA ( or UFA? not sure which since he's a 2nd round pick )
Ben - RFA
Pendegraph - UFA

I forget.....even as a UFA.....are the Pacers allowed to go over the Salary Cap to sign West?

I know that as a RFA...the Pacers can go over the SalaryCap to sign their own RFAs...but I don't know if the same applies to UFAs.

BTW....if there is any Player that would likely be traded before the February 2012-2013 Trade deadline....my $$$ is on the older Hansbrough.....not West. Also...IMHO...I think that Granger will likely be moved in the 2013-2014 offseason.

ChicagoJ
11-12-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm not sure he'll be able to get that on the open market, but all of these scenarios in which you replace West with a younger PF are still missing something...

We're back to the 2010 Pacers, a nice team without a go-to guy.

Our go-to guy is only costing us $10 mil/ season, and that's quite a bargain for proven go-to guys.

If the money gets that tight, somebody else needs to be the one talking a walk or traded for a bit of cap relief.

CableKC
11-12-2012, 01:37 PM
The question is who is willing to pay that? If it is the Wizards I am betting he will take 9 or 10 million to stay here and a chance for a championship. If it is another contender, well then we might be screwed.
The question is which Teams have the Capspace to make an offer at 9 to 10 mil a year.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 01:42 PM
I agree with you on this sort of thing for once. Pacers can't stand pat on this front court. I would move one of Hibbert or West this season. Depending on who can bring higher return. Sucks to say that because I like both of them, but the fact is we're sort of between a rock and a hard place at the moment when it comes to how to move forward. We still need to make moves, and while PG will never be a superstar he is too damn versatile IMO to just toss away unless someone offers you a huge package for him, but I just don't see that happening. So West or Hibbert seems to be the best place to bring in some assets. I know that opinion is not going to be incredibly popular, but I think it's pretty true about the team right now unless Roy starts scoring 15 a night at a 50% shooting clip all of a sudden.


Roy is not going anywhere, Danny doesn't have any value, Hill is not going anywhere, Paul George is not going anywhere, at this point the Pacers need to realize that without Danny they are not going anywhere, not only that but I don't think we can expect Danny to be 100% healthy ever again(like Dunleavy).

The Pacers only asset is West, he is not part of the future and the Pacers are probably going lose him for nothing, trade him to a team that feels like they need one more piece to compete and try to get one or two young pieces plus picks for the future, at some point the Pacers front office has to do what is best for the franchise.

Here are some teams that could probably trade for West: Houston, Atlanta, SA, OKC, Boston, Denver, GS, maybe more teams.

Goyle
11-12-2012, 01:48 PM
Roy is not going anywhere, Danny doesn't have any value, Hill is not going anywhere, Paul George is not going anywhere, at this point the Pacers need to realize that without Danny they are not going anywhere, not only that but I don't think we can expect Danny to be 100% healthy ever again(like Dunleavy).

The Pacers only asset is West, he is not part of the future and the Pacers are probably going lose him for nothing, trade him to a team that feels like they need one more piece to compete and try to get one or two young pieces plus picks for the future, at some point the Pacers front office has to do what is best for the franchise.

Here are some teams that could probably trade for West: Houston, Atlanta, SA, OKC, Boston, Denver, GS, maybe more teams.

I don't think we're going anywhere this season now that Granger's missing most of it, but we can't flat out admit that we're giving up and trade West. I don't see us getting anything of worth in return either, tbh.

CableKC
11-12-2012, 01:49 PM
I'm not sure he'll be able to get that on the open market, but all of these scenarios in which you replace West with a younger PF are still missing something...

We're back to the 2010 Pacers, a nice team without a go-to guy.

Our go-to guy is only costing us $10 mil/ season, and that's quite a bargain for proven go-to guys.

If the money gets that tight, somebody else needs to be the one talking a walk or traded for a bit of cap relief.
He's not as tough and may not be a BAMF....but Paul Milsap is a UFA. I'm pretty sure that the Jazz aren't going to re-sign him given the rest of their young Frontcourt that they have to give minutes to.

We all know that the Pacers ( or at least Bird ) has been interested in him for the longest time. If the Rockets don't go after him ( which IMHO...they will before the trade deadline ), I'd hope that the Pacer go after him if West isn't going to be an option.

xIndyFan
11-12-2012, 01:52 PM
couple of minor details. Lance is under contract for the 13-14 season. FWIW, his contract is non-guaranteed. i believe he is a RFA after that.

If a team has Bird rights on a player, they can go over the salary cap to pay him. Doesn't matter if he is a UFA or not. The Pacers will have 'early Bird' rights to David West. That means they can sign him for 175% of his salary or the max salary. I believe that means the Pacers could pay up to $17.5M for David West. Pretty sure they won't, but they could.




Let's step back and look at the current Financial situation before figuring out how much to pay West.

At the start of the 2013-2014 Offseason.....the Pacers have roughly $49 mil in guaranteed Salary owed to 8 Players ( not including the 2013-2014 1st and 2nd round draft picks ):

Hibbert
Granger
GHill
Mahinmi
Green
PGeorge
Plumlee
Orlando

We have 4 Free Agents:

Tyler - RFA
Lance - RFA ( or UFA? not sure which since he's a 2nd round pick )
Ben - RFA
Pendegraph - UFA

I forget.....even as a UFA.....are the Pacers allowed to go over the Salary Cap to sign West?

I know that as a RFA...the Pacers can go over the SalaryCap to sign their own RFAs...but I don't know if the same applies to UFAs.

BTW....if there is any Player that would likely be traded before the February 2012-2013 Trade deadline....my $$$ is on the older Hansbrough.....not West. Also...IMHO...I think that Granger will likely be moved in the 2013-2014 offseason.

ejwallace
11-12-2012, 01:54 PM
Wouldn't it be smarter for us to sit on West through the All-Star break, and see what contending teams would need a BAMF PF? Then we give Danny's injury time to recover, and can assess our finals run before trading. An injury laden team with deep finals hopes could be willing to give up quite a bit to get that final piece to help push them over the edge....

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 01:54 PM
I'm not sure he'll be able to get that on the open market, but all of these scenarios in which you replace West with a younger PF are still missing something...

We're back to the 2010 Pacers, a nice team without a go-to guy.

Our go-to guy is only costing us $10 mil/ season, and that's quite a bargain for proven go-to guys.

If the money gets that tight, somebody else needs to be the one talking a walk or traded for a bit of cap relief.

A go-to guy that's not part of the future, they need to trade him while he has some value instead of letting him sign with another team, not only that but if they sign him long term I think there is a huge chance that he becomes a burden like Foster,JO,Ford,etc.

By the way we need to realize that this team(without Danny) is not a contender, hopefully the Pacers realize this and start some small rebuilding while keeping Roy,PG and Hill as part of their future core.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 01:58 PM
I also forgot to ad that West could also help to get rid of one or two of the horrible contracts of Ian and Green, whoever wants to trade for him they need to take either one of those contracts.

xIndyFan
11-12-2012, 01:59 PM
. . . BTW....if there is any Player that would likely be traded before the February 2012-2013 Trade deadline....my $$$ is on the older Hansbrough.....not West. Also...IMHO...I think that Granger will likely be moved in the 2013-2014 offseason.

I doubt that Tyler will be traded. Possibly not resigned, but not traded. If he is not resigned, a guy like Ian or Gerald will be signed to replace him. There are lots of guys that fit into the decent backup big slot. Or possibly Miles will be slotted into the backup big spot.

I hope Danny is not traded. the current edition of the Pacers shows Danny's value is more than most of us realize. I cannot believe TPTB are that stupid. The only exception to that is if they can trade 2 for 1 where the guy coming back is a star player.

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 02:03 PM
If the Pacers continue at their current rate and remain a fringe playoff team, then they should definitely trade West for assets.

I had hoped Augustin would do well since it's a contract year and that the Pacers could flip him to a playoff team for a younger pg.

West for Kawhi Leonard? haha

CableKC
11-12-2012, 02:05 PM
Roy is not going anywhere, Danny doesn't have any value, Hill is not going anywhere, Paul George is not going anywhere, at this point the Pacers need to realize that without Danny they are not going anywhere, not only that but I don't think we can expect Danny to be 100% healthy ever again(like Dunleavy).

The Pacers only asset is West, he is not part of the future and the Pacers are probably going lose him for nothing, trade him to a team that feels like they need one more piece to compete and try to get one or two young pieces plus picks for the future, at some point the Pacers front office has to do what is best for the franchise.

Here are some teams that could probably trade for West: Houston, Atlanta, SA, OKC, Boston, Denver, GS, maybe more teams.
Keep in mind that the Pacers aren't going to just take back a prospect and filler just for West given their desire continue their Playoff run. Whatever Team that the Pacers trade West to has to have a Starting Quality PF that can be sent back to fill the hole that West vacates. Add in that the Pacers would have to take back in order to match the $10+ mil that is owed to West....I am hard pressed to find a trade that would work.

Another thing to consider....I see the logic in what you are suggesting....get something for West since there is the chance that West could bolt and we lose him for nothing....but the FO has shown me nothing to indicate that they don't intend to re-sign him or that they do not believe that West is the guy that they want to keep for the long term.

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 02:15 PM
Roy is not going anywhere, Danny doesn't have any value, Hill is not going anywhere, Paul George is not going anywhere, at this point the Pacers need to realize that without Danny they are not going anywhere, not only that but I don't think we can expect Danny to be 100% healthy ever again(like Dunleavy).

The Pacers only asset is West, he is not part of the future and the Pacers are probably going lose him for nothing, trade him to a team that feels like they need one more piece to compete and try to get one or two young pieces plus picks for the future, at some point the Pacers front office has to do what is best for the franchise.

Here are some teams that could probably trade for West: Houston, Atlanta, SA, OKC, Boston, Denver, GS, maybe more teams.

a trade with Houston would be sweet.

Terrance Jones + Royce White or Terrance Jones + Greg Smith (give PG an old college buddy)

OKC would be nice, could try to get PJIII...nah, wouldn't happen. I still like Reggie Jackson dammit.

Denver, would love to get Faried...not gonna happen though.

Golden State - Jarrett Jack (plus extension)

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 02:16 PM
I doubt that Tyler will be traded. Possibly not resigned, but not traded. If he is not resigned, a guy like Ian or Gerald will be signed to replace him. There are lots of guys that fit into the decent backup big slot. Or possibly Miles will be slotted into the backup big spot.

I hope Danny is not traded. the current edition of the Pacers shows Danny's value is more than most of us realize. I cannot believe TPTB are that stupid. The only exception to that is if they can trade 2 for 1 where the guy coming back is a star player.

If the Pacers aren't inclined to resign Tyler, why wouldn't you trade him and try to get something?

MillerTime
11-12-2012, 02:16 PM
Pacers need to trade him, get something of value before losing him for nothing, Im expecting that at some point the Pacers learn their leason, or they can get burn again if they feel like it.
I agree that is the most sensible thing to do, but it'll kill our playoff run (if one exists)

xIndyFan
11-12-2012, 02:32 PM
If the Pacers aren't inclined to resign Tyler, why wouldn't you trade him and try to get something?

They get cap space if they let him sign with someone else. Tyler makes about the same as a guy like Gerald or Ian. The cost of another backup big is about the same as it would cost to resign Tyler. It makes sense to 'try to get something' if that something is cost efficient and is worth more than the freed cap space. Making a trade just to make a trade, for another wing as an example, uses up cap space on a guy that won't play.

My thinking is sometimes cap space is better than making a trade to keep from losing a guy.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 02:37 PM
a trade with Houston would be sweet.

Terrance Jones + Royce White or Terrance Jones + Greg Smith (give PG an old college buddy)

OKC would be nice, could try to get PJIII...nah, wouldn't happen. I still like Reggie Jackson dammit.

Denver, would love to get Faried...not gonna happen though.

Golden State - Jarrett Jack (plus extension)

I like the pieces Houston has, Patterson, Morris, etc, it looks to me like they want to win now and are looking to spend money, send them Ian+West for a package of Patterson+Morris and maybe a pick?

OKC's Lamb+ Perkins for West+Ian?

Denver's Wilson Chandler+pick for West?

There are many scenarios were the Pacers can send West to.

CableKC
11-12-2012, 02:41 PM
I doubt that Tyler will be traded. Possibly not resigned, but not traded. If he is not resigned, a guy like Ian or Gerald will be signed to replace him. There are lots of guys that fit into the decent backup big slot. Or possibly Miles will be slotted into the backup big spot.
Keep in mind that even if he is not re-signed...his contract will have a Caphold that would affect the Pacers 2013-2014 Salary Cap. Especially if the Pacers have little intention to re-sign the him....it would be in their best interest to move his Salary before the 2012-2013 Trading Deadline so that his Caphold cannot impact the Pacers ability to sign Free Agents. My thought is that the Pacers are going to kick the tires to see if they can get a future 2nd round pick and an Expiring Contract for him while clearing his 2013-2014 Salary Caphold from the books.


I hope Danny is not traded. the current edition of the Pacers shows Danny's value is more than most of us realize. I cannot believe TPTB are that stupid. The only exception to that is if they can trade 2 for 1 where the guy coming back is a star player.
Given that Danny will be a UFA in the 2014-2015 season and will likely ask for a very big contract when he becomes a Free Agent...I don't see the Pacers giving him as much as he think he's worth....that's why I can see them moving him anytime between now and the summer of 2013 for an Expiring Contract and a prospect. Add in that PG will likely get a $11-13 mil contract offer as a RFA in 2014-2015 and the Pacers will either re-sign West or find a Starting Quality PF to replace him ( Milsap? :pray: )....unless Granger can be had for a reasonable price...I don't see Granger and PG on the same Team beyond the summer of 2013.

The reality is that the Pacers simply can't afford to have a Starting lineup that eats up the the vast majority of the SalaryCap space by the start of the 2014-2015 Season ( when PG becomes a RFA ). We are stuck with Hibbert and Hill eating up $24 mil in Salary by the 2014-2015 season.....add in that PG will likely get a $10 to 12 mil contract offer.....re-signing Granger AND West to $9 to 12+ mil contract each....would get us over that.

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 02:45 PM
Keep in mind that even if he is not re-signed...his contract will have a Caphold that would affect the Pacers 2013-2014 Salary Cap. Especially if the Pacers have little intention to re-sign the him....it would be in their best interest to move his Salary before the 2012-2013 Trading Deadline so that his Caphold cannot impact the Pacers ability to sign Free Agents. My thought is that the Pacers are going to kick the tires to see if they can get a future 2nd round pick and an Expiring Contract for him while clearing his 2013-2014 Salary Caphold from the books.


If they have no intent on signing him, they simply renounce their Bird Rights and poof the cap hold is gone.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 02:50 PM
Given that Danny will be a UFA in the 2014-2015 season and will likely ask for a very big contract when he becomes a Free Agent...I don't see the Pacers giving him as much as he think he's worth....that's why I can see them moving him anytime between now and the summer of 2013 for an Expiring Contract and a prospect. Add in that PG will likely get a $11-13 mil contract offer as a RFA in 2014-2015 and the Pacers will either re-sign West or find a Starting Quality PF to replace him ( Milsap? )....unless Granger can be had for a reasonable price...I don't see Granger and PG on the same Team beyond the summer of 2013. The Pacers simply can't afford to have a Starting lineup that eats up the the vast majority of the SalaryCap space.

Danny's value is nothing now, next year he could probably get traded as an expirer, the time were Danny could have been traded to a team because they wanted him to play for them has passed(at least with the current contract), only a crazy team would trade for a guy with knee injuries, I know anything is possible but I don't see it.

wintermute
11-12-2012, 03:01 PM
If PG wants $12M a year, you let him walk and laugh at the taker. Love the kid, but he hasn't proven anything yet, and $12M is 'proven' money.

Batum got 4 years/$46m. Expect PG to get similar or maybe even more.

ChicagoJ
11-12-2012, 03:02 PM
A go-to guy that's not part of the future, they need to trade him while he has some value instead of letting him sign with another team, not only that but if they sign him long term I think there is a huge chance that he becomes a burden like Foster,JO,Ford,etc.

By the way we need to realize that this team(without Danny) is not a contender, hopefully the Pacers realize this and start some small rebuilding while keeping Roy,PG and Hill as part of their future core.

So this team without Granger isn't a contender, but you want to give up the only go-to guy (he's only 32, I think he's probably got 2-3 good seasons left. Nobody is saying to give him a four or five year deal), but you still want to keep the "softer" portion of the starting lineup?

You'd be set with your third (Roy), fourth (Hill) and fifth (PG) options, I suppose. That just strikes me as a quick way to get back to being a #8 seed, but with a somewhat tougher PG to play against Rose in the first round.


Hard to imagine how you'd find your go-to guy and second option in that scenario. I'd rather keep the current front-court together, figure out if/when Granger can return to form, and figure out a way to improve our wings overall without costing us West, Hibbert, or Hill.

Trophy
11-12-2012, 03:06 PM
I expect him to be re-signed.

Speed
11-12-2012, 03:14 PM
Amazing how after one summer and 7 games it feels like they have a bunch of bad contracts again. Its too early to tell, but its a shame that West could be gone and he's such a big difference maker, imo.

Be interesting to see how the new CBA starts to impact signings if at all.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 03:15 PM
So this team without Granger isn't a contender, but you want to give up the only go-to guy (he's only 32, I think he's probably got 2-3 good seasons left. Nobody is saying to give him a four or five year deal), but you still want to keep the "softer" portion of the starting lineup?

You'd be set with your third (Roy), fourth (Hill) and fifth (PG) options, I suppose. That just strikes me as a quick way to get back to being a #8 seed, but with a somewhat tougher PG to play against Rose in the first round.


Hard to imagine how you'd find your go-to guy and second option in that scenario. I'd rather keep the current front-court together, figure out if/when Granger can return to form, and figure out a way to improve our wings overall without costing us West, Hibbert, or Hill.

The Pacers look like an out of the playoffs or 7th 8th seat right now with West as their best player, I guess if you want to be the JOB mediocre Pacers for years to come you keep the same people, keeping West is not going to make the Pacers contenders and upgrading the wings without giving up a key player is a dream.

Again West hot start should give the Pacers a nice trade ship, some "want to win now team" should be able to give something nice back in return, keeping West is going to be as beneficiary as keeping Foster and letting him retire as a Pacers, in other words not beneficiary at all.

bballpacen
11-12-2012, 03:16 PM
Question... Do we hold Bird rights to DWest?? We only signed him to a two year deal, and I thought that we had to have him signed for a 3 year deal to get his Bird rights... Any of you CBA experts able verify or deny this?? If we do not hold Bird rights on him, then we have to trade him by the deadline this year, IMO.

wintermute
11-12-2012, 03:22 PM
I hope Danny is not traded. the current edition of the Pacers shows Danny's value is more than most of us realize. I cannot believe TPTB are that stupid. The only exception to that is if they can trade 2 for 1 where the guy coming back is a star player.

Danny's injury I think is giving us a preview of what a possible post-Granger future looks like. I know the team doesn't look good right now, but it's early yet, and if the team finds ways to be competitive without Danny, then he could end up on the trading block next year. All this is speculative at this point of course.

Like CableKC, I'm not sure how Danny fits long term. Ideally, he'd be willing to re-sign for a reduced role (and correspondingly reduced contract) past his current deal, but I'm not sure he's willing to do that.

I'm really not sure about West. On the one hand, he has really been effective for us. On the other hand, he'll be 33 next year - how long can he continue to play at a high level? I think we'd all be happy to re-sign him for less money, and it's quite possible that he won't be as sought after as younger guys like Millsap. But I could see the Pacers letting him walk if the price tag gets too high. I don't think we'll trade him mid-season though.

wintermute
11-12-2012, 03:32 PM
Question... Do we hold Bird rights to DWest?? We only signed him to a two year deal, and I thought that we had to have him signed for a 3 year deal to get his Bird rights... Any of you CBA experts able verify or deny this?? If we do not hold Bird rights on him, then we have to trade him by the deadline this year, IMO.

xIndyFan explained it in the previous page. We have Early Bird rights but not full Bird rights. Early Bird rights is more than enough in West's case though - allows a contract starting at 175% of old contract.



Again West hot start should give the Pacers a nice trade ship, some "want to win now team" should be able to give something nice back in return, keeping West is going to be as beneficiary as keeping Foster and letting him retire as a Pacers, in other words not beneficiary at all.

I'm not sure that West will fetch as much as you seem to think. The teams that can most use him (SA, Boston) have limited assets. OKC, Denver, GS are all at luxury tax level or higher, so trading for West is likely to be a rental for them. Houston and Atlanta both have big FA plans next year, so will probably regard West as a rental as well.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 03:41 PM
xIndyFan explained it in the previous page. We have Early Bird rights but not full Bird rights. Early Bird rights is more than enough in West's case though - allows a contract starting at 175% of old contract.



I'm not sure that West will fetch as much as you seem to think. The teams that can most use him (SA, Boston) have limited assets. OKC, Denver, GS are all at luxury tax level or higher, so trading for West is likely to be a rental for them. Houston and Atlanta both have big FA plans next year, so will probably regard West as a rental as well.

Even as I rental I wouldn't be surprised that a team gives the Pacers some assets, OKC makes sense because they need somebody that can score inside and they also need to move Perkins, Perkins+asset for West could be done I think, now I don't know how that affects the Pacers cap though.

Edit: Oh and they need to make sure to ad Ian or Green on the trade too.

CableKC
11-12-2012, 03:45 PM
If they have no intent on signing him, they simply renounce their Bird Rights and poof the cap hold is gone.
Yes...but I assume that they will kick the tires to see what they can get for him on teh Open market.

xIndyFan
11-12-2012, 04:01 PM
Keep in mind that even if he is not re-signed...his contract will have a Caphold that would affect the Pacers 2013-2014 Salary Cap. Especially if the Pacers have little intention to re-sign the him....it would be in their best interest to move his Salary before the 2012-2013 Trading Deadline so that his Caphold cannot impact the Pacers ability to sign Free Agents. My thought is that the Pacers are going to kick the tires to see if they can get a future 2nd round pick and an Expiring Contract for him while clearing his 2013-2014 Salary Caphold from the books.

Since Tyler is an expiring contract, the value of trading him for one seems negligible. as does the value of a 2nd round pick. Now I agree that a 2nd round pick is better than no 2nd round pick, but only some of the time. Sometimes the cap space and roster space is more valuable than the pick. The cap hold is unimportant. It can be renounced whenever it needs to be. Worrying about it is pointless.


Given that Danny will be a UFA in the 2014-2015 season and will likely ask for a very big contract when he becomes a Free Agent...I don't see the Pacers giving him as much as he think he's worth....that's why I can see them moving him anytime between now and the summer of 2013 for an Expiring Contract and a prospect. Add in that PG will likely get a $11-13 mil contract offer as a RFA in 2014-2015 and the Pacers will either re-sign West or find a Starting Quality PF to replace him ( Milsap? :pray: )....unless Granger can be had for a reasonable price...I don't see Granger and PG on the same Team beyond the summer of 2013.


The reality is that the Pacers simply can't afford to have a Starting lineup that eats up the the vast majority of the SalaryCap space by the start of the 2014-2015 Season ( when PG becomes a RFA ). We are stuck with Hibbert and Hill eating up $24 mil in Salary by the 2014-2015 season.....add in that PG will likely get a $10 to 12 mil contract offer.....re-signing Granger AND West to $9 to 12+ mil contract each....would get us over that.

That is true. Again, it maybe better to let a guy sign elsewhere and use the cap space for something else. I think you are overlooking the value of cap space in your analysis of trading possibilities. Just an example, trading Danny or David for multiple guys that are just guys is not a good trade in spite of getting something for your guy you don't want to resign. Like you said, there are only so many salary slots that can be used. Letting David go to keep Paul is a valid reason. Trading David for a couple of guys and a second doesn't make any more room to resign Paul. For today's NBA GM, sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.

Edit: IMO, trading a healthy Danny borders on insane. Unless you get a guy like Gasol or Josh Smith or Rondo or some other top guy. In other words, the only trade to make is one in which Danny is not the best player being traded. Danny is a really good player and a player that evidently is very important to this team success.

Cousy47
11-12-2012, 04:13 PM
Even as I rental I wouldn't be surprised that a team gives the Pacers some assets, OKC makes sense because they need somebody that can score inside and they also need to move Perkins, Perkins+asset for West could be done I think, now I don't know how that affects the Pacers cap though.

Edit: Oh and they need to make sure to ad Ian or Green on the trade too.
Is there any chance we could do a Granger and Hans/IM or a West and Hans/Green to Atl for Josh Smith? Salaries would be pretty close and might even be able to get 1 year extensions for each team. Smith may or may not stay in Atl., but his ability to play both forward positions and clear space for Roy would make him a very good fit for the Pacers, IMO. I don't think we can keep both DW and DG after this year without spending a lot more money than Simon will be interested in spending when the PG contract comes due. Hans/Granger with a sign and trade for about the same money would fit for Smith if he would agree to sign and trade.

clownskull
11-12-2012, 04:25 PM
If PG wants $12M a year, you let him walk and laugh at the taker. Love the kid, but he hasn't proven anything yet, and $12M is 'proven' money.

yep, i like what he brings with the D and he is a terrific rebounder at his position but i have not seen 12 million a year out of him yet.

ChicagoJ
11-12-2012, 04:26 PM
The Pacers look like an out of the playoffs or 7th 8th seat right now with West as their best player, I guess if you want to be the JOB mediocre Pacers for years to come you keep the same people, keeping West is not going to make the Pacers contenders and upgrading the wings without giving up a key player is a dream.


No, the difference between this team and the O'Brien era team, including the team Vogel got to the playoffs and then fell apart in the fourth quarter of every game against the Bulls is West. Maybe he doesn't make us a top-four contender (hard to blame him, this team was supposed to have Granger). But I think you're undervaluing what David actually does for this team and will continue to do for a couple more seasons. He's not going to play forever, obviously, but he should play here for longer than just the rest of this contract.

Yes, we won't really be a title contender until David is our second option, and Danny (or Roy) is our third option. That's certainly true. But if you give up David, you've really got to get both a first and second option in return. That's a tall order for a team that will be near/ over the cap.

I guess the difference is, right now I see them trying to maximize the team based on what they have or can reasonably get. You'd like to set fire to them so see if something else might be better in a few years. Given this franchise's financial struggles, its hard to blame them for having some patience with the roster they've been investing in. It isn't the fault of any of our active players that Danny is out.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 04:56 PM
No, the difference between this team and the O'Brien era team, including the team Vogel got to the playoffs and then fell apart in the fourth quarter of every game against the Bulls is West.

The difference is West and Hill, either way I don't think the Pacers beat that team.


Maybe he doesn't make us a top-four contender (hard to blame him, this team was supposed to have Granger). But I think you're undervaluing what David actually does for this team and will continue to do for a couple more seasons.

I'm actually valuing him pretty high by suggesting that we can get the packages that I'm suggesting and I'm sorry I don't believe he can play at a high level for couple of more seasons.



Yes, we won't really be a title contender until David is our second option, and Danny (or Roy) is our third option. That's certainly true. But if you give up David, you've really got to get both a first and second option in return. That's a tall order for a team that will be near/ over the cap.

Well that's the point get a player with potential and probably a draft pick instead of nothing, who's to say that West is not going to pull a Peja?


I guess the difference is, right now I see them trying to maximize the team based on what they have or can reasonably get. You'd like to set fire to them so see if something else might be better in a few years. Given this franchise's financial struggles, its hard to blame them for having some patience with the roster they've been investing in. It isn't the fault of any of our active players that Danny is out.

Because of this team financial struggles is what I think that is better to move West, I'll be really stupid to let him go for nothing or worse give him a long term contract so he can become another one of the bad contracts the Pacers signed recently.

BillS
11-12-2012, 05:42 PM
OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him. Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).

It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?

This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
11-12-2012, 05:44 PM
I agree with you on this sort of thing for once. Pacers can't stand pat on this front court. I would move one of Hibbert or West this season. Depending on who can bring higher return. Sucks to say that because I like both of them, but the fact is we're sort of between a rock and a hard place at the moment when it comes to how to move forward. We still need to make moves, and while PG will never be a superstar he is too damn versatile IMO to just toss away unless someone offers you a huge package for him, but I just don't see that happening. So West or Hibbert seems to be the best place to bring in some assets. I know that opinion is not going to be incredibly popular, but I think it's pretty true about the team right now unless Roy starts scoring 15 a night at a 50% shooting clip all of a sudden.

Roy is in a slump. I'm not that worried about it. He will come out of it.

I would find it hard to believe that the P's would trade Roy after signing him to a big contract. But stranger things have happened.

I agree about West. He is going to want big bucks if he keeps up this production. And the Pacers are going to be hard pressed to shell out that kind of money and still keep PG. On the other hand, if the team trades him this offseason, then it severely inhibits their ability to compete in the East. If they let the season ride, then they lose West most likely.

It's a tough situation.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 06:01 PM
OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him.

Well he is expiring so the Pacers can probably loss him for nothing why no try to get something in return?


Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).

Some contenders have good assets seating on the bench(OKC) and some teams are loaded with young players(Houston) and nobody is asking to trade him for a better asset that's not reasonable.


It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?

Nobody is saying that West's 10mil is holding the Pacers back and yes there are combinations of trades that can happen for about 13mil.


This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.

Or you stay with that known quantity for the next 3 years and start the rebuilding process all over again in 3 years when he expires? or that known quantity doesn't live up to his new contract and you are stuck with a long term contract ala JO,Ford,Foster,Dunleavy,etc?

By the way I know the Pacers are going to do the same they did with the guys I mentioned, they either let him walk for nothing or they re-sign him for the next 3 years with the hopes that Danny comes back healthy and everything works the right way.

purdue101
11-12-2012, 06:18 PM
OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him. Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).

It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?

This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.

Agree 100%. A lot of itchy triggers on this board. Why would we trade a player in West who is playing above his pay and is likely willing to resign here? I don't understand why people are so certain we are "going to lose him for nothing." He has given no indication he wants to leave and I find it very likely he resigns for 2-3 years at a decent price. Indy affords him a competitive team, a good organization, and most importantly, we can pay him. West is only 32 years old and has minimal reliance on athletiscm. While not as talented, his game is in the mold of Karl Malone, who played elite ball until he was 40. I guarantee West has 3-4 good years left, which is exactly the timing for which PG, Hill, and Hibbert will be in there prime. If we trade West now for a young asset, it will take 4-5 years for that player to reach their ceiling, at which point Hibbert and Hill are now in their 30's and we go through the entire process again. All championship teams that I can remember have had at least 1 starter in their 30's. West just turned 32, took a year off, and as I said, doesn't rely on athletiscm. I hope we resign him for 2-3 years at 8-10M and call it a day - our frontcourt is set for the next 3 years. Comparing him to JO is ridiculous as JO was injured the years prior to trading him. And we didn't receive "nothing" for JO, we landed cap space and our starting C.

Also, love the calling for Green and Mahinmi to be traded and labeling them "bad contracts". We aren't even two weeks into the season and some of those wanting them gone were those impressed with their preseason. Green has had a few defensive lapses (expected in a new system), but statistically he is exactly where he should be for a bench wing at 20-25mpg (10pts and 5 boards). Guys like Nick Young, Courtney Lee, and Kyle Korver are making more and performing less. I'm fine with Green's performance for 3.5M per year. In fact, he is likely underpaid right now.

Mahinmi has struggled at times, but he hasn't been terrible - 5 pts, 4 boards, 1 block with 47FG% and 81FT%. Those are decent numbers for a defensive big off the bench. Per 48mins he is exactly where Speights was last year and he got paid 4.2M this year, more than Mahinmi. That's just the going rate for defensive bigs, always has been - Kwame Brown was making 7M per year not too long ago. Joel Anthony was paid just under 4.0M per year after averaging 3 pts and 3 boards the year prior. Mahinmi will be fine and serve well as our backup C.

Yes we are losing and in a funk, but people are drastically overreacting here and pointing fingers the wrong direction.

CableKC
11-12-2012, 06:19 PM
Well he is expiring so the Pacers can probably loss him for nothing why no try to get something in return?
Cuz we have no idea if they'll simply let him go or that they actually value him like they valued Foster. If the FO doesn't think that he's part of our future....then I agree with you that we should something for nothing....the problem is that we have no idea what the FO thinks of him.


Some contenders have good assets seating on the bench(OKC) and some teams are loaded with young players(Houston) and nobody is asking to trade him for a better asset that's not reasonable.
Given that the Pacers are still looking to return to the 2nd round of the Playoffs.....if a Starter like West is traded...the FO is going to want someone that can contribute as a Starter. I would be hard pressed to find a trade that netted the Pacers an acceptable Starting quality PF that could contribute JUST as a Starter ( I'm not even talking at the same level as David West but an acceptable Starting PF ) while finding assets to match salaries. Saying that West can be traded to any of the mentioned Teams and then finding a trade that makes sense for both Teams while finding one that makes Salaries match is a lot easier said than done.

I fully expect that there will be some changes to the roster by the 2013-2014 offseason....I just don't see West as being one of the Players traded between now and February 2013 ( this year's trade deadline ). IMHO...West will either be re-signed/extended/whatever just like Foster was ( which means that the Pacers will be overpaying for a Player that is towards the end of his career ) or that he'll simply be let go for nothing.

The same can be said for Granger.

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 06:33 PM
With the way some people on this board would run a team no one would ever be on this team for more than 3 seasons. As soon as a young player started to reach their potential they would be traded for the next guy with potential because the first guy couldn't possible net you more talent in the future, if they were a vet as soon as they were down to the last year of their contract they would be traded because you couldn't possibly re-sign them to a contract they could like up to. I am so glad we have had GMs like Walsh and Bird running the show. They realize winning a championship is about more than just putting the 5 guys with the most talent possible together, and that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

imbtyler
11-12-2012, 06:34 PM
West's recent on-court attitude is showing me that he's not happy with the team he's currently playing for, and won't think twice to leave for a stacked team for a smaller dollar.

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 06:37 PM
West's recent on-court attitude is showing me that he's not happy with the team he's currently playing for, and won't think twice to leave for a stacked team for a smaller dollar.

What attitude are you talking about? The one where he wants to win, or the one where he doesn't give a ****. So far I have only seen one attitude, and it says nothing about him wanting to leave.

90'sNBARocked
11-12-2012, 06:57 PM
Roy is not going anywhere, Danny doesn't have any value, Hill is not going anywhere, Paul George is not going anywhere, at this point the Pacers need to realize that without Danny they are not going anywhere, not only that but I don't think we can expect Danny to be 100% healthy ever again(like Dunleavy).

The Pacers only asset is West, he is not part of the future and the Pacers are probably going lose him for nothing, trade him to a team that feels like they need one more piece to compete and try to get one or two young pieces plus picks for the future, at some point the Pacers front office has to do what is best for the franchise.

Here are some teams that could probably trade for West: Houston, Atlanta, SA, OKC, Boston, Denver, GS, maybe more teams.

I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 07:02 PM
I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value

When he comes back and plays well he will have value, although right at this moment his value is extremely low as he is injured and there will be question marks about his ability to recover and perform well.

CableKC
11-12-2012, 07:10 PM
I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value
To us...yes...he does have value. But in terms of Trade value...not as much. He's simply worth more to us than he is to other Teams.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 07:38 PM
I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value

Tell that to the other 29 teams to see what they are going to tell you, yes a healthy Danny has value, a broken down Danny with knee issues and a salary of 13mil this year and 14 next year? hell no.

By the way I'm starting to feel like I'm repeating myself from 3 years ago when people told me that all Dunleavy needed was some months off to get back to his old self, it's nice to have some hope but the reality is that Danny's odds of been 100% healthy once again are pretty low.

The hope of Danny riding the white horse to take the Pacers to the promise land are also pretty low.

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 07:49 PM
Tell that to the other 29 teams to see what they are going to tell you, yes a healthy Danny has value, a broken down Danny with knee issues and a salary of 13mil this year and 14 next year? hell no.

By the way I'm starting to feel like I'm repeating myself from 3 years ago when people told me that all Dunleavy needed was some months off to get back to his old self, it's nice to have some hope but the reality is that Danny's odds of been 100% healthy once again are pretty low.

The hope of Danny riding the white horse to take the Pacers to the promise land are also pretty low.

Unless you think 19ppg was his normal self he did. He went back to averaging around 11ppg like he did before he was with the Pacers. So I do not really see your point.

Ace E.Anderson
11-12-2012, 07:58 PM
I like the pieces Houston has, Patterson, Morris, etc, it looks to me like they want to win now and are looking to spend money, send them Ian+West for a package of Patterson+Morris and maybe a pick?

OKC's Lamb+ Perkins for West+Ian?

Denver's Wilson Chandler+pick for West?

There are many scenarios were the Pacers can send West to.

Why would we trade for Perkins when he's more overpaid than Geen nd Mahinmi combined?

Not to mention, he has THE SAME stats as Mahinmi while getting paid 7 mil this yr on a contract that goes up over the next 3.

Wilson Chandler has played WORSE than Green has this far.

It seems like Green is starting to come out of his funk. 10-12ppg for 3.5 isn't a bad contract at all. (Chandler is avg 6ppg for 5.9, on a contract that escalates.)

I agree we should at least look to see what we could get for West. But I'm not feeling taking on bloated contracts (Perkins, Chandler) for a minimal bump in production/talent.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 08:06 PM
Unless you think 19ppg was his normal self he did. He went back to averaging around 11ppg like he did before he was with the Pacers. So I do not really see your point.

Dunleavy lost more than an step after he came back that's my point, he went from good player to bench player, in Danny's case the report is that his pain is never going to go away plus he has a chronic knee issue since college, so expecting that he comes back to his old self is wishful thinking in my opinion.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 08:08 PM
Why would we trade for Perkins when he's more overpaid than Geen nd Mahinmi combined?

Not to mention, he has THE SAME stats as Mahinmi while getting paid 7 mil this yr on a contract that goes up over the next 3.

Wilson Chandler has played WORSE than Green has this far.

It seems like Green is starting to come out of his funk. 10-12ppg for 3.5 isn't a bad contract at all. (Chandler is avg 6pph for 5.9, on a contract that escalates.)

I agree we should at least look to see what we could get for West. But I'm not feeling taking on bloated contracts (Perlins, Chandler) for a minimal bump in production/talent.

Those were just examples.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 08:56 PM
With the way some people on this board would run a team no one would ever be on this team for more than 3 seasons. As soon as a young player started to reach their potential they would be traded for the next guy with potential because the first guy couldn't possible net you more talent in the future, if they were a vet as soon as they were down to the last year of their contract they would be traded because you couldn't possibly re-sign them to a contract they could like up to. I am so glad we have had GMs like Walsh and Bird running the show. They realize winning a championship is about more than just putting the 5 guys with the most talent possible together and that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

How many championships they have again? exactly.....

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 09:02 PM
How many championships they have again? exactly.....

3 - 1981, 84, and 86.

BlueNGold
11-12-2012, 10:32 PM
West's recent on-court attitude is showing me that he's not happy with the team he's currently playing for, and won't think twice to leave for a stacked team for a smaller dollar.

I think West will go for the highest dollar. He came to Indy on a short contract to rehab his knee and bounce back out for bigger money once he was healthy. I hope we can hang onto him, but it will be costly.

Derek2k3
11-12-2012, 11:27 PM
I think West will go for the highest dollar. He came to Indy on a short contract to rehab his knee and bounce back out for bigger money once he was healthy. I hope we can hang onto him, but it will be costly.

Source?

Or, just making a statement based on gut? I don't mean to be harsh, but West hasn't shown any indication of what you're stating. However, on the internet people are welcome to make statements and puff out their chest without any real facts.

Naptown_Seth
11-13-2012, 12:40 AM
He's making $10 million per Season now....he's going to demand more (and most likely it)
He's going to get 10 because he's worth 10 (at least). If you can get a "we gave you trust" deal at 3 for 32 that would be nice, and money better spent than "you've got to" Hibbert money.

You can pay Roy, Hill, Paul, West and Danny about the same as Miami is paying the big 3 plus 2 other starters. The big 3 will make 56m next year. Roy, Hill and Danny will be making 36 which leaves you 10m each to give to Paul and West to have 5 starters vs the Miami 3. It's very reasonable.

Danny's deal ends next year and Paul's rookie deal technically goes through next season, so you might be seeing a reduction in Danny's money (depending on this year and next) that offsets some of that Paul increase.

Bottom line - just the savings on the Pacers big 3 vs Miami's big 3, even if you make a 3rd Pacer a 14m guy, still saves you enough in total (4m x 3 guys) to pay West as a bonus to offset the talent difference.


The whole point in money is to be able to pay guys that produce. Right now West is the best non-rookie investment the Pacers have going. The 28m in Hibbert/Danny is what hurts them. So you want to re-up West as much as you possibly can. 14-15m, probably outside their limit unless they were to deal Danny, but 10-11 for 3 more years is achievable.

Naptown_Seth
11-13-2012, 12:44 AM
Why would we trade for Perkins when he's more overpaid than Geen nd Mahinmi combined?

Not to mention, he has THE SAME stats as Mahinmi while getting paid 7 mil this yr on a contract that goes up over the next 3.

Wilson Chandler has played WORSE than Green has this far.

It seems like Green is starting to come out of his funk. 10-12ppg for 3.5 isn't a bad contract at all. (Chandler is avg 6ppg for 5.9, on a contract that escalates.)

I agree we should at least look to see what we could get for West. But I'm not feeling taking on bloated contracts (Perkins, Chandler) for a minimal bump in production/talent.

I agree. Mahinmi is developing his on-court confidence. His talent has already shown through in footwork, quickness, size and strength. Green is the same way. Both look improved with each passing game.

You lose DJ and Tyler which is 6m from this year and replace them with just one guy at that rate. You can have new PG, Green, Mahinmi and maybe Plumlee a little plus filler and the starting 5 for about the same price as this year. So if this team starts to settle in together there's no good reason to break it up.

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 12:46 AM
"Pacers big 3"? is this real life? :lol:

Cocaine is a hell of a drug :lmao:

wintermute
11-13-2012, 01:53 AM
You can pay Roy, Hill, Paul, West and Danny about the same as Miami is paying the big 3 plus 2 other starters. The big 3 will make 56m next year. Roy, Hill and Danny will be making 36 which leaves you 10m each to give to Paul and West to have 5 starters vs the Miami 3. It's very reasonable.


The problem though is that Miami is deep in the tax, so it's not a fair comparison. Miami is at $84m this year whereas the Pacers are realistically looking at $70m+ as a hard cap.



The whole point in money is to be able to pay guys that produce. Right now West is the best non-rookie investment the Pacers have going. The 28m in Hibbert/Danny is what hurts them. So you want to re-up West as much as you possibly can. 14-15m, probably outside their limit unless they were to deal Danny, but 10-11 for 3 more years is achievable.

I agree with this though, if it comes down to a choice between West and Granger for who gets the $10m+ contract, I'd pick West too.

Peck
11-13-2012, 01:59 AM
Dunleavy lost more than an step after he came back that's my point, he went from good player to bench player, in Danny's case the report is that his pain is never going to go away plus he has a chronic knee issue since college, so expecting that he comes back to his old self is wishful thinking in my opinion.

BillS heart just fluttered like a hummingbird at your admission that you thought that Mike Dunleavy was a good player.

vnzla81
11-13-2012, 02:04 AM
BillS heart just fluttered like a hummingbird at your admission that you thought that Mike Dunleavy was a good player.

He was at one time before he got hurt I was a fan of his before the injury but after that he was crap, I even voted for the guy like crazy for him to be an all star :laugh:

Bball
11-13-2012, 03:42 AM
2 words- Donnie, Walsh

Unless West demands a trade (or declares he doesn't want to be here at all) he just needs to tell Donnie how much he'd like the check made out for.

rexnom
11-13-2012, 04:58 AM
Trading Danny is ridiculous because he has more value for our team than others. We aren't getting a fair deal there. Trading West is not ridiculous because he is in a shorter contract, peaking, is older, and would have just as much value for other teams as ours. The West-Granger window is small. However, the Hil-Hibbert-George window is large and getting some assets from a West deal would help moving us in that direction. If the Granger injury lasts more than 3 months or we struggle without him, we might have to consider this season a lost cause. Then, we have to start thinking about the future more carefully. West is doing anything wrong but he might b our only chance to improve this team moving forward via trade. And, since we just lost this year of the Granger-Weat window ( hypothetically), we are in a different position than we were during the offseason.