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View Full Version : Panicking is soooo 3 games ago.



Diamond Dave
11-10-2012, 12:58 AM
**Fair warning up front here, this will not be kind. Nor will this be, in some eyes, fair.**

As has been pointed out by countless posters here "its only been 5 games." Of course it is now 6. Wise words for sure, especially if the team was playing inconsistently. The largest problems with this logic is that the team has played very consistently in its first 6 games. Showing the same faults and the same few positives in each contest. It will be easier to list the few positives first.

-George Hill: While not a natural point guard he has the "it", the "fire", what the French may call a certain "je ne sais quoi." And he has it in spades. If only it was a transferable commodity, perhaps we'd be okay. Hill can create his own shot against all but outstanding NBA defenders. Hill is also capable of guarding all but the elite level NBA scorers, oh and apparently Jameer Nelson.


-David West: He is load on the block. A true special talent down low that the Pacers haven't seen since a young Jermaine O'Neal. And as Peck and I were debating tonight, we entertained the idea that he may be better as a low post scorer. His rebounding has improved this year despite his limited athleticism. Now his individual and team defense leaves a lot to be desired, and he will never scare a slasher from attacking the basket.


-Tyler Hansbrough: Yes he is benefitting here from rock bottom expectations. However it is evident that his defense has grown I suspect from continually attempting to guard DWest in practice. He is attempting to go left and use his left hand with intermittent success. Apparently can't find his jumpshot, but as usual he is playing with aggression and fire. This simple attribute has placed him higher in my eyes than most of the team.

-Lance Stephenson: A wise poster once said that Lance's best chance to succeed would be to be a good player on a bad team. Lance has found his bad team. Regardless, at least he can create for himself and others. Tyler is benefitting from this.


And that is it.............. as unfortunate as that is for all of us who have waited so long to see a contender again.


Now to the negatives.


Frank Vogel: I like the man. I suspect in real life he is special person. He is positive, pleasant, and appears to always be in good spirits. Up until this season I had faith in him as a coach, which is surprising considering his two mentors of JOB and Patino. However perhaps the single greatest flaw so far that this team has is that it is very hard to discern whether we actually run plays or not. From what I've gathered the offense is run with 3 people. The point guard, the power forward, and the center. The two wings appear to simply be decoys meant to stretch the floor. Play after play they seem to be stuck in the quicksand that apparently seem to encompass the baseline three line. We seem to do nothing but iso, post iso, or pick n pop that features the motherf!!king faux pick. I swear each time I see one of our players set a screen only to turn and step away just before the moment of contact I want to commit mass genocide. All of this has to be layed at Frank's feet. How is it possible that our team was more disciplined and diverse when we didn't have a training camp?

Paul George: I'm saying it, I doubt I'm the only one thinking it, but I fear no flame that it will bring me. Trade him. Thats right. Trade him while his value is still sky high. Trade him before the rest of the league knows what only those of us who waste our Friday nights watching this team lose to the Twolves know. Remember everything I typed about what George Hill has? This guy does not have it. He is a fine player, even a very good player. On a team that doesn't need him to be a stone cold killer/scorer he'd be an outstanding asset. In an ideal world it would've been a perfect swap of PG and Harden. PG would be excellent along Durant and Westbrook. Long, athletic, a 3rd scoring option. The problem is we don't need that. We need a go to guy. We need someone to get mad about losing to the Twolves and takeover the next game. That is not him. He is too laid back, too "cool for school." Get mad godd!!mit get mad! Right now the league is still convinced he is a budding star. I am no longer convinced of this.

Roy Hibbert: I was an early critic of Roy, when he first came into the league. I NEVER thought he'd be as good as he was last year. This year he is playing exactly how I thought his career would pan out when I first saw him. If he didn't have a max contract, I wouldn't even be upset with him. However he has shown us he is capable of more, he earned that contract. And if NBA players had regular jobs like the rest of us, he'd deserve the pay cut and demotion that we'd all get. Now in Roy's defense teams are collapsing on him. Immediately sending doubles and triples his way, and we have not one single wing to keep them honest by having the common courtesy to hit a jump shot. Still his rebounding is embarrassing.

The New Guys: What can be said about DJ Augustine that hasn't been said about Afganistan? Obviously he passes slightly better than Collison, but does EVERYTHING else much much worse. Gerald Green belongs on bad teams. No expectations, no pressure, no requirement to play intelligent winning basketball. And WTF happened to Mahinmi? Wow this guy has to be one of the most overpaid players in the league right now. What is he giving you that Lou didn't? Or how about Greg Stiemsa who is getting half the money. Stone hands and foul prone, yep we've got a real winner here. I about forgot to say something about Sam Young, but then again I about forgot he even played on the team.

This team is in a total tailspin. It hurts so much worse having come into a season expecting success then to see this debacle. JOB's years were awful, but each season in the beginning I totally expected our team to look like the Washington Generals. Yes, Danny Granger is gone. Yes, he is a good player. But our problems go soooo much deeper than this. Minnesota is excelling without its 2 best players. We are playing like a high school team that once had LeBron James, but lost him to an ACL injury. Imagine the difference it that imaginary team's success. Danny is good, but he is not THAT good. If Danny was here we would still have some significant issues. I hope somehow tomorrow night the team comes out and says, "Gotcha fans! We really had you going didn't we? Okay, we'll play for real now." But I doubt it.

rock747
11-10-2012, 01:02 AM
**Fair warning up front here, this will not be kind. Nor will this be, in some eyes, fair.**

As has been pointed out by countless posters here "its only been 5 games." Of course it is now 6. Wise words for sure, especially if the team was playing inconsistently. The largest problems with this logic is that the team has played very consistently in its first 6 games. Showing the same faults and the same few positives in each contest. It will be easier to list the few positives first.

-George Hill: While not a natural point guard he has the "it", the "fire", what the French may call a certain "je ne sais quoi." And he has it in spades. If only it was a transferable commodity, perhaps we'd be okay. Hill can create his own shot against all but outstanding NBA defenders. Hill is also capable of guarding all but the elite level NBA scorers, oh and apparently Jameer Nelson.


-David West: He is load on the block. A true special talent down low that the Pacers haven't seen since a young Jermaine O'Neal. And as Peck and I were debating tonight, we entertained the idea that he may be better as a low post scorer. His rebounding has improved this year despite his limited athleticism. Now his individual and team defense leaves a lot to be desired, and he will never scare a slasher from attacking the basket.


-Tyler Hansbrough: Yes he is benefitting here from rock bottom expectations. However it is evident that his defense has grown I suspect from continually attempting to guard DWest in practice. He is attempting to go left and use his left hand with intermittent success. Apparently can't find his jumpshot, but as usual he is playing with aggression and fire. This simple attribute has placed him higher in my eyes than most of the team.


And that is it.............. as unfortunate as that is for all of us who have waited so long to see a contender again.


Now to the negatives.


Frank Vogel: I like the man. I suspect in real life he is special person. He is positive, pleasant, and appears to always be in good spirits. Up until this season I had faith in him as a coach, which is surprising considering his two mentors of JOB and Patino. However perhaps the single greatest flaw so far that this team has is that it is very hard to discern whether we actually run plays or not. From what I've gathered the offense is run with 3 people. The point guard, the power forward, and the center. The two wings appear to simply be decoys meant to stretch the floor. Play after play they seem to be stuck in the quicksand that apparently seem to encompass the baseline three line. We seem to do nothing but iso, post iso, or pick n pop that features the motherf!!king faux pick. I swear each time I see one of our players set a screen only to turn and step away just before the moment of contact I want to commit mass genocide. All of this has to be layed at Frank's feet. How is it possible that our team was more disciplined and diverse when we didn't have a training camp?

Paul George: I'm saying it, I doubt I'm the only one thinking it, but I fear no flame that it will bring me. Trade him. Thats right. Trade him while his value is still sky high. Trade him before the rest of the league knows what only those of us who waste our Friday nights watching this team lose to the Twolves know. Remember everything I typed about what George Hill has? This guy does not have it. He is a fine player, even a very good player. On a team that doesn't need him to be a stone cold killer/scorer he'd be an outstanding asset. In an ideal world it would've been a perfect swap of PG and Harden. PG would be excellent along Durant and Westbrook. Long, athletic, a 3rd scoring option. The problem is we don't need that. We need a go to guy. We need someone to get mad about losing to the Twolves and takeover the next game. That is not him. He is too laid back, too "cool for school." Get mad godd!!mit get mad! Right now the league is still convinced he is a budding star. I am no longer convinced of this.

Roy Hibbert: I was an early critic of Roy, when he first came into the league. I NEVER thought he'd be as good as he was last year. This year he is playing exactly how I thought his career would pan out when I first saw him. If he didn't have a max contract, I wouldn't even be upset with him. However he has shown us he is capable of more, he earned that contract. And if NBA players had regular jobs like the rest of us, he'd deserve the pay cut and demotion that we'd all get. Now in Roy's defense teams are collapsing on him. Immediately sending doubles and triples his way, and we have not one single wing to keep them honest by having the common courtesy to hit a jump shot. Still his rebounding is embarrassing.

The New Guys: What can be said about DJ Augustine that hasn't been said about Afganistan? Obviously he passes slightly better than Collison, but does EVERYTHING else much much worse. Gerald Green belongs on bad teams. No expectations, no pressure, no requirement to play intelligent winning basketball. And WTF happened to Mahinmi? Wow this guy has to be one of the most overpaid players in the league right now. What is he giving you that Lou didn't? Or how about Greg Stiemsa who is getting half the money. Stone hands and foul prone, yep we've got a real winner here. I about forgot to say something about Sam Young, but then again I about forgot he even played on the team.

This team is in a total tailspin. It hurts so much worse having come into a season expecting success then to see this debacle. JOB's years were awful, but each season in the beginning I totally expected our team to look like the Washington Generals. Yes, Danny Granger is gone. Yes, he is a good player. But our problems go soooo much deeper than this. Minnesota is excelling without its 2 best players. We are playing like a high school team that once had LeBron James, but lost him to an ACL injury. Imagine the difference it that imaginary team's success. Danny is good, but he is not THAT good. If Danny was here we would still have some significant issues. I hope somehow tomorrow night the team comes out and says, "Gotcha fans! We really had you going didn't we? Okay, we'll play for real now." But I doubt it.

Pretty fair summary.

presto123
11-10-2012, 01:03 AM
**Fair warning up front here, this will not be kind. Nor will this be, in some eyes, fair.**

As has been pointed out by countless posters here "its only been 5 games." Of course it is now 6. Wise words for sure, especially if the team was playing inconsistently. The largest problems with this logic is that the team has played very consistently in its first 6 games. Showing the same faults and the same few positives in each contest. It will be easier to list the few positives first.

-George Hill: While not a natural point guard he has the "it", the "fire", what the French may call a certain "je ne sais quoi." And he has it in spades. If only it was a transferable commodity, perhaps we'd be okay. Hill can create his own shot against all but outstanding NBA defenders. Hill is also capable of guarding all but the elite level NBA scorers, oh and apparently Jameer Nelson.


-David West: He is load on the block. A true special talent down low that the Pacers haven't seen since a young Jermaine O'Neal. And as Peck and I were debating tonight, we entertained the idea that he may be better as a low post scorer. His rebounding has improved this year despite his limited athleticism. Now his individual and team defense leaves a lot to be desired, and he will never scare a slasher from attacking the basket.


-Tyler Hansbrough: Yes he is benefitting here from rock bottom expectations. However it is evident that his defense has grown I suspect from continually attempting to guard DWest in practice. He is attempting to go left and use his left hand with intermittent success. Apparently can't find his jumpshot, but as usual he is playing with aggression and fire. This simple attribute has placed him higher in my eyes than most of the team.


And that is it.............. as unfortunate as that is for all of us who have waited so long to see a contender again.


Now to the negatives.


Frank Vogel: I like the man. I suspect in real life he is special person. He is positive, pleasant, and appears to always be in good spirits. Up until this season I had faith in him as a coach, which is surprising considering his two mentors of JOB and Patino. However perhaps the single greatest flaw so far that this team has is that it is very hard to discern whether we actually run plays or not. From what I've gathered the offense is run with 3 people. The point guard, the power forward, and the center. The two wings appear to simply be decoys meant to stretch the floor. Play after play they seem to be stuck in the quicksand that apparently seem to encompass the baseline three line. We seem to do nothing but iso, post iso, or pick n pop that features the motherf!!king faux pick. I swear each time I see one of our players set a screen only to turn and step away just before the moment of contact I want to commit mass genocide. All of this has to be layed at Frank's feet. How is it possible that our team was more disciplined and diverse when we didn't have a training camp?

Paul George: I'm saying it, I doubt I'm the only one thinking it, but I fear no flame that it will bring me. Trade him. Thats right. Trade him while his value is still sky high. Trade him before the rest of the league knows what only those of us who waste our Friday nights watching this team lose to the Twolves know. Remember everything I typed about what George Hill has? This guy does not have it. He is a fine player, even a very good player. On a team that doesn't need him to be a stone cold killer/scorer he'd be an outstanding asset. In an ideal world it would've been a perfect swap of PG and Harden. PG would be excellent along Durant and Westbrook. Long, athletic, a 3rd scoring option. The problem is we don't need that. We need a go to guy. We need someone to get mad about losing to the Twolves and takeover the next game. That is not him. He is too laid back, too "cool for school." Get mad godd!!mit get mad! Right now the league is still convinced he is a budding star. I am no longer convinced of this.

Roy Hibbert: I was an early critic of Roy, when he first came into the league. I NEVER thought he'd be as good as he was last year. This year he is playing exactly how I thought his career would pan out when I first saw him. If he didn't have a max contract, I wouldn't even be upset with him. However he has shown us he is capable of more, he earned that contract. And if NBA players had regular jobs like the rest of us, he'd deserve the pay cut and demotion that we'd all get. Now in Roy's defense teams are collapsing on him. Immediately sending doubles and triples his way, and we have not one single wing to keep them honest by having the common courtesy to hit a jump shot. Still his rebounding is embarrassing.

The New Guys: What can be said about DJ Augustine that hasn't been said about Afganistan? Obviously he passes slightly better than Collison, but does EVERYTHING else much much worse. Gerald Green belongs on bad teams. No expectations, no pressure, no requirement to play intelligent winning basketball. And WTF happened to Mahinmi? Wow this guy has to be one of the most overpaid players in the league right now. What is he giving you that Lou didn't? Or how about Greg Stiemsa who is getting half the money. Stone hands and foul prone, yep we've got a real winner here. I about forgot to say something about Sam Young, but then again I about forgot he even played on the team.

This team is in a total tailspin. It hurts so much worse having come into a season expecting success then to see this debacle. JOB's years were awful, but each season in the beginning I totally expected our team to look like the Washington Generals. Yes, Danny Granger is gone. Yes, he is a good player. But our problems go soooo much deeper than this. Minnesota is excelling without its 2 best players. We are playing like a high school team that once had LeBron James, but lost him to an ACL injury. Imagine the difference it that imaginary team's success. Danny is good, but he is not THAT good. If Danny was here we would still have some significant issues. I hope somehow tomorrow night the team comes out and says, "Gotcha fans! We really had you going didn't we? Okay, we'll play for real now." But I doubt it.


I agree with everything you just posted. It's like you read my mind.

TheDavisBrothers
11-10-2012, 01:16 AM
I can't say I agree with everything, I don't think I'm as down as you and I don't think you should ever panic, as your title suggests, but I definitely understand the sentiment...

Hypnotiq
11-10-2012, 01:19 AM
agree with op especially the part regarding Paul George.

dal9
11-10-2012, 01:19 AM
"mass genocide" is redundant.

Diamond Dave
11-10-2012, 01:32 AM
"mass genocide" is redundant.

Not if it includes multiple races and cultures.

vnzla81
11-10-2012, 01:33 AM
I keep thinking that Paul is not playing that bad, again how many guards are averaging 14 and 10? not only that but he plays lock down D, to me the issue is not that Paul George doesn't average 20ppg to me the issue is that the Pacers front office did a horrible job this off season in getting the right players.

They knew they needed a player that can create and score in bunches, they missed on Crawford and missed on Mayo just because they didn't want to pay the price and instead got a bunch of scrubs.

Diamond Dave
11-10-2012, 01:36 AM
I keep thinking that Paul is not playing that bad, again how many guards are averaging 14 and 10? not only that but he plays lock down D, to me the issue is not that Paul George doesn't average 20ppg to me the issue is that the Pacers front office did a horrible job this off season in getting the right players.

They knew they needed a player that can create and score in bunches, they missed on Crawford and missed on Mayo just because they didn't want to pay the price and instead got a bunch of scrubs.

Yes, Paul is playing fine for the type of player he is. But like you say, we need a 20 ppg scorer. I believe the Pacers thought he would be, clearly that is not the case.

vnzla81
11-10-2012, 01:44 AM
Yes, Paul is playing fine for the type of player he is. But like you say, we need a 20 ppg scorer. I believe the Pacers thought he would be, clearly that is not the case.

I think the Pacers thought Green was enough to be the scoring machine they needed, it looks to me like they went "who needs Mayo or Crawford if we can get Green for half the price"?

rock747
11-10-2012, 01:45 AM
I think the Pacers thought Green was enough to be the scoring machine they needed, it looks to me like they went "meh who needs Mayo or Crawford if we can get Green for half the price"?

They kinda took a risk that last year with the nets was indicative that he was ready to breakout. They tried to get a steal for cheap and they got burned.

Kstat
11-10-2012, 01:48 AM
They kinda took a risk that last year with the nets was indicative that he was ready to breakout. They tried to get a steal for cheap and they got burned.

This.

I don't think for a second they thought green would be better than Crawford or mayo. They simply didn't want to choke down another big contract after extending hibbert and hill so they went shopping in the bargain bin for a player with potential to get better.

ReggiesUncle
11-10-2012, 01:50 AM
tomorrow night will tell the story for me

while i agree with what the OP said I still have a glimmer of hope and it really falls on how they play at home against the Wizards minus Wall

They should have tons of energy playing in just the 2nd home game and should not trail once in the game and win by at least 10


if its a close game W or L this season is pretty much gonna suck

Peck
11-10-2012, 02:06 AM
Have you noticed how often we have played from behind this season? Other than the 3rd quarter of the Atlanta game have we ever really had a commanding lead at all this season?

We not only lost to the Wolves we struggled against the Wolves while they are missing Love, Rubio & Barea. In other words their third string point guard just led them to victory vs. the Pacers.

While I share everyone's opinion of Green I do think maybe we might want to give management a small break here because he has yet to be able to play the role that they signed him for. Yes he is coming off of the bench now but the role was for him to come in and replace either Danny or Paul and keep the momentum going, not come in and try and make it happen.

Yes you can fault the team for signing him and not looking for something else but to be fair he was just supposed to be a backup.

I know I am being totally unfair to him but I can't tell you how disappointed I am in Paul George. I not only fault him for his own lack of scoring but I think the fact that he didn't turn out to be a dynamic scorer frankly is hurting Roy Hibbert.

From game one the plan of other teams was to 2-3 zone Roy & double him quickly & not let him get comfortable. Well it not only has worked but it is now to the point where Roy is back to being the scared of his shadow Roy. That part is on him btw, not Paul’s fault that Roy is obviously not a mental warrior.

But I do fault Paul for not taking the pressure off of him.

This entire season wouldn't hurt so bad if we didn't have any expectations. But I have honestly gone from thinking that we were contenders to at least get to the E.C. finals to now wondering if we can even make the playoffs.

I mean we have not faced very hard competition yet other than the Spurs & Hawks & while the wolves have a good record they really aren't that good. So far we have shown we barely can compete with the lower levels and the one elite team we played beat us like a rented mule.

It's just a very sad turn of events.

Do I think things can turn around? Yes

Do I think they will? If I'm honest I say maybe.

wintermute
11-10-2012, 02:08 AM
They kinda took a risk that last year with the nets was indicative that he was ready to breakout. They tried to get a steal for cheap and they got burned.

Yup. And doubly so with Mahinmi.

In fairness, both players are being asked to do a lot right now, much more than in their old roles. Once expectations are dialed back, I think they can be productive again. Trouble is, we don't have anyone else capable of filling those roles...


I keep thinking that Paul is not playing that bad, again how many guards are averaging 14 and 10? not only that but he plays lock down D, to me the issue is not that Paul George doesn't average 20ppg to me the issue is that the Pacers front office did a horrible job this off season in getting the right players.


Paul G is indeed rebounding like a machine, and his defense is still excellent, but that's about it for positives in his season so far. His 13.8 PPG is obtained on 13.4 shots, he's not getting to the line, and he's turning over the ball at an epic rate.

Part of the problem I guess is the expectation that he can emerge as a scoring star, like Danny. Seems like he's a lot more like Iguodala, who's good at everything EXCEPT scoring. So yeah maybe it's a little unfair to criticize George when he's playing a role he's unsuited for.

On whether Pacers should have gotten another scorer - as far as we all knew, Granger was all right back in the summer. So I can understand why the Pacers didn't think getting another pure scorer was a priority.

Peck
11-10-2012, 02:16 AM
I just did a side by side comparison on NBA.com of Gordon Hayward & Paul George. I wish I wouldn't have done that. :puke:

ReggiesUncle
11-10-2012, 02:28 AM
I just did a side by side comparison on NBA.com of Gordon Hayward & Paul George. I wish I wouldn't have done that. :puke:

haha whoops

vnzla81
11-10-2012, 02:29 AM
I just did a side by side comparison on NBA.com of Gordon Hayward & Paul George. I wish I wouldn't have done that. :puke:

Can you post it?

aamcguy
11-10-2012, 02:35 AM
I just did a side by side comparison on NBA.com of Gordon Hayward & Paul George. I wish I wouldn't have done that. :puke:

Why not? Paul is better at everything but FG%.

Eleazar
11-10-2012, 02:50 AM
If Paul was shooting it at the same percentage as last season he would be averaging just under 17ppg.

Kstat
11-10-2012, 03:08 AM
He isn't taking the same shots as he did last season. Without granger defenses are actually paying serious attention to him now.

Peck
11-10-2012, 03:09 AM
Why not? Paul is better at everything but FG%.

Expectations.

I expected nothing from Hayward in the NBA & by this time I thought Paul would be ready to ascend. They are avg. the exact same amount of points while Hayward plays about 8 less min. a game.

vnzla81
11-10-2012, 03:27 AM
Expectations.

I expected nothing from Hayward in the NBA & by this time I thought Paul would be ready to ascend. They are avg. the exact same amount of points while Hayward plays about 8 less min. a game.

Yeah but he is averaging way more rebounds and is a lock down defender, I'm starting to remember the time I told many of you to lower your expectations on Paul George because some people were going to do the same they did to Rush to PG, I guess this is already happening.

imbtyler
11-10-2012, 03:34 AM
Guys, I'm sorry. We're 9-0 when my dog Sammie wears her Granger jersey. I guess I've neglected to suit her up the last few games. Tomorrow will be different, I promise. She'll be jersey'd up, and I'll be in the Fieldhouse. Two +'s in our direction.

:gopacers:


PS: panicking is no fun.

Foul on Smits
11-10-2012, 03:48 AM
Paul George is 22 years old. Give it time. He'll get it.

MvPlumlee
11-10-2012, 04:27 AM
I think the Pacers thought Green was enough to be the scoring machine they needed, it looks to me like they went "who needs Mayo or Crawford if we can get Green for half the price"?
Who wants Mayo or Crawford when players like Gordon, Evans, Ellis can be had very soon? We still need an upgrade in the starters unit to be really good IMO

We tried to get Mayo and Crawford, but they decided their future wasn't with the Pacers.
I would be surprised if our FO didn't want to spend what Dallas is spending on OJ and Crawford went playing for the Trailblazers for exactly the salary the Pacers were offering him.
Besides, he was Crawful last year, no way he was worth what the Clippers are paying him right now. They gambled as much as we did.
It looks like it will be worth it, but first I have to see how much his bad defense and selfish play will hurt them in the playoffs.

xtacy
11-10-2012, 06:47 AM
Paul George is 22 years old. Give it time. He'll get it.

the problem with him is he lacks mental toughness to become the player he's expected to be. i don't think it has anything to do with age.

King Tuts Tomb
11-10-2012, 08:11 AM
the problem with him is he lacks mental toughness to become the player he's expected to be. i don't think it has anything to with age.

I remember not too long ago the same thing was said about LeBron James, quite often on this board. I don't have any illusions that George is anywhere near LeBron's level as a basketball player, but he does have a lot of the same team flow, good shot instincts that LeBron was slammed for his entire career.

D-BONE
11-10-2012, 08:18 AM
The problem with George is he's just not cut out to be a first or second option scorer. Don't believe it in his basketball DNA. Rebounding and Defending are, obviously.

Like the OP, I'd love to see more passion/intensity from him on the court. But, a player like Derrick McKey was very effective with a similar smooth, laid back demeanor. The difference is the role fit McKey. George is being thrust into an expectation of major scoring. For better or worse, either he or Roy are going to have to provide more points to complement West & Hill in the absence of DG.

What's asinine at this point is not shifting PG down to SF and either starting Lance at SG or running Agustin and Hill together.

Agree about the faulty strategy for acquiring the new offseason guys. I said during the summer that this was a risky approach. While the guys still had upside, it's the dreaded P - word situation. It appears to be there, but what if it doesn't materialize? Then you're stuck with an even worse bench than before. And, specifically in terms of DJ, we really have one worthwhile option at PG. How in the hell did TPTB let that happen? That's inexcusable.

Sollozzo
11-10-2012, 08:18 AM
IMO, it's all pretty simple. Last year we had Granger and Collison. Those two guys were extremely valuable contributors and gave us instant offense. But none of our new players come remotely close to replacing them, and none of our old players have improved enough to make up for their absence. The Granger situation obviously isn't the Pacers' fault, but the Collison one sure is. We traded Collison for a complete stiff, and then replaced Collison with a player who has been completely worthless so far. I hate hate hate that trade.

We essentially lost two of our best players from the last two teams and don't have anyone on the roster who replaces them. It's not surprising that we aren't very good right now. This year's team simply is not as good and deep as last year's.

BlueNGold
11-10-2012, 08:21 AM
If Granger was available, we would be 5-1 and would have beaten the TWolves by 5 or 10 points. A team leading their division. I am not a Granger fan, but I'm gaining more respect for his role on this team. That role has been getting shots when they are needed and to be honest I didn't respect that enough.

Again, we would be 5-1 leading our division.

BlueNGold
11-10-2012, 08:23 AM
IMO, it's all pretty simple. Last year we had Granger and Collison. Those two guys were extremely valuable contributors and gave us instant offense. But none of our new players come remotely close to replacing them, and none of our old players have improved enough to make up for their absence. The Granger situation obviously isn't the Pacers' fault, but the Collison one sure is. We traded Collison for a complete stiff, and then replaced Collison with a player who has been completely worthless so far. I hate hate hate that trade.

We essentially lost two of our best players from the last two teams and don't have anyone on the roster who replaces them. It's not surprising that we aren't very good right now. This year's team simply is not as good and deep as last year's.

The Collison trade is looking bad right now. Augustin looks worse than AJ Price, so I agree. But much of this would be unnoticeable if we had Granger's 20PPG.

D-BONE
11-10-2012, 08:23 AM
And to add insult to injury, not only is Agustin not that good, he displays no leadership on focus on the floor. Oh, I'm not playing well tonight, guess I'll just half - *** around and mope about it. Just what we need from the veteran we brought in to run the second unit.

Mahinmi in REAL play looks exactly like what I observed in his limited PT days in Dallas. Great physical specimen capable of a great looking game of the bench once in a blue moon. But, otherwise incapable of harnessing the physical gifts with needed fundamentals, focus, and restraint to be a consistent contributor.

D-BONE
11-10-2012, 08:25 AM
It might go unnoticed to this point sans DG given the competiton we've played. However, in terms of big picture aspirations, I think it would eventually reveal itself - the offseason acquisitions did not upgrade the talent level compared to what we let go.

McKeyFan
11-10-2012, 08:25 AM
I remember not too long ago the same thing was said about LeBron James, quite often on this board. I don't have any illusions that George is anywhere near LeBron's level as a basketball player, but he does have a lot of the same team flow, good shot instincts that LeBron was slammed for his entire career.
Lebron was mentally tough the first game he played in the NBA as a teenager.

D-BONE
11-10-2012, 08:27 AM
I mean, let's keep in mind, the mantra coming into the year was how deep we were. I thought that was trumped up last year once we hit the playoffs. Well, that was nothing compared to the sham they're selling now. Has our bench been clearly superior to any of our opponents thus far? If so, they certainly haven't proven it on the court.

King Tuts Tomb
11-10-2012, 08:30 AM
Lebron was mentally tough the first game he played in the NBA as a teenager.

I agree. But that wasn't the consensus in the media and on this board. Does no one else remember "LeBron is a choker and he doesn't have the killer instinct in his DNA like Kobe and Jordan."

McKeyFan
11-10-2012, 08:35 AM
Yes, Paul is playing fine for the type of player he is. But like you say, we need a 20 ppg scorer. I believe the Pacers thought he would be, clearly that is not the case.

Lance can be that 20 ppg scorer. He is the leading scorer in the history of New York. He has the mentality to put it on his shoulders and produce.

He clearly has the moves and the creating ability to make this happen. As a bonus, he has superb vision. Unlike a Crawford or Westbrook, if Lance dials it in he can also make everyone else better on the team.

This has been obvious from what we've seen on the floor so far. Instead, Vogel has limited Lance's minutes, kept him on a short leash (pulled him the other night after making two mistakes), refused to play him at the beginning of each half with the starters, leading to large deficits, and genearally acted like Lance pi$$ed in his Cheerios (which maybe he did. I don't know. I would be a lot happier to learn that something like that were the explanation, rather than stupidity and stubbornness--uh, oh, maybe he did pick up something from the one we do not name).

Let's give Lance 20 shots per game. I guarantee better things would happen than what we've seen so far.

D-BONE
11-10-2012, 08:40 AM
I agree, from what we've seen so far, Lance appears to be the most likely guy to take on some scoring load. On one hand, I'd like to see him move to starting unit. On the other hand, take him off the second team and think how bad they'd be then. Tyler and his energy alone aren't going to cut it.

aamcguy
11-10-2012, 08:40 AM
Mahinmi in REAL play looks exactly like what I observed in his limited PT days in Dallas. Great physical specimen capable of a great looking game of the bench once in a blue moon. But, otherwise incapable of harnessing the physical gifts with needed fundamentals, focus, and restraint to be a consistent contributor.

In other words, a young backup center?

This is all very frustrating right now, but Paul George has never seemed like he's on the verge of breaking out to me. It's always seemed like he just keeps improving. And there's nothing wrong with that if you have scorers. Also, our situation is somewhat of a perfect storm. Say what you will about how ugly our offense was last season, but we got rid of our best 3 point shooters. We traded Dahntay Jones (.429, 1st), let Barbosa go (.424, 2nd), and traded Collison (.362, 6th). Then when we lost Granger (.381, 4th) it really complicated things. So not only did we lose 4 of our bst 6 3 point shooters, but our top scorer as well.

I think the loss of Jones has actually been worse for us than the loss of Collison. He's basically turned into a SG version of Battier. Last season he consistently took - and made - his wide open corner threes that our guys are missing this year.

D-BONE
11-10-2012, 08:43 AM
So are you saying trading two borderline starters for Mahinmi was an acceptable move? We couldn't have got an equally or more serviceable backup someplace else? Possibly for less money and not a 4 yr investiment?

Sollozzo
11-10-2012, 08:44 AM
Jones always seemed like a good locker room guy too. Even when he wasn't getting clock, he was always cheering hard on the bench and firing the team up.

McKeyFan
11-10-2012, 08:45 AM
I always liked Dahntay.

He wasn't as great a defender as the hype. But he was decent, and he was tough, and he was a competitor. He's strong as an ox.

He could score pretty well at times and he could hit that outside shot. Yes, he had the "black hole" problem, but that actually improved last year. Conversely, his black holeness could actually be a positive when everyone else on the court played like a scared chicken. He at least had the balls to do something with the shot clock winding down.

He was moving in the right direction, and he would really be helping us right now. A much better piece for us than Sam Young.

BlueNGold
11-10-2012, 08:52 AM
Ignoring the fact we lost Granger, I do think our bench is worse.

It's worse because Augustin is a big downgrade from Collison. I'm surprised by that. I'm even more surprised that AJ Price is a better PG.

It's worse because DJones was a savvy veteran and Sam Young is not and may not be a legit NBA player.

It's slightly worse because Ian may be bigger than Lou, but he's not tougher and not as savvy.

But it's a little better because Lance Stephenson is really doing well now.

So, what you see is no Granger, no clutch Collison scoring and beyond Collison a slight downgrade for the bench. These are important things and while some of our other players may actually be better this year, including Paul George, we have taken a small step back.

LoneGranger33
11-10-2012, 08:55 AM
I'm ready to panic, but for those still wondering whether they should join me, here is some potentially good news:

1) With a few exceptions, all the Pacers (especially our All-Star center) are playing poorly this year.
2) All four of our losses have come on the road, and except for the Spurs game, they were all one possession losses.
3) We're missing our best player and leading scorer.
4) Many of our bench players are either new to the team or to their roles.

Why feel good about it? Because these are all areas where improvement is not only possible, but plausible too.

Now, if we lose to the 0-4 Wizards at home...

OlBlu
11-10-2012, 09:03 AM
So are you saying trading two borderline starters for Mahinmi was an acceptable move? We couldn't have got an equally or more serviceable backup someplace else? Possibly for less money and not a 4 yr investiment?

Those two players were not borderline starters. They were journeymen NBA players... There are lots of them.... :cool:

DGPR
11-10-2012, 09:23 AM
I think it's pretty clear that we are missing Danny's fire and leadership. I haven't even seen him on the bench with the team on these road games, or maybe I just haven't been looking hard enough.

BlueNGold
11-10-2012, 09:30 AM
There were not many dead eye shooters on the team last year. In the context of a competitive game, Granger and Collison were two of the most reliable shooters on the team last year. They truly were go-to guys for us. We are really missing that.

ejwallace
11-10-2012, 09:46 AM
What a difference a year can make....Just last year, everyone was ready to shelf DC, and wanted him out of the first unit....Hell there were even some claiming that we should give AJ a shot above DC....And take a look at both of them this year....DC is excelling much better than AJ, but AJ is putting up numbers that we never saw....Our offense isn't conducive to point guards....Give Augustin a break. He's a good player but he has been thrust into a system that doesn't fit his game play. As has been said on this board numerous times, even Nash or DWill wouldn't have the impact everyone was hoping for DUE TO OUR SYSTEM.

The exact same thing is happening to PG24 that happened to Granger for a majority of his career, and now we are even doing the same thing to Mahimni and Green. We are EXPECTING all these players to step up and play above their skill set.

Many of us on this board will agree that there has been too much pressure on Granger throughout his career, and that pressure, role, and expectations have actually HURT his overall game and performance. Let's face it, we don't have a go to guy on this team, and the expectations that PG24 needs to score more, continue rebounding at the level he is, AND continue playing steller defense....Come on.... Too much pressure, too many expectations, and not enough production to subdue the masses.....

I think this issue goes more to the mindset of TPTB and Frank. TPTB have shown that they have the mindset that they are perfectly fine expecting more out of players than what they are capable of. They are willing to save a buck while taking the gamble that someone will perform leaps and bounds above their expectations. That is the support that Frank gets, and at this point, Frank is going to have to figure out what the issue is.

At this point, I think that we need to reevaluate our system. We have the talent and the athleticism to be effective, but it seems to me that we don't have the mindset, from anyone. TPTB are content with discount players over stars, Frank is comfortable trying not to rock the boat and change up the system, and the players....Well they are comfortable playing within their capacity....

The only way to turn this around is change....Either we change the mindset, change the system, add a go to scorer and hope the rest of the team can be effective....But SOMETHING needs to change. I would honestly like to see a system that would allow Augustin to be on the floor with the starters and let him distribute. Move Hill back to the 2, allowing him to score without having to be the primary facilitator. Move PG24 to the 3, and let him play closer to the basket with the occasional long range jumper....Let DWest eat up other teams as he has been, and take the pressure off of Roy so that he can thrive and be the player we all want him to be.

Bottom line is, Granger is injured and what we are doing IS NOT working. We're only 6 games into the season, and there is PLENTY of time left to turn this around....The problem is, it won't turn around unless we make some changes, and make them quick....

2minutes twoa
11-10-2012, 09:54 AM
I do agree it's time to listen to offers for PG. If you can put a package together that gets a real difference maker, you have to pull the trigger.

owl
11-10-2012, 09:55 AM
The problem with George is he's just not cut out to be a first or second option scorer. Don't believe it in his basketball DNA. Rebounding and Defending are, obviously.

Like the OP, I'd love to see more passion/intensity from him on the court. But, a player like Derrick McKey was very effective with a similar smooth, laid back demeanor. The difference is the role fit McKey. George is being thrust into an expectation of major scoring. For better or worse, either he or Roy are going to have to provide more points to complement West & Hill in the absence of DG.

What's asinine at this point is not shifting PG down to SF and either starting Lance at SG or running Agustin and Hill together.

Agree about the faulty strategy for acquiring the new offseason guys. I said during the summer that this was a risky approach. While the guys still had upside, it's the dreaded P - word situation. It appears to be there, but what if it doesn't materialize? Then you're stuck with an even worse bench than before. And, specifically in terms of DJ, we really have one worthwhile option at PG. How in the hell did TPTB let that happen? That's inexcusable.


I believe Ben Hansbrough can man the back up point better than DJ.

Cousy47
11-10-2012, 10:20 AM
If Granger was available, we would be 5-1 and would have beaten the TWolves by 5 or 10 points. A team leading their division. I am not a Granger fan, but I'm gaining more respect for his role on this team. That role has been getting shots when they are needed and to be honest I didn't respect that enough.

Again, we would be 5-1 leading our division. I kinda agree with you. The other thing we miss is if teams double and triple teamed Roy off DG, he'd go for 30 on you for disrespecting him.. Danny has a killer instinct that came from his college days. If you slack off him and get him going, he is really hard to get back under control. If PG starts rolling and ou rough him up and stop him a few times, he gets shy, IMO. We miss Granger's anger at being beat more than his scoring. GG, IM and PG seem to have short memories and don't even hold on to hard fouls or bad calls against them. Unlike West and Hans who are going to punish you physically the next time down the floor. Hill has that attitude and Lance is growing it. Those are the players who never slack off and never, ever quit even if they are having a terrible game.

Pacer Fan
11-10-2012, 10:28 AM
Right on Diamond Dave!

I am puzzled by by the effort in some situations.
I think the team has lost their identity with Danny out and Frank doesn't know what to do about it.
I think Frank needs fired today and promote Shaw to show the players that this play is unacceptable. No difference then what just happened in LA.
Fortunately, some of our players can't be traded quite yet and they have time to turn this ship around before it sinks.

And, I don't think it was fair that the fan with the flood light shined it in Green's eyes at the end of the game... wtf was that Green!!!

I'm so disappointed!

vnzla81
11-10-2012, 10:43 AM
Jones always seemed like a good locker room guy too. Even when he wasn't getting clock, he was always cheering hard on the bench and firing the team up.

Again for the million time it was reported that DJ was somewhat of a locker room cancer reason why they had to move him.

DangerGranger3pointranger
11-10-2012, 10:50 AM
I'm already dissapointed in the Pacers,but if we lose tonight, I might just kill somebody.:mad:

vnzla81
11-10-2012, 10:53 AM
Paul George: I'm saying it, I doubt I'm the only one thinking it, but I fear no flame that it will bring me. Trade him. Thats right. Trade him while his value is still sky high

I would like to use DD's thinking about Paul George on West, the Pacers should think about trading West now that he is looking healthy, I bet they can get a good package of young guys and picks for him, we need to remember that he is a free agent next year and the Pacers can lose the guy for nothing and less be real, this team without Danny is not competing for anything.

3rdStrike
11-10-2012, 11:20 AM
I agree. But that wasn't the consensus in the media and on this board. Does no one else remember "LeBron is a choker and he doesn't have the killer instinct in his DNA like Kobe and Jordan."

This is just ridiculous. Nobody is talking about clutch factor or finishing a game. Lebron is the leading scorer wherever he goes, whoever is on his team. Even when he was passing on the final shot in Cleveland, he was still taking 20 shots during the flow of the game and carrying the team. Paul George isn't even willing to take the second most shots on his team when the leading scorer is out for months (if not more).

To recap: you're talking about people questioning Lebron for his late game and playoff failures. You're illogically comparing it to Paul George's refusal to take shots in week one of the regular season. Doesn't compute. End of story.

McKeyFan
11-10-2012, 11:40 AM
Again for the million time it was reported that DJ was somewhat of a locker room cancer reason why they had to move him.
Wow. This is the first I've heard of that. It took the millionth time. (I'm being serious.)

vnzla81
11-10-2012, 11:45 AM
Wow. This is the first I've heard of that. It took the millionth time. (I'm being serious.)

I posted and article after the trade were Wells talked about this, he also said the same thing on radio interviews, he said that DJ was a problem in the locker room, it makes sense if you look at that one side trade, good player + locker room cancer = Mahinmi.

beast23
11-10-2012, 11:50 AM
Paul George is 22 years old. Give it time. He'll get it.
The problem is that, ignoring the injuries, he is following the same pattern Bender did. Another player with extreme athleticism, even much better defensively, that we will be forced to pay big bucks upon re-signing before he has evolved into the player deserving of those dollars.

That means we risk once again being in cap he'll with another Bender or Croshere.

I've said all along that this season is a crap or get off the pot season for George. So far we've saved a few bucks on toilet paper. For me, his leash and time are both short. He needs to put on his big-boy pants and man up. Either that or the Pacers should find a good team to fleece and get a very good player and a decent pick for him.

OlBlu
11-10-2012, 11:51 AM
I would like to use DD's thinking about Paul George on West, the Pacers should think about trading West now that he is looking healthy, I bet they can get a good package of young guys and picks for him, we need to remember that he is a free agent next year and the Pacers can lose the guy for nothing and less be real, this team without Danny is not competing for anything.

I don't think you can get that much for him. Perhaps a prospect and a draft choice to a contender...... You are right, if this year goes down the tubes, we should think about that. In fact, when Granger gets back we should consider moving him too if something good comes up....:cool: ...

vnzla81
11-10-2012, 11:59 AM
I don't think you can get that much for him. Perhaps a prospect and a draft choice to a contender...... You are right, if this year goes down the tubes, we should think about that. In fact, when Granger gets back we should consider moving him too if something good comes up....:cool: ...

Nobody wants Danny, Danny is damage goods at this point, West is the only asset the Pacers have but I expect them to not use it like they usually do.

Sollozzo
11-10-2012, 12:06 PM
Again for the million time it was reported that DJ was somewhat of a locker room cancer reason why they had to move him.


Like McKeyfan, I somehow missed that. Thanks. It still doesn't excuse that horrible (so far, at least) trade though.

idioteque
11-10-2012, 12:06 PM
I always liked DC (although I was often infuriated with him) but it seemed like the offensive system we had never played to his strengths. If he turns out to be solid starting PG in Dallas, that's all on the coaching staff. What a travesty (not for DC, obviously I'm rooting for him to succeed) for Pacers fans if its true.

idioteque
11-10-2012, 12:09 PM
Like McKeyfan, I somehow missed that. Thanks. It still doesn't excuse that horrible (so far, at least) trade though.

A friend at PS&E told me that he took a bunch of the young guys out partying late into the night during the playoff series with the Bulls a couple of years ago in Chicago the night before a game and it pissed TPTB off. After that, I think it was only a matter of time.

Sucks because he has a great skill set for a complimentary player and as others said his "black holeness" sometimes helped our indecisive bench. I was pissed when he was traded and I am pissed now.

Pacergeek
11-10-2012, 12:16 PM
Can we please stop making excuses for Green. It doesn't matter what his role is or which unit he was supposed to play with. Either you can, or you can't play, regardless of your supposed "role". Green cannot play. Forget how he played last season, where he had the green light on a bad team. Anybody can score in this league when coach gives them approval to chuck up shots. So much more to basketball than scoring.

King Tuts Tomb
11-10-2012, 12:22 PM
This is just ridiculous. Nobody is talking about clutch factor or finishing a game. Lebron is the leading scorer wherever he goes, whoever is on his team. Even when he was passing on the final shot in Cleveland, he was still taking 20 shots during the flow of the game and carrying the team. Paul George isn't even willing to take the second most shots on his team when the leading scorer is out for months (if not more).

To recap: you're talking about people questioning Lebron for his late game and playoff failures. You're illogically comparing it to Paul George's refusal to take shots in week one of the regular season. Doesn't compute. End of story.

No. I'm making the point that fans and the media often degrade a player because he doesn't have the correct genetic make up or brain chemistry to succeed. I disagree. I think players are often not ready at the time, but that there is nothing wrong with their DNA.

I didn't think LeBron lacked a "clutch gene" two years ago. I thought he hadn't quite figured out the balance of scoring and passing he needed to be successful in the postseason. I assumed he would, and he did.

I don't think Paul George lacks any specific genes that will keep him from being a very good starting two guard in the league. I just think he's 22 years old and has a tendency to defer to the older guys on the team.

I never said George was anything like LeBron (edit: I was wrong here. I did say George's patience on the court was similar to LeBron, but my larger point remains the same) or that their situations were similar at all. What I said is that the media and fans ascribe a player's failure to innate personality defects or character flaws. They did it in LeBron's case and it's happening here as well with George.

Pacergeek
11-10-2012, 12:24 PM
Paul George is 22 years old. Give it time. He'll get it.

This is a tiresome excuse for Paul. He is in his 3rd year, and played heavy minutes his first 2 seasons. He is now completely acclimated to the style of the NBA. What we are seeing now from Paul is what he is, and all he is ever going to be, a good rotational player/fringe starter

aamcguy
11-10-2012, 12:29 PM
Can we please stop making excuses for Green. It doesn't matter what his role is or which unit he was supposed to play with. Either you can, or you can't play, regardless of your supposed "role". Green cannot play. Forget how he played last season, where he had the green light on a bad team. Anybody can score in this league when coach gives them approval to chuck up shots. So much more to basketball than scoring.

I would agree, except that he does show a lot of good along with his bad. And as the season goes on he seems to be showing more good opposed to bad. And if you watch the shots he takes, it's pretty obvious to me that he's got the green light on THIS team to shoot. Otherwise, Vogel would pull him like he usually does after Lance makes a couple boneheaded plays.

Ace E.Anderson
11-10-2012, 12:30 PM
I would like to use DD's thinking about Paul George on West, the Pacers should think about trading West now that he is looking healthy, I bet they can get a good package of young guys and picks for him, we need to remember that he is a free agent next year and the Pacers can lose the guy for nothing and less be real, this team without Danny is not competing for anything.

The prob wouldn't be trading West, the prob would be what're we getting back?

A few teams come to mind where West would make immediate dividends:
1. Bos
2. Por
3. Hou
4. Den

But what could they offer us that will keep us decent for the short term, nd help provide answers long term.

One thing is obvious to me. In this league you can only have one big whose slow nd plays under the rim. If we are ever gonna get the best out of our max C, we gotta surround him with athletes and shooters. I think Danny playing the 4 next to Roy is ideal for both (ESP with Danny's knee issue) but if we ever traded West, it'd have to be for a player that can play that energized/undersized tweener, preferably with range on his J (Wilson Chandler, Derrick Williams, Ryan Anderson, types) it's just the way of the league now.

hoosierguy
11-10-2012, 12:30 PM
Everyone calm down. The Pacers have played five of their first six games on the road and three of their four losses have been by three points or less. The next two games are very winneable allowing the Pacers to get back to .500.

aamcguy
11-10-2012, 12:32 PM
This is a tiresome excuse for Paul. He is in his 3rd year, and played heavy minutes his first 2 seasons. He is now completely acclimated to the style of the NBA. What we are seeing now from Paul is what he is, and all he is ever going to be, a good rotational player/fringe starter

I agree with you, but I don't think that's such a negative. The thing is though, he continues to add offensive capabilities to his repertoire. His rookie season he scored off of cuts and fast break opportunites. His second season he added a fairly reliable 3 point shot. This year, he's worked some on scoring from the elbow and shows better ballhandling and playmaking abilities. He's never going to be a top 10 superstar, but the guy is an amazing player nonetheless.

Pacergeek
11-10-2012, 12:33 PM
Everyone calm down. The Pacers have played five of their first six games on the road and three of their four losses have been by three points or less. The next two games are very winneable allowing the Pacers to get back to .500.

We lost to Charlotte! I will not calm down!

clownskull
11-10-2012, 12:49 PM
I believe Ben Hansbrough can man the back up point better than DJ.

you could very well be right on that.
heck- at this point, i think stephen hawking could man the backup point better than dj.

Bball
11-10-2012, 01:21 PM
IMO, it's all pretty simple. Last year we had Granger and Collison. Those two guys were extremely valuable contributors and gave us instant offense. But none of our new players come remotely close to replacing them, and none of our old players have improved enough to make up for their absence. The Granger situation obviously isn't the Pacers' fault, but the Collison one sure is. We traded Collison for a complete stiff, and then replaced Collison with a player who has been completely worthless so far. I hate hate hate that trade.

We essentially lost two of our best players from the last two teams and don't have anyone on the roster who replaces them. It's not surprising that we aren't very good right now. This year's team simply is not as good and deep as last year's.

The knee situation might be worse than hoped or expected by the Pacers brass but they certainly knew his knee had turned into an issue last season. They also knew who Granger was and was not. They also knew that while Granger is good he's not best player on a championship team good. Did they upgrade Granger's position? Did they address a backup plan for Granger? More importantly did they address a complementary player for Granger (which would also serve as a backup plan)? IMHO only in a roll the dice, get by on the cheap, trying to find a diamond on the rough kind of way at best.

twslam07
11-10-2012, 02:06 PM
You don't move George right now. Not when he has 2 more years left on his contract before you have to extend him. Give him more time to see what he can develop into first before you decide we should trade him.

I don't see him as a 1st or 2nd option, and I'm on the fence about calling him a 3rd option. He is an excellent glue guy who can put up points. He should model his game after Iguodala. He should be focusing on defense, rebounding, playmaking, and knocking down the open shot.

Someone mentioned that we should trade West since his contact is expiring. I like the idea of letting him walk and having the extra 10 mil to sign someone else.

I think it is about time we part ways with Granger. We should look to move him for a good SG and maybe cap relief. Say the SG we trade for is on a 8 mil a year deal. That will give us an extra 6 mil come offseason.

That will give us around 15-16 mil in cap room. We can then go out and sign a good big man. Josh Smith and Al Jefferson would be nice to have at the 4.

dal9
11-10-2012, 02:41 PM
Like McKeyfan, I somehow missed that. Thanks. It still doesn't excuse that horrible (so far, at least) trade though.

Don't know if y'all noticed, but the Pacers/Wells have a tendency to "report" that someone was a locker room problem right after they release/trade a player. Rush, DC, DJones. It's just to pacify the fanbase.

MnvrChvy
11-10-2012, 03:13 PM
If I'm KP or Walsh, I'm starting to personally monitor the offensive practices. At this point, it seems to be pretty obvious that this scheme is not working. I think that is why Lance is looking so good right now and Paul is having such a hard time. Paul needs solid plays that put him in a position to capitalize. Lance is the best player on our team for taking nothing and turning it into something (except for maybe Hill) just because he has solid court vision. I'm not completely down on our roster right now, nor am I completely down on our coaches.
BUT if this offensive scheme doesn't start to produce results, I will expect them to alter/abandon it. If we are still losing like this in 10 games, and you can still predict exactly what they are going to do on every play, then I will be a pretty ticked off fan. I really believe Lance and George will benefit from some more coherent plays, but I think George would make a significant jump.

jtroub8
11-10-2012, 04:05 PM
I agree with most of the original OP's rant except for a couple things....

First: Trade PG?!?!? Are you serious? No disrespect but I think I've heard it all now. What do you expect to get in a trade? I also think if you asked anybody on PD before the season began if you thought PG would avg 20ppg this year I dont think there is 1 person who thought that was going to happen. I will give you that he needs to be more assertive/passionate, cut down on TO's and get to the hole better but the pecking order is working against PG. You have West, Hill & our MAX center all above PG in terms of plays called for, salary and experience. PG has been the 4th-5th option on this team & Granger goes down and everybody expects him to all of a sudden become the main focal point of the offense? The guy is still in his rookie contract & growing as a player, still trying to figure out how to be our best defender AND be "the man" on O........P.S. the P's were soooooooo good when DG averaged 26ppg sigh, insert green. Sorry but I'll keep PG and let him grow cuz even when he's not scoring he's doing the other things to help the team win.

2nd: Can we please stop with the crying over who the P's USED to have?! I hated the DC trade & was not happy with the offseason signings but to keep talking about what could should would of been on guys from the past isnt going to do any good. I hate this saying but "it is what it is." Again I do understand the frustration but lets move on Pacer fans cuz all the "wish we still had DC" posts isn't bringing DC back.

BlueNGold
11-10-2012, 04:12 PM
Paul isn't going to be Kobe Bryant but he will be Paul George and in the right system he will break 20ppg, defend at the highest level and rebound very well. Anyone is tradeable of course, but it better be a guy who is already a great player and isn't older that 28.

3rdStrike
11-10-2012, 04:16 PM
^ I totally agree on the bitter tears over former Pacers. That's just how it goes. DC was not cutting it for this team and he was not going to cut it for this team. I'm glad he's playing well in Dallas because he played hard and stayed out of trouble here, but he's got an infinitely superior coach and the trend suggests that the coach was holding him back here (by that I mean that he was good in NO and now he's playing pretty well in Dallas). I don't care about the trade because he wasn't getting it done as a Pacer. And the new guys have been here less than 10 games and people are ready to say they're trash.

Danny Granger was shooting worse than Gerald Green at this point last season, so people declaring him awful or pretending that Granger's injury is the difference so far are conveniently forgetting how the team had to bail him out for the first third of the season. He's taking similar shots to what DG took, which is probably Vogel's doing. Though to be honest his shot attempts haven't been that bad, he's just been cold. Augustin thinking he's Reggie Miller is embarrassing, but again what happens to point guards under Vogel?


But with that all said, Paul George isn't learning how to be "the man" on O, as you suggest. It's really simple: take more shots, pass up opportunities less and take the ball to basket to get free throws. Seriously. It's about effort, not years of experience. There's no mystic fog that he has to wade through to become a better scorer. No school of scoring that he has to attend for four years. And this is the problem. He's not putting forth the effort. He talked an amazing talk in the offseason, but talk is cheap.

ChicagoJ
11-10-2012, 04:43 PM
Someone mentioned that we should trade West since his contact is expiring. I like the idea of letting him walk and having the extra 10 mil to sign someone else.

I think it is about time we part ways with Granger. We should look to move him for a good SG and maybe cap relief. Say the SG we trade for is on a 8 mil a year deal. That will give us an extra 6 mil come offseason.

That will give us around 15-16 mil in cap room. We can then go out and sign a good big man. Josh Smith and Al Jefferson would be nice to have at the 4.

I'm not sure your math works, given that we're over the cap. I, however, am no longer a capologist so I'll defer to others...

On the court, without West, that sounds like a 32, 34 win team. (And you're also talking about a downgrade at SF?) Who's going to take (let alone make) shots in the 4Q? You're not going to sign a go-to-in-the-fourth player in that scenario. George Hill in the 4Q you say? Maybe... if you can find somebody else to run the pick-and-roll in the fourth quarter as well as West does, as that certainly makes it easier for Hill to get the type of shots and moves that he can capitalize on.

jtroub8
11-10-2012, 05:00 PM
I see your point 3rd strike on PG but I was NOT one who thought just because DG went down that PG was now going to be the man on a team that HAS to play like a TEAM to win. No it's not that simple, yes I agree he needs to step up more and by that I mean being more assertive/aggresive on O but there is a FOG like you say or pecking order...So you are trying to tell me that PG should just iso all game long, take 20 shots a game when you have West (10 mil) Hill (8 or w/e mil) & dont even get me started on Hib's (Max)? To me that's a tall order for a 3rd year player who just really got his feet wet last year, I guess my expectations for PG were different than yours for this year and thats fine:) I also think with his TO's this year PG may be a litle hesitant to keep taking it to the hole like you say and trust me I wish he would 2 but that will come with hard work AND experience. To say experience has nothing to do with scoring is just well....silly! No effort?? Last time I checked defense WAS part of the game and to be averaging a double double is not cheap talk to me. PG can't fix ALL his flaws in one offseason.

Derek2k3
11-10-2012, 05:24 PM
Lost in all of this is how awesome Hill has been. Absolutely incredible.

Bird Fan
11-10-2012, 06:12 PM
Anyone else think that the fact we've been playing on the road is part of our problems? We've looked particularly weak on the road in past seasons... Just one piece of the puzzle, could potentially be quite large.

Panicking should really come after we've played a few home games.

3rdStrike
11-10-2012, 06:17 PM
Lost in all of this is how awesome Hill has been. Absolutely incredible.

Lance Stephenson has silenced most of his doubters as well. The ESPN guys still rank on him but that probably speaks well of him...

jtroub8 - I'm not saying Paul George is bad or isn't valuable. He's a very good defender, his ball handling has definitely improved from what I've seen and he's playing more "within the game," to say nothing of his rebounding.

I'm just saying that I'm very disappointed in his hesitance on offense. This is the perfect time for him to take on the task of leading the team in scoring. He's got the physical ability to be a star, he sounded like he wanted to be a star. But this is his third year in the league and he's got an excellent opportunity. There's next to no pressure: if he goes 4-for-20 it's ok, because the Pacers are without their leading scorer anyway. I personally wouldn't trade him, but I have definitely been disappointed in his lack of desire to score.

Magic P
11-10-2012, 06:33 PM
I keep thinking that Paul is not playing that bad, again how many guards are averaging 14 and 10? not only that but he plays lock down D, to me the issue is not that Paul George doesn't average 20ppg to me the issue is that the Pacers front office did a horrible job this off season in getting the right players.

He only averages 14 because all he does is shoot threes and most of those are wide open. PG has been a big disappointment on offense he has no game at all. He has no post moves, no dribble moves to create space for a shot, doesn't know how to run his man into a screen so he can attack the paint or pass it to the open man. He spends the majority of offensive possessions standing in the corner being passive. Huge disappointment PG has been.

Cousy47
11-10-2012, 06:48 PM
So we should be happy to see PG take 20 shots to score 20 points a game. Who loses those shots? West, Hibbs, George? We need to let our coach and jplayers work through their problems and get their lineups together. No plan works when the enemy is joined. It's the emenies job to stop your plan. Once the outside shots start falling, and they will, Hibbs will go back to owning the paint. Still think Roy is playing too many minutes too early in the game.

Heisenberg
11-10-2012, 07:05 PM
Some of us have been trying to convince you guys PG is never going to be a first option or the "next McGrady." Offensive stars aren't created, they're born, more or less. No one's saying PG can't become a better, more well rounded offensive player but he's never going to be a 1st option. It remains nothing but wishful thinking to hope he will.

This is the stuff I've been talking about when I jump on people for calling him McGrady and all that, it makes expectations too high and FAR too unrealistic.

rexnom
11-10-2012, 07:08 PM
Lost in all of this is how awesome Hill has been. Absolutely incredible.
Yeah, after limping for a few games, he's averaging about 20/7/5 and shooting ridiculous percentages for the past four. He's also been solid defensively and big when it's mattered most. He's actually earning that contract of his. It's not quite clear whether it'll be worth it for five years but, for know, the Hill signing was definitely not the problem (though you could quibble that we should have let him hit the market and/or waited a few more days).

Heisenberg
11-10-2012, 07:10 PM
Yeah, after limping for a few games, he's averaging about 20/7/5 and shooting ridiculous percentages for the past four. He's also been solid defensively and big when it's mattered most. He's actually earning that contract of his. It's not quite clear whether it'll be worth it for five years but, for know, the Hill signing was definitely not the problem (though you could quibble that we should have let him hit the market and/or waited a few more days).
I'll forever be bummed we didn't let his restricted free agency play out, but some of the PG extensions given out after don't make it seem so bad anymore. He's certainly been very good the last few games, gotta assume his hip's gotten healthy.

Derek2k3
11-10-2012, 07:15 PM
I'll forever be bummed we didn't let his restricted free agency play out, but some of the PG extensions given out after don't make it seem so bad anymore. He's certainly been very good the last few games, gotta assume his hip's gotten healthy.

Statisitcally, Hill is ranked 12th at his position. That includes the first couple of games in which he was pretty clearly hampered. He's definitely showing he can be counted on for 16-18 PPG and solid defense.

PaulGeorgeHill
04-14-2013, 12:05 AM
Bump....


I was sitting back thinking about the Pacers current slump right now and how almost everyone on here is down on the Pacers right now. And it got me thinking...there was a time just earlier this season that almost everyone thought that this was a lost season, we were unsure what we had without Granger, Roy was in a major slump, and we were going nowhere fast...


Fast-forward 5-6 months and look at us now...3rd in the east with still a chance(may it be a small one) of getting that number 2 seed, we absolutely whooped the defending champions *** is two of the three meetings we played, and experts are still saying this team has the best chance (from the east) to unseat those same defending champs! We can, and WILL right this ship before the playoffs start next week and we all know they can do it because they've already done once just this season!



So everyone on here needs to turn that frown upside down and get your asses behind this team that we all know can turn this slump around into one of the deepest and best playoff runs the state of Indiana has ever seen! Now lets start tomorrow by going into New York and whooping that *** and stepping on their throats! Let's put the rest of the League on notice...The road to the championship WILL go through these cornfields!!!!


Time to step up Pacers and show us what you really got!!! And remember PacersDigest bretheren we are fans of this awesome basketball team and need to stick with them through everything! And just remember we have been through a lot worse before to discount what this team is capable of!


PaulGeorgeHill OUT!

PGisthefuture
04-14-2013, 12:25 AM
I understand why some people are panicking the way they are. I'm not exactly sure what to think of the team's current state myself. I haven't got too down on the team because we just saw what they were capable of as a team on that 4 game west coast trip and so many other times this year. I don't know what has gotten into them lately, but I really wanna believe that they will in fact right the ship this week somehow. I have my doubts about tomorrow's game against the Knicks. All I know is we need to figure out how to stop getting in these early slumps and I think Frank is working on something to do so. I really hope they instill some hope back into some of the people on here.

CableKC
04-14-2013, 12:30 AM
Seriously, I thought that this was a brand new thread.....not a thread that was started earlier this season.

What's worse is that reading through all of it....IT STILL APPLIES!

The OP is no different than what any of us could post about this Team over the last 6 games.

Read through each of the analysis for each of the Players that was made by Diamond Dave in November......it applied to them roughly 6 months ago....and despite the way the Team played between January to March......they have reverted back in the last 6 games to the way we played at the beginning of the season...MINUS the defense but with an offense that is prone to mistake and is sloppy.

The name of the thread should be updated to "Panicking is soooooo 5 months ago". :banghead:

PaulGeorgeHill
04-14-2013, 01:08 AM
Seriously, I thought that this was a brand new thread.....not a thread that was started earlier this season.

What's worse is that reading through all of it....IT STILL APPLIES!

The OP is no different than what any of us could post about this Team over the last 6 games.

Read through each of the analysis for each of the Players that was made by Diamond Dave in November......it applied to them roughly 6 months ago....and despite the way the Team played between January to March......they have reverted back in the last 6 games to the way we played at the beginning of the season...MINUS the defense but with an offense that is prone to mistake and is sloppy.

The name of the thread should be updated to "Panicking is soooooo 5 months ago". :banghead:


Right, because they couldn't right the ship before and become the second or third best team in the east. [/QUOTE

Eleazar
04-14-2013, 01:43 AM
i hate when people revive long dead threads.

CableKC
04-14-2013, 02:37 AM
Right, because they couldn't right the ship before and become the second or third best team in the east.
I'm just so shaken with what this Team has done over the last 5 to 6 games that I have no clue whether they can "right the ship" or not over the course of the next 7 games ( 3 regular season and at least 4 Playoff games in the 1st round ). I simply don't know if this Team is capable of simply "turning it on" to become that 2nd or 3rd best Team in the East again.

I will say that with luck, even playing like garbage for 3 QTRs on the defensive end and then 1 QTR of elite level defense ( basically what we have been doing for the last 2 games )...that we can even get past the 1st round. But I know that playing like this against the Knicks or the Heat in the 2nd round won't get us anywhere but a quick 5 to 6 game playoff exit.

Believe me, I hope they can over the next 3 games and can figure it out over the course of the 1st round Playoff matchup. But keep in mind, I'm a "half glass / half empty" type of guy.....that means that I am a pessimist that thinks that what we see now is not because they are fucused on the Playoffs and are making mistakes when it comes to the remaining Regular season games. I think that the Starters are mentally and physically fatigued ( which will carry into the Playoffs ) but at the same time, think that the Starting 5 are capable of beating almost any Team's Starting 5. Unfortunately, IMHO this Team isn't deep enough to make it past the 2nd round....if not the 1st round ( assuming that we aren't lucky ).

RamBo_Lamar
04-14-2013, 03:03 AM
So everyone on here needs to turn that frown upside down and get your asses behind this team that we all know can turn this slump around into one of the deepest and best playoff runs the state of Indiana has ever seen! Now lets start tomorrow by going into New York and whooping that *** and stepping on their throats! Let's put the rest of the League on notice...The road to the championship WILL go through these cornfields!!!!


I love the positivity, and hope you're right.

The Pacers are often like the weather here in Indiana; hard to predict what's coming.
Some days they might stagnate like a lingering cold front, and then all of a sudden come
blowing in like a tornado. I've sometimes wondered if this is by design to keep opposing
scouts off-balance? Am not really sure what to think about the latest slump, but would
not be at all surprised if when they do break out of it will break out in a big way.

Would sure love to see it happen against the "evil" Knicks too.

D-BONE
04-14-2013, 07:15 AM
I'm still behind the team all the way and ready for playoffs to start. But, until proven otherwise, there's no way to have the same level of confidence I had through the winter months and after the 4 - 0 WC trip.

Right now we're just not playing up to the level of the EC's other top 4 seeds. I'm looking at the playoffs as the proving ground for this team to show A) which of this year's versions is the real Pacers and B) if this team is ultimately better, worse, or approximately on the same level as last year's.

Go Pacers!

PaulGeorgeHill
04-14-2013, 09:36 AM
i hate when people revive long dead threads.

Then dont participate...pretty simple

PR07
04-14-2013, 10:15 AM
This is still a very young team. Outside of West, it's not like any of these guys are grizzled veterans or anything. We have Paul and Lance playing roles they've never played before and at a very young age to boot. We can still make some noise. It just depends on what Pacers' team shows up.

PaulGeorgeHill
04-14-2013, 10:30 AM
I really liked the comparison of the Pacers to Indiana weather(maybe we should change the team name lol) and imo this is just the calm before the storm of the year over the NBA.

Coopdog23
04-14-2013, 12:28 PM
I feel like everyone is tired because of how many minutes the starters have had to play. Besides Ian and Tyler (for the most part) the bench has not been very productive nor getting the starters minutes to rest. Last year's bench did that and they had energy players with Lou and Tyler. Tyler still brings that energy, but no one else on the bench has that. But, I think it is good that they are able to comeback from these deficits. It shows we can comeback and that we are competitive with anyone.

Pacemaker
04-14-2013, 12:56 PM
News Flash: This "flawed" team is about to win its 50th game. All of this without its "franchise" player Danny Granger.

Goyle
04-14-2013, 01:13 PM
News Flash: This "flawed" team is about to win its 50th game. All of this without its "franchise" player Danny Granger.

and with three players playing new, more important roles on the team.

We're incredibly inexperienced and that's what's showing. We play great with our backs to the wall and a "everyone's against us" attitude. Once people start believing, they collapse. I think they've played championship basketball for stretches this season, I hope they can show that again in the playoffs.

Eleazar
04-14-2013, 01:21 PM
Then dont participate...pretty simple

The reason for not liking it has nothing to do with participating or not. It has to do with opening it thinking it is new, reading part or all of the first page then realizing I just wasted my time on an old thread.

PaulGeorgeHill
04-14-2013, 01:28 PM
The date when each thread is started is right below the title...take 2 seconds to look down and see this thread was started in November 2012 and you would have wasted the 2 seconds it took to look down instead of what ever time you spent reading it.

Naptown_Seth
04-14-2013, 03:09 PM
The reason for not liking it has nothing to do with participating or not. It has to do with opening it thinking it is new, reading part or all of the first page then realizing I just wasted my time on an old thread.
But it contains new content. Your reasoning is like not browsing back to Pacers Digest because it contains a bunch of older threads that you've already read. Yes it does, but it also contains new content that is also relative to the PACERS, thus someone chooses to post it at PD rather than starting a new forum for new content. I greatly prefer threads on a certain topic being bumped so that the historical reference points are bundled right with the continued discussion. It's better for searches later and it's better for refreshing my mind on where the conversation originally began.

As others have said, there is something to seeing how much remains relevant months later.


The only thing I wish is for there to be a quick link to the first post of a thread when there has been a gap of perhaps 1 week or more. Simply so I could start right up with the new content rather than having to go to the end and work back to find the bump.

BillS
04-14-2013, 03:17 PM
The only thing I wish is for there to be a quick link to the first post of a thread when there has been a gap of perhaps 1 week or more. Simply so I could start right up with the new content rather than having to go to the end and work back to find the bump.

"first unread" not working for you?