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View Full Version : Augustin vs Collison. A good stew takes time.



McKeyFan
11-09-2012, 07:34 AM
The best argument I am reading on the board so far regarding offseason blunders is trading away Collison. With DJ Augustin not performing so well in his place and Darren blowing up in Dallas at the moment, the point is driven home further.

Why I don't agree:

Collison is a good scorer with poor floor vision. He hampered our progress continually because of his ability to play one-on-one but not five-on-five. It took Vogel way too long to replace him with Hill, who has okay floor vision and excellent defense.

Collison's brand of basketball is immediate gratification. He can light it up at times individually. It works during the regular season, during the first three quarters, and before opposing defenses start to figure you out.

It is the beginning of the season and it's been three years since Collison was in the West. Defenses have not adjusted to him. He will not continue to light up opponents like he is currently doing, in my opinion.

Collison is like a carrot in a stew. If you ate all the ingredients before cooking, the raw carrot would be best. If you give all the stew ingredients time to cook and simmer, the carrot is much tastier as is the rest of the stew.

Five guys learning how to play offense together takes time. Sometimes the best teams don't click until the second half of the season (think Larry Brown teams). I like what DJA bring to our team even though he looks bad at the moment. He has the ability, over time, to gel our second unit into a team that plays five on five. To pull it off, Vogel will have to earn his keep. Don't know if that will happen, but I'm hopeful.

With the starters, we have similar issues with what Lance brings. Like DJ, his ability to see the floor and allow the team to play five on five, eventually, will be a slowly acquired art, a stew that takes time to develop.

Our defense has been good. Our offense has some raw meat that needs to cook a little longer with the rest of the ingredients.

Let's give this thing some time.

TheDavisBrothers
11-09-2012, 08:01 AM
DJ is, as mentioned before, maybe the worse defender at his position in the entire league and shoots one of the lowest FG% in the league. His lack of size is even more of a hindrance then DCs. He is not tough enough to fight through screens, strong enough to stop big PGs, fast enough to keep up with speedsters, or tall enough to bother them with his length. He is a bad finisher at the hoop due to his lack of size and even his main scoring threat, the 3 ball, has not been that good the last 2+ years, as he's making about 1 of 3. While I do acknowledge his superior court vision, it's been pointed out now numerous times, our offensive system isn't set up for PGs to thrive, so unless Vogel can start taking advantage of his primary strength, he is going to continue to stuggle...

owl
11-09-2012, 08:31 AM
DJ is, as mentioned before, maybe the worse defender at his position in the entire league and shoots one of the lowest FG% in the league. His lack of size is even more of a hindrance then DCs. He is not tough enough to fight through screens, strong enough to stop big PGs, fast enough to keep up with speedsters, or tall enough to bother them with his length. He is a bad finisher at the hoop due to his lack of size and even his main scoring threat, the 3 ball, has not been that good the last 2+ years, as he's making about 1 of 3. While I do acknowledge his superior court vision, it's been pointed out now numerous times, our offensive system isn't set up for PGs to thrive, so unless Vogel can start taking advantage of his primary strength, he is going to continue to stuggle...


What you said. If the Pacers are going to continue this kind of offense, then trading Collison was a huge mistake.
He was the ONLY player who could brake down defenses with his speed. Currently the Pacers have no one able
to do that. DJ has been very disappointing. Something has to change. Seems like some movement of players on the
frontline is in order.

spreedom
11-09-2012, 09:00 AM
DC currently has a 6:1 assist to turnover ratio. He posted similar overall numbers in New Orleans. I don't think his court vision (or lack thereof) is an actual problem. I think the systems that the Pacers have run over the past 3-4 years haven't been conducive to strong point guard play. The front office clearly decided that the system was a more viable long-term weapon than any particular player.

But as a Mavs fan, I am thrilled to have Collison. He looks like a top 10 PG when he has the right coaching.

beast23
11-09-2012, 09:38 AM
I totally agree with your post. However, I just wanted you to know that I can prepare an exceptional beef stew in just 90 minutes. Just sayin'. :)

Ace E.Anderson
11-09-2012, 09:45 AM
The best argument I am reading on the board so far regarding offseason blunders is trading away Collison. With DJ Augustin not performing so well in his place and Darren blowing up in Dallas at the moment, the point is driven home further.

Why I don't agree:

Collison is a good scorer with poor floor vision. He hampered our progress continually because of his ability to play one-on-one but not five-on-five. It took Vogel way too long to replace him with Hill, who has okay floor vision and excellent defense.

Collison's brand of basketball is immediate gratification. He can light it up at times individually. It works during the regular season, during the first three quarters, and before opposing defenses start to figure you out.

It is the beginning of the season and it's been three years since Collison was in the West. Defenses have not adjusted to him. He will not continue to light up opponents like he is currently doing, in my opinion.

Collison is like a carrot in a stew. If you ate all the ingredients before cooking, the raw carrot would be best. If you give all the stew ingredients time to cook and simmer, the carrot is much tastier as is the rest of the stew.

Five guys learning how to play offense together takes time. Sometimes the best teams don't click until the second half of the season (think Larry Brown teams). I like what DJA bring to our team even though he looks bad at the moment. He has the ability, over time, to gel our second unit into a team that plays five on five. To pull it off, Vogel will have to earn his keep. Don't know if that will happen, but I'm hopeful.

With the starters, we have similar issues with what Lance brings. Like DJ, his ability to see the floor and allow the team to play five on five, eventually, will be a slowly acquired art, a stew that takes time to develop.

Our defense has been good. Our offense has some raw meat that needs to cook a little longer with the rest of the ingredients.

Let's give this thing some time.

THANK YOU!!

Ace E.Anderson
11-09-2012, 09:56 AM
DC currently has a 6:1 assist to turnover ratio. He posted similar overall numbers in New Orleans. I don't think his court vision (or lack thereof) is an actual problem. I think the systems that the Pacers have run over the past 3-4 years haven't been conducive to strong point guard play. The front office clearly decided that the system was a more viable long-term weapon than any particular player.

But as a Mavs fan, I am thrilled to have Collison. He looks like a top 10 PG when he has the right coaching.

In his two years here, he never looked as good as he's looked in a handful of games with the Mavs, and a lot of that has to do with the system. For DC to succeed, he needs to be in control of the ball at all times. He is not an off the ball threat at all whatsoever (spot up 3's, backdoor cuts, etc) This isn't the "offense" we run. We are very post up heavy, and that type of play doesn't lend itself to DC's style--so therefore it wasn't a good fit for either party. I agree he's looking good, but top 10? Never. Let's also not forget, he's in his contract year, a lot of guys tend to put up nice numbers when that's the case.

As much as people have been clamoring for Collison, they are missing the fact that Hill has been our second best player thus far this season. He's still rounding into form after missing all of pre season, but his play against the Hawks was VERY good. He's also bigger, stronger, longer, more athletic, and a better defender than DC ever was. DC is obviously better than DJ, but he didn't want to come off the bench here. Throughout their careers, DC has never played this well (outside of 30 something starts in NO) and DJ has never played this poorly, so I expect things to eventually even out some

BornReady
11-09-2012, 09:58 AM
EW DUDE CARROTS ARE NASTY! Ahaha I kid, but this is an interesting way of describing the situation...I like it!

owl
11-09-2012, 10:22 AM
Let's give this thing some time.


I am willing to give the whole year to see of this can work.

McKeyFan
11-09-2012, 10:33 AM
I am willing to give the whole year to see of this can work.

Nice.

I'm more into half the year mode.

pacergod2
11-09-2012, 10:38 AM
I totally agree with your post. However, I just wanted you to know that I can prepare an exceptional beef stew in just 90 minutes. Just sayin'. :)

Your stew would be better after twice that time. And if you give it until the next day, it is that much better.

I'll be making a seafood bisque with breadbowls. This has got me hungry and it is not even 11am.

Steagles
11-09-2012, 10:40 AM
Id like to see some good cohesion by the all star break. If it takes all year, I'm not going to jump ship.


Sent from #PacerNation using Tapatalk

Pacer Fan
11-09-2012, 11:11 AM
DC is a very good pg guard in this league. As I have said before he is a top 10 PG. He is a P&R, P&P type PG that has a fantastic jump shot and a burst of speed like few others. He is 6' tall but he makes up some height with his 8' standing reach, his vertical and quick feet. He plays bigger then he is. It's a damn shame that our coaching staff couldn't utilize him better in the offense. He was great in the P&R, P&P with West in New Orleans, yet this was not utilized well at all in Indy. Some of this was caused because of West's foot speed & vertical had diminished do to his ACL injury and was recovering throughout the season, but still this could have been utilized much better throughout the season.

As I have said before about people wanting Nash to come here, He would be bald from pullin his hair out from the frustration of Pacers offensive play book (and the lack of) and the lack of execution. Pacers do not run a pg, pass first, high assist offense. The Pacers need a scoring pg that can stretch the floor by a high FG% and also take it to the hole at will. They had that in DC, the Pacers just didn't utilize DC's half court offense like New Orleans did and Dallas is now doing. It's a damn shame that DC, Hill, George, West and Hibbert aren't running this starting 5 right now. And it's a damn shame they couldn't be doing this with a coach that knows his X's & O's.

So, with all this stew you are serving....it gave me food poisoning!

aamcguy
11-09-2012, 11:41 AM
No matter what Collison IS good at, you can't just say we were using him incorrectly and if Vogel fixed the system he would be doing for us what he's doing for Dallas. Three things:

1) We signed West and resigned Hibbert to a max deal. We are going to run lots of post-ups and while DC may be great at certain parts of PG play, he is a TERRIBLE post feeder.

2) Because his entry pass is so bad, he really needs to be a backup point guard. He didn't want to be a backup point guard in a system that he has failed to learn. Say what you will about how flawed our system is, but George Hill thrives in it. So we decided to rent DJ for a year instead of renting DC for a year.

3) Despite his early season slump, DJ Augustin is a good 3 point shooter and a decent distributor. If he was playing true to his form, we may very well be 3-2 or 4-1 and people wouldn't be saying how stupid we were to get rid of Collison.

It would be stupid to keep Collison because he doesn't fit our philosophy. In a more wide-open system, he excels. Just think about how effective Steve Nash has been as a Laker compared to the ball he played with the Mavs and the Suns.

Pacer Fan
11-09-2012, 11:51 AM
Yea, Collison is terrible feeding the post (Hibbert) and Hill is excelling...who are you trying to fool? yourself, cause your not fooling me. Hibbert has to fight for that position for a feed. Half the turnovers Pacers are doing is trying to feed the post and the turnover rate is terrible.

Also, Nash has barely played, so any assessment towards him is flawed to this point.

CableKC
11-09-2012, 11:59 AM
I totally agree with your post. However, I just wanted you to know that I can prepare an exceptional beef stew in just 90 minutes. Just sayin'. :)
Mmmmmm......Beef Stew.......:drool:

Peck
11-09-2012, 12:06 PM
If Collison is a carrot than Augustin is that turnip that just won't cook down.

Ace E.Anderson
11-09-2012, 12:12 PM
Yea, Collison is terrible feeding the post (Hibbert) and Hill is excelling...who are you trying to fool? yourself, cause your not fooling me. Hibbert has to fight for that position for a feed. Half the turnovers Pacers are doing is trying to feed the post and the turnover rate is terrible.

Also, Nash has barely played, so any assessment towards him is flawed to this point.

Most of Hill's to's have been on trying to pass the ball back to West from the pick and pop. Hill is a pretty good post passer. The problem with a lot of our turnovers is that Roy doesn't do a good job of keeping the opposing big's hands from reaching and slapping the ball away as he receives the ball.

Also Hill is averaging just one more T.O per game that DC is, so it's not like he's just throwing the ball away.

DC is currently shooting 56% from the field and 57% from 3. There's no way in hell he's going to keep up those averages. Like I said before, it'll all even out over the course of the season.

Shade
11-09-2012, 12:16 PM
I was livid when we made that trade. You could see during the playoffs that DC was starting to put it together.

Pacer Fan
11-09-2012, 12:26 PM
Most of Hill's to's have been on trying to pass the ball back to West from the pick and pop. Hill is a pretty good post passer. The problem with a lot of our turnovers is that Roy doesn't do a good job of keeping the opposing big's hands from reaching and slapping the ball away as he receives the ball.

Also Hill is averaging just one more T.O per game that DC is, so it's not like he's just throwing the ball away.

DC is currently shooting 56% from the field and 57% from 3. There's no way in hell he's going to keep up those averages. Like I said before, it'll all even out over the course of the season.

You are exactly right, Hill isn't the only Pacers trying to feed the post. Feeding the post has always been a tough sale with Roy being the receiver. Hill is throwing the ball away at times on a simple P&P.

And yes, I'm sure DC isn't gonna keep those % up that high.

Pacer Fan
11-09-2012, 12:38 PM
I was livid when we made that trade. You could see during the playoffs that DC was starting to put it together.

I wasn't upset and I'm still not. I think it was time for DC to move on and I think the trade will be a success. I am happy to get Mahimni, I think he is a great pick up considering there wasn't a lot of options out there. His age, height, weight, foot speed and shooting ability is really good and I hope this coaching staff can sure up his play skills. He also needs to work on keeping possession of the ball (butterfingers), he has always had this problem.

I also wanted D. Jones to be gone, it was time for him to go. I just didn't think we would get a Sam Young as a replacement, not sure why the Pacers couldn't get a better replacement.

But, I can understand why people, like yourself, would be upset about the trade.

Eleazar
11-09-2012, 12:58 PM
Entry passes are two fold. First Roy has trouble sealing off his man, second the passes tend to be not well placed.

Ace E.Anderson
11-09-2012, 01:09 PM
I wasn't upset and I'm still not. I think it was time for DC to move on and I think the trade will be a success. I am happy to get Mahimni, I think he is a great pick up considering there wasn't a lot of options out there. His age, height, weight, foot speed and shooting ability is really good and I hope this coaching staff can sure up his play skills. He also needs to work on keeping possession of the ball (butterfingers), he has always had this problem.

I also wanted D. Jones to be gone, it was time for him to go. I just didn't think we would get a Sam Young as a replacement, not sure why the Pacers couldn't get a better replacement.

But, I can understand why people, like yourself, would be upset about the trade.

Where we messed up in all of this was in going after DJ. I like Augustin and always thought he was pretty decent with the Bobcats, but for the Pacers PG's to be at least somewhat successful within this system, they have to be able to
1. Spot up and shoot the ball
2. Be comfortable/effective without the ball

DJ being a "true" PG is neither of these (though I thought he was a much better shooter than he's shown) so when you combine that with the fact that he's trying to get used to a unit that has 3-4 other new faces that are trying to get acclimated to a new team and all of a sudden you have the mess that is our bench.

It's nice to have a pass first PG who's looking to get the ball to ppl and make plays for others. But when we rely so much on ISO and Post play, we just needed another guard that could adjust to that.

I'm hopeful once we get our rotation's down and people start playing together that DJ will be able to find his niche within the second unit.

McKeyFan
11-09-2012, 01:35 PM
So, with all this stew you are serving....it gave me food poisoning!


If Collison is a carrot than Augustin is that turnip that just won't cook down.
Don't agree with either of these comments, but am reposting them for providing comic relief and respecting the metaphor.

Major Cold
11-09-2012, 02:18 PM
<tbody style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 11px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">
eason
Team
G
GS
MPG
FG%
3p%
FT%
OFF
DEF
RPG
APG
SPG
BPG
TO
PF
PPG


12-13
DAL
5
5
33.2
0.561
0.571
0.813
0.2
2.2
2.4
7.2
1.4
0.0
1.2
1.2
16.2

</tbody>


:(

davidinnc
11-09-2012, 02:24 PM
I was sitting behind the basket in Charlotte and could not believe how poor the post entry passes were. When they were not turned over the recievers were not in a good position to make a move because they were leaning for the ball. One of the things I see with DJ is he tends to hesitate and that gives the defenders a chance to recover. Roy cannot hold his position long enough to wait for the passes.

Since86
11-09-2012, 02:29 PM
Collison got traded because he made it pretty clear that he wasn't going to be all that happy coming off the bench. I don't like the trade basketball wise, but management wise it makes sense.

Collison wasn't a problem while he was here, and I don't think that he would have been a problem had he stayed, but he wanted out and IMHO he deserved to get his wish granted.

CJ Jones
11-09-2012, 03:18 PM
Collison got traded because he made it pretty clear that he wasn't going to be all that happy coming off the bench. I don't like the trade basketball wise, but management wise it makes sense.

Collison wasn't a problem while he was here, and I don't think that he would have been a problem had he stayed, but he wanted out and IMHO he deserved to get his wish granted.

I disagree. You don't give away an asset just because the player doesn't like his role.

CJ Jones
11-09-2012, 03:34 PM
I'm interested to see how Darren plays when Dirk and Kaman comeback, and they have to slow down their offense. Darren thrives in an uptempo, PG dominant game, but how will he do when he becomes the 4th or 5th option like he was with us?