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View Full Version : Hollinger: What's wrong with Indiana Pacers?



pathil275
11-08-2012, 02:47 PM
HavenÄt seen it posted yet!? If I am mistaken, please delete the post.

I think he is pretty accurate and his statistics just prove my subjective impressions.


SOURCE: ESPN (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PERDiem-121108/indiana-pacers-problems-deeper-missing-danny-granger)




ATLANTA -- It looked like the type of win that can turn around a season. The Pacers were up by 14 points on the road in Atlanta, with just six minutes left, and had shown few signs of the offensive struggles that plagued them in their first four games.

And then, befuddled by a Hawks' zone, here's how the next 10 possessions went:

Missed 23-footer.
Missed 20-footer.
Blocked shot at rim.
Turnover.
Missed 26-footer.
Missed 22-footer.
Turnover.
Missed 7-footer.
Missed 23-footer.
Turnover.
Seven straight misses and three turnovers later, the Pacers were down four points with 32 seconds left and essentially toast. When Paul George's final fling didn't hit anything, Indiana had dropped to 2-3.

On a micro level, it's hard to pinpoint one single cause. The Pacers had a couple of open looks that missed, had a couple of forced shots in late-clock situations, and had a couple of bad passes. Hey, it happens. They might also have been out of gas: The four key Pacers (George, Roy Hibbert, David West and George Hill) all played 21 second-half minutes after the bench was destroyed by Atlanta's in the first half, and one will note only one of those 10 possessions produced a shot inside 20 feet.

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Nonetheless, with no Danny Granger for three more months, Indy is in danger of drifting into mediocrity, and Wednesday's crunch-time offensive meltdown underscored the main reason. Indy is 27th in offensive efficiency, despite an opening-week slate that isn't exactly a murderers' row of great defenses: Toronto, Atlanta, Charlotte, Sacramento and San Antonio all rank outside the top 10 at the moment. In fact, the Bobcats are dead last and have been absolutely skewered in every game except the one that Indiana inexplicably lost to them.

How did this happen? The Pacers were supposed to be deep and talented enough to withstand the loss of a key player, especially since most would argue Granger isn't even the best player on the team (that'd be Hibbert). With Gerald Green waiting in the wings and Paul George seeming primed for a breakout, Granger seemed the one player whose loss Indy could absorb most easily.

When we break down the numbers, here's where we get to the weird part. Indiana was one of the most bizarre offenses in NBA annals a year ago, finishing just 28th in both 2-point shooting percentage and percentage of assisted baskets, but ranking eighth in offensive efficiency because they drew fouls, shot 3s, got offensive boards, and avoided turnovers.

In retrospect, this was an amazing accomplishment. Normally teams that post up as much as the Pacers do commit a lot of turnovers, because making the entry passes can be difficult and double-teamed big guys are more prone to mistakes.

Last year's Pacers managed to avoid that fate, but not this year's crew. Indy is 29th in the NBA in turnover rate; on cue, the most important turnover in Wednesday's collapse came on a botched post entry from George to Hibbert. Indy also had miscues that had nothing to do with post-ups, including a comical eight-second violation in the first minute, but the entries seem to be the biggest problem.

Nonetheless, any decline this sharp is rarely so simple. Instead, it's a confluence of factors coming together to knock the Pacers' offense sideways. (And make no mistake, it's just the offense: Indy remains a robust seventh in defense):

• George isn't breaking out. The thought was that Granger's absence would allow George to shine. The reality has been less encouraging, as George looks like the same fourth option he was before the injury. According to Synergy, George has only had nine plays as a pick-and-roll ball handler, and he hasn't earned more: Indy scored on only one of them.

Similarly, he's had only nine plays in isolation, and regardless of the play type he's not making shots and virtually never drawing fouls. (He has eight free throws in 199 minutes this season). Somehow, he's managing to threaten the league lead in turnovers anyway.

The Pacers' go-to guy instead has been West, who has had a whopping 41 post-up tries in five games and leads the club in usage rate. While he hasn't been terrible, this role stretches his abilities to their absolute limit. It would be very helpful if one of the Pacers' perimeter players could establish himself as a legitimate creator, and George is the obvious guy to do it. But so far, it hasn't happened.

• The Collison trade hurt. Darren Collison is doing things in Dallas that he never did in Indiana, so it's perhaps a bit much to pin that on the Pacers. Nonetheless, the decision to replace him with D.J. Augustin has been a massive downgrade. Were Collison still here Indiana might respond to Granger's injury with a Hill-Collison backcourt, producing more ball handling and spacing.

Instead, the Pacers are stuck with Hill and whatever -- a flotsam including Sam Young, Lance Stephenson and Gerald Green. Shockingly, Stephenson has been the best of the three, but that's full of faint praise.

Ideally, they would play Augustin at the one and move Hill to the two, but there are two problems with this. First, Augustin, despite being by far the best passer on the team, just hasn't provided enough scoring and shooting to compel this move. And second, Augustin is a huge liability at the defensive end; unless there's a good place to hide him it's difficult to justify the offensive gain compared with the defensive cost.

• Hibbert needs to play better. Roy Hibbert has a max contract. He also has the lowest usage rate on the team, including the Orlando Johnsons and Ben Hansbroughs, is shooting 42.6 percent, isn't drawing fouls, and is struggling to make catches in the post -- like on the key turnover Wednesday night. No matter what else happens with Indiana, it won't matter if Hibbert doesn't play better. Yes, perhaps the guards could get him some easier looks, but this offense was just as ugly a year ago and Hibbert still got shots and points.

• The bench still stinks. A lot of people think Indiana had a good bench last season and that's what helped them in the lockout year, but that point of view is 100 percent wrong; the Pacers' bench was routinely outscored and only the strength of the starting five kept the team in the East's upper crust. According to NBA.com, last year's team was plus-+261 with either Hill or Collison at the point and the other four starters, and minus-43 the rest of the time.

You're seeing that more now that Granger is out. Indy's starters were very healthy last year aside from an injury to Hill, who was their most replaceable starter because they had Collison behind him, but the Granger injury opens up a new weakness.

Again, the proof is in the numbers. Indiana's "Core 4" of Hill-West-George-Hibbert is plus-14 for the season, which is pretty solid despite their offensive struggles.

Other units? Not so good, a ghastly minus-30 in just 110 minutes. You can't win with that. The Pacers' starters are basically trying to offset a 2011-12 Bobcats performance from the bench. While the cost has been entirely at the defensive end -- the offense with the Core 4 has been just as inefficient as the bench units -- one can see Frank Vogel's dilemma. He doesn't have any offensive solutions hiding on his bench, at least until Gerald Green starts scoring, but has exponentially greater defensive liabilities.

Sum it up and the Pacers can point to a few areas where they might reasonably expect to do better. Hibbert will probably do better, the 3s will probably start falling more often (they've made only 28.6 percent, after being one of the league's better 3-point shooting teams in 2011-12), and Green will probably start scoring. Also, one can still imagine George turning the corner. Those with long memories will also note that Indy's offense had a lot of problems early last season before steadily improving over the course of the year.

With all that said, this team needed to do everything else right to overcome a woeful 2-point shooting percentage a season ago. Even at its best, this was an offense where the ball stuck a lot and many of the shots are contested. The plague of turnovers doesn't offer an easy solution, nor do the shortcomings on the bench and the absence of Collison.

In other words, Indy's problems appear to go a lot deeper than just Danny Granger. But his absence is exacerbating them, and as a result the Pacers' tenure in the East's upper crust is threatening to be short-lived.

Kegboy
11-08-2012, 03:34 PM
Ugh. The thought that we could have replaced Granger with DC in the starting lineup is downright depressing.

Trader Joe
11-08-2012, 03:53 PM
I hadn't even thought about a DC-Hill backcourt til just now. THANKS A LOT HOLLINGER.

Sparhawk
11-08-2012, 03:57 PM
Lance deserves more than faint praise. He's made some bonehead plays, but he's playing so much better than I would have thought to start the year. I think he'll only get better as the season moves along.

I think it comes down to coaching. I don't know if Wells was trying to hint at that, but he never seems to address Vogel's coaching ability for possible reasons this team is playing so badly.

Other than the fallout, yesterday's game was the best the Pacers have played so far. It's a move in the right direction. Even if the offense doesn't get better, if they can reduce those turnovers and get to the line more, then we should start to be as good as last year. Just have to stop shooting long jump shots.

McKeyFan
11-08-2012, 04:10 PM
Lance deserves more than faint praise. He's made some bonehead plays, but he's playing so much better than I would have thought to start the year. I think he'll only get better as the season moves along.

I would agree.


one can see Frank Vogel's dilemma. He doesn't have any offensive solutions hiding on his bench
I think Hollinger shouldn't count Lance out here either.

rexnom
11-08-2012, 04:24 PM
I hadn't even thought about a DC-Hill backcourt til just now. THANKS A LOT HOLLINGER.
Yeah, the DC-Mahinmi trade just looks awful.

Rogco
11-08-2012, 06:27 PM
I'm a little surprised cause I thought that was a really good article. Do you ever watch the Pacers and long for a day where there is ball movement and penetration?

Pace Maker
11-08-2012, 06:41 PM
Hollinger really hit the nail on the head imo

Sollozzo
11-08-2012, 06:52 PM
So far, the Walsh/Pritchard combo gets an F- for their moves this summer. We traded a promising young point guard for an extremely mediocre/bad big man. We replaced that promising young point guard with a point guard in Augistin who isn't even Collison's league right now. Awful trade. Yeah there are those who say that that Collison is doing stuff in Dallas that he never did here, but how do we know he wouldn't have had similar results here this year? He is only in his fourth season and should logically be better than he was in previous years. Regardless, even if he was the exact same player he was last year, he'd still be better than Augistin.

Bird wouldn't have traded Collison for such a bad package. Collison was one of "his guys" and represented one of the best trades he made as GM here. Collison had two years worth of experience with our core of players and would have only developed more chemistry this year had he stayed.

D-BONE
11-08-2012, 06:59 PM
Hate to drudge it up, but our handling of our now max FAs and the moves to "improve" the bench are looking more and more like Simon being unwilling to ante up for the type of moves/talent required for us to make a legit jump.

New bench guys are making our approach look like el - cheapo. That's only going away if they do something.

MikeDC
11-08-2012, 07:26 PM
I don't see how this year's moves indicate cheapness. I don't question how much money they spent as much as I question how they spent it.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2012, 07:37 PM
Hate to drudge it up, but our handling of our now max FAs and the moves to "improve" the bench are looking more and more like Simon being unwilling to ante up for the type of moves/talent required for us to make a legit jump.

New bench guys are making our approach look like el - cheapo. That's only going away if they do something.



Maybe Bird knew something, and frustration was too much for him to stay.

I've been critical of Bird the GM over the years, but I don't see Bird giving Hibbert a max contract.

When Walsh took over the helm, you can best bet both Hibbert and Hill's agents smiled from ear to ear, got $ signs in their eyes, and could hear the cash register go ching ching.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2012, 07:40 PM
I don't question how much money they spent as much as I question how they spent it.


Bingo, we have a winner!

Pacergeek
11-08-2012, 07:41 PM
Hate to drudge it up, but our handling of our now max FAs and the moves to "improve" the bench are looking more and more like Simon being unwilling to ante up for the type of moves/talent required for us to make a legit jump.

New bench guys are making our approach look like el - cheapo. That's only going away if they do something.

OJ Mayo is off to an outstanding start in Dallas. Would sure look great in a Pacer uniform this season

AesopRockOn
11-08-2012, 07:59 PM
The people talking about how great DC and Mayo would be on the Pacers are missing the vast difference between having Rick Carlisle as your head coach versus Frank Vogel.

D-BONE
11-08-2012, 08:00 PM
But GH was definitely a Bird guy and he got max. As much as I like him, I still think that's overpaying. I'm talking more about Simon's unwillingness to spend for the type of performer we need to truly take a step forward.

Now, whoever orchestrated the Collison trade is in serious jeopardy of looking downright incompetent. Then exacerbate the situation by getting a sub-standard replacement. I don't think we need to be looking for a SF add in Granger's absence. I think we should be looking for a better PG option and move PG to SF.

jeffg-body
11-08-2012, 08:02 PM
5 games in and we are flipping out? Come on man. We might be struggling but giving out grades after five games?

Dukins
11-08-2012, 08:15 PM
Hit the nail on the head with this article. Others have mentioned some of the same things and were called pessimistic. Truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue!

Speed
11-08-2012, 08:16 PM
long for a day where there is ball movement and penetration?

Yes

graphic-er
11-08-2012, 09:48 PM
The only thing I don't agree with in this article is Roy Hibbert as our best player. I'm not even sure he is our best defensive player. Especially with his contributions as of late.

I think trading DC for the rights to sign Mahinmi, was a huge mistake. Just by the fact that you don't willingly give up an asset for a back up center to play 15 minutes a game who you could easily sign out right. But what we dont' know is if DC asked for a trade at the end of the year or not.

What is clear though is that DC would not be producing here like he is in Dallas. The system does not allow for it.

I think Vogel can fix this if he changes up the offense a bit. Do alittle more drive and kick style instead of always dumping into the post.

Eleazar
11-08-2012, 10:03 PM
But what we dont' know is if DC asked for a trade at the end of the year or not.

Just speculation, but I think it is highly likely, so much so I would be more surprised if he didn't than if he did.

Sollozzo
11-08-2012, 10:10 PM
5 games in and we are flipping out? Come on man. We might be struggling but giving out grades after five games?

5 games is indeed an extremely short sample size, but it's all we have to go on right now. Everything will obviously re-evaluated after 10 games, 15, 20, etc. But right now, our bench is crap and I have a feeling that we will be regretting the Collison trade all season.

Naptown_Seth
11-08-2012, 10:24 PM
With Gerald Green waiting in the wings and Paul George seeming primed for a breakout, Granger seemed the one player whose loss Indy could absorb most easily....said NaptownSeth, which Vnzla then took totally out of context. ;)




And I stand by the following: the 4 main bench additions are definitely better than we've seen so far. All of them have done better than this in the past, including Mahinmi. In fact Ian's progression is classic in it's development, typical of a guy that gets much better than his initial draft spot.

So suddenly out of nowhere these guys all suck? I call BS on that.

Things aren't working, guys aren't getting how the plays are supposed to work or how to share the ball well. They TRY to pass and share, but they just don't have a gut instinct for where the other guys want to go or when they are going to move. They should have been more dialed in, no debate there, but I just don't buy that what we see is all we should have expected.

DC in Dallas shows you just what circumstances, playbooks and style can do for your numbers. Maybe Vogel needs to figure out some adjustments, maybe the guys just needed more time than we realized. But all 4 new guys have shown passion and effort and given us no reason to think they are just here to phone it in and get paid.

They'll probably screw with our heads by putting it together just when the schedule gets harder and just when we've all given up hope. :)

Ace E.Anderson
11-08-2012, 10:28 PM
The people talking about how great DC and Mayo would be on the Pacers are missing the vast difference between having Rick Carlisle as your head coach versus Frank Vogel.

This. DC didn't look like anything special while he was here, nd now all of a sudden he looks pretty good in DAL. It'll be interesting to see if he can keep it up, but to suggest he looked like a great option here after averaging 10 and 5 is somewhat foolish

immortality
11-09-2012, 02:12 AM
This. DC didn't look like anything special while he was here, nd now all of a sudden he looks pretty good in DAL. It'll be interesting to see if he can keep it up, but to suggest he looked like a great option here after averaging 10 and 5 is somewhat foolish

Carlisle could coach a rock at this point, Mavs are winning with DC, Mayo, and bunch of waiver-wire signings.

notque
11-09-2012, 02:26 AM
We need to go to this lineup.

PG: Augustine / Stephensen (Green Light to attack often)
SG: Hill / Johnson (Yellow)
SF: George / Green (Green Light)
PF: West / Hans (Green Light)
C: Hibbert / Mahimi (Yellow)

With the same offense we have now, except we remove all plays where we dribble at the top of the key wasting time away. We immediately go into offense, or screens or a post play, no dribble dribble dribble dribble...

The only exception is to get the last shot, or to waste time at the end of the game with the lead.

That's what I'd do.

Heisenberg
11-09-2012, 02:36 AM
OJ Mayo is off to an outstanding start in Dallas. Would sure look great in a Pacer uniform this season

OJ Mayo turned down more money from unnamed teams. What teams isn't known, but it's been reported he turned down more money, and it's easy to assume we were one of them, specifically on a one year + team option deal like he got. Start for Dallas with Dirk as a clear #1 or come off the bench in Indy, both for a year, and then try and get a big deal.


Carlisle could coach a rock at this point, Mavs are winning with DC, Mayo, and bunch of waiver-wire signings.
No they aren't. Mayo and an amnestied Brand aren't waiver wire signings unless we want to play semantics. They didn't sign Jamario Moon and Ryan Hollins. But yes, Carlisle's one of the 2 or 3 best coaches in the world.

Heisenberg
11-09-2012, 02:45 AM
Also, giving Pritchard's pet project Pendergraph a guaranteed 2/$3 deal hurt us. It's what, a million or so of capspace wasted instead of just giving him, or anyone equally as useful (read: friggin ME), a minimum deal? A million sounds like nothing but when you were working under what's looking more and more like a self imposed cap it's clearly not. That tiny little deal is awful.

wintermute
11-09-2012, 03:29 AM
Also, giving Pritchard's pet project Pendergraph a guaranteed 2/$3 deal hurt us. It's what, a million or so of capspace wasted instead of just giving him, or anyone equally as useful (read: friggin ME), a minimum deal? A million sounds like nothing but when you were working under what's looking more and more like a self imposed cap it's clearly not. That tiny little deal is awful.

That's just the nature of project players though. Some pan out and some don't. This time last year, Lance looked like a worse investment. IMO, GM's shouldn't be judged on minor signings like this. If they pan out, great. If not, move on.

Mahinmi's 4 yr/$16m is a lot more worrying. That's an albatross contract for a guy averaging 15 min a game. Sure hope he turns it around.

As to Mayo - IMO he'll cool down from his hot start. He's shooting over 60% from 3 right now. Anyone else remember Ben Gordon having a similar hot start I think a couple of seasons ago? Yeah, law of averages caught up with him. Mayo still looks much like the same player.

DC looks fantastic though. I think Carlisle is doing a really good job maximizing his strengths (his quickness, especially).

Heisenberg
11-09-2012, 03:36 AM
Pendergraph's deal isn't a project player contract. I'd have to look it up but it's probably 250% of his minimum money and it was fully guaranteed coming off an ACL tear (right? major knee injury I know) for a guy that had shown nothing. An unguaranteed 1 year minimum for Pendergraph, more than fine with. But it was far more than that. Lance at ~800k a year while being 19 and completely healthy and showing, while basically nothing else and plenty of character concerns, quality off the dribble skills is at least an investment I can understand.

I'm not saying Jeff Pendergraph's deal sabotaged our offseason, but it absolutely hampered us. It's 1.5 mil, which may've been the difference between outright signing Mahinmi instead of trading for him, that should never have been on the books.

I don't mean to dog on Pendergraph, seems like a good dude, but his contract sucks.

McKeyFan
11-09-2012, 06:30 AM
Pendergraph's deal isn't a project player contract. I'd have to look it up but it's probably 250% of his minimum money and it was fully guaranteed coming off an ACL tear (right? major knee injury I know) for a guy that had shown nothing. An unguaranteed 1 year minimum for Pendergraph, more than fine with. But it was far more than that. Lance at ~800k a year while being 19 and completely healthy and showing, while basically nothing else and plenty of character concerns, quality off the dribble skills is at least an investment I can understand.

I'm not saying Jeff Pendergraph's deal sabotaged our offseason, but it absolutely hampered us. It's 1.5 mil, which may've been the difference between outright signing Mahinmi instead of trading for him, that should never have been on the books.

I don't mean to dog on Pendergraph, seems like a good dude, but his contract sucks.

Also might have made the difference in going after Scola or Brand.

PG-24
11-09-2012, 06:55 AM
The only thing I don't agree with in this article is Roy Hibbert as our best player. I'm not even sure he is our best defensive player. Especially with his contributions as of late.

I think trading DC for the rights to sign Mahinmi, was a huge mistake. Just by the fact that you don't willingly give up an asset for a back up center to play 15 minutes a game who you could easily sign out right. But what we dont' know is if DC asked for a trade at the end of the year or not.

What is clear though is that DC would not be producing here like he is in Dallas. The system does not allow for it.

I think Vogel can fix this if he changes up the offense a bit. Do alittle more drive and kick style instead of always dumping into the post.

pritchard in an interview after the trade said something about making players happy. think it was a direct quote about Collison. he wanted to be a starter, we were obviously better with Hill starting, so we traded him rather than have an unhappy player.

cgg
11-09-2012, 06:58 AM
If you want to talk mistakes, talk about wasting amnesty on an expiring Posey. Could have been used on Pendergraph or Jones or whoever else it was that cost us DC for nothing.

PG-24
11-09-2012, 07:04 AM
If you want to talk mistakes, talk about wasting amnesty on an expiring Posey. Could have been used on Pendergraph or Jones or whoever else it was that cost us DC for nothing.

you serious? amnesty pendergraph? do you know how much he's making? or how much Jones was making in comparison to posey?!?

DC didnt want to be here if he wasnt starting and Dallas was probably the only team that wanted him in a starting role. we go what we could before he started pouting.

cgg
11-09-2012, 07:07 AM
Posey would have been expired anyway so he made $0 in the year that matters. Our reasoning for getting nothing back for DC is we had to dump the salary of Jones.

PG-24
11-09-2012, 07:10 AM
a salary dump on a contract that was expiring summer of 13? you really believe that?

PG-24
11-09-2012, 07:10 AM
we dont amnesty posey, we dont get west.

cgg
11-09-2012, 07:14 AM
we dont amnesty posey, we dont get west and damn sure dont get hibbert back.

Posey would have expired after last season. He wouldn't be under contract anymore. The only thing it may have impacted was Barbosa.

PG-24
11-09-2012, 07:15 AM
yea my mistake on poseys contract ending.

Sparhawk
11-09-2012, 07:24 AM
Carlisle is doing a really good job maximizing his strengths (his quickness, especially).

Something Vogel isn't doing right now.

Justin Tyme
11-09-2012, 08:42 AM
Pendergraph's deal isn't a project player contract. I'd have to look it up but it's probably 250% of his minimum money and it was fully guaranteed coming off an ACL tear (right? major knee injury I know) for a guy that had shown nothing. An unguaranteed 1 year minimum for Pendergraph, more than fine with. But it was far more than that. Lance at ~800k a year while being 19 and completely healthy and showing, while basically nothing else and plenty of character concerns, quality off the dribble skills is at least an investment I can understand.

I'm not saying Jeff Pendergraph's deal sabotaged our offseason, but it absolutely hampered us. It's 1.5 mil, which may've been the difference between outright signing Mahinmi instead of trading for him, that should never have been on the books.

I don't mean to dog on Pendergraph, seems like a good dude, but his contract sucks.



Pendergraph deal has KP written all over it. The FO has given out some really questionable guaranteed contracts, and that is one of them.

Eleazar
11-09-2012, 09:25 AM
Pendergraph deal has KP written all over it. The FO has given out some really questionable guaranteed contracts, and that is one of them.

Was KP even here when he was signed?

Sparhawk
11-09-2012, 09:27 AM
Was KP even here when he was signed?

Yes. I think it was his first move, or one of his first moves.

Justin Tyme
11-09-2012, 09:45 AM
Was KP even here when he was signed?


Yep, that's the reason Pendergrapgh got signed, and to a GUARANTEED CONTRACT.

doctor-h
11-09-2012, 10:20 AM
Hit the nail on the head with this article. Others have mentioned some of the same things and were called pessimistic. Truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue!

I was called more than pessimistic but I said this over and over. The Pacers off season was a waste. The Plumless draft was a huge mistake. There was a reason Dallas didn't want Mahimi and the Bobcats wanted nothing to do with Augustine. Green has shown ability but no willingness to be anything more than a jump shooter and a dunker. Paul George has tons of ability but mentally is way too passive to ever be a star player. In the Hawks game when the team needed someone to step up nobody did because there is NO star on this team. And Vogel deserves some blame. His offense is terrible. The last play in the Hawks game was pathetic. Pass the ball around the 3-point line until time runs out and throw up an airball. I am sick and tired of all the talk coming from the Pacers and Vogel in particular. It reminds me of the Jermaine O'Neal days. Big talk and can't back it up.

90'sNBARocked
11-09-2012, 05:20 PM
I was called more than pessimistic but I said this over and over. The Pacers off season was a waste. The Plumless draft was a huge mistake. There was a reason Dallas didn't want Mahimi and the Bobcats wanted nothing to do with Augustine. Green has shown ability but no willingness to be anything more than a jump shooter and a dunker. Paul George has tons of ability but mentally is way too passive to ever be a star player. In the Hawks game when the team needed someone to step up nobody did because there is NO star on this team. And Vogel deserves some blame. His offense is terrible. The last play in the Hawks game was pathetic. Pass the ball around the 3-point line until time runs out and throw up an airball. I am sick and tired of all the talk coming from the Pacers and Vogel in particular. It reminds me of the Jermaine O'Neal days. Big talk and can't back it up.

Assuming he Bobcats front office was not lying , their GM said that they did extened a 4 year offer to Augustine and t was MORE than the Pacers signed him for (annually) . Augustine just wanted out of Charloette and to play for an up and coming playoff team

flox
11-09-2012, 05:43 PM
If you want to talk mistakes, talk about wasting amnesty on an expiring Posey. Could have been used on Pendergraph or Jones or whoever else it was that cost us DC for nothing.

While you are right that we could have amnestied Jones, we could not have used the amnesty on Pendergraph, as Pendergraph was signed after the new CBA was ratified, therefore, he is ineligilble to be amnestied.

Really, Jones was probably the only player left on this roster that we would have used it on, since we weren't using it on Granger, or Hibbert/Hansborough/George rookie deals, or Stephensons cheap deal. There really aren't a lot of contracts actually left that can be amnestied.