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PacersPride
11-08-2012, 02:03 PM
simple poll.

Do you believe Frank Vogel can lead this team to the NBA Finals.

Frank is in his 2nd full season and I love Vogel as much as the next Pacer fan. I will give my opinion on this topic later in the thread. But the question is simple.

Does Vogel give this team the best chance to advance to the ECF and NBA Finals.

Is Frank Vogel the best coach for this team.

Jessen
11-08-2012, 02:16 PM
It's too soon too tell, but early indications aren't encouraging.

joew8302
11-08-2012, 02:17 PM
Only 1 of these choices was even somewhat positive for Vogel.

My question to those of you who want to tear him apart right now is who should get the credit for last year? Is Danny Granger an absolute superstar who this team can not do without? Was our bench tremendous and we just downgraded? Or did Vogel just go to sleep one night and forget how to win games?

Frank is a good coach, not great, but good. Look at the turnound the pacers have made since replacing Obrien with Vogel. The record speaks for itself. Right now coaching can't overcome terrible ballhandeling, passing and shooting.

Kid Minneapolis
11-08-2012, 02:32 PM
He's also young and not very experienced and therefore, might be prone to lulls like this and should be expected to grow as a coach over time, so making judgements after a slow start that has only spanned 5 games is pretty damn silly.

If people were expecting us to win a Title this year before Granger was injured, I think you are in a pipe dream. I do think Vogel will be an upper echelon coach within 5-10 years. Most people aren't that patient, but he'll only be in his mid-40s by that time.

Eleazar
11-08-2012, 02:42 PM
My question to those of you who want to tear him apart right now is who should get the credit for last year?

If you read the complaints you should notice they are the exact same complaints from last year. It is all about his offensive system, and too much reliance on iso plays.

ECKrueger
11-08-2012, 02:43 PM
He's also young and not very experienced and therefore, might be prone to lulls like this and should be expected to grow as a coach over time, so making judgements after a slow start that has only spanned 5 games is pretty damn silly.

If people were expecting us to win a Title this year before Granger was injured, I think you are in a pipe dream. I do think Vogel will be an upper echelon coach within 5-10 years. Most people aren't that patient, but he'll only be in his mid-40s by that time.

Exactly. I said this somewhere else, but Vogel is not dumb. He knows we can be better and while he may not have all the tools to fix this, I would bet he realizes this is not how we should perform. He will try to fix it and I'm sure we will improve. The question to me is does be have to the ability to get better or not.

We have given Paul years now to get better. I realize Frank is in charge of an entire team, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need time to learn too. In regards to Shaw, if he's so great, why isn't be giving as many tips to Frank as possible? I do think Shaw is good, but I don't think he would do a much better job than Frank currently. Basically, I dot think all the blame is on the coach.

Really?
11-08-2012, 02:46 PM
He may not be the best but I do believe he is capable, he is a young coach who is growing in experience right along with the team. I almost don't blame him that we could only hit one shot in the last 5 minutes of the game yesterday. I will say I thought we should have ran some type of screen to get a guy an open 3.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 02:55 PM
Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means? either way I think the blame should go to the front office for not giving Vogel the right pieces to make it work, they knew they needed a go to scorer and didn't get one, they knew they needed a rebounder/defender and didn't get one, if you look at the Pacers signings other than Roy and Hill(to be evaluated) they signed the equivalent of Travis Diener, Kareem Rush and Solomon Jones, the amazing part is that they did it by using the rest of cap space they had and not only that but they gave long term deals to two of them.

CJ Jones
11-08-2012, 03:01 PM
A good coach draws up plays to get his guys open looks. The game ending plays Frank has drawn up since he's been here haven't worked. That's not even taking into consideration the rest of his offense. He'd be a great bench coach, but I'm doubting his ability to lead a team.

IndyJones
11-08-2012, 03:14 PM
It is probably easier to draw up successful plays when you have players who are capable of getting open/getting the ball to open players.

naptownmenace
11-08-2012, 03:18 PM
Colin Cowherd had a great comment on his show about why fans turn on coaches so fast (yeah I can't believe I'm quoting him either). He said something to the effect that, fans turn on a coach and want him run out of town because they think that if a team isn't winning it's got to be the coaches fault. Firing the coach still leaves them with hope for their team and season. Turning on the players and realizing that they don't have good enough players leaves the fans without hope.

He also made the point that fans usually turn on a coach way before the players do.

CJ Jones
11-08-2012, 03:22 PM
It is probably easier to draw up successful plays when you have players who are capable of getting open/getting the ball to open players.

This has gone on now for over a year. The players deserve blame, but in the end it falls on Franks shoulders. Fair or unfair, that's the way it goes.

Sparhawk
11-08-2012, 03:27 PM
I just don't think he's an Xs and Os type of coach. Meaning constructing an offensive and defensive scheme that works, and utilizes our guys strengths. Maybe it's cause he learned too much from JOB and took away a lot of his learnings.

He's a great motivator, he's a great player manager, but you need to be more than that to coach in the NBA.

I honestly don't know what Shaw brings to the table. What's his part in all this? I don't know, so I can't really comment.

What I do know is that we don't seem to have an offensive scheme. In a pg league now, the Pacers system seems to absolutely destroy pgs value. Look at DC. Played well for NO. Sucked in Indiana. Playing very well for Dallas. DJ is a decent player. He may not be starter material like he was with the Bobcats, but you'd think he'd be one of the better backup pgs. So far you'd think we signed some DLeague scrub.

Pacers still have trouble with pick n rolls on defense. They still can't set proper picks/screens.

All this comes down to coaching and execution. I love Vogel, but I really think he's more of an assistant coach right now.

But who else is their? One of the Van Gundy's? There might not be a better option.

Sparhawk
11-08-2012, 03:30 PM
It could also be that the Pacers just don't have players with good BBIQs.

You can filll a team with nice guys that the community would respect, but if they are low IQs and can't execute out there, then no coach can fix that.

ChicagoJ
11-08-2012, 03:30 PM
I'm not convinced Vogel is the long-term answer, never have been. I'm also not ready to give up on him. I'm hoping, though, that Brian Shaw gets a job somewhere else this next offseason so that he's out of the picture. Let somebody else deal with him.

I've got somebody different that I want in here after Shaw and Vogel are gone.

I don't have as much of a problem with Vogel's x's and o's as the rest of you. I also didn't have a problem with Carlisle's x's and o's even when I wanted Rick to be run out of town.

I don't feel like Frank has lost control of the team. But I'm not sure how high Frank's ceiling is right now or over the next couple of years. To me, this was a bigger concern two years ago when our team had no mental toughness. Having West and Hill take over the leader's role has made me less concerned about Frank's lack of experience on the hotseat.

BRushWithDeath
11-08-2012, 03:36 PM
I was against giving Vogel the full time job originally and haven't seen much in the last year and 5 games to indicate my original assessment was incorrect but a hybrid of Red Auerbach and Phil Jackson couldn't get this team to the Finals.

RWB
11-08-2012, 03:42 PM
I don't know but sure seems like Hibbert hasn't been running through any walls for Frank lately.

duke dynamite
11-08-2012, 03:43 PM
Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers

Sparhawk
11-08-2012, 03:49 PM
Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers

I will admit that Spoelestra seems to have the players buying in to sharing the ball. They are destroying teams.

BillS
11-08-2012, 03:51 PM
I said "not sure" because, as many problems as I have with Frank right now, it's just too early to make a final judgement. No plan survives contact with the enemy, let's give him more than a week to adjust this one.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 04:00 PM
Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers


I usually compare Brooks from OKC with Vogel, they to me are good cheerleaders but not so good X's and O's coaches, I guess my point is that Brooks had a team with 3 elite players and he didn't win the championship, Brooks and Vogel also fall in love with one or two players in their teams and don't stop using them even if those players are hurting the team.

You can have elite players but if you don't have a good coach, that coach can hinder your ability to win a championship, example: Brooks.

joew8302
11-08-2012, 04:01 PM
If you read the complaints you should notice they are the exact same complaints from last year. It is all about his offensive system, and too much reliance on iso plays.

So apparently we had players extremely talented to win as many games as we did despite the lack of an offensive system, yet these same guys apparently got worse or forgot how to win the games we won last year. Makes sense.

PacersPride
11-08-2012, 04:29 PM
okay so a few points here i want to make after reading comments:

1) i feel like the Pacers are in the same boat the hoosiers were in a few years ago. Mike Davis basically stepped in for Knight and led that team to the Final Four so immediately he was given every chance to succeed. Vogel took over for a coach that probably 95% of this board wanted run out of town and he did well.

last year not having a training camp was an accetable excuse. this season it will be not having Granger.

2) how many coaches go from assisting the assistant coach to the head coach position and succeed. i like Vogel but lets be real here. it takes time to become a good coach in this league and right now Vogel needs to be groomed further as an assistant coach.

3) i want to rephrase this question a little bit to give a different perspective. do the Pacers have enough talent to advance to the ECF or NBA Finals.?

Hill (strong player w/ championship experience), West (all-star), Granger (all-star), Hibbert (all-star).

* outside of NY, Brooklyn, Miami, Lakers, SA, OKC, is there any other team in the NBA with more talent in its starting 5.



If this team has the talent to become an ECF finalist is Vogel a coach who can take them the next level up.

personally, i dont think Vogel is a guy that can take this team to the next level. Vogel will become a good coach one day but right now we need someone with more nba experience.

I like Shaw cause i have heard alot of great things about him and he played in the NBA and today those are the type of coaches that seem to really succeed alas a Doc Rivers.

We need a coach who can get the most out of this young team (Hibbert, Paul George, Stephenson, etc).

Since86
11-08-2012, 04:34 PM
These Mike Davis comparisons gotta go. Davis took over a good IU team. Vogel took over a crap Pacers team. The obvious major difference.

Eleazar
11-08-2012, 04:42 PM
So apparently we had players extremely talented to win as many games as we did despite the lack of an offensive system, yet these same guys apparently got worse or forgot how to win the games we won last year. Makes sense.

That is a nice theory you came up there, good thing I didn't come up with it because it is pure ****.

Vogel had an offensive scheme last year that very few people were satisfied with last year. It is a scheme designed for people to beat their man either one v one or in a two man game. It wasn't an offense that really got more than two people involved at any single time. It was a big reason why we struggled to get open shots. This year we have the exact same offense that is easy to defend. Again the players are having to overcome the offense to win games. The difference between last year and this year, we have no Granger and we came out of the gates slow. Nothing I would worry about. Just we would look a lot better if we had a scheme that helped the players instead of relying on the players to do everything by themselves.

PacersPride
11-08-2012, 05:01 PM
These Mike Davis comparisons gotta go. Davis took over a good IU team. Vogel took over a crap Pacers team. The obvious major difference.

it wasnt that great of an IU team. from what i remember they got pretty lucky in who they played on the way to the final 4. kinda like the Pacers last year in playing a D12 less Magic squad.

the comparision is not based on team talent but that Davis was in an interim role who far exceeded expectations and therefore was given additional time to succeed when in all reality he was not the best coach for the team.

gummy
11-08-2012, 05:05 PM
Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means?

I think it means he tried to implement a system that the guys have shown they can't run successfully in a game situation. They aren't making crisp cuts, they aren't making good passes. They aren't setting consistently good screens. We all know (well, maybe not all, but those of us who followed off-season coverage closely) that they worked on at least one of those things - screening drills. Vogel talked about how he wanted them to set good, hard screens. Tyler has shown some improvement in that area, but it's not consistent. Vogel cannot go out there and set the screen his damn self. The best he can do is keep reinforcing what he wants and putting them through the drills that will make it more likely that they'll form the habits he wants.

The idea that we need to simplify the offense is really not a good sign re: our basketball IQ as a team, that's for sure.

I do think this is more on the players than it is on Frank. But I still voted I'm not sure, because I need to see how Coach responds to what is happening now.

Pacergeek
11-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Not sure its Vogel's fault the FO downgraded our overall talent

Sparhawk
11-08-2012, 05:15 PM
Doesn't help that we still cannot set proper screens/picks.

If it's not the coach, I'm going to say that our BBIQ is rather low.

Either way, I expect us to improve, but by how much, I don't know. Other teams really improved their roster. Pacers played well above reality due to injuries that plagued other teams. Looks like instead of coming back down to earth, the Pacers are experiencing a huge crash down to earth.

Sparhawk
11-08-2012, 05:18 PM
Not sure its Vogel's fault the FO downgraded our overall talent

I don't agree. Ian is much better than a 6'8 PF playing C. Ian will be fine. Same with Green.

DJ is a definite downgrade. A huuuuuge downgrade. Still don't think Hans is playing as well as some of you think. Still can't hit a shot and still can't rebound.

Sandman21
11-08-2012, 05:40 PM
it wasnt that great of an IU team. from what i remember they got pretty lucky in who they played on the way to the final 4. kinda like the Pacers last year in playing a D12 less Magic squad.
I'm not the biggest Davis supporter out there, but any team that comes back from 17 down against a STACKED Duke squad ranked #1 in the country is not "lucky".

Justin Tyme
11-08-2012, 05:56 PM
Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means? either way I think the blame should go to the front office for not giving Vogel the right pieces to make it work, they knew they needed a go to scorer and didn't get one, they knew they needed a rebounder/defender and didn't get one, if you look at the Pacers signings other than Roy and Hill(to be evaluated) they signed the equivalent of Travis Diener, Kareem Rush and Solomon Jones, the amazing part is that they did it by using the rest of cap space they had and not only that but they gave long term deals to two of them.


BUT Walsh knows what he's doing. That's why he left Bird with a mess when he left. I was totally against Walsh being brought back, voiced my opinion strongly about it. I haven't changed my mind either about Walsh being in charge, just trying to be patient and watch what happens. I just hope when Walsh finally leaves the Pacers that his decisions don't cause the Pacers problems for years to come...... like last time.

Peck
11-08-2012, 05:57 PM
I don't like the options. I want a choice that says with the right players he certainly could lead them to a title.

PacersPride
11-08-2012, 06:23 PM
I don't like the options. I want a choice that says with the right players he certainly could lead them to a title.

with the right players even Eric Spolstera can lead a team to the NBA finals. difference b/t miami and indiana is we do not have the ability to attact those players whereas the right coach is a little more of a realistic possibility.

i like Frank as much you all do.. but i believe this team has the talent. we just dont have a coach like the Bulls do.

Peck
11-08-2012, 06:31 PM
with the right players even Eric Spolstera can lead a team to the NBA finals. difference b/t miami and indiana is we do not have the ability to attact those players whereas the right coach is a little more of a realistic possibility.

i like Frank as much you all do.. but i believe this team has the talent. we just dont have a coach like the Bulls do.

I'll just agree to disagree then.

I don't think the talent (with Danny missing) is there for any real significant championship hopes. If Danny was here we still wouldn't win a title but we would be in the conversation.

But I respect your opinion of saying the talent is there to be better than what we currently are, which I would agree with that point.

Trophy
11-08-2012, 06:35 PM
I've been pleased with Vogel and how his coaching has translated to this team's style of play. The fact that he was a strong candidate for COTY says something.

Currently, I have no problem with him being the coach. There's been some times where the offense and drawn up plays look like a mess, but for the most part, he's done well coaching a team with no so called "superstars".

A coach can only do so much, but I believe he can get this team to the ECF with everyone healthy and at their best.

imawhat
11-08-2012, 06:37 PM
Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers

? Doc Rivers is one of the best coaches in the game.

SIR-LANCE-ALOT
11-08-2012, 07:27 PM
Coach Vogel isnt the greatest x and O coach, his offense is too predictable, throw down low and pretty much it, the new bobcats coach out coached him, he doubled n tripled low post n vogel never adjusted, offense looked lost, last year coach of heat figured out vogel style n shut us down the rest of that series, and why are teams getting so many steals from us by swatting at the ball while its low? Our defense isnt doing the same, come on vogel!!!

Sookie
11-08-2012, 08:40 PM
We're talking about a guy who was a legitimate contender for COY last season. Who has only been a coach for 1 and 1/2 seasons. Who doesn't have his best player. And it's only 5 games into the season. (And we've won two of them.) Come on guys.

Bottom line is, I don't think Vogel coaches a pretty offense (although last season it was efficient.) And I don't think we have the players to run a pretty offense. (We don't even have a starting point guard.) I've noticed a little bit of improvement from PG with moving without the basketball. And Hill does. (But he doesn't do it well.) No one moves, no one sets good screens, and the ball gets stuck, and if that's what the players on the team do, there's nothing a coach can do to make the offense look prettier.

Now, if we can make some of our outside shots, the inside/outside game can be efficient. But someone needs to step up there, because that was Danny Granger's job.

PacersPride
11-08-2012, 09:20 PM
We're talking about a guy who was a legitimate contender for COY last season. Who has only been a coach for 1 and 1/2 seasons. Who doesn't have his best player. And it's only 5 games into the season. (And we've won two of them.) Come on guys.

Bottom line is, I don't think Vogel coaches a pretty offense (although last season it was efficient.) And I don't think we have the players to run a pretty offense. (We don't even have a starting point guard.) I've noticed a little bit of improvement from PG with moving without the basketball. And Hill does. (But he doesn't do it well.) No one moves, no one sets good screens, and the ball gets stuck, and if that's what the players on the team do, there's nothing a coach can do to make the offense look prettier.

Now, if we can make some of our outside shots, the inside/outside game can be efficient. But someone needs to step up there, because that was Danny Granger's job.

The COY stuff is a not relevant imo. how many coaches in the last ten seasons have won COY and been let go the following season. Sam Mitchell comes to mind and I believe there are others (Carlisle as well i believe). True Vogel has been coach for only 1.5 seasons. If you can spin that as a positive and buy it then go for it.

I would love to eat crow on this one. im not even saying Vogel is a bad coach. I guess im just skipping past the trial phase were giving Vogel because we all are still very satisfied with anyone other than a coach who constructs on offense predicated on a PF shooting 3's.

Are the Pacers a team that can win a championship.. i think were gettting there. im looking at the bigger picture than just 5 games. to beat the best were gonna need the best and since we probably will not have the best talent on the floor in an NBA Finals were going to have to out-coach the opponent.

I believe Vogel is a good coach for a team rebuilding. Pacers are a team competing now. we have our core intact and we need to MAX it to the fullest.

it was only when Larry Bird and Carlisle took the reigns did this team make a finals appearance. we got the most out of Smits during that era of Pacers basketball.

to get the most out of Paul George, Roy Hibbert and the remaining talent we need a veteran well seasoned coach. Jerry Sloan comes to mind immediately although im not sure if he willing to come back but i use him as an example.

I really like Vogel, but im gonna be blunt. I would prefer Shaw as the HC and Vogel the assistant.

bottom line:

Vogel/Shaw need to fix this offense and fast without Danny Granger. Its not going to be easy for a coach with 1.5 years experience.

Go Pacers!

McKeyFan
11-08-2012, 09:20 PM
We're talking about a guy who was a legitimate contender for COY last season. Who has only been a coach for 1 and 1/2 seasons. Who doesn't have his best player. And it's only 5 games into the season. (And we've won two of them.) Come on guys.
Agree.



Bottom line is, I don't think Vogel coaches a pretty offense (although last season it was efficient.) And I don't think we have the players to run a pretty offense. Agree.



No one moves, no one sets good screens, and the ball gets stuck, and if that's what the players on the team do, there's nothing a coach can do to make the offense look prettier.
Disagree. I think Vogel can teach these guys how to move, cut, and where to move and cut. And he can demand they do it.

Young
11-08-2012, 10:02 PM
I'm not convinced Vogel is the long-term answer, never have been. I'm also not ready to give up on him. I'm hoping, though, that Brian Shaw gets a job somewhere else this next offseason so that he's out of the picture. Let somebody else deal with him.

I've got somebody different that I want in here after Shaw and Vogel are gone.

I don't have as much of a problem with Vogel's x's and o's as the rest of you. I also didn't have a problem with Carlisle's x's and o's even when I wanted Rick to be run out of town.

I don't feel like Frank has lost control of the team. But I'm not sure how high Frank's ceiling is right now or over the next couple of years. To me, this was a bigger concern two years ago when our team had no mental toughness. Having West and Hill take over the leader's role has made me less concerned about Frank's lack of experience on the hotseat.

I'm not trying to indicate that Vogel should go or that Shaw should replace him. I am just genuinely curious to know why you hope Brian Shaw leaves and/or think he would be a bad choice to be this team's head coach? Who would you like to see coach this team after Vogel?

BlueNGold
11-08-2012, 10:27 PM
Man, people have short memories and a quick trigger.

Vogel leads the Pacers to their first .500+ season in years and into the playoffs the last two seasons. He loses his best offensive player and is one game under .500 after 5 games into the season. Now people want him out. He's no Rick Carlisle at the moment, but the players love him and with more experience we may have a great coach. If anything, he deserves at least another year without this talk.

Eleazar
11-08-2012, 11:00 PM
Man, people have short memories and a quick trigger.

Vogel leads the Pacers to their first .500+ season in years and into the playoffs the last two seasons. He loses his best offensive player and is one game under .500 after 5 games into the season. Now people want him out. He's no Rick Carlisle at the moment, but the players love him and with more experience we may have a great coach. If anything, he deserves at least another year without this talk.

THis has nothing to do with a short memory as none of the complaints are new, just people aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt anymore.

PacersPride
11-08-2012, 11:06 PM
Man, people have short memories and a quick trigger.

Vogel leads the Pacers to their first .500+ season in years and into the playoffs the last two seasons. He loses his best offensive player and is one game under .500 after 5 games into the season. Now people want him out. He's no Rick Carlisle at the moment, but the players love him and with more experience we may have a great coach. If anything, he deserves at least another year without this talk.

I agree, Vogel deserves a chance with a full training camp. Unfortunately, he will not have Granger for awhile. If he can coach this team up to a 5th seed or better by All-star break i think you can t really find criticsm.

im concerned with our younger players and giving them the best coaching possible. thats certainly no slight on Coach Vogel. I think he has a bright future.

Trophy
11-08-2012, 11:27 PM
I don't know but sure seems like Hibbert hasn't been running through any walls for Frank lately.

What do you want him to do? Obviously he loves playing for Vogel, but he's not going to keep talking about how great he is like when he first took over nearly 2 years ago. People know who Vogel is now.

Trophy
11-08-2012, 11:33 PM
Vogel is only going to get better as a head coach. The guy works tirelessly on getting his team better.

Heck, he's a very good coach now. Finishing third to be COTY isn't some fluke.

He's not perfect as no coach is or anyone is. He gets out coached here and there as does every coach on some nights.

In the end, we win as a team and we lose as a team.

Some people really need to get a hold of themselves. Slow starts happen to even the best teams in all sports.

gummy
11-08-2012, 11:37 PM
What do you want him to do? Obviously he loves playing for Vogel, but he's not going to keep talking about how great he is like when he first took over nearly 2 years ago. People know who Vogel is now.

I think he was trying to imply that Hibbert is no longer playing with the fire he sometimes displayed earlier under Vogel's direction - that the relationship isn't motivating him the way it used to.

I think it's too early to say that. Maybe Roy is just doing his "looks great offensively, goes into a slump," thing in reverse this year. ;)

Trophy
11-08-2012, 11:45 PM
I think he was trying to imply that Hibbert is no longer playing with the fire he sometimes displayed earlier under Vogel's direction - that the relationship isn't motivating him the way it used to.

I think it's too early to say that. Maybe Roy is just doing his "looks great offensively, goes into a slump," thing in reverse this year. ;)

It's definitely on Roy not Vogel. Roy's off to a slow start and is still getting adjusted to the new season. He should brush off the cobwebs soon.

Roy's still plenty motivated under Vogel. Maybe not like the honeymoon period when he first took over, but simply a coach and player with good chemistry relationship.

ChicagoJ
11-09-2012, 12:23 AM
I'm not trying to indicate that Vogel should go or that Shaw should replace him. I am just genuinely curious to know why you hope Brian Shaw leaves and/or think he would be a bad choice to be this team's head coach? Who would you like to see coach this team after Vogel?

I think Shaw is overhyped because of the Phil Jackson factor. Jackson's assistants were great assistants, but not really good HCs. I'm not inclined to see Shaw any differently until he proves otherwise, preferably someplace else.

There's another somewhat young (by coaching standards) former NBA player that has been putting in his time and dues as an assistant (in other words, not a Mark Jackson prima donna type) and has been in the running for several HC positions over the past couple of seasons. He's a film junkie and has shown to be a solid x-and-o assistant. He also seems to relate well to players, even troubled ones. Those that have paid attention to me at PD over the past eight years know *exactly* who I'm talking about.

But if its another year away, that's fine. I'm neither worried about Vogel nor convinced he's a long-term solution. He's been a breath of fresh air when we needed one, and those types of coaches do have value at a particular stage of a team's development.

Sollozzo
11-09-2012, 12:51 AM
There's another somewhat young (by coaching standards) former NBA player that has been putting in his time and dues as an assistant (in other words, not a Mark Jackson prima donna type) and has been in the running for several HC positions over the past couple of seasons. He's a film junkie and has shown to be a solid x-and-o assistant. He also seems to relate well to players, even troubled ones. Those that have paid attention to me at PD over the past eight years know *exactly* who I'm talking about.




http://static.bkref.com/images/players/persoch01.jpg

Eleazar
11-09-2012, 01:19 AM
I think Shaw is overhyped because of the Phil Jackson factor. Jackson's assistants were great assistants, but not really good HCs. I'm not inclined to see Shaw any differently until he proves otherwise, preferably someplace else.

There's another somewhat young (by coaching standards) former NBA player that has been putting in his time and dues as an assistant (in other words, not a Mark Jackson prima donna type) and has been in the running for several HC positions over the past couple of seasons. He's a film junkie and has shown to be a solid x-and-o assistant. He also seems to relate well to players, even troubled ones. Those that have paid attention to me at PD over the past eight years know *exactly* who I'm talking about.

But if its another year away, that's fine. I'm neither worried about Vogel nor convinced he's a long-term solution. He's been a breath of fresh air when we needed one, and those types of coaches do have value at a particular stage of a team's development.

Ewing? I really have no idea who, I just know his name has been mentioned before.

vnzla81
11-09-2012, 01:21 AM
Chuck Person, ChicagoJ likes him.

Sookie
11-09-2012, 01:34 AM
Disagree. I think Vogel can teach these guys how to move, cut, and where to move and cut. And he can demand they do it.

He spent the summer trying to teach them to set screens. And the only person who is marginally (and I do mean marginally) improved is Hans.

Coaches can teach that stuff. But it's sad that an NBA coach has to teach fundamentals. And I think players are good or bad at it, and we happen to have a team full of players that are bad at moving the ball, moving without the ball, and screening. (Except for Hill with the first two.)

wintermute
11-09-2012, 02:47 AM
Chuck Person, ChicagoJ likes him.

Can't be Rifleman*, he's not a film guy nor an x-and-o guy. Is it Mike Budenholzer? Can't remember.

As to Vogel - I thought the Pacers did the right thing by checking out other coaching options before re-upping him last year. That said, now that they've committed to him, it's way too early to punt. Vogel is a young coach, both in years and experience. In a lot of ways, he's still finding his path. Rough patches like this are to be expected.

I think the higher expectations this year may be getting to Vogel. He is exhibiting some classic coach-under-pressure behavior. Leaning on his starters/vets too long, throwing out a lot of new lineup combos, etc. Then again, sticking with a set rotation didn't work out so hot last year, did it? And of course Granger being out could throw a spanner in the best-laid plans.

I'd like to say that I'm confident Vogel can turn it around, but I'm not. I sure think he deserves a chance to do so though. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of replacing him until after the season at least.

Some blame has to go to the FO as well. When we signed Mahinmi and Green, I said at the time that while they did well in limited minutes, it was asking a lot to expect them to take a major rotation role right away. Right now I think we're seeing the growing pains as Mahinmi and Green adjust to far larger roles than what they were used to. I'm enormously disappointed with Augustin though - I really thought he'd have a bigger (positive) impact.

* EDIT: So I guess I don't follow Jay's posts that well :blush:, a quick search shows that Chuck Person is the guy he's referring to

ECKrueger
11-09-2012, 04:11 AM
I wonder how much could be fixed by simply staggering the bench substitutions a little?

Heisenberg
11-09-2012, 04:24 AM
I adore Frank, genuinely do. He's exactly what the players, franchise, and fanbase needed after JOB. It sounds far worse than I mean it, but the guy's an ultimate towel waver. He's more than optimistic, he's a fanboy. I think he's gotten in over his head. I'm not going to hang it all on him because I think our talent's been overrated for a good while now, but there have got to be better schematic coaches.

There's no way Frank could "step down" back into an assistant role, but it'd be for the best. But if there's a guy he'd probably do it for it's Jerry Sloan. And Sloan's a great fit.

edit: and in absolutely no way am I saying don't give Frank the chance to play out the year and see what happens. but we end up at 40ish wins or something, how you feeling about coming back to Indiana Sloan?

immortality
11-09-2012, 06:08 AM
Na, I don't mind Vogel, the Pacers offense is just really boring to watch right now. Mostly it's George Hill dribbling :/

Sparhawk
11-09-2012, 08:16 AM
I adore Frank, genuinely do. He's exactly what the players, franchise, and fanbase needed after JOB. It sounds far worse than I mean it, but the guy's an ultimate towel waver. He's more than optimistic, he's a fanboy. I think he's gotten in over his head. I'm not going to hang it all on him because I think our talent's been overrated for a good while now, but there have got to be better schematic coaches.

There's no way Frank could "step down" back into an assistant role, but it'd be for the best. But if there's a guy he'd probably do it for it's Jerry Sloan. And Sloan's a great fit.

edit: and in absolutely no way am I saying don't give Frank the chance to play out the year and see what happens. but we end up at 40ish wins or something, how you feeling about coming back to Indiana Sloan?

We definitely have a team that fits right up Sloan's alley too. I really like Frank, but I think he should be an assistant coach, not a head coach.

PacersPride
11-09-2012, 11:43 AM
in some ways i see this as similar to the manning situation. everybody loved 18 but bottom line is this is a business and the owner has to do what is ultimately in the best interests of the Franchise.

we cannot go back to the Fieldhouse only selling out half the arena or were not going to have a team before you know it. i like Frank. i liked 18.. would love to have seen him come back, but ultimately it was best for both the Colts and Manning to part ways.

i think Frank as ive said below has a bright future. he would be perfect for a rebuilding team or a team that is not really needing a coach.. (ie a Miami, or the pacers from 2000; just a vet group). the Pacers are kinda right there in the middle.


the young guys like Hibbert and George need the best coaching the Pacers can give them. I love Franks optimism and hard work but the lack of experience concerns me. we have the right this ship soon.

im not even sure Shaw is the answer, i just want someone who has more credentials on his resume. Frank is a young coach.. he will get a shot as an assistant somwhere i believe.

ChicagoJ
11-09-2012, 12:09 PM
http://static.bkref.com/images/players/persoch01.jpg

No... I don't think the little Red-X box has much of a coaching career left in front of him.

:D

ChicagoJ
11-09-2012, 12:16 PM
Ewing? I really have no idea who, I just know his name has been mentioned before.


I wouldn't mind Ewing on staff. Outside of Bill Russell, not many C's have been great head coaches. As players, they don't really have to see the whole floor or everything that's going on, they just have to dominate the middle. For former players, that doesn't translate as well to the HC spot but can make for a nice assistant. Ewing could be an exception to that rule, but I'd prefer to use him a different way if I were putting together the next coaching staff, whenever that might be.

Pacer Fan
11-09-2012, 01:07 PM
Maybe Ewing should be an assistant coach to get Hibbert's and Mahimni's skills up and get their heads in the game!

I can't vote on this quite yet, I really like Frank, My heart says ride him for the year and hope he proves that he can be a head caoch in this league, but my head says how quick can we get another head coach. I'm so torn, I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.

Major Cold
11-09-2012, 03:31 PM
The problems that Vogel has are not new. These are issues that had me hesitate last summer.

joew8302
11-09-2012, 03:54 PM
That is a nice theory you came up there, good thing I didn't come up with it because it is pure ****.

Vogel had an offensive scheme last year that very few people were satisfied with last year. It is a scheme designed for people to beat their man either one v one or in a two man game. It wasn't an offense that really got more than two people involved at any single time. It was a big reason why we struggled to get open shots. This year we have the exact same offense that is easy to defend. Again the players are having to overcome the offense to win games. The difference between last year and this year, we have no Granger and we came out of the gates slow. Nothing I would worry about. Just we would look a lot better if we had a scheme that helped the players instead of relying on the players to do everything by themselves.

So the same core group that overcame Vogel's terrible offensive scheme last year and had a great record all of the sudden isn't talented enough to do so. Like I said, either Granger is an MVP canidadte with his worth to this team or the same players that excelled last year despite this "terrible system" have forgotton how to tearly on this season.

Eleazar
11-09-2012, 05:35 PM
So the same core group that overcame Vogel's terrible offensive scheme last year and had a great record all of the sudden isn't talented enough to do so. Like I said, either Granger is an MVP canidadte with his worth to this team or the same players that excelled last year despite this "terrible system" have forgotton how to tearly on this season.

Or like I said they just started slow. It happens, not everyone starts out guns blazing.

Cousy47
11-09-2012, 05:45 PM
I'll bet we would have the top Coaches in the league clambering to come here if we were to fire our 3rd coach in a row, before their contract was completed! There are times when firing a choach and bringing in a new one will turn a team around. Oh yeah, that's what Vogel did. If you have a very talented group of players who will adjust and change their role on a team, and do anything asked of them to win, then who the coach is doesn't make that much difference. IMO, firing RC because he "lost" that group of misfits set this franchise back years, and firing more coaches won't help the teams position. Maybe Frank needs to be let go. Or maybe he needs better assisants or better players?

OlBlu
11-09-2012, 06:09 PM
I'll bet we would have the top Coaches in the league clambering to come here if we were to fire our 3rd coach in a row, before their contract was completed! There are times when firing a choach and bringing in a new one will turn a team around. Oh yeah, that's what Vogel did. If you have a very talented group of players who will adjust and change their role on a team, and do anything asked of them to win, then who the coach is doesn't make that much difference. IMO, firing RC because he "lost" that group of misfits set this franchise back years, and firing more coaches won't help the teams position. Maybe Frank needs to be let go. Or maybe he needs better assisants or better players?

It would be very difficult for the Pacers to get a top coach because they are a small market team with no superstars and not much hope of getting one. A hot assistant is about the best one could hope for.....:cool: ...

PacersPride
11-09-2012, 08:05 PM
no way do i want to see Vogel let go this season. Coach Frank Vogel deserves a fair chance, its very misfortunate for us to lose Granger 3 mos.

*by the way, didnt Granger realize this sooner in the offseason with the knee. Colin Cowherd was talking about that the other day where nba players like to enjoy their summer than deal with the medical isssues in preseason. who knows.



Coach Vogel definitely deserves a fair chance. but the offense has not looked good. reading the Espn article about whats wrong w the Pacers has me now furthermore questioning the FO. I will not go there, but i supported Bird and still think it sucks he left.

intersting now that Mike Brown got fired who i thought pacers would have pursued. i like Shaw. Magic Johnson was on Espn talkking about Shaw as the next best thing to Phil Jackson.

McKeyFan
11-09-2012, 08:07 PM
Vogel deserves a year of patience from management.

He does not deserve a year of non-criticism from Pacers Digest, nor even a month. Nobody gets that.

BlueNGold
11-09-2012, 11:13 PM
Vogel deserves a year of patience from management.

He does not deserve a year of non-criticism from Pacers Digest, nor even a month. Nobody gets that.

I agree. I really do. But I find it amazing that Vogel takes this team that had been sinking with Jim...took them to the playoffs...then a great regular season record...and into the second round the next year. Without a superstar. Now he doesn't have Danny Granger and he's going through a rough patch and people think he needs to be an assistant now.

Honestly, he deserves more respect. You can disagree with his methods, but the young man has delivered. He's delivered a lot more than that guy with white bushy sideburns after 4 long years...

ChicagoJ
11-09-2012, 11:43 PM
Barkley on NBATV right now giving Rifleman some major love and endorsing him to the Lakers new HC. Very mixed feelings.

Derek2k3
11-10-2012, 12:03 AM
After this game, I'd like to change my vote to "in over his head".

I can't help but think many of the issues are due to terrible preparation and coaching. This team has not been prepared for a game yet, hasn't made any quality adjustments.

I'm fairly despondent at this point. Hard to have any faith in these players and this coach.

TOP
11-10-2012, 12:07 AM
I still believe in Vogel.

I blame the front office for this mess.

Quite frankly, being in every single game except the Spurs game is a testament to how good he is given how bad the team is outside the 4 starters from last season. And even then, it's not his fault that Hibbert got paid and decided he'd rather choreograph a stupid dance at the mall. You'd he'd more time in the gym but judging by the way he's played so far, I'm not sure he spent anytime in the gym. 10pts, 4rebs and Love didn't even play. Kevin Love probably would have grabbed 30 boards.

Derek2k3
11-10-2012, 12:15 AM
I still believe in Vogel.

I blame the front office for this mess.

Quite frankly, being in every single game except the Spurs game is a testament to how good he is given how bad the team is outside the 4 starters from last season. And even then, it's not his fault that Hibbert got paid and decided he'd rather choreograph a stupid dance at the mall. You'd he'd more time in the gym but judging by the way he's played so far, I'm not sure he spent anytime in the gym. 10pts, 4rebs and Love didn't even play. Kevin Love probably would have grabbed 30 boards.

He sure has been anything but professional. You can get away with the loveable goofball schtick when things are going well...but when things aren't going well, people will turn on you. He's definitely going to experience that, he's being paid to be a franchise player, and he's performing like a 4th option. But damn if that dance wasn't cool.

EDIT: And I love your avi. Tom Haverford for the win.

Pacer Fan
11-10-2012, 10:52 AM
I have changed my mind after the game last night and what has transpired in LA.

Fire Frank, Promote Shaw and Hire Mike Brown as the assistant if Shaw would want him anyways!

Steagles
11-10-2012, 12:16 PM
I voted Shaw MIGHT be the best coach, because he MIGHT be the best coach for this team. Then again, Vogel might be too. Right now, Vogel is not the clear best coach.

Pacergeek
11-10-2012, 12:28 PM
I want to know the reason for Green getting more minutes than Lance. If Pritchard and Donnie demand this, than I can't blame Vogel.

Eleazar
11-10-2012, 02:29 PM
I don't get the love for Shaw. I doubt anything would improve with him as head coach unless the players have already tuned out Vogel, which does not seem to be the case. Vogel isn't the totalitarian that JOB was.

boombaby1987
11-10-2012, 02:44 PM
I'm amazed by how divided we are.

sportfireman
11-10-2012, 03:12 PM
SSOOOOOOOOOOOO 27% says Vogel should be our coach.... and almost 73% say it shouldn't be Vogel........ not really divided. Most of us don't want Vogel but we don't know what we want, but we know we don't think Vogel is working for us.

I compare Vogel's popularity here with a guy getting a new girlfriend after his last girl dogged him out. The new one is better than the last one so she looks like goooooolllldddd.


Example......old gf.....Jim Obrien :mad: New gf ...... Frank Vogel :) So once you escape the old relationship....most things directly following will be welcomed with open arms. Think about it....:hmm: Honeymoon is now over. Frank's good but we want better.

Eleazar
11-10-2012, 03:24 PM
SSOOOOOOOOOOOO 27% says Vogel should be our coach.... and almost 73% say it shouldn't be Vogel........ not really divided. Most of us don't want Vogel but we don't know what we want, but we know we don't think Vogel is working for us.

I compare Vogel's popularity here with a guy getting a new girlfriend after his last girl dogged him out. The new one is better than the last one so she looks like goooooolllldddd.


Example......old gf.....Jim Obrien :mad: New gf ...... Frank Vogel :) So once you escape the old relationship....most things directly following will be welcomed with open arms. Think about it....:hmm: Honeymoon is now over. Frank's good but we want better.

Don't throw me in with the 73%. I voted not sure, not that I don't want Vogel. Huge difference there.

PUNKJER0916
11-10-2012, 03:27 PM
Vogel is one of the best coaches in the league, and yes he is the best coach for this team.

Kstat
11-10-2012, 03:29 PM
Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers

Both spoelstra and rivers have left their personal stamp on their teams.

Saying they just roll the ball out is ignorant of the jobs they've done so far. Yes, they have elite talent. But that talent plays the way they coach them to play.

gummy
11-10-2012, 03:32 PM
I don't get the love for Shaw. I doubt anything would improve with him as head coach unless the players have already tuned out Vogel, which does not seem to be the case. Vogel isn't the totalitarian that JOB was.

I said something similar in another thread. Brian Shaw is heavily involved in what we are seeing. He is not just another assistant. He is our "associate head coach." Interesting that when Vogel's stock was up many people pointed out that he was being assisted by Brian Shaw, who is awesome. But now that Vogel appears to be stumbling Shaw isn't implicated too? Can't have it both ways, folks.

Sookie
11-10-2012, 03:32 PM
SSOOOOOOOOOOOO 27% says Vogel should be our coach.... and almost 73% say it shouldn't be Vogel........ not really divided. Most of us don't want Vogel but we don't know what we want, but we know we don't think Vogel is working for us.

I compare Vogel's popularity here with a guy getting a new girlfriend after his last girl dogged him out. The new one is better than the last one so she looks like goooooolllldddd.


Example......old gf.....Jim Obrien :mad: New gf ...... Frank Vogel :) So once you escape the old relationship....most things directly following will be welcomed with open arms. Think about it....:hmm: Honeymoon is now over. Frank's good but we want better.

Which is ridiculous. There's no rationality behind it at all. He's a coach everyone loved 6 games ago. He doesn't get more than 6 games to figure it out?

gummy
11-10-2012, 03:34 PM
SSOOOOOOOOOOOO 27% says Vogel should be our coach.... and almost 73% say it shouldn't be Vogel........ not really divided. Most of us don't want Vogel but we don't know what we want, but we know we don't think Vogel is working for us.

I compare Vogel's popularity here with a guy getting a new girlfriend after his last girl dogged him out. The new one is better than the last one so she looks like goooooolllldddd.


Example......old gf.....Jim Obrien :mad: New gf ...... Frank Vogel :) So once you escape the old relationship....most things directly following will be welcomed with open arms. Think about it....:hmm: Honeymoon is now over. Frank's good but we want better.

Your math is wonky. Not sure does NOT equal it shouldn't be Vogel. It means just what it says. Could be yes to Vogel, could be no, but right now it's we don't know and are in watch and see mode.

I'm very unhappy with what I am seeing on the court. I am not sure how much of it is on the players and how much of it is on the coaching staff. I am inclined, based on what I saw and read of our camp (where the coaching staff did work on some of the **** we see going wrong out there) that it's more about the players executing.

Whatever the case, I am definitely not jumping off the Vogel wagon 6 games in. To expand on your analogy - I'm no longer head over heels in love with Frank, but I'm not ready to break-up either. It's just time for counseling. ;)

Sparhawk
11-10-2012, 03:46 PM
I think Vogel just has too much JOB in him. I've not seen any growth in Vogel at all.

While I do agree he deserves more time, how much time is enough? It's really arbitrary. Someone might feel a season, others might feel 10 games. No one is right or wrong, just your own observation.

I've been watching this ****** offense for over 3 years now and I've seriously had enough. It's worth noting that some positions struggle here, but why? It's not merely a coincidence that DC played great in NO and great with Dallas, but looked lost here. Same with DJ, and to a smaller extend Price (other than shooting) and TJ Ford played a decent roll off the bench for the Spurs (am I missing anyone?). I think the only reason Hill is succeeding is cause he's more of a 2guard and can shoot the outside shot. But even still, the number of assists for this team are very low. Also, it's usually 3 guys just stand around watching horrible 2 man show. Still can't set good screens/picks. The offense is clunky and we can barely get Hibbert the ball. Pacers are having such a hard time getting easy buckets. I thought we'd have some quick transition buckets, but it almost seems nonexistent.

The defense has really regressed too. While teams aren't shooting high %'s, I think it's misleading. The Hawks had tons of open looks that they just missed.

The Pacers are like a boat with a hole in it. They try to stop one leak and then another comes up. Nothing ever seems to get fixed for good.

I'm also one of those people that think the Pacers played well out of their league last year. Injuries to other teams really propelled this team. But now, the Pacers can't even beat a Timberwolves team without 4 of it's best players. It's just embarrassing.

What Vogel does so well is staying positive and keeping our guys positive. I think he's a good motivator too. He's a good guy, but that's just not enough. Yeah, management could have done better with their money (And not Mayo - it's already been reported he turned down more money so he could start). I didn't like the DC trade just to get rid of Jones. Green and Ian will honestly be fine. I think DJ won't simply cause our pathetic offense just makes pgs struggle...which then in turns makes others struggle cause they can't get easy looks from our point.

But who else would coach this team? If at some point Vogel gets the boot, the Pacers need to bring in someone with experience like SVG or Sloan (who else is out there?). I'm inclined to say Sloan cause he's known for making pg pretty great. I also think he'd get this team to continue to focus on D while improving the offense. I guess Walsh can make it just like old times and hire Larry Brown *shudders*.

OlBlu
11-10-2012, 04:37 PM
The fans forced Bird's hand and that made him fire JOB when he didn't want to do that. He wanted to finish that season with JOB and then bring in a hot assistant coach the next year. Instead, Vogel go the job in an interim basis but the team came around and that forced Bird to hire Vogel, something he never wanted to do..... The result was already written. Vogel would go into some losing streak and he would be quickly replaced. In this case, I think Shaw gets the job and I think he might have gotten it if Bird had been able to follow his original plan......:cool:

Pacer Fan
11-10-2012, 06:04 PM
Which is ridiculous. There's no rationality behind it at all. He's a coach everyone loved 6 games ago. He doesn't get more than 6 games to figure it out?

This isn't true, I have been complaining about his lack of offense since last season. I can't stand the play calling and his subs. This has been well documented on here. So "everyone" is inaccurate.

wintermute
11-10-2012, 07:21 PM
This isn't true, I have been complaining about his lack of offense since last season. I can't stand the play calling and his subs. This has been well documented on here. So "everyone" is inaccurate.

It may not have been pretty last season, but there's no denying it was effective. As I posted in another topic, Vogel's "smashmouth" offense is built on hitting the offensive glass, getting to the line, and taking care of the ball. We're still good on o-rebs, but turnovers and FTA's have been awful. Have to think that Danny's absence is impacting that quite a bit.

Eleazar
11-11-2012, 01:42 AM
I've not seen any growth in Vogel at all.

On the offensive end I agree, but I think as the season has gone on and he has gotten a better feel for the players he has shown more flexibility in substitutions.

Ownagedood
11-11-2012, 11:45 AM
Where's the option for he's good but the Pacer's aren't near good enough to make the finals anyways?

BlueNGold
11-11-2012, 12:34 PM
The fans forced Bird's hand and that made him fire JOB when he didn't want to do that. He wanted to finish that season with JOB and then bring in a hot assistant coach the next year. Instead, Vogel go the job in an interim basis but the team came around and that forced Bird to hire Vogel, something he never wanted to do..... The result was already written. Vogel would go into some losing streak and he would be quickly replaced. In this case, I think Shaw gets the job and I think he might have gotten it if Bird had been able to follow his original plan......:cool:

You can blame Jim for that. Bird appeared willing to let Jim lose all the games. But rightly so, Bird was not going to allow Jim to attack and blame the players for his own failures.

PacersPride
11-14-2012, 12:36 AM
how long before the granger injury excuse becomes unacceptable.

Pacergeek
11-14-2012, 12:38 AM
how long before the granger injury excuse becomes unacceptable.

We lost to Charlotte and Toronto at home without their best player. The excuse is already unacceptable IMHO

mattie
11-14-2012, 12:45 AM
Vogel was smart for realizing how important it is to get good looks near the basket, and get to the line. However, after having a full offseason, we all thought he'd actually install a system that lead to actual good offense. The PnR, cuts, layups, transition points, the type of things that any good offense has.

Yet he never did that.

On top of that, there has always been some questions I've had about Vogel, that I thought he may figure out, but were major issues.

First off, in the playoffs against the Bulls in two late games he decided to pull Paul George and put DJ on Rose. Just an absolutely inexplicable decision. We of course lost both games when Rose scored with less than a minute in regulation. Seems like not a big deal, but it is important that a coach realizes each and everything he should do to maximize the talent he has.

Next, I was excited when Vogel was smart with limiting minutes during the regular season last year. I thought everyone would be well rested. However, he got to the playoffs and continued with the minutes when his starters should have been playing 40+. That was a brutal mistake that without a doubt led to less wins.

Bring it to this season, and you look at the Pacers offensive system and it is a disaster. ****, last year it was a disaster too but we let it go because we thought Vogel never had a chance to implement his own offensive game plan. That was true. The Pacers weren't the only ones that looked like a disaster on offense last season. Everyone did really. Except the Spurs. Yet this season nothing changed. There is no system. Only dribble down and throw it down low for an isolation. Isolation basketball is HORRIBLE basketball!!

Edit- by the way I think Vogels horrible offense is the sole reason Green has been playing horrible. Green should be getting open outside looks, tons of transition points, and points off of cuts all day long. Our offense doesn't do that though so Green is now a completely ineffective asset.

No one on this team is being used correctly. The offense is an absolute disaster, and the blame should go squarely on Vogels struggles. Now I'm not saying he can't coach either. Because if he had the right people around him it wouldn't matter that X's and O's aren't his thing. However, as the coaching staff stands this is a disaster.

RLeWorm
11-14-2012, 12:48 AM
We need to do what the Lakers did and fire Vogel and make Shaw the HC. He is going to be courted by a lot of teams next season and get's a lot of credibility from other players. We shouldn't miss our chance and make him the HC. Vogel has a horrible offense. Vogel was good when he first took over this team cause of his passion but honeymoon is over.

Hypnotiq
11-14-2012, 12:58 AM
How do we know Shaw is any good tho?

personally i hope we move heaven and earth and get Jerry Sloan here

mattie
11-14-2012, 01:08 AM
How do we know Shaw is any good tho?

personally i hope we move heaven and earth and get Jerry Sloan here

That'd be excellent.

Bird Fan
11-14-2012, 01:09 AM
How do we know Shaw is any good tho?

personally i hope we move heaven and earth and get Jerry Sloan here

Well considering he was the protege of one of the best coaches in history...

mattie
11-14-2012, 01:14 AM
Well considering he was the protege of one of the best coaches in history...

The problem is you'd think he'd help Vogel fix things quickly. Considering none of that is happening you wonder if Brian Shaw doesn't have it figured out either.

aamcguy
11-14-2012, 02:09 AM
I don't think Shaw would do much better for us. He's in Vogel's ear all the time already, it seems like it would be a lateral change. The only difference being that he would be expected to change the offense.

Bball
11-14-2012, 02:44 AM
The fans forced Bird's hand and that made him fire JOB when he didn't want to do that. He wanted to finish that season with JOB and then bring in a hot assistant coach the next year. Instead, Vogel go the job in an interim basis but the team came around and that forced Bird to hire Vogel, something he never wanted to do..... The result was already written. Vogel would go into some losing streak and he would be quickly replaced. In this case, I think Shaw gets the job and I think he might have gotten it if Bird had been able to follow his original plan......:cool:


I agree with this to a point but the problem is that JOB should never have been back for that season anyway. I suppose there's always the chance Bird had his eyes on someone that wouldn't be available for one more season for some reason, but JOB was a firing waiting to happen by the start of his final season. His expiration date was WAY past time.

So Bird put himself into the position to lose some control of the coaching situation if JOB's season went downhill enough he HAD to be fired (which would've been a miracle had it went any other way by that point), and then if the interim coach did well enough to gain support of players and fans it would be hard to not retain him. And that is exactly what happened.

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 09:10 AM
The problem is you'd think he'd help Vogel fix things quickly. Considering none of that is happening you wonder if Brian Shaw doesn't have it figured out either.

Brian Shaw would play a completely different offense. Vogel isn't going to listen to Shaw about that. Shaw comes in and they start playing the Triangle.....:cool:

OlBlu
11-14-2012, 09:17 AM
How do we know Shaw is any good tho?

personally i hope we move heaven and earth and get Jerry Sloan here

Bird might have done that. Walsh will either hire or promote an assistant coach.....:cool: I don't think Sloan would take this job....

RWB
11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
Bird decided he wasn't going to give Vogel the job until some vet coaches were brought in. I would say that was pretty telling on what Bird really thought of coach Vogel. Can't find it but I remember Bird talking about how he saw similarities between Frank and Lawence Frank on how they came up through the ranks. It wasn't a put down, but it didn't seem to be a ringing endorsement either on how to get a coaching position.

PacersPride
11-14-2012, 10:26 PM
I had no intent of starting a firestorm with this thread. i feel bad for Frank.

the bottom line is this team is not very good.

Naptown_Seth
11-15-2012, 01:12 PM
The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.

The plays are putting players in bad passing situations or in situations in which the post can be aggressively defended.

People saying that the team is just missing open shots are crazy. There are "I'm comfortable and in rhythm shots" and there are hurried, unexpected, kinda-open shots. This team has about 3-4 quality looks per game. Everything else is a total cluster**** of confusion and poor spacing.


I like Frank and his personality has been good for the team. But the strategy on offense that they are trying to run absolutely sucks and is not putting the talent in their best positions to win.


The team is literally the worst team in the NBA at this point, and the talent is much better than that. Frank needs to figure something out because I don't see how he can have this go to the 25 game point and not start looking over his shoulder at Shaw. Personally I don't see how Frank is going to make it through this year.

It sucks because I hate to see a great person not have success, but there's no point in sugar coating the situation either. Maybe this is just step 1/team 1 of his coaching learning process.

Sparhawk
11-15-2012, 01:54 PM
The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.

The plays are putting players in bad passing situations or in situations in which the post can be aggressively defended.

People saying that the team is just missing open shots are crazy. There are "I'm comfortable and in rhythm shots" and there are hurried, unexpected, kinda-open shots. This team has about 3-4 quality looks per game. Everything else is a total cluster**** of confusion and poor spacing.


I like Frank and his personality has been good for the team. But the strategy on offense that they are trying to run absolutely sucks and is not putting the talent in their best positions to win.


The team is literally the worst team in the NBA at this point, and the talent is much better than that. Frank needs to figure something out because I don't see how he can have this go to the 25 game point and not start looking over his shoulder at Shaw. Personally I don't see how Frank is going to make it through this year.

It sucks because I hate to see a great person not have success, but there's no point in sugar coating the situation either. Maybe this is just step 1/team 1 of his coaching learning process.

Couldn't have said it better. I just don't think Frank knows how to implement an effective offensive scheme that makes the most of the player's abilities.

Ace E.Anderson
11-15-2012, 02:11 PM
The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.


It doesn't help when you're throwing that pass to unathletic bigs who need the ball in perfect position. If this were an athletic big then this play would have a chance to work, because the big could come down the lane for a huge Jam/finish in traffic. Instead this play is designed to get a big an open 16 footer which can be a good shot BUT this set is also one of the worst in basketball because there is no way anybody can get back on defense in case of a turnover/long rebound. The only man back is the aforementioned slow/unathletic big that the shot was meant for in the first place. MIL ate that play up last night to the point that I never want to see it again lol.

Ransom
11-15-2012, 02:15 PM
Weren't we always supposed to sign Mike Brown? He's available-

*is shot*

OlBlu
11-15-2012, 02:16 PM
Weren't we always supposed to sign Mike Brown? He's available-

*is shot*

You want to try the "Princeton" offense now? Well, that won't work......:cool:

aamcguy
11-15-2012, 02:25 PM
You want to try the "Princeton" offense now? Well, that won't work......:cool:

Mike Brown doesn't know the Princeton offense, that's why they hired Eddie Jordan.

Unclebuck
11-15-2012, 02:39 PM
Maybe we should just bring in a new coach every year.

Since86
11-15-2012, 02:43 PM
It doesn't help when you're throwing that pass to unathletic bigs who need the ball in perfect position. If this were an athletic big then this play would have a chance to work, because the big could come down the lane for a huge Jam/finish in traffic. Instead this play is designed to get a big an open 16 footer which can be a good shot BUT this set is also one of the worst in basketball because there is no way anybody can get back on defense in case of a turnover/long rebound. The only man back is the aforementioned slow/unathletic big that the shot was meant for in the first place. MIL ate that play up last night to the point that I never want to see it again lol.

And it doesn't help when your bigs are getting the ball directly in front of the rim, and they can't score.

I've been saying they need to knock down shots, but I've never said that was THE fix. Hitting shots would go a long way to cure the ills of the offense though. There's going to be problems, the offensive system wasn't the best last year and this years system isn't much different, if any.

But what system you're running is irrelevant when you miss 2ft bunny after 2ft bunny. The best offensive system in the world won't fix that problem.

Trader Joe
11-15-2012, 02:44 PM
Maybe we should just bring in a new coach every year.

Dibs.

OlBlu
11-15-2012, 02:48 PM
Maybe we should just bring in a new coach every year.

That is what teams with poor management do......:cool: Jim Buss won't talk to Magic Johnson or his own GM so they make bad coaching hires like Mike Brown. They just made another one.....:cool:

BillS
11-15-2012, 03:05 PM
Maybe we should just bring in a new coach every year.

So what DO you think a coach is responsible for? Do you think the offense has shown itself adequate and fails only due to execution? Are our players being used the best they could be within the lineup, and are the offensive sets capable of helping them do their best?

Unless the answer to every one of those questions is a resounding "yes", you HAVE to at least LOOK at the coaching.

Cousy47
11-15-2012, 03:19 PM
What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?

OlBlu
11-15-2012, 03:50 PM
What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?

That "same" team was going to move back some in the field because other teams got better with their starting units.... But it shouldn't be this bad. All teams deal with injuries. Last year was lucky and magical. It may never happen again....:cool:

Sookie
11-15-2012, 03:51 PM
What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have the fifth most efficient offense in the entire NBA last season? If so, did it need to change? Sure, it wasn't pretty to watch. And sure, it could be more complicated thus not as easy to defend. But did anyone consider that maybe this team as constructed can't handle "complicated." We know Frank and the other coaches tried to teach them screening. How many of our players do that well? Oh yea, just West. We know he's talked constantly about moving the ball. How many players do that well? .....(I'll wait) We know he's talked about moving without the ball, how many players do that well? Just Hill. (And we're making him play PG, so he doesn't even get to do that as much.) You can not run a pretty or complicated offense if your players are unable to do those things.

And more importantly, I don't think people realize how big of a deal not having Granger is. Particularly when no one other than Lance and Tyler a bit has stepped up their game to try and help the loss.

vnzla81
11-15-2012, 04:02 PM
Sookie for what I can remember I think it was the other way around, the Pacers offense was on the bottom 5 last year, I remember reading articles trying to explain how a team with such a bad offense was winning so much, do you remember the games were the Pacers won even though they had a horrible shooting percentage?

Ace E.Anderson
11-15-2012, 04:16 PM
Sookie for what I can remember I think it was the other way around, the Pacers offense was on the bottom 5 last year, I remember reading articles trying to explain how a team with such a bad offense was winning so much, do you remember the games were the Pacers won even though they had a horrible shooting percentage?

From what I remember we were one of the only teams in the league, if not the only team in the league, that had a top 10 offense and defense in terms of efficiency.

Edit: We were 7th in offensive rating and 9th in defensive rating

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012.html

Unclebuck
11-15-2012, 04:31 PM
I have not read through this entire thread, so maybe this has been mentioned. But what we have to figure out is whether the players have tuned Frank out. I find it hard to believe that they have, but stranger things have happened. I don't see evidence that they have. also once you start losing it can snowball

aamcguy
11-15-2012, 04:32 PM
Sookie for what I can remember I think it was the other way around, the Pacers offense was on the bottom 5 last year, I remember reading articles trying to explain how a team with such a bad offense was winning so much, do you remember the games were the Pacers won even though they had a horrible shooting percentage?

Our offensive rebounding, FTA, and FT% were all excellent. So despite a poor FG%, we still scored well on per-shot or per-possession metrics.

OlBlu
11-15-2012, 04:38 PM
Our offensive rebounding, FTA, and FT% were all excellent. So despite a poor FG%, we still scored well on per-shot or per-possession metrics.

When your players can't spit in the ocean, there are more offensive rebounds available...... So, that is a product of the poor FG%....:cool:

aamcguy
11-15-2012, 04:48 PM
When your players can't spit in the ocean, there are more offensive rebounds available...... So, that is a product of the poor FG%....:cool:

Very true. However, offensive rebound PERCENT is not. I'm not arguing about why we *should* be successful, I'm talking about why we *were* successful. It is why despite having an offense that was inefficient and ugly to the eye, we actually scored at an above average clip.

Last Year's Offensive Rebound Ratio Stats (http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/offReboundRate/year/2012)

vnzla81
11-15-2012, 04:51 PM
Our offensive rebounding, FTA, and FT% were all excellent. So despite a poor FG%, we still scored well on per-shot or per-possession metrics.

So their field goal % was as bad as this year and yet they still won games right? now the only difference is that the Pacers are missing another player to play hero ball right?

Again I remember reading articles were they called what the Pacers were doing as "never been done before" or something like that, NBA gurus didn't have an answer for how a team could still win while having a bad to horrible shooting % and a horrible offense.

aamcguy
11-15-2012, 04:58 PM
So their field goal % was as bad as this year and yet they still won games right? now the only difference is that the Pacers are missing another player to play hero ball right?

Again I remember reading articles were they called what the Pacers were doing as "never been done before" or something like that, NBA gurus didn't have an answer for how a team could still win while having a bad to horrible shooting % and a horrible offense.

We are shooting far worse than last season, and we are turning the ball over more. It's kind of hard to compare all of this season's stats to last because stats are all leaning toward the defensive side for all teams atm, but we are the worst shooting team in the NBA. Period. We're not generating turnovers, and we're not making shots. The team is not playing as well as they did last year period, but the loss og Granger doesn't help.

I'm not arguing that the system is a good one or a sustainable one (who really knows that?), but it was quite effective last year.

OlBlu
11-15-2012, 05:01 PM
I have not read through this entire thread, so maybe this has been mentioned. But what we have to figure out is whether the players have tuned Frank out. I find it hard to believe that they have, but stranger things have happened. I don't see evidence that they have. also once you start losing it can snowball

The Lakers made a quick decision to replace their coach. It is past time already, give Vogel the gate. He will become an assistant again but he will never again be an NBA head coach in my opinion. He should have gotten the job in the first place.....:cool:

PacersPride
11-15-2012, 11:36 PM
there is no reason to let go of Frank Vogel before Granger gets back but if there is one it would be in an effort to not lose Brian Shaw. no interest in Mike Brown at this point in the season.

Sloan is not walking out of retirement to fix this cluster****. It is only fair to keep Vogel and see what happens when Granger returns. Let the Pacers decide this offseason.
/
* i still do not understand why Granger waited until training camp to take care of his knee.?

Eleazar
11-16-2012, 12:16 AM
* i still do not understand why Granger waited until training camp to take care of his knee.?

Because they didn't know how serious it was. It is kind of obvious, if they new how bad they would not hesitate to do something about it. They are not stupid.

vnzla81
11-16-2012, 01:09 AM
Because they didn't know how serious it was. It is kind of obvious, if they new how bad they would not hesitate to do something about it. They are not stupid.

Well they did something about it(the German treatment) and it didn't work.

Derek2k3
11-16-2012, 01:39 AM
Well they did something about it(the German treatment) and it didn't work.

Yeah, it isn't like they didn't do anything. The worst-case scenario was realized at the start of the season.

notque
11-16-2012, 03:05 AM
Vogel is being stubborn about the offense. It has to change. He can stay coach, but the offense must change. You have Brian Shaw there. You are a great defensive coach. Run the Triangle with Brian Shaw running the offense, and you focus on motivation and defense.

Ace E.Anderson
11-16-2012, 04:31 AM
Because they didn't know how serious it was. It is kind of obvious, if they new how bad they would not hesitate to do something about it. They are not stupid.

He was progressing okay until the preseason game against CHI where he had a sharp pain in his knee after a layup attempt. It's easy to forget but he looked relatively sharp in his first preseason action against the Cavs.

Sparhawk
11-16-2012, 07:40 AM
I have the perfect solution for the offense:

Just go that way really fast (toward our own basket). If something gets in your way, turn.

/I hope at least one person gets that.

Sparhawk
11-16-2012, 07:41 AM
Vogel is being stubborn about the offense. It has to change. He can stay coach, but the offense must change. You have Brian Shaw there. You are a great defensive coach. Run the Triangle with Brian Shaw running the offense, and you focus on motivation and defense.

Vogel doesn't strike me as the person that is stubborn. He's made constant changes to the lineup. His problem is that he simply doesn't know what to do.

Unclebuck
11-16-2012, 09:54 AM
The Lakers made a quick decision to replace their coach. It is past time already, give Vogel the gate. He will become an assistant again but he will never again be an NBA head coach in my opinion. He should have gotten the job in the first place.....:cool:

OK, but then how long will you want the next coach to be our coach. I think a lot of people in this forum won't be happy with any coach after the first year

OlBlu
11-16-2012, 10:17 AM
OK, but then how long will you want the next coach to be our coach. I think a lot of people in this forum won't be happy with any coach after the first year

I certainly agree with you about all of that. However, this losing streak is the opportunity to gracefully dump Vogel and get a real coach. I wouldn't mind trying Shaw for the rest of the season. Vogel just is not an NBA coach and he never will be.....:cool:

Phree Refill
11-16-2012, 10:32 AM
I'm beginning to wonder if shackling the players with sets is the biggest cause of our offensive putridity. I see no harm that can come from removing the reins and just letting the guys do thier thing for one game. Call it the intramural league offense. At the very least it gets rid of the predictable sets other teams just wait for us to run now.

BillS
11-16-2012, 10:51 AM
OK, but then how long will you want the next coach to be our coach. I think a lot of people in this forum won't be happy with any coach after the first year

While it is true that this is Vogel's first complete year, it is also true it is his third season or partial season as a head coach.

Even at that, if a coach comes out with what people perceive as an ineffective offense, that offense is going to get criticized (and has been since the beginning of last season - he got slack when he took over because he was simplifying and focusing a disjointed read-and-react offense).

There's no rule that says because a coach is new you have to be satisfied with what he implements. The question is rather a matter of how long you are willing to give him to correct the flaws.

For many people (myself included), Vogel was being granted the benefit of the doubt due to the poor circumstances of his takeover and his first full season having no real training camp. The expectation, though, was that an offense that was prepared with a full off-season and training camp would correct the issues with the flow that existed with last year's offense. So far, we have not seen that; even taking execution into account this is an extremely one-dimensional offense.

Ultimately, just like for a player, it comes down to results. I defended JOB on the forum not because I thought he was a good coach but because I thought people were pointing at the wrong things when they criticized him. In this case, I think people have pretty much the right idea about what Vogel's flaws are. Personally, I'd give him a little more time, but not necessarily the whole season.

Sookie
11-16-2012, 12:02 PM
From what I remember we were one of the only teams in the league, if not the only team in the league, that had a top 10 offense and defense in terms of efficiency.

Edit: We were 7th in offensive rating and 9th in defensive rating

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012.html

Yup. Our offense wasn't that bad. It was ugly. But it wasn't bad. Probably the best that group of guys could collectively do.

Now we have Roy in a slump and no Granger to take pressure off of him and PG.

It's just silly to evaluate our offense without our best player and arguably most important player. I think we've downgraded the bench. And we've made a mistake in trying to force Hill to be something he's not. (Especially when he's a great player for us when left to do what he's best at.) I think bottom line, this team as constructed needs a simple offense.

I'm not saying Vogel doesn't have flaws. I don't know if he knows what a pretty offense looks like. But I am saying it's probably silly to criticize someone whose offense was the seventh most efficient in the NBA last season for their offense. Sure it was simple, but it was clearly effective. But if we must criticize the offense, I think we also have to take into consideration what type of players we have..and what they are capable of doing. Because it looks to me like they aren't capable of running a pretty and smooth offense because they don't screen, move without the ball, or move the ball.