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View Full Version : Odd Thoughts: losing to the Hawks (again)



Peck
11-08-2012, 02:35 AM
Some of the starters arenít stepping up, in fact a Roy has been stepping back, but it is very apparent that Frank Vogel does not trust the new and improved bench at all.

Honestly who can blame him really, once again when the bench came in to start the second the team went from a 2 point lead to a 10 point deficit and it took the starters all they could muster just to come back at the half.

By the second half Frank just wasnít going to have it and thus by the end of the 4th we had nothing left, now mind you that is a poor excuse for only scoring 9 points in the entire quarter but it was part of it.

We once again were treated to some of the just dumbest passes Iíve ever seen by both Young (twice) and Green (once). I mean into traffic with defenders right there. Sure Paul, Lance & George had some bad passes but they just donít compare to the passes these two lay out.

At least we didnít just lay down like we did in San Antonio but frankly I wonder if this game would have ever gotten back into the Pacers favor without Hill actually hitting three point shots.

Which while Iím here I am going to just do it now.

26 effing three point shots? Over half of Paul Georgeís shots came from there, all of D.J. Augustin shots came from there. Over half of George Hills shots came from there but at least he hit more than he missed.

Besides missing and leading to a lot of long rebounds that can lead to fast breaks the other way why is this a problem? We got to the foul line 9 times, period. Now the refs. were calling this game loose so there might have been a lot more if we didnít shoot so many threeís because Atlanta only got 12 up but they were jacking up a lot of 3ís as well.

David West tried and God knows that Josh Smithís chest will probably be bruised tomorrow but West just got no help on the interior at all. We may have gained some length this summer but we certainly lost some strength as well.

I just donít know what to say really. I mean we played well at times and so there is that as a positive to look at but once again we have lost another game and now are under .500% for the season. Yes I know the Lakers are in worse shape, but you know what I donít care about them. They have a plethora of superstars that eventually will either play their way out of it or they can turn around and trade them for more superstars (or somehow they will turn Blake into Kyrie Irving via trade) We just donít have those type of players and we do not have the ability to make any kind of trade for a superstar. So I have to worry about us.

Iím just going to do player grades because anything else I say will probably interpreted as being too negative.

David West: A

He did everything he could and he did it against a very athletic front line. Heck he even played good defense during this game and like I said he was putting the hurt on Smith by lowering the shoulder into his sternum and giving him the forearm shivers. He just didnít have anybody to help him.

Sam Young: D

He was able to stay with Smith early on but Josh just jumped over him, no shame there btw as he does that to a lot of people. I would have been content giving him a C but again he had two of the dumbest passes into traffic I have ever seen & that is saying something. He may be the worst passing small forward Iíve ever seen.

Roy Hibbert: C-

Yip he is already in another one of his funks where he has lost confidence and now missing shots is making him not play the stellar defense he was last season. He is now missing hook shots within 5í of the basket that last season would have been a guaranteed two. Not sure where the answer is going to come from but unless he turns it around we are going to be in for a long season. (I have a feeling that this is going to be the case)

Paul George: C

Nothing really bad but nothing really good either. Just disappointed because if ever there was a time to shine for him it is now and all he is doing for me is remind me that I miss Danny Granger something fierce.

George Hill: A

He doesnít have the talent of a lot of the other star point guards in the NBA but he is a warrior and has no fear. If Paul George had ľ of his drive and desire to be involved in the big play our record would be significantly different. Donít get me wrong I donít love him taking 7 three point shots in a game but at the very least he hit more than he missed and he played fairly good defense.

Gerald Green: C

Tonight he settled for the three point shot way too early and way too easily. He gets points for hitting the glass and blocking a couple of shots but he also threw one of the dumbest passes Iíve ever seen again tonight. I believe he may be the second worst passing small forward Iíve ever seen.

Lance Stephenson: B

He had some really boneheaded defensive lapses in the 4th quarter but he was also a very large part of why we built up that lead in the 3rd quarter. I know this is not going to make sense to anyone but me but the reason I like Lance in there with the starters is because like West and like Hill he has a certain swagger that he brings when he is on the floor. Donít get me wrong that can burn us as often as it helps us but between Roy hiding from his shadow and Paulís ever cool demeanor (Iím being polite here btw) I like him giving us an edge.

Tyler Hansbrough: B

Is it just because I had so low expectations for Tyler that I actually consider him improved from last season? I mean forget the shooting, thatís just never going to be there, but his defense and rebounding this season are light years ahead of where they were last season. Honestly I trust him on the floor more than I do Mahinmi.

D.J. Augustin: D-

Just useless.

Ian Mahinmi: D-

Thank you for making me look like an idiot in my pre season preview. How the hell did this guy go from being a player that looked like an absolute steal in pre-season to me now wondering how did they ever sucker us into giving away Collison for him. God I hope he picks this up because as it stands now he is not playing anymore a game than Lou was and we are now back to using West as the backup 5. If that stands we could have saved ourselves a lot of money and signed someone a lot cheaper.

Again itís early and yes there was improvement but there really is a lot to be concerned about.

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able
11-08-2012, 05:05 AM
I don't agree for a change, West last score was with approx 4 and a half minutes in to the second half, he scored zilch after that.
Hill is one of the reasons for the idiotic amount of 3's, he can simply hardly get the ball across the timeline in time let alone get the ball in the interior (he had the same problem last year) if anything he takes the ball away from PG and so far he has been rescued in the act a few times by 20 odd points from West, but in al reality, he's not a PG and he will never ever be mistaken for one, only by Vogel, our next major problem.
So far despite having pre-season, camp and 5 games into the campaign, he has been unable to create an offense and frankly that is disturbing.
Calling GH an "all star" pg is another one, i seriously hope he solves his problems fast, beause I am starting to regret the money I spend on LPB.

Whether Hibbert is "fragile" or not is not even relevant yet imo, offense and defense have been a shambles and he simply is not "at home" with what is going on.
Sam Young may be a decent defender, the first 10 points Smith scored were over him, to let it get back to the same play, same defense 5 times in a row and 5 times down the court is outright ridiculous, twice at most, than you switch things up or foul, but you do NOT let a guy like Smith get into a comfort zone like that.

Why does West score big? because all the attention is going to Roy ; with or without the ball he as at least a double team on him, unless you believe DW runs the floor so fast he comes free so many times you seriously have to wonder where his defenders are.

Shrug, I hope they improve because as it is I fail to see how I can justify to myself and my cllients losing this much sleep over such a pathetic bunch.

pacerfreak
11-08-2012, 07:22 AM
We seem to have been seriously outcoached this season. I tend to think as Able thinks about Roy, right now he looks like a draw for a double team to open things up, however when Roy get the ball (which is not often enough) and gets double teamed West is usually the only one trying to help him by getting open. Also Able talks about not being "at home" with the plan, weel I think that's what's going on with DJ. He looks like he would rather be somewhere else for sure.

McKeyFan
11-08-2012, 07:49 AM
I know what I saw: David West scoring a whole lot with a bunch of people all around him. He was a beast. I second Peck's props.

Peck, your theory is a good one that they just ran out of gas at the end. I came away not sure exactly what happened.

Since86
11-08-2012, 10:01 AM
Once again, when the going got tough, jack up some 3s.

West should have been getting the ball the last 4mins. Smith couldn't guard him if he wanted too, and he didn't even want to. You could see the gameplan from the opening tip, but as the game went further and further along, the futher they got from actually doing it.

Pacer Fan
11-08-2012, 10:12 AM
Frank Vogel: F -

Hill had 2 really bad passes / turnovers...One to West that was beyond belief.

PacersHomer
11-08-2012, 10:52 AM
This team is the definition of a cluster*****.

BillS
11-08-2012, 11:06 AM
Missed all but the last few minutes of the game, which I caught on radio. Told my wife that I really needed to see some Odd Thoughts today to understand what the heck happened.

I did love Mark and Austin's call of the Lance "Oh NO No No No ... YES" three-pointer near the end.

But, really, to hold Atlanta to 89 points (when they scored over 100 in their previous games) - would you have thought the Pacers would lose a game where the defense was solid enough to do that? I mean, it took defensive lapses in the 4th to get Atlanta above 80 points, for goodness sakes.

It becomes really easy to harp on defensive errors or failures to get a particular stop, but the truth of the matter is that we could play this exact defense all year long and with any kind of decent offense (or even just some kind of ability to hit a shot) we'd be rolling over most teams.

This year it is offense, offense, offense, offense, offense that is the present the cat leaves in the middle of the floor.

Speed
11-08-2012, 11:23 AM
Great work so far this year, Peck. I always appreciate these, but you've been spot on across the board on your assessments. Nicely done! Keep it up, saves me lots of typing!

MiaDragon
11-08-2012, 11:33 AM
We seem to have been seriously outcoached this season. I tend to think as Able thinks about Roy, right now he looks like a draw for a double team to open things up, however when Roy get the ball (which is not often enough) and gets double teamed West is usually the only one trying to help him by getting open. Also Able talks about not being "at home" with the plan, weel I think that's what's going on with DJ. He looks like he would rather be somewhere else for sure.

Roy cant get position any where near the basket. Why should we force the ball to our center when he's pushed out to mid court? Its getting tiresome to hear the "cant get Roy the ball" drum constantly beat. Roy's the reason he's not getting the ball not the other way around. When he does get the ball his running flails are also not working. Its sad when Id rather see Ian in the game over that guy that we simply HAD to lock up to a max contract.

Ace E.Anderson
11-08-2012, 11:37 AM
Roy cant get position any where near the basket. Why should we force the ball to our center when he's pushed out to mid court? Its getting tiresome to hear the "cant get Roy the ball" drum constantly beat. Roy's the reason he's not getting the ball not the other way around. When he does get the ball his running flails are also not working. Its sad when Id rather see Ian in the game over that guy that we simply HAD to lock up to a max contract.

The times when we've gotten the ball, he hasn't produced. He missed a short layup, nd dropped a sure fire two in the fourth. That makes players reluctant to pass him the ball.

Cousy47
11-08-2012, 11:44 AM
I presume one of the passes from Green you were talking about was the bounce pass inbounds to Tyler "through" 2 defenders? I almost threw something at the TV! I'm not sure if the passing grade on Tyler is because we expected so little or if we have come to see that defense and hustle has to be his game from now on. It's pretty plain he will NEVER get a pass when he's ready to score unless it come from DJ or Lance. Does Tyler have the foot speed to guard most 3s we have to play? He certainly gave Josh Smith the blues last night. Maybe slide him to the 3 since we get no meaningful scoring from that position anyway. Hurry back, Danny!

aamcguy
11-08-2012, 11:45 AM
I'm okay with the 3's George Hill took in the game. Two of his makes came off of post ups where West kicked the ball out. He had a couple that were early in the shot clock, but he was always wide open when he shot it. I think Hill is gonna have to look to score more often with Granger out, and if his shot is falling the 3 isn't a bad way to do it.

Speed
11-08-2012, 12:53 PM
I presume one of the passes from Green you were talking about was the bounce pass inbounds to Tyler "through" 2 defenders? I almost threw something at the TV! I'm not sure if the passing grade on Tyler is because we expected so little or if we have come to see that defense and hustle has to be his game from now on. It's pretty plain he will NEVER get a pass when he's ready to score unless it come from DJ or Lance. Does Tyler have the foot speed to guard most 3s we have to play? He certainly gave Josh Smith the blues last night. Maybe slide him to the 3 since we get no meaningful scoring from that position anyway. Hurry back, Danny!

I seriously like this idea. Tyler does have very good foot speed in one on one isolation. I'm not sure he could do it against quick 3 and I'm not sure he could do it for extended periods of time. I do think if you use it to your benefit on the offensive end and actually post him up, it merits trying. I'd guess eventually that teams would figure out that you just run Tyler off of picks and he won't be able to keep up trying to defend 3s. Also, even when you post him up against 3s, teams would eventually realize he's a black hole and can't pass out of double teams.... Okay I may have talked myself out of it, now.

Derek2k3
11-08-2012, 01:14 PM
I don't have a problem with G3 taking the 7 three's, mainly due to the fact that he didn't really force any of them.

Roy has been miserable. I've never seen a player go from such a high, to such a low. It's laughable, teams don't even worry about him in the paint right now, he's going one on one with guys like ZaZa and getting beasted. I'm really shocked.

Trader Joe
11-08-2012, 01:14 PM
A C- for Roy? You're being nice.

Naptown_Seth
11-08-2012, 01:23 PM
I know what I saw: David West scoring a whole lot with a bunch of people all around him. He was a beast. I second Peck's props.

Peck, your theory is a good one that they just ran out of gas at the end. I came away not sure exactly what happened.
No kidding, I'm totally confused by Able's comments there. West ALWAYS gets doubled. He just makes guys wish they had left him alone, and then he uses his strength to just pull the ball up through their body and hit a soft one hander. Awesome.


George was great at pushing it in transitions, but he also had some drives up court that ended in wild backward passes to nowhere or cross court steal bait.



The defense is pretty solid. I think the mistakes stand out when the offense is dead because every stop becomes so critical. But you can win games with this defense.

What you can't do is have an offense that can go 6 minutes without finding a good shot. Right now they aren't interacting well at all and it's leading to clunky one on one offense paired with out of control passes. Apart for Lance's sweet pass to a cutting Tyler none of the passing looks pre-planned. That's the reason the TOs are high and why Peck thinks Green and Young are so awful. The problem is Paul and George are throwing very similar, awful passes too.


They have some sets obviously that lead dribblers to places where they end up with no options. It happens too much to not be true. Every single ball handler is having this happen to them on a pretty regular basis. What saves Lance is his playground mentality which somewhat thrives in broken chaos. But that's not how you win NBA games.

Goyle
11-08-2012, 01:41 PM
Are we sure that's not AJ out there? Has he even dribbled inside the three point line this season? Dude has been BAD.

I'm loving the fire we're seeing from Lance. I'll live with "Bad Lance" all day, at least you can tell he cares. The Hawks broadcast showed him on the bench after his last three and he was PISSED at himself for the missed defensive assignment earlier.

HibbyGo
11-08-2012, 02:00 PM
We re 4-5th at best in the east even getting granger back

DemonHunter1105
11-08-2012, 02:22 PM
It's laughable, teams don't even worry about him in the paint right now, he's going one on one with guys like ZaZa and getting beasted. I'm really shocked.

Are you sure about this? I swear everytime he gets the ball he is being double or triple teamed immediately. Whichever Pacer that is being left open due to the double team is doing a terrible job at helping Roy out. One on one, Roy can score on anyone in the league with varying effectiveness but he has just missed his shots so far this year when being guarded man to man. Which from what I have been seeing has not been that often. They have made it very difficult for him to get the ball where he wants it and pressured him constantly when he does. We do miss Danny, but I honestly feel 70% of the blame is on our team's inability to adjust as well as the other team's defense and only 30% should go to Roy for his subpar performances.

If you can provide some video or statistical analysis that shows Roy is mostly being terrible in 1v1 situations, I would like to see that. It is entirely possible my perspective is completely off.

Goyle
11-08-2012, 02:28 PM
Are you sure about this? I swear everytime he gets the ball he is being double or triple teamed immediately. Whichever Pacer that is being left open due to the double team is doing a terrible job at helping Roy out. One on one, Roy can score on anyone in the league with varying effectiveness but he has just missed his shots so far this year when being guarded man to man. Which from what I have been seeing has not been that often. They have made it very difficult for him to get the ball where he wants it and pressured him constantly when he does. We do miss Danny, but I honestly feel 70% of the blame is on our team's inability to adjust as well as the other team's defense and only 30% should go to Roy for his subpar performances.

If you can provide some video or statistical analysis that shows Roy is mostly being terrible in 1v1 situations, I would like to see that. It is entirely possible my perspective is completely off.

Roy gets doubled when he has good position, his problem is the same as its always been. Roy just can't get good position and he starts putting up hook shots from way too far out.

It would also help if someone other than Paul moved without the ball when he has it on the block.

Heisenberg
11-08-2012, 02:29 PM
Mr. Boyle's taping Pacers Weekly later today with Vogel. Taking Twitter questions to potentially ask him.

https://twitter.com/Mark_J_Boyle/status/266609854272110592

let's keep it classy

CJ Jones
11-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Lance Stephenson: B

He had some really boneheaded defensive lapses in the 4th quarter but he was also a very large part of why we built up that lead in the 3rd quarter. I know this is not going to make sense to anyone but me but the reason I like Lance in there with the starters is because like West and like Hill he has a certain swagger that he brings when he is on the floor. Donít get me wrong that can burn us as often as it helps us but between Roy hiding from his shadow and Paulís ever cool demeanor (Iím being polite here btw) I like him giving us an edge.


It makes sense to me. He's the only wing on the team that doesn't seem scared when the ball's in his hands.

skyfire
11-08-2012, 05:40 PM
That was a strange game to watch. Both teams went through stretches when they went ice cold, primarily by resorting to long 2s and 3s. Then both teams would swap over and catch fire for a period. Neither team executed particularly well, despite West, Horford and Smith looking dominant at times.

I don't know why the Pacers went away from the Hill/West high pick and roll late in the game. It seemed like our surest route to a basket early on.

I thought Roy had a so-so game for the most part. He seems to be lacking confidence a bit, but I would just tell him that if he catches an offensive rebound within 3 feet of the basket, just try and dunk over anyone in his way. He might get blocked, but usually he is going to draw a foul or get an and-1. There were several times when the ball fell to him and the defense weren't really set to stop him and he puts up a soft shot which misses. If he had tried to power it home, much better things would have happened.

Paul George may have worked on his handles over the off season, but he isn't using them very productively. He just needs to try and get the basket in a half court set occasionally. Just try and get past the first man and attack the rim. If we don't go straight into a high pick and roll, we seem to just mess around with the ball on the perimeter until a 3 or a postup happens. Someone has to try and get to the rim and draw some fouls. 9 foul shots for an entire game is shockingly bad.

Peck
11-08-2012, 05:53 PM
I know this is kind of off topic but I didn't want to start a new thread just for this.

It's been funny for me the past day or so to watch all of the national media talk about Danny Granger and his injury. In the pre-season previews there was not a single star player from around the NBA more scrutinized for what he can't do than Danny, any praise for him was met with tales of how he needed to step back and let others take over the franchise.

Now that he is out for at least half of the season the same people who were bashing him are now talking about him as though he were Michael Jordan (ok that's hyperbole but you get my point) and talking about how the team is in deep trouble without him.

bellisimo
11-08-2012, 05:59 PM
the team just seems mentally weak overall - all the lack of executions, silly bounce passes, careless handling of the ball, bad shot selections - they all seem to stem from a mental weakness to me. They need to get their act together - and soon before things really get out of control.

The way we're playing - this swagger marketing is nothing but false advertisement - they are walking on eggshells and are looking extremely fragile out there.

The opposing teams are giving the Pacers open 3s because we can't knock them down - and until we knock them down we will get these 20+ open looks a game - but I would definitely prefer better offensive execution where we are not stuck with the ball at the 3pt line with only 2 seconds left on the shot clock - that is just frustrating to watch.