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Psyren
11-07-2012, 10:37 PM
Wow.

We. Are. Awful

Dr. Awesome
11-07-2012, 10:39 PM
Sucks this is a weak draft.

LuckSwagger
11-07-2012, 10:40 PM
Outscored 20-3 in the last 6 minutes.


This team is mentally weak.

ThA HoyA
11-07-2012, 10:40 PM
17 seconds for that shot

D-BONE
11-07-2012, 10:41 PM
Tremendously heinous performance in the 4th.

PacersHomer
11-07-2012, 10:41 PM
This team is horribly coached by a terrible coach, and they are full of players who don't care or are too big of pussies to play hard. Embarrassing.

vnzla81
11-07-2012, 10:41 PM
I'm not going to complain they were not as bad as I thought they were going to be, a 3 point loss is a huge win a this point.

Hypnotiq
11-07-2012, 10:41 PM
*Waits for all the people to come in and say OH COME ON GUISE STOP OVERACTING*

Pace Maker
11-07-2012, 10:41 PM
on the bright note at least our big man is playing up to his max contract, way to go David West!

oh wait

Psyren
11-07-2012, 10:42 PM
I hate to say this but Vogel honeymoon is over.

He is a miserable coach.

TMJ31
11-07-2012, 10:43 PM
Tough loss. No sugar coating, we choked. Let's get our road mojo back on Friday and start to find our 'No Danny' identity. Season isn't over folks. Tougher? Yes. Over? Not by a long shot.

Pacertron
11-07-2012, 10:43 PM
Shows how much Granger means to this team. Sorry if I ever doubted him. They play scared. Paul George plays scared. Hill and West are the only ones that are not afraid to play. Why did we leave Stephenson out there after all those boneheaded plays? Why were we just lining up behind the three point line praying that we would just magically get wide open looks?

vnzla81
11-07-2012, 10:43 PM
*Waits for all the people to come in and say OH COME ON GUISE STOP OVERACTING*

It has only been 5 games........

Romsey31
11-07-2012, 10:44 PM
As I said I a previous thread. Pg and Hibberts value will never be higher ..... Just saying

Pacertron
11-07-2012, 10:44 PM
It has only been 5 games........

And we've already lost our heart.

Johanvil
11-07-2012, 10:45 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb9j5tkxO41r8kr5po1_250.gif

PR07
11-07-2012, 10:46 PM
Danny Granger is stunting Paul George's growth.

rexnom
11-07-2012, 10:46 PM
Why would we trade PG or Hibbert? The obvious trade chip is West.

Kid Minneapolis
11-07-2012, 10:46 PM
Calling for Vogel after five games is hilarious. Come on guys. That said, ya, we haven't been good.

We lost this game, but it was something we can build on. We outplayed them for large chunks of the game and actually had some offensive flow. I see things starting to come together a bit.

Nuntius
11-07-2012, 10:47 PM
:(

aamcguy
11-07-2012, 10:48 PM
I only have two things to say about this game.

1) This sucks worse than Sacramento last year cuz their "comeback" took like 12 seconds.

2) Why did we stop running our offense through David West? It worked for the first 36 minutes.

boombaby1987
11-07-2012, 10:48 PM
I'm not going to complain they were not as bad as I thought they were going to be, a 3 point loss is a huge win a this point.

Come on man. Your up by 14 with 6 and a half to play. You score 9 points all 4th quarter. You have to be ****ing kidding me if you think this a huge win. It's one of the worst losses I can remember. I thought the Bobcats loss would be the worst of the season, but unfortunately we already have a better canidate. Something is horribly wrong internally with this team, and I think it is Vogel. Do KP and DW have the courage to fire Vogel if the season continues like it is? Such poor coaching.

Johanvil
11-07-2012, 10:48 PM
Almost 6 minutes to score a basket in the last period when the game is on the line.Talking about a team with balls.Just **** off.Hibbert should be ashamed of himself honestly.Here is a guy who has a max contract and he is unable to score,rebound or even catch the damn ball.

Ace E.Anderson
11-07-2012, 10:48 PM
Glad we played hard and fought. Starters had tired legs in the 4th nd that zone killed us.

Now my overreaction....
1. We should've let Roy and his charmin soft a** go to Por. I'd rather have signed or traded for a big that'll give me 8 and 8 for 1/4 of the price.
2. Paul George has zero cajones.
3. Outside of West, Hill, and Lance, this team needs to go see a sports psychiatrist or something.
4. Green? Ha. Mahinmi? Haha. Young?! HOW'RE YOU IN THE LEAGUE?! Lol. This bench is a joke
5. Vogel is an idiot. Anybody with any type of IQ could see that Lance should play with the starters. Yet he decides to start Yung (no O) THEN he allowed us to go THAT LONG without a FG before trying to set up some plays against that zone. I love how he's changed our culture, but he's having the same probs over and over. Eff smashmouth, eff championship passing, eff all the talk...draw up ONE offensive possession that works lol.

Okay I'm back. And i truly am proud of our effort. Time to bunker down and come together. Go pacers

gummy
11-07-2012, 10:48 PM
The story of the third quarter: Lance giveth, the story of the fourth quarter: Lance taketh away. Not at all saying he is solely responsible, just that there was a big drop off in his play.

But at least he's not afraid of the big shot, I give him a lot of credit for that. PG clearly is.

Roy...I don't even know what to say about Roy.

And the bench. Ugh. They should be better overall than last year's bench. But clearly they aren't, at least so far.

If not for George Hill and David West we'd still be looking for our first win.

3rdStrike
11-07-2012, 10:49 PM
- Big Money Roy still looking like a huge mistake.
- Vogel still looking like he doesn't know what offense should look like.

Here, let me help you out, Frank. This is your starting lineup going forward:

Hill
Stephenson
George
West
Hibbert

this is your bench:

Augustin
Green
Mahinmi

Newsflash: you don't have to play the subs all at the same time. In fact, please don't. It was embarrassing last year and it's embarrassing now.

In terms of offense, no sense in calling plays for Hibbert. He can't move anybody and he has ONE move. Two if you count the fake-pass before the one move (and it's always a fake, so it never works). FFS, you're 7'2, playing like you're 6'7. Let him get his 7 points a night on tipped shots. That will either encourage effort or force him to ponder why he isn't being given the ball.

Paul George just doesn't have "it." Thirteen shot attempts? One free throw? Seriously, one? At least Lance Stephenson and George Hill have some of "it". Not enough to carry a team but more than the shy "franchise players" we've got in Big Money Roy & George.

I don't know who I'm more disappointed with. I suppose it's PG because I knew Hibbert was vastly overrated. I had hopes that PG would take that next step (and he's still a good player overall), but clearly he doesn't want to do it. He doesn't have the desire, the fuel, the motivation, whatever you want to call it. If you're taking 13 shots in a loss with Granger out for months, idk what's wrong with you.

Malakai432
11-07-2012, 10:50 PM
I know it's early but who would've thought the Colts where going to look better than the Pacers?!

Eddie Gill
11-07-2012, 10:50 PM
Hibbert has been so depressing this season I don't even want to think about it.

CreekShow
11-07-2012, 10:50 PM
17 seconds for that shot

Thats what i was thinking. Am I the only one who thought the obvious play there is to try and get a quick basket, and then foul again?

gummy
11-07-2012, 10:50 PM
Shows how much Granger means to this team. Sorry if I ever doubted him. They play scared. Paul George plays scared. Hill and West are the only ones that are not afraid to play. Why did we leave Stephenson out there after all those boneheaded plays? Why were we just lining up behind the three point line praying that we would just magically get wide open looks?

Maybe because he's the only other person besides Hill, West, and Hans that isn't playing scared. Boneheaded on and off, yes - but not scared of the moment.

pathil275
11-07-2012, 10:51 PM
Don't wanna panic, but it's getting worse and worse. I dont know, what should me make optimistic that we'll get better short-term? The schedule aint getting easier and the coaching staff seems unable to adjust. The last play call speaks volumes.

BornReady
11-07-2012, 10:51 PM
http://coedbc.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/stephenson-choke.jpg

Johanvil
11-07-2012, 10:52 PM
Calling for Vogel after five games is hilarious. Come on guys. That said, ya, we haven't been good.

We lost this game, but it was something we can build on. We outplayed them for large chunks of the game and actually had some offensive flow. I see things starting to come together a bit.

WOW either you are an eternal optimist and that's admirable or you don't want to see some glaring things.We can't build on that game.If anything we can only lose.We choked big time there and was a terrible performance at the end.Players like Paul George and especially Roy once again disappointed when we needed them the most.Finally Vogel is unable to draw a single ****ing play to get someone free for a shot.Let alone more complicated plays.We have no systems whatsoever.

HickeyS2000
11-07-2012, 10:52 PM
*Waits for all the people to come in and say OH COME ON GUISE STOP OVERACTING*

*Waits for all the people to come in and say the SEASONS OVER OMG!!!! Oh wait, they are already here.

rock747
11-07-2012, 10:53 PM
Why is everyone going after Vogel?! It's obvious the team was downgraded by the front office. It's been evident since the first 3 games. we all thought this after the moves happened intially but the Pacer's propaganda made us believe otherwise. We didn't want to spend money to get better... OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee etc. We made small town moves and we get **** results.


Larry birds not coming back to this ****...

Pacertron
11-07-2012, 10:54 PM
Maybe because he's the only other person besides Hill, West, and Hans that isn't playing scared. Boneheaded on and off, yes - but not scared of the moment.

I agree that he he plays with balls and I appreciate it, but he also was careless and taking selfish shots, and then that awful pass down the court. He was playing like we were up 20 while they were storming back. I don't hold him responsible for this loss, but he was a HUGE reason they were able to make that come back.

And seriously, man I cannot stand Korver. Always finds away against us it seems.

cdash
11-07-2012, 10:55 PM
I'm not saying our season is done or ruined or anything like that, but I will say the bench has me deeply, deeply concerned.

vnzla81
11-07-2012, 10:55 PM
Why would we trade PG or Hibbert? The obvious trade chip is West.

Too bad they won't trade him, he is staying until his value is nothing.

Johanvil
11-07-2012, 10:55 PM
I know it's early but who would've thought the Colts where going to look better than the Pacers?!

Even me who knows almost next to nothing about American football,I've watched some games of them this season and they bring out a lot of passion and that despite their good record so far.Can't wait to see them tomorrow.

MiaDragon
11-07-2012, 10:56 PM
As I said I a previous thread. Pg and Hibberts value will never be higher ..... Just saying

Hibbert has value? What games have YOU watched. I doubt you could give his contract away at this point.

Pacertron
11-07-2012, 10:56 PM
And no disrespect to Atlanta, but this would have been another blow out if it were against another team like the Spurs. We are barely hanging on to games against teams we are "supposed" to beat. Yes I know it is early. But this team needs a kick in the ***.

CreekShow
11-07-2012, 10:57 PM
Why is everyone going after Vogel?! It's obvious the team was downgraded by the front office. It's been evident since the first 3 games. we all thought this after the moves happened intially but the Pacer's propaganda made us believe otherwise. We didn't want to spend money to get better... OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee etc. We made small town moves and we get **** results.


Larry birds not coming back to this ****...

The thing is just like everyone expects Roy and Paul to progress and step their game up, you gotta expect Frank to do the same. So far he has shown no signs of progress from last year IMO. Still cant draw up an offense play worth a **** when it comes to crunch time and his substitutions are laughable.

Hypnotiq
11-07-2012, 10:59 PM
*Waits for all the people to come in and say the SEASONS OVER OMG!!!! Oh wait, they are already here.

i never have said once that the season is a lost cause.

everyone is entitled to how they want to react to a win or a loss.

presto123
11-07-2012, 11:00 PM
I can still see posters in a few months saying........"be patient.......it's only been 50 games". LOL

Pacertron
11-07-2012, 11:00 PM
The thing is just like everyone expects Roy and Paul to progress and step their game up, you gotta expect Frank to do the same. So far he has shown no signs of progress from last year IMO. Still cant draw up an offense play worth a **** when it comes to crunch time and his substitutions are laughable.

I have been a pretty big Vogel supporter. But the substitutions are so terrible and set in stone. He does not know how to mix and match the starters with the bench as the game wears on. That is why the offensive flow is so atrocious.

Dr. Hibbert
11-07-2012, 11:01 PM
Clearly, anyone saying anything negative is just panicking and will look foolish in January.

...right? Right, guys?

3rdStrike
11-07-2012, 11:02 PM
Why is everyone going after Vogel?! It's obvious the team was downgraded by the front office. It's been evident since the first 3 games. we all thought this after the moves happened intially but the Pacer's propaganda made us believe otherwise. We didn't want to spend money to get better... OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee etc. We made small town moves and we get **** results.




What? The team was upgraded. The bench is better, and DC was supposed to be addition by subtraction. Except, as it turns out, once he escaped Vogel's joke of an offense he's back to his New Orleans form. It's not a coincidence that Augustin looked 10x better with the Bobcats.

Anyone who is going to say Vogel is anything more than terrible when it comes to offense is not watching the games. It's nothing new. He's had Lance stand in the corner for two seasons now. Nobody rolls to the basket. The bigs pick and pop (and by pop I mean clang). Everything moves at 3 mph. If West or Green don't get the ball then nothing happens for the first 18 sec of the shot clock. He doesn't get in his players face at all. A players coach is cool when you have KG and stuff on the floor. Our two most important players are chicken hearts and Vogel doesn't seem to care.

MiaDragon
11-07-2012, 11:03 PM
Why is everyone going after Vogel?! It's obvious the team was downgraded by the front office. It's been evident since the first 3 games. we all thought this after the moves happened intially but the Pacer's propaganda made us believe otherwise. We didn't want to spend money to get better... OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee etc. We made small town moves and we get **** results.


Larry birds not coming back to this ****...

Because after 3 years he has YET to install any semblance of an offence, fails to make any sort of in game adjustments. His rotations are horrendous and he use of timeouts are, well pathetic. I've never been a big fan, when I question Frank the end of his first year the response I received was "geeze he took over the team mid season, give him some time". The next year, same complaints and I got "Well ya know he never had a pre saeson, so THATS why we have no offensive scheme. New year, same problems. Frank seems to be a good guy and the players like him, I just dont see a coach that has what it takes to make the team better.

boombaby1987
11-07-2012, 11:03 PM
Vogel did mix up the offensive rotations early in the quarter. West and George were on the floor to start the 4th. They took a quick break. Hill and Hibbert came on. Then all 4 real starters came back on. We were doing fine until all of our star players came back on the floor. Our starters lost us the game tonight. Vogel's playcalls did not help though.

cdash
11-07-2012, 11:05 PM
What? The team was upgraded. The bench is better, and DC was supposed to be addition by subtraction. Except, as it turns out, once he escaped Vogel's joke of an offense he's back to his New Orleans form. It's not a coincidence that Augustin looked 10x better with the Bobcats.

This team was not upgraded. The bench is not better. Augustin looked maybe 1.5x better in Charlotte, but he just kind of always sucks.

PacersHomer
11-07-2012, 11:05 PM
What does Vogel do well?

gummy
11-07-2012, 11:05 PM
WOW either you are an eternal optimist and that's admirable or you don't want to see some glaring things.We can't build on that game.If anything we can only lose.We choked big time there and was a terrible performance at the end.Players like Paul George and especially Roy once again disappointed when we needed them the most.Finally Vogel is unable to draw a single ****ing play to get someone free for a shot.Let alone more complicated plays.We have no systems whatsoever.

Also, when the players do get free they are air balling wide open shots, or just barely grazing the freaking rim. That has happened several times in every game so far and it's maddening.

presto123
11-07-2012, 11:06 PM
Don't care what anybody says heart trumps talent sometimes and that's what the players had that we let go. That's why I started that other thread about missing the guys that are not here. We got rid of the energy on the team and it is showing big time.

Ace E.Anderson
11-07-2012, 11:06 PM
What does Vogel do well?

Making bold statements lol

boombaby1987
11-07-2012, 11:06 PM
We play good defense. Thats a start. But we still have not scored near 100 points in regulation.

LG33
11-07-2012, 11:07 PM
Still undefeated at home!

Mr_Smith
11-07-2012, 11:08 PM
Damn I leave one place they are up 12, I get in the damn car they are only up 3, then end up losing by 3....remarkable. What a complete CHOKE. If one more person says stop over-reacting, please just remove yourself from the thread. This team is on the start of a slide, please don't give me the "its only 5 games" mess.

Sollozzo
11-07-2012, 11:08 PM
I'm in Florida for a couple of days and unfortunately couldn't watch the game. But I see that Augistin had 0 points, 1 rebound, and 1 assist. He's not even in Collison's league right now. Collison is lighting people up in Dallas while Augistin has virtually done nothing for the Pacers.

Collison for Mahinmi was a bad trade. Dallas ripped us off. I doubt Bird would have pulled the trigger on that one had he stayed. All I heard this off-season was how much improved our bench was. I don't see it. It's not even a wash right now. Last year's bench was better. Give me the spark from Collison and Barbosa any day over this. We sure could use DC's scoring right now.

3rdStrike
11-07-2012, 11:09 PM
This team was not upgraded. The bench is not better. Augustin looked maybe 1.5x better in Charlotte, but he just kind of always sucks.

The bench players are definitely better. Augustin, Green, Mahinmi are better players than DJ, DC, Barbosa, Amundson. The problem is that playing them all at the same time for long stretches is simply moronic. They're not going to look good when there's no starters on the court.

Ugh, you guys remember last year's bench play? How Amundson was our go to guy and shot contested jumpers? Vogel, stop.

presto123
11-07-2012, 11:10 PM
I'm in Florida for a couple of days and unfortunately couldn't watch the game. But I see that Augistin had 0 points, 1 rebound, and 1 assist. He's not even in Collison's league right now. Collison is lighting people up in Dallas while Augistin has virtually done nothing for the Pacers.

Collison for Mahinmi was a bad trade. Dallas ripped us off. I doubt Bird would have pulled the trigger on that one had he stayed. All I heard this off-season was how much improved our bench was. I don't see it. It's not even a wash right now. Last year's bench was better. Give me the spark from Collison and Barbosa any day over this. We sure could use DC's scoring right now.

Amen. I would even take Lou over Mahinmi at least right now. We need some energy and heart out there.

Ace E.Anderson
11-07-2012, 11:11 PM
In all honesty, if we could've rebounded better we probably would've won. They got way too many second chance points

cdash
11-07-2012, 11:12 PM
The bench players are definitely better. Augustin, Green, Mahinmi are better players than DJ, DC, Barbosa, Amundson. The problem is that playing them all at the same time for long stretches is simply moronic. They're not going to look good when there's no starters on the court.

Ugh, you guys remember last year's bench play? How Amundson was our go to guy and shot contested jumpers? Vogel, stop.

No, they really aren't better players. At all. And I kind of liked Amundson. Scrappy guy.

clownskull
11-07-2012, 11:12 PM
Danny Granger is stunting Paul George's growth.

ha, yep- i remember numerous people saying that and they were serious. and to a point it almost seemed a plausible complaint. however, i think we are now seeing how false it truly is and that paul is likely nothing more than a 12-14 ppg. player. i think that might also be roy's ceiling too as far as consistently scoring goes.

Ace E.Anderson
11-07-2012, 11:12 PM
Amen. I would even take Lou over Mahinmi at least right now. We need some energy and heart out there.

Hearts overrated when you don't have the size or the talent to make a difference.

cdash
11-07-2012, 11:14 PM
Collison for Mahinmi was a bad trade.

Collison and a useful end of rotation guy in Dahntay Jones. That trade never made much sense to me.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:14 PM
Was at the game. They actually looked really good. Had to leave at the end of the third since my wife has been pulling double duty at CNN for the elections and was really tired.

First, the Pacers still make too many dumb TOs, mostly passes that shouldn’t be.

2nd, Vogel playing the starters the ENTIRE 3rd was just dumb, especially since we had a sizable lead. Didn’t see the 4th, but I can assume the bench played too long – couldn’t score or defend (flashes of last year) and by the time the starters came back they were ice cold from sitting on the bench. Even if that isn’t what happened, 9pts in a quarter is inexcusable.

Dear God, how can we not get Hibbert the ball. He should abuse a player like Pachulia. This was so frustrating cause it didn’t look like they were trying to get Hibbert involved too much. Hibbert always looks so indecisive when he gets the ball. Dude, you are 7’2"! Make a move to the left or right. Sky hook that crap all night if you have too. Pachulia isn’t gonna block you. Dude plays like Charmin tissue, but we know he’s capable of so much more.

Vogel took entirely too long taking out Young when Smith kept abusing him. Took too long before he added Lance with the starters…which they look soooooo freaking good. And putting Young back in to start the 2nd half on Smith again? WTF! Should have put Ian/Lance in sooner. Match their height with our height. Let Plumlee get some PT. Young was just terrible, actually beyond terrible.

Starting lineup moving forward should be Hill, Lance, PG, West, Hibbs. That seems to be our best bunch right there.

Bench is showing that it is just a waste of money spent. I still think Green and Ian will pan out, but DJ is turning out to be a terrible signing.

This isn’t all doom and gloom. The Pacers did play rather well for 3 quarters. Best they have played yet. Just need to work on closing out those 4ths.

Sollozzo
11-07-2012, 11:14 PM
No, they really aren't better players. At all. And I kind of liked Amundson. Scrappy guy.

They're better, aside from the fact that they haven't come remotely close to playing better. Other than that though, they're better.....

Handoverfist
11-07-2012, 11:16 PM
Give me last years bench any day.

Pacer Fan
11-07-2012, 11:19 PM
17.1 seconds off a time out and coach draws up a play like he is ahead in the game...worst 17.1 seconds ever.

I hate to say that I am right on calling coach out last year cause he seems like a really nice guy, but the dude has no reason to be a head coach let alone in the NBA.

boombaby1987
11-07-2012, 11:19 PM
1-3 start on the Road. :(

vnzla81
11-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Collison and a useful end of rotation guy in Dahntay Jones. That trade never made much sense to me.

That trade made sense to me when it happened because I thought they had something else working, I thought they were going after somebody else, maybe a huge trade, no nothing.

Now that trade looks horrible.

boombaby1987
11-07-2012, 11:20 PM
17.1 seconds off a time out and coach draws up a play like he is ahead in the game...worst 17.1 seconds ever.

I hate to say that I am right on calling coach out last year cause he seems like a really nice guy, but the dude has no reason to be a head coach let alone in the NBA.


I miss the quote from your signature. :(

rock747
11-07-2012, 11:21 PM
People should be angered with the Pacers front office, period. We truly traded our bench away for a bunch of D-leaguers... Ben hansbrough, Sam young- training camp invites .... Gerald Green- barely removed from D-league. D.J. Augustine- looks like he is on his way there. Sam young is comically bad.

cdash
11-07-2012, 11:22 PM
That trade made sense to me when it happened because I thought they had something else working, I thought they were going after somebody else, maybe a huge trade, no nothing.

Now that trade looks horrible.

Collison had some value. Jones didn't, but DC did. Sign Mahinmi outright and shop DC around for an asset. We had the space to do it.

Johanvil
11-07-2012, 11:23 PM
17 offensive rebounds for the Hawks.**** me.This is bad.

vnzla81
11-07-2012, 11:25 PM
Collison had some value. Jones didn't, but DC did. Sign Mahinmi outright and shop DC around for an asset. We had the space to do it.

Trust me I've been saying the same thing for a long time, my thinking at the time was that I thought they were opening space for a guy like Brand or Scola and as we know nothing happened :kickcan:

CableKC
11-07-2012, 11:25 PM
First, the Pacers still make too many dumb TOs, mostly passes that shouldn’t be.
This game, we only made 15 TOs....but guess which Team ranks last both in Team TOs and causing Opponent's TOs?

TOs are killing this Team.....with...as you say...making stupid plays and passes.

vnzla81
11-07-2012, 11:27 PM
By the way what are the Pacers going to do with all those long term contracts if it doesn't work out? are we gonna have to wait until they expired?

rabid
11-07-2012, 11:29 PM
My god people.

:onozomg:

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:29 PM
I think a big problem is that the Pacers have nice guys...that's great and all, but you need players with a high basketball IQ or tons of athleticism that covers up the lack of basketball IQ. Pacers do have a couple of guys with jump out of the gym athleticism, but I don't seem many guys with a high basketball IQ. Maybe it's that they are simply dumb and can't comprehend running plays so Vogel has to keep it "simple"

I kidding for the most part, but I seriously think this team is lacking guys with a high BBIQ.

rock747
11-07-2012, 11:29 PM
By the way what are the Pacers going to do with all those long term contracts if it doesn't work out? are we gonna have to wait until they expired?

Didn't we give Gerald Green a 3 year deal? ouch.

Mr_Smith
11-07-2012, 11:30 PM
Just really baffles me how most of the 3rd quarter was flawless and then completely collapse halfway through the 4th. I guess thats the definition of choking.

cdash
11-07-2012, 11:30 PM
My god people.

:onozomg:

We're upset, we are venting, it's part of the healing process, let it happen.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:30 PM
By the way what are the Pacers going to do with all those long term contracts if it doesn't work out? are we gonna have to wait until they expired?

Haha, I don't think we should be discussing that for awhile. Half the board will die of panic attacks.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:31 PM
Just really baffles me how most of the 3rd quarter was flawless and then completely collapse halfway through the 4th. I guess thats the definition of choking.

I'm guessing they were completely gassed. But I think scoring 9pts is inexcusable.

cdash
11-07-2012, 11:32 PM
Didn't we give Gerald Green a 3 year deal? ouch.

Yeah but that is going to be a steal when he finally is playing the role he is comfortable with off the bench.

...oh. He's already on the bench. Right. Uhh...him and Plumlee probably have the highest combined vertical leaps of any two teammates. So we've got that going for us.

rock747
11-07-2012, 11:32 PM
I'm guessing they were completely gassed. But I think scoring 9pts is inexcusable.
They were gassed because they had to play the whole 3rd quarter. they played the whole 3rd quarter because our bench would undoubtedly have lost the lead anyway.

CableKC
11-07-2012, 11:33 PM
Honestly, I don't have any idea why Augustin is so bad here in Indy but pretty decent on the Bobcats. The Bobcats Starting Lineup can't be any worse then the Pacers 2nd unit :shrug:

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:34 PM
I really don't understand why people have a problem with others venting.

The ones calling out people for overreacting...you are the ones overreacting to our words. Unless someone writes "season is over, this team sucks, there is absolutely zero hope"...then it's just venting. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:35 PM
Yeah but that is going to be a steal when he finally is playing the role he is comfortable with off the bench.

...oh. He's already on the bench. Right. Uhh...him and Plumlee probably have the highest combined vertical leaps of any two teammates. So we've got that going for us.

I agree. Green is off to a slow start, but I think he'll be a great addition off the bench. Ian too. Plumlee could be decent. DJ, Hans and Young...just terrible.

croz24
11-07-2012, 11:35 PM
Vogel will be given at least until the end of this year, but it's been apparent since day one that he is simply not an X's and O's coach. Yes, you can win with coaches who strictly motivate and get their team to play hard night in and night out, however there is zero room for error with this style of coaching. Once a team quits or doesn't give their all for this kind of coach, he has nothing left to fall back on and this is the kind of play you get.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:37 PM
They were gassed because they had to play the whole 3rd quarter. they played the whole 3rd quarter because our bench would undoubtedly have lost the lead anyway.

Right you are, but they would have been fresh for the 4th and probably wouldn't have screwed it at the end. When the 3rd was winding down and the starters were still in. I seriously said "uh oh" out loud.

I've got a bad feeling about this...4th quarter. The force is always right!

rabid
11-07-2012, 11:37 PM
We're upset, we are venting, it's part of the healing process, let it happen.

Five games into the season? ***** Christ.

rock747
11-07-2012, 11:38 PM
Five games into the season? ***** Christ.

When is the proper amount of games in when a fan can be upset?

clownskull
11-07-2012, 11:40 PM
They were gassed because they had to play the whole 3rd quarter. they played the whole 3rd quarter because our bench would undoubtedly have lost the lead anyway.

that and the whole double overtime game too. i don't remember if vogel brought in any fresh legs in that time either- i don't think he did. several of our starters in that game played nearly 48 minutes that night.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:40 PM
Could be worse. Hornets scored just 62pts without their top 2 picks. Ouch. That team is seriously awful without 2 *****ing rookies.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:47 PM
Lance should def start.

Hill, Lance, PG, West, Hibbs.

I thought Young would be solid. Man, that dude has one of the worst shots I've ever seen and when he passes, instant TO.

rabid
11-07-2012, 11:48 PM
When is the proper amount of games in when a fan can be upset?

You have every right to be upset, it's a free country.

I have an equal right to think you guys are flipping out. There are 77 more games to play this season.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:48 PM
Another positive...PG only had 3TOs! Heading in the right direction with those.

3rdStrike
11-07-2012, 11:50 PM
Honestly, I don't have any idea why Augustin is so bad here in Indy but pretty decent on the Bobcats. The Bobcats Starting Lineup can't be any worse then the Pacers 2nd unit :shrug:

Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. It's obviously the coaching. He had perhaps the worst assemblage of talent in NBA history around him last year and still managed to look decent. He's got much better talent (on paper) around him now but that doesn't really mean much when they run you out there with the entire 2nd unit and give you horrible playcalls.

Anyway, I like how people are closing the door on Green, Augustin, etc when our returning starters (West excluded) have been so pathetic. Sure, blame the new guys. It's not their fault Paul George averages more turnovers than free throw attempts (is this real life? who does that?), not their fault George Hill had 2 of the worst turnovers I've seen in a game so far this season in the 1st half (to his credit, he made up for it with his offense and he's basically still in preseason mode since he was hurt). Not their fault Big Money Roy is a single digit scoring machine who shoots 6 foot hook shots and never contests a jumper. Not their fault West lights it up but then doesn't touch the ball after he returns from the bench. Not their fault Paul George is a 6'10 SG who routinely passes the ball when he's being guarded by a point guard, or that he's afraid of the basket. Sure the bench has been playing poorly, but they're put in a position to fail.

Justin Tyme
11-07-2012, 11:54 PM
Ring ring ring. This is your wake up call Hibbert. You are being paid like a big time player how about playing like one! Sorry, if I hurt your fragile mental feelings with my post, but you need to start earning your salary. You know, the one your agent duped Walsh into signing off on.

Sparhawk
11-07-2012, 11:55 PM
Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. It's obviously the coaching. He had perhaps the worst assemblage of talent in NBA history around him last year and still managed to look decent. He's got much better talent (on paper) around him now but that doesn't really mean much when they run you out there with the entire 2nd unit and give you horrible playcalls.

Anyway, I like how people are closing the door on Green, Augustin, etc when our returning starters (West excluded) have been so pathetic. Sure, blame the new guys. It's not their fault Paul George averages more turnovers than free throw attempts (is this real life? who does that?), not their fault George Hill had 2 of the worst turnovers I've seen in a game so far this season in the 1st half (to his credit, he made up for it with his offense and he's basically still in preseason mode since he was hurt). Not their fault Big Money Roy is a single digit scoring machine who shoots 6 foot hook shots and never contests a jumper. Not their fault West lights it up but then doesn't touch the ball after he returns from the bench. Not their fault Paul George is a 6'10 SG who routinely passes the ball when he's being guarded by a point guard, or that he's afraid of the basket. Sure the bench has been playing poorly, but they're put in a position to fail.

Def coaching. The Pacers are where pgs go to die.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2012, 12:00 AM
that and the whole double overtime game too. i don't remember if vogel brought in any fresh legs in that time either- i don't think he did. several of our starters in that game played nearly 48 minutes that night.


Vogel played the starters except Stepnenson for Green in the 4th and both OT's. Those 5 guys were absolutely gassed. I was surprised they won the game.

Trader Joe
11-08-2012, 12:03 AM
I don't care if he's hurt, Danny is still the face of this franchise. Roy does not deserve that title.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2012, 12:05 AM
The Pacers are where pgs go to die.


Makes one wonder if that isn't a valid statement.

Dece
11-08-2012, 12:06 AM
I haven't read this thread yet, had to take a walk so pissed at how awful we are. Fact number 1 of max contracts: if your best reason for giving a max contract is: You have to do it. It's a bad contract. Period. You've already called it a bad contract. People never argued for Hibbert because he's a perennial all star first. They didn't argue for him because he's a dominant performer first. Sure, his fans would make those arguments EVENTUALLY, but the first argument was always, "you have to match." Interestingly the second argument was, "the community loves him!"

Weird how neither of those arguments say anything about his basketball ability.

Hibbert is really, really tall. He'll always make a defensive impact. He isn't a complete schlub. Never in his career has he shown that he won't vanish on offense. That he is capable of taking a game over. That he is dominant. Fact is, we overpaid, and that's going to hurt us a long time. Overpaid for Hill too, which will also hurt us - no one has ever given a good reason for rushing to sign a RFA to a 40M dollar offer competing against... no one. Oh well. It's spilled milk now, Granger is out and two of our next 3 best players are overpaid. Not sure we can even expect more than to hang around the 7-8 seed. If that.

clownskull
11-08-2012, 12:08 AM
Def coaching. The Pacers are where pgs go to die.

i was looking at colison to see how he is doing and wow- he IS starting to look like the guy we traded for now that he is gone. putting up some impressive numbers. then augustin was doing well and then he comes here and now he is looking pretty bad. and i have noticed that although granger is out, p.g. has taken over the role of volume chucker. besides the 1st game where he didn't take a single 3, he has taken about 50% of his shots from downtown (not liking that much). at some point one must look at what system the coach is running (if there is one)
i just don't see anything that looks like plays after timeouts were drawn up with any reason or purpose with what i keep seeing. either players routinely go rogue and ignore him or there isn't much of a real plan.
i have joined the suspects of vogel. i am skeptical he can get the job done. he is going to have to impress me soon or i will be among those who would be fine to let him walk after this year.

Sparhawk
11-08-2012, 12:11 AM
i was looking at colison to see how he is doing and wow- he IS starting to look like the guy we traded for now that he is gone. putting up some impressive numbers. then augustin was doing well and then he comes here and now he is looking pretty bad. and i have noticed that although granger is out, p.g. has taken over the role of volume chucker. besides the 1st game where he didn't take a single 3, he has taken about 50% of his shots from downtown (not liking that much). at some point one must look at what system the coach is running (if there is one)
i just don't see anything that looks like plays after timeouts were drawn up with any reason or purpose with what i keep seeing. either players routinely go rogue and ignore him or there isn't much of a real plan.
i have joined the suspects of vogel. i am skeptical he can get the job done. he is going to have to impress me soon or i will be among those who would be fine to let him walk after this year.

Isn't Vogel just running a version of JOBs system...which proved to not work.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 12:13 AM
@MikeWellsNBA: Vogel rode Lance too long. He couldn't guard Korver off screens and definitely couldn't guard Teague. Shows lack of faith in bench


Yep the bench that was upgraded ....

Trader Joe
11-08-2012, 12:15 AM
You guys can focus on the bench all you want, but the dude we are paying max money just got us 9,7 and shot 33% from the field. So yeah....He also did this in 37 minutes which is really bad per minute production.

CableKC
11-08-2012, 12:41 AM
@MikeWellsNBA: Vogel rode Lance too long. He couldn't guard Korver off screens and definitely couldn't guard Teague. Shows lack of faith in bench

Yep the bench that was upgraded ....
It also shows that he doesn't consider Lance one of the Bench guys that he doesn't have any faith in....which is a good thing.

Jessen
11-08-2012, 01:12 AM
The team looks lifeless. I feel sick after watching that game. I think it's going to be a very long season.

croz24
11-08-2012, 01:17 AM
I don't care if he's hurt, Danny is still the face of this franchise. Roy does not deserve that title.

There is no face of the franchise, and thus our primary problem over the last 8 years.

GrangerRanger
11-08-2012, 01:44 AM
I'm still being optimistic, even after the fourth quarter let down we all had to witness. This was a mental lapse tonight. Nothing more. Nothing less. Our offense stinks right now. Roy Hibbert is in a funk. But let me get one thing straight.. I'm absolutely thrilled, in love, and beyond impressed with our level of defense. I don't care what anyone says. I really don't. We didn't make a crucial stop tonight (poor communication between George and West), and we allowed them back in the game. But when can't hit the broad side of a barn with a 22, your defense will suffer. Specially in the 4th quarter. And honestly, our defense during that stretch wasn't absolutely terrible (Korver hit that 3 to put them within 3 with about 4 minutes to go.. they were still down 1 with about 1 minute left).

Maybe it's rust. Maybe it's coaching kinks. Maybe it's Granger gone. Maybe it's Roy Hibbert's funk. Maybe it's the new bench adjusting. Maybe it's the absence of a signee (ala Pietrus). Or maybe it's Paul George not asserting himself. Either way.. all you naysayers are going to be absolutely dumbfounded once this offense clicks to be paired with this defense we got going on.

GetBuckets
11-08-2012, 01:59 AM
My god I haven't posted in almost a year, but everyone needs to back away from the cliff.

The team's best player is out and almost half the players on the roster are new. NEWS FLASH look at how the Lakers and thunder are playing right now. Look at even how Miami played when they first got the big three together. When teams make a lot of moves they tend to start off fairly slow.

Are there some valid points being made here, sure, but you are all overreacting like we're playing for Cody Zeller or something. Look it is obvious to me that we overpaid Roy, Vogel isn't showing much offensive strategy, and Lance has probably earned a starting or more significant role than he started with.

But the bench? Are you guys kidding me!? Lou was horrendous when he first got here, Barbosa couldn't play any defense, and Collison didn't realize half the time that there were other people on the fast break with him, plus he couldn't guard a pick and roll if his life depended on it. Don't get me started on Dahntay. He was the best Pacemate at Bankerslife and that was about all he was worth.

All I'm getting at is you at least have to give a team 25 games or so to see what they have. At this point do things look iffy? Yeah that's fair, but it really isn't going to get any worse and there have definitely been some positives to build from. Even in the Spurs game they cut a huge lead down going into the half.

Goosefraba my fellow PDers, I promise you things will get better and the team should be fighting for the 4-6 seed.

SIR-LANCE-ALOT
11-08-2012, 02:42 AM
i agree that we have been getting out coached!!! Vogel is a nice guy, but doesnt make adjustments very well and horrible X's and O's

imawhat
11-08-2012, 04:11 AM
Honestly, I don't have any idea why Augustin is so bad here in Indy but pretty decent on the Bobcats. The Bobcats Starting Lineup can't be any worse then the Pacers 2nd unit :shrug:

He was pretty bad in Charlotte too, despite his stats. It's still early, but on a fundamental level we had a pretty bad offseason. If our bench keeps playing like this it would be one of our worst offseasons ever but I think we'll come around.

We'll eventually play better but we're bad right now. Hibbert improved so much on his moves that I think he'll have his best season, despite this terribly slow start. I know he was offended over the offseason by a reporter asking him if he was out of shape, but I have to wonder now. He looks really out of shape. I know he highly publicized his MMA workouts, and there's really no replacement for actual games, but this looks like the worst shape he's been in since year 2.

I've had my Sam Young fix. I'm ready to see Lance in with the starters, who all played better when Lance was in the mix.

George Hill shoots way, way, way too many three pointers. He's a really good shooter but he's too talented with his mid-range to let it go to waste. It doesn't appear as exaggerated because he's a wing player, but it's just as frustrating as watching Josh Smith of years past jack up a bunch of threes when he's clearly a much better player inside the arc.

We'll get better pretty soon, but everyones' reasoning for freaking out right now is justified.

xtacy
11-08-2012, 05:48 AM
Why is everyone going after Vogel?! It's obvious the team was downgraded by the front office. It's been evident since the first 3 games. we all thought this after the moves happened intially but the Pacer's propaganda made us believe otherwise. We didn't want to spend money to get better... OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee etc. We made small town moves and we get **** results.


Larry birds not coming back to this ****...

because our offense sucks and it's vogel's fault. he wouldn't be able to draw a play even if his life depends on it.


I can still see posters in a few months saying........"be patient.......it's only been 50 games". LOL

definitely.


By the way what are the Pacers going to do with all those long term contracts if it doesn't work out? are we gonna have to wait until they expired?

i don't think we have other option. with the way they play i don't see a team getting them.


I haven't read this thread yet, had to take a walk so pissed at how awful we are. Fact number 1 of max contracts: if your best reason for giving a max contract is: You have to do it. It's a bad contract. Period. You've already called it a bad contract. People never argued for Hibbert because he's a perennial all star first. They didn't argue for him because he's a dominant performer first. Sure, his fans would make those arguments EVENTUALLY, but the first argument was always, "you have to match." Interestingly the second argument was, "the community loves him!"

Weird how neither of those arguments say anything about his basketball ability.

Hibbert is really, really tall. He'll always make a defensive impact. He isn't a complete schlub. Never in his career has he shown that he won't vanish on offense. That he is capable of taking a game over. That he is dominant. Fact is, we overpaid, and that's going to hurt us a long time. Overpaid for Hill too, which will also hurt us - no one has ever given a good reason for rushing to sign a RFA to a 40M dollar offer competing against... no one. Oh well. It's spilled milk now, Granger is out and two of our next 3 best players are overpaid. Not sure we can even expect more than to hang around the 7-8 seed. If that.

so true.

Pacemaker
11-08-2012, 06:16 AM
Gerald Green makes the most stupid passes. Meh!

McKeyFan
11-08-2012, 08:02 AM
Trust me I've been saying the same thing for a long time, my thinking at the time was that I thought they were opening space for a guy like Brand or Scola and as we know nothing happened :kickcan:

I agree with this post per se, but am I wrong in saying that Scola and Brand actually would replace two players that are actually performing for us--West and Hans?

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 09:01 AM
I agree with this post per se, but am I wrong in saying that Scola and Brand actually would replace two players that are actually performing for us--West and Hans?

The idea was for either one of them to play in the place of Mahinmi.

McKeyFan
11-08-2012, 09:43 AM
The idea was for either one of them to play in the place of Mahinmi.

Brand I can see. Isn't Scola a 4?

Since86
11-08-2012, 10:23 AM
You guys calling for Lou Amoundson back, and being serious about it.
:picard:

aamcguy
11-08-2012, 11:39 AM
Is there any place that regularly posts videos of after game locker room interviews? I watch all my games on LP, and they seem to have a personal vendetta against the Indy announcers so I don't even get in-game player interviews. I mean 0 for 5 on the season? Really? Last season they were usually up on Pacers.com, but they seem to have completely reworked their staff and the site just sucks right now.

BillS
11-08-2012, 11:45 AM
because our offense sucks and it's vogel's fault. he wouldn't be able to draw a play even if his life depends on it.

At this point I agree to an extent (You don't draw new plays in a game, you alter existing ones - but I don't think we have effective existing ones).

To be fair, though, if he DID draw a play, we'd probably brick the shot.

Ace E.Anderson
11-08-2012, 12:02 PM
At this point I agree to an extent (You don't draw new plays in a game, you alter existing ones - but I don't think we have effective existing ones).

To be fair, though, if he DID draw a play, we'd probably brick the shot.

We had 3 wide open 3 pt attempts when we were clinging to a 2 pt lead (Lance, Hill, and Paul) all were short

sam kaiserblade
11-08-2012, 12:20 PM
Glad we played hard and fought. Starters had tired legs in the 4th nd that zone killed us.

Now my overreaction....
1. We should've let Roy and his charmin soft a** go to Por. I'd rather have signed or traded for a big that'll give me 8 and 8 for 1/4 of the price.
2. Paul George has zero cajones.
3. Outside of West, Hill, and Lance, this team needs to go see a sports psychiatrist or something.
4. Green? Ha. Mahinmi? Haha. Young?! HOW'RE YOU IN THE LEAGUE?! Lol. This bench is a joke
5. Vogel is an idiot. Anybody with any type of IQ could see that Lance should play with the starters. Yet he decides to start Yung (no O) THEN he allowed us to go THAT LONG without a FG before trying to set up some plays against that zone. I love how he's changed our culture, but he's having the same probs over and over. Eff smashmouth, eff championship passing, eff all the talk...draw up ONE offensive possession that works lol.

Okay I'm back. And i truly am proud of our effort. Time to bunker down and come together. Go pacers

I'm starting to think Vogel is the Pacers version of Mike Davis. Early success but obviously flawed coach.

joew8302
11-08-2012, 12:32 PM
I am not going to argue that our offense is good, or anything close to it, but it is not all Vogel's fault.

For example, there was a timeout about midway through the 4th quarter when Atlanta was in that zone. After the timeout there were two inbounds passes, great player movement, and Hibbert ends up with a 5 ft hook at the basket and misses it.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2012, 12:40 PM
Maybe it's rust. Maybe it's coaching kinks. Maybe it's Granger gone. Maybe it's Roy Hibbert's funk. Maybe it's the new bench adjusting. Maybe it's the absence of a signee (ala Pietrus). Or maybe it's Paul George not asserting himself. Either way.. all you naysayers are going to be absolutely dumbfounded once this offense clicks to be paired with this defense we got going on.


Or it could be a combination of all those things which makes it hard to straighten out. I' saw some improvement in last nights game, but I just had the air knocked out of me losing a game that the Pacers led by 14 points with 6 minutes to play. Then only being able to score 9 stinking points in the 4th qtr! Just UNBELEIVEABLE! That hurt far more than being beaten by the Puddycats.

Naptown_Seth
11-08-2012, 12:48 PM
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Can we just stay focused on that for a bit before we meltdown. Only because the dude deserves the attention and praise. So much for not being worth $10m to bring back for the people that doubted him. West might be the team's new Reggie, not great on defense but capable of making a few helpful plays at that end and clearly the one guy that can get tough buckets when nothing's working.

I freaking love his game more than ever. The moves, style and shots he makes is a thing of fundamental low post beauty.

Maybe he's the rose growing in the manure pile right now, but we can still appreciate it. Maybe even more than normal explicitly because of the contrast to everything else we are seeing.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2012, 12:53 PM
We had 3 wide open 3 pt attempts when we were clinging to a 2 pt lead (Lance, Hill, and Paul) all were short


Short shots are indicitive of being tired. Vogel is riding his starters to death.

Naptown_Seth
11-08-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm not saying our season is done or ruined or anything like that, but I will say the bench has me deeply, deeply concerned.

I'm also a little concerned, but much more confused. We just saw all 4 of these guys playing much better. I realize it's preseason but clearly Mahinmi could handle the ball, had (still has) great footwork, and was a step quicker than darn near every big he faced. Suddenly he's fumbling passes and dribbles and looks like he's a step behind every play mentally. And DJ was making great passes and the guys loved his practice passing and suddenly the lights go on and he looks like he's never touched a basketball?

It's weird. These 4 bench guys are 100% better than this. But it looks like they just met 2 days ago when they are on the court.

Since86
11-08-2012, 01:01 PM
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Can we just stay focused on that for a bit before we meltdown. Only because the dude deserves the attention and praise. So much for not being worth $10m to bring back for the people that doubted him. West might be the team's new Reggie, not great on defense but capable of making a few helpful plays at that end and clearly the one guy that can get tough buckets when nothing's working.

I freaking love his game more than ever. The moves, style and shots he makes is a thing of fundamental low post beauty.

Maybe he's the rose growing in the manure pile right now, but we can still appreciate it. Maybe even more than normal explicitly because of the contrast to everything else we are seeing.

The only thing about DWest that I'm doubting right now, his is ability to take control. If the players around him aren't smart enough to figure out that he's the horse that they need to ride, then he (or preferably Frank) need grab a hold of the reins and forcibly take control.

Abandoning the style of play that you've established, and returning back to JOB-ball, is really disheartening.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 01:03 PM
I'm also a little concerned, but much more confused. We just saw all 4 of these guys playing much better. I realize it's preseason but clearly Mahinmi could handle the ball, had (still has) great footwork, and was a step quicker than darn near every big he faced. Suddenly he's fumbling passes and dribbles and looks like he's a step behind every play mentally. And DJ was making great passes and the guys loved his practice passing and suddenly the lights go on and he looks like he's never touched a basketball?

It's weird. These 4 bench guys are 100% better than this. But it looks like they just met 2 days ago when they are on the court.

It was PRE-SEASON.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 01:05 PM
The only thing about DWest that I'm doubting right now, his is ability to take control. If the players around him aren't smart enough to figure out that he's the horse that they need to ride, then he (or preferably Frank) need grab a hold of the reins and forcibly take control.

Abandoning the style of play that you've established, and returning back to JOB-ball, is really disheartening.

I think they over use him in the first 3 quarters and he didn't have anything left on the 4th, he scored must of his point in the first half, not only that but teams are smart enough to remove the West Iso option, I was actually surprised that they didn't put Zaza on him.

Since86
11-08-2012, 01:15 PM
If West can't play for 30mins then the Pacers are in deep trouble. Him being tired wasn't the issue, the lack of getting him shots most definitely was.

He shot the ball 3 times in the 4th. Twice within the first minute and the last came with less than a second. Unacceptable.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 01:21 PM
If West can't play for 30mins then the Pacers are in deep trouble. Him being tired wasn't the issue, the lack of getting him shots most definitely was.

He shot the ball 3 times in the 4th. Twice within the first minute and the last came with less than a second. Unacceptable.

The guy looked tired to me at the end of the 3rd quarter(Vogel brought Tyler in for him), he still got the ball few times on the 4th and Atlanta was smart enough to double him and make him pass the ball.

Trader Joe
11-08-2012, 01:22 PM
I agree with Vnzla's point it'd be nice if we were paying somebody a lot of money to take some of the pressure off West inside.

Since86
11-08-2012, 01:29 PM
Being too tired isn't a good excuse, regardless if you believe it or not. West played 36mins last night. His career average is 32, with 4 seasons averaging more minutes than he played last night.

You keep punching the ball inside, rather than taking **** poor jumpshots. That was the reason why he was brought in, to have a consistant low post scorer. Use it.

That or guards need to start attacking the basket. Settling for jumpshots killed them last night, and that lesson should have been learned a long time ago.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 01:33 PM
By the way I was going to comment on this during the game but it looked to me like Atlanta was letting West get his in the first half as an strategy, it's known that teams do this as an strategy so the rest of the team doesn't get involved(Pop is an expert at this), I think is possible that teams are doing this as a way to keep Roy and others out of the picture, because as we know Roy is guy that needs some shots to go in to get it going.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 01:38 PM
Being too tired isn't a good excuse, regardless if you believe it or not. West played 36mins last night. His career average is 32, with 4 seasons averaging more minutes than he played last night.

You keep punching the ball inside, rather than taking **** poor jumpshots. That was the reason why he was brought in, to have a consistant low post scorer. Use it.

That or guards need to start attacking the basket. Settling for jumpshots killed them last night, and that lesson should have been learned a long time ago.

You can punch it inside all you want but at some point the play call is going to be stuffed after 20 times, there has to be more options, more ball movement, giving the ball to West 100 times per game is not an offense.

Since86
11-08-2012, 01:46 PM
They didn't punch the ball inside during the 4th quarter at all last night, that was the problem. You're
arguing they did it too much, when they didn't do it at all. Stop and think about that for a moment.

Options are needed, most definitely. But the Pacers weren't using any of their options last night, that's what I'm saying.

When the offense starts to crumble, you go back to your best option.

Sparhawk
11-08-2012, 01:47 PM
I think they need to get Lance some post-ups. Dude is a train, should be able to get down low and make things happen.

CJ Jones
11-08-2012, 01:49 PM
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Can we just stay focused on that for a bit before we meltdown. Only because the dude deserves the attention and praise. So much for not being worth $10m to bring back for the people that doubted him. West might be the team's new Reggie, not great on defense but capable of making a few helpful plays at that end and clearly the one guy that can get tough buckets when nothing's working.

I freaking love his game more than ever. The moves, style and shots he makes is a thing of fundamental low post beauty.

Maybe he's the rose growing in the manure pile right now, but we can still appreciate it. Maybe even more than normal explicitly because of the contrast to everything else we are seeing.

I love his offense too, but we shouldn't act like he doesn't deserve any of the blame for what's going on right now. His effort defensively has been poor to say the least this season. When you're getting beat down the court by ZaZa Pachulia after a score then you're not trying hard enough. His PnR defense, as well as Roy's, has been awful. They're not calling out screens, they're not stepping up on shooters. It doesn't help our guys awareness recognizing when a screens coming and getting around them is embarrassingly bad, but the bigs aren't helping them out even a little.

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 01:59 PM
They didn't punch the ball inside during the 4th quarter at all last night, that was the problem. You're
arguing they did it too much, when they didn't do it at all. Stop and think about that for a moment.

Options are needed, most definitely. But the Pacers weren't using any of their options last night, that's what I'm saying.

When the offense starts to crumble, you go back to your best option.

They punched the ball inside during the first half and they did it again during the 3rd and 4th quarter but this time Atlanta was ready to double team, remember that some of those passes ended up back in Hill's hands and he was able to make the open 3.

And yes you can go back to your best option but if the other team already knows what you are going to do with your best option you are going to fail using it.

Since86
11-08-2012, 02:00 PM
So you think that the Pacers played inside-out during the last quarter? I gotta wonder what game I was watching, because I saw a lot of ball movement and dribbling around the perimeter by guards resulting in a lot of jumpshots.

jtroub8
11-08-2012, 02:10 PM
I have missed the last 2 games so I havent been able to see how PG played but for some people on here to say "He's just going to be a 14-16 ppg player because he hasnt stepped up these first 5 games!" is just ridiculous to me. PG is 22 and spends A LOT of energy of the D side. He has improved every year and it's WAAAAAAAAAAAY to early to tell what type of player he will grow to be. Not everybody is KD or Lebron and just light it up from the beginning and esp asking a 3rd year player that has been the 4-5th option on O to all of a sudden become all world! I am way more concerned with Hibbert's play, if you want to call that play!! Having said all that the P's def look to be in trouble early going, hopefully they will settle down over the next couple games. Vogel def needs to work on drawing up some plays or just be relieved of those duties lol Go P's!!

vnzla81
11-08-2012, 02:12 PM
So you think that the Pacers played inside-out during the last quarter? I gotta wonder what game I was watching, because I saw a lot of ball movement and dribbling around the perimeter by guards resulting in a lot of jumpshots.

They had some touches inside but they were not able to do anything, again Atlanta was ready to double and front West on the 4th quarter, that is why you don't show all your cards in the 1st quarter.

McKeyFan
11-08-2012, 04:46 PM
They had some touches inside but they were not able to do anything, again Atlanta was ready to double and front West on the 4th quarter, that is why you don't show all your cards in the 1st quarter.

You do if it's your only card.

I agree with what's been said a few times: finally we had a game where in two or three quarters we had some decent offensive movement. Yes, it got shut down in the fourth. So we have a ways to go. But it sure beats games 1 through 4.