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Peck
11-06-2012, 03:27 AM
I’d love to tell you that this isn’t what I expected but I would be lying. After watching us struggle through the first three games vs. less than stellar teams I fully expected this type of performance vs. one of the better teams in the league.

I know some have said that we are over reacting and that there are really extenuating circumstances for our play but right now our offense is as bad as any year Jim O’Brien was at the helm. Just look at the amount of 3 point shots we have taken in these first four games and you can tell our offense is just in shambles.

How much is Frank vs. how much is it the players vs. how much is it teams have adjusted is up to debate, but what can’t be debated is that we are a heroic David West 4th quarter effort & a double over time season home opening game away from being 0-4.

We have not looked good as a unit for any length of time in any of our four games and our offense is just, well I don’t even have a good enough adjective for it. Well a line in the old spinal tap movie comes to mind about what a music reviewer called their album “Shark Sandwich”.

I think it’s time to break out the sports psychologist again for Roy. While he is there he might as well bring Paul along for some sessions.

I know that we are probably putting to much faith in these two but talk about shrink under pressure. Both of these guys were supposed to step up & take over for Granger and while Paul has not played poorly (other than this game, which I think he played poorly in) he hasn’t stood up and taken over either.

At this point in time it looks like we all may want to reevaluate how good Danny Granger actually is because my God without him we went from being a top 5 team in the NBA to now I’m wondering if we can end up being in the top 8 in the East. Hell he may be closer to Carmelo than I thought he was.

I don’t have a lot of time & frankly even if I did I just don’t have a lot to say that wouldn’t be deemed a knee jerk reaction so we’ll just briefly hit the good the bad & the ugly.

The Good: Yes believe it or not there was some.

First David West was working the boards harder than I’ve seen him work it in a long time. I know he had a great night vs. the Kings but he really was grabbing glass tonight as well.

Second while he wasn’t always effective George Hill certainly doesn’t shy away from a challenge & he really tried to get the team going.

Third Sam Young didn’t make any dumb passes (believe me if you saw the Kings game this is a huge improvement).
That’s it, that was the entirety of our good stuff.

The Bad: I’ll be as kind as I can.

Roy Hibbert. That’s really all I can say, he was just bad period. Uninspired & frankly you could tell early on Duncan was in his head. We would have been better just letting West & Tyler play together.

D.J. Augustin, I don’t care that he hit two three’s & one free throw his defense was so atrocious that Troy Murphy was offended. Neal just abused him over & over & over again and he just kept letting him get wherever he wanted to go. I was ready for Ben Hansbrough to come in much earlier than he did.

Lance Stephenson, sigh…. I guess it’s going to be home game hero road game zero with him.

The ugly:

Have you ever actually looked at Sam Young?

Wednesday is going to be a test. If they sack up they could go in and take out the Hawks but right now I believe that the offense is so bad and frankly we are going to be discombobulated so badly by our play that I look for Atlanta to take us out by at least 10.

Here is a brief video review of what it was like to watch that game.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tJl3ZAg6mj0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TheDavisBrothers
11-06-2012, 04:58 AM
Frank Vogel: The players all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Mike Wells: Oh, I see. And most teams go up to ten?
Frank Vogel: Exactly.
Mike Wells: Does that mean it's better? Is it any better?
Frank Vogel: Well, it's one better, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most teams, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on the court. Where can you go from there? Where?
Mike Wells: I don't know.
Frank Vogel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Mike Wells: Put it up to eleven.
Frank Vogel: Eleven. Exactly. One better.
Mike Wells: Why don't you just make ten better and make ten be the top number and make that a little better?
Frank Vogel: [pause] These go to eleven.

Let's all hope the team comes back refocused, so it can start playing the type of smashmouth basketball that put it up to eleven...:D

able
11-06-2012, 07:10 AM
If only this team had the quality of a Marshall.

Sorry, I put it squarely on the coach, what good is a big man in the post if you make him camp outside and have no one who can get the ball into the post.
and no West does not play a post game, most his stuff is done outside as well.
The number of 3pt shots tells you we're an outside team, not inside out.

Yes DG is that important, but the fact that we have a SG for a PG that can NOT get the ball in the post, and calls his own number once or trice to many is not on Hibbert.
He's a big, ignore hm 4 or 5 times up the court and he wonders why he is running up and down, may as well hang for the defense.

Unclebuck
11-06-2012, 07:37 AM
Yes, to be expected.

I consider myself a Pacers fan and an NBA fan and I must say watching the Spurs last night was like watching a clinic - Pacers are not in their class right now at all. I enjoy watching good basketball and last night the Spurs showed the pacers how it is done.

owl
11-06-2012, 08:26 AM
Yes, to be expected.

I consider myself a Pacers fan and an NBA fan and I must say watching the Spurs last night was like watching a clinic - Pacers are not in their class right now at all. I anjoy watching good basketball and last night the Spurs showed the pacers how it is done.

Whatever happened to smash mouth basketball? So what if the Spurs were trying to deny the inside. Force the issue because what they are doing now is certainly not working. I have never seen such poor execution. The Pacers average 20 turnovers a game.

Ace E.Anderson
11-06-2012, 08:30 AM
If only this team had the quality of a Marshall.

Sorry, I put it squarely on the coach, what good is a big man in the post if you make him camp outside and have no one who can get the ball into the post.
and no West does not play a post game, most his stuff is done outside as well.
The number of 3pt shots tells you we're an outside team, not inside out.

Yes DG is that important, but the fact that we have a SG for a PG that can NOT get the ball in the post, and calls his own number once or trice to many is not on Hibbert.
He's a big, ignore hm 4 or 5 times up the court and he wonders why he is running up and down, may as well hang for the defense.

Hill got the ball into Roy on the first 3-5 possessions of the game and Roy couldn't hold off Duncan and turned the ball over. That's NOT on the passer, it's on the post man to seal his defender. Then the few times he did get the ball, he made a half a**ed hook shot attempt that led to a Spurs break.

Unclebuck
11-06-2012, 08:31 AM
The Spurs are a smart team that is coached at a different level than most teams - So yeah they were ready to take the Pacers out of what they wanted to do

Brad8888
11-06-2012, 08:55 AM
It was troubling over the summer when Vogel said that he wanted the Pacers to shoot more 3's to open up the interior. It is plain that he had them work on that.

Now, the test for Vogel and his alleged head coach quality assistants is to look and see why this O'Brien theory of basketball simply is too unreliable to work in the NBA without ball and player movement. Overall, the Pacers had similar issues last year as well, but other teams had no off season or practice time and had little chance to adjust to the Pacers. Now, they have, and even poor teams have hung with the Pacers as a result.

Despite the interior getting boards (along with Paul, obviously), "smashmouth" has consisted of one quarter of David West imposing his will against an inferior team. Is it the lack of true hustle players that has caused this degradation, or is it the lack of reinforcement of fundamentals of footwork in Roy and our other young bigs due to still having no actual big man coach?

In the absence of "smashmouth", what is the alternative? Isos and two man games which decent defenders and average NBA teams can adjust for easily, or a quality passing attack to create space and scoring opportunities? Let's see what our coaching staff ends up picking. :shudder:

hackashaq
11-06-2012, 09:09 AM
The Spurs are a smart team that is coached at a different level than most teams - So yeah they were ready to take the Pacers out of what they wanted to do

Yep. And despite how bad we looked, i just couldn't get too upset. The Spurs are something to admire, still.
We stayed within 10-15 for most of the game, without Danny, and with most of the other guys seemingly in a funk. Fair enough.

Brinocerous
11-06-2012, 09:17 AM
Hill got the ball into Roy on the first 3-5 possessions of the game and Roy couldn't hold off Duncan and turned the ball over. That's NOT on the passer, it's on the post man to seal his defender. Then the few times he did get the ball, he made a half a**ed hook shot attempt that led to a Spurs break.

A not insignificant problem on those possessions was that once the ball made it in to Roy, our offensive movement came to a screeching halt. No back screens. No cutters flashing to the basket. Just a bunch of guys who can't hit an outside shot standing around.

Justin Tyme
11-06-2012, 09:52 AM
IIRC, the only shot Hibbert hit was a tip in. He started his moves too far out from the basket and his shots were short. That's on Hibbert. Hibbert is not a mentally tough player and never has been. Hibbert's agent must be commended on getting Hibbert a big contract for a player who doesn't have the mental toughness to be a player who gets paid the big bucks. A 6'7" Blair, a big who comes off the bench, played better with a double double at a fraction of the cost. If things don't change with Hibbert, he's going to be another of Walsh's overpaid re-signs. Imagine that!

I realize it's only 4 games into the season, but Hibbert is by far the biggest disappointment on this team. He needs to start playing the way he got paid! Big time!

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 10:02 AM
IIRC, the only shot Hibbert hit was a tip in. He started his moves too far out from the basket and his shots were short. That's on Hibbert. Hibbert is not a mentally tough player and never has been. Hibbert's agent must be commended on getting Hibbert a big contract for a player who doesn't have the mental toughness to be a player who gets paid the big bucks. A 6'7" Blair, a big who comes off the bench, played better with a double double at a fraction of the cost. If things don't change with Hibbert, he's going to be another of Walsh's overpaid re-signs. Imagine that!

I realize it's only 4 games into the season, but Hibbert is by far the biggest disappointment on this team. He needs to start playing the way he got paid! Big time!

Yeah, he tipped in a rebound late to get his made basket.

I'm shocked at people trying to pass the blame for his performance on to anything but him. Players have bad games, he had one. (Hopefully) end of story.

Big opportunity to rebound against a solid ATL team, Hibbert needs to show up against Horford/Smith.

aamcguy
11-06-2012, 10:05 AM
It wouldn't affect much, but Hibbert has actually been getting good position under the basket. But if he doesn't immediately get the ball, he ducks out of the paint for fear of the 3 second violation.

On offense when the play is run specifically for him, he sets up outside the paint to let the feeder run by him. Most times he moves his pivot foot outside of the paint as he catches it. I think every now and then just running a play for him to score right away without letting the defense know exactly what is happening would be good for him.

BillS
11-06-2012, 10:23 AM
In the pregame, Wells suggested that they have a practice where they do nothing but pass the ball. Pass, pass, pass, pass, pass.

I would then have a practice where they do nothing but shoot. Shoot blind, shoot off the dribble, shoot when you catch a pass and are wide open, shoot, shoot, shoot.

And then we need to give Frank an MRI to find those lingering "play for a quick jumper" tumors and cut them out. Cut, cut, cut, cut, cut.

I don't care if you play perfect defense, you aren't going to beat the Spurs (or really ANY West team) shooting 34%.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
11-06-2012, 12:19 PM
It wouldn't affect much, but Hibbert has actually been getting good position under the basket. But if he doesn't immediately get the ball, he ducks out of the paint for fear of the 3 second violation.

On offense when the play is run specifically for him, he sets up outside the paint to let the feeder run by him. Most times he moves his pivot foot outside of the paint as he catches it. I think every now and then just running a play for him to score right away without letting the defense know exactly what is happening would be good for him.Pretty much my thoughts. We need to get Roy some easy baskets, he is not being used correctly, at all. While some of the blame is at Roy's feet (mostly because he gives up after a few bad plays), the majority of the blame has to go to our ridiculously poor passing skills.

Tell me this, if Roy is within 5 ft of the basket, what better position can he get? The problem is the post-feeder picks up their dribble and waits for "Roy to get better position". But this isn't really what the post-feeder is waiting for, they are waiting for an open passing lane. If the post-feeder picks up their dribble, and has their own defender between them and Roy, then where is the passing lane? To compound the problem, Roy's defender is now reaching over his shoulders to deny the pass or is fronting him. At this point Roy has to give up his position and come out to create an open passing lane. By the time all that happens, Roy is now being double or triple teamed and has to force up a contested shot. You can't fault him for that.

What you can fault him for is after this happens 2 or 3 times in the first quarter, Roy pretty much gives up for the rest of the game. Although I did see him make several uncontested cuts to the the basket last night, but again our ball handlers couldn't get him the ball or just ignored him.

Eleazar
11-06-2012, 12:23 PM
Yeah, he tipped in a rebound late to get his made basket.

I'm shocked at people trying to pass the blame for his performance on to anything but him. Players have bad games, he had one. (Hopefully) end of story.

Big opportunity to rebound against a solid ATL team, Hibbert needs to show up against Horford/Smith.

I don't think it is that people are trying to say he didn't have a bad game. It is that people are overreacting to one bad game like he has played 4 bad games which just isn't true.