PDA

View Full Version : Pacers/Spurs postgame thread



vnzla81
11-05-2012, 11:31 PM
Horrible game overall, Hill and Tyler showed up but nothing else, where is the big guy the Pacers gave a huge contract to?

Shade
11-05-2012, 11:33 PM
All of my off-season fears are already coming into play. Right now this is not even a playoff team.

Heisenberg
11-05-2012, 11:37 PM
Colts are gonna suck for a couple years, Pacers are gonna be really good, recapture the state...

Shade
11-05-2012, 11:38 PM
Colts are gonna suck for a couple years, Pacers are gonna be really good, recapture the state...

Green?

3rdStrike
11-05-2012, 11:38 PM
The offseason was pretty much: 1. Hate on Miles Plumlee 2. Hope that the Pacers overpay for Hibbert.

With that fresh in memory, Plumlee scored as many points (2) and had as many blocks (1) as our richest player....in 3 minutes.

Yet and still, turnovers, lack of playmaking and not enough Paul George continue to be the main problems. It's early in the season but Vogel's offense looks HORRIBLE.

DemonHunter1105
11-05-2012, 11:38 PM
That was not fun but there really is not anything to freak out about yet. Our backups are still getting acquainted with the team, our starters had a bad night(well Roy and Paul anyway), and we played the Spurs at home.

**** happens. If we look this poor 10 or 15 games from now then I will start to worry.

graphic-er
11-05-2012, 11:39 PM
Hibbert might go down as one of the worst contracts in franchise history. Say what you want about JO, but he played his *** off to get that huge max deal, and played his *** off several years into that max deal before his body really started failing him. Can't say the same about Roy.

gummy
11-05-2012, 11:39 PM
I miss Tamika Catchings. I'd love to see PG or Roy play with that kind of fire and drive.

I'm trying to stay on the "it's still early and we're without Danny and have new pieces we are trying to integrate train." But this sucks, because I was soooo excited for the season to start and this is not what I expected. :kickcan:

Heisenberg
11-05-2012, 11:40 PM
Green?
not obvious?

boombaby1987
11-05-2012, 11:40 PM
It all comes down to Vogel and **** poor offensive design. Also, its really disappointing to see this little desire to do well out of Roy.

vnzla81
11-05-2012, 11:41 PM
PECK I’m not going to lie, I see this as troubling. We have played some less than stellar teams so far & unless some miracle happens on Monday I fully expect a beat down of biblical proportions from the Spurs. In fact if we lose and lose less than double digits I will probably consider it a victory.

Peck is the man.

Heisenberg
11-05-2012, 11:42 PM
I'm not about to call Roy the worst contract in franchise history, but he absolutely needs to start earning his minutes.

3rdStrike
11-05-2012, 11:42 PM
Hibbert might go down as one of the worst contracts in franchise history. Say what you want about JO, but he played his *** off to get that huge max deal, and played his *** off several years into that max deal before his body really started failing him. Can't say the same about Roy.

He's slow and very unathletic. It's not lack of effort, as much as the fact that he's not going to magically become a better player than he was last year.

LG33
11-05-2012, 11:42 PM
Yet and still, turnovers, lack of playmaking and not enough Paul George continue to be the main problems. It's early in the season but Vogel's offense looks HORRIBLE.

I didn't know there was such a thing as a turnover machine until I Google Image searched it and found one:


http://www.food-equipment.com/spm-45.pastry.turnover.jpg


Also, Paul George, at over 4.5 a game.

flox
11-05-2012, 11:42 PM
All of my off-season fears are already coming into play. Right now this is not even a playoff team.

Hm, I view this team without Granger the same way I viewed our Pacer teams pre-David West- not a playoff team. (And yes, we made the playoffs with Granger and without West, but we weren't a playoff team)

The Future
11-05-2012, 11:43 PM
Darren Collison and OJ Mayo making us pay in Dallas.

Roy Hibbert is a ghost out there, one of the worst contracts given in a long time.

George Hill is not a point guard.

Eleazar
11-05-2012, 11:43 PM
Individually we are as good or better at every position except back-up PG, except maybe Granger but we can't judge that yet. This is all Vogel. He does not have them prepared, he does not have them motivated, and worst of all he has no offense. We don't have a team full of LeBron James and Kobe Bryants who can easily create shots for themselves, but we run an offense as if that is who is on our team. It makes absolutely no sense at all. The plays can hardly be called plays. I gave him the benefit of the doubt last season, but nothing has changed.

NapTonius Monk
11-05-2012, 11:43 PM
If you'd have told me that Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili would COMBINE for less than 10 points, I'd have said we win going away. Instead, we play like an expansion ballclub. Hopefully, this jumpstarts some pride among them.

Trader Joe
11-05-2012, 11:45 PM
I would say 10 and 11 for West in 25 minutes is alright.

I really need to decide how harsh I want to be on Roy. Part of me is just flat out disgusted with him.

3rdStrike
11-05-2012, 11:46 PM
Also, Paul George, at over 4.5 a game.

I would be perfectly fine with this if he was attacking the basket, instead of giving some crappy pass to a less capable scorer. FFS, Granger was averaging like 3-for-20 for the first three weeks of last season. He's out. SHOOT THE BALL.

Biggest disappointment so far is easily Paul George, and I say this while acknowledging that he has looked more aggressive. Just not nearly enough. At this rate he's going to shrink to 8ppg when Granger comes back.

aamcguy
11-05-2012, 11:47 PM
Roy Hibbert is 4 games into a new contract and it's clear it's the worst Indiana contract of all time. We're four games into the season and are only .500, we may as well not play the other 78 games. I mean, what's the point?

NapTonius Monk
11-05-2012, 11:48 PM
Darren Collison and OJ Mayo making us pay in Dallas.

Roy Hibbert is a ghost out there, one of the worst contracts given in a long time.

George Hill is not a point guard.We're 4 games into the contract. Roy had a horriblegame tonight, but it is crazy to say his entire deal was a mistake because of the game he had tonight. Goodness, he's not immune from having a bad game. He'll snap out of it, and so will the team.

repole
11-05-2012, 11:49 PM
Roy needs to be a reliable option in the post, especially with Granger out, and that just doesn't seem to be there. I know people are disappointed with George not really stepping up as a scorer, but Roy's complete disappearing act has been far, far worse.

3rdStrike
11-05-2012, 11:49 PM
Individually we are as good or better at every position except back-up PG, except maybe Granger but we can't judge that yet. This is all Vogel. He does not have them prepared, he does not have them motivated, and worst of all he has no offense. We don't have a team full of LeBron James and Kobe Bryants who can easily create shots for themselves, but we run an offense as if that is who is on our team. It makes absolutely no sense at all. The plays can hardly be called plays. I gave him the benefit of the doubt last season, but nothing has changed.

Great post. Seriously, when DJ Augustin is getting 1/3 of the assists he had on one of the worst teams in NBA history last season and Darren Collison is about averaging a double double as soon as he gets away from Vogel, yeah. The guy is absolutely horrible at offense.

beast23
11-05-2012, 11:50 PM
...where is the big guy the Pacers gave a huge contract to?
My guess would be that he is somewhere playing hide and seek with his testicles.

Not happy at all with Hibbert right now. He needs to decide if he's going to man up or not.

How many times did we set up a man in or near the paint with an 8-10 foot shot that we then proceeded to miss? I'm not saying that we beat ourselves, but it seems as though the Spurs could give us any shot of our choosing as long as it wasn't a layin. We weren't going to make it anyway.

Dr. Hibbert
11-05-2012, 11:50 PM
This team is not smart, and consequentially, not good. Only way they make the playoffs is if Danny Granger comes back strong (really strong) or if the East is really, really weak.

vnzla81
11-05-2012, 11:50 PM
I want to blame Vogel for the crappy offense but at the same time I think about the players we have and if Vogel decided to implement the San Antonio offense the turnovers would be even worse, to me the blame is on the front office, they didn't get a player that can create for himself and didn't get players that can pass the ball or at least make simple passes.

immortality
11-05-2012, 11:51 PM
Wow. A lot of over-reaction. We probably just played one of the best teams in the NBA, who know to lock down on defense, especially against a simple offense like ours, everyone should have seen this coming, especially with Granger out.

ASkin_ANight
11-05-2012, 11:51 PM
Roy Hibbert is 4 games into a new contract and it's clear it's the worst Indiana contract of all time. We're four games into the season and are only .500, we may as well not play the other 78 games. I mean, what's the point?

Agreed! At least we can look forward to the #1 pick in the next draft.

notque
11-05-2012, 11:52 PM
An awful game that was infuriating.

Our offense is poor pick and rolls, and pick and pops to our our bigs. The only low post threat is David West.

Hill and DJ are not credible point guards. Hill is a scorer who doesn't have the feel on how to run an offense.

Granted we don't ask our PG to run the offense, as our offense consists of odd plays like..

PG runs down the floor. Throws to top of the key PF. PF throws back to either PG or Wing player. Random attempt at a pick, and then jump shot.

I am not sure it's the players. DC is lighting it up now. DC had 14 points and 13 assists tonight.

He's the point guard we always wanted. Why? Why is a guy we had who didn't do it for us, now everything we need?

Simply, our offense is not designed to use a point guard. It's a slow methodical offense that requires 1 on 1 players, which we don't have.

I do not believe I am overreacting. I believe Rick Carslie would have our offense humming with the same players.

I honestly believe that.

notque
11-05-2012, 11:54 PM
Wow. A lot of over-reactoin. We probably just played one of the best teams in the NBA, how know to lock down on defense, especially against a simple offense like ours, everyone should have seen this coming, especially with Granger out.

What about the terrible teams we played and could barely beat? This isn't about one bad game against the Spurs.

We haven't looked good at all yet. In 4 games you expect to look good a few times not withstanding West just 1 on 1 dominating.

Derek2k3
11-05-2012, 11:54 PM
You're rarely going to win when you get 2 points, 5 RB, 3 TO's from your $60M Center.

If there's a single positive to take from this game, I'd like to hear it. Awful offense, awful defense...bad bad bad.

EDIT: I don't care if it's only 4 games, at this point there is reason for real concern. Roy has been ineffective, either due to his own issues like tonight (Got bullied, turned the ball over) or due to poor gameplanning. The offense has been unbelievably dysfunctional when one player isn't exerting his will (David).

There are very few positives from what is one of the weakest schedules through 4 games. This team just isn't really doing anything well at this point, and they haven't shown much growth from game to game. Hell, they haven't shown much in-game improvement either.

The reason people will begin to get concerned is we've seen similar issues in all 4 games, and could easily be 0-4.

Really need to see a different effort Wednesday, that's for sure.

Eleazar
11-05-2012, 11:55 PM
I want to blame Vogel for the crappy offense but at the same time I think about the players we have and if Vogel decided to implement the San Antonio offense the turnovers would be even worse, to me the blame is on the front office, they didn't get a player that can create for himself and didn't get players that can pass the ball or at least make simple passes.

A big reason there are so many turnovers is because there is so little player and ball movement. Yeah sure at first there would be turnovers, but as they refine their movement, chemistry, and always passing the will improve.

notque
11-05-2012, 11:56 PM
You're rarely going to win when you get 2 points, 5 RB, 3 TO's from your $60M Center.

If there's a single positive to take from this game, I'd like to hear it. Awful offense, awful defense...bad bad bad.

The players didn't quit when they got down. That's the single positive.

3rdStrike
11-05-2012, 11:58 PM
Wow. A lot of over-reactoin. We probably just played one of the best teams in the NBA, how know to lock down on defense, especially against a simple offense like ours, everyone should have seen this coming, especially with Granger out.

This team has scored over 90 once, and that was in triple OT. The defensive powerhouses known to the NBA world as the Raptors, Bobcats and Kings are now joined by the Spurs as teams that made our offense look like garbage. Because clearly it's not this team, it's Charlotte/Toronto/Sacramento/San Antonio.

vnzla81, Darren Collison is all the proof I need that it's Vogel. No Dirk and he's looking like a borderline All Star.

Trader Joe
11-05-2012, 11:58 PM
Ok, here it is. If you are easily upset about people criticizing Roy, skip this, if you are in Area 55, absolutely skip this.


This has been brewing since second half Toronto. Everyone bails Roy out, and says why don't we get him the ball? When he plays poorly, Roy is just as culpable as this team when this happens. It's not just "he's not getting the ball" the fact is, since the first half of the Toronto game, Roy has not commanded the ball he has not called for it. He has absolutely refused to be aggressive. His defense was alright to very good in spurts against Sacramento, but there were also times where Cousins beat him like a red headed step child.

Here is my frustration with Roy, we see the gangnam style videos, we see the tweets about the hard workouts, we see all of this, but where is it on the court? I sit right behind the bench at home, and I see no fire from the guy, against Sacto Roy looked like he was going through the motions when he came to the bench and went back on the court. I NEED TO SEE SOME FIRE FROM MY HIGHEST PAID PLAYER.

Where is the guy who had his nose broken against Bynum and came back and played and help us win the game? That guy is long gone right now. The guy we have right now barely moved on defense tonight. He spent most of his time shuffling around. The guy has been anointed the face of the franchise, and to me this is not like when a young JO removed an older Reggie, Hibbert has displaced a guy that is still averaging 18-20 PPG is still our leading scorer until further notice (probably until he leaves the team to be honest looking at what we have seen from everyone else so far). Hibbert wants to be the face of the franchise he needs to start acting like it. And damn right he is getting this after only 4 games because he sold us on the guy he was before he got this big contract and frankly guys he has been a totally different player since Toronto half time. Yes, we know it's just not in his personality or whatever to show emotion, look the guy needs to at least stop looking like he is just out there to cash his damn check.

Now, for the piece of evidence against roy I'm not sure everyone has seen, but after I believe the Toronto game, Roy tweeted something about how the scorekeepers had incorrectly given George Hill one of his rebounds. Now here's what bothered me about this, I don't see too many of the stars ever tweeting about their stat line and I'm not sure many of them even care that much (Wade not withstanding because I've heard stories about how he always knows his stats, but I digress). Here's my point I don't want Roy thinking about one rebound he might have gotten or as he said to Hill "Big dawg needs his rebs."

I'm really frustrated with him right now, he is not earning his contract at the moment. I don't know if this is "just one of those classic Roy funks" or what, but I have seen enough. Al Horford is going to eat Roy's damn lunch in Atlanta if Roy does not sack up before that game. You want to be the guy giving the pre game speeches? You want to be the guy with your own personal fan section? You want to be THAT guy Roy? Start playing like it man. I think you have it in you, but damn if you aren't doing your best to hide it.

I am still firmly in the camp of, you had to pay Roy. We just didn't have a choice, he had become too integral to the advertising of the franchise. Well now I need to see some play from him.

Hopefully, truly, this can be like the Miami game early in the season last year where we went in after a decent start to the season and got our teeth kicked in. The team responded to do that. Hopefully this loss has the same effect, if it doesn't, well then we are in big trouble folks. Especially if Danny's not going to be back very soon.

graphic-er
11-05-2012, 11:59 PM
Roy Hibbert is 4 games into a new contract and it's clear it's the worst Indiana contract of all time. We're four games into the season and are only .500, we may as well not play the other 78 games. I mean, what's the point?

Sarcasm aside, Roy does not look like he improved much at all this offseason. He can't even seal his man in the post, Duncan poked a handful of post entry passes away from Hibbert.

Sollozzo
11-06-2012, 12:00 AM
SA wasn't letting Hibbert do anything. His production has been pretty mediocre so far this season, aside from that nice first half in Toronto. This was acceptable when he was on a rookie contract, but now he is judged by a completely different standard. Unacceptable play tonight.

Before the season, I said we would miss Collison and so far I'm right. Collison and Augistin might be similar talents, but Collisson played with our guys for two years and the team grew by leaps and bounds in those seasons. Collison is straight up balling in Dallas right now. He had 14 and 13 tonight and he's a major reason why Dallas is 3-1 without Dirk. He makes things happen on offense. So far, trading Collison has looked like a bad move. The guy had played just three seasons in the league and had shown enough where it was worth keeping him to see how he'd progress.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 12:00 AM
A big reason there are so many turnovers is because there is so little player and ball movement. Yeah sure at first there would be turnovers, but as they refine their movement, chemistry, and always passing the will improve.

Yeah but my point is that to implement a well oiled offensive machine like San Antonio you need above average passers, the Pacers best passer and above average passer is Paul George with Lance second and Roy third, but after that everybody else pretty much sucks at passing the ball.

You implement a pass friendly offense and the players we have wouldn't know what to do.

Eleazar
11-06-2012, 12:02 AM
Sarcasm aside, Roy does not look like he improved much at all this offseason. He can't even seal his man in the post, Duncan poked a handful of post entry passes away from Hibbert.

Roy certainly isn't good at this, but at the same time the passes I remember were placed poorly making it easy for Duncan to poke them away.

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 12:02 AM
SA wasn't letting Hibbert do anything. His production has been pretty mediocre so far this season, aside from that nice first half in Toronto. This was acceptable when he was on a rookie contract, but now he is judged by a completely different standard. Unacceptable play tonight.

Before the season, I said we would miss Collison and so far I'm right. Collison and Augistin might be similar talents, but Collisson played with our guys for two years and the team grew by leaps and bounds in those seasons. Collison is straight up balling in Dallas right now. He had 14 and 13 tonight and he's a major reason why Dallas is 3-1 without Dirk. He makes things happen on offense. So far, trading Collison has looked like a bad move. The guy had played just three seasons in the league and had shown enough where it was worth keeping him to see how he'd progress.

The issue I'm having with DJ is that he can't get around anyone on defense. I can accept his poor defense, but when Gary freaking Neal is able to keep you from getting into the paint, we have a problem.

LG33
11-06-2012, 12:02 AM
The 90-second celebration rule has really put a damper on this team's ability to get up for games.

notque
11-06-2012, 12:02 AM
Ok, here it is. If you are easily upset about people criticizing Roy, skip this, if you are in Area 55, absolutely skip this.

I flatly disagree with you, but respect the passion and where you're coming from.

This isn't about a lack of passion from Roy. This is about him being a middling center. The same center as last year who many games a year doesn't show up because he can't keep the ball in the post long enough to do a post move that he's effective at.

He doesn't have a feel for a double team. He doesn't have a lot.

What we'd do if we were smart is have him pass more like JO used to from the post to open up him as an option. Instead we run the screen past Roy isolating him, and hope for the best.

He's not going to beat Tim Duncan. He's not good enough.

Sollozzo
11-06-2012, 12:02 AM
Wow. A lot of over-reactoin. We probably just played one of the best teams in the NBA, how know to lock down on defense, especially against a simple offense like ours, everyone should have seen this coming, especially with Granger out.

We're 2-2. We struggled against the three bad teams we played and got obliterated by the one good one. Four games out of 82 is a small number, but it's all we have to go on right now and so far this team doesn't look that hot. But the Granger absence is definitely a big reason.

notque
11-06-2012, 12:03 AM
Roy certainly isn't good at this, but at the same time the passes I remember were placed poorly making it easy for Duncan to poke them away.

No way, they were good passes. He got beat by a better post defender simply.

The passes in last playoffs? Terrible. The passes this year? Just fine.

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 12:04 AM
I flatly disagree with you, but respect the passion and where you're coming from.

This isn't about a lack of passion from Roy. This is about him being a middling center. The same center as last year who many games a year doesn't show up because he can't keep the ball in the post long enough to do a post move that he's effective at.

He doesn't have a feel for a double team. He doesn't have a lot.

What we'd do if we were smart is have him pass more like JO used to from the post to open up him as an option. Instead we run the screen past Roy isolating him, and hope for the best.

He's not going to beat Tim Duncan. He's not good enough.

He's played pretty damn well against him in the past. Tonight was the anomaly.

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 12:05 AM
No way, they were good passes. He got beat by a better post defender simply.

The passes in last playoffs? Terrible. The passes this year? Just fine.

Duncan, Diaw, and at times Blair all took Roy's lunch today.

notque
11-06-2012, 12:06 AM
He's played pretty damn well against him in the past. Tonight was the anomaly.

Then tonight we were the Indiana Anomalies cause no one played well.

Eleazar
11-06-2012, 12:06 AM
No way, they were good passes. He got beat by a better post defender simply.

The passes in last playoffs? Terrible. The passes this year? Just fine.

Well they certainly aren't placed where I would want them as a post player.

3rdStrike
11-06-2012, 12:10 AM
the Pacers best passer and above average passer is Paul George with Lance second and Roy third, but after that everybody else pretty much sucks at passing the ball.

This is just wrong. Augustin-Stephenson-Hill-George is the order. And George is last among them by a mile.



notque gets it. The effort of our center is not the biggest issue. Hibbert is simply not that good. He's the guy who got embarassed by Glen Davis for an entire series. At the end of the year he'll have his 12 and 8 averages, but is that good enough? Will that ever be good enough to justify that albatross of a contract?

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 12:11 AM
Then tonight we were the Indiana Anomalies cause no one played well.

Last year: 15 and 7 on 60% shooting.
Year before: 28 and 9 on 59% shooting, then 10 and 14 on 30% shooting
2 Years before: 20 and 7 on 60% shooting, then 14 and 7 on 46% shooting.


Basically, he's played pretty acceptably versus Duncan in the past. Tonight was an absolute disaster for him, no excuse.

Heisenberg
11-06-2012, 12:13 AM
hear Kroger's selling these as part of their sponsorship agreement

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2313/hibbertmilkcarton.jpg

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 12:14 AM
This is just wrong. Augustin-Stephenson-Hill-George is the order. And George is last among them by a mile.



notque gets it. The effort of our center is not the biggest issue. Hibbert is simply not that good. He's the guy who got embarassed by Glen Davis for an entire series. At the end of the year he'll have his 12 and 8 averages, but is that good enough? Will that ever be good enough to justify that albatross of a contract?

I don't think Hill is an above average passer he is not that good at it, Hibbert is a good passer for a big guy and regarding his contract there is nothing the Pacers can do about it.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 12:15 AM
hear Kroger's selling these as part of their sponsorship agreement

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2313/hibbertmilkcarton.jpg

:lol:

Trader Joe
11-06-2012, 12:19 AM
I flatly disagree with you, but respect the passion and where you're coming from.

This isn't about a lack of passion from Roy. This is about him being a middling center. The same center as last year who many games a year doesn't show up because he can't keep the ball in the post long enough to do a post move that he's effective at.

He doesn't have a feel for a double team. He doesn't have a lot.

What we'd do if we were smart is have him pass more like JO used to from the post to open up him as an option. Instead we run the screen past Roy isolating him, and hope for the best.

He's not going to beat Tim Duncan. He's not good enough.

Offensively his decision making is horrible, him calling himself the best passer int he NBA has always sort of rubbed me the wrong way too. Even if he is not good enough to score consistently against Timmy, he could grab more than 5 rebounds.

Sollozzo
11-06-2012, 12:21 AM
Duncan made Roy look like a rookie.

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 12:22 AM
He had 4 boards in the first 9 minutes, 1 in the next 18.

The guy was wasting space for 2/3 of the time he was out there.

And I'm a big Roy fan. Just know an absolute travesty of a performance when I see one.

Trader Joe
11-06-2012, 12:22 AM
Duncan made Roy look like a rookie.

Duncan made Roy look like a guy who didn't belong in the NBA.

Eleazar
11-06-2012, 12:23 AM
Roy may have had a poor offensive day, but he got that contract because of his defense which has continued to be stellar this season.

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 12:24 AM
Roy may have had a poor offensive day, but he got that contract because of his defense which has continued to be stellar this season.

Speaking of defense, Paul sure had some incredible moments of 1 on 1 defense. Defending without fouling...impressive.

boombaby1987
11-06-2012, 12:25 AM
It's frustrating that Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli combined for 9 points and we lost by 22.

PR07
11-06-2012, 12:28 AM
I glanced at Roy's line, and immediately thought he got in foul trouble from Duncan...then I looked and saw he wasn't. He was just a ghost on the court.

Sollozzo
11-06-2012, 12:29 AM
Roy may have had a poor offensive day, but he got that contract because of his defense which has continued to be stellar this season.

There's no question his defense is important. It's a major reason why we were such a good team last year. But an 8.75 PPG start to the season is just unacceptable. When we gave Roy that contract, we were expecting him to improve his offense from year to year. It hasn't happened so far this season, and that has especially hurt us because of the Granger absence.

Eleazar
11-06-2012, 12:35 AM
A big reason for that is teams are focusing on making sure Roy doesn't beat them, and with the way this team is constructed Vogel makes the decision to go to West instead. This was the first game that Roy really struggled, otherwise Roy has been good on offense, just Vogel has decided to make the offense revolve around West and Hill instead of Hibbert and George.

Hicks
11-06-2012, 12:50 AM
Part of his struggles are he's getting attacked by the defense; they focus on shutting him out and we don't have anyone else to easily keep them honest because the next best guy is also trying to stay within 15 or so feet of the basket (West). Danny's absence is hurting him. Hell, Charlotte was triple-teaming him at one point. He/they just need to prepare to burn teams for being so aggressive on him. It has to be leaving something open/available. If he's still averaging 9 ppg in January, then I'll turn on him. It's been four freakin' games.

Trader Joe
11-06-2012, 12:52 AM
Part of his struggles are he's getting attacked by the defense; they focus on shutting him out and we don't have anyone else to easily keep them honest because the next best guy is also trying to stay within 15 or so feet of the basket (West). Danny's absence is hurting him. Hell, Charlotte was triple-teaming him at one point. He/they just need to prepare to burn teams for being so aggressive on him. It has to be leaving something open/available. If he's still averaging 9 ppg in January, then I'll turn on him. It's been four freakin' games.

I'm not trying to turn on him, just trying to expect something more from him.

Sookie
11-06-2012, 12:54 AM
Part of his struggles are he's getting attacked by the defense; they focus on shutting him out and we don't have anyone else to easily keep them honest because the next best guy is also trying to stay within 15 or so feet of the basket (West). Danny's absence is hurting him. Hell, Charlotte was triple-teaming him at one point. He/they just need to prepare to burn teams for being so aggressive on him. It has to be leaving something open/available. If he's still averaging 9 ppg in January, then I'll turn on him. It's been four freakin' games.

It is leaving something open. Jump shots. Pacers missed a ton of jump shots.

Eleazar
11-06-2012, 12:55 AM
I'm not trying to turn on him, just trying to expect something more from him.

Your expectations are not taking into consideration why he got the contract he got, how this team is constructed and ran, and how teams are playing him. You are only looking at his stats to $$ ratio which is a very poor measure.

Trader Joe
11-06-2012, 12:56 AM
Your expectations are not taking into consideration why he got the contract he got, how this team is constructed and ran, and how teams are playing him. You are only looking at his stats to $$ ratio which is a very poor measure.

Huh? I'm not even that concerned with stats. I'm more concerned with effort and body language. I know why Roy got the contract he got. A big part of it was his D and his strong effort, haven't really seen that so far. Roy got paid a lot of money he should be expected to be judged like a bball player who is making $14 million roughly regardless of why he got it.

imawhat
11-06-2012, 01:04 AM
Your expectations are not taking into consideration why he got the contract he got, how this team is constructed and ran, and how teams are playing him. You are only looking at his stats to $$ ratio which is a very poor measure.

None of the excuses above justify 2pts/5rbs/3to. There were no intangibles that were missed from tonight's. Let's call a spade a spade.

Eleazar
11-06-2012, 01:08 AM
None of the excuses above justify 2pts/5rbs/3to. There were no intangibles that were missed from tonight's. Let's call a spade a spade.

Yeah he played like **** on offense tonight, that is obvious, but it is just one bad game. Not a season of bad games.

notque
11-06-2012, 01:09 AM
DC had more assists tonight than our entire team did.

Trader Joe
11-06-2012, 01:14 AM
Roy's multiple tweets last year about being "the best passing big man in the NBA" are really gnawing at me right now.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 01:24 AM
SAN ANTONIO – There’s a lot “D” going around these days. And I’m not talking about defense, either.

There’s a lot of denial coming from fans about the Pacers.

–“Lakers have worse record yet no one concerned! Why should we be, gotta have chemistry by next week”

Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Paul Gasol, let alone Danny Granger is not walking through the door anytime soon for the blue and gold.

–“4 starters and a revamped bench all figuring out each other. Not too worried. Getting the consistent rotation will help.”

The first four games have proven the Pacers have a LONG way to go before they figure things out

–“what do you think are the concerns? Is Danny that valuable? New guys overrated? Guys not progressing?”

Danny’s that valuable. Their current lineup doesn’t strike fear in opponents. Granger’s closest thing to that. They’re an easy team to defend.

Reality is, this will be long, challenging process for the Pacers to get it together until Granger returns. The Pacers should have an update on Granger any day now. And even when he does return, there will be a transition period for him.

The Pacers have a chance, albeit I’m not sure how big of one, to hover around .500 for the next couple of weeks with games against Washington, Toronto and Milwaukee coming up over the next or so. But don’t expect to them to take off on any long winning streaks unless they suddenly stop and look at themselves individually, as David West mentioned after the game.

Their inability to take care of the ball has become comical now.

Here’s the tweet of the night on the turnovers:

–“ Boy these Indiana Turnovers are Delicious. Apple or Peach?” – The Pacers had 19 turnovers and only 11 assists



http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2012/11/06/pacers-the-wrong-kind-of-d-is-being-talked-about/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

imawhat
11-06-2012, 01:31 AM
Getting Granger back would help, but it won't solve 90% of our offensive problems. We're taking way too long to get into our sets and players aren't moving.

How many times has our offense stalled because the ball stays on one side of the floor? 1,000? It's amazing that it happens so often but we can't fix it during the game.

Trader Joe
11-06-2012, 01:32 AM
It's not gonna matter if we get Danny back if we can't take care of the ball. Paul George is turning the ball over in a way that is "It's 4am and I've had one too many at the bars and I'm playing 2k13 right now"-esque.
"

Trader Joe
11-06-2012, 01:35 AM
We've taken 20+ 3s in each of the past 3 games. JOB would be proud.

imawhat
11-06-2012, 01:53 AM
It's not gonna matter if we get Danny back if we can't take care of the ball. Paul George is turning the ball over in a way that is "It's 4am and I've had one too many at the bars and I'm playing 2k13 right now"-esque.
"

Half are from lazy passes and the other half are from his dribble. I see no improvement at all with his dribble. I wonder how many hours he actually put in on dribbling and what specifically he was working on. There are so many things wrong with his dribble; it would be nice to see him improve at least one of those things.

diamonddave00
11-06-2012, 02:20 AM
On bright side Gerald Green had 9 points 8 boards and 0 turnovers in 25 minutes tonight. Our #1 pick scored his 1st 2 points , had 2 rebounds and a block in his 1st game action Miles actually scored as many points as Roy tonight.

TheDon
11-06-2012, 02:21 AM
Has anyone thought maybe one of the reasons Roy was so terrible tonight was because him and Duncan train together and work on things all offseason long and it was possible that they just had Roy scouted out by a mile? I'm not saying it's the only reason he put up a stinker like he did, obviously some of the effort seems to be lacking on his part as well as that mental toughness that seems to come and go for whatever reason.

rexnom
11-06-2012, 02:25 AM
Mike Dunleavy scored 29 on Saturday! Why did we let him go?! - Nobody

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 02:25 AM
Yes Hibbert sucked but he was not the only one that sucked so I would like for people to stop acting like today's blowout was Roy's fault.

rexnom
11-06-2012, 02:28 AM
What I don't get is this furor over his contract. What's the alternative? Let him go and sign Kaman? That would have been better? What would we say after his third straight 15-10-3 game next to Aldridge?

Heisenberg
11-06-2012, 02:35 AM
On bright side Gerald Green had 9 points 8 boards and 0 turnovers in 25 minutes tonight. Our #1 pick scored his 1st 2 points , had 2 rebounds and a block in his 1st game action Miles actually scored as many points as Roy tonight.
They were more than meaningless minutes but Plumlee looked decent. Decent enough that I'd be cool with him replacing Mahinmi in a rotation shift and seeing what happens.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 03:18 AM
They were more than meaningless minutes but Plumlee looked decent. Decent enough that I'd be cool with him replacing Mahinmi in a rotation shift and seeing what happens.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, Ian has looked like garbage so far.

Brinocerous
11-06-2012, 03:20 AM
What I don't get is this furor over his contract. What's the alternative? Let him go and sign Kaman? That would have been better? What would we say after his third straight 15-10-3 game next to Aldridge?

Freakin this! What was the realistic alternative at the time? Oh that's right....there was none. Lose Roy this summer and there's no 30% increase in ticket sales. All the goodwill built over the playoffs is dead before the season starts. It simply was not an option.

Granted, Hib's effort sucked tonight. No doubt. It sucked enough that it makes me wonder if something else isn't up with him. DG all gimpy helps nothing. Our offense is a mystery to everyone. And as shooters, we can't hit the water falling out of a boat. This is nothing new at the start of the season. Teams throughout the league and throughout history have had the same problems and have frequently overcome those problems. But to jump on the freakout button like some on this board 4 games in is just silly. You'd think Jason Archuleta didn't win American Idol again or something.

rexnom
11-06-2012, 03:23 AM
I think what hurts us the most is that last year we had six starter-quality players at any given time (except when Hill was injured). This year we've had four, with Hill hobbled.

xtacy
11-06-2012, 03:29 AM
that score didn't surprise me a bit. i was asking after 3 games what would a really good team do to us? there's your answer.

this team is plain awful. who tought/thinks otherwise is just blind or dreaming. but when i pointed that out i was overreacting.

now come and tell me not to overreact please. and please add your excuse to your post, blind or dreaming. go on.

btw i feel like a total idiot getting hibbert to my fantasy team.

D-BONE
11-06-2012, 07:30 AM
Wow, having that whole preseason for Vogel to install and fine tune the offense has really worked wonders.

Johanvil
11-06-2012, 07:57 AM
I know it may not be an important thing and i'm sorry but right now everything annoys me with the Pacers,every detail,even the smallest one.How many times have we seen this:
*Roy posts up,gets the ball and George starts cutting to the basket behind him.Roy fakes the pass to George and goes for the basket.*No result whatsoever.Repeat.

mrknowname
11-06-2012, 08:12 AM
didn't look they had their legs under them. double overtime on saturday might have had something to do with that.

still lack a ballhandling/playmaking wing player though. a lights out 3 point shooter would be nice as well

CJ Jones
11-06-2012, 09:01 AM
That was about the most selfish game of basketball I can remember. If I was Frank I'd have the guys running suicides this morning. Heck, I'd run with them.

BlueNGold
11-06-2012, 09:07 AM
Wow, having that whole preseason for Vogel to install and fine tune the offense has really worked wonders.

I have to admit it does not look good. My biggest concern is not the Spurs but losing to the Bobcats and struggling to beat other teams.

Heisenberg
11-06-2012, 09:22 AM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing, Ian has looked like garbage so far.
To be clear, I'm not saying I want Plumlee to replace Mahinmi in the rotation altogether. I think Mahinmi's been adequate enough. But give him one of Plumlee's 4 minute shifts in the first half behind Roy and see how he does. He looks like *** fine, back to Ian, he doesn't, then well, he doesn't.

3rdStrike
11-06-2012, 09:32 AM
What I don't get is this furor over his contract. What's the alternative? Let him go and sign Kaman? That would have been better? What would we say after his third straight 15-10-3 game next to Aldridge?

It was still a huge risk, predicated on the thought that Roy would improve as a center, enough to become one of the best in the NBA and deserving of the contract. There was furor over his contract the entire offseason, so I'm not sure why you'd think that would go away. It wasn't as if 100% (or anywhere near it) of the board was in favor of giving him the max just because we didn't have an on-roster replacement at the time. Bottom line is as long as he continues to play like $3m/yr Hibbert (or worse, as the early trend has been), those who were not in favor of risking the franchise's financial flexibility for him will be upset, and a few who wanted to shell out big bucks for him will join in. With big money comes big expectations.

I've said it before, I like Hibbert. He's a solid player who is just way overpaid for being so flawed (one move on offense, easily overpowered in the paint, extreme liability guarding the PnR). But he's not only stinking it up on the court so far, his demeanor isn't helping things and the whole flirting w/ Portland, max money or I walk thing wasn't too appealing either.

repole
11-06-2012, 10:02 AM
Half are from lazy passes and the other half are from his dribble. I see no improvement at all with his dribble. I wonder how many hours he actually put in on dribbling and what specifically he was working on. There are so many things wrong with his dribble; it would be nice to see him improve at least one of those things.

Handling is one of the hardest things a player can try to improve, it takes a tremendous amount of time. Very few players manage to improve their handles after coming into the NBA. It's something you spend over a decade developing during your formative years as a basketball player.

Ace E.Anderson
11-06-2012, 10:05 AM
We've taken 20+ 3s in each of the past 3 games. JOB would be proud.

Teams are packing in the paint. Unless we want to go in and take a charge, we have to start knocking down these 3's. Otherwise, teams will just leave us out there to shoot.

I agree, 20 is too much for a mediocre 3pt shooting team, but the ONLY way to open up the lane is to shoot and make outside shots.

Coopdog23
11-06-2012, 10:11 AM
They just looked awful. Spurs are probably the best team in the league though

Since86
11-06-2012, 11:45 AM
Why in the world wouldn't you just pound the ball into West last night and make Diaw play defense? Frank's play calling is frustrating. I normally wouldn't put much blame on him, when players break the play and jack up an undesigned 3 which it seems like they do frequently, but when it happens Frank doesn't do anything about it. That's the maddening part.

Someone needs to take control. A coach. A player. Doesn't matter, just someone.

Justin Tyme
11-06-2012, 11:46 AM
This team just isn't really doing anything well at this point,


Hm, they have out reb'd every team each game. I'd say that's doing something. They are averaging 53 rebs per game. Granted the OT game helped inflate the average, but in the other 3 games they are 46, 52, and 48 =48 rebs.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 11:51 AM
Why in the world wouldn't you just pound the ball into West last night and make Diaw play defense? Frank's play calling is frustrating. I normally wouldn't put much blame on him, when players break the play and jack up an undesigned 3 which it seems like they do frequently, but when it happens Frank doesn't do anything about it. That's the maddening part.

Someone needs to take control. A coach. A player. Doesn't matter, just someone.

They tried few times and Diaw did a pretty good job on him, Diaw is a pretty good defender, I know many of you don't believe that specially Peck.

Since86
11-06-2012, 11:52 AM
They tried few times and Diaw did a pretty good job on him, Diaw is a pretty good defender, I know many of you don't believe that specially Peck.


A few times? Oh well, then I stand corrected....

It's pretty clear that the Pacers don't have the fire power to try and share the ball equally to get points. When you're struggling offensively, you go to your best matchup, and that was West against Diaw, and it wasn't even close.

Ace E.Anderson
11-06-2012, 11:56 AM
Why in the world wouldn't you just pound the ball into West last night and make Diaw play defense? Frank's play calling is frustrating. I normally wouldn't put much blame on him, when players break the play and jack up an undesigned 3 which it seems like they do frequently, but when it happens Frank doesn't do anything about it. That's the maddening part.

Someone needs to take control. A coach. A player. Doesn't matter, just someone.

Instead of trying to have West go in the post, where Diaw's "size" helps his defense, we should have had D.West go to work off the elbow area ala his barrage against Bargniani in Toronto.

I actually thought that Hill's matchup against Parker was our most favorable offensive matchup. The only thing is our spacing is so bad, that once Hill (or any player for that matter) drives the lane, they don't have anyone under the basket to kick it out to, they have to kick it out to the 3pt line.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 12:04 PM
A few times? Oh well, then I stand corrected....

It's pretty clear that the Pacers don't have the fire power to try and share the ball equally to get points. When you're struggling offensively, you go to your best matchup, and that was West against Diaw, and it wasn't even close.

It's closer than you think, Diaw is a big as West, West struggled to move him and was not able to score on him, Diaw is a good defender it would have been stupid to go at him every time down the court.

Since86
11-06-2012, 12:07 PM
I didn't necessarly mean straight post ups. Frank has good designs to PnR with West out in the flat on the right side of the basket. They did run those against Toronto.

But last night's shot selection was just **** poor. Hill throwing up 3s off of zero passes and one pick made me want to vomit. Vnlza ranting again about "smashmouth" basketball, and how horrible it is, is funny considering that it wasn't anywhere near smashmouth. They resorted to JOB-ball, because it's the security blanket. It's easy to throw up jumpshots. The hard part about basketball is being focused and getting the shots you want to get, rather than getting the shots the defense wants you to get. The Pacers played Spurs style basketball, and we saw the results.

West not only needs to be the emtional leader, he needs to be the guy that everyone looks to when the going gets tough. He's the only one with the mental capacity to handle that level of pressure.

Ace E.Anderson
11-06-2012, 12:20 PM
I agree that some of those shots Hill took were bad shots, but he was also the ONLY one looking to do anything with the ball aside from hold it and wait until our post players got into position. He, along with West, were the ONLY ones being the aggressor's on offense. I'll take Hill trying to be aggressive and look to score, over Paul holding the ball and looking indecisive every time. At this point if Paul isn't going to be an aggressor, then SOMEBODY needs to say F-it (like Danny does a lot of the time) and try to get themselves going.

And again, when a team is packing the paint, it's almost foolish to simply drive and and try to draw a foul. The first week of the season has shown that the refs are NOT calling a lot of physical things at the rim, so teams that can make the outside J are going to be in a lot better shape offensively.

I agree, we don't need a ton of 3's or outside J's, but at the same time the only way to make teams open up the inside is to at least make a few from the outside.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 12:28 PM
I didn't necessarly mean straight post ups. Frank has good designs to PnR with West out in the flat on the right side of the basket. They did run those against Toronto.

But last night's shot selection was just **** poor. Hill throwing up 3s off of zero passes and one pick made me want to vomit. Vnlza ranting again about "smashmouth" basketball, and how horrible it is, is funny considering that it wasn't anywhere near smashmouth. They resorted to JOB-ball, because it's the security blanket. It's easy to throw up jumpshots. The hard part about basketball is being focused and getting the shots you want to get, rather than getting the shots the defense wants you to get. The Pacers played Spurs style basketball, and we saw the results.

West not only needs to be the emtional leader, he needs to be the guy that everyone looks to when the going gets tough. He's the only one with the mental capacity to handle that level of pressure.

Yes they tried "smashmouth" and because they were not able to take it to Duncan and Diaw their whole plan went to the toilet, Pop knows this, take their "smashmouth" crap away and you win the game.

So I guess we kind of agree, they tried "smashmouth", failed and decided to go back to JOB basketball, my complain is that I believe that this happens when you focus so much in the crap "smashmouth" is.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 12:59 PM
@mikepersinger: Bobcats announce Gerald Henderson could miss 2-4 weeks with a mid-foot sprain.


I guess they have a chance next time they play the Bobcats.

pacergod2
11-06-2012, 01:11 PM
We were outclassed in every facet of the game. There is no denying that.

The problems we are still having is getting the ball to Hibbert, who needs to initiate ball movement. He is getting so much weakside attention, and we refuse to pass behind the pressure. The Spurs did this all night long. They are the best in the game at it. They make you pay for defensive movement. We aren't capable of it. The ball is stopping on offense way too much. There is way too much individual basketball going on. We are actually passing the ball a lot, but the passing is just not effective, because it is more of "hand-off and spread" type of passing. I feel like we are doing a lot of things appropriately, our guys just aren't doing them effectively. Like our wings have been moving pretty well without the ball and spreading the floor, but they are making bad decisions once they get open. We are turning the ball over at such an amazing clip for an NBA team. This is just **** poor decision making at every single spot on the floor. Hibbert is forcing things when he gets the ball. He's not passing out effectively. West has been good because he has been looking to score and that is what he thrives at, especially with Hibbert eating up their biggest body. George is just playing confused. Same with Green. They are just holding the ball too damn long to make their decisions. When they try to speed up what they are doing, it is a turnover. Hill is not playing bad, IMO. He just can't be our second best scorer. That is not what will make us a good team. He should be our fourth option, even with Danny out. Our spot up shooting has been brutal. That has allowed teams to ollapse harder on Roy and it just makes our team completely ineffective. We need to go to Roy, but there needs to be weakside passing. These short passes don't give us a chance to stop the wekside help. They are really good for helping us get into a set, but by the time the ball movement starts the shot clock is winding down. We continue to help the defense by not putting pressure on them with ball movement. It is the speed at which our offense needs to operate at that we aren't able to attain, IMO. You look at the Spurs and how quick their passing is. The ball is gone long before a double gets there. The ball is reversed quickly to guys who are open because their men are recovering. We wait for the defense to get to us and then make short passes instead of quick passses and it will never get you around a defense.

PS - Start Lance at the two please.

Hicks
11-06-2012, 01:13 PM
It is leaving something open. Jump shots. Pacers missed a ton of jump shots.

So then do we assume we're just in a slump and eventually leaving our guys open like that will punish teams, or are we to assume we don't have good enough shooters?

Hicks
11-06-2012, 01:15 PM
Huh? I'm not even that concerned with stats. I'm more concerned with effort and body language. I know why Roy got the contract he got. A big part of it was his D and his strong effort, haven't really seen that so far. Roy got paid a lot of money he should be expected to be judged like a bball player who is making $14 million roughly regardless of why he got it.

I guess I'm oblivious to his body language, then, because he looks the same to me. I think his defense has also been there and been very good. He's just not done much offensively, and I think that amounts to the usual up and down of missing shots and then factoring in that defenses are focusing in on him more than ever.

Which brings me back to wait and see mode. He could adjust, the team could adjust, shots could start falling to open it up and punish teams. Just have to see.

Hicks
11-06-2012, 01:16 PM
Roy's multiple tweets last year about being "the best passing big man in the NBA" are really gnawing at me right now.

The guy crowed. Personally, I don't care that he did. Far, far worse things he could have been saying/doing than that.

Hicks
11-06-2012, 01:17 PM
Getting Granger back would help, but it won't solve 90% of our offensive problems. We're taking way too long to get into our sets and players aren't moving.

How many times has our offense stalled because the ball stays on one side of the floor? 1,000? It's amazing that it happens so often but we can't fix it during the game.

Do you think it's supposed to involve more movement, or do you think it's just meant to be a blunt, inside-out, 'pick your poison' (in theory) kind of offense based primarily on spacing and being ready to catch and shoot?

Hicks
11-06-2012, 01:23 PM
What I don't get is this furor over his contract. What's the alternative? Let him go and sign Kaman? That would have been better? What would we say after his third straight 15-10-3 game next to Aldridge?

Rule #1: There's Always Something Wrong

CJ Jones
11-06-2012, 01:28 PM
I don't think just knocking down some 3's is going to solve our problems. We're not getting in rhythm jumpers from our offense, they're all off the dribble which makes a low percentage shot even lower. Until we figure out how to get a good shot we're gonna keep missing. It's as simple as that.

I agree with Pacergod... start Lance. We need some creativity on the court because right now the offense is too predictable.

Since86
11-06-2012, 01:33 PM
Yes they tried "smashmouth" and because they were not able to take it to Duncan and Diaw their whole plan went to the toilet, Pop knows this, take their "smashmouth" crap away and you win the game.


It was pointed out to you in the other thread, that the Pacers were 10th in efficiency last year. So they established that their offensive identity, does in fact work.




So I guess we kind of agree, they tried "smashmouth", failed and decided to go back to JOB basketball, my complain is that I believe that this happens when you focus so much in the crap "smashmouth" is.

Which is why it's silly to use this game as a critque of "smashmouth." Had they continued to use it, instead of giving up on it at the first opportunity, then you would have a point. But all I saw last night was confirmation that relying on jumpshots is a bad idea.

Justin Tyme
11-06-2012, 01:34 PM
We've taken 20+ 3s in each of the past 3 games. JOB would be proud.



AND it won't get any better when Granger returns!

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 01:42 PM
It was pointed out to you in the other thread, that the Pacers were 10th in efficiency last year. So they established that their offensive identity, does in fact work.





Which is why it's silly to use this game as a critque of "smashmouth." Had they continued to use it, instead of giving up on it at the first opportunity, then you would have a point. But all I saw last night was confirmation that relying on jumpshots is a bad idea.

I'm critizing "smashmouth" because it looks like that is the only thing the Pacers have, you play against a good coach that knows how to stop it and you are pretty much screwed.

There should be more offensive plays, more screens, more movement no just this "smashmouth" gimmick.

Justin Tyme
11-06-2012, 01:47 PM
On bright side Gerald Green had 9 points 8 boards and 0 turnovers in 25 minutes tonight.

Our #1 pick scored his 1st 2 points , had 2 rebounds and a block in his 1st game action Miles actually scored as many points as Roy tonight.


Quick someone do a per 36 on Plumlee.

If Hibbert isn't embarrassed by his game or lack of one, then he was the wrong player to get the contract Walsh deemed he was worthy of.

notque
11-06-2012, 02:23 PM
While watching the game Tyler was my favorite player. Why?

Because he looked to attack every time. Everyone else looked tentative. At least when Tyler gets the ball, you know he's going to go after it.

Eleazar
11-06-2012, 02:39 PM
Quick someone do a per 36 on Plumlee.

If Hibbert isn't embarrassed by his game or lack of one, then he was the wrong player to get the contract Walsh deemed he was worthy of.

Per 48: 12 rebounds, 12 blocks, 24 points

Didn't want to do the math for per 36 and ESPN already has a per 48 done.

Trader Joe
11-06-2012, 02:46 PM
The guy crowed. Personally, I don't care that he did. Far, far worse things he could have been saying/doing than that.

I know I shouldn't punish him for them, logically, but definitely sticking in my craw right now. Hopefully this is like the Heat game from early last year where we got our butts handed to us and came out much better afterward.

Justin Tyme
11-06-2012, 03:21 PM
still lack a ballhandling/playmaking wing player though. a lights out 3 point shooter would be nice as well


What the Pacers need is a true PG. One that gets his team mates involved in the game and makes them better players. The latter part of last season I pointed out how Goran Dragic was playing when he took over for an injured Lowry. I campaigned during the off season for him. Houston let him go to the Suns, and in 4 games, the same Hill has started as the Pacers PG, Goran is averaging 14 pts, 8.8 asts, and 3.5 rebs.

It's been yeaaaars since the Pacers had a true PG. I'm not sure TPTB even knows what a true PG is. It's obviously not a converted combo guard named Geo Hill. I said when Bird was so set on having Hill it was a mistake. Walsh compounded that mistake by overpaying to keep Hill. Dragic is a far better PG than Hill at a little less than what Hill is being paid.

Posters have mentioned Hill's game last night, but not one pointed out Hill's game was playing against his old team. Hill had a reason to play better last night. The bottom line is Hill isn't the PG of the future for the Pacers, and never will be. In order for the Pacers to ever challenge for a championship, they have to upgrade their PG position. The motor drives the engine, and Hill isn't the motor.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 03:24 PM
What the Pacers need is a true PG. One that gets his team mates involved in the game and makes them better players. The latter part of last season I pointed out how Goran Dragic was playing when he took over for an injured Lowry. I campaigned during the off season for him. Houston let him go to the Suns, and in 4 games, the same Hill has started as the Pacers PG, Goran is averaging 14 pts, 8.8 asts, and 3.5 rebs.

It's been yeaaaars since the Pacers had a true PG. I'm not sure TPTB even knows what a true PG is. It's obviously not a converted combo guard named Geo Hill. I said when Bird was so set on having Hill it was a mistake. Walsh compounded that mistake by overpaying to keep Hill. Dragic is a far better PG than Hill at a little less than what Hill is being paid.

Posters have mentioned Hill's game last night, but not one pointed out Hill's game was playing against his old team. Hill had a reason to play better last night. The bottom line is Hill isn't the PG of the future for the Pacers, and never will be. In order for the Pacers to ever challenge for a championship, they have to upgrade their PG position. The motor drives the engine, and Hill isn't the motor.


How about Felton? Felton is looking great, passing the ball and getting everybody involved, not only that but he doesn't make much.

notque
11-06-2012, 03:24 PM
What the Pacers need is a true PG. One that gets his team mates involved in the game and makes them better players. The latter part of last season I pointed out how Goran Dragic was playing when he took over for an injured Lowry. I campaigned during the off season for him. Houston let him go to the Suns, and in 4 games, the same Hill has started as the Pacers PG, Goran is averaging 14 pts, 8.8 asts, and 3.5 rebs.

It's been yeaaaars since the Pacers had a true PG. I'm not sure TPTB even knows what a true PG is. It's obviously not a converted combo guard named Geo Hill. I said when Bird was so set on having Hill it was a mistake. Walsh compounded that mistake by overpaying to keep Hill. Dragic is a far better PG than Hill at a little less than what Hill is being paid.

Posters have mentioned Hill's game last night, but not one pointed out Hill's game was playing against his old team. Hill had a reason to play better last night. The bottom line is Hill isn't the PG of the future for the Pacers, and never will be. In order for the Pacers to ever challenge for a championship, they have to upgrade their PG position. The motor drives the engine, and Hill isn't the motor.

We obviously had a true PG in DC and didn't realize it because our offense doesn't use a PG.

Ace E.Anderson
11-06-2012, 03:32 PM
What the Pacers need is a true PG. One that gets his team mates involved in the game and makes them better players. The latter part of last season I pointed out how Goran Dragic was playing when he took over for an injured Lowry. I campaigned during the off season for him. Houston let him go to the Suns, and in 4 games, the same Hill has started as the Pacers PG, Goran is averaging 14 pts, 8.8 asts, and 3.5 rebs.

It's been yeaaaars since the Pacers had a true PG. I'm not sure TPTB even knows what a true PG is. It's obviously not a converted combo guard named Geo Hill. I said when Bird was so set on having Hill it was a mistake. Walsh compounded that mistake by overpaying to keep Hill. Dragic is a far better PG than Hill at a little less than what Hill is being paid.

Posters have mentioned Hill's game last night, but not one pointed out Hill's game was playing against his old team. Hill had a reason to play better last night. The bottom line is Hill isn't the PG of the future for the Pacers, and never will be. In order for the Pacers to ever challenge for a championship, they have to upgrade their PG position. The motor drives the engine, and Hill isn't the motor.

Annnnnd the Suns are 1-3 and average 92.3 ppg. Our offense isn't built around a PG getting others involved.

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 03:38 PM
What the Pacers need is a true PG. One that gets his team mates involved in the game and makes them better players. The latter part of last season I pointed out how Goran Dragic was playing when he took over for an injured Lowry. I campaigned during the off season for him. Houston let him go to the Suns, and in 4 games, the same Hill has started as the Pacers PG, Goran is averaging 14 pts, 8.8 asts, and 3.5 rebs.

It's been yeaaaars since the Pacers had a true PG. I'm not sure TPTB even knows what a true PG is. It's obviously not a converted combo guard named Geo Hill. I said when Bird was so set on having Hill it was a mistake. Walsh compounded that mistake by overpaying to keep Hill. Dragic is a far better PG than Hill at a little less than what Hill is being paid.

Posters have mentioned Hill's game last night, but not one pointed out Hill's game was playing against his old team. Hill had a reason to play better last night. The bottom line is Hill isn't the PG of the future for the Pacers, and never will be. In order for the Pacers to ever challenge for a championship, they have to upgrade their PG position. The motor drives the engine, and Hill isn't the motor.

Regarding the first bolded statement, here's a cookie? I mean, so you campaigned for him? Meaning, that would make a guy want to come to Indiana, or meaning the FO should have given him the same 4/$30M he got based on a solid 2 months? I get that he's good, and in fact I'm a fan. But he wasn't realistically an option without Indiana overpaying. As far as I remembered, he was excited about getting back to PHX. Hill was always the plan, everyone should have known that from the moment the FO traded for him. Unless an obviously better guard appeared, Hill was the plan at the 1.

And, regarding the second bolded statement, Donnie Walsh/Pritchard/Bird all disagree.

McKeyFan
11-06-2012, 03:41 PM
I'm a George Hill fan, but I am also one who wishes we had a true point guard. We don't. It is what it is. What we do have is an awesome finisher, clutch player, great decision maker who cannot create stuff for the offense by himself.

We need to put next to him creating types. This is why Lance is our best option next to Hill right now with Paul moved down to the 3. But when Granger returns, we will have similar (though not as severe) problems. Paul George is a great all around player, but he isn't the right guy next to George Hill. Not an easy problem to solve.

McKeyFan
11-06-2012, 04:24 PM
While watching the game Tyler was my favorite player. Why?

Because he looked to attack every time. Everyone else looked tentative. At least when Tyler gets the ball, you know he's going to go after it.

Yep. I think we had a few games last year when Granger was out, and I found myself actually appreciating the black hole mentality of Tyler and Kobe Jones. I agree with what someone else wrote: George Hill is the only perimeter player with enough stones to make something happen (and Lance, who sat last night).

Hicks
11-06-2012, 05:07 PM
We obviously had a true PG in DC and didn't realize it because our offense doesn't use a PG.

I suspect that's the current case with DJ.

Justin Tyme
11-06-2012, 05:17 PM
Regarding the first bolded statement, here's a cookie? I mean, so you campaigned for him? Meaning, that would make a guy want to come to Indiana, or meaning the FO should have given him the same 4/$30M he got based on a solid 2 months? I get that he's good, and in fact I'm a fan. But he wasn't realistically an option without Indiana overpaying. As far as I remembered, he was excited about getting back to PHX. Hill was always the plan, everyone should have known that from the moment the FO traded for him. Unless an obviously better guard appeared, Hill was the plan at the 1.

And, regarding the second bolded statement, Donnie Walsh/Pritchard/Bird all disagree.



SO they disagree. Does that make them right? None of the 3 have ever never made mistakes b4, right? Need I list some?

Overpaying Dragic?? I guess paying a combo guard, Hill, 8 mil to be the PG wasn't overpaying? What other teams were beating down the door to sign Hill?

Sookie
11-06-2012, 06:22 PM
How about Felton? Felton is looking great, passing the ball and getting everybody involved, not only that but he doesn't make much.

But it doesn't matter so long as we want our PG to score.

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 06:26 PM
How about Felton? Felton is looking great, passing the ball and getting everybody involved, not only that but he doesn't make much.

There is a Dunkin Donuts near the Fieldhouse...

TheDavisBrothers
11-06-2012, 07:07 PM
How about Felton? Felton is looking great, passing the ball and getting everybody involved, not only that but he doesn't make much.


There is a Dunkin Donuts near the Fieldhouse...

Felton plays great in NY, and was terrible in Denver and even worse as he got fat and out of shape in Portland. He odviously is motivated by the big lights, what makes you think he's not gonna go back to being fat and terrible with the Pacers? Cuz last I checked Indy isn't exactly a big market...

Derek2k3
11-06-2012, 07:11 PM
Felton plays great in NY, and was terrible in Denver and even worse as he got fat and out of shape in Portland. He odviously is motivated by the big lights, what makes you think he's not gonna go back to being fat and terrible with the Pacers? Cuz last I checked Indy isn't exactly a big market...

And all that midwest fried food :laugh:

rexnom
11-06-2012, 07:14 PM
What is George Hill doing wrong that a true PG abilities would, in his place, do better? I really don't get it. DJ Augustin looks worse out there offensively than Hill does (as did Collison). I don't think the issue is about true PG or not.

Ace E.Anderson
11-06-2012, 10:21 PM
What is George Hill doing wrong that a true PG abilities would, in his place, do better? I really don't get it. DJ Augustin looks worse out there offensively than Hill does (as did Collison). I don't think the issue is about true PG or not.

THANK YOU

bellisimo
11-07-2012, 04:34 AM
watching the Spurs play, I felt really jealous. They had these moments in the game where everyone was in sync and just dissecting our defense and making all these extra passes and dribble moves here and there that was just destroying us. It was a thing of beauty to see such a high level of IQ by the ball players to react that well to what the defense threw at them.

We on the other hand looked completely lost as if this was our first game as a team. This season we are not looking cohesive at all - that has been the troubling part. And the longer we look this way, the more fragile our individual players will become cause they just have that type of a personality.

I loved it when PG took that last shot at the end of 3rd against the Kings - he had all the confidence and went for it and got it - why can't he be like that EVERY possession in every game?

Hibbert and Duncan work out together in the off-season, and you could tell that Duncan basically knew whatever Hibb was going to do and just destroyed him. It was sad to see Hibbert fail so miserably like that - brought back flashbacks from his rookie season. So far he has only looked good for about a quarter in the first game and since then just hasn't been there.

The whole body language of the team looks like they're sleep walking - Its like West is the only guy on the floor who shows any sort of emotion.