PDA

View Full Version : Pacers/Kings postgame thread.



vnzla81
11-03-2012, 08:57 PM
I know a win is a win but damn this was an ugly game, Vogel was killing me today with his play calling, how many West Iso's and Hill fadeway shots he called today? this offense needs to get better ASP.



GO Pacers :dance:

CompACE
11-03-2012, 08:58 PM
One thing I learned: DeMarcus Cousins is ubertalented, BUT he's a huge knucklehead who doesn't listen.

LuckSwagger
11-03-2012, 09:00 PM
Pretty crappy week of basketball but we're 2-1. I'll take that.

Pacersalltheway10
11-03-2012, 09:00 PM
We need Danny back.

Dr. Awesome
11-03-2012, 09:01 PM
Well...I hope everyone enjoyed the scrub teams while they lasted.

rel
11-03-2012, 09:01 PM
As much as I wish PG would shoot more and be aggressive, he still put up some ridiculous stats...16 pts, 17 rbs, 4 blocks, 2 stls

Trophy
11-03-2012, 09:06 PM
My heart has been on a race these past few days.

We shouldn't have let the game slip to where it did, but we got the win and that's what matters. The TOs piling up have been killing us and that won't fly against the Spurs.

A lot of guys stepped up and had nice games. Gerald, for one. He looked a lot more relaxed and was able to play like himself.

Anthem
11-03-2012, 09:08 PM
I feel right now like West and Hill are trying to do to much. I'd like to have Danny back, certainly, but in large part it's so that West wouldn't feel the need to put up 20 shots.

immortality
11-03-2012, 09:09 PM
Without Granger, we don't really have a bench....

Eleazar
11-03-2012, 09:09 PM
As much as I wish PG would shoot more and be aggressive, he still put up some ridiculous stats...16 pts, 17 rbs, 4 blocks, 2 stls

I feel like Vogel hasn't bought into George and Hibbert as the go to guys. When things are close, or it is a big moment he almost always calls plays for West and Hill.

Ace E.Anderson
11-03-2012, 09:11 PM
Not to go over the edge, but Vogel's talked himself into a stooper with this smashmouth stuff. We look to the high post/pick nd iso game WAY too much. There's zero spacing, and our bigs can't get back in transition because they're both BELOW the FT line when a shot is rebounded.

Our starting PG is a natural scorer, let him look to score a little more as opposed to having him waste the shot clock until West decides to set a screen...with 7 secs on the shot clock.

How bout PG in the mid post? How bout GHill runs a dribble handoff with Roy? Lets let Lance run off a few staggered screens. ANYTHING but the pick nd pop to Weat for the ISO...ALL GAME!!

We got the lead early by having Hill post up, why wait till DBL OT to go back to it?

But hey, we're 2-1 without our best player..as long as we get the kinks worked out by mid season I'll feel better.

Johanvil
11-03-2012, 09:13 PM
Some terrible viewing.Happy only with the win and a couple of the players.FG% was again terrible as our 3pt% as well.We improved in the FT department.Our offense looks really stagnant and a game that should have been won easily, we made it unbelievably close.I will not say anything about Vogel that i might regret later but let's say i have serious doubts about his ability.3 next matches are really difficult and on the road.With performances like the last couple,we are gonna lose those games and quite easily i might say.

InYaFace
11-03-2012, 09:15 PM
Wow that game was tuff to watch...
Turnovers were a problem again and I hated the plays where Hill just dribbled and passed it out to Stephenson, wo just had nowhere to go...totally destroyed his shooting percentage tonight. I liked the 3 he hit in the first OT...
I did not understand why we played such a stagnant offense at the end, was really really ugly to watch this iso bull*****!
I am happy for Green, cause all of a sudden, the Green experiment doesn't look too bad, right? :D

picasso
11-03-2012, 09:16 PM
67 rebounds baby.. That's insane, Paul made huge plays defensively. Single handedly stopped the Kings fast break.
We are paying beyond sloppy!!!!!! This isn't smash mouth basketball. Iam-Dj-Green are not contributing. Our whole team
as a whole lacks focus. We play dumb and It isn't going to cut it. We need Danny back, He's a huge leader and holds
players accountable. I hope we are rusty because it's a long season. 2-1 not bad, But we should be 3-0 or Vice versa 0-3

Dr. Hibbert
11-03-2012, 09:22 PM
Had to miss this one. DVR'd, but sounds like I should probably just let PD tell the story here.

I know we're only three games in, but I'm starting to see some real red flags around Vogel.

Pingu
11-03-2012, 09:23 PM
Iam-Dj-Green are not contributing.

C'mon Picasso, I know you're a cubist and all, but you can't completely ignore reality: Green contributed nicely in this game (and could've done more hadn't Frank buried him on the bench).

Nuntius
11-03-2012, 09:25 PM
If every game of the season is like that then I don't think I'll be able to take it :laugh:

I'm glad for the win. That's all it matters.

xBulletproof
11-03-2012, 09:31 PM
One thing I learned: DeMarcus Cousins is ubertalented, BUT he's a huge knucklehead who doesn't listen.

I sat behind the bench. You have no clue. Garcia is on my **** list. I'll expand on it when I get home.

vnzla81
11-03-2012, 09:31 PM
Had to miss this one. DVR'd, but sounds like I should probably just let PD tell the story here.

I know we're only three games in, but I'm starting to see some real red flags around Vogel.

I agree, I have seen other games and other teams that are not even as good as the Pacers(at least in paper) run better offensive plays. I have been watching new Orleans and their coach call great play after great play, they even call pick and roll plays for Lopez(lol) and they work, why can't Vogel do that? I know his mentor sucked on the same thing but damn, it's frustrating to watch.

shags
11-03-2012, 09:47 PM
One thing I learned: DeMarcus Cousins is ubertalented, BUT he's a huge knucklehead who doesn't listen.

You were surprised by that.

It took Zach Randolph 10 years to figure it out. That's about how long it'll take Cousins. He won't stop being a knucklehead until he's around 30.

Dr. Hibbert
11-03-2012, 09:55 PM
I agree, I have seen other games and other teams that are not even as good as the Pacers(at least in paper) run better offensive plays. I have been watching new Orleans and their coach call great play after great play, they even call pick and roll plays for Lopez(lol) and they work, why can't Vogel do that? I know his mentor sucked on the same thing but damn, it's frustrating to watch.

My problem is that I can buy a lot of issues last year being a result of the lockout, lack of camp, etc. But those same issues exist—perhaps even more magnified—this year. What's his excuse now?

Justin Tyme
11-03-2012, 09:59 PM
The Pacers are 2-1, but could just as easily be 0-3. This team has averaged 90 points in 3 regulation games, and only 15 more in 10 min of OT. That's not going to win alot of games.

TO's are killing the Pacers, and a good many of them aren't forced TO's but from carelessness.

The Pacers shot 22 3ptrs in this game and 26 in the last game. This is just way too many 3's to be shooting. This team seems to want to be a jumpshooting team. They need to concentrate more on scoring in the paint.

The good news is that the Pacers are rebing well in all 3 games... 46, 52, & 67.

Things are going to have to change if the Pacers are going to be successful against teams that are better than Toronto, Charlotte, and Sacramento.

Personally, I felt Vogel could have and should have done some substituting in the OT's. GG is better playing with the 2nd unit, and until Granger comes back Lance should start at SG with PG at SF. JMOAA

Sparhawk
11-03-2012, 10:00 PM
I think I might be in agreement about Vogel. Had time to put together an offensive scheme and it still doesn't look like there is one.

Still early, but Vogel might need more time as an assistant.

Trader Joe
11-03-2012, 10:05 PM
So was Gerald Green scoring too efficiently or something or were we just really enjoying watching Lance get lost on defense at the end of the 4th and the OTs? Drove me nuts.

Anthem
11-03-2012, 10:05 PM
I think I might be in agreement about Vogel. Had time to put together an offensive scheme and it still doesn't look like there is one.

Here's the thing, though... if not for for the ridiculously sloppy passing, the offense would look a lot better. So why is the passing so bad? Did our playbook hit Wikileaks or MegaUpload, or what? Are we telegraphing? Just flat-out sloppy with the ball? Where did this come from?

McKeyFan
11-03-2012, 10:09 PM
C'mon Picasso, I know you're a cubist and all, but you can't completely ignore reality: Green contributed nicely in this game (and could've done more hadn't Frank buried him on the bench).

:laugh:

vnzla81
11-03-2012, 10:13 PM
@Mark_J_Boyle: Employee #21 is Dale Davis with offensive skills.



I'm not sure about that.

Ransom
11-03-2012, 10:13 PM
RT @Mark_J_Boyle Employee #21 is Dale Davis with offensive skills.

Edit: beat to the punch.

Dece
11-03-2012, 10:13 PM
Here's the thing, though... if not for for the ridiculously sloppy passing, the offense would look a lot better. So why is the passing so bad? Did our playbook hit Wikileaks or MegaUpload, or what? Are we telegraphing? Just flat-out sloppy with the ball? Where did this come from?

I'm not really sure that's true. We have way too many possessions that involve Hill dribbling the ball for the majority of the shot clock... and not dribbling trying to break anyone down, just stand still dribbling.

vnzla81
11-03-2012, 10:17 PM
Here's the thing, though... if not for for the ridiculously sloppy passing, the offense would look a lot better. So why is the passing so bad? Did our playbook hit Wikileaks or MegaUpload, or what? Are we telegraphing? Just flat-out sloppy with the ball? Where did this come from?

I don't think you need wiki leaks to know what the Pacers are going to do, all you have to do is watch the first quarter and you pretty much have all the plays.

Anthem
11-03-2012, 10:18 PM
I'm not really sure that's true. We have way too many possessions that involve Hill dribbling the ball for the majority of the shot clock... and not dribbling trying to break anyone down, just stand still dribbling.
True, but you've got to think some of that is timidity due to the awful turnover numbers.

Basically, I'm wondering what the heck happened to us to start turning the ball over like this. It wasn't like this in preseason, and it wasn't like this last season either.

cgg
11-03-2012, 10:21 PM
True, but you've got to think some of that is timidity due to the awful turnover numbers.

Basically, I'm wondering what the heck happened to us to start turning the ball over like this. It wasn't like this in preseason, and it wasn't like this last season either.

We had some pretty high turn over games at the start of last season.

McKeyFan
11-03-2012, 10:23 PM
So was Gerald Green scoring too efficiently or something or were we just really enjoying watching Lance get lost on defense at the end of the 4th and the OTs? Drove me nuts.

I saw pretty good D. Lance was +22 tonight. Led the team. He's +34 for the season. The closest to him is Hibbert at +17. Most of the team is closer to 0.

Sparhawk
11-03-2012, 10:24 PM
Turnovers have been an issue for awhile. You could chalk it up to being a young team. And though the Pacers are young, they should have too much experience to be playing like this.

But to be honest, I'm looking at box scores of many other team, and loads of teams are just being so sloppy. I'm hoping it's just cause it's the first week and players have some jitters and too much excitement. Hopefully the Pacers calm down before other teams and start playing better.

Mr_Smith
11-03-2012, 10:24 PM
Good win scratching and clawing in OT. I wish Marcus Thornton was on our team.....

Unclebuck
11-03-2012, 10:30 PM
The refs have really been letting them play this year. Shocked several times tonight when fouls were not called

cgg
11-03-2012, 10:32 PM
I was curious about what the TO numbers looked like at the start of a different season.

Tue, Nov 2, 1999 20 TO
Thu, Nov 4, 1999 32 TO
Sat, Nov 6, 1999 16 TO
Tue, Nov 9, 1999 16 TO
Thu, Nov 11, 1999 20 TO

2minutes twoa
11-03-2012, 10:37 PM
Great to be 2-1, should be 3-0, but these first 3 games have been God awful. Offensive spacing and execution has been terrible! Better play is ahead of us I'm sure!

xIndyFan
11-03-2012, 10:38 PM
you'd think that would work in the pacer's favor. less so now that Danny's hurt. but george hill may not last the month. officials seem to be trying to stay out of the way. that has to be a good thing.


The refs have really been letting them play this year. Shocked several times tonight when fouls were not called

cgg
11-03-2012, 10:46 PM
you'd think that would work in the pacer's favor. less so now that Danny's hurt. but george hill may not last the month. officials seem to be trying to stay out of the way. that has to be a good thing.

The Pacers were #3 in FTA last season, so I don't think it works in our favor at all.

xIndyFan
11-03-2012, 10:48 PM
The Pacers were #3 in FTA last season, so I don't think it works in our favor at all.

I was thinking of physical mismatches. But I see your point.

cgg
11-03-2012, 10:50 PM
I was thinking of physical mismatches. But I see your point.

We have good defenders and players like Roy who have learned to play good D without fouling by going straight up. We're getting punished by no calls on reaches on shooters.

rock747
11-03-2012, 10:54 PM
Why don't we go to our max center? Seems like all his pts come from put backs.

pacers74
11-03-2012, 10:57 PM
I may be looking at this through rose colored glasses, but without Danny and with Hill not 100%, I am happy with winning games anyway we can.

cgg
11-03-2012, 10:57 PM
Why don't we go to our max center? Seems like all his pts come from put backs.

I'm guessing that it was because he wasn't doing very well when they doubled.

skyfire
11-03-2012, 11:01 PM
They made tough work of it, but there are signs that Vogel is trying to change up some of the way we move the ball into the post this season. There seem to be a lot more entry passes being made towards Roy or West as they flash across the key. If they can get a catch there, they are very likely to score, but it is a trickier pass to make. There were still some horrible entry passes to the low post, but I've also seen the guy making the entry pass trying to move the defense around to get a better angle, which is a good sign.

George had 17 rebounds but I wish he would have stuck to Thornton down the stretch rather than sagging and trying to help out on the drive and scoop up boards. He needs to work on getting to the rim more often in half court offense. He needs to use better footwork and ball fakes to get his defender moving before he puts the ball on the floor because he only seems to go to the rim once he can get some space off of the guy guarding him.

I've liked what I have seen from Lance. He got stuck with the ball late in the shot clock a few times, but for the most part he was playing the percentages and had a pretty efficient game.

DJ Augustine is a real worry, he is much worse than Collison was defensively, not just in terms of quickness but positioning and understanding what opposing PGs want to do. George Hill had better stay healthy.

Ace E.Anderson
11-03-2012, 11:33 PM
They made tough work of it, but there are signs that Vogel is trying to change up some of the way we move the ball into the post this season. There seem to be a lot more entry passes being made towards Roy or West as they flash across the key. If they can get a catch there, they are very likely to score, but it is a trickier pass to make. There were still some horrible entry passes to the low post, but I've also seen the guy making the entry pass trying to move the defense around to get a better angle, which is a good sign.

George had 17 rebounds but I wish he would have stuck to Thornton down the stretch rather than sagging and trying to help out on the drive and scoop up boards. He needs to work on getting to the rim more often in half court offense. He needs to use better footwork and ball fakes to get his defender moving before he puts the ball on the floor because he only seems to go to the rim once he can get some space off of the guy guarding him.

I've liked what I have seen from Lance. He got stuck with the ball late in the shot clock a few times, but for the most part he was playing the percentages and had a pretty efficient game.

DJ Augustine is a real worry, he is much worse than Collison was defensively, not just in terms of quickness but positioning and understanding what opposing PGs want to do. George Hill had better stay healthy.

PG was guarding Evans, it was Stephenson getting caught ball watching who was guarding Thornton.

xIndyFan
11-03-2012, 11:38 PM
We have good defenders and players like Roy who have learned to play good D without fouling by going straight up. We're getting punished by no calls on reaches on shooters.

Didn't the Pacers foul way too much last season. And give up way too many FT's last season. My thinking less of that is a good thing. Plus it gives more positive mismatches to bigger guys.

cgg
11-03-2012, 11:44 PM
Didn't the Pacers foul way too much last season. And give up way too many FT's last season. My thinking less of that is a good thing. Plus it gives more positive mismatches to bigger guys.

The Pacers made 1349 free throws (2nd in the league) and their opponents made 1179 free throws last year.

cdash
11-03-2012, 11:45 PM
I don't think you need wiki leaks to know what the Pacers are going to do, all you have to do is watch the first quarter and you pretty much have all the plays.

Smashmouth basketball!

:laugh:

But seriously, the offense is as vanilla as it gets.

cgg
11-03-2012, 11:49 PM
2nd in FTM
3rd in FTA
3rd in FT%
2nd in FT/FGA

We want fouls to be called. Uncalled fouls are becoming TO.

vnzla81
11-04-2012, 12:00 AM
Smashmouth basketball!

:laugh:

But seriously, the offense is as vanilla as it gets.


Damn "smashmouth" :angry:

circlecitysportsfan
11-04-2012, 12:08 AM
Fun and frustrating game, happy we got the win. The scoreboard was nice, actually had to make a decision to either watch the court or the screen. It was that clean.

ECKrueger
11-04-2012, 12:17 AM
Fun and frustrating game, happy we got the win. The scoreboard was nice, actually had to make a decision to either watch the court or the screen. It was that clean.

We talked about that a lot - I found myself watching the board half the time.

Also, I wanted to point out DWest had 18 and 18! West...18 boards. Awesome.

graphic-er
11-04-2012, 12:50 AM
Hibbert and PG are so damn frustrating. Hibbert, I love his commitment to Defense and I mean he is just killing it on the Defensive end. I think he might be leading the league in blocked shots amoung bigs, and he put the clamps on Cousins in the 4th and OTs. But he is not bringing it offensively the way this team needs him with the absence of Granger. A player with his skill set should be able to get to the foul line more than once or twice a game. He isn't being very aggressive offensively.

Paul George.....same issue in my opinion. Love his commitment to grabbing those defensive rebounds. Extra possessions are key to winning games. Especially with this team. But my gosh does he like to disappear in the middle of the game...not seeing very much focus with him. He needs to probe the defense instead of just swinging the ball around.

croz24
11-04-2012, 01:07 AM
Couldn't watch the game, so my question is who was guarding Thornton? If Hill, that'd be 3 straight games now he's been torched defensively.

graphic-er
11-04-2012, 01:11 AM
Couldn't watch the game, so my question is who was guarding Thornton? If Hill, that'd be 3 straight games now he's been torched defensively.

Hill was guarding their poing guards...Thomas and Brooks.

Green and Lance guarded Thorton for the most part.

King Tuts Tomb
11-04-2012, 01:27 AM
Couldn't watch the game, so my question is who was guarding Thornton? If Hill, that'd be 3 straight games now he's been torched defensively.

On the three pointer at the end of the fourth quarter to tie it, Paul George was on Thorton and was standing at about the free throw line. He was ball watching and got stuck for a half second behind Lance under the three point line.

On Thorton's 3 in overtime, Brooks got lost in the lane and shoveled it to Chuck Haynes. George stepped toward the lane as Hayes threw a pretty difficult pass crosscourt to Thorton in the corner who hit the three.

Both times George actually had a pretty good challenge on the ball but he started a step too far inside and couldn't recover. I notice LeBron getting burned in this way a lot. I think it might have something to do with begin so athletic that you're sure you can play off your man and still have time to recover if they get the ball.

Eleazar
11-04-2012, 01:36 AM
On the three pointer at the end of the fourth quarter to tie it, Paul George was on Thorton and was standing at about the free throw line. He was ball watching and got stuck for a half second behind Lance under the three point line.

On Thorton's 3 in overtime, Brooks got lost in the lane and shoveled it to Chuck Haynes. George stepped toward the lane as Hayes threw a pretty difficult pass crosscourt to Thorton in the corner who hit the three.

Both times George actually had a pretty good challenge on the ball but he started a step too far inside and couldn't recover. I notice LeBron getting burned in this way a lot. I think it might have something to do with begin so athletic that you're sure you can play off your man and still have time to recover if they get the ball.

If it wasn't for Lance being in the way that once George would have been able to recover just fine. He saw that the pass was going to be made, and would have been right there possibly even getting his hand or fingers on the pass if he didn't run into Lance.

xBulletproof
11-04-2012, 03:36 AM
I sat behind the bench. You have no clue. Garcia is on my **** list. I'll expand on it when I get home.

My God, I posted this, and it seems like forever ago. I said 'when I get home' like it meant nothing, like it's a foregone conclusion. On the way home from the Pacers game at Keystone and Kessler my gf and I were blasted into by a drunk driver. I just got home from the hospital a little bit ago. Everything hurts. This WAS a Mitsubishi Lancer a few hours ago, and now it looks like a toaster someone shot with a shotgun.

It's a good thing a cop was there to see the accident and was on site before I even got out of my car. He actually hit us twice, and when he hit us the 2nd time I felt like it was someone doing it on purpose. Targeting me. Combine that with the last time I was in a crash the guy pulled a gun on me, you can probably understand but, I got the car to roll as far away as I could for my gf's sake (remember, I thought someone did it on purpose), and I immediately jumped out ready for war. The cop kept us separated from him and arrested him before I ever even saw him. He thought he didn't 'hit us that hard' and he should be able to drive home. For ****s sakes my trunk was in my back seat.

He hit us so hard my seat broke and after I blacked out for a second, the next thing I knew I was looking at the roof of my car and it took me a second, but I realized we were still moving. I have no clue how fast he had to be going. We were going 30 MPH when he hit us from behind, so we were moving in the same direction and look how much damage he did to my car anyway. So when I came to from the intial hit I grabbed the wheel and took control of the car. Then he hit us AGAIN. He hit us so hard in the rear end of my car, that my navigation screen was popped out of my dashboard and it was warped.

Don't take anything for granted. Anything can happen at anytime.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Pacersfan46/IMAG0165.jpg

cgg
11-04-2012, 03:51 AM
Holy crap. He did that and thought he didn't hit you that hard? wtf.

presto123
11-04-2012, 03:57 AM
My God, I posted this, and it seems like forever ago. I said 'when I get home' like it meant nothing, like it's a foregone conclusion. On the way home from the Pacers game at Keystone and Kessler my gf and I were blasted into by a drunk driver. I just got home from the hospital a little bit ago. Everything hurts. This WAS a Mitsubishi Lancer a few hours ago, and now it looks like a toaster someone shot with a shotgun.

It's a good thing a cop was there to see the accident and was on site before I even got out of my car. He actually hit us twice, and when he hit us the 2nd time I felt like it was someone doing it on purpose. Targeting me. Combine that with the last time I was in a crash the guy pulled a gun on me, you can probably understand but, I got the car to roll as far away as I could for my gf's sake (remember, I thought someone did it on purpose), and I immediately jumped out ready for war. The cop kept us separated from him and arrested him before I ever even saw him. He thought he didn't 'hit us that hard' and he should be able to drive home. For ****s sakes my trunk was in my back seat.

He hit us so hard my seat broke and after I blacked out for a second, the next thing I knew I was looking at the roof of my car and it took me a second, but I realized we were still moving. I have no clue how fast he had to be going. We were going 30 MPH when he hit us from behind, so we were moving in the same direction and look how much damage he did to my car anyway. So when I came to from the intial hit I grabbed the wheel and took control of the car. Then he hit us AGAIN. He hit us so hard in the rear end of my car, that my navigation screen was popped out of my dashboard and it was warped.

Don't take anything for granted. Anything can happen at anytime.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Pacersfan46/IMAG0165.jpg

Wow dude. Glad you are alive!

wintermute
11-04-2012, 03:59 AM
Ouch. Glad you and your gf are all right, xBP.

xBulletproof
11-04-2012, 04:03 AM
Wow dude. Glad you are alive!

That ... makes two of us. I actually asked the cop to give me 5 minutes with the ****ing drunk and turn his back to us. Hey, any injuries, blame them on the crash. Ugh. I'm still seething. When this anger wears off I'm going to really be hurting.

Anyway, I meant to put this in my last post, but what I was referring to about Garcia in my first post was what he did the last play in regulation. I don't know if they spotted it on TV, but Garcia was on the bench. When the last play started Lance went to cut, and Garcia was looking at the ref to make sure he wasn't looking, and started holding Lance's jersey so he couldn't run. FROM THE BENCH. That is the 2nd most irritating thing I saw today.

And wintermute, I guess okay is a relative term. I'm going to survive and I'm not in the hospital but the doctor said it will be weeks before I feel normal again.

Peck
11-04-2012, 04:10 AM
xbulletproof I am very happy you and your GF are alive. Pain no doubt, but it beats not feeling anything.

I've seen to many drunk drivers in my life & it never fails to amaze me that more often than not they are oblivious to what they do & somehow often walk away injury free.

cgg
11-04-2012, 04:59 AM
That ... makes two of us. I actually asked the cop to give me 5 minutes with the ****ing drunk and turn his back to us. Hey, any injuries, blame them on the crash. Ugh. I'm still seething. When this anger wears off I'm going to really be hurting.

Anyway, I meant to put this in my last post, but what I was referring to about Garcia in my first post was what he did the last play in regulation. I don't know if they spotted it on TV, but Garcia was on the bench. When the last play started Lance went to cut, and Garcia was looking at the ref to make sure he wasn't looking, and started holding Lance's jersey so he couldn't run. FROM THE BENCH. That is the 2nd most irritating thing I saw today.

And wintermute, I guess okay is a relative term. I'm going to survive and I'm not in the hospital but the doctor said it will be weeks before I feel normal again.

Make sure you get anything lingering checked out and taken care of.

Heisenberg
11-04-2012, 05:10 AM
I've been checking in on this thread through the night to hear some Francisco Garcia gossip. Clearly not what any of us expected. Glad to know you and your lady are OK xBulletproof.

And **** that guy. Throw the book at him.

indygeezer
11-04-2012, 05:32 AM
Dude, happy to see you and the GF are "ok". Just remind me to never double date with you, ok? I have a feeling that it was a very good thing that officer was there.

clownskull
11-04-2012, 05:37 AM
wow, judging from the damage- i would guess he must have been going well in excess of twice of the 30 mph you were going at the time. i am no collision expert but he was probably doing an easy 75+ mph.
chances are it isn't that scumbag's 1st dwi. but it is still definitely worth pursuing a lawsuit anyway just to get whatever you can if anything. i would think he is definitely going to jail for quite a while for this as i can't see how he wouldn't.

Heisenberg
11-04-2012, 05:58 AM
I'm gonna say it since no one else will. Frank's got a franchise option for next season. I'm more than willing to pursue our options. What's up Jeff van Gundy?

I adore Frank Vogel. But he's a college coach.

Anthem
11-04-2012, 07:54 AM
Wow, BP. Glad you're ok.

Kid Minneapolis
11-04-2012, 08:02 AM
Damn. Rest up xbp.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Foul on Smits
11-04-2012, 08:17 AM
My God, I posted this, and it seems like forever ago. I said 'when I get home' like it meant nothing, like it's a foregone conclusion. On the way home from the Pacers game at Keystone and Kessler my gf and I were blasted into by a drunk driver. I just got home from the hospital a little bit ago. Everything hurts. This WAS a Mitsubishi Lancer a few hours ago, and now it looks like a toaster someone shot with a shotgun.

It's a good thing a cop was there to see the accident and was on site before I even got out of my car. He actually hit us twice, and when he hit us the 2nd time I felt like it was someone doing it on purpose. Targeting me. Combine that with the last time I was in a crash the guy pulled a gun on me, you can probably understand but, I got the car to roll as far away as I could for my gf's sake (remember, I thought someone did it on purpose), and I immediately jumped out ready for war. The cop kept us separated from him and arrested him before I ever even saw him. He thought he didn't 'hit us that hard' and he should be able to drive home. For ****s sakes my trunk was in my back seat.

He hit us so hard my seat broke and after I blacked out for a second, the next thing I knew I was looking at the roof of my car and it took me a second, but I realized we were still moving. I have no clue how fast he had to be going. We were going 30 MPH when he hit us from behind, so we were moving in the same direction and look how much damage he did to my car anyway. So when I came to from the intial hit I grabbed the wheel and took control of the car. Then he hit us AGAIN. He hit us so hard in the rear end of my car, that my navigation screen was popped out of my dashboard and it was warped.

Don't take anything for granted. Anything can happen at anytime.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Pacersfan46/IMAG0165.jpg

***** dude! I'm glad you're all right. How's the girlfriend?

OlBlu
11-04-2012, 08:34 AM
My God, I posted this, and it seems like forever ago. I said 'when I get home' like it meant nothing, like it's a foregone conclusion. On the way home from the Pacers game at Keystone and Kessler my gf and I were blasted into by a drunk driver. I just got home from the hospital a little bit ago. Everything hurts. This WAS a Mitsubishi Lancer a few hours ago, and now it looks like a toaster someone shot with a shotgun.

It's a good thing a cop was there to see the accident and was on site before I even got out of my car. He actually hit us twice, and when he hit us the 2nd time I felt like it was someone doing it on purpose. Targeting me. Combine that with the last time I was in a crash the guy pulled a gun on me, you can probably understand but, I got the car to roll as far away as I could for my gf's sake (remember, I thought someone did it on purpose), and I immediately jumped out ready for war. The cop kept us separated from him and arrested him before I ever even saw him. He thought he didn't 'hit us that hard' and he should be able to drive home. For ****s sakes my trunk was in my back seat.

He hit us so hard my seat broke and after I blacked out for a second, the next thing I knew I was looking at the roof of my car and it took me a second, but I realized we were still moving. I have no clue how fast he had to be going. We were going 30 MPH when he hit us from behind, so we were moving in the same direction and look how much damage he did to my car anyway. So when I came to from the intial hit I grabbed the wheel and took control of the car. Then he hit us AGAIN. He hit us so hard in the rear end of my car, that my navigation screen was popped out of my dashboard and it was warped.

Don't take anything for granted. Anything can happen at anytime.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Pacersfan46/IMAG0165.jpg

Be well and be safe.... There are crazies out there in the world...:cool:

graphic-er
11-04-2012, 09:29 AM
I'm gonna say it since no one else will. Frank's got a franchise option for next season. I'm more than willing to pursue our options. What's up Jeff van Gundy?

I adore Frank Vogel. But he's a college coach.

I can't really stand up and defend Vogel over these 3 games so far, he has been an enigma.

For the life of me I can't understand the play that was drawn up to end regulation. Why give David West the ball above the arc with 3 seconds left? He is not somebody who is going to drive and get great separation from that distance. Its rather amateurish. I have a hard time accepting that was the play he drew out in the huddle. But the inbounder waited for West to flash up to the top of the key. I don't think it was a desperation pass there. Nor did West set a ball screen for the inbounder to get a hand off. I mean a really terrible play to end a game. No chance what so ever to win.

Cousy47
11-04-2012, 09:32 AM
This. IMO, all the teams in the league pretty much know the offensive sets the other teams are going to use. That's why they do so much film study. The Coach draws up the plays thet his team is best at (against what he knows aout the opponent's defense) then calls them. The execution of the plays is up to the players on the floor.Sloopy handles, lazy, bad passes and the decision to yo-yo the ball, are things players have control of. I get incensed about the rotation of players when they are playing well, but I'm not the Coach.

CJ Jones
11-04-2012, 09:50 AM
PG was guarding Evans, it was Stephenson getting caught ball watching who was guarding Thornton.

Lance was responsible for a couple Thornton 3, but the game tiers in OT were on Paul.


Couldn't watch the game, so my question is who was guarding Thornton? If Hill, that'd be 3 straight games now he's been torched defensively.

It wasnt Hill. Lance and Paul guarded him for the most part.

edit: nevermind i dont know how i missed graphic-ers post. i even said the exact same thing lol


If it wasn't for Lance being in the way that once George would have been able to recover just fine. He saw that the pass was going to be made, and would have been right there possibly even getting his hand or fingers on the pass if he didn't run into Lance.

I thought, for a second, the same thing until I watched the replay. In that situation, theres really no reason for Paul to be in the paint 10 feet away from their best shooter. I gotta blame Paul on that one.

xIndyFan
11-04-2012, 09:58 AM
This. IMO, all the teams in the league pretty much know the offensive sets the other teams are going to use. That's why they do so much film study. The Coach draws up the plays thet his team is best at (against what he knows aout the opponent's defense) then calls them. The execution of the plays is up to the players on the floor.Sloopy handles, lazy, bad passes and the decision to yo-yo the ball, are things players have control of. I get incensed about the rotation of players when they are playing well, but I'm not the Coach.

this x 10. The offensive problems the Pacers are having seem, to me at least, more about execution by the players than Frank's strategy. The reason David gets the ball so much is he's the only reliable scorer. Pacers got caught by the shot clock a lot last night, hopefully that will go away as the season progresses.

xIndyFan
11-04-2012, 10:08 AM
. . . In that situation, theres really no reason for Paul to be in the paint 10 feet away from their best shooter. I gotta blame Paul on that one.

In defense of Lance and Paul, some of Thorton's being open is the basic Pacer defense. The wings are asked to help out inside a lot. Not only with rebounding, but also rim defense. The Pacers have made a conscious decision to take away the front of the paint. So there will be some open outside shots.

At the game, I thought Thorton shot much better than I did looking at his stats. He got 27 points, but took 21 shots. 4 of 10 from 3 point range is good, but not super. We noticed the 4 makes, but not the 6 misses. He had a nice game, hit some big shots, but it wasn't the killer game it looked like in person.

idioteque
11-04-2012, 10:11 AM
My God, I posted this, and it seems like forever ago. I said 'when I get home' like it meant nothing, like it's a foregone conclusion. On the way home from the Pacers game at Keystone and Kessler my gf and I were blasted into by a drunk driver. I just got home from the hospital a little bit ago. Everything hurts. This WAS a Mitsubishi Lancer a few hours ago, and now it looks like a toaster someone shot with a shotgun.

It's a good thing a cop was there to see the accident and was on site before I even got out of my car. He actually hit us twice, and when he hit us the 2nd time I felt like it was someone doing it on purpose. Targeting me. Combine that with the last time I was in a crash the guy pulled a gun on me, you can probably understand but, I got the car to roll as far away as I could for my gf's sake (remember, I thought someone did it on purpose), and I immediately jumped out ready for war. The cop kept us separated from him and arrested him before I ever even saw him. He thought he didn't 'hit us that hard' and he should be able to drive home. For ****s sakes my trunk was in my back seat.

He hit us so hard my seat broke and after I blacked out for a second, the next thing I knew I was looking at the roof of my car and it took me a second, but I realized we were still moving. I have no clue how fast he had to be going. We were going 30 MPH when he hit us from behind, so we were moving in the same direction and look how much damage he did to my car anyway. So when I came to from the intial hit I grabbed the wheel and took control of the car. Then he hit us AGAIN. He hit us so hard in the rear end of my car, that my navigation screen was popped out of my dashboard and it was warped.

Don't take anything for granted. Anything can happen at anytime.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Pacersfan46/IMAG0165.jpg

Glad you are okay. My first boss was killed by a drunk driver on State Road 44 almost 10 years ago. You just never know...

CJ Jones
11-04-2012, 10:12 AM
cgg's post in the Lance thread reminded me and I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but what was Vogel thinking with the West iso to end regulation? That was just awful and uncreative. Then the shot Hill got in OT wasn't much better. That's gotta be embarassing for a head coach.

edit: did it again, I should probably read through the thread before I post :banghead:

Sandman21
11-04-2012, 01:00 PM
Anyway, I meant to put this in my last post, but what I was referring to about Garcia in my first post was what he did the last play in regulation. I don't know if they spotted it on TV, but Garcia was on the bench. When the last play started Lance went to cut, and Garcia was looking at the ref to make sure he wasn't looking, and started holding Lance's jersey so he couldn't run. FROM THE BENCH. That is the 2nd most irritating thing I saw today.

Are you sure it was the last play from regulation? I just ran it on my DVR and while Lance is on that baseline, nobody appears to grab his jersey. In fact it appears nobody is close enough to do so. I can believe the rest of the story though, it seemed like Demarcus got away with a foul on nearly every Pacers defensive rebound in the overtime periods... And I thought I saw someone physically holding onto Roy by his jersey OUT on the floor... of course no call...

Take some serious ibuprofen and a couple days from work and get some rest. Your going to feel that one for awhile. The last time I was in a auto accident, I'm convinced that if I hadn't been in a minivan at the time I would have been in really bad shape (got T-boned by a pickup running 70mph on a country backroad). Even then, it was five months before I could use my left arm without experiencing some pain. And of course being the then 24 year old idiot I was, I didn't take any time for work to try and recuperate.... I think that made things worse lol.

gummy
11-04-2012, 01:35 PM
I can't really stand up and defend Vogel over these 3 games so far, he has been an enigma.

For the life of me I can't understand the play that was drawn up to end regulation. Why give David West the ball above the arc with 3 seconds left? He is not somebody who is going to drive and get great separation from that distance. Its rather amateurish. I have a hard time accepting that was the play he drew out in the huddle. But the inbounder waited for West to flash up to the top of the key. I don't think it was a desperation pass there. Nor did West set a ball screen for the inbounder to get a hand off. I mean a really terrible play to end a game. No chance what so ever to win.

I have a hard time believing that this is what he drew up too. Not just because we've heard a lot about how Vogel listens to input from his assistants and even from the players (so then we have to believe that the players and Brian Shaw and everyone else all co-signed this - it's not a JOB situation where everyone is afraid to speak up), but because when he first took over we actually started scoring out of timeouts! It was a big deal on PD because previously under JOB we all knew we weren't going to score out of a timeout.

Clearly our guys have been sloppy with the ball. Look at all the turnovers - and we're getting our passes deflected quite a bit too. I think most of them are a half step slow executing and/or rushing things - and that can be the difference between a successful play and sloppy chaos. I think the insertion of Green into the lineup is a also big deal. Many of our plays were probably designed to take advantage of our much lauded chemistry - last year's starting five worked well off of each other. Green was a deer in the headlights the first two games. It's not just about missing Danny's scoring or on/off defensive intensity. This is bigger than the sum of its parts.

There are a lot of little things that the players ultimately control. Take Tyler. I've been pleased with his play overall. He actually set some nice screens in the first two games. We know that screening drills with our players being smacked with big pads were a part of training camp - Vogel talked about wanting our bigs to set real, hard screens. But last night Tyler reverted to his maddening little slip screen, where he doesn't even make contact with opposing player and the ball handler has no space to work. I don't think that's because Vogel said before the game, "Hey Tyler, never mind go ahead and set pansy screens." Do you? I think it's because we're trying to change habits and it takes time.

I know I should be used to it by now, but it's kind of amazing how much rumbling there is already about Vogel being replaced/clueless/a college coach. We have a significantly re-built bench and a very important player missing from our starting lineup. We've got a starting point guard who is playing through a painful injury. Yes, we've not played well. But we're three games into the season!

cgg
11-04-2012, 01:46 PM
http://f.cl.ly/items/0I1K2d2915200A211F1K/last%20play%20in%20regulation.png

Looks to me like he was supposed to lob it to PG, but the defender didn't give him space.

cgg
11-04-2012, 01:47 PM
http://f.cl.ly/items/2z3R363N3L1k2Q3B0T3U/lastplay2.png

Sandman21
11-04-2012, 01:48 PM
I have a hard time believing that this is what he drew up too. Not just because we've heard a lot about how Vogel listens to input from his assistants and even from the players (so then have to believe that the players and Brian Shaw and everyone else all co-signed this - it's not a JOB situation where everyone is afraid to speak up), but because when he first took over we actually started scoring out of timeouts! It was a big deal on PD because previously under JOB we all knew we weren't going to score out of a timeout.

Clearly our guys have been sloppy with the ball. Look at all the turnovers - and we're getting our passes deflected quite a bit too. I think most of them are a half step slow executing and/or rushing things - and that can be the difference between a successful play and sloppy chaos. I think the insertion of Green into the lineup is a also big deal. Many of our plays were probably designed to take advantage of our much lauded chemistry - last year's starting five worked well off of each other. Green was a deer in the headlights the first two games. It's not just about missing Danny's scoring or on/off defensive intensity. This is bigger than the sum of its parts.

There are a lot of little things that the players ultimately control. Take Tyler. I've been pleased with his play overall. He actually set some nice screens in the first two games. We know that screening drills with our players being smacked with big pads were a part of training camp - Vogel talked about wanting our bigs to set real, hard screens. But last night Tyler reverted to his maddening little slip screen, where he doesn't even make contact with opposing player and the ball handler has no space to work. I don't think that's because Vogel said before the game, "Hey Tyler, never mind go ahead and set pansy screens." Do you? I think it's because we're trying to change habits and it takes time.

I know I should be used to it by now, but it's kind of amazing how much rumbling there is already about Vogel being replaced/clueless/a college coach. We have a significantly re-built bench and a very important player missing from our starting lineup. We've got a starting point guard who is playing through a painful injury. Yes, we've not played well. But we're three games into the season!

THANK YOU!

gummy
11-04-2012, 02:08 PM
http://f.cl.ly/items/2z3R363N3L1k2Q3B0T3U/lastplay2.png

Good call - it does look like he was supposed to lob to PG. Too bad West couldn't manage to get the pass over the defenders, because PG was wiiiide open! When the play was broken he should have tried a pass to Hill instead of taking that horrible contested three.

I could quibble with using West to initiate this play. I understand that was probably done because West is usually a steady vet type - he doesn't make a lot of mistakes on offense. But I might have gambled with Roy out there instead. He's taller and could probably handle the double-team better when he's not trapped on the post and we know he's a good passing big man. And who knows, Cousins might have made a boneheaded move that proved useful to us. :)

Seriously though guys - just because you didn't see what the play might have been in the moment, that doesn't mean there wasn't one or that what happened was the plan. Sometimes it just means the players couldn't execute it, whether it's because they ****ed up or the defense was especially good, or both. We're awfully quick to conclude that there was no real plan when whatever happens doesn't result in scoring.

Eleazar
11-04-2012, 02:32 PM
Good call - it does look like he was supposed to lob to PG. Too bad West couldn't manage to get the pass over the defenders, because PG was wiiiide open! When the play was broken he should have tried a pass to Hill instead of taking that horrible contested three.

I could quibble with using West to initiate this play. I understand that was probably done because West is usually a steady vet type - he doesn't make a lot of mistakes on offense. But I might have gambled with Roy out there instead. He's taller and could probably handle the double-team better when he's not trapped on the post and we know he's a good passing big man. And who knows, Cousins might have made a boneheaded move that proved useful to us. :)

Seriously though guys - just because you didn't see what the play might have been in the moment, that doesn't mean there wasn't one or that what happened was the plan. Sometimes it just means the players couldn't execute it, whether it's because they ****ed up or the defense was especially good, or both. We're awfully quick to conclude that there was no real plan when whatever happens doesn't result in scoring.

If it was a lob to PG I would have either had DJ or Lance with the ball making the pass.

cgg
11-04-2012, 02:37 PM
If it was a lob to PG I would have either had DJ or Lance with the ball making the pass.

DJ to small. Maybe Lance. But then spacing is off. West draws big out of paint being out there. PG maybe could have lobbed it to Green.

vnzla81
11-04-2012, 02:42 PM
That play looks to me like the play they call all the time, ISO and fadeway for West on the right side of the court.

cgg
11-04-2012, 02:45 PM
That play looks to me like the play they call all the time, ISO and fadeway for West on the right side of the court.

He's not even on the right side of the court, and he's to far out. He had to have been meant to pass.

Eleazar
11-04-2012, 02:51 PM
DJ to small. Maybe Lance. But then spacing is off. West draws big out of paint being out there. PG maybe could have lobbed it to Green.

I agree I would go with Lance also. In that situation I would have had 4 wing players and only one big, probably West for his mid range shot, so the defense wouldn't cheat.

gummy
11-04-2012, 03:00 PM
I agree I would go with Lance also. In that situation I would have had 4 wing players and only one big, probably West for his mid range shot, so the defense wouldn't cheat.

I agree that DJ is too small to make it work. It could have worked with Lance as you describe. I'd still feel more comfortable with Hibbert in that situation though. I like what Lance has shown us so far this season, but I'm not sure I trust him with the ball in his hands to make that play...yet.

Derek2k3
11-04-2012, 05:08 PM
I was really hoping they'd run Gerald as a decoy, fake the inbounds lob to him, then give it to Roy/David/Paul in the post. If the defense didn't shift over to Green, throw it up and give him a shot at the dunk. Otherwise, someone should have been open in the 12-20 foot range, perfect for any of Roy/David/Paul.

I think Sac played incredible defense on that last play. Harassed David, took away the lob etc.