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McKeyFan
11-02-2012, 08:47 PM
I think he had his best game so far as a pro tonight.

Good enough that Vogel put him back in at the end of the game instead of Greene. But then Vogel replaced him with Augustine, which I can understand. However, the way things turned out, it would have been nice to see what might have happened if Lance was in at the end.

Lance is playing with confidence on offense and seems to be vocal and aggressive on defense.

I wouldn't call last night a breakout game for him, but it was close.

vnzla81
11-02-2012, 08:49 PM
Lance was pretty good today, he should have been there at the end.

imawhat
11-02-2012, 08:50 PM
It was nice to see him play aggressively. He was slightly out of control, but I'd rather see that than the tentative version of Lance.

TheDavisBrothers
11-02-2012, 08:55 PM
If his outside shot keeps falling and defenders have to respect that, I'm pretty excited with his prospects going forward. You can see real development in decision making, playing sound and within the game, and cutting the mental mistakes. Odviously he still hasn't put it all together yet, but he's getting there...

Anthem
11-02-2012, 08:58 PM
The shooting is nice, no doubt about it. I don't recall seeing somebody re-engineer their entire jump shot like that. His jumper looks nothing like when he came into the league.

What I really like, though, is that he seems to genuinely enjoy setting guys up. He does as good a job as anybody on the team at getting the ball to guys inside, either by setting up a guy that's posted or by going into the lane and passing.

No, he's not a finished product. But there's real potential there. If anybody on the team could have hit a shot in the last 5 possessions, Lance would have been the hero of the game.

xIndyFan
11-02-2012, 09:01 PM
I thought lance and paul played well together. their games seemed to go together well.

pizza guy
11-02-2012, 09:07 PM
And of course this is the game I miss, lol. Guess he will have to do it again.

MaHa3000
11-02-2012, 09:18 PM
With Lance , I think we got a keeper. He looks to me as a career sixth man/ occasional starter with a friendly contract.

Why not move him up in the rotation. He shows more basketball IQ than Green and fits in better with the starting unit. IMO. I'm hoping that, while Granger is out, Lance replaces Green in the starting line up. Green has been a disappointment to me in these first two games. Lance has been outstanding.

glazedham42
11-02-2012, 09:23 PM
Lance looked really good pulling down those defensive rebounds and taking off the other way. He is strong enough to pull down defensive boards in traffic and when he gets out in the open he has the speed and handles to run the break. Plus he actually has the court vision and the ability to make the pass at the end. I think we saw what Lance could be for the first time tonight. I hope he gets some of Green's minutes tomorrow b/c he deserves them. I don't understand why Green got 30 minutes tonight when he was by far the worst player.

CJ Jones
11-02-2012, 09:24 PM
It was nice to see him play aggressively. He was slightly out of control, but I'd rather see that than the tentative version of Lance.

He has to play that way or he's almost useless. He'll make mistakes playing that way for a while, but I think eventually the game will slow down for him.

He was our best player creating offense against the Cats zone, but what really impressed me tonight (and in Toronto) was his demeanor on the court. He seems like he's more engaged, and he's not sulking as much after bad plays. ANd he's just simply playing harder. Pretty good start to the season.

TheDavisBrothers
11-02-2012, 09:29 PM
To add on, I love the fact that he alleviates some of the pressure on the PG with his ball handling and passing, without needing to dominate the ball. A wing that can run the offense without giving up size is a very nice thing to have...

Kid Minneapolis
11-02-2012, 09:30 PM
He had his best game. Nothing earth-shattering, but good for what we've come to expect from him. He had two bad passes that were just bad decisions. Did well shooting the ball, though. I think he's more comfortable at the 2.

BlueNGold
11-02-2012, 09:32 PM
I agree that this was Lance's best game as a pro. It's not about the scoring but several little things. I think at this point he's a pretty good backup with some upside.

BTW, I am pretty surprised he's improved this much. I was not sure he had a position in the NBA. At this point, I would say he could play 3 positions as a backup, but probably not the guy you want starting. That too could change though.

Anthem
11-02-2012, 09:49 PM
Also impressed with how much effort he put into running down the court, going both ways. I wouldn't say he has the most foot speed, but he sure tried to outrun everybody.

Miller_time04
11-02-2012, 10:02 PM
Lol lance in the starting line Up? Really? He would fold more under the pressure than green is doing. Give him a chance. It's been two games. You guys turn ur backs on players so easily.

Eleazar
11-02-2012, 11:03 PM
Right now he looks more like 6th man material than Green. I am not giving up on Green, although I do think if Young is healthy enough he should start over him, but so far Lance has easily outplayed him.

Since86
11-02-2012, 11:13 PM
Lance really set people up nicely in the first half. He got both Tyler and Ian to the FT line, off of him making the play. I don't know if he can ever be a PG, don't know if he can keep his head small enough for long stretches.

Eleazar
11-02-2012, 11:21 PM
Lance really set people up nicely in the first half. He got both Tyler and Ian to the FT line, off of him making the play. I don't know if he can ever be a PG, don't know if he can keep his head small enough for long stretches.

I think he is most useful when paired with another point guard or combo guard.

Foul on Smits
11-03-2012, 02:28 AM
His game management looks sooooo much better than it was a few years ago. He looks like he has a feel for the game.

Heisenberg
11-03-2012, 02:44 AM
How bout we discuss Lance on a night where he didn't have one of his two best games of his life?

CJ Jones
11-03-2012, 05:46 AM
How bout we discuss Lance on a night where he didn't have one of his two best games of his life?

He was arguably our best player tonight in a game that matters, and it's probably the first time he's ever strung a couple good games together in a row. With the crap he gets around here I think it's only fair to recognize that.

Can we at least admit he's talented now?

Heisenberg
11-03-2012, 05:54 AM
He was arguably our best player tonight in a game that matters, and it's probably the first time he's ever strung a couple good games together in a row. With the crap he gets around here I think it's only fair to recognize that.

Can we at least admit he's talented now?
I'm more than fine with that. Lance legitimately played very well, and I'm not a fan of the guy at all. It's just a convenient timing to start a thread like this.

TheDavisBrothers
11-03-2012, 06:07 AM
I'm more than fine with that. Lance legitimately played very well, and I'm not a fan of the guy at all. It's just a convenient timing to start a thread like this.

No offense but, I'd say its pretty common to see a thread started about a player after they have a great game, or conversely a terrible game. Get used to convenient timing...

Steagles
11-03-2012, 06:19 AM
Tonight he proved why Larry Bird was so high on him. He proved why we needed to keep him. I think, tonight, he proved he's got what got what it takes to be an all star.

Heisenberg
11-03-2012, 06:36 AM
No offense but, I'd say its pretty common to see a thread started about a player after they have a great game, or conversely a terrible game. Get used to convenient timing...

Doesn't make any immediate reactions any more valid. That's my point.

CJ Jones
11-03-2012, 07:25 AM
I agree that this was Lance's best game as a pro. It's not about the scoring but several little things. I think at this point he's a pretty good backup with some upside.

BTW, I am pretty surprised he's improved this much. I was not sure he had a position in the NBA. At this point, I would say he could play 3 positions as a backup, but probably not the guy you want starting. That too could change though.

I agree. Some of his pass fakes and subtle dribble moves to free up entry passes or rotate defenses are real impressive.

re Lance playing 3 postitions... I think his best position defensively might be SF. He's not gonna get pushed around by most SFs, and it would somewhat negate his main weakness defensively, getting around screens.

He did okay defensively last night, but he never should have been guarding Walker or Gordon when Paul was in the game. He should have been on Henderson IMO. He's a much better match up for Lance.

CJ Jones
11-03-2012, 07:36 AM
Doesn't make any immediate reactions any more valid. That's my point.

No, he hasn't arrived yet, but it's a good start. He's now shown he has the goods, though.

Noodle
11-03-2012, 07:38 AM
Lance looked great all around last night. His defense was excellent, which made me happy. He looked like a veteran last night. It was easily his best game overall as a Pacer. Hopefully he can string some good games together. If so, he might build some confidence and become more of what Bird saw in him from the beginning. It is only one game, but give the man his due. I want more before I jump on the LS1 bandwagon.

BlueNGold
11-03-2012, 07:39 AM
I'm more than fine with that. Lance legitimately played very well, and I'm not a fan of the guy at all. It's just a convenient timing to start a thread like this.

The fact this is the 2nd game of the year and he's shown some improvement is convenient timing as well. I think he's made substantive improvements in his game and I was not a fan of him signing. I ripped the decision by Bird to bring him to Indy after the thuggery that went on the prior decade.

But Lance is acting like a good team mate. He's made important adjustments partially filling gaping holes in his game. He now looks like a legitimate NBA player. Sure, it's early but even I am giving him some props.

Edit: BTW, I expected Lance to show more stats with IMPD than with the Pacers. Let's just say he's not made the off court mistakes that I would have expected...

Heisenberg
11-03-2012, 07:45 AM
The fact this is the 2nd game of the year and he's shown some improvement is convenient timing as well. I think he's made substantive improvements in his game and I was not a fan of him signing. I ripped the decision by Bird to bring him to Indy after the thuggery that went on the prior decade.

But Lance is acting like a good team mate. He's made important adjustments partially filling gaping holes in his game. He now looks like a legitimate NBA player. Sure, it's early but even I am giving him some props.

Edit: BTW, I expected Lance to show more stats with IMPD than with the Pacers. Let's just say he's not made the off court mistakes that I would have expected...
Lance has impressed me starting in his first offseason. Both in off court work and being a good teammate. He's a penultimate towel waver. That probably sounds like a knock but I mean anything but. It's been my silver lining of hope for him all along. I don't dislike Lance. I've disliked his inability to do anything but playground "highlight" moves. He did plenty of those tonight. I hope he keeps it up.

Noodle
11-03-2012, 07:58 AM
Lol lance in the starting line Up? Really? He would fold more under the pressure than green is doing. Give him a chance. It's been two games. You guys turn ur backs on players so easily.

Yes sir, they do. I'm curious to see what everyone thinks after twenty games or so. It is obvious that these two have worlds of potential. Green is a superior athlete and shooter, in comparison. Green also is more consistent defensively. Lance is by far the better ballhandler and facilitator. Stephenson's IQ on the offensive end I'm sure can become a great asset to teammates. What Lance showed last night is that he can be on Green's current level defensively.

It is still one game. I need more before naming him a starter. This is our 10/11th man we are talking about. Still was as impressed as everyone else. Hopefully Lance is starting to get his mind right and finally tap that obvious potential.

BillS
11-03-2012, 08:57 AM
How bout we discuss Lance on a night where he didn't have one of his two best games of his life?

To be fair, we have. A lot. Vociferously.

I am also not someone who sees Lance as anything fantastic, but last night he at least looked like an effective bench player. Let's hope to see that consistently.

Heisenberg
11-03-2012, 09:06 AM
To be fair, we have. A lot. Vociferously.

that's certainly valid

HOOPFANATIC
11-03-2012, 09:12 AM
What I don't get is why Green,who is a just like Lance, (ie Maturity issues, bad passing, playingOut-of-control.) gets more respect. He was in the D-league last year. Lance has practced and played with most of our guys for three seasons now. I understand why Vogel is hesitant to play him at critical times Lance can be very bonehead but I don't see how Gerald has not been just as boneheaded

bellisimo
11-03-2012, 09:16 AM
Lance's body built makes me call him lil LeBron - when he is out running the break he is just so big and agile at the same time - like a mini-lebron - he got the physical gift for sure - he just needs to keep on progressing like this and we could see something special in the near future.

xBulletproof
11-03-2012, 09:17 AM
Lance's shot is clearly light years better, which is the first thing I saw at a preseason game. It was my first thought after sitting down that day, honestly. His decision making is better, even if some of the decisions that worked out last night were low percentage moves. Yet, he's clearly worked his *** off, and it's hard to not respect that.

I'm not sure if his current (2 game) level of play will continue, but I sure hope so with Danny out, we need it.

CJ Jones
11-03-2012, 11:18 AM
Almost forgot... one of my favorite plays from Lance last night came when he was on the bench. During the front end of a 2 shot foul by Haywood, after it quieted down, Lance screamed "SHORT"! Brendan proceeded to clank it off the front rim. Then OJ, sitting 2 chairs down, reached over top of the guy between em to give Lance credit with the high five. Neither one even cracked a smile. :D

Trophy
11-03-2012, 11:36 AM
He looked very comfortable creating and taking his own shots last night. He pretty much put the team on his back offensively at times.

Hopefully he can keep that play going and improve gradually as he can become a very good player for us for a long time.

Wage
11-03-2012, 12:04 PM
The thing I was most impressed with was how vocal he was being. Every play back on defense he was calling out assignments, and pointing guys to their spots. I personally think a huge part of being a great defense is being a vocal defense, so it was a nice change to see. It seemed he was doing the same on the offensive end, but I honestly didn't pay as much attention.

Ace E.Anderson
11-03-2012, 12:37 PM
Anybody think Lance can keep that aggressiveness up?? It was just one gam but he gave us a glimpse of what the coaches prob see in practice daily. Never had that type of player on the pacers (creating his own off the bounce) so it was fun to watch

BlueNGold
11-03-2012, 08:46 PM
Lance is having another good game. I've got the feeling we can get used to this level of play from him.

Anthem
11-03-2012, 09:09 PM
His final line wasn't great... 4-12, 1-4 from 3, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, etc. But his +22 plus-minus is best on the team, and I thought he did a nice job on both defense and offense. A couple of his misses were "Get the ball to Lance with 2 on the clock" shots; 4-10 or 4-9 doesn't sound that bad.

Best of all, I thought he meshed well with the starters, which I really didn't expect.

InYaFace
11-03-2012, 09:23 PM
I counted at least two of those stupid last second passes to him where he had nowhere to go...that were just stupid plays by Hill!
I like Lance so far, too bad he had no chance to play a bigger role at the end, cause every play was called for West or Hill. But he hit his 3 pointer in the first OT!
I hope he keeps this up, he deserves it!

King Tuts Tomb
11-03-2012, 09:42 PM
I really like Lance's ball handling and passing next to Hill and George. All three of them can run the pick and roll or make the entry pass. A lot of options to work with that we didn't exploit enough tonight.

Also loved the look on his face when he hit that three in the first overtime. That was years in the making.

pacers74
11-03-2012, 10:27 PM
He is looking good and should probably start until Danny comes back. I would rahter have Green come off of the bench with the second unit and be the go to guy with them.

xIndyFan
11-03-2012, 10:46 PM
Lance gives the Pacers another good ball handler. Plus his skill set just goes so well with Hill and Paul. And a one man fast break.

ECKrueger
11-04-2012, 12:09 AM
His final line wasn't great... 4-12, 1-4 from 3, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, etc. But his +22 plus-minus is best on the team, and I thought he did a nice job on both defense and offense. A couple of his misses were "Get the ball to Lance with 2 on the clock" shots; 4-10 or 4-9 doesn't sound that bad.

Best of all, I thought he meshed well with the starters, which I really didn't expect.

He blew a couple lay ups that I think he should and usually would make.

Sandman21
11-04-2012, 01:33 AM
Lance needs to be playing over Sam Young at least until Sam gets the idea that he's playing for the Pacers and not the other team....

TheDavisBrothers
11-04-2012, 02:36 AM
Lance needs to be playing over Sam Young at least Sam gets the idea that he's playing for the Pacers and not the other team....

I think you mean...
Lance needs to be playing over Sam Young at least Lance gets the idea that he's playing for the Pacers and not the other team....

Sandman21
11-04-2012, 02:41 AM
Something like that.

Strummer
11-04-2012, 03:17 AM
Mark Montieth article about Lance after tonights game.
link (http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/stephenson-stepping-showing-improvement)

Heisenberg
11-04-2012, 04:23 AM
Lance, I'm giving you some lengthy rope. Don't hang yourself with it.

wintermute
11-04-2012, 04:26 AM
Small sample size and all, but I'm also in favor of starting Lance alongside the 2 Georges. He does fit the starters better, and I guess we'll just have to live with his learning curve.

And wow, its looking like we'll finally have a project player amounting to something. Jamison Brewer, Orien Greene, Rawle Marshall, Stephen Graham and probably tons more that I can't remember. We can finally exorcise those ghosts :)

DaveP63
11-04-2012, 04:45 AM
So far, I have been pleasantly surprised.

dohman
11-04-2012, 07:31 AM
Lance is very scary in the open court. The way he can explode after a rebound is quite entertaining to watch. Look at the size of the steps he takes, he is like a bull rushing the goal. I would like to see him running the break quite a bit more with his passing and finishing ability.

I think he would of won the game last night if vogel would not have called that timeout. He had three seconds I think and was already at half court.

Anthem
11-04-2012, 07:56 AM
I think he would of won the game last night if vogel would not have called that timeout. He had three seconds I think and was already at half court.
I thought the same.

cgg
11-04-2012, 09:18 AM
It would have been a better chance than David West for 3.

CJ Jones
11-04-2012, 10:02 AM
Lance's energy changed the game last night in the 2nd. Even though he missed a couple layups, the pressure he put on the D allowed our guys easy offensive rebounds. He wasn't perfect, but I don't think anybody played harder than Lance night. He earned those xtra minutes.

xIndyFan
11-04-2012, 10:10 AM
Small sample size and all, but I'm also in favor of starting Lance alongside the 2 Georges. He does fit the starters better, and I guess we'll just have to live with his learning curve.

And wow, its looking like we'll finally have a project player amounting to something. Jamison Brewer, Orien Greene, Rawle Marshall, Stephen Graham and probably tons more that I can't remember. We can finally exorcise those ghosts :)

my personal favorite, Kenny Williams. I thought that dude would be great. Shows what I know. :laugh:

xIndyFan
11-04-2012, 10:13 AM
. . . I think he would of won the game last night if vogel would not have called that timeout. He had three seconds I think and was already at half court.


I thought the same.

I'm guessing here, but Frank will agree. I understand why he called the timeout, but it is too bad because Lance was guided missile when it was called.

IndySDExport
11-04-2012, 02:59 PM
I admit, I was one of the ones who was really against Lance a couple years ago. Although it's still early, I am really impressed by his improved confidence, game and maturity so far.

Here's one thing I'd like thoughts on.

I like Lance coming off the bench since it seems to me that Lance and Hans have a nice 2 man game going. I think Lance has been one of the factors leading to Tyler's improved play. As Peck said in his Odd Thoughts: "Why is it that Tyler is the one player this season who has not disappointed me? I think itís because I had such low expectations of him that if he comes into the game and doesnít proceed to throw his own defecation at his team mates I am happy with him."

I think it's Lance. Watching the last 2 games, while Lance is not shooting great he's getting to the rim and drawing defenders leaving Hans open to get the offensive board and score. It's also letting Tyler play closer to the basket and get the pass in the low post. I've only seen Tyler shoot a couple outside jumpers so far all year (thank goodness).

Anyone else feel that Lance and Tyler complement each other?

McKeyFan
11-04-2012, 04:29 PM
I think Lance compliments whoever he's on the court with. He's our best passer. He feeds the post really well.

xIndyFan
11-04-2012, 04:38 PM
. . . Anyone else feel that Lance and Tyler complement each other?


I think Lance compliments whoever he's on the court with. He's our best passer. He feeds the post really well.

Tyler has soft hands. Makes it easier to catch an imperfect pass and does a nice job of tipping the ball in near the rim. He does work well with Lance.

So do Paul and Hill. so maybe McKey Fan is right. Boy do I hope Lance continues to play well. He really does complement the other starters with his ball handling.

Derek2k3
11-04-2012, 05:03 PM
I'm sorry, but a timeout with less than 5 seconds left as a team is sprinting up court doesn't make sense, at least not with this team.

What's better: Lance/George/Paul running a semi-fastbreak, or trying to inbounds/get a shot from half-court with 3 seconds left? Lance had momentum and could have gotten to the basket, at least giving the team a chance. I don't think a person in the fieldhouse last night thought they were gonna score out of that TO.

Lance has been under-control so much, it's been a really impressive start to the season for a guy that hasn't shown anything in his young career. I'm really happy for him, I hope he can become a sort of "X" factor, a guy that brings energy and effort off the bench to the backcourt. He's the sparkplug for the guards, Tyler for the bigs. I like it.

xIndyFan
11-04-2012, 05:30 PM
I'm sorry, but a timeout with less than 5 seconds left as a team is sprinting up court doesn't make sense, at least not with this team. . .

I believe the timeout was called as soon as the Pacers got control of the ball. Not as the team was sprinting up the court. Calling the quick timeout allows the Pacers to advance the ball to the frontcourt. 3.6 seconds is normally plenty of time to get off a decent shot for any NBA team. Calling the quick timeout with less than 5 seconds is the right thing to do. It just didn't work out. :shrug:

Cousy47
11-04-2012, 06:36 PM
Add me to the list that agree with you. I also think DJA has the same knack with Tyler. I really like the idean of DJ and Lance in the back court together. I think Lance can defend either guard position of most team's 2nd unit.

Sparhawk
11-04-2012, 08:06 PM
Now it's time 2K recognized Lance's improvements. Being rated a 59 is embarrassing! C'mon, he's more like a 69 like they have OJ (who hasn't even played a game).

pacer4ever
11-04-2012, 08:21 PM
Now it's time 2K recognized Lance's improvements. Being rated a 59 is embarrassing! C'mon, he's more like a 69 like they have OJ (who hasn't even played a game).

for my team his cost is now 1,200k up from 500 I debated selling him but I'll hang on to him and hope he gets even better

My Team is no fun now every game the opponents have 6 or 7 all stars wish their was a salary cap of like 350 VC even that is high. 3 stars and a silver is more than a super team. If I was in charge it would be 250. Maybe next year their could be a system where you can choose between having 2 golds and then all bronze or have 5 silvers or something like that. The way it is now isnt much fun.

RLeWorm
11-04-2012, 09:12 PM
Vogel needs to give Lance the green light! Lance is very good in the open court naturally. Lance is building confidence with these past two games.

Derek2k3
11-04-2012, 10:14 PM
I believe the timeout was called as soon as the Pacers got control of the ball. Not as the team was sprinting up the court. Calling the quick timeout allows the Pacers to advance the ball to the frontcourt. 3.6 seconds is normally plenty of time to get off a decent shot for any NBA team. Calling the quick timeout with less than 5 seconds is the right thing to do. It just didn't work out. :shrug:

No, they actually advanced the ball up-court, at least that's what I thought. Got the rebound, ran it up court, got the timeout.

I wish there were some statistics, but it sure seems it would make more sense to let guys make a play, rather than stopping momentum and trying to get a jumper out of a timeout. Plus, with only 3.6 seconds left, the best shot you're gonna get is *likely* a jumper. I'd prefer Lance rolling up-court getting to the rim then a jumper off an an OOB play.

Regardless, I suppose it's more common to call the timeout, I'm more or less considering the viability of alternatives.

McKeyFan
11-05-2012, 06:57 AM
I would like to have seen what Lance might have done in those last few seconds, especially in hindsight.

But I don't fault Vogel for the timeout, especially if he called it just as we got the rebound. Pretty standard stuff.

bphil
11-05-2012, 09:40 AM
I was at the opener and got to see Lance up close and personal. There are a couple of things I think he still need to work on...

1) Don't get fancy around the rim. There were a couple of times where he was trying too hard to get the ball around someone and he ended up with an awkward (missed) layup. He needs to understand that with his body he should be going right into guys who are challenging him at the rim looking to initiate contact first. He can then use his body to protect the ball and get off an easier shot.

Mark Jackson was the master at this. Watch how in this video he first gets his shoulder into Bol and then ends up with an easy bucket and the foul...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1N_DuxiXOw

...I would love to see Lance do that.

2) When he came in with the second unit he was incredibly aggressive, but he became tentative again when he was with the starters. Instead of relentlessly attacking the defense he was often just looking to rotate the ball off of pick and rolls. Attack attack attack!

3) He still has no clue where to be on defense half the time. His on the ball D looked much better than I had seen in the past, but when he was off the ball or forced to rotate to someone else's man he often looked lost and got burned a few times. Thornton looked like an all-star when they were matched up against each other.

All in all I really enjoyed watching him and was encouraged by what I saw... it's just going to take Lance awhile to figure things out because he's still young and, as we saw with the "I had to take her down like Chris Brown" incident, not always using his head...

Sparhawk
11-05-2012, 10:20 AM
This quote from Lance really shows how much he's grown.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20121104/SPORTS04/211040361


"I'm happy I'm getting more minutes, but I'm hoping for Danny to get well soon," Stephenson said.

Since86
11-05-2012, 10:35 AM
No, they actually advanced the ball up-court, at least that's what I thought. Got the rebound, ran it up court, got the timeout.

I wish there were some statistics, but it sure seems it would make more sense to let guys make a play, rather than stopping momentum and trying to get a jumper out of a timeout. Plus, with only 3.6 seconds left, the best shot you're gonna get is *likely* a jumper. I'd prefer Lance rolling up-court getting to the rim then a jumper off an an OOB play.

Regardless, I suppose it's more common to call the timeout, I'm more or less considering the viability of alternatives.

I'm pretty sure they gave them the timeout directly off of the rebound. If they had advanced the ball with a dribble, then they wouldn't have moved the ball into the frontcourt for the inbounds.

It was a bang-bang play, but I do wish Frank would have allowed them to run the fast break and see what happens. The worst possible outcome would have been better than West hoisting up a 3.

aamcguy
11-05-2012, 10:47 AM
I was at the opener and got to see Lance up close and personal. There are a couple of things I think he still need to work on...

1) Don't get fancy around the rim. There were a couple of times where he was trying too hard to get the ball around someone and he ended up with an awkward (missed) layup. He needs to understand that with his body he should be going right into guys who are challenging him at the rim looking to initiate contact first. He can then use his body to protect the ball and get off an easier shot.

Mark Jackson was the master at this. Watch how in this video he first gets his shoulder into Bol and then ends up with an easy bucket and the foul...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1N_DuxiXOw

...I would love to see Lance do that.

2) When he came in with the second unit he was incredibly aggressive, but he became tentative again when he was with the starters. Instead of relentlessly attacking the defense he was often just looking to rotate the ball off of pick and rolls. Attack attack attack!

3) He still has no clue where to be on defense half the time. His on the ball D looked much better than I had seen in the past, but when he was off the ball or forced to rotate to someone else's man he often looked lost and got burned a few times. Thornton looked like an all-star when they were matched up against each other.

All in all I really enjoyed watching him and was encouraged by what I saw... it's just going to take Lance awhile to figure things out because he's still young and, as we saw with the "I had to take her down like Chris Brown" incident, not always using his head...


With the exception of Paul George, I thought Lance was our best defender out there against the Kings. I also thought that was why Vogel chose Lance over Green. He also happens to be the best player on our team at denying the ball while chasing around a guard.

I'm not sure why you think it's weird Thornton "looked like an all-star" against Lance. He's one of the best scorers in the league. He's scored 20 ppg since being with the Kings and he scored 26 last night, which is not really that far of a stretch. Especially considering he had 20 points except for his 2 last 3 pointers. The first one was actually when PG was guarding him and relaxed off of him because he thought there was either a shot or a turnover coming. The second one he made (in OT) he made with Lance right in his face. So he scored 2 shots more than his average, with the difference not being a lapse in Lance's ability.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
11-05-2012, 11:03 AM
Yeah, Lance is finally doing something. Good, the team needs it.

Amazing what some players can accomplish when they want another contract.

Derek2k3
11-05-2012, 11:25 AM
I'm pretty sure they gave them the timeout directly off of the rebound. If they had advanced the ball with a dribble, then they wouldn't have moved the ball into the frontcourt for the inbounds.

It was a bang-bang play, but I do wish Frank would have allowed them to run the fast break and see what happens. The worst possible outcome would have been better than West hoisting up a 3.

I just re-watched it, you're right.

However, it was David that called the TO, not Frank. From the replay, it sure looks like Frank was gonna let it go, and David ran up and got the TO.

Ace E.Anderson
11-05-2012, 04:20 PM
I think Lance compliments whoever he's on the court with. He's our best passer. He feeds the post really well.

I think Lance is our best passer and ball handler. With his improved jumpshot (and confidence) he is a good complementary 2-Guard to start next to George Hill.

I really hope Frank tries to catch lighting in a bottle with Lance. We forget that Lance is only 22 years old (4 years younger than our rookie C) and brings a unique skill-set/attacking mind set that we don't currently have on this team.

Yes I know these are the only three games where he's played so well in a meaningful NBA game, but confidence has a way of changing a player. If he continues to get minutes, and chances, he could be a key contributor to this team this year, as well as years down the line. But with DG out and it being early on in the season, why not push the envelope a bit and see what it is we have in Lance. Even if it is just a 6th/7th man off the bench type of player.

Derek2k3
11-05-2012, 04:36 PM
I think Lance is our best passer and ball handler. With his improved jumpshot (and confidence) he is a good complementary 2-Guard to start next to George Hill.

I really hope Frank tries to catch lighting in a bottle with Lance. We forget that Lance is only 22 years old (4 years younger than our rookie C) and brings a unique skill-set/attacking mind set that we don't currently have on this team.

Yes I know these are the only three games where he's played so well in a meaningful NBA game, but confidence has a way of changing a player. If he continues to get minutes, and chances, he could be a key contributor to this team this year, as well as years down the line. But with DG out and it being early on in the season, why not push the envelope a bit and see what it is we have in Lance. Even if it is just a 6th/7th man off the bench type of player.

Damn you.

pacergod2
11-05-2012, 05:27 PM
I think Lance would work better with our starting unit over the course of whatever time we are without Granger. I think he would be able to fix some of the things he makes errors on while working with the veterans during game play. Those errors would also be masked more by playing alongside four better players, IMO. I think he would really take on a lot of their teachings by actually playing through them. Whoever starts though MUST defend the position well. That is our number one need from our fifth starter at this point. We need someone who can score in more limited touches as a secondary option and I don't think anyone fits that bill better than Stephenson (assuming solid D).

As for the second unit, I would be getting PG and GG a lot of minutes with Augustin and would be back cutting the **** out of teams in the half court. Pressing hard for transition opportunities with those three. I like Ian and Hansborough with that unit to really push the tempo more than they have at this point in the season. I think we need to see more transition offense leading to more easy opportunities AND DUNKS! Dunks are momentum changers and that second unit should give us plenty. I would aim for that second unit to be what drives our rotations early in the season.

CJ Jones
11-05-2012, 07:01 PM
I like him with either unit but especially with the starters. Lance being able to handle the ball confidently takes pressure off Hill so he doesn't always have to initiate the offense, allowing him to be more of a scorer. It's also nice having him in there with D. West because he'll quickly call Lance out if Lance starts going rogue.

clownskull
11-05-2012, 07:46 PM
i have liked almost everything i have seen from him this season so far. i like the all around effort and it really seems to look like he has figured things out instead of always looking lost.
he definitely has the skills and ability to be a good player in this league if he continues to make improvements.
nice to see a project player actually show signs of panning out instead of just falling apart for a change.

imawhat
11-06-2012, 12:56 AM
Short leash tonight.

Heisenberg
11-06-2012, 01:57 AM
Tyler too. And Tippecanoe.

CJ Jones
11-06-2012, 11:45 AM
Short leash tonight.

Yeah, that wasn't cool. The guy plays 3 solid games straight, even finishing games with the starters, then he's rewarded with a few meaningful minutes the next game. That's a good way to kill a young players confidence. Thanks coach.

tfarks
11-06-2012, 11:49 AM
I was really baffled by that last night.

Goyle
11-06-2012, 11:54 AM
Yeah, that wasn't cool. The guy plays 3 solid games straight, even finishing games with the starters, then he's rewarded with a few meaningful minutes the next game. That's a good way to kill a young players confidence. Thanks coach.

That was awful. I really hope he got hurt or something because pulling Lance for the whole game after a rough start makes 0 sense. He's a third year player, let him play.

BillS
11-06-2012, 12:13 PM
Yeah, that wasn't cool. The guy plays 3 solid games straight, even finishing games with the starters, then he's rewarded with a few meaningful minutes the next game. That's a good way to kill a young players confidence. Thanks coach.

OR it could be holding him out of a game that was spiraling down the toilet and therefore NOT having him crumble and lose confidence.

Sparhawk
11-06-2012, 02:02 PM
Yeah, that wasn't cool. The guy plays 3 solid games straight, even finishing games with the starters, then he's rewarded with a few meaningful minutes the next game. That's a good way to kill a young players confidence. Thanks coach.

I know right. Plus, how did that turn out for Vogel by not playing Lance. Ooops, still lost by a wide margin. Should have let him play.

McKeyFan
11-06-2012, 03:00 PM
I'm left to conclude Lance must have done something to pi$$ off the coaches. Weird that they never let him back in the game while there was a still a slight chance.

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 03:01 PM
I'm left to conclude Lance must have done something to pi$$ off the coaches. Weird that they never let him back in the game while there was a still a slight chance.

He made two back to back mistakes, he went to the bench because of it.

McKeyFan
11-06-2012, 03:26 PM
He made two back to back mistakes, he went to the bench because of it.

You okay with that, or think the leash should be longer?

vnzla81
11-06-2012, 03:49 PM
You okay with that, or think the leash should be longer?

I'm fine with that, I wish he did that to everybody else though.

Ace E.Anderson
11-06-2012, 04:02 PM
I'm fine with that, I wish he did that to everybody else though.

Roy and Paul seem to have the longest leashes on the team. I actually think that they should have a shorter leash in order to snap their concentration back into place.

CJ Jones
11-06-2012, 06:48 PM
OR it could be holding him out of a game that was spiraling down the toilet and therefore NOT having him crumble and lose confidence.

I hadn't thought of that. I guess that's a possibility, but I doubt Lance would see it that way if that was the case.


I'm left to conclude Lance must have done something to pi$$ off the coaches. Weird that they never let him back in the game while there was a still a slight chance.

This sounds like the most likely scenario. I hope it's wrong, though.


He made two back to back mistakes, he went to the bench because of it.

I don't mind him getting pulled for mistakes, but that doesn't explain why he didn't play in the second half. If he can't get consistent minutes when he's played well and when Danny's out the lineup then he doesn't have a chance on this team.

Pacergeek
11-06-2012, 06:57 PM
Lance is clearly better than Green. I could care less how many points Green scored on a losing team for half a season. Much more to basketball than scoring points. Born Ready is a beast, and Vogel must unleash

Heisenberg
11-07-2012, 03:38 AM
Tyler too. And Tippecanoe.

C'mon. where's indygeezer when I need him?

bellisimo
11-07-2012, 07:46 AM
He made two back to back mistakes, he went to the bench because of it.

and what was the reason why he came on to play so late? He was like the last sub to get on at the begining of the second QT.

Cousy47
11-07-2012, 08:11 AM
Wouldn't this be a really good time to fire test Lance and Hans? They are in their last year of their rookie contracts. They have shown flashes of being a good fit for this teams way of playing. We have a lot of new faces that we are going to have for 4 years or more, shouldn't we find out sooner rather than later if these 2 are part of our future? I would like to see Frank give these 2 players some steady, meaningful minutes the first 10-20 games and then, if they don't have a future here, bring Plums and OJ/Young to the forefront and start the process of trading, cutting or showing the wardrobe of Lance and Tyler. There comes a time to "fish or cut bait" as it were.

DrFife
11-07-2012, 08:14 AM
C'mon. where's indygeezer when I need him?

I'm no geezer (yet), but I did appreciate the witticism. :buddies:

McKeyFan
11-07-2012, 03:31 PM
I'm no geezer (yet), but I did appreciate the witticism. :buddies:
I got it, too. I thank Heisenberg's good posts. That one belongs with IndyCORNrows.

CJ Jones
11-10-2012, 01:43 PM
So, according to Frank, Lance is our best wing option after Paul. My question is, if he believes that why is Lance the last player to get off the bench? Subbing in Green after he had continually fell asleep defensively earlier in the game was monumentally stupid. If he was worried about Lance running out of gas he should adjust his rotation so that he can give Lance a breather in the 4th. Get it together Frank. You can't draw up a play that the guys can execute to save your life. The least you can do is put our best players on the court.

McKeyFan
11-10-2012, 01:45 PM
So, according to Frank, Lance is our best wing option after Paul. My question is, if he believes that why is Lance the last player to get off the bench? Subbing in Green after he had continually fell asleep defensively earlier in the game was monumentally stupid. If he was worried about Lance running out of gas he should adjust his rotation so that he can give Lance a breather in the 4th. Get it together Frank. You can't draw up a play that the guys can execute to save your life. The least you can do is put our best players on the court.

Something doesn't add up. Let's hope we see something more sane tonight.

Sparhawk
11-10-2012, 02:19 PM
Lance should be starting, whether at the 1 or 2. Him and GHill should be interchangeable on the court together.

I just when Vogel is going to put the best players on the court to start and finish the game.

CableKC
11-10-2012, 03:39 PM
Something doesn't add up. Let's hope we see something more sane tonight.
All Frank has to say is that he EFF'd up, he didn't think about putting in Young and that he made a mistake. :rolleyes:

CableKC
11-10-2012, 03:41 PM
Lance should be starting, whether at the 1 or 2. Him and GHill should be interchangeable on the court together.

I just when Vogel is going to put the best players on the court to start and finish the game.
At this point....I'm willing to let Lance and Miles make mistakes....cuz honestly...anyone outside of GH, West and ( usually ) PG.....everyone else is doing poorly. Letting Lance and Miles make mistakes is no less damaging than letting anyone outside of the Starting 3 make mistakes.

Sparhawk
11-10-2012, 06:02 PM
At this point....I'm willing to let Lance and Miles make mistakes....cuz honestly...anyone outside of GH, West and ( usually ) PG.....everyone else is doing poorly. Letting Lance and Miles make mistakes is no less damaging than letting anyone outside of the Starting 3 make mistakes.

I'd like to see more Plumlee too.

cdash
11-10-2012, 06:22 PM
We get our wish. Lance starting tonight.

wintermute
11-10-2012, 06:27 PM
We get our wish. Lance starting tonight.

Interesting. Can't be worse than Green or Young starting anyway.

My worry with Lance is the same thing we've been seeing with Green and Mahinmi - former low minute players thrust into major roles, and wilting under the responsibility. Hope Lance can handle the pressure better.

Sparhawk
11-10-2012, 09:10 PM
Lance haters please step forward and admit Lance is playing well. :)

Looked good in his first start.

xIndyFan
11-10-2012, 10:23 PM
Lance haters please step forward and admit Lance is playing well. :)

Looked good in his first start.

yeah, he did. gotta say i really like the george hill and Lance backcourt. They have nice synergy. Which is probably why Larry got them both in the first place. Letting Lance run the offense gives Hill some easy shots and some time to stand in the corner and catch a breather.

clownskull
11-10-2012, 10:28 PM
i think lance has finally turned a corner. i had given up hope that he was ever going to turn into a real player in this league. happy to see that i was wrong and he is doing it for us and not TO us.

Sookie
11-10-2012, 10:30 PM
Lance haters please step forward and admit Lance is playing well. :)

Looked good in his first start.

He did look good. He looked under control and had a better understanding of when to attack versus when to make the simple play.

MvPlumlee
11-10-2012, 10:34 PM
Lance haters please step forward and admit Lance is playing well. :)

Looked good in his first start.

I admit he is playing much better than I thought he could play, much more in control. Keep it up, Lance :)

We could really use a two guard like him, who can penetrate and handle the ball.

Derek2k3
11-10-2012, 10:34 PM
He did look good. He looked under control and had a better understanding of when to attack versus when to make the simple play.

+1

He absolutely played better than either Green/Young in the same role. Well done, Lance. He's come a long, long way since 2 years ago.

Goyle
11-10-2012, 11:26 PM
More than anything, I love Lance's passion. He HATES getting beat on defense.

Anthem
11-10-2012, 11:30 PM
Lance haters please step forward and admit Lance is playing well. :)

Looked good in his first start.
Anybody remember what the preseason thread was where people were saying he should get cut?

Sparhawk
11-10-2012, 11:53 PM
The thing is, Lance will have bad games, but he's been pretty consistent so far which has surprised even me. I think he'll have more good games than bad. The guy really wants to learn and grow, and it's now starting to show.

Kid Minneapolis
11-11-2012, 12:05 AM
Lance still has some holes in his game, but it's been very cool to see him progress over the years to the point where he is now a pretty serviceable NBA player. He's leapyears ahead of when he was a rook. Even defensively.

Anthem
11-11-2012, 12:00 PM
Lance still has some holes in his game, but it's been very cool to see him progress over the years to the point where he is now a pretty serviceable NBA player. He's leapyears ahead of when he was a rook. Even defensively.
Especially defensively.

He's a become a decent defender, and nothing makes me think he's close to maxing out his defensive skills. More reps will help him a lot. If he keeps working on defense over the next year the way he did over the past year, he could be a good team defender by next season.

Derek2k3
11-11-2012, 12:36 PM
More than anything, I love Lance's passion. He HATES getting beat on defense.

This is such a great point.

You see a guy like Gerald or Roy getting beat on defense and they seem a little frustrated. Lance gets beat, and he LOCKS IN. He's got that Danny swagger, won't back down/wants a shot at their top guy.

Like others have said, he'll make some mistakes. However, it's clear he's fully invested in this team, and has provided a spark that we haven't gotten from anyone else. He needs to continue to focus on playing under control, but the risk/reward has definitely been more reward this season.

vnzla81
11-11-2012, 12:53 PM
Anybody remember what the preseason thread was where people were saying he should get cut?

Yep some people have wanted to cut the guy for a while now, I wonder where they are?

Derek2k3
11-11-2012, 01:02 PM
Yep some people have wanted to cut the guy for a while now, I wonder where they are?

Crying into their Gerald Green jerseys.

Anthem
11-11-2012, 01:06 PM
Yep some people have wanted to cut the guy for a while now, I wonder where they are?
WhoLovesYaBaby:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?76243-Pacers-It-wasn%92t-all-about-Granger-and-Augustin-Stephenson-was-in-the-mix-too/page2

MvPlumlee:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?76168-Pacers-cut-3-players/page2

Various and Sundry:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?76087-Pacers-Lance-Stephenson-knows-this-could-be-his-last-shot/page2

owl
11-11-2012, 01:25 PM
Lance haters please step forward and admit Lance is playing well. :)

Looked good in his first start.


I am glad they finally started playing him some real minutes because he needs reps for us to find out what we have. I am glad to see
Him have a good couple games. If he keeps progressing having him paired with Hill is a good combo, plus they move Paul to small forward where he should be with this group starters. It actually looked like they were running some offense last night.
They looked awful against the Spurs.

vnzla81
11-11-2012, 01:27 PM
WhoLovesYaBaby:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?76243-Pacers-It-wasn%92t-all-about-Granger-and-Augustin-Stephenson-was-in-the-mix-too/page2

MvPlumlee:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?76168-Pacers-cut-3-players/page2

Various and Sundry:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?76087-Pacers-Lance-Stephenson-knows-this-could-be-his-last-shot/page2

Don't forget Seth, Mackey and BWD.

BlueNGold
11-11-2012, 01:33 PM
I didn't want him on the Pacers due to the massive baggage, but gradually he has earned my trust. That did not happen in the last 6 games but over the course of his NBA career. He seems to want to get better and he's done that. At this point, he does belong in the starting unit until Granger returns.

BlueNGold
11-11-2012, 01:38 PM
Lance still has some holes in his game, but it's been very cool to see him progress over the years to the point where he is now a pretty serviceable NBA player. He's leapyears ahead of when he was a rook. Even defensively.

He's probably made more strides than any other player. He's fixed problems about his game that I did not think he could fix. Bravo for the young man. I hope he keeps his nose clean and matures into a good NBA player...

Sparhawk
11-11-2012, 02:12 PM
The thing I really like and why I think Hill and Lance work well together is that they are both combo guards. Either one is interchangeable at the point and sg spot.

Hopefully this starting lineup is the final one. That way we can get some continuity and continue to get more comfortable with each other.. I also like that Vogel is ensuring a starter on the floor at all times, which is how it should be.

spazzxb
11-11-2012, 02:18 PM
Crying into their Gerald Green jerseys.

No, they had a non basketball issue with him for years. Nothing to do with Green. AJ Price fans bashed him pretty hard though.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

vnzla81
11-11-2012, 02:26 PM
I almost forgot Mike Wells, he hated on Lance early on but it looks like he starting to like him now, I'm always busting his b**** on twitter. :laugh:

Derek2k3
11-11-2012, 02:42 PM
I almost forgot Mike Wells, he hated on Lance early on but it looks like he starting to like him now, I'm always busting his b**** on twitter. :laugh:

Hasn't Mike had a problem with basically every Pacer at some point? He sure seems to be a malcontent.

McKeyFan
11-11-2012, 02:46 PM
Lance's personal issues are real.

Not as "real" as they used to be, thankfully, but he is still on a short leash in terms of people watching his personal life. And that's only fair.

At the same time, we also need to be fair about how excellent are his basketball skills. There is no one on this team that compares in terms of ballhandling, offensive moves, midrange, creativity, and elite court vision. He is a man child physically. Now he is showing himself to be our best outside threat.

I'm not saying let's fall in love with talent. I'm saying let's give this wild talent a real chance, especially since the past three years have been pretty much incident free except for the very terrible start.

I think Lance has Dwayne Wade type upside. He is as close as we may come to getting a true star in Indianapolis.

HC
11-11-2012, 02:47 PM
I love me some Born Ready.

Sookie
11-11-2012, 02:48 PM
Hasn't Mike had a problem with basically every Pacer at some point? He sure seems to be a malcontent.

He goes with the trends.

Sookie
11-11-2012, 02:50 PM
The thing I really like and why I think Hill and Lance work well together is that they are both combo guards. Either one is interchangeable at the point and sg spot.
e.

I don't like that. (I like having an actual point guard.) But it's certainly better than having just Hill (a combo guard) and then no one else really capable of creating plays/handling the ball.

imawhat
11-11-2012, 02:55 PM
I almost forgot Mike Wells, he hated on Lance early on but it looks like he starting to like him now, I'm always busting his b**** on twitter. :laugh:

He started liking Lance when Lance finally decided to talk to the media after his first season (after not talking with them as a rookie)...surprise surprise.

It sounds like Mike had a reason to criticize him though. Apparently he wasn't communicative with his teammates either as a rookie and struggled to listen to criticism.

McKeyFan
11-11-2012, 02:58 PM
It sounds like Mike had a reason to criticize him though. Apparently he wasn't communicative with his teammates either as a rookie and struggled to listen to criticism.
Maybe. I found the reports to be rather cryptic. Bird basically said he didn't have a problem with Lance and instead thought the other players had the problem. The best I could gather from it is that Lance trashed talked a lot (kinda like Bird), gave certain leaders who were struggling (like Danny) a hard time, and maybe was just too competitive for a bunch of players used to mediocrity.

Or maybe not.

Sparhawk
11-11-2012, 03:04 PM
I don't like that. (I like having an actual point guard.) But it's certainly better than having just Hill (a combo guard) and then no one else really capable of creating plays/handling the ball.

While I do too, we have already seen that just pgs don't do well in our system. Perhaps it benefits combo guards.

CableKC
11-11-2012, 04:38 PM
Interesting. Can't be worse than Green or Young starting anyway.

My worry with Lance is the same thing we've been seeing with Green and Mahinmi - former low minute players thrust into major roles, and wilting under the responsibility. Hope Lance can handle the pressure better.
Unlike green and mahinmi.....this is Lance's last season with us to prove whether he can handle the heat or not. We have to find that out now...rather than "never". At some point....he has to "sink or swim". Lance has 6 to 7 months to show us whether he is worth it or not.

rexnom
11-11-2012, 04:39 PM
Very impressed with Lance's work ethic. And he seems to want to be better on defense. Never thought that would happen.

pacers74
11-11-2012, 04:48 PM
I love it when Lance gets a defensive rebound and bull rushes his way on a fast break. I would hate to be the guy who has to step in his way to try and stop him.

BlueNGold
11-11-2012, 05:01 PM
Lance's personal issues are real.

Not as "real" as they used to be, thankfully, but he is still on a short leash in terms of people watching his personal life. And that's only fair.

At the same time, we also need to be fair about how excellent are his basketball skills. There is no one on this team that compares in terms of ballhandling, offensive moves, midrange, creativity, and elite court vision. He is a man child physically. Now he is showing himself to be our best outside threat.

I'm not saying let's fall in love with talent. I'm saying let's give this wild talent a real chance, especially since the past three years have been pretty much incident free except for the very terrible start.

I think Lance has Dwayne Wade type upside. He is as close as we may come to getting a true star in Indianapolis.

DWade huh? Heh.

I just opened this thread and expected someone to say Lance will soon be an all-star. I like his game alright now, but DWade? I'm not there yet. I think he might be starting guard material though.

sportfireman
11-11-2012, 05:03 PM
I love it when Lance gets a defensive rebound and bull rushes his way on a fast break. I would hate to be the guy who has to step in his way to try and stop him.

It's reminiscent to Lebron..... not as good but I see similarities.

righteouscool
11-11-2012, 06:03 PM
I haven't been able to watch the last few games, but I'm watching the Wizards game now and I can't help but be impressed with Lance. He is one of the only players I see that makes the correct pass consistently. He has definitely been the most impressive Pacer this year to me.

I think in a few years he will be KILLER on the break.

rexnom
11-11-2012, 06:10 PM
I think Lance has amazing first guard off the bench potential. Let's not get carried away with other stuff though. Although, my god, he's only 22.

righteouscool
11-11-2012, 06:14 PM
I think Lance has amazing first guard off the bench potential. Let's not get carried away with other stuff though. Although, my god, he's only 22.

Yeah, I see him as being a bit of a Jason Terry type, where he can come off the bench, handle the ball, and score in a hurry. Those are incredibly important, though, so no shame in that kind of ceiling.

rexnom
11-11-2012, 06:34 PM
Yeah, I see him as being a bit of a Jason Terry type, where he can come off the bench, handle the ball, and score in a hurry. Those are incredibly important, though, so no shame in that kind of ceiling.
Not at all! Lance could also be in late in games as he possess critical ball handling and passing skills that the rest of the team is below average at.

Sandman21
11-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Right now, Lance has to be in the running for Most Improved Player.

Anthem
11-11-2012, 09:06 PM
Don't forget Seth, Mackey and BWD.
Haven't forgotten them (or UncleBuck), just couldn't find those quotes.

D-BONE
11-11-2012, 09:22 PM
Sure is nice to have somebody who knows how to make a post entry pass.

Ace E.Anderson
11-11-2012, 11:07 PM
Yeah, I see him as being a bit of a Jason Terry type, where he can come off the bench, handle the ball, and score in a hurry. Those are incredibly important, though, so no shame in that kind of ceiling.

Guys like the Jet are normally not starters because of their defensive limitations, or because they don't being much else to the table aside from scoring. I think lance could excel in that role, but if he continues to improve, he could easily be a starting guard in this league. Take into consideration, at 22; he's about the age of most rookie players. When you combine that with the fact that he has that bulldog mentality that we all WISH Paul George had, if Vogel continues to keep him in the starting lineup and build on his confidence, the sky is the limit for lance.

I wouldn't go as far as saying he's a D-Wade type of talent, I surely think he could be a Rodney Stuckey/Tyreke Evans type of player--if he continues to improve.

Strummer
11-11-2012, 11:43 PM
There's a new Curt Cavin article about Lance.
http://www.indystar.com/article/20121111/SPORTS04/211110356/Pacers-guard-Lance-Stephenson-starts-quickly-given-shot

By the way, I wish the Star would put the authors name by the links to the stories. I almost didn't click on this one because I assumed it would be a Mike Wells article.

docpaul
11-11-2012, 11:56 PM
Redemption stories are always my favorite kinds of stories. Especially when it will likely affect the team positively.

If you're looking for blessings in disguise from the Granger injury, this would be one of them. Lance wouldn't have gotten this level of look most likely, and given his previously short leash, these past few games might have opened the door for him to contribute to this team over the long run. Otherwise, he might have blossomed for another team, after we made the coaching/time investment in him.

He's putting it together. Not sure of many player matchups that'd physically pose a problem for him. If he gets it together, he could become a beast.

Always have liked his game, but couldn't tell if he was going to get it together while on the roster.

In Larry we trust.

15th parallel
11-12-2012, 12:19 AM
I think it's time the team looks at Lance to be the main facilitator on offense by making him control the ball more and make Hill be more of a scorer than a playmaker while DG is out. I think if they set more plays for Lance to dribble drive or make an iso it will create a lot of opportunities as he has above average court vision and passing, and at the same time he can really finish. With also his physical built and skills, I think Lance with either Hill, PG, Hans or Green it will be very beneficial if they will try to play more up-tempo and get more points from fast break.

wintermute
11-12-2012, 03:41 AM
Lance is making me a believer this season. Btw, while we're naming and shaming, why not give props to 90s and McKeyFan who have been beating the Lance drum for a while. I'm sure there's others as well.

Anyone think we can get our own version of Linsanity? Pacers still have an offensive void and Lance looks to be in good position to fill it. Would it surprise anyone at this point if Lance runs off a string of 20 point games this season? I think the new Lance is capable of it.

Miller_time04
11-12-2012, 05:40 AM
I was all about lance last season. Wanted him to get more time. So happy he is taking advantage of it.

owl
11-12-2012, 08:37 AM
Lance is making me a believer this season. Btw, while we're naming and shaming, why not give props to 90s and McKeyFan who have been beating the Lance drum for a while. I'm sure there's others as well.

Anyone think we can get our own version of Linsanity? Pacers still have an offensive void and Lance looks to be in good position to fill it. Would it surprise anyone at this point if Lance runs off a string of 20 point games this season? I think the new Lance is capable of it.

I hope everyone is right about Lance. I see some good things. He certainly is not timid. He has the drive. He does
NOT have Dwade athleticism. He has good strength and size. He is finally getting some minutes as he needs reps
so he can find out what works in the NBA and what does not.

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 10:26 AM
Lance is making me a believer this season. Btw, while we're naming and shaming, why not give props to 90s and McKeyFan who have been beating the Lance drum for a while. I'm sure there's others as well.

Anyone think we can get our own version of Linsanity? Pacers still have an offensive void and Lance looks to be in good position to fill it. Would it surprise anyone at this point if Lance runs off a string of 20 point games this season? I think the new Lance is capable of it.

Lancesanity? Lansanity? Stephensanity?

McKeyFan
11-12-2012, 10:32 AM
Lancesanity? Lansanity? Stephensanity?

I'll go with door number two.

aamcguy
11-12-2012, 12:16 PM
I hated "Linsanity"

kielbeze
11-12-2012, 12:27 PM
Got a question for Born Ready?

Area 55 Grand Poobah Joe Murphy passed this along to me, via former Area 55 member Zach "LANCE STEPHENSON FOR PRESIDENT" Brown, who happens to be the webmaster for the official Lance Stephenson website, bornready6.com (the number change hasn't quite taken effect with the website yet). Zach wants to gather a huge list of questions for "Born Ready" for a Q+A session on the site, so if you've got a question you've always wanted to ask Lance, now is your chance! Email any of them you'd like to see answered to redfoster@gmail.com .



Just a repost from the A55/G2/PTO thread but noteworthy if you would like to interact with old Born Ready himself.

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 12:58 PM
I liked Linsanity. C'mon, it's a great story for the guy. It lasted a bit too long, but I didn't mind it in the least.

McKeyFan
11-12-2012, 01:07 PM
I hated "Linsanity"

Don't worry. It had nothing to do Lin and everything to do with the world's largest media market.

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 01:08 PM
I liked Linsanity. C'mon, it's a great story for the guy. It lasted a bit too long, but I didn't mind it in the least.

It was a nice that he was able to succeed, but I don't really care that much.

sportfireman
11-12-2012, 01:11 PM
IMO the sky is the limit for both Lance and PG..... the one thing that Lance lacks is fear. In this case it's a plus. PG plays timid at times. Thats what sets them apart sometimes. To me. I love that about Lance he seems like he has that won't back down approach.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 01:23 PM
I really hope people don't get their hopes too high, I expect Lance to be a good rotation player but not some kind of star or anything like that.

Eleazar
11-12-2012, 01:39 PM
I really hope people don't get their hopes too high, I expect Lance to be a good rotation player but not some kind of star or anything like that.

You know how people are around here, expect the moon, then when they don't deliver it is a witch hunt if they just turn out to be a decent role player instead of the super mega star they imagined.

Ace E.Anderson
11-12-2012, 01:50 PM
I really hope people don't get their hopes too high, I expect Lance to be a good rotation player but not some kind of star or anything like that.

I agree, hence my Rodney Stuckey comment. BUT I will say, it's easy for ppl to get excited bout a player like Lance because we've never really had a guy with his type of skills. (I.E creativity, ball handling, street swag, etc)

Those things don't make you a star by any means, but it's nice to see because we always see those types of players on OTHER teams.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 01:52 PM
You know how people are around here, expect the moon, then when they don't deliver it is a witch hunt if they just turn out to be a decent role player instead of the super mega star they imagined.

Yep if Lance doesn't average 20ppg some people are going to be mad.

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 01:55 PM
Yep if Lance doesn't average 20ppg some people are going to be mad.

At least in your mind.

I've always been high on Lance, but I'll take somewhere around 12pts 4dimes 4boards and he'll be a huge success.

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 01:57 PM
The other thing that has surprised me about Lance is his conditioning. He looks ready to go all the time. I haven't really seen him laboring out there.

eric1516
11-12-2012, 02:01 PM
I agree, hence my Rodney Stuckey comment. BUT I will say, it's easy for ppl to get excited bout a player like Lance because we've never really had a guy with his type of skills. (I.E creativity, ball handling, street swag, etc)

Those things don't make you a star by any means, but it's nice to see because we always see those types of players on OTHER teams.

Completely agree. Lance has a combination of entertainment and production value that would be beneficial for our market.

McKeyFan
11-12-2012, 02:07 PM
I really hope people don't get their hopes too high, I expect Lance to be a good rotation player but not some kind of star or anything like that.


You know how people are around here, expect the moon, then when they don't deliver it is a witch hunt if they just turn out to be a decent role player instead of the super mega star they imagined.

I've been predicting he'll break out since his first summer. Ya'll's nanny admonitions of moderation ain't nothing but a thing.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 02:22 PM
At least in your mind.

I've always been high on Lance, but I'll take somewhere around 12pts 4dimes 4boards and he'll be a huge success.

So that means that you are going to complain if he only averages 10ppg? ;)

CJ Jones
11-12-2012, 02:33 PM
Don't forget Seth, Mackey and BWD.

Ah yes, the Lance has no discernible NBA talent/I think I know more than the Legend crew. I'm not positive those were the guys, but there certainly were several people here that thought Lance was useless, and it had nothing to do with his off court problems. Even if Lance continues to play like he his now and doesn't improve over the course of his career he's proven those folks to be dead wrong. I'm sure they want to see him play this way consistently for a few months before they eat their crow, which is fair, but they can't doubt his talent anymore.

Since86
11-12-2012, 02:37 PM
The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 03:09 PM
So that means that you are going to complain if he only averages 10ppg? ;)

Exactly. :P

Ace E.Anderson
11-12-2012, 03:12 PM
The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.

To take your point even further, the things he's not quite good at, (off the ball defense, silly turnovers, shot selection) are things that will easily improve with more time/experience on the court. I'd always rather have a young player who's overly aggressive and needs to learn when to pick and choose his spots, as opposed to having a guy who's got all the talent in the world but needs to be "pushed".

The things Lance is doing, getting to the cup, shooting a decent % when left open from 3, are things that he can continue to do. If his J is falling he's very difficult to handle because he's strong, and can go left or right with his dribble.

Sparhawk
11-12-2012, 03:13 PM
The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.

Talent wise, I think Lance and PG are right at the top. I include PG cause he's good at getting assists and is probably the best rebounding sg in the league. He really goes after those boards, and has that knack for knowing where the ball will carom off the rim. PGs handles are vastly improved over last season, and he also has a pretty shot. I also think PG has an above average basketball IQ.

Lance has the handles and excellent court vision. He's worked on his shot and it's showing so far this season. Lance has also reigned in some of the mental mistakes that causes him to get a high number of TOs. He's obviously in the right flow of the game, where as before he was too slow or just much too fast. Even his defense has improved, but he's still got a lot of work to do there.

I think both Lance and PG need to work on being more aggressive and attacking the basket more, and try to get to the FT line more.

clownskull
11-12-2012, 03:39 PM
The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.

from what i have seen, lance is the best slasher and scorer on the team by a considerable margin. i think he can replace that element barbosa gave us from time to time. and throw in the ability to help create for others too. he has been the most pleasant surprise of this season for me no doubt.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 04:00 PM
The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.

Yes and his name is Josh Mcroberts :)

Kemo
11-12-2012, 04:19 PM
It sure does feel nice getting a tiny bit of vindication for those of us who have been Lance's biggest prognosticators of his talent, potential and abilities as a basketball player.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
11-12-2012, 04:37 PM
I'm glad Lance is doing something at last.


But I still don't like him.

CJ Jones
11-12-2012, 04:44 PM
I pity the fool...

90'sNBARocked
11-12-2012, 06:45 PM
Yeak kemo,.

I remeber a lot of it all, talk of things like "he cant play at all, and should be cut immediately etc etc

thats cool, we all make mistakes :)

BlueNGold
11-12-2012, 09:58 PM
I never doubted his ability to pass and score the ball. But I did doubt his shooting and defense...so on that point I will admit I am surprised he has improved this much. I did not expect him to be shooting this well and I'm shocked how well he is defending. I am now convinced he is at least a good backup combo guard.

At the same time, who have we played? Let's see how he attempts to guard DWade or LeBron. If he can handle that as well as Granger, for example, he will silence all of his critics.

Naptown_Seth
11-12-2012, 10:50 PM
Lance has 2 fundamental things going for him right now.

1) His work on shooting has him as the primary/only solid 3pt threat on a team that desperately needs more than one.

2) His playground style and desire to make things up on the fly are conducive to solving the other major issue the Pacers have which is no flow between players, and from that virtually no passing.


Also I think Lance/Tyler show the best relationship on the team. Lance knows were Tyler is going to be and gets him the ball in a way we wish Hill or Paul were getting the ball to West or Roy.


HOWEVER - I also thought Price was a great passer and for all the chest pounding in this thread I think only Sookie, myself and maybe 3 other posters thought Price was worth anything, and he just showed up and dropped double digit assists on the Pacers and nearly led his weak team to a road victory. So maybe let's cool the jets on the "we all showed you" angle. It's pretty 6 games vs meh teams and some god awful basketball early to make any calls.


Paul shows more overall skill by far and clearly Green is a superior athlete. So for all this "he's the most talented player" talk, it's just nuts.


In fact I think Lance is in a dangerous position right now. He's having some success, but due to his style and attitude he runs the risk of letting it go to his head and reverting into "bad Tinsley". He still gets way too cute with the ball when he starts feeling it, throws pointless moves into plays that go nowhere (ie, shake and bake, crossover, head fake, head fake, pull up 20 foot jumper for iron), and teeters on getting distracted with yapping about plays.



Those 2 areas of strength I mentioned are VERY VALUABLE to this team, and the shooting especially is a credit to his work. But all the people saying they saw that in him are full of it because he wasn't a great outside shooter previously and had no history of it. Everyone has always loved his pointless hot sauce flair moves. That and his size.

But the hot sauce at least isn't what's coming to fruition and making him better right now. It's the boring old shooting work and his willingness to take a shot.

Lance is NOT DRAWING FOULS for all his perceived aggressiveness and ability to create his own shot (5 FTAs total, 1.1 per 36 ranks 10th on the team).

His Assists per 36 is 4th and at 2.9 he's way behind the "non PG" Hill (6.4) and the pretty awful so far DJ (5.2). Paul George also leads him (3.2).

So right now you have a good shooting backup guard that gets steals at the same rate as Hill, Paul or even DJ and turns it over at the same rate as Roy Hibbert has been.

What Lance is right now is a good backup guard, he's killing that role I'd say. But he's not filling, let alone killing the "best guy on the team" role.

This is just a case of expectations and looking better compared to the options. And at a rate of about 1 3PM per game, it's not like his scoring is changing the world. It's very helpful, very needed, but he'll have to up the contributions quite a bit before he's making good on the standard imagery put out by some of the fanboys.



Frankly it should just be enough to say that a kid that used to flake out has finally put in enough serious work to make himself a useful weapon. To me that's enough compliment on it's own given his history, one that mirrors Gerald Green. That's where I'm hanging my "hope hat" right now. That and BAMF's post game.

CJ Jones
11-12-2012, 11:00 PM
To take your point even further, the things he's not quite good at, (off the ball defense, silly turnovers, shot selection) are things that will easily improve with more time/experience on the court. I'd always rather have a young player who's overly aggressive and needs to learn when to pick and choose his spots, as opposed to having a guy who's got all the talent in the world but needs to be "pushed".

The things Lance is doing, getting to the cup, shooting a decent % when left open from 3, are things that he can continue to do. If his J is falling he's very difficult to handle because he's strong, and can go left or right with his dribble.

re his off ball defense, I've saw noticeable improvements in the last few games. He's still not very good at maneuvering around screens, and opposing offenses are definitely picking on him by running him through single and often times double screens, but he's no longer dieing on them like he used to. He still not a good defender by any means, but he's steadily improving. I'd still like to see Frank take more advantage of our versatility defensively by hiding Lance on the least dangerous player 1-3 and letting Hill and Paul guard the other 2 more dangerous guys. There's really no reason for Lance to ever have to guard the best wing scorer when he's semi capable of guarding 3 positions depending on who the opponent is.

CJ Jones
11-12-2012, 11:12 PM
Passing was never the issue with A.J., it was his shooting/shot selection and the fact that some us thought he was playing ahead of a guy with a much higher ceiling.

Naptown_Seth
11-12-2012, 11:27 PM
The other thing that has surprised me about Lance is his conditioning. He looks ready to go all the time. I haven't really seen him laboring out there.
But did he previously?

I never doubted his size/strength or his conditioning. My concern was lots of flash to moves that didn't really gain any advantage in the end and often ate more clock than helped the play. This is why people liked him more at the SG, except he wasn't really looking like a natural shooting threat.

I trust him to take shots now, obviously. But there's the risk that this is just a nice 8-17 streak over 7 games that won't hold up. It feels reliable but if this was player Q from Utah or GSW it wouldn't make me want to shove guys off the roster to get him, statistically speaking. In fact most of PD couldn't name any other 8 3PM so far guards for other teams. Martell Webster for Lance trade? How about trading for Jae Crowder? Lance for Bayless? Pondexter?

These are guys making the same amount of 3s at the same rate, and most are scoring more overall and getting more assists.

Lance was a 40th pick. In that regard he's a success because he's played the 25th most minutes in his class and might yet climb past a few more guys. He's 3rd in minutes past the 28th pick behind Fields and "token minutes" Harangody. Great bang for buck pick.



** Of course someone had to make a McRoberts joke, yet Josh is 6th in minutes at Orlando (ie, he's playing) and his P36 assists/TOs is 3.3 vs 1.3 (about 2.5 A/T ratio). Lance is dishing it at 2.9 vs 2.3 (about 1.3 A/T ratio). And per usual Josh is at 8.8 reb36 vs Tyler's 8.7 and 50% shooting vs 37%. So basically same old, same old. The Josh fans are just as right about him as the Lance fans.

vnzla81
11-12-2012, 11:32 PM
** Of course someone had to make a McRoberts joke, yet Josh is 6th in minutes at Orlando (ie, he's playing) and his P36 assists/TOs is 3.3 vs 1.3 (about 2.5 A/T ratio). Lance is dishing it at 2.9 vs 2.3 (about 1.3 A/T ratio). And per usual Josh is at 8.8 reb36 vs Tyler's 8.7 and 50% shooting vs 37%. So basically same old, same old. The Josh fans are just as right about him as the Lance fans.

Yep lets use the holly per36 stats to make a point ...... Plumlee per36 is 18 and 9 by the way yep future all star .......

Sparhawk
11-13-2012, 08:14 AM
But did he previously?

I never doubted his size/strength or his conditioning. My concern was lots of flash to moves that didn't really gain any advantage in the end and often ate more clock than helped the play. This is why people liked him more at the SG, except he wasn't really looking like a natural shooting threat.

I trust him to take shots now, obviously. But there's the risk that this is just a nice 8-17 streak over 7 games that won't hold up. It feels reliable but if this was player Q from Utah or GSW it wouldn't make me want to shove guys off the roster to get him, statistically speaking. In fact most of PD couldn't name any other 8 3PM so far guards for other teams. Martell Webster for Lance trade? How about trading for Jae Crowder? Lance for Bayless? Pondexter?

These are guys making the same amount of 3s at the same rate, and most are scoring more overall and getting more assists.

Lance was a 40th pick. In that regard he's a success because he's played the 25th most minutes in his class and might yet climb past a few more guys. He's 3rd in minutes past the 28th pick behind Fields and "token minutes" Harangody. Great bang for buck pick.



** Of course someone had to make a McRoberts joke, yet Josh is 6th in minutes at Orlando (ie, he's playing) and his P36 assists/TOs is 3.3 vs 1.3 (about 2.5 A/T ratio). Lance is dishing it at 2.9 vs 2.3 (about 1.3 A/T ratio). And per usual Josh is at 8.8 reb36 vs Tyler's 8.7 and 50% shooting vs 37%. So basically same old, same old. The Josh fans are just as right about him as the Lance fans.

Lance doesn't necessarily have the look of a guy that can play extended minutes. That takes more than just practicing your shot and dribble moves. Never thought he'd be one to train hard in cardio. Maybe it's cause of his build.

Pacer Fan
11-13-2012, 08:46 AM
Anything positive from Lance this season is great...I hold my breath of further continuation.

TheDavisBrothers
11-13-2012, 09:04 AM
Anyone think we can get our own version of Linsanity? Pacers still have an offensive void and Lance looks to be in good position to fill it. Would it surprise anyone at this point if Lance runs off a string of 20 point games this season? I think the new Lance is capable of it.

I was thinking the exact same thing...

I don't think Lance is ever gonna be a superstar, but I'm definitely liking the potential of the Hill/Lance/PG backcourt, not just this year but for the next 5 years. If Granger sits out the whole year, continues to have injury issues, and we don't bring him back after next season, we could be looking at the long term starters for the Pacers. Or if Granger returns and PG doesn't show the type of improvement that warrents the kind of money that's gonna be offered to him in FA, maybe we'll be looking at a Hill/Lance/Granger backcourt...

Since86
11-13-2012, 09:07 AM
Yes and his name is Josh Mcroberts :)

Good one....

Pacergeek
11-13-2012, 09:25 AM
I'm expecting Lance to destroy Toronto tonight

McKeyFan
11-13-2012, 10:01 AM
Lance has 2 fundamental things going for him right now.

1) His work on shooting has him as the primary/only solid 3pt threat on a team that desperately needs more than one.

2) His playground style and desire to make things up on the fly are conducive to solving the other major issue the Pacers have which is no flow between players, and from that virtually no passing.

Agreed. However, you make it sound like this is some sudden problem. We've had problem with movement, passing, penetration, and creativity for several years. Lance could possibly solve a longtime problem, not just something that popped up by Granger's absence.





HOWEVER - I also thought Price was a great passer and for all the chest pounding in this thread I think only Sookie, myself and maybe 3 other posters thought Price was worth anything, and he just showed up and dropped double digit assists on the Pacers and nearly led his weak team to a road victory.
For the record, I was always an AJ Price fan. I liked him better than Collison in terms of helping the entire offense. Unfortunately, he just couldn't hit a very high percentage. He rarely shot for us like he did for the Wiz the other night.




So maybe let's cool the jets on the "we all showed you" angle. It's pretty 6 games vs meh teams and some god awful basketball early to make any calls.
I didn't write the OP with "we all showed you" in mind. In drifted into that (not started by me) but I don't want that to be the main tenor of the thread. I think we can both agree that the most important thing is what helps the Pacers the most. You have a number of places you can say "I told you so," particularly the Tyler predictions, yet I never saw you wanting anything but to be shown wrong about Tyler in order to help the Pacers. Similarly, I am an admitted Lance fan, first and foremost because I am dying for the Pacers to finally come a across a legitimate creator/distributor to move us to the next level.




Paul shows more overall skill by far
Man, I just totally disagree.



and clearly Green is a superior athlete. So for all this "he's the most talented player" talk, it's just nuts.
Talent is not that related to athleticism. Think Larry Bird. I say Lance is more talented than Paul, far more talented than Green, and not as athletic as either.




In fact I think Lance is in a dangerous position right now. He's having some success, but due to his style and attitude he runs the risk of letting it go to his head and reverting into "bad Tinsley". He still gets way too cute with the ball when he starts feeling it, throws pointless moves into plays that go nowhere (ie, shake and bake, crossover, head fake, head fake, pull up 20 foot jumper for iron), and teeters on getting distracted with yapping about plays.
Generally agree with you here. I don't think his moves are pointless, I think they are generally effective, but I do have a similar fear that he resorts to playground ball and attitudes. The few games of this season have been very encouraging that this won't be a huge temptation for him.




Those 2 areas of strength I mentioned are VERY VALUABLE to this team, and the shooting especially is a credit to his work. But all the people saying they saw that in him are full of it because he wasn't a great outside shooter previously and had no history of it. Everyone has always loved his pointless hot sauce flair moves. That and his size.
Not me. From the first summer league, I saw a scorer. I saw a scorer that could shoot. Beyond that, my premise has always been that you don't hold the all time scoring record for New York without being able to shoot from the outside. The proof now seems to be in the pudding.




But the hot sauce at least isn't what's coming to fruition and making him better right now. It's the boring old shooting work and his willingness to take a shot.

This is what separates him from Paul George. Lance is more like West and Granger than he is Paul.




But he's not filling, let alone killing the "best guy on the team" role. . . but he'll have to up the contributions quite a bit before he's making good on the standard imagery put out by some of the fanboys.


I agree, but I think he needs to be given the opportunity to fill it. Sooner than later.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
11-13-2012, 10:41 AM
Lance has 2 fundamental things going for him right now.

1) His work on shooting has him as the primary/only solid 3pt threat on a team that desperately needs more than one.

2) His playground style and desire to make things up on the fly are conducive to solving the other major issue the Pacers have which is no flow between players, and from that virtually no passing.


Also I think Lance/Tyler show the best relationship on the team. Lance knows were Tyler is going to be and gets him the ball in a way we wish Hill or Paul were getting the ball to West or Roy.


HOWEVER - I also thought Price was a great passer and for all the chest pounding in this thread I think only Sookie, myself and maybe 3 other posters thought Price was worth anything, and he just showed up and dropped double digit assists on the Pacers and nearly led his weak team to a road victory. So maybe let's cool the jets on the "we all showed you" angle. It's pretty 6 games vs meh teams and some god awful basketball early to make any calls.


Paul shows more overall skill by far and clearly Green is a superior athlete. So for all this "he's the most talented player" talk, it's just nuts.


In fact I think Lance is in a dangerous position right now. He's having some success, but due to his style and attitude he runs the risk of letting it go to his head and reverting into "bad Tinsley". He still gets way too cute with the ball when he starts feeling it, throws pointless moves into plays that go nowhere (ie, shake and bake, crossover, head fake, head fake, pull up 20 foot jumper for iron), and teeters on getting distracted with yapping about plays.



Those 2 areas of strength I mentioned are VERY VALUABLE to this team, and the shooting especially is a credit to his work. But all the people saying they saw that in him are full of it because he wasn't a great outside shooter previously and had no history of it. Everyone has always loved his pointless hot sauce flair moves. That and his size.

But the hot sauce at least isn't what's coming to fruition and making him better right now. It's the boring old shooting work and his willingness to take a shot.

Lance is NOT DRAWING FOULS for all his perceived aggressiveness and ability to create his own shot (5 FTAs total, 1.1 per 36 ranks 10th on the team).

His Assists per 36 is 4th and at 2.9 he's way behind the "non PG" Hill (6.4) and the pretty awful so far DJ (5.2). Paul George also leads him (3.2).

So right now you have a good shooting backup guard that gets steals at the same rate as Hill, Paul or even DJ and turns it over at the same rate as Roy Hibbert has been.

What Lance is right now is a good backup guard, he's killing that role I'd say. But he's not filling, let alone killing the "best guy on the team" role.

This is just a case of expectations and looking better compared to the options. And at a rate of about 1 3PM per game, it's not like his scoring is changing the world. It's very helpful, very needed, but he'll have to up the contributions quite a bit before he's making good on the standard imagery put out by some of the fanboys.



Frankly it should just be enough to say that a kid that used to flake out has finally put in enough serious work to make himself a useful weapon. To me that's enough compliment on it's own given his history, one that mirrors Gerald Green. That's where I'm hanging my "hope hat" right now. That and BAMF's post game.
I was a Price supporter. Couldn't understand why they would let him go in favor of Augustin. Price would have been cheaper and more versatile.

'Throw Baby Mama Down the Stairs' Lance is having a good year so far. Great for him since he is playing for next years contract.


Still don't like the fool.

Sookie
11-13-2012, 12:35 PM
I never understood the Price v Lance arguments. I always felt that Price wasn't playing over Lance, and Price was a point guard and Lance wasn't. (And I think I'm still right there.) With AJ's game here, I was just happy to see he clearly has/had a good reputation (to say the least) with the Pacers organization. (Particularly Tyler, Hill, and Frank.). The way the organization likes their point guards to play is pretty much like a combo guard. (And I think that stems back to Larry..) And AJ was probably better off on a team that prefers a more traditional PG approach. For those wondering, Jim O'brien's system still hasn't been fully exorcised from AJ's game..it's mostly gone, but there's usually about a two minute span per game where Jimmy shows up again. :P

Lance, I'm happy to see that not only does he appear to have grown up (most important) but his game is clearly improving. I think his talent level is exaggerated because of his flashiness. (No, I don't think he's close to being the most talented Pacer.) Then again, I think we likely all have different definitions of talent anyway.

The reason though, as Naptown pointed out, he's having as much success as he is, is because of his improved shooting. Which was never (from 3) in his game before the NBA or in his past two seasons. He also has calmed down his playground approach, and learned to make more simple plays (although not as much as he should.) which helps a lot as well. I'm not saying this to "beat up" on him. I'm just saying calm down guys. He's been our best bench player. He does have talent, and if he stays consistent and improves in the areas he needs to improve in he could be a very good 3rd guard. (Which he's shown he's willing to do.) I'm happy to eat crow about his maturity and transition from playground to NBA. (Which, kudos to the Pacers for taking the time to do that. Knuckleheads work out for NBA teams like .1% of the time. The Pacers obviously did a fantastic job in helping him grow on and off the court. ) But it's only been a year and a half since he's done something stupid. And it's only been about 5 games of playing well. So hold on to the "I told you so" thing.

pacer4ever
11-13-2012, 03:32 PM
Lance to me I always viewed as the most talented offensive player for his position until we signed West(west with his footwork and ball handling in his prime is elite for a PF offensively). I said a few days after the draft he could be better than George offensively.The reason being was his frame combined with his ablity to keep his dribble alive(critical skill to be an elite scorer IMO). That is why guys like Manu and Harden are impossible to stop they always keep there dribble. The shooting didn't really bother me I am in the camp of you can fix shooting(if they work hard and break it all down and start from scratch. Guys like Rondo played from day 1 and didnt have the chance like Lance to work on that skill all day). I loved how cocky in played in college and not many have that cocky style. It will hurt him at times but watching him at Cinncy I got the feel he loved the game of basketball and that is something that is a must. Buckner says he is a gym rat and that doesn't surprise me watching him at the pro am you can tell the kid really loves what he does. I also though when we drafted him he would be a great post player one day he has the skills if he spends a summer developing them.

However I hated his decision making and he is actually fixing that. I figured he could be like a Jordan Crawford like scorer but hurt his team some nights. But if he keeps up his imprisonments I will be really wrong on that.

I also hated his defense even when he trys he is limited just because he is so big. He moves poor laterally so he has limitations and will always have them. Harden has this same problem. But when you can score like Harden can you will live with it. I felt the same with Lance he will always be average on defense overall but I will live with it especially considering how much he tries. Now when he takes plays off that is when I get mad.


I just find it funny Lance has respect from the refs now that he didnt as a rookie. The play he made the other night as a rookie the refs would of called carry on. But thats part of the NBA as you play you get more respect Phil Jackson atest to that in his book. As he gets more PT this season I expect the TOs to slowy go down game XP is valuable and cant me duplicated in practice so be patient he should still struggle a lot.

My favorite thing about Lance watching him at Lincoln and at Cincy was that kid wants to take the last shot. Now a days that is getting harder to find. He has a mentality that with his tool set could make him a dominate 6th man for years to come.(if I was a coach that would be my role for him I just like that fit for my team best. he is a OW and off the bench that is so nice to have)

McKeyFan
11-13-2012, 03:36 PM
But if he keeps up his imprisonments I will be really wrong on that.


Freudian slip for sure.

:laugh:


Great post.

pacer4ever
11-13-2012, 04:16 PM
Freudian slip for sure.

:laugh:


Great post.

*improvment :laugh: I wish I remembered what thread that was in. I know I was responding to Cdash who ask if anyone thought Lance could be better than PG. I donk remember what specific thread it was.