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Peck
11-01-2012, 02:26 AM
Was this victory # 1 in what is destined to be an 82 win season? Ok, probably not but letís just all bow our heads and thank God for giving us this miracle of a game.

Iím going to probably harp on a lot of things in this post so before I go into that I want to make absolutely certain that I address this right up front.

We ainít (yes ainít is perfectly acceptable here in the Hoosier state) sneaking up on nobody this year. The fight we got tonight from the Raptors certainly was heightened by the fact that they did not want to lose their home opener but Iím telling you guys that we are going to be getting this effort from most teams this season as we are now known throughout the NBA. The press may not know us, the general NBA fan may not know us but I can assure you ever G.M., coach & player in the NBA knows us and knows we canít be taken lightly.

For this reason alone let us all take a moment to give a standing ovation to former President of basketball operations Larry Bird.

:citizenkane:

Ok now that this is out of the way I will now start with the evaluation and itís not always going to be pretty.

Oh before I do that though I want to say something else, I just watched Portland and this is the first time Iíve ever seen this Damian Lillard play and all I can say is ďwowĒ this guy is good.

Ok tonight was a prime example why I was pretty unhappy with George Hill for not playing any in the pre-season. Now before you all want to lynch me for not giving him a break for being injured let me say this, yes it did look like he was in severe discomfort playing & I take back any of my previous suspicions. Like I said too many years of watching Jamaal ďsinus infection for lifeĒ Tinsley.

Anyway the serious problem from that stems from him missing the pre-season was the fact that D.J. Augustin pretty much played with the starters and tonight it looked like not only was this his first regular season game with the bench, it looked like it was the first time they played together period. I know that is not the case but man that second unit stagnated again just as bad as it did last season.

Augustin did as well as he could but there was just no flow at all to the benchís game.

Of course with Dannyís injury the bench was screwed up as well. Green was with the starters & they had to depend a lot on Sam Young who actually hit his two shots from the field but didnít do much in the way of creating offense. Plus it really was their first game together.

I wonder though if we wonít see Hill in street clothes for the Bobcats game? He really was wincing in pain at the end of the game.

To open the season let us provide grades to our players, hey might as well start the season average grade rolling right out of the gate.

Gerald Green: C-

Nervousness thy name is Green. Iím not sure Gerald has ever played a game that actually mattered in the NBA in a role where he was actually counted on. If this game was in December or after this might have merited an F or at the very least a strong D but seeing as how it was his first game & it looked like he might pass out from being in the spotlight Iíll give him a break and go with the C-. But anytime you have as many turnovers as points you know you have a problem. He did some good things out there defensively but Iím not sure he caused Landry Fields to miss all 6 of his shots or Landry Fields caused himself to miss all 6 shots. Heís got some big shoes to fill and it is only one night but I think those who thought we would all go ďDanny whoĒ when Gerald Green took off might want to lower their expectations down to being happy that he contributes to winning and not look for him to actually replace Danny Granger.

David West: B+

Oh I know that grade is not going to make anyone happy but Iím telling you if I just averaged out his play over the entire game I would have only given him a C. I figure if you single handily bring a team back from a 10 point deficit you get the benefit of the doubt. Why would it only have been a C you ask? Simple, up until he went into God mode there at the end I would have given him an F. I was so disgusted with him in the first half I actually wanted Tyler Hansbrough on the court, TYLER HANSBROUGH. That sayís it all. But I canít lie, dude went Jordan on the Raptors and did something that very few players weíve ever had be able to do and that was throw us on his back and drug us to victory. But 2 rebounds? Two? Not to mention the fact that Bargnani made him look like he was wearing cement shoes for most of the night. I deeply appreciate the fact that on offense this guy is special, but he really more than anybody is hurt by Danny not being on the floor for defense. Yes I said Danny Granger plays good interior defense & David West can not, deal with it.

Roy Hibbert: B+

The way he started the game I thought we were in store for one of those special nights that only true big men can give you. Little did I know that when Roy went into the locker room he would leave his offensive game in there with him. Now to Royís credit for whatever reason Frank did leave him out for a long stretch in the 3rd and by the time he got back in they just didnít run plays for him & then West went wild so he wasnít involved there but it was just kind of odd the way his game just kind of went away & I donít feel like it was really anything Toronto did. The real irony of this is pretty simple Iím looking at a 14 point 9 rebound 5 block game from Roy and just think he had a decent game. 4 years ago this would have been a career game for him & a much better career game than some people thought he would ever have. Oh before I forget letís all be sure to once again take a min. and laugh at this fact. Toronto gave us Roy Hibbert (along with other pieces) for Jermaine OíNealís old broken down @ss. Hahahahahahahahaahhahahahaahahhahahahahahahahaha

Paul George: B+

Anytime you get 15 rebounds out of your shooting guard you need to rejoice. In fact this would have been two months of rebounds for Reggie Miller and the fact is Paul can get these types of numbers fairly often (not as high as 15 but 10 is not out of the question). I like the fact that he didnít force the issue to much tonight and he had a couple of moves early in the first quarter where he cut baseline and another where he posted up Lowry that were just excellent basketball plays. They werenít fancy or going to be on anybodyís top 10 but that is how you win games. Yes he turned the ball over to often and had a couple of really sloppy passes but overall I am glad he didnít try and force himself into trying to be a hero and just played his game. I still think he and Danny compliment each other on the defensive end very well, far better then he does with Green.

George Hill: B+

You know what it takes to sale real estate? The same thing it takes to take the last second shot in a game.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6FWfKoc-MKM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Many of you will get the Glengarry Glenn Ross reference; some of you wonít so go look it up.

He just works with the first unit, I canít put my finger on it either because heís really not that great of a passer although I thought it looked like he had been working on his passing especially his entry passes to the post. Heís a decent shooter and a pretty good defender but there is just something chemistry wise about him when he is on the floor with the other 4 starters that just works. I really could see the pain on his face tonight so I am really going to give him a break on the Kyle Lowry front; I think he was guarding him on a bad hip. Give him two good hips & I donít think Lowry gives him any trouble. Very proud of him for the way he played and even more proud of him for the way he finished the game. Frank said after the game he asked George if he needed to come out and he told him he wanted to finish the game.

Tyler Hansbrough: B

Yea Iím as shocked by that grade as you are. But I canít deny the fact that Tyler actually defended tonight, in fact he stopped a fast break by getting back and making the guard commit to a pass which led the ball going out of bounds. He didnít take any stupid shots and he hit all of his free throws. Think about that for a min. if Tyler hadnít hit his free throws we could have lost that game. :shudder: It still kills me that teams surround him with 2, 3 & sometimes even 4 players and they foul him instead of just blocking his shot, but hey if they are dumb enough to do it then by all means letís take advantage of it. Hey he is what he is, so Iím sure Iíll have plenty of nights this year where I scorch him with pithy commentary but for me for tonight anyway I thought he played within himself.

Sam Young: C+
In a world of 31 flavors Sam Young is the Neapolitan (chocolate, vanilla & strawberry) with no toppings. Nothing fancy here just gets the job done with efficiency. Now having said that I want to float this idea out there. If Danny is down for extended time I wonder if maybe moving Sam to the starting 3 spot wouldnít make some sense so that way Geraldís offense can have more of an impact and not force him into being a scorer who get the attention of the better defenders? The front 5 doesnít need the offensive kick like the second five does & Sam canít turn up big numbers like I think Gerald could. Just a thought. Look I like this guy, my kind of player. Hard nosed & doesnít do things that he knows he canít do. But he is not a game changer & no I donít think he is a starter either but I think he might just fit better with our starters & Gerald might be better being with Augustin.

Lance Stephenson: C

I know this may not sound like much but he did nothing stupid and actually stepped into a three point shot and drilled it. He did help out on the glass which is a positive, in fact our shooting guard position netted us 19 rebounds tonight & Iíd say that is a real positive for our team. He didnít rush tonight but he also didnít look as lethargic as he did in that Bulls game. Not sure yet what to think his role is going to be.

Ian Mahinmi: C-

Not going to lie, I was vastly disappointed. He didnít play bad mind you but the way I was pimping him the season preview this was not what I was expecting. Itís like in the pre-season I was watching a different player. He had soft hands and grabbed tough passes; tonight he will be awarded the Scott Pollard stone hands award. He was a go getter on the offensive end and was taking it hard to the rack, tonight he shot the ball once in almost 19 min. of play & he missed that shot. He did rebound well and he did block a couple of shots but I donít feel as though he was an intimidator out there on defense. Iím really hoping this was just opening night jitters.

D.J. Augustin: C-

Did nothing of consequence. It was like it was the first time he played with the bench players & in fact it really was. He of course was just simply abused by Calderon which I expected but the fact that our other bench players just could not score much did not help him make up for his shaky defense with decent passing. I have to wonder though if he wonít be back in the starting lineup for the Fridayís game as Hill is still hurting.

Like any landing from a plane you can walk away from is good, any victory you can come away with is good. The team is now 21 games above .500% since we exorcised the devil & handed the reigns over the angelic Frank, I mention this just to remind everyone how horrid of a coach you know who was and to state that we are a winning team with Frank.

Expectations are high and this was a great win but dear God please donít let Danny be injured to the point he wonít be able to play for most of the season because while I love our other players with him here we are just one step ahead of everyone not named the Heat and possibly another team out west.

Ah screw all of this sappy stuff.

Now is the time in odd thoughts when we dance.

:dance::dance::pepper::carrot::mango::pineapple:cu cumber::bdance::bdance::badger::dance3::kravitz::y ay::dancingsager::cheer2:

Lord Helmet
11-01-2012, 02:56 AM
Before I read all of this. WOOO Odd Thoughts!

TheDavisBrothers
11-01-2012, 04:07 AM
Aside from the terrible 1st quarter when Bargs had 11 of his 16 points, I thought West's defense was actually pretty good the rest of the game. Also, I know that Hill was injured and hit the game winner, so it's hard to knock him, but he had a pretty awful the majority of the game, aside from the very beginning and end...

tomkat1971
11-01-2012, 04:36 AM
For the most part I'm in agreement with you. Its only one game, and we got a win, but it sure didn't look pretty. Mahinmi fumbled nearly every ball he got his hands on and just looked totally out of sync, but since he played well in the preseason Im still hopefull. Our guards could not handle the ball, at least for the most part. Too much one on one play on the offensive end of the floor. Paul George stepped his game up and Im expecting even more from him.

It was like Indiana forgot we had Roy Hibbert on the team in the second half. Tyler did his normal good job of doing what's needed to be done on both ends. Not the biggest or the most talented but does a good job of using his body to create space for his shot on the inside. Outside of West stepping it up and putting the team on his shoulders at the end I thought the Pacers played a poor game all around. I give the hustle points to the Raptors at home and it was a win for the good guys but not one Im happy with. Oh well, better a bad win than a good loss I guess....

BTW guys, Im not expecting Granger back this season. He has one of those freak injuries that the docs can't really figure out. So Im afraid when they do figure it out it may require an operation to correct it which will probably cost him the season. Hope Im wrong on that...

15th parallel
11-01-2012, 06:55 AM
Well I think that win was pretty good as opposed to some who have viewed it bad. Yeah there were struggles for most part of the game but in the end they still get the W even w/o Granger, w/ an injured Hill, and w/ struggling newcomers. That Toronto looked pretty good out there, and I think they'll not be as easy to beat especially with a potential star in JV. It's still an adjustment period especially w/o Granger playing, so we'll see lots of lineup shuffles in the beginning. If we can win while the team is adjusting then it will be great buffer when things go tough come midseason.

CoolHand
11-01-2012, 07:14 AM
It looked like Hill was fine the entire game until the 4th quarter when he got hip-checked (the foul was called on GH). After that is when he was wincing in pain for the rest of the game. Frank also said in the post-game interview that GH was fine all game until the fourth. So I think that hip check really aggravated his "hip pointer."

McKeyFan
11-01-2012, 07:19 AM
I agree with your assessment of Hill. He just gets the job done. Not flashy. No particular strength (or weakness). He had a great pass to Hibbert that also made me think he may be looking to improve his distribution.

He is clearly a leader, and, most importantly, he is absolutely a monster at the end of games. He certainly took the edge off of $8 million a year last night.

dohman
11-01-2012, 07:20 AM
If the refs call all season like they did this game Roy is going to look like a god. His ability to go STRAIGHT up is amazing. He has almost completely stopped trying to swat shots and is just taking the contact that the offense creates. May not be pretty but it makes for GREAT defense. Add that with the benefit of the doubt calls he will start to get here in the next few months and his block totals will be one of the top in the league again.

I wouldnt blame West and Mahimi for low rebound totals. There are only so many to go around and when Hibbert and 9 and George has 15 it may be hard for the others. Not to mention that west was pulled away from the basket a lot of the night guarding a shooting 4.

McKeyFan
11-01-2012, 07:23 AM
For me, the most positive aspect of last night was the total team distribution. Everybody seemed to be committed to making the nonflashy pass that leads to the best shot. No one was a black hole.

Lance had several of these type passes. PG played within himself in this area, David West had a great pass to Hill for the three that was critical to the game. Hibbert had a few great dimes as usual. Tyler had self control. Augustin is a natural at distribution.

Fortunately, at the end when it was takeover time, West and Hill stepped up and took over. Successfully.

But anyway, that was the best team distribution of the basketball I've seen by a Pacer team in a long time, maybe ever.

Anthem
11-01-2012, 07:56 AM
Couple things not yet mentioned.

1. My favorite play of the night from Roy was when he dove on that loose ball near the end of the 4th. We badly needed that possession, and he went after the ball and got it. Big move from a max big man.

2. People keep mentioning the Stephenson 3, but for my money his best move was the 2-on-1 fastbreak that DJ blew. Lance ran the floor, bulldogged the rebound, and laid it in. Nothing fancy, just a nice simple move that took advantage of his abilities. The dude is just so strong for a SG.

Unclebuck
11-01-2012, 07:57 AM
David West deserves an A+++++.

George Hill may be a lot of things and not all are good, but the man has mental toughness to spare and that is vital for a point guard.

Good NBA teams win games like the pacers did. Every night the better teams often pull games out in the fourth quarter. But if yoiu only follow the final scores you don't realize it. The Spurs won the exact same way come from behind late in the game to win on the road. Looking at it another way how many times 3 and 4 years ago did the Pacers seemingly play well for 44 minutes only to lose at the end against better teams. That is the way of the NBA.

Anthem
11-01-2012, 07:57 AM
But anyway, that was the best team distribution of the basketball I've seen by a Pacer team in a long time, maybe ever.
Except for the turnover ever 2 minutes...

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 07:57 AM
I agree with everything you said Peck, I actually enjoyed this Odd thoughts even more because the typical A+ from Danny not matter what is not in it :)


My grades for last night:

A+ for George, great game overall 15 rebounds? Damn.

B+ for Roy, he had a great first half and an ok second half.

B+ for Hill and West, they got an F for the first 3 quarters and an A+ for the 4th quarter, at one time I think I saw West ironing Bargniani's shirt by the bench, that is how bad it looked and also I don't care how many excuses people try to make for his 2 rebounds but there is not excuse for that, Hill needs to learn how to fight screens by the way.

C- for Green and Mahinmi, just what I expected and what I expect for the rest of the year, maybe a bit better but not by much, they looked amazing in pre-season because it was pre-season.

C for Augustin and Lance, they did ok, nothing special.

B- for Tyler, he was in control, he scored some points and got on the score board(take that SETH :)) and not only that but his defense was needed at the time the starting power forward was getting abused and was in foul trouble because of it.

Great win overall, a lot of ugly basketball, lets hope Vogel learns that the second unit needs to have a different offense and lets hope that those Mahinmi post ups are a thing of the past becuase they don't work.

Anthem
11-01-2012, 08:08 AM
C- for Green and Mahinmi, just what I expected and what I expect for the rest of the year, maybe a bit better but not by much, they looked amazing in pre-season because it was pre-season.
:D I'm bookmarking this for some year-long claim chowder. It'll be Granger/Monta all over again.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 08:17 AM
:D I'm bookmarking this for some year-long claim chowder. It'll be Granger/Monta all over again.

Damn it :mad:

Anthem
11-01-2012, 08:19 AM
Damn it :mad:
;) You know you like it.

Coopdog23
11-01-2012, 08:31 AM
I'm worried about George Hill. It looked like he injured his hip again late in the fourth, but he toughened it out and won us the game. West was huge. PG had a solid game, but could've done more. Roy had a very good game. The bench though....... something they need to work on because they looked out of sync.

BillS
11-01-2012, 10:16 AM
Couldn't watch the game, but I always figure the first game is worse than most other regular season games because the team is excited to finally get on the floor for a REAL game. The lineup won't have much togetherness under its belt if a bunch of the team is new simply because there isn't enough preseason to both evaluate players AND set lineups for more than a couple of game (even without injuries standing in the way). Given those, you're pumped up and jittery like the playoffs but without the year of routine to give you a foundation.

Winning the first one on the road? Priceless.

Ace E.Anderson
11-01-2012, 10:44 AM
Outside of the first Qtr, D.West's defense on Andrea was not that bad. Bargnani and Calderon were making a lot of tough J's early on in the game, and that finally caught up to them late in the fourth. Even when we were down 8-9 points, I figured we'd have a chance to win because when we weren't turning the ball over, we were getting layups, whereas the Raptors were hitting deep jumpers.

Was a little disappointed by Mahinmi and Green, but I'm still hopeful for the rest of the season.

I agree with most people, we should relegate Green as a bench scorer. I think we would be much better served to have Young or----LANCE in the starting lineup. It would just make for a much more balanced team.

All in all, we won a dog fight on the road that in years past would have turned into a 20 point win for the Raptors. This reminds me of the game against the Wizards we won late in the season last year. But we're 1-0. That's all you can ask for at this point.

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 11:52 AM
I don't understand this idea that Bargnani owned West. Bargnani is supposed to be an offensive savant and he was only 4/15 from the field. Where are some of you getting that from?

Eleazar
11-01-2012, 12:32 PM
I don't understand this idea that Bargnani owned West. Bargnani is supposed to be an offensive savant and he was only 4/15 from the field. Where are some of you getting that from?

Until Hansbrough came in in the first quarter Bargnani was owning West. That is about the extent of it, but West didn't do anything in the second or third to disprove the idea. West went from bad, to just kind of there.

CableKC
11-01-2012, 12:48 PM
Ok tonight was a prime example why I was pretty unhappy with George Hill for not playing any in the pre-season. Now before you all want to lynch me for not giving him a break for being injured let me say this, yes it did look like he was in severe discomfort playing & I take back any of my previous suspicions. Like I said too many years of watching Jamaal “sinus infection for life” Tinsley.
I recall seeing a play yesterday where GH was guarding Lowry, Lowry started driving towards the basket while running around a screen set by Jonas V ( I think )...and Jonas V seriously checked GH....right into GH's hip. After that...I saw that GH was limping and trying to walk it off. I'm guessing that GH's adrenaline kept him going....but I think that Hill is still injured but not injured enough to prevent him from playing.

Hopefully the Bobcat's game is going to be a blow out cuz I honestly would like to see GH's minutes reduced a bit just to let him rest.

BillS
11-01-2012, 01:31 PM
Until Hansbrough came in in the first quarter Bargnani was owning West. That is about the extent of it, but West didn't do anything in the second or third to disprove the idea. West went from bad, to just kind of there.

I didn't watch the game, but the epithet "owned" seems a little ludicrous for a guy that only made 4 shots. I'd need a better description about how this was such a clear mismatch, especially since one would have expected him to either get more of those guaranteed makes or else to find out who held him totally scoreless.

I think far to often we take a guy who makes a couple of mistakes on defense and allows scores on those mistakes and call him being "owned". He may not have played very good defense, but I'd save "owned" for Bargs going off for 12-16 points on him.

Eleazar
11-01-2012, 01:35 PM
I didn't watch the game, but the epithet "owned" seems a little ludicrous for a guy that only made 4 shots. I'd need a better description about how this was such a clear mismatch, especially since one would have expected him to either get more of those guaranteed makes or else to find out who held him totally scoreless.

I think far to often we take a guy who makes a couple of mistakes on defense and allows scores on those mistakes and call him being "owned". He may not have played very good defense, but I'd save "owned" for Bargs going off for 12-16 points on him.

West was only in for 5 minutes, and Bargnani scored 9 points. Those 9 points were scored within a 3:30 timeframe.

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 01:41 PM
West was only in for 5 minutes, and Bargnani scored 9 points. Those 9 points were scored within a 3:30 timeframe.


And yet from 2nd to 4th, he scored 7? And how many did he have in the 4th? Bargnani didn't own anyone last night. In fact he was maybe the second worst Toronto starter, bested only by the always sucking Landry Fields.

Only one dude got owned last night in the PF matchups for either team, and it was Bargnani who was beaten like a rented mule for the entire 4th quarter.

Eleazar
11-01-2012, 01:47 PM
And yet from 2nd to 4th, he scored 7? And how many did he have in the 4th? Bargnani didn't own anyone last night. In fact he was maybe the second worst Toronto starter, bested only by the always sucking Landry Fields.

Only one dude got owned last night in the PF matchups for either team, and it was Bargnani who was beaten like a rented mule for the entire 4th quarter.

Yeah, no. Each of them owned the other at different points in the game. West has the obvious edge at the end of the day, but it doesn't negate that West couldn't stop Bargnani in the first quarter, and struggled for the next two quarters before he got hot in the 4th.

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 01:58 PM
One of the PFs was 12/19 for 25 points and 2 boards.

The other was 4/15 for 16 points and 3 boards. This is a silly debate.

I guess Derozan owned Paul George too because he hit a couple shots on him in a row in the 3rd quarter.

And Valacunas had a short time in the 3rd where he dominated Roy so I guess Roy got owned too.

daschysta
11-01-2012, 02:00 PM
Yeah, no. Each of them owned the other at different points in the game. West has the obvious edge at the end of the day, but it doesn't negate that West couldn't stop Bargnani in the first quarter, and struggled for the next two quarters before he got hot in the 4th.

West's ownage in the fourth was far, far larger than Bargnani's "ownage" in the first. 25 points 12-19 vs. 16 points on 4-15 (most of which were scored when West as out). He only had 3 rebounds himself, so I don't know what else you would call it besides West owning the matchup. West scored in the fourth only 2 points less than Andrea scored all night, you must have a really strict definition of ownage if that doesn't qualify in your book.

Eleazar
11-01-2012, 02:02 PM
One of the PFs was 12/19 for 25 points and 2 boards.

The other was 4/15 for 16 points and 3 boards. This is a silly debate.

I guess Derozan owned Paul George too because he hit a couple shots on him in a row in the 3rd quarter.

And Valacunas had a short time in the 3rd where he dominated Roy so I guess Roy got owned too.

Way to watch the game, and read what I typed. :rolleyes:

Stop assuming you know what I am saying because you obviously didn't take the time to actually read anything I have said.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 02:09 PM
One of the PFs was 12/19 for 25 points and 2 boards.

The other was 4/15 for 16 points and 3 boards. This is a silly debate.

I guess Derozan owned Paul George too because he hit a couple shots on him in a row in the 3rd quarter.

And Valacunas had a short time in the 3rd where he dominated Roy so I guess Roy got owned too.


West's ownage in the fourth was far, far larger than Bargnani's "ownage" in the first. 25 points 12-19 vs. 16 points on 4-15 (most of which were scored when West as out). He only had 3 rebounds himself, so I don't know what else you would call it besides West owning the matchup. West scored in the fourth only 2 points less than Andrea scored all night, you must have a really strict definition of ownage if that doesn't qualify in your book.

OK let's leave it at West got owned by Andrea for 2 and a half quarters and West destroyed Andrea on the 4th quarter and got his dignity back? happy? West ended up winning at the end right? once again the stats don't show what we saw yesterday, there is a reason why Tyler played that long, not only because West got in foul trouble but because he was getting owned and sucked on D.

I still don't understand why you guys need to defend West on everything by the way, pointing something out doesn't mean that people are hating on him, because it's true.

Eleazar
11-01-2012, 02:11 PM
West's ownage in the fourth was far, far larger than Bargnani's "ownage" in the first. 25 points 12-19 vs. 16 points on 4-15 (most of which were scored when West as out). He only had 3 rebounds himself, so I don't know what else you would call it besides West owning the matchup. West scored in the fourth only 2 points less than Andrea scored all night, you must have a really strict definition of ownage if that doesn't qualify in your book.


Actually Bargnani only scored 2 points while West was on the bench. Yes, like I already said West owned Bargnani in the fourth. That doesn't negate that Bargnani owned him in the 1st, and West didn't play well in the second or third either.

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:11 PM
Way to watch the game, and read what I typed. :rolleyes:

Stop assuming you know what I am saying because you obviously didn't take the time to actually read anything I have said.

Here's what I know. Bargnani scored 11 points in the first quarter and 16 for the entire game. Of those 11 in the first quarter, 7 could be directly attributed to D-West. From then out, 3 of Bargnani's whopping 5 points scored were from free throws from Roy Hibbert fouls, only two points were scored directly against West the rest of the game.

You said West was owned in the first quarter and then you said it didn't get any better for West in the 2nd or 3rd quarter did you not? How could you possibly say that? Clearly his defense got significantly better. Bargnani only scored 5 points on anyone for the last 39 minutes of the game. This is Toronto's BEST individual scorer, how did West not get any better in the 2nd and 3rd quarter? During this same time period, West scored 11 of his 25 in the 2nd and 3rd. So how exactly did West (your words not mine now) "struggled for the next two quarters before he got hot in the 4th."?

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:12 PM
OK let's leave it at West got owned by Andrea for 2 and a half quarters and West destroyed Andrea on the 4th quarter and got his dignity back? happy? West ended up winning at the end right? once again the stats don't show what we saw yesterday, there is a reason why Tyler played that long, not only because West got in foul trouble but because he was getting owned and sucked on D.

I still don't understand why you guys need to defend West on everything by the way, pointing something out doesn't mean that people are hating on him, because it's true.

How did Andrea own West for 2 and a half quarters? In the 2nd and 3rd quaters, West had 11 points and Andrea had 3. I haven't said once you're hating on him. What I am saying is that what you are saying is not true. He "owned" West (if you want to call it that) for maybe 5 minutes. For the rest of the game David had overall more of an impact on the game.

TheDavisBrothers
11-01-2012, 02:14 PM
I still don't understand why you guys need to defend West on everything by the way, pointing something out doesn't mean that people are hating on him, because it's true.

We don't defend him on everything, but we do defend him seemingly more often, simply because you seem to bash him more often...

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 02:15 PM
How did Andrea own west for 2 and a half quarters? In the 2nd and 3rd quaters, West had 11 points and Andrea had 3. I haven't said once you're hating on him. What I am saying is that what you are saying is not true.

There is a reason why you watch the game, even West said that he didn't play well in the first half are you going to say that he is lying? remember that he is "an straight shooter" and never lies :)

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:16 PM
Here is what I love Vnzla acts like I am coming at him because he is hating on West. I never used the word hating. This is his classic deflection technique instead of addressing the issue. He will play it that I am only disagreeing with him because I think he is "hating" on West. No, I just think he is wrong.

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:16 PM
There is a reason why you watch the game, even West said that he didn't play well in the first half are you going to say that he is lying? remember that he is "an straight shooter" and never lies :)

Never said he played "well", but I am saying he outplayed Bargnani in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Isn't that the argument we're having or are you going to try and change the subject on me?

Also, I watched the game. So come at me with something stronger than that or don't come at all. Just because you say it doesn't make it true :)

West did not play what I would call well in the 1st or 3rd. I would say he played alright in the 2nd and he was dominant in the 4th. I would say Bargnani played well in the first and was terrible in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. I would say West clearly outplayed Bargnani in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Which I thought that was the discussion we were having? But now you are trying to change it to whether or not West played "well" in the first half.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 02:19 PM
We don't defend him on everything, but we do defend him seemingly more often, simply because you seem to bash him more often...

I don't bash him, I try to bring people down to earth when they overrated the crap out of the guy, way different, I have done the same thing with different players before not just him, I did the same with DC last year and I was a "DC hater" until people started to come to my side.

Eleazar
11-01-2012, 02:21 PM
7 could be directly attributed to D-West

9, I don't know where you are missing the last two unless you either don't count the free throws Bargnani made on after West fouled him before going out, or if you aren't counting when West was beat off the dribble resulting in a Hibbert foul?


You said West was owned in the first quarter and then you said it didn't get any better for West in the 2nd or 3rd quarter did you not?

Stop right there I did not say it didn't get any better. I never said anything like that. I said West didn't do anything to "disprove the idea". Meaning he still played like crap, but I did not say Bargnani continued to own him.

aamcguy
11-01-2012, 02:23 PM
It's pretty apparent everybody agrees that West played much better in the second half, and had a better overall output. We won the game, why does the degree to which one player won a matchup matter?

David West always struggles with long 4's who can step outside and knock some shots down anyway.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 02:24 PM
Never said he played "well", but I am saying he outplayed Bargnani in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Isn't that the argument we're having or are you going to try and change the subject on me?

Go back and watch the game, it's the only thing I'm going to tell you, West said it himself, that he sucked in the first half, Tyler was put in for West for a reason.

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:24 PM
9, I don't know where you are missing the last two unless you either don't count the free throws Bargnani made on after West fouled him before going out, or if you aren't counting when West was beat off the dribble resulting in a Hibbert foul?



Stop right there I did not say it didn't get any better. I never said anything like that. I said West didn't do anything to "disprove the idea". Meaning he still played like crap, but I did not say Bargnani continued to own him.

Huh? He outplayed Bargnani in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, just because he didn't play well or up to his own standards does not mean that he didn't disprove the idea that "Bargnani was owning" him or as Vnzla put it so eloquently, he was pretty sure that he "saw West ironing Bargnani's shirt at some point on the sideline" unless Vnzla was talking specifically about the first substitution in the first quarter I'd say he is making an incorrect statement at any other point in the game.

PritchSlap
11-01-2012, 02:25 PM
Back to what Peck said on the possibility of starting Sam Young, just read this report:

"We will stagger the rotation so that the second unit doesn't all of a sudden become Lance [Stephenson] and Sam Young out there together," Vogel said. "They may see some minutes together, but I'll try to keep Paul or Gerald on the court at one time."
(Rotowire.com)

TheDavisBrothers
11-01-2012, 02:26 PM
I don't bash him, I try to bring people down to earth when they overrated the crap out of the guy, way different, I have done the same thing with different players before not just him, I did the same with DC last year and I was a "DC hater" until people started to come to my side.

I'm speaking in complete generalizations so don't get too hung up on my statements, but generally speaking I do think the board has a slightly higher opinion of West then I do, but at the same time it's feels like you are trying to overcompensate their slightly higher opinion of West with an overly negative view of him...

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:28 PM
Go back and watch the game, it's the only thing I'm going to tell you, West said it himself, that he sucked in the first half, Tyler was put in for West for a reason.

Haha, you are hilarious. This was not the discussion we were having. Whether or not West played well. That was not the topic. It was how West did in relation to Bargnani after the first quarter. He outplayed him in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. That does not mean West played well. I never said he played well. I never said he didn't suck in the first quarter or that he didn't play all that well in the second.

Go back and watch the last 7 minutes of the 2nd quarter. West and Bargnani check in at nearly the same time. They both don't do much from there on out, but West won the individual matchup even if neither of them was spectacular. He stole the ball from Bargnani and I believe he also had two buckets. Bargnani had no points and was a net negative on defense. The same thing happens in the 3rd quarter for the most part other than Bargs getting a block or two. He scores I think 3 more points in the 3rd while West puts up 7 and already starts to get rolling. West was already showing positive strides in the 3rd quarter even if some of you are just going to act like he suddenly showed up to the game in the 4th.

I'm glad West thinks he sucked. He strikes me as the type of guy that probably holds himself to a really high standard, wouldn't you agree with that?

Eleazar
11-01-2012, 02:29 PM
Huh? He outplayed Bargnani in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, just because he didn't play well or up to his own standards does not mean that he didn't disprove the idea that "Bargnani was owning" him or as Vnzla put it so eloquently, he was pretty sure that he "saw West ironing Bargnani's shirt at some point on the sideline" unless Vnzla was talking specifically about the first substitution in the first quarter I'd say he is making an incorrect statement at any other point in the game.

Stop confusing what I have said with what others have said. I do not represent their view point. I brought a different view point that disagreed with both of you. I was just trying to say reality was somewhere in between both of your radicalisms.

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:31 PM
Stop confusing what I have said with what others have said. I do not represent their view point. I brought a different view point that disagreed with both of you. I was just trying to say reality was somewhere in between both of your radicalisms.

I am being radical? In what way? By saying he outplayed Bargnani in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters when they were head to head? Please explain to me how this is a radical viewpoint.

spazzxb
11-01-2012, 02:33 PM
Go back and watch the game, it's the only thing I'm going to tell you, West said it himself, that he sucked in the first half, Tyler was put in for West for a reason.

You just enjoy complaining. Negativity is just your thing, it's cool, own it.:-)

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:37 PM
I don't bash him, I try to bring people down to earth when they overrated the crap out of the guy, way different, I have done the same thing with different players before not just him, I did the same with DC last year and I was a "DC hater" until people started to come to my side.

Where am I overrating West? By saying he outplayed Bargnani for 3 out of 4 quarters, but was still not that great of a night for him til he hit the 4th? Whoa ho ho ho, stop the presses, "Trader Joe declares David West will be first team all NBA by suggesting that he outplayed a one trick pony power forward in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarter of what TJ himself admits was largely a suck fest!"

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 02:42 PM
I'm speaking in complete generalizations so don't get too hung up on my statements, but generally speaking I do think the board has a slightly higher opinion of West then I do, but at the same time it's feels like you are trying to overcompensate their slightly higher opinion of West with an overly negative view of him...

It sounds negative but is not, just because I say that he is not a top 10 power forward or even top 5 as many think here doesn't mean that I hate him, just because I don't think that he needs to be re-signed as the starting power forward for the next 3/4/5 years doesn't mean that I hate him, just because I think that his lack of defense and rebounding is never going to help the Pacers to win a championship doesn't mean that I hate him, I would like to re-signing him but as a backup, I like what he brings but as a backup, were his lack of rebounding and defense doesn't affect the team as much.

I have seen people here almost crying at the thought of the Pacers not re-signing him because "he is the Pacers MVP", so they should at least give him a 4 years contract because "his game is old school so he is going to be able to play the same way forever", you might see my comments as negative, I can't deny that comments like the ones I'm showing you grind my gears and sometimes my responses don't come out right but I think sometimes the true is needed in this forum so we don't become "indy corn rows" or "Pacers.com" were only "Pacers lovers" can voice their opinion. ;)

Really?
11-01-2012, 02:43 PM
Bench really struggled

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:45 PM
Vnzla, nobody had used your name, the name West, or the word hate in the same post until you did it earlier. No one has said you are hating on West. I think we are both offering different viewpoints about what happened. So quit whining and acting like such a victim. It's called a discussion.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 02:50 PM
Vnzla, nobody had used your name, the name West, or the word hate in the same post until you did it earlier. No one has said you are hating on West. I think we are both offering different viewpoints about what happened. So quit whining and acting like such a victim. It's called a discussion.

Well I was told that "I'm really negative towards West" so I was explaining why I am supposed to be negative, I'm not acting like the victim.

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 02:53 PM
Well I was told that "I'm really negative towards West" so I was explaining why I am supposed to be negative, I'm not acting like the victim.

You are negative towards West man, it's fine. Because you can have a negative and positive opinion on someone it's not a big deal. I don't think you have this position because you're hating on West as you suggest earlier, that is what bugs me. I am just disagreeing with you. It's not like West dropped 20 in every quarter last night so it makes sense for people to have differing opinions.

gummy
11-01-2012, 03:49 PM
Great win overall, a lot of ugly basketball, lets hope Vogel learns that the second unit needs to have a different offense and lets hope that those Mahinmi post ups are a thing of the past becuase they don't work.

Eh. I don't think it's a good idea to scrap anything after 1 game. If it has been working in practice and/or the preseason they should stick with it for a little while to see if Ian can make it work in a game time situation. The same thing happened with Danny last year. Early on some people were complaining about him being put down on the block for a few plays per game because he wasn't able to convert. But after a couple of weeks he started hitting those shots and he is now able to reliably score out of a post-up a few times a game.

Growth takes time. Things you learn in practice don't automatically translate to real games for most players. Now if at the end of December it still isn't working, I'll complain. But Vogel will likely have made an adjustment before then if necessary.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 03:54 PM
Eh. I don't think it's a good idea to scrap anything after 1 game. If it has been working in practice and/or the preseason they should stick with it for a little while to see if Ian can make it work in a game time situation. The same thing happened with Danny last year. Early on some people were complaining about him being put down on the block for a few plays per game because he wasn't able to convert. But after a couple of weeks he started hitting those shots and he is now able to reliably score out of a post-up a few times a game.

Growth takes time. Things you learn in practice don't automatically translate to real games for most players. Now if at the end of December it still isn't working, I'll complain. But Vogel will likely have made an adjustment before then if necessary.

I'm not judging him for one game, my point is that Mahinmi is not Roy Hibbert, Ian hands are not that great and he is not a good passer like Roy, you can't play the same offense.

gummy
11-01-2012, 04:00 PM
I'm not judging him for one game, my point is that Mahinmi is not Roy Hibbert, Ian hands are not that great and he is not a good passer like Roy, you can't play the same offense.

Yes, we probably can't run it exactly the same way. But I do want to see him continue to get some experimental touches down on the block.

I guess I don't have a problem with it (in the short-term) because I pretty much trust our coaching staff. If we continue to give him touches on the block it's most likely because they are seeing something in practice than I am not. I can give them time to work it out.