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Anthem
10-31-2012, 09:30 PM
All I have to say is this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1189337/Whoops.png

Trophy
10-31-2012, 09:30 PM
David West! David West! David West!

I will gladly take this win!

tomkat1971
10-31-2012, 09:32 PM
Not one of our prettier ones but Im not giving it back either.

TheDavisBrothers
10-31-2012, 09:32 PM
David "BAD A$S MO FO" West!!!!!!!! 14 huge points to carry us in the 4th

daschysta
10-31-2012, 09:33 PM
THAT is how you close a game, David West.

Pace Maker
10-31-2012, 09:33 PM
All those times we looked great for the majority of the game against a more talented team only for them to overcome us with talent and poise in the 4th...It feels pretty nice to be on the other side of that.

Anthem
10-31-2012, 09:33 PM
Really interesting game. Not a great showing from our offseason pickups... Ian, Green, and DJ were all pretty bad. Luckily our savvy vets made up for it. Paul George definitely improved his game, the other guys (West/Roy/Hill) looked about the same as they did at the end of the season. Tyler and Lance both improved, though.

I'll take the win, and hope the new guys settle down soon.

Really hoping for some good news from Danny.

Pacergeek
10-31-2012, 09:33 PM
West and Roy will be representing the Pacers in the all-star game

Mr_Smith
10-31-2012, 09:34 PM
Frustrating 3rd quarter which caused the overreactions (myself included), but they stayed within striking distance and got the W.

PaceBalls
10-31-2012, 09:34 PM
What a great game to start the season! All the /wrist posts in the game thread during the 3rd quarter made it even sweeter.

David West, holymoly... What a 4th quarter performance! He was in beast mode out there, unstoppable. Totally carried the team to victory, that was just awesome to watch.

Hell yea, Pacers basketball is back again!
:dance:

Trophy
10-31-2012, 09:35 PM
Putting aside the 5 TOs, PG had a monster game. 15 rebounds!

Great comeback and DWest really showed why he's a major leader on this team.

graphic-er
10-31-2012, 09:36 PM
Toronto actually went away from what got them the lead in the 3rd. JV sat on the bench with 4 fouls, and then when they finally put him back in they did not run anything with him.

xBulletproof
10-31-2012, 09:36 PM
Paul George turned down the cuteness. He passed fairly well, despite the turnovers. He's learning, and that's encouraging.

I know that felt good for West, because Bargnani was pissing him off all game.

Dr. Awesome
10-31-2012, 09:38 PM
Probably the ugliest win I think I've ever seen the Pacers get. I think that actually shows how far this team has come - that would not have been a win in the past 5-6 years.

Still some concerns, but the win is pretty sweet right now.

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 09:39 PM
We were so much more talented than Toronto it wasn't even funny, they made every big 3 up until the last 4 minutes and we played like a pile of poo for most of the game. Hopefully the Charlotte game is a little smoother. I hope Hill doesn't get scared off by the pain and sit out, he is so big for us at the end of close games. Lowry was playing like a spazz looking for a foul every time and Hill played like the guy who has played for winning teams. We need that.

Psyren
10-31-2012, 09:42 PM
Great job by West as usual.

Extremely sloppy, but glad to take home a W.

Trophy
10-31-2012, 09:46 PM
Toronto is a much improved team, no doubt. They'll be competing all season long.

It was a battle out there, but we kept our heads up and won.

Johanvil
10-31-2012, 09:46 PM
Great win no doubt especially if you consider the shape the game had taken during the 3rd quarter and the start of the 4th.Hopefully for us West went into beast mode in the 4th and got us the win.Paul George and Roy were really dominant in the first half but here comes my complaint:At the end of the first half Paul had 12 points and Roy 14.Both ended the match at 14 points.I mean come on.You can't have your best players stuck at the same tally for a whole half.You should feed them more.Finally Vogel's rotations.I know it's the first game of the season and it's gonna be a long one but we can't afford having almost the whole bench in the game for so long.There has to be at least 2 of the starting five each time.Today was just George with the bench.
Anyway,enjoyed the win and the way we achieved it.Roll on Friday for the game against Charlotte.

rel
10-31-2012, 09:46 PM
Awesome comeback. All the starters sans Gerald had a solid game.

I honestly can't even explain how bad Gerald looked out there tonight...

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 09:47 PM
Probably the ugliest win I think I've ever seen the Pacers get. I think that actually shows how far this team has come - that would not have been a win in the past 5-6 years.

Still some concerns, but the win is pretty sweet right now.

Yeah but a couple things

1.) Good teams close and good teams make their own luck, by fighting for the board, Green put the refs in a tough spot and it was mch closer than it looked at full speed.

2.) Road wins in the NBA are golden, the Pacers were 19-14 last year and had I believe the best road record in the East. You get them however you can.

Yeah it was ugly, yeah I was fuming the 3rd, but really good teams win games like this. The Lakers couldn't do it last night and they were at home, so I can't discount us too much. I hope Friday will be more like the 4th was tonight.

PacersPride
10-31-2012, 09:47 PM
DWest and Hill carried us this game. i have concerns with Hill sustaining this 82 games a season at point.

great win for the Pacers.. tough to win a home opener no matter who the opponent.

* i remember a few seasons ago when we beat the Celtics

Heisenberg
10-31-2012, 09:49 PM
remember when Hill was a good on ball defender? Lowry's a nice player, but he ate Hill's lunch tonight

cdash
10-31-2012, 09:50 PM
I'll take the win.

Quick thoughts:

Green was bad. Only can go up from here.
The team was sloppy with the ball--must take better care of the rock if you want to beat good teams.
West and Hill came through when it mattered. Those guys are winners.
Augustin was not impressive, and his reputation for being one of the league's worst finishers around the rim certainly wasn't a lie tonight.
Roy and PG looked solid.
Hill doesn't look like he's 100% healthy yet.
Mahinmi needs some pine tar on his hands.

All in all, a win is a win. Toronto crapped themselves and our guys have been through battles. Just what good teams do.

Ace E.Anderson
10-31-2012, 09:51 PM
remember when Hill was a good on ball defender? Lowry's a nice player, but he ate Hill's lunch tonight

Hill was obviously still hurting

Trophy
10-31-2012, 09:51 PM
Awesome comeback. All the starters sans Gerald had a solid game.

I honestly can't even explain how bad Gerald looked out there tonight...

It seemed he just had the jitters and should gradually get back to himself and be able to get back to himself: score, create shots, and pass better as the games go on.

He was asked to play a big and unexpected role with Danny being out.

vnzla81
10-31-2012, 09:52 PM
remember when Hill was a good on ball defender? Lowry's a nice player, but he ate Hill's lunch tonight

Now who is unhappy? :-)

Hill hit the last second shot so we are supposed to forget all that ;)

D-BONE
10-31-2012, 09:53 PM
Three FA pickups looked like a big pile of dung tonight.

BlueNGold
10-31-2012, 09:54 PM
Toronto is a little better and a little more physical. But we took them lightly too for part of the game.

vnzla81
10-31-2012, 09:56 PM
Three FA pickups looked like a big pile of dung tonight.

:spitout:

Trophy
10-31-2012, 09:57 PM
Three FA pickups looked like a big pile of dung tonight.

As far as Ian goes, he reminds me of Jeff Foster in a way. He does the little things, but doesn't light it up with his scoring. Guys were trying to get him the ball in tough situations.

DJ and Gerald can only learn from this, be more assertive, move on and play like themselves. A lot of jitters.

MyFavMartin
10-31-2012, 09:58 PM
remember when Hill was a good on ball defender? Lowry's a nice player, but he ate Hill's lunch tonight

Bad wheel

BlueCollarColts
10-31-2012, 10:00 PM
Putting aside the 5 TOs, PG had a monster game. 15 rebounds!

Great comeback and DWest really showed why he's a major leader on this team.
he was young and had more freedom as he gets used to that freedom he will turn it over less, I know he had only 14 points, but he did get other people open shots, I saw him create baskets for others multiple times

Miller_time04
10-31-2012, 10:01 PM
West was HUGE! It's only the first game of the season we will improve. Gerald had a bad game yeah but he hasn't been practicing with the starters, he will get better. I'll take the win, I look for next game to be a lot more smoother. Hope hill feels okay tomorrow.

MyFavMartin
10-31-2012, 10:01 PM
Dj ran the offense well for the second unit.

imawhat
10-31-2012, 10:01 PM
Paul George: 15 shots, zero three point attempts. Awesome. Oh, and 15 boards.

duke dynamite
10-31-2012, 10:02 PM
This game took a year or two off my life. 81 more to go.

Anthem
10-31-2012, 10:02 PM
Looks like the other thread has become the official one. Can a mod merge the threads please?

rock747
10-31-2012, 10:04 PM
All the new guys were less than impressive to say the least. Hopefully that changes going forward! West willed the Pacers to a win tonight.

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 10:04 PM
Important poll for my fellow Pacer fans, should I make a victory pizza? Beer in my belly says yes, my physical fitness says no. You guys are the deciding factor.

aamcguy
10-31-2012, 10:06 PM
Important poll for my fellow Pacer fans, should I make a victory pizza? Beer in my belly says yes, my physical fitness says no. You guys are the deciding factor.

I love pizza.

Anthem
10-31-2012, 10:07 PM
Important poll for my fellow Pacer fans, should I make a victory pizza? Beer in my belly says yes, my physical fitness says no. You guys are the deciding factor.
What goes on a victory pizza?

MyFavMartin
10-31-2012, 10:07 PM
Eat healthy.

Lots of veggies on the pizza ;)

Gives excuse to eat more. Haha

TheDon
10-31-2012, 10:08 PM
George Hill on that last play: "I'm goin rover coach"

Vogel: "Do not go rover George Hill stick with the play!"

MyFavMartin
10-31-2012, 10:09 PM
Roy needs to learn from DWest and study the 4th quarter.

Ace E.Anderson
10-31-2012, 10:09 PM
For comparisons sake, the spurs are struggling to beat the Hornets in NO.

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 10:10 PM
What goes on a victory pizza?

Frozen California Pizza Kitchen Sicilian Style Pizza is the pizza in question.

cdash
10-31-2012, 10:10 PM
Important poll for my fellow Pacer fans, should I make a victory pizza? Beer in my belly says yes, my physical fitness says no. You guys are the deciding factor.

Pacers win. Do you. Eat that pizza.

aamcguy
10-31-2012, 10:11 PM
For comparisons sake, the spurs are struggling to beat the Hornets in NO.

The Raptors' house was bouncin', that's for sure. Always rough to play against jump shooting teams who start hot in an environment like that.

graphic-er
10-31-2012, 10:11 PM
Frozen California Pizza Kitchen Sicilian Style Pizza is the pizza in question.

Thin crust, ready in 12 minutes. Go for that ****!

rock747
10-31-2012, 10:12 PM
The new guys accounted for 12 of the Pacer's 18 turnovers

graphic-er
10-31-2012, 10:15 PM
The new guys accounted for 12 of the Pacer's 18 turnovers

Hoping i'm wrong and its just growing pain from being on a winning team finally, but it makes you wonder about taking promising players from the worst teams in the league. They used to losing?

Justin Tyme
10-31-2012, 10:16 PM
We won that's all that can be said about the overall game. In years past, the Pacers would have folded, so it was a nice win. Hopefully, the next game against the Puddycats will be better, especially for DJ, GG, and IM. I wasn't impressed with any of their games.

Pacers only shot 11 3PT and 16 FT. They need to get to the foul line more, and then hit the FT for more than 67%. Still a comeback from behind win which is a good way to start the season off.

Trophy
10-31-2012, 10:18 PM
The new guys simply didn't look comfortable out there and things should absolutely turn around as the season progresses. Especially for Green.

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 10:19 PM
Operation Victory Pizza Eagle is underway.

Sparhawk
10-31-2012, 10:25 PM
Great comeback win. Shows how good this team is when they can play bad and still come away with the win.

Even last year, something goes off in West and he just goes bananas in the 4th.

Need to work on boxing out to prevent OBoards. This was an issue last year too. Really had hoped Vogel focused on this.
Need to get the TOs down. That's mostly on the players.

Lance with 0TOs and a three made. Encouraging.

I said it last year and I'll say it again, PG is the best rebounding sg in the league.

Eleazar
10-31-2012, 10:29 PM
I would like to see Young be given the starting spot, he was really solid and I think makes the bench and rotations more balance.

Sparhawk
10-31-2012, 10:31 PM
I would like to see Young be given the starting spot, he was really solid and I think makes the bench and rotations more balance.

I think Green and PG in the lineup together can be very dynamic. I hope Vogel sticks with Green for at least another game or two. I can see the benefits of Young starting and Greens scoring with the 2nd unit.

CableKC
10-31-2012, 10:36 PM
This game took a year or two off my life. 81 more to go.
Hey....Duke is back.

MyFavMartin
10-31-2012, 10:37 PM
I think I really liked what I saw in PG, want GH healthy, and DG fully healthy., even that takees a while. and i wont be surprised if Sam Young starts for Green.

vnzla81
10-31-2012, 10:38 PM
Vogel needs to fix that offense by the way, no excuses this year.

Noodle
10-31-2012, 10:39 PM
The new guys simply didn't look comfortable out there and things should absolutely turn around as the season progresses. Especially for Green.

Yeah, Green turned the ball over alot and only made a couple 3's, but his defense looked promising. I believe once things settle down he will be better for us. He shut Landry down, with help from George. 0-6 0 points. He gave Derozan fits too, with help. Guy played his role, and didn't try to do too much. Says more for him than the guy he replaced. Plus, he made the effort on the play that gave the ball back with 22 seconds left.

It's easy to see why people aren't impressed, but it wasn't that bad really.

Augustine is Augustine.

Ian played well. He is really fast, strong and skilled. Like Cdash said, get that man some tar for his hands.

Ian and Green looked like they belonged despite poor showing on paper. It was Stevenson who made me almost break my remote. Why oh why did Vogel leave him in the friggin' game for so long, geesh.

CableKC
10-31-2012, 10:41 PM
Important poll for my fellow Pacer fans, should I make a victory pizza? Beer in my belly says yes, my physical fitness says no. You guys are the deciding factor.
When your belly starts talking to you, you have to drown it in pizza.....the best tasting pizza there is....victory pizza after a Pacer game.

But when you go to the doctors and they see that your cholesterol is much higher than normal......you can blame the Pacers.

CableKC
10-31-2012, 10:42 PM
I think I really liked what I saw in PG, want GH healthy, and DG fully healthy., even that takees a while. and i wont be surprised if Sam Young starts for Green.
I think that he's a better fit....you need a role Player in a lineup comprise mainly of scorers. I have no problem pushing Green back to the 2nd unit while mixing him in with the 1st unit. It's not because of how Green did this game....it's more that you need scorers in the 2nd unit.

Noodle
10-31-2012, 10:44 PM
Vogel needs to fix that offense by the way, no excuses this year.

48% from the floor against a hard nosed team. 22 assists. Only 11 threes attempted. We fed the hot hand. Lots of good play calls. Yes, plays. What are you hating on now?

vnzla81
10-31-2012, 10:48 PM
48% from the floor against a hard nosed team. 22 assists. Only 11 threes attempted. We fed the hot hand. Lots of good play calls. Yes, plays. What are you hating on now?

:unimpress:

aamcguy
10-31-2012, 10:49 PM
Ian and Green looked like they belonged despite poor showing on paper. It was Stevenson who made me almost break my remote. Why oh why did Vogel leave him in the friggin' game for so long, geesh.

Stephenson shot 2/3 for 5 points, added 4 rebounds, and played decent defense. He had no TOs. What about him made you angry? That he was seeing the floor?

tfarks
10-31-2012, 10:51 PM
I couldn't watch the game until the 3rd. The comeback really hyped me up for this season. I don't even wanna get into analysis yet, plenty of time for that.

funnyguy1105
10-31-2012, 10:51 PM
48% from the floor against a hard nosed team. 22 assists. Only 11 threes attempted. We fed the hot hand. Lots of good play calls. Yes, plays. What are you hating on now?

18 TO's?

Noodle
10-31-2012, 10:51 PM
Vnzla, let me re-phrase. What are you talking about?

Basketball Fan
10-31-2012, 10:52 PM
I caught the end of the game (night class on Wednesdays) who knew David West would become such a leader? I never was under that impression when he was with the Hornets.

Can't really comment on much else except I really thought Hill was going to blow it at the end.

Noodle
10-31-2012, 10:55 PM
Stephenson shot 2/3 for 5 points, added 4 rebounds, and played decent defense. He had no TOs. What about him made you angry? That he was seeing the floor?

Rotation on defense. He was burned with poor rotation several times. The guy has skills, but zero basketball IQ.

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 10:56 PM
Victory pizza was great success.

vnzla81
10-31-2012, 10:59 PM
@RedsArmy_John: Jeff Green would like to thank the Raptors & DeMar DeRozan for redirecting the "they have him HOW much?" conversation

Anthem
10-31-2012, 11:03 PM
It was Stevenson who made me almost break my remote. Why oh why did Vogel leave him in the friggin' game for so long, geesh.
Really? I thought he looked much improved, on both offense and defense.

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 11:03 PM
I thought Stephenson looked better, he didn't stick out like a sore thumb when on the court.

beast23
10-31-2012, 11:07 PM
Roy needs to learn from DWest and study the 4th quarter.

It's more than that. West doesn't have to talk about it. He simply welcomes the moment and relishes in it. Quiet leaders don't have to talk about it; they just do what they do. They lead when others need to be led.

I was pleased with George's overall STATS, well except for his turnovers. 15 RBs is exceptional. BUT, we need more from him offensively, especially while Danny is out. We need for him to find quality opportunities that will lead to 6-7 points per quarter. Tonight, he started out great to the tune of something like 10 points or so in the first 8-9 minutes, then not much for the rest of the game. We are going to need more, especially against a quality opponent.

Much the same can be said for Hibbert. We need 6-7 points a quarter from him while Danny is out.

We will get production from West, probably on a pretty consistent basis because he is able to put the team on his back in crunch time... At least as long as we have decent movement in our offense. I really think West will get his 18-20 while Danny is out, and will probably provide his scoring when we need it the most.

I realize that 6-7 points per quarter is asking a lot from George and Hibbert, but that is what we need to be successful. If not 45 points a game from them, then let's hope that Hill and/or Green can step up when either of George or Hibbert falls short.

MyFavMartin
10-31-2012, 11:07 PM
I think that he's a better fit....you need a role Player in a lineup comprise mainly of scorers. I have no problem pushing Green back to the 2nd unit while mixing him in with the 1st unit. It's not because of how Green did this game....it's more that you need scorers in the 2nd unit.

lil buddy-

that's what I was talkin' about.

willis

aamcguy
10-31-2012, 11:07 PM
Plus, Lance had our only basket for about the first 5 minutes of the 2nd quarter. He may have missed some rotations, but he wasn't as bad as you iniitally made it seem I don't think.

What I didn't like was that Hibbert was a nonfactor in the second half. PG remained proactive, especially in the fourth quarter when he became David West's personal distributor. But Hibbert was completely shut down.

colts19
10-31-2012, 11:11 PM
Just to point out a few things. Other than the big four, Hibbert, west, hill and PG. this is what the rest of the team did. 9/22 fg's. 7/9 ft, 18 rbs, 6 assist, 12 turnovers. Total of 29 points.Except for the low number of assist, (I'm looking at you DJ) and the high number of turnovers ( 6 G. Green)this is not a bad stat line. Remember, bench players normally play much better at home that they do on the road. So make of this what you will.

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 11:12 PM
Also, random tangent on the Raptors, Landry Fields sucks really bad. And DeRozan played 27 minutes and only had one foul. A shooting guard who are you are planning on paying 40 million bucks only played 27 minutes in the opening game of the season and didn't have foul trouble? Probably a red flag there Toronto.

CableKC
10-31-2012, 11:15 PM
lil buddy-

that's what I was talkin' about.

willis
As long as we're on the same page.....:buddies:

D0NT SH0OT ME
10-31-2012, 11:25 PM
Vnzla, let me re-phrase. What are you talking about?


He doesn't know. He's just so dead set on being a pessimist that he makes up random complaints when he doesn't have any valid ones.

mousewilliams999
10-31-2012, 11:26 PM
I missed the game, how did Hans look?

D0NT SH0OT ME
10-31-2012, 11:28 PM
I missed the game, how did Hans look?

Better than most of last year. Didn't shoot a great percentage but also didn't force much. He did a good job getting to the line per usual.

clownskull
10-31-2012, 11:28 PM
ultimately, i am pleased. sure, there were turnovers, but this WAS the 1st game of the season. i am willing to accept some inconsistency in that dept as the squad adjusts to playing real games again. i expect there will be some rough spots.
but- this team battled all game long and never quit. i am proud of the effort.
any win on the road is good in my book and we did win. so, i will take it.

Noodle
10-31-2012, 11:29 PM
Plus, Lance had our only basket for about the first 5 minutes of the 2nd quarter. He may have missed some rotations, but he wasn't as bad as you iniitally made it seem I don't think.

What I didn't like was that Hibbert was a nonfactor in the second half. PG remained proactive, especially in the fourth quarter when he became David West's personal distributor. But Hibbert was completely shut down.

I simply do not see any improvement. When Danny returns it is likely the coaches see what I see, and Stevenson doesn't get much playing time due to his liabilities.

It wasn't his best outing or his worse, it was actually a decent one for him. So, yeah, I exaggerate a little, but it doesn't change the fact that he mentally weak in terms of learning from his mistakes. It is a road block for him. I want Stevenson to be better, but he is a fundamental mess, still. It's just not there. Hopefully one day he will reach his obvious potential.

To me, he had a marginally good game on paper, and looked like the same guy who is realizing he is a role player. Not some bench player who's job is to be a 6'5" Allen Iverson. This is good for Stephenson moving forward, but the guy isn't ready still. I still believe he harms this team when he is on the floor.

BTW, D West had me livid too at one point for the same exact thing, but unlike Stevenson, he scored and provided toughness down the stretch when it counted.

Trader Joe
10-31-2012, 11:32 PM
Tyler Hansbrough had an assist tonight. I almost can't believe it. An assist in the season opener?

Day-V
10-31-2012, 11:36 PM
David West is a friggin' MAN!

vnzla81
10-31-2012, 11:37 PM
Tyler Hansbrough had an assist tonight. I almost can't believe it. An assist in the season opener?

Seth is not going to be able to complain for a while now :)

Anthem
10-31-2012, 11:41 PM
But Hibbert was completely shut down.
I don't think that's fair. Hibbert sat for a good while, then when he and West came in we went to West every time (with good results).

Hibbert didn't miss any shots in that final run, we just didn't go to him.

docpaul
10-31-2012, 11:41 PM
For those of us who accept Hansbrough and Stephenson as 2nd team / bench players, we generally see the positive of their contributions to the team.

For those of us who still expect them to be starting calibre players, they can do little right.

Both contributed quite well given their role in the game's flow tonight. I liked the action with Stephenson / Lowry. Hill and Augustin had nothing for Lowry.

(still think Lowry would be an excellent starting PG for this team)

To me, the two positive things that stood out in this game were the dimes from George/Hibbert (that needs to start becoming a bigger part of our game)... and the multiple, strong defensive stops in the last 6-7 minutes of the game.

It's still weird to see 15 rebounds out of our SG.

daschysta
10-31-2012, 11:42 PM
It's more than that. West doesn't have to talk about it. He simply welcomes the moment and relishes in it. Quiet leaders don't have to talk about it; they just do what they do. They lead when others need to be led.

I was pleased with George's overall STATS, well except for his turnovers. 15 RBs is exceptional. BUT, we need more from him offensively, especially while Danny is out. We need for him to find quality opportunities that will lead to 6-7 points per quarter. Tonight, he started out great to the tune of something like 10 points or so in the first 8-9 minutes, then not much for the rest of the game. We are going to need more, especially against a quality opponent.

Much the same can be said for Hibbert. We need 6-7 points a quarter from him while Danny is out.

We will get production from West, probably on a pretty consistent basis because he is able to put the team on his back in crunch time... At least as long as we have decent movement in our offense. I really think West will get his 18-20 while Danny is out, and will probably provide his scoring when we need it the most.

I realize that 6-7 points per quarter is asking a lot from George and Hibbert, but that is what we need to be successful. If not 45 points a game from them, then let's hope that Hill and/or Green can step up when either of George or Hibbert falls short.


So only 24-28 points for each of them, no big deal...

aamcguy
10-31-2012, 11:45 PM
I simply do not see any improvement. When Danny returns it is likely the coaches see what I see, and Stevenson doesn't get much playing time due to his liabilities.

It wasn't his best outing or his worse, it was actually a decent one for him. So, yeah, I exaggerate a little, but it doesn't change the fact that he mentally weak in terms of learning from his mistakes. It is a road block for him. I want Stevenson to be better, but he is a fundamental mess, still. It's just not there. Hopefully one day he will reach his obvious potential.

To me, he had a marginally good game on paper, and looked like the same guy who is realizing he is a role player. Not some bench player who's job is to be a 6'5" Allen Iverson. This is good for Stephenson moving forward, but the guy isn't ready still. I still believe he harms this team when he is on the floor.

BTW, D West had me livid too at one point for the same exact thing, but unlike Stevenson, he scored and provided toughness down the stretch when it counted.


So yes, you were just angry he was seeing the floor? ;)

Honestly, I saw exactly the things you said you didn't see from him. He showed little hesitation, and when he got stopped he quickly looked for a ballhandler. He looked to penetrate but didn't force anything. Most importantly, for the first time in a meaningful game he stayed involved in the game as a SG. In the past he would go stand in a corner before running back on defense. But he stayed in the game.

Just my opinion. But I'm guessing we're gonna disagree because you seem like you would rather him not be on the Pacers.

boombaby1987
10-31-2012, 11:48 PM
How does George Hill's Clutch shot not make the Top 10? SMH.

aamcguy
10-31-2012, 11:48 PM
I don't think that's fair. Hibbert sat for a good while, then when he and West came in we went to West every time (with good results).

Hibbert didn't miss any shots in that final run, we just didn't go to him.

Yeah, the fourth quarter I don't think there was anything wrong with.

But in the third quarter he was putting off some off balance shots and it seemed to get in his head. He just wasn't the force he was in the first half. I actually think he scored all 14 of his points in the first half?

Noodle
10-31-2012, 11:50 PM
So yes, you were just angry he was seeing the floor? ;)

Honestly, I saw exactly the things you said you didn't see from him. He showed little hesitation, and when he got stopped he quickly looked for a ballhandler. He looked to penetrate but didn't force anything. Most importantly, for the first time in a meaningful game he stayed involved in the game as a SG. In the past he would go stand in a corner before running back on defense. But he stayed in the game.

Just my opinion. But I'm guessing we're gonna disagree because you seem like you would rather him not be on the Pacers.

Dude, it's not emotional to me at all. I want Stephenson to reach his potential. It is a constant disappointment to see it is still not there. I really hope the guy serves me a huge plate of crow one day. I would prefer it to be in a Pacers uniform as well.

Sollozzo
11-01-2012, 12:06 AM
Seems like we waited until rather late in the fourth to bring Roy back in the game.

mattie
11-01-2012, 12:23 AM
Rewatching the game.

First note: Ian Mihinmi should be the first big off the bench. No matter what the situation.

And you can't say it isn't possible because the rotation is identical to the 90's Pacers. We have a center who can't play a lot of minutes and West/Davis played similar minutes. AD came in no matter who had to come out. Ian should too.

mattie
11-01-2012, 12:28 AM
Vogel does a lot of things well, but also makes some huge mistakes with rotations. He needs to figure this out or he'll stunt the growth of the team.

second point: PG scored 10 points early, which means he only scored 4 through the rest of the 3 quarters. That's bad. :( But I'm not too worried.

mattie
11-01-2012, 12:29 AM
Third point: PG's footwork on defense looks incredible. In his first two seasons he used his athletic ability to make up for the times he was shook. (which isn't a bad thing) Too early to tell but if he moves his feet like that he's going to be incredible on D this season.

mattie
11-01-2012, 12:34 AM
Nice aggressive drive by PG, not getting the call that all the other slashers in the league get. 3rd year in the league he should be getting that now...

ChicagoJ
11-01-2012, 12:36 AM
I think its funny that all summer long everyone frets over David West... his contract, his knee, lack of upside, whatever. This guy is the real deal during the season though. I've rolled my eyes and moved along when I've seen that offseason nonsense, but who wants to complain about him tonight?

Is my math right... West and Hill combined for 20 in the fourth?

Nice start with a gritty road win. I'm more concerned with this team's ability to win gritty games than to blow people out.

mattie
11-01-2012, 12:43 AM
I like West. Awesome dude. But no matter how well he does on the offensive side of the court, he doesn't rebound or defend. That's extremely frustrating especially from a Big. I'd rather have all defense and rebounding and make up for the offense else where honestly.

pizza guy
11-01-2012, 12:47 AM
Just finished watching the game. Stupid, sloppy 3rd quarter where Toronto obviously out-hustled us everywhere. Those things happen, so as the better team, you have to stay focused and chip away at the deficit and pull out the tough win - and that's what we did.

A couple thoughts, player-by-player:

Roy looked good. He has gotten smarter, stronger, and more polished. Would like to see some points scored in the second half, but his defense was solid throughout. He's going to earn that contract.

Paul George is very close. This time without Danny is going to really propel Paul into the spotlight, and I think he will grow into it. The first half, the way he came out and handled himself, I was impressed. Give him a little time to get more accustomed to that role, and I think he's going to become what we're hoping for. His demeanor and presence on the court has changed, and the more time he gets in this role, the better. (That said, Paul's growth plus Danny's return will be a slight bump in the road, but will make this team GOOOODD)

David West.

Hope George Hill is not in too much pain and can continue to play. The game-winner is a perfect example of the type of coolness and clutch play that he brings. He's not flashy, but he is good.

Hansbrough looked better. More in control, more like a decent back-up big. Mahinmi should be the first big off the bench, though. But we shouldn't try to run the offense through him like he's Roy. DJ had his ups and downs. I saw the good vision, but I also saw the same kind of out of control play that drove us nuts about Collison. The bench as a whole looked like they had never practiced together or run plays. Out of control and sloppy. Frank has to fix that soon if we want our bench to be a strength. I thought they started to play a little better as the game went on.

Lance... jury is still out. I want to give him time. He at least looked like he had a place on the court. But how long do we give him to learn the game and catch up to the speed of the NBA? Like I said, I am willing to give him time this season as the whole bench learns to play together.

Gritty, ugly, shoulda-been-easier win. On the road, to open the season, against a hungry young team wanting to prove they belong in the playoff hunt, without our leading scorer, and a point guard still not 100%. One and OH! Let's build on it.

And oh yeah,

DAVID WEST

ECKrueger
11-01-2012, 12:48 AM
I like West. Awesome dude. But no matter how well he does on the offensive side of the court, he doesn't rebound or defend. That's extremely frustrating especially from a Big. I'd rather have all defense and rebounding and make up for the offense else where honestly.

While ideally he would play D better, I can live with it. Who else would've scored 14 in the 4th? On the other hand, a lot of guys can step up their D.

Basically: West is about the only guy who can take over on offense while we have several good defenders.

mattie
11-01-2012, 12:54 AM
While ideally he would play D better, I can live with it. Who else would've scored 14 in the 4th? On the other hand, a lot of guys can step up their D.

Basically: West is about the only guy who can take over on offense while we have several good defenders.

I'm not saying you're wrong. It's just a personal belief.

I believe defense can overcome offense. I mean by a little bit. What I'm saying is because the Pacers don't have LBJ, Durant, Dirk etc, they can't possibly EVER have an elite offense. However, with the right personal, they can have an ELITE defense, to go along with a pretty good offense. Basically, if they have an elite defense theoretically they could beat the best. I want to see that. As long as West is at the 4 that will never happen. (unless Thibbs was here, he could cover up West. I mean **** he can cover up Boozer)

ChicagoJ
11-01-2012, 01:03 AM
I'd rather have all defense and rebounding and make up for the offense else where honestly.\

Its all opinion but I don't agree with that at all. Take away your best offensive player... (And by best, I mean he and Hill have been the only two good offensive players in the fourth quarter since they arrived, and they were brought here because we previously didn't have anyone that could play offense in the fourth quarter.) Replace him with a defensive/ rebounding banger... we'd have been outscored in the 4Q tonight 15-12 instead of winning the fourth quarter 27-17 in that scenario.

But I'm more concerned with team defense and team rebounding. Unless we actually know the game plans, our speculation of who's playing good team defense or filling their rebounding roles is just speculation anyway. So i don't concern myself much with an evaluation of individual defense or rebounding stats.

mattie
11-01-2012, 01:16 AM
\

Its all opinion but I don't agree with that at all. Take away your best offensive player... (And by best, I mean he and Hill have been the only two good offensive players in the fourth quarter since they arrived, and they were brought here because we previously didn't have anyone that could play offense in the fourth quarter.) Replace him with a defensive/ rebounding banger... we'd have been outscored in the 4Q tonight 15-12 instead of winning the fourth quarter 27-17 in that scenario.

But I'm more concerned with team defense and team rebounding. Unless we actually know the game plans, our speculation of who's playing good team defense or filling their rebounding roles is just speculation anyway. So i don't concern myself much with an evaluation of individual defense or rebounding stats.

Danny has actually been the best 4th quarter scorer. Easily.

A lot of the "West kicks *** in the 4th he's clutch" comes from some real nice shots he made early on when he got here. Since then the narrative won't die.

It's not necessarily bad either. West is a good scorer and a good option, whether it is the 1st or 4th quarter. Doesn't matter. But no Danny has consistently scored the most in the 4th for the Pacers. You can look it up on 82games.com

Edit - of course we dont know what would happen in any hypothetical situation, but the reasoning can be used to argue any point. I.e., maybe the Pacers wouldn't have outscored in the 4th their opponent, but then again, maybe they wouldn't have been down in the first place.

I'll try to find the numbers showing that defense has actually been slightly more important than offense. Zach Lowe I think just wrote about it, but i can't find the numbers.

Eddie Gill
11-01-2012, 01:22 AM
I was very impressed overall with how well the starters played as a unit - lots of quick, smart, extra passes, guys knowing where to find an open or cutting teammate. The second unit ground the game to a halt at times offensively, but thats to be expected for a couple games. I'd like to see a shorter leash for some of those guys, but it seems as if Frank is gonna stick with his egg timer and baptize these guys by fire (which I can live with). For as impressive as Paul George looked, I am concerned that he was largely MIA in the last 3 quarters offensively. He was all over the glass, and I thought he made nice passes despite the turnovers. If he can become more consistent we're in serious business. Same can be said for Hibbert as well. I'd like to see him be a little more assertive down the stretch. Roy is a very emotional player, and when things are going well for him he feeds off it. I wonder if some of his prolonged time on the bench disrupted that tonight.


Toronto is gonna be a fun team to watch when they're hot. Also, props to the Toronto fans - that sounded like a playoff atmosphere tonight.

yoadknux
11-01-2012, 01:31 AM
See? Green can easily replace Granger.

CableKC
11-01-2012, 02:27 AM
Rewatching the game.

First note: Ian Mihinmi should be the first big off the bench. No matter what the situation.

And you can't say it isn't possible because the rotation is identical to the 90's Pacers. We have a center who can't play a lot of minutes and West/Davis played similar minutes. AD came in no matter who had to come out. Ian should too.
Yeah, I agree with this. When West got that 2nd early foul.....Hans was the 1st Big to come in....and he was in for a long period of time after that. I don't see why Mahinmi can't be that 1st Big Man to sub in for whoever. I have always assumed that one of the reasons why Hans is the 1st PF to come in is because of his scoring....but I'd rather see more of Mahinmi / Hibbert in the frontcourt if West sits...or vice versa.

imbtyler
11-01-2012, 02:35 AM
See? Green can easily replace Granger.

Freezing up in the first (few) game(s) of the season? Yeh, sounds about right. Just wait until Green gets acclimated.

pacers74
11-01-2012, 05:47 AM
We won, so I will accept this as it is our first game, but PG and Big Roy need to be scoring more in the second half. They could have gone for close to 30 last night. Given that PG was a monster on the boards. Maybe if he played SF all the time he could average a double double every night.
Hopefully our bench gets better too.

pathil275
11-01-2012, 07:06 AM
Good comeback win and strong showings from West and Hill in the 2nd- and Paul and Roy in the 1st half. The bench unit was dismal, but they'll get there once they feel comfortable playing with each other. Quick question from someone who didn't watch the preseason or any Dallas games - is Mahinmi generally as bad a ballhandler? I thought he fumbled every pass which totally interrupted the offensive flow. But he played hard and is definitely a physical force out there, so I remain optimistic.

McKeyFan
11-01-2012, 07:41 AM
Vogel does a lot of things well, but also makes some huge mistakes with rotations. He needs to figure this out or he'll stunt the growth of the team.


Can you expand on this?

McKeyFan
11-01-2012, 07:45 AM
I like West. Awesome dude. But no matter how well he does on the offensive side of the court, he doesn't rebound or defend. That's extremely frustrating especially from a Big. I'd rather have all defense and rebounding and make up for the offense else where honestly.

I hear ya. But I don't think that necessarily works. And I think having one great scorer who is also a liability is a common prescription for champions. You've got to have that one scoring go-to guy, especially on the lower block. For power forwards, think McHale, Aguire, and Barkley.

We have some super good defenders to close the gap on West's liabilities. It can work. West's artistry last night was absolutely fantastic.

McKeyFan
11-01-2012, 07:52 AM
I was very impressed overall with how well the starters played as a unit - lots of quick, smart, extra passes, guys knowing where to find an open or cutting teammate. The second unit ground the game to a halt at times offensively, but thats to be expected for a couple games. I'd like to see a shorter leash for some of those guys, but it seems as if Frank is gonna stick with his egg timer and baptize these guys by fire (which I can live with). For as impressive as Paul George looked, I am concerned that he was largely MIA in the last 3 quarters offensively. He was all over the glass, and I thought he made nice passes despite the turnovers. If he can become more consistent we're in serious business. Same can be said for Hibbert as well. I'd like to see him be a little more assertive down the stretch. Roy is a very emotional player, and when things are going well for him he feeds off it. I wonder if some of his prolonged time on the bench disrupted that tonight.

Agreed. I made the same observation in the Odd Thoughts thread.

Anthem
11-01-2012, 07:53 AM
I was very impressed overall with how well the starters played as a unit - lots of quick, smart, extra passes, guys knowing where to find an open or cutting teammate.
Man, this is a great point. Excellent awareness from the starting unit, 80% of which was like a well-oiled machine in terms of passing. It'll take Green a while to fit into that group, but if he does we'll be in excellent shape.

CJ Jones
11-01-2012, 07:54 AM
18 TO's?

You can't lay all the blame on the coach for those turnovers. Most of them were unforced and should be blamed on laziness by the players. I thought we ran some nice sets and shared the ball well last night.


As for the players, I thought everybody made positive contributions during the game. I wouldn't say anybody played terrible. It was sloppy, but you can partially blame the refs for that. They swallowed their whistle on at least a dozen obvious foul calls causing several of our turnovers.

few thoughts:

Green played great D throughout the game. He played under control and didn't force anything. I thought he took good shots, he just missed some he'll usually make. We missed him on at least two alley oops which would of made his line look better. At least 3 of his 6 turnovers can partially be blamed on Hill. Twice for nonchalantly coming to the ball and letting his man cut off the pass and another for throwing a bullet pass when Green was expecting an alley. Then you can blame another one on the ref for tripping him. Some of it's on him, and he's got to be stronger with the ball, but I was happy with the way he played. Definitely wasn't as bad as some are making it sound.

Stephenson and Young both gave us good minutes off the bench. Lance got beat a couple times on defense, but his length caused a couple turnovers and stops. I thought he played a good game for the most part. Young was solid on both ends as I expected. We're going to need these guys to play like that consistently while Danny's out.

Mahinmi was solid defensively. He didn't get any favors from the refs tonight. I counted at least 3 times he was fouled and it went uncalled. Once on his only shot (beautiful play by Lance btw), and at least two more slaps on the arms and wrists that led to turnovers. The Raptors were getting away with murder last night. That Lowry call that went against him in the 4th was terrible, too. Overall a frustrating but solid game for Ian.

Overall, I was happy with everyone's game. No one was perfect, but everyone contributed and played hard. Honestly, I wasn't expecting a win last night. It's not easy beating any team on their floor during opening night. Their crowd was crazy, and I don't think anyone will disagree that Toronto's an improved team. That big mans a beast. Any player, let alone a rookie, tough enough to go at D. West earns my respect. He's going to be a good one.

McKeyFan
11-01-2012, 07:59 AM
Rotation on defense. He was burned with poor rotation several times. The guy has skills, but zero basketball IQ.

I don't agree with this.

Lance has good instincts on defense. His spacing between his man, the ball, and the basket, is usually excellent. He may need to learn some defensive schemes a bit better, but that's not a knock on his innate BBall IQ.

I also think he sees the game on the other side of the floor with excellence. What seems to be going on, to me, is that he is harnessing his desire (and ability) to go turbo crazy with scoring, penetrating, and distributing (aka Iverson) and that has him a bit stilted right now. If he ever locks in, it could get real interesting.

Anthem
11-01-2012, 08:12 AM
I don't agree with this.

Lance has good instincts on defense. His spacing between his man, the ball, and the basket, is usually excellent. He may need to learn some defensive schemes a bit better, but that's not a knock on his innate BBall IQ.
The funny thing is that I spent several possessions in the second half watching Lance and only Lance on defense, and he seemed to really get the defensive rotations well. Maybe he really missed out in the first half, maybe I watched him for his only few seconds of competence in the game, or maybe I just don't know what a good defensive rotation looks like. But I thought he was solid, which is the best I've ever been able to say for his team defense.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 08:14 AM
I hear ya. But I don't think that necessarily works. And I think having one great scorer who is also a liability is a common prescription for champions. You've got to have that one scoring go-to guy, especially on the lower block. For power forwards, think McHale, Aguire, and Barkley.

We have some super good defenders to close the gap on West's liabilities. It can work. West's artistry last night was absolutely fantastic.

Going against Toronto and making it work is way different than making it work with a team like Boston/Miami, those teams know how to destroy weaknesses on a team, we learned that lesson last year when they put Battie on West and shut him down.

Unclebuck
11-01-2012, 08:17 AM
I Is my math right... West and Hill combined for 20 in the fourth?



They are our two most mentally tough players, so that is to be expected

McKeyFan
11-01-2012, 08:17 AM
Going against Toronto and making it work is way different than making it work with a team like Boston/Miami, those teams know how to destroy weaknesses on a team, we learned that lesson last year when they put Battie on West and shut him down.

If your "go-to scorer" gets shut down, the strategy obviously does not work. I never saw McHale or Aguire get shut down. Honestly, never.

We must hope that West can make some adjustments and not get shut down again. Otherwise, we need to change strategies.

Coopdog23
11-01-2012, 08:20 AM
West and Hill saved them in this one

Trader Joe
11-01-2012, 08:24 AM
See? Green can easily replace Granger.

The point is and was that the team can pick up the slack for Granger, Green is judt part of the team. Apparently though since we're directly picking on Green does anyone remember how Danny did in our first game last year?

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 08:26 AM
If your "go-to scorer" gets shut down, the strategy obviously does not work. I never saw McHale or Aguire get shut down. Honestly, never.

We must hope that West can make some adjustments and not get shut down again. Otherwise, we need to change strategies.

I really hope you are not comparing West to Mchale, Mchale is a hall of famer for a reason, West is good in offense but as we saw last year he can be shut down by somebody as little as Battie and if he doesn't bring offense he is pretty much a negative to the team.

By the way if West plays the same way he played in the first 3 quarters yesterday against a good team I don't see a chance in hell for the Pacers to come back.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 08:29 AM
The point is and was that the team can pick up the slack for Granger, Green is judt part of the team. Apparently though since we're directly picking on Green does anyone remember how Danny did in our first game last year?

I think he is mentioning Seth's post in another thread were he said that Green was going to "easily" replace Danny's numbers.

Here is the exact quote from Naptownseth:


This hurts the bench, but Green can easily replace Danny with a similar all-around impact.

Crazy to think that not long ago the same people that are saying that Green can easily replace Danny are the same people telling me that Danny is as good as Melo :crazy:

Kemo
11-01-2012, 08:36 AM
I love pizza.

mmm pizza ...
I dunno if any of ya'll have been through Anderson and had any, but if not, I HIGHLY HIGHLY RECOMMEND ART'S Varsity Pizza on the corner of 29th and Main St. ... Absolutely the best pizza in Indiana .. The extra large is about $30 and it is enough pizza to feed a family of 6 and still have some left over for the next day.. I know me, my moms and pops ordered one and all 3 of us ate till we were stuffed... and we had 2 of the large ziplock baggys chocked full of pizza left...

Sorry for bein off topic, but someone said pizza and it made me salivate and remenisce my last meal at Art's LMAO

Erndog
11-01-2012, 08:40 AM
I was at the Raps board and a lot of them were complaining about the officiating saying that they should have won easily.

I kindly reminded them we were without Granger also.

Anyways, I liked Roy and PG but they needed to step up their scoring in the second half. West was obviously a beast and hope he can step up and fill the void left by Danny. Gerald was pretty invisible for the most part tonight. And Hill got better as the game progressed- having missed pre-season I imagine he's still trying to getting his legs and body back in game shape.

Solid win, onto the next one!

InYaFace
11-01-2012, 08:40 AM
I sum up this game with two pictures:

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/honeybadger1.jpg

vs.

http://whispersoftly2u.net/images/barney-the-dinosaur.jpg

Dr. Hibbert
11-01-2012, 08:52 AM
Was I the only one who loved the officiating last night, then? I wish all NBA games were called like that.

Eleazar
11-01-2012, 09:26 AM
Was I the only one who loved the officiating last night, then? I wish all NBA games were called like that.

I like when they let them play, but not when the fouls result in a missed shot or a turnover, which happened a lot last night.

Mackey_Rose
11-01-2012, 09:30 AM
All those times we looked great for the majority of the game against a more talented team only for them to overcome us with talent and poise in the 4th...It feels pretty nice to be on the other side of that.

Bingo.

Overall it was a pretty terrible game, but the result was saved because David West dressed up as Chuck Norris for Halloween. We did not execute well offensively, save for David West deciding to score every time down the floor in the 4th quarter. The rotations defensively were pretty abysmal, especially from the 2nd unit, but the 1st unit wasn't much, if any better. As bad as the play was on the court, Vogel's coaching was even worse.

Starting Green over Young made little sense before the game, and even less sense after. Vogel has been coaching long enough that we can start to see patterns to his decisions. He clearly has little interest in fostering chemistry, and focusing on "fit" in his lineups. He seems intent on starting his 5 best players, and then letting the bench work themselves out. Unless his ultimate plan is to bring Granger off the bench upon his return, he should be starting Young while he's out. He needs to start considering how guys fit with the other guys on the floor, more than he does. He has enough scoring to get by in the starting lineup with Hill, George, West, and Hibbert. He has little to no scoring in the 2nd unit. Green was brought in to be a 6th Man of the Year type of player. At least I think that was surely the front office's intention. He should be allowed to be that, especially with Granger out. He's clearly the best scoring option we have after the top 5 guys. Let him come off the bench and be the main scorer with the 2nd unit. That's why he's here.

Paul and Roy dominated the 1st half, and then it was like everybody forgot. We stopped running our offense through them, and the game nearly got away from us in the 3rd quarter because of it. Why they were the last two to be reinserted in the 4th quarter is beyond me. Vogel owes David West a nice St. Elmos' steak dinner after that one.

Since86
11-01-2012, 09:43 AM
Crazy to think that not long ago the same people that are saying that Green can easily replace Danny are the same people telling me that Danny is as good as Melo :crazy:

So you think Melo is a good all-around player?

That phrase "all-around impact" is pretty important to figure out what exactly they're trying to say, as opposed to how you're taking it.

Since86
11-01-2012, 09:46 AM
Was I the only one who loved the officiating last night, then? I wish all NBA games were called like that.

It was more phsyical than a lot of the playoffs last season, I thought. The Pacers rely on getting to the FT, so I don't think swallowing the whistle that hard works all that well for them. Getting the ball inside became risky, because it was leading to a lot of strips/steals. I didn't think a lot of the TOs were a result of bad passes, or shaky dribbling. A lot of them came from getting their arm whacked and losing control of the ball.

I like phsyical games, but that was over-the-top a bit.

Mackey_Rose
11-01-2012, 09:47 AM
So you think Melo is a good all-around player?

That phrase "all-around impact" is pretty important to figure out what exactly they're trying to say, as opposed to how you're taking it.

It's also pretty important to distinguish the fact that "all-around impact," and "all-around player," are not the same thing.

Steve Nash isn't a great "all-around player," but he certainly makes a great "all-around impact."

Hicks
11-01-2012, 09:52 AM
I like West. Awesome dude. But no matter how well he does on the offensive side of the court, he doesn't rebound or defend. That's extremely frustrating especially from a Big. I'd rather have all defense and rebounding and make up for the offense else where honestly.

If I recall correctly, his team tends to rebound better when he's on the floor as opposed to when he's off the floor. He doesn't grab a lot of them himself, but he tends to be good at boxing out on every possession and giving somebody on his team a chance. So it's not necessarily as bad as the individual stats may suggest.

xIndyFan
11-01-2012, 09:57 AM
Was I the only one who loved the officiating last night, then? I wish all NBA games were called like that.

me too. I hope it means the league has decided to go with more physical play this season.

CJ Jones
11-01-2012, 09:59 AM
I like when they let them play, but not when the fouls result in a missed shot or a turnover, which happened a lot last night.

Exactly. West was fouled several times on entry passes and rebounds. Bargnani practically tackled Hill to give him his only turnover. Then there were a couple bad calls on Hibbert and one on Mahinmi that were called fouls when they clearly jumped straight up. We got a couple calls to, but overall I thought it was pretty one sided. I like when they let them play in the paint, but I don't like all the hand and wrist slapping that was being allowed.

Kid Minneapolis
11-01-2012, 09:59 AM
My observations:

- The Raptors have something going. Man they were *active*, both offensively and defensively, and they have some great young players there.
- The Pacers looked "veteran", by withstanding a pretty thorough butt-whoopin most of the 2nd half and then just imposing their will down the stretch by condensing the game to a slow half-court game and going to money-making shots.
- David West is slow, plodding, old-looking --- and damn near unstoppable in the paint. Goes to show that athleticism doesn't mean squat in this league. The Raptor fans had to *hate* that old man was out there schooling them down the stretch. It was so out of place, and yet there was nothing they could do. If they manned him up, he just drove his guy down under the rim. If they doubled him, he found the cutters or guys on the 3-point line. So simple. Loved it.
- Despite DWest's dominant 4th quarter, he finished with a 0 +/-, which means he just made up in the 4th for what wasn't being accomplished the rest of the game.
- George Hill knows how to show up when he needs to show up.
- PG had a good 1st quarter offensively --- and then looked like PG of last year for the rest of the game. But he continued to contribute in other areas. 15 rebounds is ridiculous. I'll take 14-15-5 most nights, lol. I do wish he'd be more of a killer in the 4th though.
- Our defense on the whole was pretty porous, but it slowly got better as the game went on, and by the 4th quarter, Toronto really struggled offensively.
- We actually shot the ball really well on the whole, except free throws. Come on guys, hit those freebies.
- Toronto felt like they controlled this game in the 2nd half, but when you look at the box score, it's not exactly clear-cut as to why they were, until you look at the discrepancy in steals by Toronto and turnovers, which they also won handily.

DaveP63
11-01-2012, 10:02 AM
A lot of grit...and now the talent to make it pay off.

CJ Jones
11-01-2012, 10:04 AM
Bingo.

Overall it was a pretty terrible game, but the result was saved because David West dressed up as Chuck Norris for Halloween. We did not execute well offensively, save for David West deciding to score every time down the floor in the 4th quarter. The rotations defensively were pretty abysmal, especially from the 2nd unit, but the 1st unit wasn't much, if any better.
.

I agree with the most of your post, but I have to question what you saw defensively. We just held them to 36% shooting at their house, and it's not like they were just missing a bunch of wide open shots.

Mackey_Rose
11-01-2012, 10:16 AM
I agree with the most of your post, but I have to question what you saw defensively. We just held them to 36% shooting at their house, and it's not like they were just missing a bunch of wide open shots.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=400277724

Look at their shot chart. Look at how many shots they missed in the paint, and right at the rim.

Other than Roy's 5 blocks, for the most part, that isn't due to good defense. That's just bad offense.

Sparhawk
11-01-2012, 10:24 AM
Geez, right now every team seems to be turning the ball over a lot. Guess that makes it easier to swallow.

Kobe had 7 TOs yesterday.

Clippers had 22 TOs and still won. hahaha

Sparhawk
11-01-2012, 10:27 AM
Cmon Milsap. Dude had 11boards with 6min left in the 2nd. Only finished with 15. Dude was on a torrid pace to 20+ easily. Bummer.

Naptown_Seth
11-01-2012, 10:29 AM
Paul George turned down the cuteness. He passed fairly well, despite the turnovers. He's learning, and that's encouraging.

I know that felt good for West, because Bargnani was pissing him off all game.
I agree. Paul looked MUCH better than he had in the preseason due to dialing stuff down a bit. He still tried to do too much at times and ended up losing his dribble, but overall he looked like a better offensive player than we saw last year.

B A M F - I mean this doesn't even need to be discussed at this point, and I agree that he was getting pretty PO'd by some of the physical play. Big mistake for the Raps.


I thought TYLER had a very useful, productive game. I would love to see more of that because it was a rare time that I felt good about his role on the court and how he was executing. I think the physical level the refs allowed also fit into what Tyler does.


Green was fine, that wasn't a bad game. He was active on defense and IMO was a sum positive on the night. The team has scorers, he doesn't need to light it up even if he's in for Danny. That's what Roy, Paul and David are for.


Ian to a large degree and DJ to lesser degree both got INTIMIDATED by the intensity and physical play. Ian seemed to let his confidence drop a bit until later in the game, although a couple of times he lost the ball via an UNCALLED FOUL. DJ seemed to get a bit fired up after also being pressed very aggressively early on which improved his game.

So I wouldn't sweat Ian or DJ one bit, they just got put on their heals by a Raps team that appeared to be playing for a title based on how physically close and aggressive they were on defense (ahem, fouling).

Sam Young made several nice plays, often away from the ball, and I just love seeing him find the space gaps on defense and cover them up, block out, etc. He had a quietly very helpful game.


Of course Roy was Roy which implies potential 2nd time AS center. Dude is great to the point that it feels boring to even mention it.


And how about Hill getting all gritty with his hip pointer. Last year and this summer we debated who the closer was and as I recall we had a pretty fair group that pointed directly at West and Hill. Last night emphasized the truth in that opinion.


They won't get caught so off-guard in game 2, and they showed great spirit in hanging in this one for the win.



Vogel had some really sweet plays in the rotation last night. Hill set the backdoor screen for Paul on the give n go with Roy and there was that complex play that ended up with Roy at the FT line dumping to a backscreen open West cutting to the rim. Some of the plays might still be rough, but fundamentally I LOVE WHAT VOGEL IS TRYING TO DO WITH THE TALENT HE HAS.

Dare I say "Carlisle-esque". Very hopeful on that front, seems like he and the staff have a good understanding of the roster and how to win with it.

CJ Jones
11-01-2012, 10:31 AM
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=400277724

Look at their shot chart. Look at how many shots they missed in the paint, and right at the rim.

Other than Roy's 5 blocks, for the most part, that isn't due to good defense. That's just bad offense.

They weren't just missing wide open layups either. We were contesting a lot of those shots. Even Tyler was defending the paint well. The defense deserves a little credit. D. West was pretty terrible most of the first 3 qtrs, though. I can't deny that.

edit: now if you say the wings didn't rotate as well as they should I can agree with that, but the big men, minus West for 3 qtrs, did a hell of a job rotating and playing help D.

Mackey_Rose
11-01-2012, 10:31 AM
Cmon Milsap. Dude had 11boards with 6min left in the 2nd. Only finished with 15. Dude was on a torrid pace to 20+ easily. Bummer.

We call that the Troy Murphy system.

Get double digits in the 1st half, then cruise in the 2nd, and laugh all the way to bank.

Kid Minneapolis
11-01-2012, 10:38 AM
I got a lil' frustrated by Vogel's substitutions in the 4th... it seemed like he kept some key guys benched entirely too deep into the quarter. It seems like PG and Hibbert didn't re-enter until the 6:00 mark.

Ace E.Anderson
11-01-2012, 10:50 AM
I got a lil' frustrated by Vogel's substitutions in the 4th... it seemed like he kept some key guys benched entirely too deep into the quarter. It seems like PG and Hibbert didn't re-enter until the 6:00 mark.

I swear it wasn't until the 3-4 minute mark. I was SCREAMING at the TV to put those two back in the game lol

aamcguy
11-01-2012, 10:52 AM
Hibbert wasn't in until about 4:00. But I think PG came in around 6, so I think you both are right. I was so tired of Ian by then lol

CoolHand
11-01-2012, 10:59 AM
mmm pizza ...
I dunno if any of ya'll have been through Anderson and had any, but if not, I HIGHLY HIGHLY RECOMMEND ART'S Varsity Pizza on the corner of 29th and Main St. ... Absolutely the best pizza in Indiana .. The extra large is about $30 and it is enough pizza to feed a family of 6 and still have some left over for the next day.. I know me, my moms and pops ordered one and all 3 of us ate till we were stuffed... and we had 2 of the large ziplock baggys chocked full of pizza left...

Sorry for bein off topic, but someone said pizza and it made me salivate and remenisce my last meal at Art's LMAO

Is it better than Art's on Broadway in Anderson? I think the pizza is ok there, but nothing that great... I usually have the baked spaghetti..

PacersHomer
11-01-2012, 11:02 AM
Even though he didn't play well today, I feel a lot more comfortable with Mahinmi than I did with Amundson. Mahinmi plays with a lot of hustle like Amundson did but he has way more talent to back it up. Pretty bad game but all that matters is the W. David West and Paul George gave me hope that Granger's scoring will be covered.

Since86
11-01-2012, 11:08 AM
I got a lil' frustrated by Vogel's substitutions in the 4th... it seemed like he kept some key guys benched entirely too deep into the quarter. It seems like PG and Hibbert didn't re-enter until the 6:00 mark.


JV wasn't in the game. Bargs was playing center. He would have eaten Roy up if Roy was in the game trying to step out and guard him.

If the situation was reversed, and the Pacers were trying to hold on to the lead, then you'd need Roy in the game for his offense. But they needed defensive stops.

I thought Frank did the right thing, and as soon as the Raptors went big, so did the Pacers.

Kid Minneapolis
11-01-2012, 12:08 PM
You *could* argue that, but vice versa, Bargs would be helpless against Hibbert.... Hibbert is our best player and they had few answers for him.... they would've had issues stopping him had they left VC on the bench. That mentality sorta tells me they let the Raps dictate the personel. I really doubt they leave VC on the bench if we stick Hibbert out there.

We won the game, so I can't complain too much.

Naptown_Seth
11-01-2012, 12:17 PM
I like when they let them play, but not when the fouls result in a missed shot or a turnover, which happened a lot last night.
I don't really like when they "let them play" because I like to see clean basketball. Fouls are fouls for a reason, there is no skill to yanking someone's arm to make the "steal" or to force a missed shot. I think "letting them play" benefits less talented teams because they are not being penalized for the sloppy play that more talented players have spent their life improving.

Bodying up a guy and holding your space is one thing, but intruding into his space to the point that he's being physically shoved aside is not a "basketball play". If it was then I'd be a star defensive player with my steel toe boots kicking everyone in the shins. ;)

The Raps were being rewarded for their overly aggressive/physical play rather than being penalized for not always holding their space and it definitely caught the Pacers off guard.

I DO NOT THINK THE REFS WERE UNFAIR. The Pacers were allowed to be too physical also, but they weren't trying to play that way most of the night because they were trying to play within the normal rules.


Think of this in terms of traveling. Nash or Paul have nasty handles, but if you are allowed to palm, carry or outright just not dribble then it removes their skill advantage, one that is uniquely tied to the sport of basketball. If you want to watch competition for the "ball" that involves shoving and hip checking then there's always hockey (normally). I want to see steals, blocks and shot defense that is great without relying on holding, slapping or pushing the player.

RLeWorm
11-01-2012, 12:23 PM
I really liked what i saw from PG yesterday in the first half. Put him in the mid post and let him go to work. He seemed to go away from it in the 2nd half though. He is only going to get better! His defense on Derozen at the end was big! And David West is just a monster! Roy Hibbert is a true big and i love it!

Since86
11-01-2012, 12:27 PM
You *could* argue that, but vice versa, Bargs would be helpless against Hibbert.... Hibbert is our best player and they had few answers for him.... they would've had issues stopping him had they left VC on the bench. That mentality sorta tells me they let the Raps dictate the personel. I really doubt they leave VC on the bench if we stick Hibbert out there.

The difference is the situations though. When you're down late in games, you've got to get stops. When you're up late in games, you've got to get buckets.

When you need stops against Bargs at Center, playing Roy against him makes it tougher.

OlBlu
11-01-2012, 12:33 PM
A win on the road in the NBA is a win and no one at the end of the year will remember that it was a big ugly.....:cool:

CableKC
11-01-2012, 12:34 PM
- David West is slow, plodding, old-looking --- and damn near unstoppable in the paint. Goes to show that athleticism doesn't mean squat in this league. The Raptor fans had to *hate* that old man was out there schooling them down the stretch. It was so out of place, and yet there was nothing they could do. If they manned him up, he just drove his guy down under the rim. If they doubled him, he found the cutters or guys on the 3-point line. So simple. Loved it.
I figured out what I can compare David West's game to.

Have you played against someone on NBA2k13 where he would dribble, dribble, dribble and dribble all over the court, you're trying to keep up with him while waiting for him to shoot the ball....and finally...at the last second...he's able to somehow get around some screen or get open and he makes a shot?

Well, that's West's offensive game. That play towards the end of the game where West had the ball at the top of the FT Line with less than 6 seconds with Bargnani guarding him.....shows what he can do. West dribbled around looking for an opening with Bargnani defending him pretty well...and all West did was lower his shoulder and dribble under and past Bargnani to score that quick layup.

Not only is West a BAMF and the Honey-Badger......but his game is built on his strength, mid-range game and being VERY crafty when trying to find ways to score.

West is a crafty BAMF Honey-Badger.

Naptown_Seth
11-01-2012, 12:36 PM
about Tyler...

Seth is not going to be able to complain for a while now :)
I hadn't even read through the thread when I posted that I was pleased with his game last night. If he was a 20-30th pick AND played like that every night, I'd be quite the supporter. I felt comfortable with his role, how he was used and how he played into that.


Lance was hit and miss, but didn't really have a large impact in either way. I was fine with his night but not chomping at the bit for more.

However big credit to Lance on one pass fake he used (faked rotation pass IIRC) to clear the post feed (again, IIRC). However the play went, I specifically recall thinking he was in trouble and that he smartly used the pass fake to fix the situation effectively. That's worth 5 behind the back passes.

Naptown_Seth
11-01-2012, 12:45 PM
Then you can blame another one on the ref for tripping him.
No kidding. And nobody even mentioned it. I have no idea why Denari or QB went quiet about it, but not one word, not even "and the Pacer turn it over", let alone "and the ref becomes the Raps 6th man".



One other thing I haven't seen anyone mentioned
Um NEARLY FULL COURT THREAD THE NEEDLE PASS BY AUGUSTINE. Holy freaking...

Anthem
11-01-2012, 12:51 PM
Crazy to think that not long ago the same people that are saying that Green can easily replace Danny are the same people telling me that Danny is as good as Melo :crazy:
I still believe that a Granger/Lin/Stoudamire Knicks team would have won more games than a Melo/Lin/Stoudamire one.

It was never a belief that Granger was a superior offensive player to Melo, it was that he was more likely to fit into a team system.

CableKC
11-01-2012, 12:54 PM
One other thing I haven't seen anyone mentioned
Um NEARLY FULL COURT THREAD THE NEEDLE PASS BY AUGUSTINE. Holy freaking...
When I saw that...I was like.....damn.....why the EFF did he pass the ball all the way up court to a running Hansbrough ( a guy that can barely leap off the floor ) right underneath the basket who was being chased and covered by 3 other Raptors Players?

I was amazed that Hansbrough caught it.

Naptown_Seth
11-01-2012, 12:56 PM
The always bitter VNZLA quoting me to draw a false conclusion...

but Green can easily replace Danny with a similar all-around impact.
This is not the same thing as same numbers or same scoring, whatever.
Green's man did jack squat all night. That's a huge impact. Green got a little flustered but that's a blip.

I realize that you are trying to twist this into "Danny sucks" but that's not true either. I've never said Danny is Melo, that's a fight you are having with someone else. Danny scores better than Green, especially from the 3. Green keeps his spacing better at both ends all the time, Danny picks his moments.

Green is just beginning to show that maybe he can be a Danny-level talent, and Danny has slipped a small notch back from his AS season profile. But Danny is also NOT PAID LIKE MELO so I really don't get what the problem is. Green is in as a bargain due to his history and still not being proven, Danny is paid like a guy who showed it for years now.


Dumping on EITHER GUY at this point seems just ridiculous. The only worry is Danny's knee, not his actual game. You are still mostly alone in hating that.

Noodle
11-01-2012, 12:58 PM
The funny thing is that I spent several possessions in the second half watching Lance and only Lance on defense, and he seemed to really get the defensive rotations well. Maybe he really missed out in the first half, maybe I watched him for his only few seconds of competence in the game, or maybe I just don't know what a good defensive rotation looks like. But I thought he was solid, which is the best I've ever been able to say for his team defense.


I don't agree with this.

Lance has good instincts on defense. His spacing between his man, the ball, and the basket, is usually excellent. He may need to learn some defensive schemes a bit better, but that's not a knock on his innate BBall IQ.

I also think he sees the game on the other side of the floor with excellence. What seems to be going on, to me, is that he is harnessing his desire (and ability) to go turbo crazy with scoring, penetrating, and distributing (aka Iverson) and that has him a bit stilted right now. If he ever locks in, it could get real interesting.

Many of you guys are making too much about me getting upset with Stephenson. Stephenson's general proclivities play a role in my short temper when it comes to his play.

Ok, let me clarify something. Stephenson didn't play bad. You guys are over-analyzing what I said. "Stephenson was the one who almost made me break my remote". The original post wasn't even about that really. It had other content, which was originally intended to defend Gerald Green who seemed to be under assault from many posters.

Lance just irritated me twice in one game, which is he does regularly when he plays. I got mad at him, and I could have broke my remote. A little anger management that's all. Just as I got mad with West for the same reason, which is also normal too. The point was, of all bench players, he was clearly the dud of the group in my opinion. He made a putback and a miracle three. This doesn't measure up to a good game for me. Sam Young and Gerald Green, NBA journeymen will take all of his playing time, and deservingly so. How do you guys not see how Stephenson's value is less than those two? Stephenson's defense is worse than both of their's. Is it so horrible that I believe these things?

Noodle
11-01-2012, 01:01 PM
The always bitter VNZLA quoting me to draw a false conclusion...

This is not the same thing as same numbers or same scoring, whatever.
Green's man did jack squat all night. That's a huge impact. Green got a little flustered but that's a blip.

I realize that you are trying to twist this into "Danny sucks" but that's not true either. I've never said Danny is Melo, that's a fight you are having with someone else. Danny scores better than Green, especially from the 3. Green keeps his spacing better at both ends all the time, Danny picks his moments.

Green is just beginning to show that maybe he can be a Danny-level talent, and Danny has slipped a small notch back from his AS season profile. But Danny is also NOT PAID LIKE MELO so I really don't get what the problem is. Green is in as a bargain due to his history and still not being proven, Danny is paid like a guy who showed it for years now.


Dumping on EITHER GUY at this point seems just ridiculous. The only worry is Danny's knee, not his actual game. You are still mostly alone in hating that.

For those who are upset about the Stephenson comment. ^This was my point. Perhaps I lack the literary skills to make it more clear. Gerald Green was awesome on the defensive end. Stephenson, meh. Next time I will say, "Green's man did jack squat all night'. :D

Anthem
11-01-2012, 01:04 PM
Many of you guys are making too much about me getting upset with Stephenson. Stephenson's general proclivities play a role in my short temper when it comes to his play.

Ok, let me clarify something. Stephenson didn't play bad. You guys are over-analyzing what I said. "Stephenson was the one who almost made me break my remote". The original post wasn't even about that really. It had other content, which was originally intended to defend Gerald Green who seemed to be under assault from many posters.

Lance just irritated me twice in one game, which is he does regularly when he plays. I got mad at him, and I could have broke my remote. A little anger management that's all. Just as I got mad with West for the same reason, which is also normal too. The point was, of all bench players, he was clearly the dud of the group in my opinion. He made a putback and a miracle three. This doesn't measure up to a good game for me. Sam Young and Gerald Green, NBA journeymen will take all of his playing time, and deservingly so. How do you guys not see how Stephenson's value is less than those two? Stephenson's defense is worse than both of their's. Is it so horrible that I believe these things?
Fair enough. Didn't mean to jump on ya, I was just surprised because I thought your observations were so different from my own.

When Lance got here, he could barely guard a traffic cone.

vnzla81
11-01-2012, 01:31 PM
The always bitter VNZLA quoting me to draw a false conclusion...

I'm not bitter I just don't like people BSing me and changing their position when is convenient.


This is not the same thing as same numbers or same scoring, whatever.
Green's man did jack squat all night. That's a huge impact. Green got a little flustered but that's a blip.

Green's man did jack squat because Green's man was freaking Landry Fields, he sucks.


I realize that you are trying to twist this into "Danny sucks" but that's not true either. I've never said Danny is Melo, that's a fight you are having with someone else. Danny scores better than Green, especially from the 3. Green keeps his spacing better at both ends all the time, Danny picks his moments.

Yes you didn't say that he was better than Melo but you pretty much showed me a bunch of numbers telling me how great Danny is and how comparable he is to Reggie.


Green is just beginning to show that maybe he can be a Danny-level talent, and Danny has slipped a small notch back from his AS season profile. But Danny is also NOT PAID LIKE MELO so I really don't get what the problem is. Green is in as a bargain due to his history and still not being proven, Danny is paid like a guy who showed it for years now.

So now Danny slipped an small notch since his all star year but when I said the same thing you pretty much showed me a bunch of numbers telling me that he is actually better than his all star year.......... and Green is only a bargain if he shows that he can contribute and it looks to me like you are expecting a bit too much from him, Mcbob sounds familiar?.....



Dumping on EITHER GUY at this point seems just ridiculous. The only worry is Danny's knee, not his actual game. You are still mostly alone in hating that.

I'm not hating anything, I'm actually amazed in how many of the people that have been telling me how amazing and great Danny is all this years are the same ones telling me "how easily Green is going to replace him", so "Danny is amazing", or "the next Reggie Miller" but someway somehow some guy that was in the D league not long ago is going to replace him? come on man!!

OlBlu
11-01-2012, 01:37 PM
I still believe that a Granger/Lin/Stoudamire Knicks team would have won more games than a Melo/Lin/Stoudamire one.

It was never a belief that Granger was a superior offensive player to Melo, it was that he was more likely to fit into a team system.

Melo's play on our international teams has shown this not to be true. Granger got nothing but splinters in his butt playing for Coach K. Melo was the star on both ends of the court....:cool:

aamcguy
11-01-2012, 01:49 PM
Melo's play on our international teams has shown this not to be true. Granger got nothing but splinters in his butt playing for Coach K. Melo was the star on both ends of the court....:cool:

I would argue that Melo and Durant are on par with LeBron in the international game, but in the NBA they are not at his level.

In a conversation about Carmelo Anthony in the NBA, i would rate his time spent with the Nuggets and Knicks over non-league play.

MyFavMartin
11-01-2012, 02:22 PM
You *could* argue that, but vice versa, Bargs would be helpless against Hibbert.... Hibbert is our best player and they had few answers for him.... they would've had issues stopping him had they left VC on the bench. That mentality sorta tells me they let the Raps dictate the personel. I really doubt they leave VC on the bench if we stick Hibbert out there.

We won the game, so I can't complain too much.

This and put Hibbert on the PF (Amir Johnson) while DWest picks up Bargs.

Kid Minneapolis
11-01-2012, 02:25 PM
This and put Hibbert on the PF (Amir Johnson) while DWest picks up Bargs.

Exactly.

I just felt that with the game at such a crucial juncture, you want your best players on the floor. Doesn't even explain PG's absence for most of the 4th quarter. I could be wrong about that, but seems like he left large chunks of our 2nd unit out there for a loong time, even after the Raps had brought back most of their starters.

I could be wrong, but I kept looking at the clock, and it ticked down to 6:00 and I remember thinking "Why isn't PG or Hibbert out there?" We had made a run and got it close, and then the Raps started to match us score for score, and it just seemed to me that we waited an oddly long amount of time to get our guys back in.

Like I said, we won the game, so I'm not terribly torn up about it right now. It's something I'll be keeping my 6th eye on though throughout the season. Why yes, I have six eyes.

Since86
11-01-2012, 02:34 PM
This and put Hibbert on the PF (Amir Johnson) while DWest picks up Bargs.

The defensive advantage Roy brings is when he gets to hang out in front of the rim and challenge shots.

Him standing out and guarding a player 15ft from the basket takes away that advantage. The Pacers did exactly what they needed to do in order to win, why would you want to change the things that they actually did right?

They needed to get way more athletic on their front line. Ian was brought in for this exact role. It worked out great.

gummy
11-01-2012, 03:18 PM
Something I haven't seen discussed yet:

Tyler set several good hard screens instead of slipping out early to roll toward the basket. Yay!

Set good screens and rebound. Then I can forgive the flailing toward the basket - at least it does sometimes result in free throws.

I don't remember him taking a single jump shot.

Noodle
11-01-2012, 03:27 PM
Exactly.

I just felt that with the game at such a crucial juncture, you want your best players on the floor. Doesn't even explain PG's absence for most of the 4th quarter. I could be wrong about that, but seems like he left large chunks of our 2nd unit out there for a loong time, even after the Raps had brought back most of their starters.

I could be wrong, but I kept looking at the clock, and it ticked down to 6:00 and I remember thinking "Why isn't PG or Hibbert out there?" We had made a run and got it close, and then the Raps started to match us score for score, and it just seemed to me that we waited an oddly long amount of time to get our guys back in.

Like I said, we won the game, so I'm not terribly torn up about it right now. It's something I'll be keeping my 6th eye on though throughout the season. Why yes, I have six eyes.

Instead, Vogel left Stephenson out there to barely exist. :devil:

notque
11-01-2012, 03:49 PM
Something I haven't seen discussed yet:

Tyler set several good hard screens instead of slipping out early to roll toward the basket. Yay!

Set good screens and rebound. Then I can forgive the flailing toward the basket - at least it does sometimes result in free throws.

I don't remember him taking a single jump shot.

I just watched the game focusing only on Tyler. It was an interesting experience.

He is the main inbounder after a defensive make so that Roy gets time to go down the floor
He dives for rebounds hard since he is the main inbounder, and knows he has to go over there anyway if they make.
He sets good screens
The worst thing you can do is give him the ball with the clock going down. Stephensen did this when he should have been the one to ISO. Don't make Tyler Iso.
He runs well back and forth, harder than most.
He did the flail around get free throws thing in a situation I wasn't even sure he had the ball secured. Got the call. Good stuff.
Sometimes he looks like he really wants to be the focus of a play, and gets down a bit that he isn't, but doesn't move any less hard.
He gave up baskets that weren't his fault, and were entirely the fault of the coaching staff having him cover pick and rolls so high. It's reckless, and I don't see why we do it.

I came away from the game thinking more highly of him that I did. It's hard to notice all the things he's doing because he doesn't have the ball, but I actually like him doing dirty work, running around...

MyFavMartin
11-01-2012, 05:06 PM
The defensive advantage Roy brings is when he gets to hang out in front of the rim and challenge shots.

Him standing out and guarding a player 15ft from the basket takes away that advantage. The Pacers did exactly what they needed to do in order to win, why would you want to change the things that they actually did right?

They needed to get way more athletic on their front line. Ian was brought in for this exact role. It worked out great.

Toronto built their 10 point lead with us playing Ian on Barge, so Mahinmi wasn't exactly stopping him.

Rogco
11-01-2012, 05:46 PM
whew, rough game.

My first thought was that we really missed Granger. My second was that we really can't let West go next summer, the guy's the heart and soul of this team. My third is that our bench sucks.

I guess the worst looking player last night was Ian. I didn't see him play in the preseason, but he was just awful last night. Also was very unimpressed with Green. He looked overwhelmed. I also don't think George is going to take that "next step" that I keep hearing about. I'm sure he will continue to improve, but I just don't see him being one of those guys who can take over game. Hibbert has a nice inside game, but it's his D that really changes this team. He has become an excellent interior defender.

Since86
11-01-2012, 06:02 PM
Toronto built their 10 point lead with us playing Ian on Barge, so Mahinmi wasn't exactly stopping him.

Yeah, because it was Bargs that totally built that lead. He had two points during that span, and they came from the FT line. Ian did exactly what he was supposed to do, and kept Bargs a non-factor.

EDIT: When checking the play-by-play, I should have just looked at the Pacers side. Roy was in the game when Toronto went on their run, guarding JV, so yeah...

http://www.nba.com/games/20121031/INDTOR/gameinfo.html#Q3

docpaul
11-01-2012, 09:03 PM
There have been very few times in the past five years, where I've seen the team respond well to pressure defense. The in-your-face full court stuff seems to really jostle the team. To me, that was what I saw happen in the 2nd/3rd. Lots of active hands, disrupting passing lanes, etc. Noone was able to really respond to that.

In most of the first, George and Hibbert were either facilitating or getting great looks thanks to Hill (which was a pleasant surprise). Then they tried to run a few plays through West and it got a little ticky tacky, which amplified throughout the next few quarters. West got pissed off and Hill was jawing to the refs. They all starting losing their mental edge. Toronto defense then started to swarm...

I give credit to Casey for instilling that motivation in them, but as Unclebuck I believe mentioned earlier... it will be interesting to see if they can keep up that style of defense for 82 games.

aamcguy
11-01-2012, 09:26 PM
I just watched the game focusing only on Tyler. It was an interesting experience.

He is the main inbounder after a defensive make so that Roy gets time to go down the floor
He dives for rebounds hard since he is the main inbounder, and knows he has to go over there anyway if they make.
He sets good screens
The worst thing you can do is give him the ball with the clock going down. Stephensen did this when he should have been the one to ISO. Don't make Tyler Iso.
He runs well back and forth, harder than most.
He did the flail around get free throws thing in a situation I wasn't even sure he had the ball secured. Got the call. Good stuff.
Sometimes he looks like he really wants to be the focus of a play, and gets down a bit that he isn't, but doesn't move any less hard.
He gave up baskets that weren't his fault, and were entirely the fault of the coaching staff having him cover pick and rolls so high. It's reckless, and I don't see why we do it.

I came away from the game thinking more highly of him that I did. It's hard to notice all the things he's doing because he doesn't have the ball, but I actually like him doing dirty work, running around...


I think people get too caught up in how much he's not a starting PF and forget that he's an above average reserve PF. I do think that he seems to have matured over the summer and shouldn't always be the black hole he was much of the time in previous years. Also, his defensive rotations are better.

MyFavMartin
11-01-2012, 11:26 PM
Roy and JV weren't on the floor when Toronto built their 10 point lead. Number of points Bargs scored after Roy came on: 0. so, yes, dWest can guard bargs.

Roy did a good job last night on both ends of the co urt. Ian was a turnover machine who doesnzt command double yeamsor facilitate the offense.

Pace Maker
11-02-2012, 03:26 AM
Tyler seemed willing to not shoot every time he touched the ball, so that in itself is important. As usual his best asset is typically bulldozing his way to the free throw line.

Ian Mahimni had a really rough time holding onto the ball, I hope it was debut game jitters because his picks and defense is really solid

McKeyFan
11-02-2012, 08:30 AM
Tyler seemed willing to not shoot every time he touched the ball, so that in itself is important. As usual his best asset is typically bulldozing his way to the free throw line.

Ian Mahimni had a really rough time holding onto the ball, I hope it was debut game jitters because his picks and defense is really solid
I noticed a couple of times how lightning quick Ian was guarding the pick and roll. Something we have sorely needed.

Since86
11-02-2012, 09:30 AM
Roy and JV weren't on the floor when Toronto built their 10 point lead. Number of points Bargs scored after Roy came on: 0. so, yes, dWest can guard bargs.

Roy did a good job last night on both ends of the co urt. Ian was a turnover machine who doesnzt command double yeamsor facilitate the offense.

I posted the play-by-play so you didn't even have to dig it up yourself. I should have quoted it, I guess.



<TBODY>
09:03
[TOR 54-53]

Valanciunas Layup Shot: Made (8 PTS)


</TBODY>

<TBODY>
Hibbert Violation: Defensive Goaltending

09:03


</TBODY>



<TBODY>
08:38

Bargnani Running Layup Shot: Missed Block: Hibbert (4 BLK)







</TBODY>


Then they go on their run.

Then

<TBODY>
04:58

Valanciunas Foul: Personal (4 PF)




04:58

Valanciunas Substitution replaced by Gray


</TBODY>




Here's the biggest lead.


<TBODY>
04:01
[TOR 67-57]

Gray Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: DeRozan (1 AST)


</TBODY>


And then


<TBODY>
Hibbert Substitution replaced by Mahinmi

02:26


</TBODY>


http://www.nba.com/games/20121031/INDTOR/gameinfo.html#Q4

MyFavMartin
11-02-2012, 09:39 AM
I posted the play-by-play so you didn't even have to dig it up yourself. I should have quoted it, I guess.



Then they go on their run.

Then



Here's the biggest lead.


And then


http://www.nba.com/games/20121031/INDTOR/gameinfo.html#Q4

I was talking about the 10 point lead later in the game that Toronto had with about 6 minutes left in the game when we all thought we were going to lose and then DWest went all gangster on them.

nerveghost
11-02-2012, 01:53 PM
George Hill on that last play: "I'm goin rover coach"

Vogel: "Do not go rover George Hill stick with the play!" k
Nlmx


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Skk

JEM
11-02-2012, 04:30 PM
I thought this was one of the better games that Hansbrough has played in awhile ( dating back to last season of course ).