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View Full Version : Vogel plans to use D-League this year



boombaby1987
10-29-2012, 01:48 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Coach Vogel says the team plans to utilize the D-League this season and will likely send Miles Plumlee, Orlando Johnson and Ben Hansbrough.</p>&mdash; Scott Agness (@ScottAgness) <a href="https://twitter.com/ScottAgness/status/262988385960984576" data-datetime="2012-10-29T18:44:51+00:00">October 29, 2012</a></blockquote>
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Speed
10-29-2012, 01:51 PM
Good!! That is exactly who it would be good for! Orlando Johnson should spend most of the year there, I think.

rel
10-29-2012, 02:20 PM
...and Miles?
He seemed pretty ready play some spot minutes at 5 and contribute

pacer4ever
10-29-2012, 02:21 PM
good move I bet Pritchard is behind this he has used that tool very well in the past in Portland.

ilive4sports
10-29-2012, 02:23 PM
...and Miles?
He seemed pretty ready play some spot minutes at 5 and contribute
how much would he actually play though? I think Mahinmi is going to take up a lot of the back up 4/5 mins with Hans getting the rest. Might be better for Miles to be in the D-League, getting actual playing time.

Will Galen
10-29-2012, 02:33 PM
The Vets aren't going to like this! They won't have any rookie's to get their donuts or wear pink backpacks or whatever. They will have to do for themselves. (giggle, giggle, snort)

On second thought they might not send the three of them up to Fort Wayne at the same time . . . darn!

Unclebuck
10-29-2012, 03:02 PM
I'm not a big fan of D-League. I think they learn more being up with the Pacers, practicing, getting to know the ways of the NBA. Not a big deal either way.

Eleazar
10-29-2012, 03:15 PM
I agree, most people learn best by playing with and against the best, not with those who couldn't make it.

Sparhawk
10-29-2012, 03:19 PM
I'm very happy they are going to use the DLeague. Better than riding the bench. Getting actual minutes will help.

Mad-Mad-Mario
10-29-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm not a big fan of D-League. I think they learn more being up with the Pacers, practicing, getting to know the ways of the NBA. Not a big deal either way.

Good coaching at the d league level is probably the key.

Peck
10-29-2012, 03:38 PM
I love Frank Vogel. I love the fact that his ego is not so large that he is not afraid to not have his players under his thumb every min. of every day.

What Uncle Buck say's has some merit, but from about the middle of December to the end of March most teams do not practice anyway, as in full actuall practice. They have shoot arounds & film sessions. Yes they get the benefit of the coaching staff being here with them but nothing & I mean nothing beats actual game experiance.

The D-leauge is not NBA level for sure but it's not AAU or a rec. league either.

To say I'm thrilled with this is a massive understatement.

Strummer
10-29-2012, 03:55 PM
I'm not a big fan of D-League. I think they learn more being up with the Pacers, practicing, getting to know the ways of the NBA. Not a big deal either way.

I think it depends on the player and what you're hoping to achieve. For OJ, he needs to regain confidence in his shot. That's not going to happen sitting on the bench. He needs to play and I think the D-League is the best place to do it. He needs consistent minutes to either sink or swim. If he's the shooter we thought he was then he should be able to show it in the D-League.

I think D-League would have been horrible for Lance. He would have tried to be the star. I doubt that the D-League experience could have changed his mindset.

For Ben? I don't see the point of D-League unless they just want him to stay sharp or work on specific things.

Hard to say with Miles. I think they want to change his mindset a bit and he seems very coachable. Maybe the D-League will work for him. It depends a lot on who they have to work with him and how much input the Pacers have into how they play. It's not helpful if he just learns how to dominate smaller and slower bigs.

Naptown_Seth
10-29-2012, 04:15 PM
I agree with Peck completely. As I said in another thread, Orlando needs scoring reps. Yes, it's possible that he will develop some moves that don't work against NBA players, but he's going to be handling the ball a lot, taking lots of in game style jumpers (on the move, less space, heart rate up) and at least learning how to score against weaker defenders still better than his NCAA level competition.

I think there is great value in not putting up such a high barrier that some players can't climb it. Players can become dejected when faced with a growth step that exceeds their immediate ability. Just having me stand in front of a 30' sheer wall saying "learn to climb it" is not an effective teaching tool. Give Orlando lower goals that he can work to, then build on that, and then when he's improved more he can return and take a shot at the NBA obstacles, which at that point won't be as daunting and out of reach.


Plumlee is athletic enough to be here, but his game is very undisciplined.

Bottom line, reps, reps, reps. It's true that you can learn bad habits and it's true that you can kinda absorb the environment by sitting on the bench, but ultimately the odds of success are that those bad habits and that bench learning just aren't nearly as large as the positives the situation provides.

Nuntius
10-29-2012, 04:44 PM
I like that. It's great for OJ.

I'd like Miles to be in the rotation and play as I think that he is NBA ready but if he's going to get major playing time in the D-League then that's fine as well :)

wintermute
10-29-2012, 05:16 PM
I'm not a big fan of D-League. I think they learn more being up with the Pacers, practicing, getting to know the ways of the NBA. Not a big deal either way.

It's not like they'd be spending ALL their time in the D-League.

Anyway, we don't know yet how much time the Pacers' young players will actually spend in Fort Wayne. It could be as little as a one week stretch during a long Pacers road trip.

Regarding coaching, if the Pacers had their own D-League team, they'd have control over the coaching staff. It costs surprisingly little too - under the hybrid system of ownership, the running cost of a D-League team (including salaries) would be less than what they're paying Ben Hansbrough...

vnzla81
10-29-2012, 05:29 PM
About time, they finally have a place to send Lance to, we are finally going to see him "dominating" :)

Really?
10-30-2012, 02:34 PM
Another thing is, Frank said that in the past rookies have been rotation guys, but not this years group. So with the thinking of him giving starters more PT this year than in the past this fits right in with that, also I think they will be okay, as long as the Pacers give them instruction on what they would like them to focus on during their time at summer league.

Kegboy
11-02-2012, 11:17 AM
Wow, this is an indication of how busy I've been this week that I'm just now seeing this.

Obviously, and those who have put up with my rants all this time can probably guess, I'm over the moon about this. I don't have time to go Peck on this, or really even throw in a bunch of dancing fruit, but I am very, very, very happy. From the bottom of my heart, thank you Pacers.

Trader Joe
11-02-2012, 11:20 AM
Anytime you have to send your 24 year old first round pick to the D-league, it is probably not a good sign.

BRushWithDeath
11-02-2012, 12:08 PM
Regarding coaching, if the Pacers had their own D-League team, they'd have control over the coaching staff. It costs surprisingly little too - under the hybrid system of ownership, the running cost of a D-League team (including salaries) would be less than what they're paying Ben Hansbrough...

It's really that cheap? If that is the case, every franchise should have their own D-League team.

Trader Joe
11-02-2012, 12:09 PM
Less than what they're paying Ben Hansbrough? So they get to stock concessions, hire ushers, lease or own a venue for free then?

Ace E.Anderson
11-02-2012, 01:00 PM
Anytime you have to send your 24 year old first round pick to the D-league, it is probably not a good sign.

I hate to be negative, but I couldn't agree more. Not to harp but we had a chance to potentially get at least 2 or 3 other players (Jones III, Crowder, Jeff Taylor, O'Quinn come to mind) who either had more upside or would have been ready to contribute from day one on cheap, rookie contracts.

I hope he goes to the D-League and is able to learn some nuances that allows him to grow as a player and come back, ready to contribute on the Pacers.

BRushWithDeath
11-02-2012, 01:43 PM
Anytime you have to send your 24 year old first round pick to the D-league, it is probably not a good sign.

We used a 1st round pick on a guy who as a 23 year old senior was able to set career highs in minutes, points, rebounds, and blocks per game.

Those career highs amounted to 20.5 mpg, 6.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 0.9 blks. In college.

You reap what you sow.

avoidingtheclowns
11-02-2012, 02:02 PM
It's really that cheap? If that is the case, every franchise should have their own D-League team.

Good post on this topic from Matt Moore.


The Inbounds: It’s time for NBA teams to embrace the D-League future
Matt Moore - Aug 30, 2012

The 2012-2013 NBA D-League schedule will be announced Thursday to little fanfare and by little fanfare I mean no attention whatsoever. It will be a footnote passed along at the end of columns, random bits tweeted here and there. It will not drive traffic, move the needle, or sell tickets, outside of the occasionally rabid fanbases (and there are are, shockingly, a number of them in the league).

But what will be lost in all this hoopla is the complication for teams keeping an eye on their affiliate, if they don’t own their own. From the official release back in Joo-Lie:


AUSTIN TOROS (TX)
San Antonio Spurs

BAKERSFIELD JAM (CA)
Atlanta Hawks
Los Angeles Clippers
Phoenix Suns
Toronto Raptors

CANTON CHARGE (OH)
Cleveland Cavaliers

DAKOTA WIZARDS (Bismarck, ND)
Golden State Warriors

ERIE BAYHAWKS (PA)
New York Knicks

FORT WAYNE MAD ANTS (IN)
Charlotte Bobcats
Detroit Pistons
Indiana Pacers
Milwaukee Bucks

IDAHO STAMPEDE (Boise, ID)
Portland Trail Blazers

IOWA ENERGY (Des Moines, IA)
Chicago Bulls
Denver Nuggets
New Orleans Hornets
Washington Wizards

LOS ANGELES D-FENDERS (CA)
Los Angeles Lakers

MAINE RED CLAWS (Portland, ME)
Boston Celtics

RENO BIGHORNS (NV)
Memphis Grizzlies
Sacramento Kings
Utah Jazz

RIO GRANDE VALLEY VIPERS (TX)
Houston Rockets

SIOUX FALLS SKYFORCE (SD)
Miami Heat
Minnesota Timberwolves
Orlando Magic
Philadelphia 76ers

SPRINGFIELD ARMOR (MA)
Brooklyn Nets

TEXAS LEGENDS (Frisco, TX)
Dallas Mavericks

TULSA 66ERS (OK)
Oklahoma City Thunder


That’s 19 teams crammed into five affiliates. Now, this is not any sort of failure for the D-League. On the contrary, this is amazing. Eleven teams have one-to-one affiliations with their D-League squad, more than a third of the league. This is nothing short of a miracle, considering that five years ago, there were…two. And this is after the Utah Flash which had a close relationship with the Jazz folded.

The league is not coming. It’s here. The D-League is a legitimate part of day-to-day NBA business and more and more teams are figuring out the advantages and how to use the clubs effectively to find and develop talent. This is not the small piece of packaging it’s made out to be by some. The league operates under conditions where so many players with legitimate talent flame out simply because they’re not ready, and simply disappear. Having a development system that’s legitimate will allow for those players to have successful careers in some cases. Even if it’s just a handful of players saved over a decade, isn’t that worth it, both for the lives of the players and for the teams to get return on investment?

And yet still, we’ve got 19 teams dragging their feet on this. The D-League has maintained it’s not ready for rapid expansion, that it’s honestly handling the most it can at one time. But it’s not like this situation can’t get resolved pretty quickly. It just involves the team throwing some money to get this thing moving. You can set up and establish a D-League team for less than it costs to pay Johan Petro for a year. Think about that. There are costs to run the club, which is going to be more than having a player on squad. But there’s also the hybrid option, first pioneered by the Houston Rockets, who own their affiliate, the Rio Grande Valley Vipers’, basketball operations, while local ownership owns the rest of the team. It’s a cost-effective model for both sides that allows the NBA team to maintain complete control over coaching, training, equipment, and direction.

Why are the Wizards, who have been using D-League talent to fill out their roster for years, not a single-affiliate? Why are the Heat, with gobs and gobs of money, not setting up somewhere to send Norris Cole to work on his patience? Don’t the Clippers need a joint to send players for rehab, for crying out loud?

The more broke teams, you can understand. Charlotte needs every penny it can get.

But we’re approaching a breaking point. The quality of these teams could go up if multiple teams start sending down second-round picks. It could be great for the league. But it could also cause a mess with four teams with different agendas upset over the direction or minutes being distributed. No one’s going to freak out, this is the D-League we’re talking about. But teams should take how their players are treated seriously, how that development goes seriously.

We’re rapidly getting to that point. The league has been very careful not to expand during the shaky economy, nor before nor after the lockout. President Dan Reed has been about as considerate as you can be with growing the league at a steady rate without ballooning too fast. But at this point, it’s beyond the D-League’s control. They’ve built a respectable system that provides talent the league is using. They’ve gotten some of the best teams in the league to buy-in. (The Spurs, the Mavericks, the Lakers, the Thunder, the Knicks, the Nets all have their own affiliate.) At some point the rest of the league needs to get its head out of the sand and quit holding up progress.

The NBA D-League needs to become a true minor-league system, a goal its had since its inception, and one that it’s moved much closer to over the past half-decade. But to get there, the rest of the league has to get over its phobia and understand the potential that’s there. It doesn’t need to be a joke for a top-ten pick to get sent down. If it’s a project big man (*COUGH* ANDRE DRUMMOND* COUGH*) spending a year dominating inferior competition and working on his strength training might be better than throwing him to the wolves right off the bat. The league needs to wake up and realize what’s happening and quit allowing its competition to run circles around it. You’ve got assets. Use them.

(Pro Basketball Talk) (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/30/the-inbounds-its-time-for-nba-teams-to-embrace-the-d-league-future/)

wintermute
11-02-2012, 05:18 PM
It's really that cheap? If that is the case, every franchise should have their own D-League team.


Less than what they're paying Ben Hansbrough? So they get to stock concessions, hire ushers, lease or own a venue for free then?

As atc's link points out, there's the hybrid option where an NBA team pays for (and gets complete control of) basketball operations, while local ownership takes care of the rest. Any profits go to the actual owners - for the NBA team it's a straight up cost.

How much you ask? According to Marc Stein in 2009, it's at most $400k per year. The NBA minimum salary is $474k, so that's the least amount that Ben H. will make (if he doesn't get cut anyway).

Here's Stein's article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090307-08

And relevant portion:



According to a league memo obtained by ESPN.com, NBA teams were informed Thursday that the 2009-10 season in the D-League will introduce what will be known as the "hybrid affiliation."

The new policy will enable an NBA team to assume "full control over all basketball operations of its D-League affiliate, including coaching and player personnel decisions." In return, NBA clubs must make a three-year commitment to covering the expenses for the affiliate's basketball operations, which includes player salaries, paying for the coaching and training staffs and absorbing all travel costs.

The NBA estimates the annual cost of those expenses to be $300,000 to $400,000 annually. Which equates to the single-season amount NBA teams spend on a minimum-salaried rookie.

The cost involved in running all levels of a D-League franchise, by contrast, was estimated by one Western Conference executive as "a million-dollar loss for one year."

So it sounds like a decent bargain.


The highest paid D-League players make something like $30k, which explains the relative low cost of running a D-League team.