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TinManJoshua
10-16-2012, 09:30 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-LeBron-James-Kevin-Durant-Carmelo-Anthony-101012#tab=photo-title=Danny+Granger%252C+Indiana+Pacers&photo=31364726

10. Batum
9. Wallace
8. Gallinari
7. Granger
6. Gay
5. Deng
4. Pierce
3. Anthony
2. Durant
1. James

There's not way Danny should be in the Top 10 and its not even close

Will Galen
10-16-2012, 09:47 PM
I see what you did there! Hehe!

OlBlu
10-16-2012, 09:47 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-LeBron-James-Kevin-Durant-Carmelo-Anthony-101012#tab=photo-title=Danny+Granger%252C+Indiana+Pacers&photo=31364726

10. Batum
9. Wallace
8. Gallinari
7. Granger
6. Gay
5. Deng
4. Pierce
3. Anthony
2. Durant
1. James

There's not way Danny should be in the Top 10 and its not even close

Why? If he isn't in the top ten, he has to be very close....:cool:

Derek2k3
10-16-2012, 09:48 PM
I wouldn't put 8-10 ahead of him, either. I'm actually pretty much fine with this.

Is this the most stacked position in basketball? The top 3 have to be top 5 in all of the NBA, right?


EDIT: I know the Anthony one will probably cause a ruckus, but he's the best pure scorer in the league, despite his other issues. However, I'm thinking maybe a better statement would have been "The top 2 are top 3 in all of the NBA".

LoneGranger33
10-16-2012, 09:57 PM
Is this the most stacked position in basketball? The top 3 have to be top 5 in all of the NBA, right?

Without looking into it any, I'd guess the point guard spot is the deepest in the league.

Derek2k3
10-16-2012, 10:11 PM
Without looking into it any, I'd guess the point guard spot is the deepest in the league.

Yeah, I'd agree "deepest", but I'd still think the SF position probably has 3 of the top 5-10 players in the entire league.

PG's, you have (Off the top of my head, I'm sure I'll miss someone):

Rondo
CP3
D-Will
Nash
Rose
Westbrook
Parker

I don't put any of them ahead of Lebron/Durant, and only Rose and CP3 ahead of Melo. On the flip side, there isn't a center I'd put in the top 5.

I'd probably rank the top 5 players in the league as:
1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Rose (Saw how much that team sucked without him, and we'll see again)
4. CP3
5. Melo

Right after Melo I'd put Kobe, Howard, D-Will and so on.

So, I'd put 3 SF's in the top 5, and 2 PG's. Clearly, the 1 and 3 have more elite players than the 2, 4, and 5.

xBulletproof
10-16-2012, 10:29 PM
Ugh. Can't stand seeing Carmelo anywhere near a top 5 ranking in the NBA. Everyone nags about Grangers shot selection and shooting percentages, but he scores more points per shot than Carmelo, with literally half of the FT attempts.

Derrick Rose is a huge question mark to be honest. He relies on athletic ability more than most. He can't shoot, and isn't a great disributor or court general so if he comes back and has lost anything athletically it's going to be a huge loss to his game. If he can't threaten you with his ridiculous speed like in the past, he's in trouble of never being the same. Everything he gets is out of fear of his acrobatics and athletic ability.

hackashaq
10-16-2012, 11:01 PM
Is this the most stacked position in basketball? The top 3 have to be top 5 in all of the NBA, right?


most talented at the top, but imo it's the 2nd worst in terms of depth, after SG.

I agree with the list btw, more or less. the top 3 is easy. 4 is Pierce still, by a hair. And 5-7 can go in any order. After that, there's a gap.

hackashaq
10-16-2012, 11:05 PM
So Melo>Dwight?..
Melo might be top 5 in talent (among all players), but he's much lower in overall actual impact.

spreedom
10-16-2012, 11:42 PM
That list strikes me as not looking right, but I can't put my finger on who I'd take off the list or move significantly. I've never been a fan of Rudy Gay's game, so I guess I'd bump him down a little bit but it's hard to make a concrete argument for any of the guys below him.

Eleazar
10-17-2012, 01:13 AM
I would move Deng below Granger and Gay other than that this is pretty accurate in my eyes.

Heisenberg
10-17-2012, 01:18 AM
It's really kind of a shame that Melo's such a lazy bum. If you do nothing but watch him score it's seriously a joy, guy's got the full arsenal and probably the best feet in the league, has a nice throwback kind of offensive game.

Hoop
10-17-2012, 02:01 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-LeBron-James-Kevin-Durant-Carmelo-Anthony-101012#tab=photo-title=Danny+Granger%252C+Indiana+Pacers&photo=31364726

10. Batum
9. Wallace
8. Gallinari
7. Granger
6. Gay
5. Deng
4. Pierce
3. Anthony
2. Durant
1. James

There's not way Danny should be in the Top 10 and its not even close


I see what you did there! Hehe!
:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/Hooping/WhatYouDidThere-ISeeIt.jpg

daschysta
10-17-2012, 02:13 AM
Granger had such a rough start to the year that this is fair. If Granger plays like he did post all star break more than like he did pre-all-star break Granger will be fourth on this list next year. Well, depends on if Pierce's game takes another slide. Granger at his best is better than Deng, Iggy and Gay though. Iggy has become quite overrated recently, Deng is really good, but he elected not to have surgery, and that injury killed him last season, and Gay should be better, he has elite tools, but just doesn't put it all together, and doesn't really translate that talent into wins for his team, he's too much of a ball-stopper, and isn't so elite in that regard like Carmelo that it is is somewhat justified. Kobe swears by the treatment Danny got, and Frank seems to think Danny looks sharper than he did all of last year, so, we'll see. I'd really like to see Danny put together a consistent season playing like he did the final 33 last year. 17-18 ppg 6 rpg with the same defensive intensity he showed most of last season on 45-45/39-40/85-90 would be amazing, and it is completely within Danny's ability. He's still arguably our most important player, and his good play translates into wins more often than any other player on our team, plus he's very clutch, hopefully our team gives him a chance to hit some big shots in the playoffs in the years to come.

yoadknux
10-17-2012, 03:34 AM
Deng went from underrated to overrated. He isn't a top 5 SF. Same thing about Noah. If the Bulls have a top 5 SF and a top 5 center why are they going to suck without D.Rose?
As for Gay, when you watch him play you see what type of amazing things he does on offense. But any Memphis fan would tell you the truth about him: He doesn't make his team better at all. He is a ball dominant scorer that needs many shots to be effective.
Pierce is Pierce, he's for sure better than Deng, Gay and Danny

hackashaq
10-17-2012, 04:28 AM
Deng went from underrated to overrated. He isn't a top 5 SF. Same thing about Noah. If the Bulls have a top 5 SF and a top 5 center why are they going to suck without D.Rose?
As for Gay, when you watch him play you see what type of amazing things he does on offense. But any Memphis fan would tell you the truth about him: He doesn't make his team better at all. He is a ball dominant scorer that needs many shots to be effective.
Pierce is Pierce, he's for sure better than Deng, Gay and Danny

how do you know they'll suck? :-p
and what qualifies as sucking? they look like a 45 win team on paper, if main players stay healthy.

OlBlu
10-17-2012, 09:27 AM
So Melo>Dwight?..
Melo might be top 5 in talent (among all players), but he's much lower in overall actual impact.

He does? Ask Coach K and the Olympic team about that......:cool:

vnzla81
10-17-2012, 09:38 AM
Deng went from underrated to overrated. He isn't a top 5 SF. Same thing about Noah. If the Bulls have a top 5 SF and a top 5 center why are they going to suck without D.Rose?

They didn't suck last year without Rose, they had the best record in the east by the way.

Steagles
10-17-2012, 09:57 AM
How is Luol Deng at 5? How?


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Steagles
10-17-2012, 09:58 AM
They didn't suck last year without Rose, they had the best record in the east by the way.

They didn't look too great vs Philly in the playoffs.


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vnzla81
10-17-2012, 10:42 AM
They didn't look too great vs Philly in the playoffs.


Sent from #ColtsNation using Tapatalk

I can't remember well but I'm pretty sure Noah was also out.

vnzla81
10-17-2012, 11:05 AM
I can't remember well but I'm pretty sure Noah was also out.

Yep I was right Noah was out for must of that series against Philly.


http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/5/5/3001195/joakim-noah-injury-ankle-fracture-derrick-rose-chicago-bulls-sixers

Trader Joe
10-17-2012, 11:10 AM
Yep I was right Noah was out for must of that series against Philly.

Yes, this was actually one of the topics of contention at the party. Where would the Bulls be in the East. They had a pretty wide range, a few of us (myself, Peck, Shags, Seth?) thought there would be a drop off, but they would still be very good without Rose. And then a few had them as the 8 seed, I think a couple even had them missing the playoffs?

Anyway, the Bulls will still win a lot in the regular season. They play good D and have enough scoring to get by most nights as long as they don't lose somebody else. Of course Deng and Noah and Boozer have all had injury issues in the past 2 years so that isn't a certainty by any means.

Major Cold
10-17-2012, 11:30 AM
The Bulls not only lost Rose this year, but they lost Asik, CJ Watson, Korver, and Brewer. That is the reason I do not see them being as good as they were last year without Rose.

vnzla81
10-17-2012, 11:42 AM
The Bulls not only lost Rose this year, but they lost Asik, CJ Watson, Korver, and Brewer. That is the reason I do not see them being as good as they were last year without Rose.

Yeah I guess we are gonna have to see how they do, I don't expect them to have the best record in the east but I expect them to be in the middle.

I looks to me like they replaced Watson with Hinrich, Watson has always been underrated in my book,(I think he is equal to DC) but at the end of the day Chicago upgraded with Hinrich by having a better floor general and better defender.

Asik to me was decent and there is not doubt that Brewer and Korver are going to be missed.

By looking at their roster it looks like their starting unit is going to be Hinrich, Hamilton, Deng, Boozer and Noah.

Derek2k3
10-17-2012, 11:55 AM
As much as I can't stand Melo, the guy can offensively take over a game like no one besides Kobe in this league.

As great as Lebron is, if I needed 15 points in the 4th quarter, I'm probably going Melo. That Easter blowup was exactly why he'll be hovering around these lists for the next few years, a supreme offensive talent.

Regarding Rose being "overrated", it'll be very interesting to see if his explosiveness is there in 2012/13. He is ridiculously quick and a great finisher, but without his explosiveness he isn't going to get the calls he always relied on before. It'll be interesting to see.

EDIT: It'll also be fascinating to see how the Bulls respond without Rose early this season. They got worse and worse without him, and ultimately they are just a "very good" team. With Rose, bordering on elite. Still would've taken Miami/Boston over Chicago last season, but I think a healthy Rose this season makes them the clear #2 in the East. I'd be pissed if I was a Bulls fan.

hackashaq
10-17-2012, 12:38 PM
He does? Ask Coach K and the Olympic team about that......:cool:

Coach K's too upset that he can't coach Dirk, doesn't pick up my call

PGisthefuture
10-17-2012, 01:08 PM
I've never understood the hype of Luol Deng. I'd take Danny over him any day.

OlBlu
10-17-2012, 01:11 PM
I've never understood the hype of Luol Deng. I'd take Danny over him any day.

I wouldn't and neither would a lot of NBA teams and coaches...... and, remember, I think Danny certainly deserved to be on this list.....:cool:

hackashaq
10-17-2012, 01:47 PM
I think Danny-Deng-Gay (and Iggy if you count him as SF) is pretty much a coin toss. After last season, i'd take them in that order, but a year ago i would've taken Gay-Deng-Danny.

vnzla81
10-17-2012, 02:14 PM
I've never understood the hype of Luol Deng. I'd take Danny over him any day.

Deng is the current all star, Deng was also the best player(because Rose was out for must of the year) on a team with the best record in the east, there is not hype, the guy deserves (at least at this moment) to be top 5.

Derek2k3
10-17-2012, 03:38 PM
Deng is the current all star, Deng was also the best player(because Rose was out for must of the year) on a team with the best record in the east, there is not hype, the guy deserves (at least at this moment) to be top 5.

And that was with a wrist that was about to fall off.

PGisthefuture
10-17-2012, 03:38 PM
Deng is the current all star, Deng was also the best player(because Rose was out for must of the year) on a team with the best record in the east, there is not hype, the guy deserves (at least at this moment) to be top 5.

I'm not saying that he isn't a good player, he may also be underrated by some. I don't think he is a top 5 SF, Danny is a much better scorer imo. Deng might be the better all-around player, but I just have never really liked his game... compared to Danny's anyways. I'd go LeBron, Durant, Anthony, Pierce, Gay, Granger, Deng.

hackashaq
10-17-2012, 03:42 PM
I'm not saying that he isn't a good player, he may also be underrated by some. I don't think he is a top 5 SF, Danny is a much better scorer imo. Deng might be the better all-around player, but I just have never really liked his game.

Deng's a much better defender, and he played with a bum wrist. Offensively, he should be better next year. When Kobe played with a bum finger, his offense took a little step back too.
If it's based on last year, I'd take Danny also. But I won't be surprised at all if Deng's an All Star again this year, and this time more deservedly.

Eleazar
10-17-2012, 03:48 PM
Deng is the current all star, Deng was also the best player(because Rose was out for must of the year) on a team with the best record in the east, there is not hype, the guy deserves (at least at this moment) to be top 5.

If playing almost 2/3rds of the season is missing most of the season. Not trying to say the Bulls didn't do fine without Rose, they were still almost equal pace with Miami without him, but missing your star player for a chunks at a time isn't the same as not having him for a full season. Often times teams do nearly as well or possibly better for short periods of time without their star player, especially in the regular season.

LoneGranger33
10-17-2012, 03:50 PM
Deng is the current all star, Deng was also the best player(because Rose was out for must of the year) on a team with the best record in the east, there is not hype, the guy deserves (at least at this moment) to be top 5.

Derrick Rose missed 27 regular season games for the Bulls last season (27 out of 66 doesn't translate to "most of the year", even in a lockout-shortened schedule). To be fair to Deng and Co., the Bulls played exceedingly well without Rose, winning at a .667 pace (18-9).

Luol Deng missed 12 regular season games for the Bulls last season. The Bulls had the same winning percentage without Rose as they did without Deng, amassing a 8-4 (.667) record in those contests. There were only three games over the course of the season in which both didn't play. Chicago went 2-1 (.667) in those games.

In the four games Danny Granger missed, the Pacers went 1-3. (Tiny sample size)

PER: 18.68 (DG) > 14.15 (LD)
Danny Granger is the second highest Pacer after Hibbert; Deng is rated 6th behind Rose, Boozer, Noah, Gibson, Lucas

Win-Shares: 6.7 (DG) > 5.8 (LD)
Danny Granger is the highest-ranked Pacer; Deng is 4th behind Rose, Boozer and Noah

Plus-Minus: +295 (DG) < +377 (LD)
Luol Deng is the highest-ranked member of the Bulls, and is the 5th highest in the entire NBA! However, five of his Bulls teammates are in the league's Top 25; Danny Granger is the 16th highest in the NBA, but the only Pacer in the Top 25

I think the most shocking thing was how poorly they both shot from the field last season. Danny's low FG% (.416 in '11-12) is well-documented around these parts - a mark that has declined in each of the last three seasons. Deng had an uncharacteristically poor year as well, shooting just .412 from the field. Gross!

Feel free to draw your own conclusions from the data provided. I don't think it's clear-cut who is a) better and b) more important to their team's success. My loyalty lies with Danny Granger.

hackashaq
10-17-2012, 04:44 PM
However, five of his Bulls teammates are in the league's Top 25; Danny Granger is the 16th highest in the NBA, but the only Pacer in the Top 25


i don't understand what you mean here? what five Deng's teammates are in what top 25? EDIT: you were talking about plus minus, got it.



I think the most shocking thing was how poorly they both shot from the field last season. Danny's low FG% (.416 in '11-12) is well-documented around these parts - a mark that has declined in each of the last three seasons. Deng had an uncharacteristically poor year as well, shooting just .412 from the field. Gross!


that happens when your wrist ligaments are torn up and you are trying to play through it because you expect to compete.

vnzla81
10-17-2012, 05:08 PM
Feel free to draw your own conclusions from the data provided. I don't think it's clear-cut who is a) better and b) more important to their team's success. My loyalty lies with Danny Granger.

My point wasn't to compare one player to another, my point was to prove that putting Deng in that position is not as crazy as some are making it sound here, I think I can say that the coaches agree with me also ;)

By the way I have never been a Deng fan either but I got to watch him in many games last year and the guy played great, his defense won the bulls a lot of games last year, now if you make me choose between "engaged Danny Granger" and him I take Danny, but if you make me choose between "lazy Danny Granger" and him I take Deng.

Sookie
10-17-2012, 05:35 PM
I would move Deng below Granger and Gay other than that this is pretty accurate in my eyes.

Yea, although I hate having Melo so high up there. But at the end of the day, that's where he should be. He's just a huge drop off from Durant.

daschysta
10-17-2012, 08:08 PM
i don't understand what you mean here? what five Deng's teammates are in what top 25? EDIT: you were talking about plus minus, got it.



that happens when your wrist ligaments are torn up and you are trying to play through it because you expect to compete.

Deng still has a bad wrist, he never got it fixed... Bulls fans aren't expecting much offensively from him at all.

Major Cold
10-17-2012, 08:10 PM
Yeah I guess we are gonna have to see how they do, I don't expect them to have the best record in the east but I expect them to be in the middle.

I looks to me like they replaced Watson with Hinrich, Watson has always been underrated in my book,(I think he is equal to DC) but at the end of the day Chicago upgraded with Hinrich by having a better floor general and better defender.

Asik to me was decent and there is not doubt that Brewer and Korver are going to be missed.

By looking at their roster it looks like their starting unit is going to be Hinrich, Hamilton, Deng, Boozer and Noah.


I think if they finish higher than a 7th seed Thibodeau needs to be coach of the year. Deng might have been inefficient but he is a better defender than Danny and slashes waaaay better. I think at the best I would rather have Danny, but not by much. Deng elected not to have surgery in order to play in the Olympics with England. You know Boozer and/or Noah will miss some time. Hinrich is not an iron horse who is never injured. If they are as successful as you think they might​, than Thibodeau is the best coach in the NBA. Hands down.

hackashaq
10-17-2012, 08:48 PM
Deng still has a bad wrist, he never got it fixed... Bulls fans aren't expecting much offensively from him at all.

oh? i wasn't aware. that's a bummer. that's not very smart on his part. he looked awesome in the Olympics, I assumed he fixed it.

graphic-er
10-17-2012, 09:26 PM
IMO Rudy Gay has lost all validation to deserve this ranking. His team did better with out him in the playoffs 2 years ago compared to this past year. He got snubbed from Team USA. I don't even think he is the best player on his team (Z-BO).

Deng is a great player, and I'd put him on par with Granger, he obviously has an extra gear for the defensive end while Granger has an extra gear for the offensive end of the game. But Deng also plays with the most athletic guard in the league, he doesn't have to score 20 a game. Not to mention the offensively geared Boozer.

So I'd still put Granger in my top 5 with Deng just behind.

10. Batum
9. Wallace
8. Gallinari
7. Gay
6. Deng
5. Granger
4. Pierce
3. Anthony
2. Durant
1. James

hackashaq
10-17-2012, 10:03 PM
IMO Rudy Gay has lost all validation to deserve this ranking. His team did better with out him in the playoffs 2 years ago compared to this past year. He got snubbed from Team USA. I don't even think he is the best player on his team (Z-BO).


Don't you think it had something to do with ZBO being injured this year?

daschysta
10-17-2012, 10:10 PM
oh? i wasn't aware. that's a bummer. that's not very smart on his part. he looked awesome in the Olympics, I assumed he fixed it.

Never had surgery, Chicago fans were furious for the most part, because he was awful, awful awful offensively after he injured it.

Compare him to Danny post-asb "Engaged Danny" or "On his game Danny" vs. Luol + (still) injured wrist.

Danny

19.4 ppg
5.4 rpg
1.8 apg
.6 bpg
.7 spg

45 percent from the field
41 percent from 3
90.8 from the line

32.8 mpg

Deng

14.8 ppg
6 rpg
2.5 apg
.6 bpg
1 spg

40.2 percent from the field
33.6 percent from 3
77.9 percent from the line

40.7

Danny vastly outproduced Luol offensively, at vastly higher efficiency in 8 less minutes per game. Luol still is nursing the same injury, he never had surgery, it's not nearly as difficult putting together a few games for your country, which was a vast underdog and didn't play the best competition in the Olympics, as it is to put together a good 82 game season with that injury. In fact is was BECAUSE he wanted to play in the olympics that he opted out of surgery, his patriotism is admirable, but it won't do him any favors next season, and he'll probably be crummy on offense again.

Plus it isn't like Danny was a defensive slouch last year, he wasn't Deng good on defense, but he was so much superior to Deng post-injury on offense that it more than makes up for it.

Comparing the two is the same as ever. Deng is more consistent when healthy, but Danny at his best has always been way better than Deng at his best. If Danny doesn't start off playing the worst ball of his career like he did last season than it isn't really a question between the two. Deng primarily made the game because of who he played for, he isn't the kind of guy to stand out enough on a lesser team and still clearly deserve the spot like Danny was.

Hopefully Vogel isn't just blowing air when he says that Danny looks sharper now than he did at any point last year. Who knows? Kobe Bryant swears by the same procedure that Danny had done on his knee, and he's certainly looking sharp for a 34 year old dude going into his 17th (!) season. I'm hopeful that we get 2009/post ASB last season Danny, who looked like a passable first option closer this year as opposed to 2010-2011 Danny, who looked like 2nd/3rd option type of player ideally. If Danny is "on" next season he'll be considered easily better than the Iguodala's, Dengs, and Gay's of the world, and rightfully be considered alongside Pierce as right below Melo in the best small forwards not named James or Durant category.

CJ Jones
10-18-2012, 02:20 AM
I got Iggy in the top 5. I think he's underrated around here. He might not put up the stats like some of the other guys, but he makes his teammates better, and you can't always find numbers for that.

hackashaq
10-18-2012, 02:39 AM
I got Iggy in the top 5. I think he's underrated around here. He might not put up the stats like some of the other guys, but he makes his teammates better, and you can't always find numbers for that.

yeah, he's probably the one who should be #5, although again the gap is small between him and Danny, Gay and Deng.
But he's going to play SG most of the time in Denver, so they listed him at SG.

Peck
10-18-2012, 02:45 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-LeBron-James-Kevin-Durant-Carmelo-Anthony-101012#tab=photo-title=Danny+Granger%252C+Indiana+Pacers&photo=31364726

10. Batum
9. Wallace
8. Gallinari
7. Granger
6. Gay
5. Deng
4. Pierce
3. Anthony
2. Durant
1. James

There's not way Danny should be in the Top 10 and its not even close

I'm not sure which bothers me more, Gallinari being ranked in the top 10 of small forwards or the fact that I don't disagree with it.

As to Danny, it seems about right to me. I'll agree 100% with Vnzla81 here, I'll take an active and engaged Danny over everyone but the top 4 but the lazy laid back Danny would be hard pressed to crack the top 10. Thankfully he very rarely is not interested.

BRushWithDeath
10-18-2012, 07:36 AM
The fact that you have to choose between "engaged Danny" and "disengaged Danny" is one of the primary reasons I, and pretty much everyone who isn't on this message board, would pick Deng or Gay (and Iggy if he's a 3) ahead of Granger.

OlBlu
10-18-2012, 08:34 AM
The fact that you have to choose between "engaged Danny" and "disengaged Danny" is one of the primary reasons I, and pretty much everyone who isn't on this message board, would pick Deng or Gay (and Iggy if he's a 3) ahead of Granger.

That is exactly right......:cool:

Ace E.Anderson
10-18-2012, 09:32 AM
The fact that you have to choose between "engaged Danny" and "disengaged Danny" is one of the primary reasons I, and pretty much everyone who isn't on this message board, would pick Deng or Gay (and Iggy if he's a 3) ahead of Granger.

As Peck pointed out, when's the last time we've seen "disengaged Danny"? Danny has been more focused and has played harder than ever--most notably ever since Vogel has become our coach. Yes he has a lax game here or there, but who doesnt?

And if we want to talk about a player who's effort is hot and cold, Rudy Gay is not exactly the standard to playing hard all the time. In fact he is a lot worse at this than Danny (in spite of being more talented than DG)


Deng might have been inefficient but he is a better defender than Danny and slashes waaaay better. .

This has been a myth for years. Deng FTA's per game (a pretty good way to gauge who's taking it to the racks) are always well below Danny's. I think Deng is better at coming off the ball and getting into the lane, but I don't think he is a good slasher at all. To say he slashes waaaay better is kind of silly IMO

Peck
10-18-2012, 10:25 AM
The fact that you have to choose between "engaged Danny" and "disengaged Danny" is one of the primary reasons I, and pretty much everyone who isn't on this message board, would pick Deng or Gay (and Iggy if he's a 3) ahead of Granger.

I've watched enough Rudy Gay to know that he more than on occasion will take a night off. I've seen Iggy play a few times where it appeared to be either a Philly game or an episode of the walking dead.

I'm not saying Danny is not wrong for having off nights but let's not pretend like he is the only one who does it. Only the super super star players bring it every night every game & it's always been that way.

Reggie Miller himself has admitted to taking nights off or not getting up for certain teams. When he say's he brought his "A game" to the playoffs doesn't that imply that he wasn't giving his effort every game.

Deng is odd, every time I see him he is the exact same way.

Trader Joe
10-18-2012, 11:31 AM
Charles Barkley said it best last year just before the all star game, the spot Luol Deng got had Danny Granger's name written all over it and Danny basically nuked his chance by starting so slow last year. If Danny comes out and scores 19 or 20 a game this year on 45% shooting from the field, 40% from the arc, and 90% from the FT line it will be tough for anyone to argue against him being higher than Deng and Iggy IMO. That being said, Danny's start last year was ridiculously bad, so I'm not offended at all that people around the NBA would put him behind the rest of those guys.

Major Cold
10-18-2012, 11:48 AM
This has been a myth for years. Deng FTA's per game (a pretty good way to gauge who's taking it to the racks) are always well below Danny's. I think Deng is better at coming off the ball and getting into the lane, but I don't think he is a good slasher at all. To say he slashes waaaay better is kind of silly IMO
That is what a slasher is. To me, there is a difference between a dribble penetrator and a slasher.
And FTAs mean nothing since Danny is our first option and Deng is third...at best.

Ace E.Anderson
10-18-2012, 02:00 PM
That is what a slasher is. To me, there is a difference between a dribble penetrator and a slasher.
And FTAs mean nothing since Danny is our first option and Deng is third...at best.

Deng averages about 9 more minutes and their FGA's are comparable (14.0 for Deng and 15.2 for Danny) so their rank within the offense aside, Deng has just about as many opportunities to get to the basket and the FT line as Danny does.

Yes there is a difference between Slashers and dribble penetrators, but to say Deng is WAYY better in either area a bit of an overstatement

Better? Probably.

Wayy better, I disagree. But that's just my opinion.

Major Cold
10-18-2012, 04:12 PM
Wayy better, I disagree. But that's just my opinion.
It is my opinion that you are wrong. :)

Major Cold
10-18-2012, 05:40 PM
Deng averages about 9 more minutes and their FGA's are comparable (14.0 for Deng and 15.2 for Danny) so their rank within the offense aside, Deng has just about as many opportunities to get to the basket and the FT line as Danny does.

Yes there is a difference between Slashers and dribble penetrators, but to say Deng is WAYY better in either area a bit of an overstatement

Better? Probably.

Wayy better, I disagree. But that's just my opinion.
BTW if Deng gets 9 more minutes then why would he have less FGA? Probably because he has a lesser scoring role than Danny? And since he doesn't have the ball as much as Danny, why would he have more FTA?

Danny is not known fo his back door cuts or cutting in the lane when his man leaves for a double. Danny and other Pacers rotates on the 3pt line to the adjacent elbow. When teams shift over it is the opposite wing that slashes. When Danny is that opposite wing, he rarely slashes in the lane. Deng crashes through on the opposite wing when Boozer/Rose draws a double or a defensive rotation.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/oLajKJiE4JI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KauIidXAC70" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4JZCnjWsxv4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ace E.Anderson
10-18-2012, 06:12 PM
BTW if Deng gets 9 more minutes then why would he have less FGA? Probably because he has a lesser scoring role than Danny? And since he doesn't have the ball as much as Danny, why would he have more FTA?

Danny is not known fo his back door cuts or cutting in the lane when his man leaves for a double. Danny and other Pacers rotates on the 3pt line to the adjacent elbow. When teams shift over it is the opposite wing that slashes. When Danny is that opposite wing, he rarely slashes in the lane. Deng crashes through on the opposite wing when Boozer/Rose draws a double or a defensive rotation.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/oLajKJiE4JI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KauIidXAC70" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4JZCnjWsxv4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Danny averages one more shot attempt a game in nearly 10 less minutes. That's far from a significant difference when you compare their MPG. Also Danny is a superior 3pt shooter so yes he is more likely to drift for a 3 as opposed to cutting to the basket. The bulls offense is designed for those back cuts. Guys like Noah and Boozer can make that pass so that guys like Deng, Ronnie Brewer excelled at finishing.

Good Slashers normally get to the line at a high rate bc they get shots in traffic and near the rim. If a guy is considered much better at this skill, I'd expect them to average more than 3 FTA a game.

CJ Jones
10-18-2012, 06:44 PM
You got to cut hard to the rim and make shots in the paint to be considered a slasher. Danny's a jumpshooter who gets to the line off dribble penetration which doesn't help anyone but himself because he's not looking to set anyone up.

Dannys got a very selfish game. That's what seperates him from guys like PIerce, Iggy, and even Deng. I got a feeling if players were asked their top 10 or who'd they rather play with, their lists would be much different than ours here at PD.

Major Cold
10-18-2012, 10:57 PM
Danny averages one more shot attempt a game in nearly 10 less minutes. That's far from a significant difference when you compare their MPG. Also Danny is a superior 3pt shooter so yes he is more likely to drift for a 3 as opposed to cutting to the basket. The bulls offense is designed for those back cuts. Guys like Noah and Boozer can make that pass so that guys like Deng, Ronnie Brewer excelled at finishing.

Good Slashers normally get to the line at a high rate bc they get shots in traffic and near the rim. If a guy is considered much better at this skill, I'd expect them to average more than 3 FTA a game.

Look shots per minute is pretty telling.
Deng shoots a FGA every 2.8 minutes
Danny shoots a FGA every 2.1 minutes

Whether they get to the line or not does not matter. Slashers do not get to the FT as much because they usually have a wide open bucket. Watch the two play. Danny would rather shoot. It is who he is. And if he played on the Bulls he would be much more effective than Deng in their offense when they had Brewer (another slasher). If Deng played here I really think he might score better than he does in Chicago, because Paul compliments him.

I really don't want to use last year anyway.
10-11 show a better season for both.

Deng

<tbody>
Shot Distance
At Rim (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=denglu01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=0-3)
244
372
.656
0
0

.656
142
.582



3 to 9 ft (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=denglu01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=3-10)
96
215
.447
0
0

.447
51
.531



10 to 15 ft (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=denglu01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=10-16)
31
98
.316
0
0

.316
18
.581



16 ft to 3-pt (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=denglu01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=16-3P)
121
299
.405
0
0

.405
97
.802



3-pt (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=denglu01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=3P)
137
401
.342
137
401
.342
.512
132
.964


</tbody>


Granger


<tbody>
Shot Distance
At Rim (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=grangda01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=0-3)
178
286
.622
0
0

.622
68
.382



3 to 9 ft (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=grangda01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=3-10)
70
188
.372
0
0

.372
19
.271



10 to 15 ft (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=grangda01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=10-16)
49
127
.386
0
0

.386
13
.265



16 ft to 3-pt (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=grangda01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=16-3P)
116
319
.364
0
0

.364
47
.405



3-pt (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=grangda01&year_id=2011&shot_distance=3P)
165
430
.384
165
430
.384
.576
145
.879

</tbody>


Players normally get to the line, when they dribble penetrate or iso mid range. That is not Deng's game. He hits the open spot on the floor and when the ball rotates he spots up or slashers. Rarely does he dribble the ball, Pick and Roll, or Triple Threat. Danny gets his FTA on dribble penetrations and post ups. Danny is a much better scorer, but he does not move well without the ball. How is this not news to you?

CJ Jones
10-19-2012, 01:04 AM
Dayum! Where do you guys find all these stats?

cgg
10-19-2012, 01:20 AM
hoopdata.com
82games.com
basketballreference.com

CJ Jones
10-19-2012, 01:47 AM
hmmm wasn't familiar with hoopdata. Very cool site. Thnx

Looking at the splits, it's strange how much better Danny's all around game is when his shots falling compared to when it's not. I didn't go back to years past, but I'd assume there's a pattern. That lack of consistency is what bothers folks I believe. He's either really good or terrible. Doesn't seem to be much middle ground with Danny.