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Peck
10-13-2012, 02:02 AM
Ok again right up front letís be clear that I understand this was another pre-season game & therefore everything I say below must be taken in the context that I understand that this is neither a finished product, the lineups we will see or even the lineups of the other team and how it would impact our team.

Now having said that I am here to eat crow on a couple of things.

First and foremost Ian Mahinmi is much larger than I thought he was, I mean much. I honestly never paid any attention to him in Dallas & well I really liked (still do btw) Lou Amundson so I always was aghast when people would say how much happier they were with his size when officially they are listed as only two inches apart in height.

Well allow me right now to put that to bed. Standing side by side on the floor next to each other it wasnít even close. Ian looked more like 7í and Lou looked about 6í7Ē tall and it didnít end there. Ian is also much wider than Lou is.

Also game wise there is just a world of difference between the two tonight (again pre-season but Iíve seen Lou play enough to know what he can give us). Ian looked at times like he was starting center material out there. Iím sure he was playing above his head tonight and Iím not sure how many min. he put up directly vs. Pekovic but what I saw out of him tonight is now making me question how good I think this team can be.

I certainly donít want to base to much on a pre-season game vs. an opponent that isnít fielding itís best lineup but Iíll just say I am much more optimistic after the game than I was before.

This guy not only has legitimate size but he also has soft hands. Paul George rocketed a pass into the post that not a lot of big men could handle but he tapped it back to himself and scored basket.

I donít think we got to see what he can do defensively much tonight as things were played pretty hectically but still anytime you can come away with 2 blocks & 3 steals your doing something right.

I still donít like the trade because he could have been signed outright & Collison could have been used to sweeten a deal to move Tyler, but if I look at it as we traded a high quality backup point guard for a high quality back up center I can live with it.

Ok, here is everybodyís chance to take their shots at me. I really screwed up the Gerald Green vs. Sam Young thing. At least for tonight anyway & I have a feeling since seeing both of them play that this is probably the norm.

Good God Green can sky. I donít know if they showed it on TV or not but when he came down from that alley oop dunk from Ben Hansbrough he saluted Derrick Williams and earned himself a technical foul. If they say it was hanging on the rim just laugh at them because he honest to God saluted him after he dunked that, it was glorious btw.
He is active, he is longer than I thought (in fact I have a feeling that this is going to become a theme this year we now have several long athletic players) and he was able to work over the Wolves defenders pretty handily. His defense also was not half bad.

So between Green & Mahinmi Iím more than willing to eat my words, I was pretty much dead wrong about both of them.

On the other hand, and I know this isnít going to go over real well, I have not thought much of Augustine. Yes he had some good passes but his defense just turns my stomach. Iím not even sure what it is that he is doing so poorly but it just seems like whatever point guard he is playing can just get to whatever spot on the floor that they want to & he doesnít offer much resistance.

Maybe when I see him as the backup & I donít have to see him face starters I will get more used to his style of play, but so far I just havenít been all that impressed.

But if I have to worry about our backup point guard then in reality I think weíve got it pretty good. Remember when not long ago when our third string point guard wasnít that much worse than our starter? My have times have changed, clearly Hill is the top dog & we go from there.

Obviously after tonightís game Ben Hansbrough is on all of our minds. Letís not forget that the outstanding dunk by Green was there because Psycho B made an absolutely perfect pass to him from out of bounds.

Now the question is, does tonightís game really mean anything or was this just one of those special nights that a player hits on every now and then?

Iím guessing he is good but he is not going to be that good very often.

But it brings up an interesting question that Duke Dynamite must be credited with asking.

With what you have seen so far does Lance Stephenson really deserve to make the team above Ben? Youíll laugh at first but then the more you think about it youíll start to wonder has Lance every really had this good of an overall game? I donít know the answer to that btw. I know he has had a couple of really good offensive games but Ben tonight was just everywhere & he was a very large part of why we made a second half comeback run.

Now if you donít want to go so far as to say cut Lance then has what Orlando Johnson shown you so far merited making the team above Ben? Not sure.

Obviously both of them still have that Potential thing going for them but still, I think it would be hard to tell Ben Hansbrough he was cut after tonightís game. Now if he doesnít even come close to producing this again sure. Honestly in tonightís game I thought he was better than Augustine, however I will also point out that he wasnít playing vs. Barea either.

David West certainly has toned up his upper torso more than last year, if such a thing is possible. However he seemed to be moving like he was in cement and made no effort on the boards which was disappointing. But that offense of his sure is hard to stop.

I know it is wrong to say this but Iím sorry from all of the times Iíve seen him on the floor Jeff Pendegraph is limited (that is being very polite btw). Stat wise he did ok but just watching him play hurts my eyes.

Miles Plumlee needs to learn to get after it on the defensive end a little better, there were a couple of times that I thought he either could have gotten to or at least altered a shot and he didnít even make an effort at doing so. But offensively I think he may be a little better than what we were lead to believe.

Overall this was a very fun game to be at and honestly I walk away a little more optimistic than when I went in & I was pretty optimistic going in.

But hey I may change my mind 100 more times (or more) before the start of regular season.

Foul on Smits
10-13-2012, 02:18 AM
Ok again right up front letís be clear that I understand this was another pre-season game & therefore everything I say below must be taken in the context that I understand that this is neither a finished product, the lineups we will see or even the lineups of the other team and how it would impact our team.

Now having said that I am here to eat crow on a couple of things.

First and foremost Ian Mahinmi is much larger than I thought he was, I mean much. I honestly never paid any attention to him in Dallas & well I really liked (still do btw) Lou Amundson so I always was aghast when people would say how much happier they were with his size when officially they are listed as only two inches apart in height.

Well allow me right now to put that to bed. Standing side by side on the floor next to each other it wasnít even close. Ian looked more like 7í and Lou looked about 6í7Ē tall and it didnít end there. Ian is also much wider than Lou is.

Also game wise there is just a world of difference between the two tonight (again pre-season but Iíve seen Lou play enough to know what he can give us). Ian looked at times like he was starting center material out there. Iím sure he was playing above his head tonight and Iím not sure how many min. he put up directly vs. Pekovic but what I saw out of him tonight is now making me question how good I think this team can be.

I certainly donít want to base to much on a pre-season game vs. an opponent that isnít fielding itís best lineup but Iíll just say I am much more optimistic after the game than I was before.

This guy not only has legitimate size but he also has soft hands. Paul George rocketed a pass into the post that not a lot of big men could handle but he tapped it back to himself and scored basket.

I donít think we got to see what he can do defensively much tonight as things were played pretty hectically but still anytime you can come away with 2 blocks & 3 steals your doing something right.

I still donít like the trade because he could have been signed outright & Collison could have been used to sweeten a deal to move Tyler, but if I look at it as we traded a high quality backup point guard for a high quality back up center I can live with it.

Ok, here is everybodyís chance to take their shots at me. I really screwed up the Gerald Green vs. Sam Young thing. At least for tonight anyway & I have a feeling since seeing both of them play that this is probably the norm.

Good God Green can sky. I donít know if they showed it on TV or not but when he came down from that alley oop dunk from Ben Hansbrough he saluted Derrick Williams and earned himself a technical foul. If they say it was hanging on the rim just laugh at them because he honest to God saluted him after he dunked that, it was glorious btw.
He is active, he is longer than I thought (in fact I have a feeling that this is going to become a theme this year we now have several long athletic players) and he was able to work over the Wolves defenders pretty handily. His defense also was not half bad.

So between Green & Mahinmi Iím more than willing to eat my words, I was pretty much dead wrong about both of them.

On the other hand, and I know this isnít going to go over real well, I have not thought much of Augustine. Yes he had some good passes but his defense just turns my stomach. Iím not even sure what it is that he is doing so poorly but it just seems like whatever point guard he is playing can just get to whatever spot on the floor that they want to & he doesnít offer much resistance.

Maybe when I see him as the backup & I donít have to see him face starters I will get more used to his style of play, but so far I just havenít been all that impressed.

But if I have to worry about our backup point guard then in reality I think weíve got it pretty good. Remember when not long ago when our third string point guard wasnít that much worse than our starter? My have times have changed, clearly Hill is the top dog & we go from there.

Obviously after tonightís game Ben Hansbrough is on all of our minds. Letís not forget that the outstanding dunk by Green was there because Psycho B made an absolutely perfect pass to him from out of bounds.

Now the question is, does tonightís game really mean anything or was this just one of those special nights that a player hits on every now and then?

Iím guessing he is good but he is not going to be that good very often.

But it brings up an interesting question that Duke Dynamite must be credited with asking.

With what you have seen so far does Lance Stephenson really deserve to make the team above Ben? Youíll laugh at first but then the more you think about it youíll start to wonder has Lance every really had this good of an overall game? I donít know the answer to that btw. I know he has had a couple of really good offensive games but Ben tonight was just everywhere & he was a very large part of why we made a second half comeback run.

Now if you donít want to go so far as to say cut Lance then has what Orlando Johnson shown you so far merited making the team above Ben? Not sure.

Obviously both of them still have that Potential thing going for them but still, I think it would be hard to tell Ben Hansbrough he was cut after tonightís game. Now if he doesnít even come close to producing this again sure. Honestly in tonightís game I thought he was better than Augustine, however I will also point out that he wasnít playing vs. Barea either.

David West certainly has toned up his upper torso more than last year, if such a thing is possible. However he seemed to be moving like he was in cement and made no effort on the boards which was disappointing. But that offense of his sure is hard to stop.

I know it is wrong to say this but Iím sorry from all of the times Iíve seen him on the floor Jeff Pendegraph is limited (that is being very polite btw). Stat wise he did ok but just watching him play hurts my eyes.

Miles Plumlee needs to learn to get after it on the defensive end a little better, there were a couple of times that I thought he either could have gotten to or at least altered a shot and he didnít even make an effort at doing so. But offensively I think he may be a little better than what we were lead to believe.

Overall this was a very fun game to be at and honestly I walk away a little more optimistic than when I went in & I was pretty optimistic going in.

But hey I may change my mind 100 more times (or more) before the start of regular season.



I may have to reevaluate Gerald Green. I knew he could fly. I didnt know he had a silky smooth back to basket game. He dropped a few fall away jumpers that looked fantastic. This kid has really worked on his game. I'm really excited.

Strummer
10-13-2012, 02:18 AM
Didn't get to see the game. How did Ben look on defense? He's listed at 6'3" which is nice size for a backup point guard. I read that we went on an 18-0 run with him in there so his D must not have hurt us any.

Peck
10-13-2012, 02:20 AM
Didn't get to see the game. How did Ben look on defense? He's listed at 6'3" which is nice size for a backup point guard. I read that we went on an 18-0 run with him in there so his D must not have hurt us any.

Pesky would be the word I would choose to use. He only got one steal but he caused Conroy to turn it over several times & never got burned.

Heisenberg
10-13-2012, 02:38 AM
Lou looked 6'7 because he IS 6'7, I don't care what he's listed at, he's shorter than Danny. Anyway, Ian had a really nice game, but he was playing above his head a bit, he's not going to play like that nightly (well, maybe I guess but I doubt it). He must've had stick'um on his hands because usually he's fumbling the ball everywhere.

Far as Lance v. Psycho B, just no. It's one preseason game. I'm no fan of Lance but I'm not about to say someone deserves a roster spot because of one nice preseason game. I will say if it weren't for his guaranteed contract (which is a calculated move from the front office with 2nd round picks that is potentially really savvy) Orlando Johnson has no place in the NBA. Hope OJ likes Fort Wayne.

Mourning
10-13-2012, 04:08 AM
God I'm glad you write these pieces. I always get giddy when I see a new one up :thumbsup:.

Strummer
10-13-2012, 04:44 AM
With what you have seen so far does Lance Stephenson really deserve to make the team above Ben? You’ll laugh at first but then the more you think about it you’ll start to wonder has Lance every really had this good of an overall game? I don’t know the answer to that btw. I know he has had a couple of really good offensive games but Ben tonight was just everywhere & he was a very large part of why we made a second half comeback run.


Couldn't sleep so I decided to research Ben a bit, mainly on Wikipedia. Looks like he spent 5 years in college at Mississippi State and Notre Dame. I assume the extra year was just because he transferred. And he played last year in Europe.

He's nearly 3 years older than Lance. Lance spent 1 year in college and 2 years riding the bench for the Pacers. He should only be a college senior now, had he stayed in school.

So even though Lance has been in the NBA 2 years, it doesn't seem all that odd that Ben would have a more refined game. Ben put the time in in college and was quite successful.

And I don't think we're at the point where we'd need to clear a spot for Ben anyway. Assuming we keep Young then we still have one spot open. True, we'd like to save that spot for an emergency. But if the Pacers decide to keep Ben, they wouldn't need to cut anyone immediately. If you're going to cut a player with a guaranteed contract (Lance or OJ as proposed) it doesn't matter if you do it now or when you need the roster spot later. You might as well wait and if everyone else stays healthy you wouldn't have to cut either one this season.

MvPlumlee
10-13-2012, 06:59 AM
Have we ever seen Lance doing something similar as Ben? Good play after good play after good play? I haven't.
He still has some games left, maybe Frank should give him his freedom in one game.

I know it's early, but Pendergraph doesn't look like he will ever be more than a decent 5th big.
Orlando and Plumlee might be old rookies, but they are still rookies. I'm willing to be patient with them. Someone just has to tell OJ that it isn't against the rules to put the ball through the hoop.
Young, I thought, had a bit of an offday. I hope.

Very interesting literature as usual, Peck, but is there a reason why u always write Augustin with a "e" at the end?

Kemo
10-13-2012, 07:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkpoADK8GfI

Heisenberg
10-13-2012, 07:46 AM
Have we ever seen Lance doing something similar as Ben? Good play after good play after good play? I haven't.
He still has some games left, maybe Frank should give him his freedom in one game.

I know it's early, but Pendergraph doesn't look like he will ever be more than a decent 5th big.
Orlando and Plumlee might be old rookies, but they are still rookies. I'm willing to be patient with them. Someone just has to tell OJ that it isn't against the rules to put the ball through the hoop.
Young, I thought, had a bit of an offday. I hope.

Very interesting literature as usual, Peck, but is there a reason why u always write Augustin with a "e" at the end?Like I said, I'm not much of a Lance fan, but he's killed the summer league twice now and had a (one! read all about it! a single game!) real NBA game (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201204250IND.html) where he did really well.

Ben Hansrbrough is still not an NBA player and should not make the roster. I'm fine with cutting ties with both, but the idea that little B has earned a spot over Lance is laughable.

owl
10-13-2012, 08:23 AM
Lou looked 6'7 because he IS 6'7, I don't care what he's listed at, he's shorter than Danny. Anyway, Ian had a really nice game, but he was playing above his head a bit, he's not going to play like that nightly (well, maybe I guess but I doubt it). He must've had stick'um on his hands because usually he's fumbling the ball everywhere.

Far as Lance v. Psycho B, just no. It's one preseason game. I'm no fan of Lance but I'm not about to say someone deserves a roster spot because of one nice preseason game. I will say if it weren't for his guaranteed contract (which is a calculated move from the front office with 2nd round picks that is potentially really savvy) Orlando Johnson has no place in the NBA. Hope OJ likes Fort Wayne.

Problem is I have never seen Lance have a game like Ben had last night. He has more court awareness than Lance.

MvPlumlee
10-13-2012, 08:54 AM
Like I said, I'm not much of a Lance fan, but he's killed the summer league twice now and had a (one! read all about it! a single game!) real NBA game (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201204250IND.html) where he did really well.

Ben Hansrbrough is still not an NBA player and should not make the roster. I'm fine with cutting ties with both, but the idea that little B has earned a spot over Lance is laughable.

Yeah, I didn't watch that game. :) More players have done great in summer league, but never in a real NBA game and if there is one game in regular season where motivation is comparable with preseason and SL games it is most likely the last game of the season.

For me, it just about how much you belief you have in a player and yes I never had that with Lance. For Ben, it is just one game and I'm not going to say that he is going to make the team, but there is something about his game that makes me believe he could be useful in some way sooner or later. We'll see.

McKeyFan
10-13-2012, 08:55 AM
Like I said, I'm not much of a Lance fan, but he's killed the summer league twice now and had a (one! read all about it! a single game!)
That single game (last of season and didn't matter) is the only one I can think of where he played an extensive amount of time and was allowed to make mistakes.

McKeyFan
10-13-2012, 08:57 AM
Problem is I have never seen Lance have a game like Ben had last night. He has more court awareness than Lance.

Ben has more solid leadership at point right now than Lance. Ben has decent court vision, not great. Lance has great court vision.

McKeyFan
10-13-2012, 08:58 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkpoADK8GfI

Peck, the salute barely gets seen at the very end.

:D

OakMoses
10-13-2012, 09:15 AM
For those of you who are surprised about Green, you need to discard everything you remember from Green's first NBA stint. What he showed in half a season last year is what he did last night and, hopefully, what we'll get this season.

Green has 6th man of the year potential.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

Anthem
10-13-2012, 09:21 AM
I'm hardly the biggest Lance fan on the board. But like Mr. Uncertainty said, it's ridiculous to claim that Ben has shown more than Lance. Ben looked awful all the way through summer league, and looked awful in our first preseason game. I was calling us to cut the four camp players, and not one person said "No, we should keep Psycho B."

Travis D had occasional good games, too. Heck, so did AJ Price. Young Hans may end up being a rotational NBA player, but so far he's not shown more than Lance.

xIndyFan
10-13-2012, 10:06 AM
Didn't get to see the game. How did Ben look on defense? He's listed at 6'3" which is nice size for a backup point guard. I read that we went on an 18-0 run with him in there so his D must not have hurt us any.


Pesky would be the word I would choose to use. He only got one steal but he caused Conroy to turn it over several times & never got burned.

jmo, but I thought his defense was pretty bad. Conroy mostly went wherever he wanted, whenever he wanted. Ben's presence was about as effective as mine would have been. Ben did look nice offensively, but I never got the impression that Ben could bring the ball up court against any kind of pressure. I just didn't see an NBA player when he played.

Ben did have a nice game, but nothing he did couldn't be done by any good D-League PG. Given the choice between Travis Dernier and Ben Hansbrough, I would take Travis every time.

Goyle
10-13-2012, 10:52 AM
Wouldn't Ben be able to make the team if we were to cut Gaines and Ahearn?

duke dynamite
10-13-2012, 10:57 AM
From the post-game interview last night Coach stated that he's seen Ben play very well in practice lately which has warranted the extended playing time.

I just don't like Lance. I think Larry coveted him his first two years and gave everyone a false sense of how valuable he can be to this team. He's only good in the Summer League and games that don't matter. Except these first two in which he's been horrible. Just out there wandering around the court.

Sorry folks, you may like him, but he's worthless to me.

vnzla81
10-13-2012, 11:14 AM
Ben has more solid leadership at point right now than Lance. Ben has decent court vision, not great. Lance has great court vision.

I think their floor vision is pretty close, I saw Ben making passes that I have not seen a Pacers point guard make in a long time(since Tinsley), he made at least five passes that I was like wow, he is also able to make simple passes, like feeding the post and simple pick and rolls.

Note that I know is a preseason game.

PacerDude
10-13-2012, 11:19 AM
Wouldn't Ben be able to make the team if we were to cut Gaines and Ahearn?
And why would they want to do that ??

Trader Joe
10-13-2012, 12:32 PM
Our out of bounds plays are going to be a lot of fun this season.

CJ Jones
10-13-2012, 01:15 PM
lil handsbro wont make the team over lance :tsk:. he had a good game but any one of lances good summer league games is more impressive to me. at least it was against nba competition. handsbros gonna have hard time bringing the ball up against pressure d. remember sarunas? collison would eat him alive with full court pressure.

that said i need to see more effort from lance on d and less jumpers and more driving. i think frank and the coaches have got in the head of lance and pendy by telling them get shots up when both of their strengths are in the paint.

Major Cold
10-13-2012, 02:12 PM
If this seriously is making everyone think that Ben is better than Lance, then the Regular Season cannot come soon enough. After all the practices and Preseason games I am sure the coaching staff will be able to make that call. But one preseason game against no point pressure to speak of is not grounds to crown him our third PG and the cutting of Lance.

PaceBalls
10-13-2012, 02:14 PM
I don't think Lance would be cut to make room for Ben, they have alot invested in Lance.
But, I'd love to see Ben make the team over someone else!

PaceBalls
10-13-2012, 02:25 PM
If this seriously is making everyone think that Ben is better than Lance, then the Regular Season cannot come soon enough. After all the practices and Preseason games I am sure the coaching staff will be able to make that call. But one preseason game against no point pressure to speak of is not grounds to crown him our third PG and the cutting of Lance.

Not that I disagree necessarily, but what has Lance ever shown that would make anyone think he is better than Ben? To me they are both wildcards, it's just Lance has been with the club for 2 freakin years and can't crack the rotation.

Pacergeek
10-13-2012, 03:05 PM
I don't think Lance would be cut to make room for Ben, they have alot invested in Lance.
But, I'd love to see Ben make the team over someone else!

We should cut Tyler and keep Ben. How awkward would that be?

Major Cold
10-13-2012, 06:28 PM
Not that I disagree necessarily, but what has Lance ever shown that would make anyone think he is better than Ben? To me they are both wildcards, it's just Lance has been with the club for 2 freakin years and can't crack the rotation.


Being a prospect WE do not know. Practice is not the only thing. Lance did not have a break out season last year. I know that burns some of you all. Early last year he was clearly not our Point of the future. In blowout minutes, no one wants to use. The Bulls game means nothing.

If you want to take anything substantial from last year is that his defense was a lot better. He needs to show consistency this year on both ends when given the time. But to say that one preseason game from Ben equates all the practice improvements and defensive improvements. is evidence that you are easily enamored with the here and now.

BRushWithDeath
10-15-2012, 11:19 AM
I am certainly not Lance's biggest fan on this board and wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with cutting him but if you sincerely think that cutting him to make room for Ben Hansbrough is either a possibility or a good idea, you need to have your head examined.

Sparhawk
10-15-2012, 11:55 AM
Lance is making pocket change. He isn't getting cut.

Lance, I still believe!

pacer4ever
10-15-2012, 12:30 PM
I am certainly not Lance's biggest fan on this board and wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with cutting him but if you sincerely think that cutting him to make room for Ben Hansbrough is either a possibility or a good idea, you need to have your head examined.

Best post of the thread(besides peck's) not only basketball wise it makes no sense. But cutting a guaranteed deal for a 15th man emergency 5th guard would be so lol. I can't imagine how that talk with Herb would go.

I dont get the love for the guy plenty of guys have played a good preseason game and tons of them are still playing in China or Euro likley Ben will be there too.

But good for him he probably just earned himself a better contract over seas.

Unclebuck
10-15-2012, 01:05 PM
I did not see the game, but I would be careful about evaluating a player based upon one preseason game or even a whole series of preseason games.

Ballerzfan
10-15-2012, 07:54 PM
I like Psycho B but IF they keep him we'll be seeing Cabbages 2.0.

spazzxb
10-16-2012, 05:06 AM
Ok again right up front letís be clear that I understand this was another pre-season game & therefore everything I say below must be taken in the context that I understand that this is neither a finished product, the lineups we will see or even the lineups of the other team and how it would impact our team.

Now having said that I am here to eat crow on a couple of things.

First and foremost Ian Mahinmi is much larger than I thought he was, I mean much. I honestly never paid any attention to him in Dallas & well I really liked (still do btw) Lou Amundson so I always was aghast when people would say how much happier they were with his size when officially they are listed as only two inches apart in height.

Well allow me right now to put that to bed. Standing side by side on the floor next to each other it wasnít even close. Ian looked more like 7í and Lou looked about 6í7Ē tall and it didnít end there. Ian is also much wider than Lou is.

Also game wise there is just a world of difference between the two tonight (again pre-season but Iíve seen Lou play enough to know what he can give us). Ian looked at times like he was starting center material out there. Iím sure he was playing above his head tonight and Iím not sure how many min. he put up directly vs. Pekovic but what I saw out of him tonight is now making me question how good I think this team can be.

I certainly donít want to base to much on a pre-season game vs. an opponent that isnít fielding itís best lineup but Iíll just say I am much more optimistic after the game than I was before.

This guy not only has legitimate size but he also has soft hands. Paul George rocketed a pass into the post that not a lot of big men could handle but he tapped it back to himself and scored basket.

I donít think we got to see what he can do defensively much tonight as things were played pretty hectically but still anytime you can come away with 2 blocks & 3 steals your doing something right.

I still donít like the trade because he could have been signed outright & Collison could have been used to sweeten a deal to move Tyler, but if I look at it as we traded a high quality backup point guard for a high quality back up center I can live with it.

Ok, here is everybodyís chance to take their shots at me. I really screwed up the Gerald Green vs. Sam Young thing. At least for tonight anyway & I have a feeling since seeing both of them play that this is probably the norm.

Good God Green can sky. I donít know if they showed it on TV or not but when he came down from that alley oop dunk from Ben Hansbrough he saluted Derrick Williams and earned himself a technical foul. If they say it was hanging on the rim just laugh at them because he honest to God saluted him after he dunked that, it was glorious btw.
He is active, he is longer than I thought (in fact I have a feeling that this is going to become a theme this year we now have several long athletic players) and he was able to work over the Wolves defenders pretty handily. His defense also was not half bad.

So between Green & Mahinmi Iím more than willing to eat my words, I was pretty much dead wrong about both of them.

On the other hand, and I know this isnít going to go over real well, I have not thought much of Augustine. Yes he had some good passes but his defense just turns my stomach. Iím not even sure what it is that he is doing so poorly but it just seems like whatever point guard he is playing can just get to whatever spot on the floor that they want to & he doesnít offer much resistance.

Maybe when I see him as the backup & I donít have to see him face starters I will get more used to his style of play, but so far I just havenít been all that impressed.

But if I have to worry about our backup point guard then in reality I think weíve got it pretty good. Remember when not long ago when our third string point guard wasnít that much worse than our starter? My have times have changed, clearly Hill is the top dog & we go from there.

Obviously after tonightís game Ben Hansbrough is on all of our minds. Letís not forget that the outstanding dunk by Green was there because Psycho B made an absolutely perfect pass to him from out of bounds.

Now the question is, does tonightís game really mean anything or was this just one of those special nights that a player hits on every now and then?

Iím guessing he is good but he is not going to be that good very often.

But it brings up an interesting question that Duke Dynamite must be credited with asking.

With what you have seen so far does Lance Stephenson really deserve to make the team above Ben? Youíll laugh at first but then the more you think about it youíll start to wonder has Lance every really had this good of an overall game? I donít know the answer to that btw. I know he has had a couple of really good offensive games but Ben tonight was just everywhere & he was a very large part of why we made a second half comeback run.

Now if you donít want to go so far as to say cut Lance then has what Orlando Johnson shown you so far merited making the team above Ben? Not sure.

Obviously both of them still have that Potential thing going for them but still, I think it would be hard to tell Ben Hansbrough he was cut after tonightís game. Now if he doesnít even come close to producing this again sure. Honestly in tonightís game I thought he was better than Augustine, however I will also point out that he wasnít playing vs. Barea either.

David West certainly has toned up his upper torso more than last year, if such a thing is possible. However he seemed to be moving like he was in cement and made no effort on the boards which was disappointing. But that offense of his sure is hard to stop.

I know it is wrong to say this but Iím sorry from all of the times Iíve seen him on the floor Jeff Pendegraph is limited (that is being very polite btw). Stat wise he did ok but just watching him play hurts my eyes.

Miles Plumlee needs to learn to get after it on the defensive end a little better, there were a couple of times that I thought he either could have gotten to or at least altered a shot and he didnít even make an effort at doing so. But offensively I think he may be a little better than what we were lead to believe.

Overall this was a very fun game to be at and honestly I walk away a little more optimistic than when I went in & I was pretty optimistic going in.

But hey I may change my mind 100 more times (or more) before the start of regular season.

First preseason game and your already going after Lance. Why wouldn't you name a point guard instead of our 2nd and third string SG if you want to campaign for Ben? Is there a third string PG your in love with. Isn't there an open competition for the third point guard spot. Do you want Ben to be the fourth? Could you explain why you are targeting Lance and Orlando?

spazzxb
10-16-2012, 05:13 AM
Like I said, I'm not much of a Lance fan, but he's killed the summer league twice now and had a (one! read all about it! a single game!) real NBA game (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201204250IND.html) where he did really well.

Ben Hansrbrough is still not an NBA player and should not make the roster. I'm fine with cutting ties with both, but the idea that little B has earned a spot over Lance is laughable.

I can name three. He Had great games against William(New Jersey), Atlanta(ran Teague off the floor), and obviously the last game he got significant minutes in(Chicago with Rose).

Steagles
10-16-2012, 08:46 AM
God I missed these. I love Pacers season.

BRushWithDeath
10-16-2012, 09:03 AM
First preseason game and your already going after Lance. Why wouldn't you name a point guard instead of our 2nd and third string SG if you want to campaign for Ben? Is there a third string PG your in love with. Isn't there an open competition for the third point guard spot. Do you want Ben to be the fourth? Could you explain why you are targeting Lance and Orlando?

Neither guy is remotely threatened by Ben Hansbrough but why would anybody be the slightest bit upset if we cut Lance? He's got an unguaranteed contract but more importantly he has contributed next to nothing in his two years here.

Well, nothing but bad some bad PR and hilarious Bird trolling.

Mourning
10-16-2012, 10:05 AM
Because he might very well start contributing in the very near future? That's a chance you take or don't take, but it's not a ridiculous notion or something to want to waite a little to see how a player develops.

naptownmenace
10-16-2012, 10:10 AM
I'm hardly the biggest Lance fan on the board. But like Mr. Uncertainty said, it's ridiculous to claim that Ben has shown more than Lance. Ben looked awful all the way through summer league, and looked awful in our first preseason game. I was calling us to cut the four camp players, and not one person said "No, we should keep Psycho B."

Travis D had occasional good games, too. Heck, so did AJ Price. Young Hans may end up being a rotational NBA player, but so far he's not shown more than Lance.

I thought the same thing. Ben looked terrible defensively and couldn't hit anything during the Summer League. Whenever he came into the game they trapped him hard and he struggled getting the ball up the court and finding the open man. It was like watching Saras "Yesacabbages" all over again.

One thing I will say about Ben is that he's scrappy. He will rebound and do all of the little things that put smiles on a head coaches face. I didn't see the game but during the Pacers training camp on NBATV, he was the only player out there that consistently crashed the boards during the Moon and Free Throw drills. He's not a great athlete but he is smart and he "goes hard" and those are two things that will land you a job in the NBA.

Lance on the other hand, just doesn't give much effort or attention to the little things. Boxing out, defensive rotations, and trying to play without the ball in his hands on offense seems to baffle him. I really think he's one of those type of players that if he can't control the ball he has a hard time staying focused and engaged in the game. So, if the Pacers are going to get anything out of him, they need to put the ball in his hands and tell him to create. If they don't, he'll never reach his potential.

BRushWithDeath
10-16-2012, 10:25 AM
Because he might very well start contributing in the very near future? That's a chance you take or don't take, but it's not a ridiculous notion or something to want to waite a little to see how a player develops.

Sure, as it is I'd just as soon keep him. I don't think there is a chance in hell he turns into a real contributor for this team but we've wasted this much time we might as well waste a little more since he's young and cheap. But if there is a player that the team wants but costs us somebody under contract, Lance should be the one who gets released.

I think the idea that Ben Hansbrough could be that guy is absurd but the idea that Lance could wind up getting let go is far from it.

docpaul
10-16-2012, 10:46 AM
Sure, as it is I'd just as soon keep him. I don't think there is a chance in hell he turns into a real contributor for this team but we've wasted this much time we might as well waste a little more since he's young and cheap. But if there is a player that the team wants but costs us somebody under contract, Lance should be the one who gets released.

I think the idea that Ben Hansbrough could be that guy is absurd but the idea that Lance could wind up getting let go is far from it.

Come on now. You make it seem as if other teams are so much more efficient in their pipeline development? :) The 10-15 spots on the roster are more often than not, developed exactly the same way on most other teams in the NBA. I suppose they are all wasting their time too?

This is what happens at the end of the bench. They are all players that could flip into good rotation players (rare), or they can be treated as interchangeable parts on a year-to-year basis depending on the strengths of 1-10.

I certainly would much prefer us riding out Lance given his potential. He's shown real flashes from my vantage point. Way more than Ben Hans has.

Strummer
10-16-2012, 11:09 AM
Neither guy is remotely threatened by Ben Hansbrough but why would anybody be the slightest bit upset if we cut Lance? He's got an unguaranteed contract but more importantly he has contributed next to nothing in his two years here.


Lance's contract is guaranteed this year.

Since86
10-16-2012, 11:34 AM
Vogel is on right now with Grady & Joe. Says 13 roster spots are taken, Sam Young will probably be the 14th, and he isn't sure if they'll lock someone down for the 15th spot.

Translation: Lance isn't getting cut for Ben Hansborough.

Trader Joe
10-16-2012, 11:48 AM
Vogel is on right now with Grady & Joe. Says 13 roster spots are taken, Sam Young will probably be the 14th, and he isn't sure if they'll lock someone down for the 15th spot.

Translation: Lance isn't getting cut for Ben Hansborough.

He will end up showing off his suit collection for most of the year though.

Naptown_Seth
10-16-2012, 11:51 AM
Sam Young will probably be the 14th,
Understatement of the year.

BRushWithDeath
10-16-2012, 11:56 AM
Come on now. You make it seem as if other teams are so much more efficient in their pipeline development?

I do? I don't think Lance would be developed any more had he been on any other team than here.

I just think a guy who is at best your 5th wing & 4th point guard shouldn't be off limits to cut if a move has to be made.

Since86
10-16-2012, 11:59 AM
He will end up showing off his suit collection for most of the year though.

Nah. Teams are allowed to dress 13 players now. Orlando Johnson will be the odd man out, and whomever gets that coveted 15th spot.

BRushWithDeath
10-16-2012, 12:01 PM
Nah. Teams are allowed to dress 13 players now. Orlando Johnson will be the odd man out, and whomever gets that coveted 15th spot.

I highly doubt we go into the season with 15.

docpaul
10-16-2012, 01:28 PM
Understatement of the year.

By the way the trades went down for the Pacers in that flurry of a day this summer, in retrospect, it seems to me that Sam Young was likely always a part of the plan:

Last year's rotation guys: Collison, Jones, Barbosa, Hansbrough, Amundsen
End of bench: Price, Stephenson, Pendergraph, Fesenko

This year's (likely) rotation guys: Augustin, Young, Green, Hansbrough, Mahinmi
End of bench: Stephenson, Johnson, Pendergraph, Plumlee

They wanted a slot on the rotation for Young, most likely. They had to get rid of Collison and Jones to do so. They weren't going to be able to trade Jones, when Young was available on the open market, as Jones has age and close to a $3m contract attached to him. My guess is when they recognized that Augustine was theirs, they pulled the trigger quickly on that trade, trading for someone they would have likely picked up off the free agency wire anyways (Mahinmi). The whole thing was engineered most likely to get Augustine and Young, clearing some of the $ associated with people they weren't going to move forward with anyways.

I wouldn't be surprised if they signed Young to a multiyear small dollar deal.

Pretty shrewd.

docpaul
10-16-2012, 02:03 PM
Here's the more interesting thing:

Last year's rotation guys (2011-2012 vs. 2012-2013):

Collison: $1,500,000 / $2,300,000
Jones: $2,700,000 / $2,900,000
Barbosa: $7,600,000 / ~$2,000,000
Hansbrough: $2,100,000 / $3,000,000
Amundsen: $2,400,000 / $1,000,000

Total: ~16.3m / ~$11.0m

This year's (likely) rotation guys:

Augustin: $3,500,000
Young: ~$1,000,000
Green: $3,500,000
Hansbrough: $3,000,000
Mahinmi: $4,000,000

Total: ~15.0m

They were forced to move away from some of those contracts last year in order to upgrade the rotation. There's no question in my mind that they did, with a smaller total spend. One could easily argue that there was no way in hell that Barbosa would have fetched that from us this year, but the point still remains that there's more talent in the rotation 6-10 for less total spend.

Those savings shifted up into the starting five. The one big concern for me is whether Hill survives here as a starter. If he doesn't succeed at the point, then he'll have to be traded, or moved to the 2... which means that we move on from either Granger or George.

CJ Jones
10-16-2012, 05:45 PM
So why does everyone feel the need to leave Lance out of their "likely" rotations when Vogel has already given the backup SG spot to Lance? You guys sound like it's already a done deal that Lance will fail. It even sounds like some of you want him to.

Kinda weird.

Psyren
10-16-2012, 05:50 PM
So why does everyone feel the need to leave Lance out of their "likely" rotations when Vogel has already given the backup SG spot to Lance? You guys sound like it's already a done deal that Lance will fail. It even sounds like some of you want him to.

Kinda weird.

I just feel like his as lost as anyone when he doesnt have the ball in his hands.

Hes excellent with the ball but not so good at moving without it and as a spot up shooter.

docpaul
10-16-2012, 05:53 PM
So why does everyone feel the need to leave Lance out of their "likely" rotations when Vogel has already given the backup SG spot to Lance? You guys sound like it's already a done deal that Lance will fail. It even sounds like some of you want him to.

Kinda weird.

If that was directed at me, I'm actually a LS fan... just going with history as a guide... IMO, he has an uphill battle, as he's ridden the pine for three years now... Young has already shown starting calibre play hampered by injury... I hope they both kill it, to be honest. :)

CJ Jones
10-16-2012, 06:01 PM
I agree, he's frustrating to watch at times. He hasn't had much of an opportunity to figure it out though. That's why I hope he's left in the rotation at least for a couple months so he can make mistakes and learn from them rather then being on eggshells while in the game.

I'm not even gonna get into the "what has he shown" or "is he really talented" discussion anymore. People want to believe they know more than a Hall of Famer and the coaches that watch him everyday. You can't really reason with those folks.

spazzxb
10-16-2012, 07:45 PM
So why does everyone feel the need to leave Lance out of their "likely" rotations when Vogel has already given the backup SG spot to Lance? You guys sound like it's already a done deal that Lance will fail. It even sounds like some of you want him to.

Kinda weird.

Winner winner chicken dinner. I still think it all has to do with allegations from when he was a teenager. Otherwise people usually root for the young guys to succeed. I have also noticed a lot of the time people just like to act like he isn't on the team when discussing rotations.

xBulletproof
10-16-2012, 08:22 PM
People act like Lance isn't there when discussing rotations because we haven't seen anything that would say he deserves to be in one. It's really that simple. You can reach for excuses and things to blame it on all you want, but most of the time the simple answer is the correct one. The simple answer is he just hasn't been good enough to play.

Have I been irked by people claiming he's going to be Tyreke Evans, a star player or difference maker? Of course. He's been terrible. I have no idea what those people are seeing. The only time he's played well is in Summer League. Which is a disorganized pick up game with less talent then you'll run into at Rucker Park at times. Suffice it to say, I simply don't get it, and it has nothing to do with anything off the court.

Anthem
10-16-2012, 08:40 PM
So why does everyone feel the need to leave Lance out of their "likely" rotations when Vogel has already given the backup SG spot to Lance?
Well, without a doubt GG has the backup 3 spot, and Augustin has the backup 1. Both of those spots are likely to have fewer than 15 minutes per game available, which isn't enough for either player. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that those two guys will steal backup minutes from the 2 (I can imagine Greene/Granger, Greene/George, and Augustin/Hill combos getting significant time). Lance isn't at his best when playing for a minute or two at a time; I can imagine the remaining minutes going to Young as a spark plug. Young's been a starter on a playoff team, he'll work his hardest to stay ahead of Lance in the depth chart.