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Cousy47
10-05-2012, 09:45 PM
If DWest has the kind of season he showed us the last 3 weeks and during the playoffs, I think it will take his 10 mill, Hans 4 mill, and some change to keep him in Indy. Do you see any other team giving him bigger piles of money after this coming season?

yoadknux
10-05-2012, 09:55 PM
He'll be 33 when he gets his new contract... He's a very solid player but even if he has a good season (say 16/8 or something) I don't think he's gonna get 10m/year.

Anyway, I think West is a decent player and brings maturity to this team, but I don't think we're going to keep him. Our cap situation isn't so great anymore. If we resign him we're gonna have some problems resigning Granger and George.

PGisthefuture
10-05-2012, 10:02 PM
I think we'll resign him for cheaper. Maybe like 3 yr 15M or something.

hackashaq
10-05-2012, 10:15 PM
If DWest has the kind of season he showed us the last 3 weeks and during the playoffs, I think it will take his 10 mill, Hans 4 mill, and some change to keep him in Indy. Do you see any other team giving him bigger piles of money after this coming season?

over 14 mil a year? no way. 7-8 mil i'd expect. if no one wanted to take Scola off Houston's hands, and he had 3 years at 9 mil or so on average, then i don't see anyone giving a huge deal to West either.

BlueNGold
10-05-2012, 10:43 PM
West came to Indy to rehab his knee. His next move is his final shot at big bucks in free agency. He was a two year rental folks.

BlueNGold
10-05-2012, 10:44 PM
I think we'll resign him for cheaper. Maybe like 3 yr 15M or something.

There is no way that will be enough. He's going to get at least 8 million/yr if he plays well this year.

jeffg-body
10-05-2012, 10:47 PM
I like him on this team and hopefully he will want to stick around to see this team develop.

rock747
10-05-2012, 10:58 PM
I hope we can keep him, but a scenario where he goes to one of the big dogs seems likely to me. He's not as entrenched into the franchise like some of the other guys.

pizza guy
10-05-2012, 11:01 PM
West came to Indy to rehab his knee. His next move is his final shot at big bucks in free agency. He was a two year rental folks.

Yes and no.

I really think he chose Indiana because he liked what was available here and thought he could be more useful here. I don't think it was just to rehab his knee.

I do agree that his two-year deal is all we'll see from him in Indy. I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here. DWest has served his purpose for this team. He was brought in to show this young team how to be professional. He was brought in for his toughness, attitude, respect, and approach. We all saw it in the team, in the young guys -- how the maturity level of everyone here took a huge step forward with West's arrival. One more year with that, and guys like Granger, Hibbert, Hill and maybe even Paul George will be grown men who carry themselves as such.

West was the perfect signing for this exact role.

But he's not getting any younger. He's not getting any quicker. He's not getting any better on defense or more dynamic on offense. He is what he is. And his contract was designed with that in mind. After this year, his purpose will have been served and I think the team will look for a younger, more dynamic player at his position. He will go on to get a ring or a big payday, and we will go on to remember DWest as a HUGE part of our development towards being contenders. In only two years, he will cement a legacy here in Indy that Pacers fans will always be thankful for.

mattie
10-06-2012, 03:41 AM
I pray someone offers him big cash. Then we can try to go after someone who plays D and rebounds..

Mourning
10-06-2012, 05:16 AM
Well one thing we are going to have to remember are the new cap rules will start taking effect after this coming season, right? That would suggest that players like Lebron en Dwight will keep getting their huge paydays, but I expect backups, borderline starters and mere starters to start having to deal with lower offers.

West, who I greatly respect and was my 2nd favorite Pacer past year could very well be one of those players that will not be getting the sort of offers he was getting in the past, especially if we start factoring in age. I hope we can keep him without having to break the bank, but the chances of that happenning are IMHO slim, alas.

wintermute
10-06-2012, 05:40 AM
I think the original plan was to sign David West as veteran mentor, with Tyler Hansbrough taking over when West's contract was up. This wasn't unreasonable 2 seasons ago, when Tyler had a fairly promising half season as starting PF. But I think West fit in better and had more of an impact than anyone anticipated. And Tyler not only hasn't built on his second season performance, he's regressed significantly. So I would think our plan A now is to re-sign West. $7-8m per year for 2-3 years as hackashaq says is his likely market value - can't imagine anyone offering more. And if anyone is getting moved, it's probably Tyler.



But he's not getting any younger. He's not getting any quicker. He's not getting any better on defense or more dynamic on offense. He is what he is. And his contract was designed with that in mind. After this year, his purpose will have been served and I think the team will look for a younger, more dynamic player at his position. He will go on to get a ring or a big payday, and we will go on to remember DWest as a HUGE part of our development towards being contenders. In only two years, he will cement a legacy here in Indy that Pacers fans will always be thankful for.

This is also possible. But the big question is - who? If we let West and Augustin walk next season, we will have about $8-9m in cap space after taking roster charges etc into account. That's not nearly enough for Josh Smith, who's probably the top FA PF next season. It may be enough for Paul Millsap though, so I guess he's the guy to watch out for.

As for trade, well we don't really have a lot of trade assets. Trading say, Granger, for a young talented PF would just open a hole at another position. Ideally, we'd sent out West himself for a younger replacement, but I don't know how much value West will have as a half year rental.

I still think it's more likely that we re-sign David West than any other option. But things can change a lot by end of the season. We'll see.

xIndyFan
10-06-2012, 08:14 AM
Unless DWest has a much much better year, the chance that someone will pay him $14M a year is remote. I looked at the ESPN 500 list, and David is like the 17th or 18th highest rated PF. That would seem to make him an 'average' starter. and an average starter should be easily replaced by another average guy with an average salary.

When thinking about guys getting big offers, you need to look at what team needs a guy like DWest enough to offer more than the Pacers. You can pretty much eliminate 15 or 20 teams just because they have a guy they like. Cap space would eliminate most if not all of those weak at the 4. I just don't see the market opening for DWest at anything above what he's making now.

vnzla81
10-06-2012, 10:05 AM
The Pacers are going to re-sign Dwest and are going to use him until his wheels fall off, I expect a 3 years contract for about 7mil a year, maybe 4 years.

They should trade him for a guy like Milssap or Josh Smith but that's not going to happen.

Cousy47
10-06-2012, 10:35 AM
I could see 3 years, but I doubt we keep him for $7 mil. I think West turned down more money and a longer contract from Boston to set up his last , big,long term signing. Maybe the same $10 mil for 3 or 4 years?

Hicks
10-06-2012, 11:15 AM
I pray someone offers him big cash. Then we can try to go after someone who plays D and rebounds..

That way people can start complaining about a power forward who can't score and therefore forces our offense to have to play four on five.

vnzla81
10-06-2012, 11:34 AM
That way people can start complaining about a power forward who can't score and therefore forces our offense to have to play four on five.

Not trying to start an argument or anything like that but I'm pretty sure a lot of power forwards can score 12ppg, hell even Tyler in his horrible year last year was able to average 9ppg.

hackashaq
10-06-2012, 01:17 PM
I think the original plan was to sign David West as veteran mentor, with Tyler Hansbrough taking over when West's contract was up. This wasn't unreasonable 2 seasons ago, when Tyler had a fairly promising half season as starting PF. But I think West fit in better and had more of an impact than anyone anticipated. And Tyler not only hasn't built on his second season performance, he's regressed significantly. So I would think our plan A now is to re-sign West. $7-8m per year for 2-3 years as hackashaq says is his likely market value - can't imagine anyone offering more. And if anyone is getting moved, it's probably Tyler.



This is also possible. But the big question is - who? If we let West and Augustin walk next season, we will have about $8-9m in cap space after taking roster charges etc into account. That's not nearly enough for Josh Smith, who's probably the top FA PF next season. It may be enough for Paul Millsap though, so I guess he's the guy to watch out for.

As for trade, well we don't really have a lot of trade assets. Trading say, Granger, for a young talented PF would just open a hole at another position. Ideally, we'd sent out West himself for a younger replacement, but I don't know how much value West will have as a half year rental.

I still think it's more likely that we re-sign David West than any other option. But things can change a lot by end of the season. We'll see.

Millsap would be a dream come true.

Strummer
10-06-2012, 01:24 PM
Not trying to start an argument or anything like that but I'm pretty sure a lot of power forwards can score 12ppg, hell even Tyler in his horrible year last year was able to average 9ppg.

Dale Davis never averaged 12 ppg. Just sayin'. Not sure why I'm sayin', but just sayin'.

Naptown_Seth
10-06-2012, 01:28 PM
There is no way that will be enough. He's going to get at least 8 million/yr if he plays well this year.
I think you could pitch 25-26m for 3 years if he looks solid this year and he'd be interested.

Yes the team would be pushed on the Paul George increase, but Danny's not going to command more than he's already on the hook for. He's been good on his deal, but not better than the deal.

Losing that Hans $4m is going to help a lot, and if West comes off $1.5m a year also then you have a good chunk of Paul's raise. Things are tight, but if they work well together then it can be kept in place.

Hicks
10-06-2012, 01:34 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if West or Danny is gone after next summer due to these budget issues. But maybe they'll make it work.

vnzla81
10-06-2012, 01:36 PM
Dale Davis never averaged 12 ppg. Just sayin'. Not sure why I'm sayin', but just sayin'.

And Dale Davis could play D and rebound pretty well unlike West.

Strummer
10-06-2012, 01:37 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if West or Danny is gone after next summer due to these budget issues. But maybe they'll make it work.

The wild cards are DJ and Lance. If they play well enough then someone will have to go. Could be some hard decisions. I know Lance has two more seasons here.

CableKC
10-06-2012, 01:54 PM
Millsap would be a dream come true.
I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case.....which IMHO means that DWest is gone next season unless he can be had for a slightly above average but reasonable price.

Add in that the Pacers have had an obvious interest in Milsap for the longest time ( who happens to also be a UFA ).......I don't see us getting older...I see us getting younger.

vnzla81
10-06-2012, 02:01 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case.....which IMHO means that DWest is gone next season unless he can be had for a slightly above average but reasonable price.

Add in that the Pacers have had an obvious interest in Milsap for the longest time ( who happens to also be a UFA ).......I don't see us getting older...I see us getting younger.

I hope you are right.

Ace E.Anderson
10-06-2012, 02:14 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case.....which IMHO means that DWest is gone next season unless he can be had for a slightly above average but reasonable price.

Add in that the Pacers have had an obvious interest in Milsap for the longest time ( who happens to also be a UFA ).......I don't see us getting older...I see us getting younger.

I'd think it would depend on how much Milsap would command on the open market. Yes he would be a great fit for this team, but how much are the Pacers willing to spend (or is going to have available to spend). If we could get Milsap on the books for 8-9 mil a yr, I'd think we'd be good. It'll be interesting to see what these guys market value is.

CableKC
10-06-2012, 02:26 PM
I'd think it would depend on how much Milsap would command on the open market. Yes he would be a great fit for this team, but how much are the Pacers willing to spend (or is going to have available to spend). If we could get Milsap on the books for 8-9 mil a yr, I'd think we'd be good. It'll be interesting to see what these guys market value is.
He's a very proven and efficient ( but undersized ) Starting quality PF that has averaged 16ppg/8rpg/1.6spg on 33mpg and will be 28 1/2 at the start of the 2013-2014 offseason. I think that he will get a hefty $10 to 11 mil contract offer 3 year / 4th year Player Option contract offer. You may think that is too much for him and I'd love to get him on the cheap....but this is Milsaps first UFA contract.....he's not going to go cheap.

Financially...if we leave things the way they are now...it would be hard to make the #s work. But if Lance, Green and DJ significantly improve the 2nd unit...especially Lance....I could see Hansbrough moved for a 2nd round pick and $$$ before the 2012 Trade Deadeline......while pushing Granger over to the backup PF spot....mainly to get some assets for Hansbrough while clearing up Capspace.

Ace E.Anderson
10-06-2012, 02:35 PM
He's a very proven and efficient ( but undersized ) Starting quality PF that has averaged 16ppg/8rpg/1.6spg on 33mpg and will be 28 1/2 at the start of the 2013-2014 offseason. I'd love to get him on the cheap....but this is Milsaps first UFA contract.....he's not going to go cheap. I think that he will get a hefty $10+ mil contract offer ( give or take a mil ).

Financially...if we leave things the way they are now...it would be hard to make the #s work. But if Lance, Green and DJ significantly improve the 2nd unit...especially Lance....I could see Hansbrough moved for a 2nd round pick and $$$...while pushing Granger over to the backup PF spot....mainly to get some assets for Hansbrough while clearing up Capspace.

I guess my thinking had a little to with the new CBA. Perhaps its wishful thinking but I'd like to think that the league would get away from paying hefty, 10+ million dollar contacts to guys that are in the 2nd and 3rd tier of players.

If he comes in at 10mil+ then I'd there's no way that we make a move to get him. We could potentially do a sign and trade, but there would be zero benefit for Milsap to agree to those terms.

hackashaq
10-06-2012, 02:42 PM
i do agree he's probably 10 mil +. Maybe up to Granger's salary. The guy is a marginal all star. He's around where D-West was prior to the injury.

CableKC
10-06-2012, 07:14 PM
I guess my thinking had a little to with the new CBA. Perhaps its wishful thinking but I'd like to think that the league would get away from paying hefty, 10+ million dollar contacts to guys that are in the 2nd and 3rd tier of players.

If he comes in at 10mil+ then I'd there's no way that we make a move to get him. We could potentially do a sign and trade, but there would be zero benefit for Milsap to agree to those terms.
I agree that the CBA has likely tempered the willingness of Teams to overpay for mediocre talent. Based off of this last season's contract offers, my guess is that teams will only overpay for quality talent...which Milsap certainly qualifies as.

xBulletproof
10-06-2012, 09:24 PM
Not trying to start an argument or anything like that but I'm pretty sure a lot of power forwards can score 12ppg, hell even Tyler in his horrible year last year was able to average 9ppg.

Not all 12 ppg players are equal.

West is well respected as a scorer and the attention he will get from the defense is different than what Tyler would get even if he scored 12 per.

imawhat
10-06-2012, 10:03 PM
I hope we can resign him. He has a reputation for not caring about money.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2012, 10:32 PM
You take David West off this team after this season and you've got to find a different, but similar priced, starting PF and hope they're as good for toughness and leadership. Why mess with that? And you may still regress on the court by paying a similar amount to his replacement.

West's contract is not unreasonable for a starting PF that is also a team leader. I see him resigning for something similar to the current deal, or this team will take somewhat of a tumble in the standings without him and still have cap issues because a starting PF will still cost what he's asking.

I'd wait to concern myself with Paul George's next contract when he proves that he's moved beyond what could be replaced by some other wing player on a rookie contract. What David shows - maturity, leadership, making plays in the clutch, is pretty valuable even if his "potential" to improve isn't high any more. We can all hope in another four or five years that Paul George becomes the kind of overall player that David West already is and should continue to be for at least 3-4 seasons (barring injury, of course.)

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 12:47 AM
David West already is and should continue to be for at least 3-4 seasons (barring injury, of course.)

So is David West someway somehow finding the fountain of youth? 3 or 4 more seasons? :crazy:

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 01:06 AM
Not all 12 ppg players are equal.

West is well respected as a scorer and the attention he will get from the defense is different than what Tyler would get even if he scored 12 per.

Well WAS respected he is not that guy anymore, by the way that was JOB's thinking when he decided to make Murphy his main option how that worked out?

By looking at starting power forwards in the NBA West is on the bottom in scoring and he is supposed to be an scorer because he doesn't bring defense or rebounding.

Pacerized
10-07-2012, 01:06 AM
So is David West someway somehow finding the fountain of youth? 3 or 4 more seasons? :crazy:

He'll be 35 in 3 years, 36 if you consider it 3 seasons after this one. I think he has that in him. However, I don't think he's going to sign a major contract at the age of 33. He'll take a significant paycut next year. I hope we can keep him for 2 more seasons in the 6-7 mil range. Just far enough over the MLE to keep most suiters away.

pizza guy
10-07-2012, 01:14 AM
This is also possible. But the big question is - who? If we let West and Augustin walk next season, we will have about $8-9m in cap space after taking roster charges etc into account. That's not nearly enough for Josh Smith, who's probably the top FA PF next season. It may be enough for Paul Millsap though, so I guess he's the guy to watch out for.

As for trade, well we don't really have a lot of trade assets. Trading say, Granger, for a young talented PF would just open a hole at another position. Ideally, we'd sent out West himself for a younger replacement, but I don't know how much value West will have as a half year rental.

I still think it's more likely that we re-sign David West than any other option. But things can change a lot by end of the season. We'll see.

If it means we lose a couple of bench guys, but we can somehow add Josh Smith to Hill, George, Granger, and Hibbert, that's something you HAVE to do. Pritchard and Walsh should spend the entire season trying to figure out how to make that work. Josh Smith would absolutely be my #1 target.

That's not to say I think it's likely he's who we would get. But he's definitely who I would shoot for.

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 01:14 AM
He'll be 35 in 3 years, 36 if you consider it 3 seasons after this one. I think he has that in him. However, I don't think he's going to sign a major contract at the age of 33. He'll take a significant paycut next year. I hope we can keep him for 2 more seasons in the 6-7 mil range. Just far enough over the MLE to keep most suiters away.

Just a quick question, what are your goals for the Pacers? if you are thinking first to second rounds playoffs exits yeah go ahead and sign him for five years, but a championship? I don't think so.

How many power forwards are in the NBA that are 34/35/36 and can still play at a high level? Dirk? Who else? how many players in the NBA play at a high level at that age? not many, and the ones that do are usually hall of famers and is not like West was playing at a high level last year either.

Pacerized
10-07-2012, 01:21 AM
Just a quick question, what are your goals for the Pacers? if you are thinking first to second rounds playoffs exits yeah go ahead and sign him for five years, but a championship? I don't think so.

How many power forwards are in the NBA that are 34/35/36 and can still play at a high level? Dirk? Who else? how many players in the NBA play at a high level at that age? not many, and the ones that do are usually hall of famers.

I proposed 2 years in which case he'd be 35 at the end of the contract and I think he'll be at about the same level then which is solid but not an all star level. KG would be another PF playing at a high level in his late 30's but of course West has never been on that level.
I'd love for us to sign a big name PF but I have no confidence in Walsh doing so after seeing how he spent 10 mil in cap space this summer. If Bird is back we might stand a chance of going after a better player.

MvPlumlee
10-07-2012, 01:42 AM
As surprising as it may sound, a lot will depend on how well he and the team do this season.

But I would definitely contact Millsap. Real blue collar guy and a team constructed like these Pacers need to have one of the best defenses in the league to have a shot at the title.

mattie
10-07-2012, 04:23 AM
That way people can start complaining about a power forward who can't score and therefore forces our offense to have to play four on five.

That's what happened the last time the Pacers had a powerforward who could only play defense and rebound. Pacers fans don't seem to think to highly of Dale Davis.

hackashaq
10-07-2012, 09:00 AM
If it means we lose a couple of bench guys, but we can somehow add Josh Smith to Hill, George, Granger, and Hibbert, that's something you HAVE to do. Pritchard and Walsh should spend the entire season trying to figure out how to make that work. Josh Smith would absolutely be my #1 target.

That's not to say I think it's likely he's who we would get. But he's definitely who I would shoot for.

i'd be scared. too much stupid. I'd be scared to replace the leader of the team with something opposite. Now Millsap, that's close enough.

pizza guy
10-07-2012, 09:42 AM
i'd be scared. too much stupid. I'd be scared to replace the leader of the team with something opposite. Now Millsap, that's close enough.

As much of a leader as he has been, I think he was brought in to show the young guys how to be professionals and how to be leaders. After this season, Danny, Roy, and both Georges will be leaders. Especially Roy. With the culture we have now, you can make this trade off, IMO.

xBulletproof
10-07-2012, 10:37 AM
Well WAS respected he is not that guy anymore, by the way that was JOB's thinking when he decided to make Murphy his main option how that worked out?

By looking at starting power forwards in the NBA West is on the bottom in scoring and he is supposed to be an scorer because he doesn't bring defense or rebounding.

What are you even talking about with the JOB thing? What does JOB or Murphy have anything to do with David West?

David West is not "at the bottom" in scoring at PF by any measure. He's 23rd in points scored by "forwards". That's SF, and PF on NBA.com. He's 25th in minutes on that same list. He's still well respected as a scorer. Teams know he can go off on any night if given the chance. Nobody feels that way about Tyler, just because he scored 9 PPG. They'll leave him to help elsewhere before they will West. West's minutes and touches were down, not his efficiency. His usage rating was the lowest it had been since his 2nd year in the NBA. If he gets the minutes and touches he can still score 15-18 PPG. I doubt anyone else questions that, but you.

MnvrChvy
10-07-2012, 10:38 AM
If David West will resign for anything up to his current contract you have to do it. The guy knows how to take care of his body, so I think it is realistic that he could still produce at a high level when he's 35/36.

My thing is that I remember all the talk about who we should pick up at PF last summer. So much talk about the stats and being able to play both 4 and 5 spots. I got so wrapped up in all that, that I wasn't really sure how I felt about picking up DWest. Then it became obvious that he was more than his statistics. David West absolutely, positively was the right fit for this lineup. That kind of stuff is extremely hard to predict, especially for the lay-people like us. To go out and say, "this guy could give us 2 more points and 1.5 more rebounds per game so we should grab him instead," would just not do the situation justice. Josh Smith or Milsap (whom I'd rather see in a blue and gold uniform) may bring stats but hurt the overall team effort. We know DW doesn't do that.

David West fits the Pacers like a glove. We've got him. He's still got highly productive time left in his career. As long as the numbers are sane, we have to resign him.

... plus he's one of my favorite 'character' guys in the whole league.

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 10:55 AM
What are you even talking about with the JOB thing? What does JOB or Murphy have anything to do with David West?

David West is not "at the bottom" in scoring at PF by any measure. He's 23rd in points scored by "forwards". That's SF, and PF on NBA.com. He's 25th in minutes on that same list. He's still well respected as a scorer. Teams know he can go off on any night if given the chance. Nobody feels that way about Tyler, just because he scored 9 PPG. They'll leave him to help elsewhere before they will West. West's minutes and touches were down, not his efficiency. His usage rating was the lowest it had been since his 2nd year in the NBA. If he gets the minutes and touches he can still score 15-18 PPG. I doubt anyone else questions that, but you.

I'm bringing up Troy Murphy because I remember that JOB used to think the same thing, "just put TroyMurphy up there and he is goin to keep the defense honest and he can go for 30 at anytime", 12ppg is 12ppg per game, it doesn't matter how you slice it, 12ppg is pretty bad if his only job is to score because as we all know he can't play D or rebound.

By the way I wouldn't mind re-signing him, but as the backup, I think he could be a good option off the bench, but as the starter of a possible championship team in the future? I don't think so.

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 12:16 PM
xBulletproof David West is not "at the bottom" in scoring at PF by any measure. He's 23rd in points scored by "forwards". That's SF, and PF on NBA.com.

33 out of 50 in forwards

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scoring.jsp?league=00&season=22011&conf=OVERALL&position=2&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

Here is a list of power forwards and their average per game so we can have a better picture:

Love 26 points

Aldridge 21.7

Dirk 21.6

Blake 20.7

Lee 20.1

Andrea B 19.5

Josh Smith 18.8

Bosh 18

Amare 17.5

Gasol 17.4

Jamison 17.2

Milsap 16.6

Anderson 16.1

Scola 15.5

Boozer 15

Al Harrington 14.2

Humpries 13.8

Ersan 13

Young 12.8

Dwest 12.8

Bass 12.5

Landry 12.5

Zbo 11.6

Beasley 11.5

Brand 11

Faried 10.2


Yep he is on the bottom.

xBulletproof
10-07-2012, 12:29 PM
33 out of 50 in forwards

Yep he is on the bottom.

:laugh:

That's hilarious. 33 out of 50? You're kidding, right?

CableKC
10-07-2012, 12:52 PM
I proposed 2 years in which case he'd be 35 at the end of the contract and I think he'll be at about the same level then which is solid but not an all star level. KG would be another PF playing at a high level in his late 30's but of course West has never been on that level.
I'd love for us to sign a big name PF but I have no confidence in Walsh doing so after seeing how he spent 10 mil in cap space this summer. If Bird is back we might stand a chance of going after a better player.
I seriously doubt that West....at his current age...is going to settle for a 2 year contract. My guess is that he will want AT THE VERY LEAST...just like Nash...a 3 year guaranteed contract.

xIndyFan
10-07-2012, 04:06 PM
:laugh:

That's hilarious. 33 out of 50? You're kidding, right?

gosh I hope so :laugh:

The ESPN 500 has DWest as the 16th, 17th or 18th best PF. Depending on where you put Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol or Nene. DWest is behind Love, Nowitzki, Griffin, Gasol, Bosh, Aldridge, Garnett, Horford, Josh Smith, Randolph, Ibaka, Stoudemire, Jefferson, Monroe, Ryan Anderson, Nene and Milsap. I'd have him slightly higher, but middle of the pack of the starting PF's in the league seems about right. Putting him at the bottom of the league seems more about hating on a player than an actual analysis of his playing ability.

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 05:00 PM
:laugh:

That's hilarious. 33 out of 50? You're kidding, right?

You said he was 23nd that is a lie, NBA has him at 33 between forwards and power forwards and as I pointed out by his numbers alone he is on the bottom of power forwards.

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 05:01 PM
gosh I hope so :laugh:

The ESPN 500 has DWest as the 16th, 17th or 18th best PF. Depending on where you put Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol or Nene. DWest is behind Love, Nowitzki, Griffin, Gasol, Bosh, Aldridge, Garnett, Horford, Josh Smith, Randolph, Ibaka, Stoudemire, Jefferson, Monroe, Ryan Anderson, Nene and Milsap. I'd have him slightly higher, but middle of the pack of the starting PF's in the league seems about right. Putting him at the bottom of the league seems more about hating on a player than an actual analysis of his playing ability.

Yeah ESPN 500 is such a great tool.......

QuickRelease
10-07-2012, 05:59 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if West or Danny is gone after next summer due to these budget issues. But maybe they'll make it work.

If it comes down to that, I think we're more equipped to deal with the loss of Danny.

xBulletproof
10-07-2012, 06:09 PM
You said he was 23nd that is a lie, NBA has him at 33 between forwards and power forwards and as I pointed out by his numbers alone he is on the bottom of power forwards.

Actually he IS 23rd, in points scored. There's no need to lie, the facts state the opposite of what you're saying well enough. You're using averages, I'm going by the points he actually scored.

Also your 33 out of 50 is silly anyway. There aren't 50 forwards in the NBA. That's 33 out of 50 on PAGE 1 OF 4. There are 3 more pages of players. :laugh:

Either way, if you want to go by average, go back through your link and count out how many SF's are on that list ahead of West. I counted at least 13. That's certainly nowhere near 'the bottom'. Especially when there are actually 195 players on that list, not 50.

Here's what I was looking at.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/PRA.jsp?league=00&season=22011&conf=OVERALL&position=2&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=2&splitDD=All%20Teams

He's 23rd on that list and I see Lebron, Durant, Pierce, Carmelo, Granger, and Rudy Gay on there as SF's.

BlueNGold
10-07-2012, 06:17 PM
Not sure how important these stats are. Shane Battier whipped West's butt in the playoffs. I don't see him on the list at all.

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 06:18 PM
Actually he IS 23rd, in points scored. There's no need to lie, the facts state the opposite of what you're saying well enough. You're using averages, I'm going by the points he actually scored.

So screw the average and let's go for points scored? not wonder why you think he is so great :lol:

It's also looks like West scored more points than Bosh, Howard and Rose on the playoffs last year so West > Howard,Rose and Bosh :laugh:

xBulletproof
10-07-2012, 06:40 PM
So screw the average and let's go for points scored? not wonder why you think he is so great :lol:

It's also looks like West scored more points than Bosh, Howard and Rose on the playoffs last year so West > Howard,Rose and Bosh :laugh:

...... you're so ridiculous. You're the one who starts with the rankings list comparison and then it's ridiculous. You're the absolute king of making an argument, and when it's thrown back in your face in a similar manner you just giggle like the other person is stupid for using YOUR argument.

If there were NBA2K13 style ratings for a Message Board game, you'd get a 0 for the common sense rating.

I bet Andrew Bynum is the greatest center evar! He has great averages. Who cares he only shows up half the time. "LOL", indeed.

BlueNGold
10-07-2012, 07:12 PM
Let's not degrade the site folks.

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 07:25 PM
...... you're so ridiculous. You're the one who starts with the rankings list comparison and then it's ridiculous. You're the absolute king of making an argument, and when it's thrown back in your face in a similar manner you just giggle like the other person is stupid for using YOUR argument.

If there were NBA2K13 style ratings for a Message Board game, you'd get a 0 for the common sense rating.

I bet Andrew Bynum is the greatest center evar! He has great averages. Who cares he only shows up half the time. "LOL", indeed.

Bynum is not the best ever but he is pretty damn good, I don't know what are you laughing about? his average is good, yes he has health issues but he is still great and also there is not a reason for you to call me names :twocents:

Cousy47
10-07-2012, 07:44 PM
So after watching the back and forth, how about a declining contract with player/team options for 3 years? If 25 mil over 4 years with the first 2 years being the biggest hit to the cap, then if Hans, Ian or Plumlee step up to be the starter, we still have the leadership of West coming off the bench and in the locker room?

Major Cold
10-07-2012, 09:25 PM
By the stats last year, David West is better than Zack Randolph. And so is 2/3 of the starting PFs. So by vnzla's logic.

Ryan Anderson>>>>>>>>Zack Randolph

vnzla81
10-07-2012, 09:37 PM
By the stats last year, David West is better than Zack Randolph. And so is 2/3 of the starting PFs. So by vnzla's logic.

Ryan Anderson>>>>>>>>Zack Randolph

And that wasn't my logic, somebody else has that logic, West scored more points than Zbo so West >>>>>>>> Zbo.

Major Cold
10-07-2012, 10:13 PM
And that wasn't my logic, somebody else has that logic, West scored more points than Zbo so West >>>>>>>> Zbo.


Yeah I don't agree with it. Randolph was injured and recoverying, so there is a reason why he averaged 13 ppg after a career year. Same with West.

He was coming back from an injury and I do not expect him to have the same start as he did last year. He will not be better offesnsivley than Aldridge, Dirk, Blake, Amare, KLove, JR Smith, Pau, Milsap, Bosh, Duncan, or Nene.

But I think he will be what we need for the price we can allot to that possession And I don't think any of those teams would ever trade for him, without us giving something else up.

And we can't overlook the leadership. Cause really a Nene skill set with a David West persona minus the doucheness is Kevin Garnett.*






*I realize this comment is an analogy and it may not line up perfectly with everything it is comparing. Please do not try and waste 3 posts in getting this clarified.(*)

(*) this disclaimer is not projected at anyone poster in general just a formality that we need to make (**)

(**) this disclaimer of a disclaimer of a disclaimer is starting to look like a stoned cartoon character.

Naptown_Seth
10-07-2012, 11:50 PM
What are you even talking about with the JOB thing? What does JOB or Murphy have anything to do with David West?

David West is not "at the bottom" in scoring at PF by any measure. He's 23rd in points scored by "forwards". That's SF, and PF on NBA.com. He's 25th in minutes on that same list. He's still well respected as a scorer. Teams know he can go off on any night if given the chance. Nobody feels that way about Tyler, just because he scored 9 PPG. They'll leave him to help elsewhere before they will West. West's minutes and touches were down, not his efficiency. His usage rating was the lowest it had been since his 2nd year in the NBA. If he gets the minutes and touches he can still score 15-18 PPG. I doubt anyone else questions that, but you.
And a good portion of his scoring is out of true low post moves. He's a better low post scorer than Roy at this point and draws doubles or defensive specialists (like Battier in the playoffs) to try to solve him. His game doesn't rely specifically on quickness, and in no way does it involve hops, so he's not about to be "too old" for his game.

As long as he keeps the shooting touch on the fade and has strength he should be pretty reliable to give guys fits in the post while stepping away if they overplay. I don't see any reason to expect a non-injury drop in the next 3 years.


Maybe a more accurate list of the West type of PFs in order of PPG last year. 6 RPG required, 1.0 or less 3PA per game required, 6'9" to 6'11" and listed as F or F-C only. Cousins is about the only center that ended up on the list. You lose Ryan Anderson and Kevin Love who do a lot of their scoring at the 3pt line. Anderson in particular has no inside scoring offense, nothing back to the basket like West.

This puts him about 14-15 in the NBA, and since many of these guys would require Hibbert or better money I'd say that he's about right for your 3rd highest paid guy.

http://bkref.com/tiny/a2vOq

beast23
10-07-2012, 11:52 PM
Yeah ESPN 500 is such a great tool.......

Speaking of tools......

beast23
10-08-2012, 12:08 AM
And a good portion of his scoring is out of true low post moves. He's a better low post scorer than Roy at this point and draws doubles or defensive specialists (like Battier in the playoffs) to try to solve him. His game doesn't rely specifically on quickness, and in no way does it involve hops, so he's not about to be "too old" for his game.

As long as he keeps the shooting touch on the fade and has strength he should be pretty reliable to give guys fits in the post while stepping away if they overplay. I don't see any reason to expect a non-injury drop in the next 3 years.

In all honesty, if the Pacers are down by 1 or 2 points and in there last possession of the game, I would want the ball to go through West in the post. Why? He is a very capable scorer, he is very unselfish and he makes good decisions about when to shoot and when to dish off. I think Hill is similar, although perhaps not as good in the categories mentioned.

But, if you consider Hibbert, Granger and George, I believe all three are more selfish than the other two and not nearly as conscious about where we are in the shot clock when they are holding the ball.

Slam West all you want, but regardless of how many points, he is probably our best "team" player. He knows as well as any player on the floor what he should do and should not do with the ball nearly every time he touches it.

ChicagoJ
10-08-2012, 12:55 AM
There is a reason it only took a couple of games last season for Hill and West to become my two favorites on the roster. I actually thought Hibbert would hold that title, but he dropped to #3.

Its not like Vogel took the same roster, after the Chicago meltdown where both the team and coach looked a long way from becoming playoff tested, to a team that looked like a legit playoff team capable of a deep run. Adding West and Hill was huge, and subtracting West after this season would be about as stupid as...

mitchbr
10-08-2012, 10:48 AM
DWest is a much bigger part of this team than a 4-man who can play the 5. He's a great passer, solid rebounder, the most mature on the team and has a gameface that scares guards driving to the basket. His fire for the game is unmatched, and he's been training this offseason instead of rehabbing his knee. I expect him to have a huge year, and if the Pacers don't resign him the loss of his intangibles would be worse than his physical presence. He's a competitor, and if we don't win it all this year I think he'll want to stay and bring one home before he leaves for a lesser team with more money, just my 2 cents though

vnzla81
10-08-2012, 11:18 AM
Maybe a more accurate list of the West type of PFs in order of PPG last year. 6 RPG required, 1.0 or less 3PA per game required, 6'9" to 6'11" and listed as F or F-C only. Cousins is about the only center that ended up on the list. You lose Ryan Anderson and Kevin Love who do a lot of their scoring at the 3pt line. Anderson in particular has no inside scoring offense, nothing back to the basket like West.

This puts him about 14-15 in the NBA, and since many of these guys would require Hibbert or better money I'd say that he's about right for your 3rd highest paid guy.

http://bkref.com/tiny/a2vOq

Love, Josh Smith,Ryan Anderson,Gasol, Dirk, Millsap, Andrea Bargnani,Amare, Zbo and Nene need to be on that list you posted, just because some of them shoot 3's and don't meet the requirements that you are talking about is not reason to punish them, at the end of the day they still play the position, what are you going to post next? players that go left more per game making West a top 5 left handed scorer?

Heisenberg
10-10-2012, 12:47 AM
Figured it was important for everyone to know that we can't extend West

wintermute
10-10-2012, 04:48 AM
Figured it was important for everyone to know that we can't extend West

Extend as in add years to his current contract before it expires at the end of the season? No we can't.

Re-signing him on the other hand, is a different matter. We don't have full Bird rights, but we can sign him to a non-Bird contract, I.e. 120% of his old contract. That should be more than enough to keep him if we're so inclined.

Peck
10-10-2012, 08:45 AM
Do you ever wonder if the Pacers do actually see Paul George as more of a 3 instead of a 2 if maybe they just move Danny to the 4?

In today's NBA Danny at the 4 would be more than capable vs. most teams.

If so the team may be ok letting West walk if the money is not right & either signing another guard or re-signing D.J. Augistine to play along side Hill.

Danny matches up very well vs. a lot of 4's anyway and as he gets older he may progress to that position.

daschysta
10-10-2012, 08:54 AM
So screw the average and let's go for points scored? not wonder why you think he is so great :lol:

It's also looks like West scored more points than Bosh, Howard and Rose on the playoffs last year so West > Howard,Rose and Bosh :laugh:

You do realize that players tend to take about a year to fully come back from the type of injury West had right? He should be much better this season, he has been a consistent 19-21 ppg player for years, he won't score that much on a balanced team like ours, but he's alot better than you give him credit for.

Ace E.Anderson
10-10-2012, 09:53 AM
Do you ever wonder if the Pacers do actually see Paul George as more of a 3 instead of a 2 if maybe they just move Danny to the 4?

In today's NBA Danny at the 4 would be more than capable vs. most teams.

If so the team may be ok letting West walk if the money is not right & either signing another guard or re-signing D.J. Augistine to play along side Hill.

Danny matches up very well vs. a lot of 4's anyway and as he gets older he may progress to that position.

Peck asking for the dreaded stretch 4?!?

Lol JK :laugh:

I agree that DG would be a much better player at the 4 as opposed to the 3--at this point in his career. It'd definitely open the floor more, and we wouldn't lose much on the defensive end. With PG being an above average rebounder, I don't think we would be killed on the boards either.

IMHO, even if we DID re-sign West, I'd rather move Danny to the 4 and West to the bench. As West gets older, he'd be a great scoring option to bring off the bench.

For me, the true question would be, what would we do with our other positions? DO we re-sign Augustine and move GH to the 2? Do we push Gerald Green to the starting lineup and leave GH at the 1? Do we use the money we would have used on West, to sign another wing player?

Pacer Fan
10-10-2012, 10:12 AM
Keeping David West...
Doubt it!

Derek2k3
10-10-2012, 10:22 AM
Do you ever wonder if the Pacers do actually see Paul George as more of a 3 instead of a 2 if maybe they just move Danny to the 4?

In today's NBA Danny at the 4 would be more than capable vs. most teams.

If so the team may be ok letting West walk if the money is not right & either signing another guard or re-signing D.J. Augistine to play along side Hill.

Danny matches up very well vs. a lot of 4's anyway and as he gets older he may progress to that position.

Especially when you look at lineups that Eastern Playoff teams throw out.

Miami plays LeBron at the 4, Danny has to guard him.
The Knicks (Stretch to call them a playoff team, haha) play Melo at the 4.
The Celtics will at times play Pierce at the 4, with Rondo/Bradley/Lee in the backcourt.
the Bulls at times pushed Deng up to the 4, although I doubt they'd do that now with Rose out.
The Sixers often played a 3 at the 4.

Not a terrible thought, but I'm not saying I'm in favor of watching West walk.

Really though, threads like these with the obnoxious fighting/sarcasm make it difficult to enjoy coming to this site, especially during the offseason. No one is willing to admit they are wrong, or even that the other person is right. vnzla often makes quality points, but does so in a manner that is offensive to many other posters and doesn't foster further conversation and discussion. Then people respond by being offensive to vn, and the cycle goes on and on.

It's too bad, really.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 10:38 AM
Really though, threads like these with the obnoxious fighting/sarcasm make it difficult to enjoy coming to this site, especially during the offseason. No one is willing to admit they are wrong, or even that the other person is right. vnzla often makes quality points, but does so in a manner that is offensive to many other posters and doesn't foster further conversation and discussion. Then people respond by being offensive to vn, and the cycle goes on and on.

Where was I offensive?

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 11:13 AM
[QUOTE=daschysta;1508120]You do realize that players tend to take about a year to fully come back from the type of injury West had right?

I know that it takes a while for somebody to fully recover from a knee injury like the one West had, I also know that older players like him sometimes don't fully recover from an injury like that and they usually lose and step or two, not only because of the injury but because of age, that happens to a lot of players every year but it seems like many here are leaving in some type of alternate universe were older players don't get old and someway somehow they even get better than what they were in their prime.


He should be much better this season, he has been a consistent 19-21 ppg player for years, he won't score that much on a balanced team like ours, but he's alot better than you give him credit for

He was getting 18.9 before the injury and with CP3 feeding all the time, he is never going to get back to where he was before the injury, PLAYERS GET OLDER, the guy is going to be 33, why is so hard for people to understand this? Jeff Foster retired last year at 33 years of age, West is going to be lucky if he has two years left in him.

I also see that when you talk about him getting better you mean on the offensive side of the court, but why you and others don't talk about the defensive side of the court when you talk about him? or his lack of rebounding? I remember few years ago when the Pacers had a power forward that averaged 15 and 10 but the only thing everybody in PD would talk about was about his defense, now defense doesn't matter anymore?

By the way once again I'm coming across as a hater but I'm not, I know what he brings to the table, I also like his leadership, I like that he is vocal on the court but the thing that grind my gears around here is that many of the people that are elevating West into "Pacers MVP" status are the ones that when they talk about other players (specially Seth with Tyler Hansbrough) all of the sudden they remember that there is another side of the court.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 11:17 AM
Do you ever wonder if the Pacers do actually see Paul George as more of a 3 instead of a 2 if maybe they just move Danny to the 4?

In today's NBA Danny at the 4 would be more than capable vs. most teams.

If so the team may be ok letting West walk if the money is not right & either signing another guard or re-signing D.J. Augistine to play along side Hill.

Danny matches up very well vs. a lot of 4's anyway and as he gets older he may progress to that position.

Starting to miss Posey? :-p

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 11:23 AM
Not trying to start an argument or anything like that but I'm pretty sure a lot of power forwards can score 12ppg, hell even Tyler in his horrible year last year was able to average 9ppg.

Let's bend those stats a little more shall we?

Tyler scored 9PPG at a blistering 40.5% shooting.

West scored 12.8 at 48.7% shooting....coming off an ACL injury.

Tyler Hansbrough was maybe the single biggest detriment to any team's offense in the entire league last season. He was that bad. He was a black hole of epic proportions.

It should be noted West's scoring went up in the playoffs to nearly 15 PPG while still shooting right around 45% from the field. West has been nearly a 50% shooter his whole career. Comparing Tyler and West in any way on the offensive end is just not something one can do. There is a big, big skill gap between the two of them.

Now, as far as what the Pacers will do with West, I think that will be a big factor in how well the team does this year. West doesn't seem like type to chase money, so if his family is happy here, the Pacers are winning, I could see us offering him a 4 year deal for around $20million.

daschysta
10-10-2012, 11:23 AM
[QUOTE]

I know that it takes a while for somebody to fully recover from a knee injury like the one West had, I also know that older players like him sometimes don't fully recover from an injury like that and they usually lose and step or two, not only because of the injury but because of age, that happens to a lot of players every year but it seems like many here are leaving in some type of alternate universe were older players don't get old and someway somehow they even get better than what they were in their prime.



He was getting 18.9 before the injury and with CP3 feeding all the time, he is never going to get back to where he was before the injury, PLAYERS GET OLDER, the guy is going to be 33, why is so hard for people to understand this? Jeff Foster retired last year at 33 years of age, West is going to be lucky if he has two years left in him.

I also see that when you talk about him getting better you mean on the offensive side of the court, but why you and others don't talk about the defensive side of the court when you talk about him? or his lack of rebounding? I remember few years ago when the Pacers had a power forward that averaged 15 and 10 but the only thing everybody in PD would talk about was about his defense, now defense doesn't matter anymore?

By the way once again I'm coming across as a hater but I'm not, I know what he brings to the table, I also like his leadership, I like that he is vocal on the court but the thing that grind my gears around here is that many of the people that are elevating West into "Pacers MVP" status are the ones that when they talk about other players (specially Seth with Tyler Hansbrough) all of the sudden they remember that there is another side of the court.

Who says that he's better than he was in his prime? There is a big difference between that and saying he could likely average more than he did last year with an offseason of training instead of rehab.

Plus, it isn't like West ever really relied on athleticism all that much, and 32 isn't exactly ancient for a power forward. He should age nicely, and he did noticeably improve later in the season, consistent with regaining confidence in his knee. He was a 15 ppg on 54% in 28ish minutes in April and was 15-8 in the playoffs, where defenses are tougher and points are harder to come by. It isn't like the dude is washed up. I don't think he's our MVP or anything, but he's an important piece. As for whether he'll fully come back all sources point towards yes, be it West, who claims he feels better than he has in years physically (and West isn't the type to BS) to observers of our training camp, who have pointed out he is more spry than he was last season.

Foster has nothing to do with West, Foster dealt with chronic back problems for years, that is why he retired, not because he was too old to play. West on the otherhand has been very healthy and injury free, no chronic problems, the freak injury during his final season in NO is really the only issue, and it appears to be an isolated incident.

I don't really count on West for great defense or plus rebounding, his major contributions are on offense, and he should be better there than last year. Who says defense doesn't matter? That is a separate issue entirely from the argument that his game will be improved with full health and an offseason of training, don't move the goalposts. As for Murphy, West scores the ball in more useful ways (you can actually give him the ball and he'll make a play with it, unlike murphy who was pretty much just a shooter) a better passer, and yes, he isn't as bad as murphy on defense. His contract also isn't killing the team, not to mention intangibles.


Additionally West was never made by CP3, in 2009-2010 CP3 missed almost all of February and March and April

West put up

19.7 ppg on 47 percent in february
21.2 ppg on 54 percent in march
19.2 ppg on 56.5 percent in april

West was who he was/is with or without CP3. In fact that year he put up BETTER numbers with CP3 out.

PacersHomer
10-10-2012, 11:26 AM
Just like to remind everyone that this will be West's first full healthy season since he signed here. It was obvious at the beginning of the year he was still adjusting to his post-injury recovery.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 11:30 AM
[QUOTE=Trader Joe;1508176]Let's bend those stats a little more shall we?

Tyler scored 9PPG at a blistering 40.5% shooting.

West scored 12.8 at 48.7% shooting....coming off an ACL injury.

Tyler Hansbrough was maybe the single biggest detriment to any team's offense in the entire league last season. He was that bad. He was a black hole of epic proportions.

Yes Tyler was crap last year.


It should be noted West's scoring went up in the playoffs to nearly 15 PPG while still shooting right around 45% from the field. West has been nearly a 50% shooter his whole career.

It should be also noted that West didn't play against a good defensive PF on the playoffs either, we can't ignore that, I bet those numbers are different if Bosh was healthy.


Comparing Tyler and West in any way on the offensive end is just not something one can do. There is a big, big skill gap between the two of them.

I agree.


Now, as far as what the Pacers will do with West, I think that will be a big factor in how well the team does this year. West doesn't seem like type to chase money, so if his family is happy here, the Pacers are winning, I could see us offering him a 4 year deal for around $20million.

Remember when people thought that Roy was going to take a pay cut? yeah whoever offers West the most money is going to get him and I really hope they don't sign him for 4 years.

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 11:31 AM
Love, Josh Smith,Ryan Anderson,Gasol, Dirk, Millsap, Andrea Bargnani,Amare, Zbo and Nene need to be on that list you posted, just because some of them shoot 3's and don't meet the requirements that you are talking about is not reason to punish them, at the end of the day they still play the position, what are you going to post next? players that go left more per game making West a top 5 left handed scorer?

Let's see what Ryan Anderson does with no Dwight Howard. You are complaining about West's D and rebounding yet you list Bargnani?

Are you not going to give West any credit for his leadership and impact on the locker room? We know you want to upgrade the talent on the roster. Do you really think sacrificing West's leadership is the best place to do that at?

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 11:32 AM
Especially when you look at lineups that Eastern Playoff teams throw out.

Miami plays LeBron at the 4, Danny has to guard him.
The Knicks (Stretch to call them a playoff team, haha) play Melo at the 4.
The Celtics will at times play Pierce at the 4, with Rondo/Bradley/Lee in the backcourt.
the Bulls at times pushed Deng up to the 4, although I doubt they'd do that now with Rose out.
The Sixers often played a 3 at the 4.

Not a terrible thought, but I'm not saying I'm in favor of watching West walk.

Really though, threads like these with the obnoxious fighting/sarcasm make it difficult to enjoy coming to this site, especially during the offseason. No one is willing to admit they are wrong, or even that the other person is right. vnzla often makes quality points, but does so in a manner that is offensive to many other posters and doesn't foster further conversation and discussion. Then people respond by being offensive to vn, and the cycle goes on and on.

It's too bad, really.

Kind of OT, but Melo has said he does not want to play PF this year.

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE]

Yes Tyler was crap last year.



It should be also noted that West didn't play against a good defensive PF on the playoffs either, we can't ignore that, I bet those numbers are different if Bosh was healthy.



I agree.



Remember when people thought that Roy was going to take a pay cut? yeah whoever offers West the most money is going to get him and I really hope they don't sign him for 4 years.

Didn't West get offered more guaranteed money by the Celtics already? 3 years, 27 million? And he turned it down...so...

Also, I think Battier is a much better defensive player than Bosh, and Bosh would have been guarding Hibbert anyway as he was for all of game 1 before his injury.

Ace E.Anderson
10-10-2012, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE]

I know that it takes a while for somebody to fully recover from a knee injury like the one West had, I also know that older players like him sometimes don't fully recover from an injury like that and they usually lose and step or two, not only because of the injury but because of age, that happens to a lot of players every year but it seems like many here are leaving in some type of alternate universe were older players don't get old and someway somehow they even get better than what they were in their prime.



He was getting 18.9 before the injury and with CP3 feeding all the time, he is never going to get back to where he was before the injury, PLAYERS GET OLDER, the guy is going to be 33, why is so hard for people to understand this? Jeff Foster retired last year at 33 years of age, West is going to be lucky if he has two years left in him.

I also see that when you talk about him getting better you mean on the offensive side of the court, but why you and others don't talk about the defensive side of the court when you talk about him? or his lack of rebounding? I remember few years ago when the Pacers had a power forward that averaged 15 and 10 but the only thing everybody in PD would talk about was about his defense, now defense doesn't matter anymore?

By the way once again I'm coming across as a hater but I'm not, I know what he brings to the table, I also like his leadership, I like that he is vocal on the court but the thing that grind my gears around here is that many of the people that are elevating West into "Pacers MVP" status are the ones that when they talk about other players (specially Seth with Tyler Hansbrough) all of the sudden they remember that there is another side of the court.

Didn't you want us to pick up Luis Scola this offseason? Luis is probably even less athletic than West, and is 4 months older than West. So why would we want to dump West, yet try and sign Scola when they're the same age, and play basically the same way?

I agree with you that West will decline as he gets older. Though I think he'll put up big numbers this year, I think he would be best utilized as a 6th man type PF off the bench after this season. Idk if he would want to go for that, but I think it'd extend his career, allow him to finish up as a Pacer (I've heard his family likes it here) and allows the team to utilize what skills he has left, while not having to fully rely on an aging, average defender/rebouder from the starting PF spot.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 11:41 AM
Who says that he's better than he was in his prime? There is a big difference between that and saying he could likely average more than he did last year with an offseason of training instead of rehab.

Expecting 19/21ppg from West is expecting him to be better than in his prime and with CP3 feeding him, maybe you don't mean it that way but that is how it looks to me, West averaged 21ppg only one time.


Plus, it isn't like West ever really relied on athleticism all that much, and 32 isn't exactly ancient for a power forward. He should age nicely, and he did noticeably improve later in the season, consistent with regaining confidence in his knee. He was a 15 ppg on 54% in 28ish minutes in April and was 15-8 in the playoffs, where defenses are tougher and points are harder to come by. It isn't like the dude is washed up. I don't think he's our MVP or anything, but he's an important piece. As for whether he'll fully come back all sources point towards yes, be it West, who claims he feels better than he has in years physically (and West isn't the type to BS) to observers of our training camp, who have pointed out he is more spry than he was last season.

We will have to see, I remember hearing the same thing from JO every single year.


Foster has nothing to do with West, Foster dealt with chronic back problems for years, that is why he retired, not because he was too old to play. West on the otherhand has been very healthy and injury free, no chronic problems, the freak injury during his final season in NO is really the only issue, and it appears to be an isolated incident.

Back problems and too old to play, 33 is old in the NBA.


I don't really count on West for great defense or plus rebounding, his major contributions are on offense, and he should be better there than last year. Who says defense doesn't matter? That is a separate issue entirely from the argument that his game will be improved with full health and an offseason of training, don't move the goalposts. As for Murphy, West scores the ball in more useful ways (you can actually give him the ball and he'll make a play with it, unlike murphy who was pretty much just a shooter) a better passer, and yes, he isn't as bad as murphy on defense. His contract also isn't killing the team, not to mention intangibles.

Unless your plan is to play West on the offensive side and then sub him and have somebody else playing D then the argument is not separate, if he is on the court he needs to play in both sides so nope I'm not moving no goalpost.

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 11:43 AM
West and JO's bodies are clearly maintained at completely different levels. JO was never as cut as West is even in his prime. JO was obviously more talented, but West will have the longer career IMO. JO was a pudge by the time his years in Indy were through. Whether that was through injuries or what, JO talked a lot about being in shape, West is just about being in shape.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 11:47 AM
Trader Joe;1508186]Let's see what Ryan Anderson does with no Dwight Howard. You are complaining about West's D and rebounding yet you list Bargnani?

Yes Bargnani sucks at rebounding that doesn't mean that he is not on that list.



Are you not going to give West any credit for his leadership and impact on the locker room? We know you want to upgrade the talent on the roster. Do you really think sacrificing West's leadership is the best place to do that at?

I did, go back few posts and read what I posted, yes I like his leadership and his impact on the locker room but at the end of the day you need players that get it done and make you better and if the goal is to make it to a championship there has to be an upgrade at that position.

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 11:48 AM
Why not keep West's leadership and strength at PF and try to upgrade SG or SF? That would be my logic if I was building the team right now. I would only upgrade West if it was a very large upgrade from someone who was not viewed as a locker room killer. How many PF's are on that list? Maybe 2 or 3?

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 11:52 AM
Didn't you want us to pick up Luis Scola this offseason? Luis is probably even less athletic than West, and is 4 months older than West. So why would we want to dump West, yet try and sign Scola when they're the same age, and play basically the same way?

I agree with you that West will decline as he gets older. Though I think he'll put up big numbers this year, I think he would be best utilized as a 6th man type PF off the bench after this season. Idk if he would want to go for that, but I think it'd extend his career, allow him to finish up as a Pacer (I've heard his family likes it here) and allows the team to utilize what skills he has left, while not having to fully rely on an aging, average defender/rebouder from the starting PF spot.

Scola was pretty much there for free that's the reason why I wanted him, not only that but he could have been a pretty good option off the bench replacing Tyler, I don't think Scola makes the Pacers championship contenders either.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 11:57 AM
Why not keep West's leadership and strength at PF and try to upgrade SG or SF? That would be my logic if I was building the team right now. I would only upgrade West if it was a very large upgrade from someone who was not viewed as a locker room killer. How many PF's are on that list? Maybe 2 or 3?

Because West is the older player that is also going to be a free agent? yes his leadership is nice but you still need talent at that position, I get that many of you put leadership in front of talent for some reason but as we all know talent triumphs over leadership every time.

Since86
10-10-2012, 11:58 AM
Scola was pretty much there for free that's the reason why I wanted him.

3yrs/13M is pretty much free?

EDIT: And in reality, Phoenix is giving him closer to 3/14M, so the Pacers or any other team would have needed to put in an even pricer bid to get him.

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 12:00 PM
Because West is the older player that is also going to be a free agent? yes his leadership is nice but you still need talent at that position, I get that many of you put leadership in front of talent for some reason but as we all know talent triumphs over leadership every time.

You are looking at this way too black and white IMO. Yes he is older and yes he is going to be a free agent, but that doesn't mean that a situation won't present itself where you could upgrade the 2 or the 3 and keep West on a reasonable deal. Saying welp, he's a free agent and older so we might as well just throw our hands up in the air and let him walk is not problem solving, that's just accepting the situation.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 12:06 PM
3yrs/13M is pretty much free?

EDIT: And in reality, Phoenix is giving him closer to 3/14M, so the Pacers or any other team would have needed to put in an even pricer bid to get him.

4.3mil a year for Scola is pretty much free, 4.3mil for a guy like West would also be pretty much free, having either player for that amount of money to come off the bench is a good deal in my opinion.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 12:13 PM
You are looking at this way too black and white IMO. Yes he is older and yes he is going to be a free agent, but that doesn't mean that a situation won't present itself where you could upgrade the 2 or the 3 and keep West on a reasonable deal. Saying welp, he's a free agent and older so we might as well just throw our hands up in the air and let him walk is not problem solving, that's just accepting the situation.

The thing to me is that West is not part of the future, why remove either PG or Danny so you can keep him? I think the Pacers need to go younger, they should aim to have multiple players hitting their prime at the same time, without a superstar that is the only hope a team like the Pacers have, Hill, Roy and Paul George are going to hit their primes pretty much at the same time, why not get two young players that can do the same thing?

Many here talk about the "Detroit way" but forget to mention that the reason why they were so good was because their whole starting unit hit their prime at the same time, that to me is the way to do it.

Since86
10-10-2012, 12:14 PM
I guess I didn't realize that almost 10% of the salary cap is pretty much free.

pacergod2
10-10-2012, 12:14 PM
I think we keep West. I think it is our full intention of keeping him and I believe that we will sign him to a three year deal for roughly $24M. Daivd West has a game that translates extremely well as he ages. He can play Center minutes as he gets older as well.

His rebounding and defense aren't nearly as bad as what is being conveyed. He is an excellent team defender with his rotations and always making the right decisions. He lacked lateral quickness last year, which hurt him more than anything, but that is more a result of his knee injury and improves with time. He isn't going to block a ton of shots either. But he is light years better than Troy Murphy on defense and more conducive to our team concept on offense as well. Troy was never in DWest's ball park. David West is a good rebounder, but he is better for our team as a rebounder. We have long wings who rebound well. And we have a giant in the middle who rebounds high up. What we get from West is the tough rebounds where he bodies guys out of the lane. He frees up the other guys for rebounds a lot that he doesn't get credit for in the box score.

What he does is fit our team perfectly style wise. He runs that high to low post game wonderfully well on offense. He passes very well and moves without the ball to compensate for defensive rotations. He fills the lane. He hits the outside jumper that none of our other bigs can. He bodies up other players on defense better than anyone else on our team. Did you see Lebron James trying with all of his might to fight against West in the post? He might be a bit slower than he used to be, but speed has never been a great skill of his. He is strong and tough and that is the primary thing we need from the PF spot as this team is constructed.

David West is worth more to this team than he would be to other teams because of the way he fits the roster. He covers skill sets that we wouldn't other wise have. We would be dumb as a franchise to not pursue signing a very capable player who CHOSE US AS A FREE AGENT! We all complain about that, and we are a franchise that needs to convey loyalty. I'm not saying make all decisions on loyalty per se, but I think it would be a slap in the face to other free agents who would even consider Indy. He is mature and a family man. That can't be stated enough. He fits Indy. He isn't some young hot shot who wants to go get laid at 5 in the morning at clubs with skanky women. Those guys play in NYC and LA and Miami.

The only way I don't see us re-signing him is if he gets injured this year and we trade his expiring contract.

hackashaq
10-10-2012, 12:20 PM
Didn't West get offered more guaranteed money by the Celtics already? 3 years, 27 million? And he turned it down...so...

Also, I think Battier is a much better defensive player than Bosh, and Bosh would have been guarding Hibbert anyway as he was for all of game 1 before his injury.

off topic, but are you sure it was 27 mil? i was under impression it was 8 mil per

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 12:22 PM
The thing to me is that West is not part of the future, why remove either PG or Danny so you can keep him? I think the Pacers need to go younger, they should aim to have multiple players hitting their prime at the same time, without a superstar that is the only hope a team like the Pacers have, Hill, Roy and Paul George are going to hit their primes pretty much at the same time, why not get two young players that can do the same thing?

Many here talk about the "Detroit way" but forget to mention that the reason why they were so good was because their whole starting unit hit their prime at the same time, that to me is the way to do it.

Rasheed was hitting his prime the same time as the rest of Detroit's starting 5?

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 12:22 PM
off topic, but are you sure it was 27 mil? i was under impression it was 8 mil per

I don't remmeber for certain, but I thought it was 9mil per.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 12:27 PM
Rasheed was hitting his prime the same time as the rest of Detroit's starting 5?

Not hitting his prime but he was in his prime, he was 29 years old when he went to Detroit.



edit: And the Celtics offer to West was 27/29 mil for 3 years but the deal didn't go through because the Celtics were not able to find a taker for JO's expiring contract, if the Celtics would have found a taker West would be a Celtic and not a Pacer.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33779836

Ace E.Anderson
10-10-2012, 12:37 PM
Not hitting his prime but he was in his prime, he was 29 years old when he went to Detroit.



edit: And the Celtics offer to West was 27/29 mil for 3 years but the deal didn't go through because the Celtics were not able to find a taker for JO's expiring contract, if the Celtics would have found a taker West would be a Celtic and not a Pacer.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33779836

In spite of your link, IIRC didnt West go on record saying he didnt have anything done with Boston and that he was coming here regardless? Wasn't that why Ray Allen got mad or whatever?

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 12:43 PM
In spite of your link, IIRC didnt West go on record saying he didnt have anything done with Boston and that he was coming here regardless? Wasn't that why Ray Allen got mad or whatever?

That's my memory of it as well.

iogyhufi
10-10-2012, 01:01 PM
In spite of your link, IIRC didnt West go on record saying he didnt have anything done with Boston and that he was coming here regardless? Wasn't that why Ray Allen got mad or whatever?


That's my memory of it as well.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but do you really think a player would say "Well, I wanted to be a Celtic, but they couldn't afford me. So I guess Indiana will have to do."

Trader Joe
10-10-2012, 01:05 PM
If y'all wanna just be cynics all the time that is fine, but David West has done nothing to show that he is not a straight shooter.

purdue101
10-10-2012, 01:23 PM
[QUOTE]

I know that it takes a while for somebody to fully recover from a knee injury like the one West had, I also know that older players like him sometimes don't fully recover from an injury like that and they usually lose and step or two, not only because of the injury but because of age, that happens to a lot of players every year but it seems like many here are leaving in some type of alternate universe were older players don't get old and someway somehow they even get better than what they were in their prime.



He was getting 18.9 before the injury and with CP3 feeding all the time, he is never going to get back to where he was before the injury, PLAYERS GET OLDER, the guy is going to be 33, why is so hard for people to understand this? Jeff Foster retired last year at 33 years of age, West is going to be lucky if he has two years left in him.

I also see that when you talk about him getting better you mean on the offensive side of the court, but why you and others don't talk about the defensive side of the court when you talk about him? or his lack of rebounding? I remember few years ago when the Pacers had a power forward that averaged 15 and 10 but the only thing everybody in PD would talk about was about his defense, now defense doesn't matter anymore?

By the way once again I'm coming across as a hater but I'm not, I know what he brings to the table, I also like his leadership, I like that he is vocal on the court but the thing that grind my gears around here is that many of the people that are elevating West into "Pacers MVP" status are the ones that when they talk about other players (specially Seth with Tyler Hansbrough) all of the sudden they remember that there is another side of the court.

You do realize he takes less shots per game and plays fewer minutes? He plays in an entirely different system where the minutes and scoring are spread. I guarantee you the Pacers were cautious with his minutes too due to the ACL recovery. You constantly evaluate players by their PPG or RPG, when in reality it should be based upon efficiency (percentages and statistics per 36 mins). It's ridiculous that you're even evaluating a player based upon those statistics without pealing back the layers. Jeff Pendegraph could average 20PPG if we gave him 25 shots and you'd want to toss him the max.

So, let's compare apples to apples here and look at his stats adjusted for shots taken and minutes played. 2008 was his best year (all-star)

YR 2008 2011
PPG 21 21 (adjusted for attempts)
RB/36 7.8 8.1
AS/36 2.1 2.6
STL/36 .6 1
BLK/36 .8 .9
TO/36 2 1.7
PER 18.9 17.8
TS% 54% 53%

Wow, what a huge decline. Sure you can say we need to upgrade the PF position to win a championship, but the same could be said for any position. With the exception of Hibbert, West is no further down the talent list for his position than Danny, Paul, or Hill. You just have an agenda with West.

hackashaq
10-10-2012, 01:40 PM
You do realize he takes less shots per game and plays fewer minutes? He plays in an entirely different system where the minutes and scoring are spread. I guarantee you the Pacers were cautious with his minutes too due to the ACL recovery. You constantly evaluate players by their PPG or RPG, when in reality it should be based upon efficiency (percentages and statistics per 36 mins). It's ridiculous that you're even evaluating a player based upon those statistics without pealing back the layers. Jeff Pendegraph could average 20PPG if we gave him 25 shots and you'd want to toss him the max.

So, let's compare apples to apples here and look at his stats adjusted for shots taken and minutes played. 2008 was his best year (all-star)

YR 2008 2011
PPG 21 21 (adjusted for attempts)
RB/36 7.8 8.1
AS/36 2.1 2.6
STL/36 .6 1
BLK/36 .8 .9
TO/36 2 1.7
PER 18.9 17.8
TS% 54% 53%

Wow, what a huge decline. Sure you can say we need to upgrade the PF position to win a championship, but the same could be said for any position. With the exception of Hibbert, West is no further down the talent list for his position than Danny, Paul, or Hill. You just have an agenda with West.

good post. how did you adjust PER for shots taken?
re the final point, I think Danny is probably the highest on the talent list in the league, if we are looking at position depth. SF isn't very deep right now.

Ace E.Anderson
10-10-2012, 01:45 PM
good post. how did you adjust PER for shots taken?
re the final point, I think Danny is probably the highest on the talent list in the league, if we are looking at position depth. SF isn't very deep right now.

Lebron, Durant, Anthony, Pierce, Iguodala, Gay, Danny, Deng, Marion, Walllace...

SF is one of the deepest positions in the league. Least IMO

Ace E.Anderson
10-10-2012, 02:01 PM
Just playing devil's advocate here, but do you really think a player would say "Well, I wanted to be a Celtic, but they couldn't afford me. So I guess Indiana will have to do."

If he really wanted to go to BOS he could have waited out the process. It was fairly early in the FA period. We paid him 2 mil less than what he would've received as a Celtic.

Also, if it was simply a matter of Boston not being able to afford West, why would Ray Allen make negative comments in regards to the fact that West signed here instead of with Boston? Just doesn't add up to me.

Gamble1
10-10-2012, 02:02 PM
I am not sure why you guys are arguing with V here. He didn't like the West signing before so he won't like it now.

In either case you got to know whats available for a reasonable price and make a decision then. IF Milsaps there for 10 million then you take it. If West is willing to go down in his yearly salary and there is no better option then you take it.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 02:06 PM
[QUOTE=vnzla81;1508171]

You do realize he takes less shots per game and plays fewer minutes? He plays in an entirely different system where the minutes and scoring are spread. I guarantee you the Pacers were cautious with his minutes too due to the ACL recovery. You constantly evaluate players by their PPG or RPG, when in reality it should be based upon efficiency (percentages and statistics per 36 mins). It's ridiculous that you're even evaluating a player based upon those statistics without pealing back the layers. Jeff Pendegraph could average 20PPG if we gave him 25 shots and you'd want to toss him the max.

So, let's compare apples to apples here and look at his stats adjusted for shots taken and minutes played. 2008 was his best year (all-star)

YR 2008 2011
PPG 21 21 (adjusted for attempts)
RB/36 7.8 8.1
AS/36 2.1 2.6
STL/36 .6 1
BLK/36 .8 .9
TO/36 2 1.7
PER 18.9 17.8
TS% 54% 53%

Wow, what a huge decline. Sure you can say we need to upgrade the PF position to win a championship, but the same could be said for any position. With the exception of Hibbert, West is no further down the talent list for his position than Danny, Paul, or Hill. You just have an agenda with West.

Per 36min is one of the tools but not the tool, Roy's per 36min is amazing but guess what? He can't play 36min, the same goes with a lot of players, for example Dahntay Jones in per 36 could average 17ppg and 8 fouls per game.....

Edit: By the way, Barbosa's per 36min is as good as anybody in the NBA does that means that he needs to play 36mpg? No!

hackashaq
10-10-2012, 02:09 PM
Lebron, Durant, Anthony, Pierce, Iguodala, Gay, Danny, Deng, Marion, Walllace...

SF is one of the deepest positions in the league. Least IMO
Yeah, it's basically 8 or 7 deep when it comes to marginal All Stars (depends on where you count Iggy, since he'll play mostly 2 this year). And Danny's anywhere from 4 to 7 (8).
Marion and Wallace don't really belong there, though. I'd take Gallinari, Batum, Wilson Chandler over both of them easily - and I think all of these are in a lower tier compared to Danny/Gay/Deng types as well.

Center position is deeper right now. It's not as deep in Hall of Fame talent, but when it comes to marginal all stars, there are many.

Gamble1
10-10-2012, 02:10 PM
If he really wanted to go to BOS he could have waited out the process. It was fairly early in the FA period. We paid him 2 mil less than what he would've received as a Celtic.

Also, if it was simply a matter of Boston not being able to afford West, why would Ray Allen make negative comments in regards to the fact that West signed here instead of with Boston? Just doesn't add up to me.

How I remember it is that Boston offered 3 years with less money per year and Pacers offered 2 years with more money per year. West chose Indy because it was a deeper team at the time and he didn't want to be on a top heavy team with no bench.

My speculation here is that he didn't want to get locked in for 3 years at a lower salary for the 3rd year and lose out on the next contract. He also wanted an easy transition from his injury and not to be forced minutes to remain competitive as a team. Add in Bostons age and salary constraints with their prime players and its a fair assumption on his part.

Gamble1
10-10-2012, 02:36 PM
Per 36min is one of the tools but not the tool, Roy's per 36min is amazing but guess what? He can't play 36min, the same goes with a lot of players, for example Dahntay Jones in per 36 could average 17ppg and 8 fouls per game.....

Edit: By the way, Barbosa's per 36min is as good as anybody in the NBA does that means that he needs to play 36mpg? No!

Lets put this to rest shall we..

Go to basketball reference and do season split and look up how many games David West played atleast 30-39 minutes.

Thats 33 games with a average of 33.7 minutes per game. He averaged 15 ppg with 7.5 rpg while shooting .494 FG%.

Contrast that with 08-09 David West and you have 29 games with an average of 36.2 mpg. He averaged 17.8 ppg and 7.9 rpg with a FG% of .465.

Thats being the second best player on his team with now being the 3rd best player and no longer the focal point. Thats still good production IMO and I believe most of the board would agree with me here.

Also never mind it was a condensed season with more back to backs than any other season he has played so on that note I think your argument is pretty silly and borderline petty.

Ace E.Anderson
10-10-2012, 02:37 PM
How I remember it is that Boston offered 3 years with less money per year and Pacers offered 2 years with more money per year. West chose Indy because it was a deeper team at the time and he didn't want to be on a top heavy team with no bench.

My speculation here is that he didn't want to get locked in for 3 years at a lower salary for the 3rd year and lose out on the next contract. He also wanted an easy transition from his injury and not to be forced minutes to remain competitive as a team. Add in Bostons age and salary constraints with their prime players and its a fair assumption on his part.

You're 100% correct.

I was trying to make the claim that West WANTED to come here, and didn't just decide to come here simply b/c Boston didn't have enough money to give him what he wanted. Yes he would have made a smaller annual salary, but it wasn't significantly less.

Gamble1
10-10-2012, 02:39 PM
You're 100% correct.

I was trying to make the claim that West WANTED to come here, and didn't just decide to come here simply b/c Boston didn't have enough money to give him what he wanted. Yes he would have made a smaller annual salary, but it wasn't significantly less.

IT came out to be around 500,000 dollars less and I believe West pointed this out and made it clear why he wanted to come to Indy over Boston.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 02:47 PM
Lets put this to rest shall we..

Go to basketball reference and do season split and look up how many games David West played atleast 30-39 minutes.

Thats 33 games with a average of 33.7 minutes per game. He averaged 15 ppg with 7.5 rpg while shooting .494 FG%.

Contrast that with 08-09 David West and you have 29 games with an average of 36.2 mpg. He averaged 17.8 ppg and 7.9 rpg with a FG% of .465.

Thats being the second best player on his team with now being the 3rd best player and no longer the focal point. Thats still good production IMO and I believe most of the board would agree with me here.

Also never mind it was a condensed season with more back to backs than any other season he has played so on that note I think your argument is pretty silly and almost petty.

Everytime I try to have a good conversation somebody craps all over the argument that I'm having :rolleyes:

Good try though next time show me how he averaged 30ppg in 10 games last year and that his numbers are as good as Love...... you like it or not he averaged 12ppg last year so nope he is not the guy you think he is.

purdue101
10-10-2012, 03:15 PM
[QUOTE=purdue101;1508250]

Per 36min is one of the tools but not the tool, Roy's per 36min is amazing but guess what? He can't play 36min, the same goes with a lot of players, for example Dahntay Jones in per 36 could average 17ppg and 8 fouls per game.....

Edit: By the way, Barbosa's per 36min is as good as anybody in the NBA does that means that he needs to play 36mpg? No!

Not that I'm surprised, but you're missing the point. I'm not stating whether a player is good or not by 36 mpg stats, or even comparing different players. I'm using the tool to look at a single player and trends in their output over time, which is what we are discussing. You said West's scoring ability is declining. When input is set contstant (mins, FGA, etc), West's output is not declining, which is the argument you are trying to make (and has been proven incorrect).

Let's put things into a real world scenario for you. I see on your profile that you're an auto mechanic. Let's say I buy a set of Bridgestone tires off you, drive 2 years, 50,000 miles, and then come back and purchase a second set. After only 1 year the second set is in need of replacement - does that mean they were bad or declining in performance. Of course not, it depends on whether my input (in this case mileage) was any different.

You can't pass judgement on a change in West's output until you neutralize the input. I know it's a beyond an elementary concept, but think about it.........

BillS
10-10-2012, 03:20 PM
Everytime I try to have a good conversation somebody craps all over the argument that I'm having :rolleyes:

Good try though next time show me how he averaged 30ppg in 10 games last year and that his numbers are as good as Love...... you like it or not he averaged 12ppg last year so nope he is not the guy you think he is.

But this is where you have to look at more than just raw numbers to understand WHY.

We have a guy with a good per-36 number. OK, that isn't unusual, a scrub playing 5 minutes of garbage time can have a great per-36.

In this case, though, you have two things that make West's per-36 worth considering. First is that he's a starter. He's not playing garbage time nor is he matched up against scrubs. Second is that when he has games where he place close to 36 minutes his scoring actually approaches the per-36 number. That is pretty important because it means the per-36 isn't somehow due to a burst of production in short minutes.

So, you point out, his OVERALL average was MUCH lower than his per-36, and a guy with similar numbers is considered to be a much better player.

This is where you have to start looking around to explain WHY that is instead of just saying that somehow the statistics are wrong. Is it that West commonly played far fewer minutes and therefore didn't have the opportunity to hit the scoring he could hit when playing over 30 minutes? If so, WHY was he playing fewer minutes? Were his shooting percentages bad in the games he played fewer minutes (in other words, he is inconsistent offensively)? Is it that he was pulled for defensive reasons (which I know you would focus on)?

Fitting a team together isn't about picking a statistic and finding everyone who is best at that statistic - all single statistics are flawed because they only show part of the picture. It is about figuring out WHY guys have certain statistics and whether another player can help overcome the weaknesses that are shown in this player's statistics while allowing him to use his strengths.

CJ Jones
10-10-2012, 03:36 PM
Lebron, Durant, Anthony, Pierce, Iguodala, Gay, Danny, Deng, Marion, Walllace...

SF is one of the deepest positions in the league. Least IMO

If were talking all around game I agree, but despite the lack of superstar talent SG is still the tougher position to defend IMO. PPG, usage rates, etc, all favor SGs.

Ace E.Anderson
10-10-2012, 03:45 PM
If were talking all around game I agree, but despite the lack of superstar talent SG is still the tougher position to defend IMO. PPG, usage rates, etc, all favor SGs.

Tougher than PG? 2 guard is hard to guard, but only if one is a dynamic ball handler.

CJ Jones
10-10-2012, 04:01 PM
Tougher than PG? 2 guard is hard to guard, but only if one is a dynamic ball handler.

my bad... i meant between wings. PG is probably the toughest position in the league defend.

Gamble1
10-10-2012, 04:05 PM
Everytime I try to have a good conversation somebody craps all over the argument that I'm having :rolleyes:

Good try though next time show me how he averaged 30ppg in 10 games last year and that his numbers are as good as Love...... you like it or not he averaged 12ppg last year so nope he is not the guy you think he is.

Whats your argument? THat David West can't play close to 36 minutes per game now and he use too? That his production dropped due to being older or injuried?

LIke I said before David West played half the season 33 games total averaging 34 minutes per game. Thats with coming back from an injury and playing a condensed schedule which could explain the drop of production alone.

Even out side of that you could explain the lack of production with his role on the team which isn't to be the primary option or even the primary option in the low post. Why is that not a logical answer to you I have no idea.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 04:06 PM
But this is where you have to look at more than just raw numbers to understand WHY.

We have a guy with a good per-36 number. OK, that isn't unusual, a scrub playing 5 minutes of garbage time can have a great per-36.

In this case, though, you have two things that make West's per-36 worth considering. First is that he's a starter. He's not playing garbage time nor is he matched up against scrubs. Second is that when he has games where he place close to 36 minutes his scoring actually approaches the per-36 number. That is pretty important because it means the per-36 isn't somehow due to a burst of production in short minutes.

So, you point out, his OVERALL average was MUCH lower than his per-36, and a guy with similar numbers is considered to be a much better player.

This is where you have to start looking around to explain WHY that is instead of just saying that somehow the statistics are wrong. Is it that West commonly played far fewer minutes and therefore didn't have the opportunity to hit the scoring he could hit when playing over 30 minutes? If so, WHY was he playing fewer minutes? Were his shooting percentages bad in the games he played fewer minutes (in other words, he is inconsistent offensively)? Is it that he was pulled for defensive reasons (which I know you would focus on)?

Fitting a team together isn't about picking a statistic and finding everyone who is best at that statistic - all single statistics are flawed because they only show part of the picture. It is about figuring out WHY guys have certain statistics and whether another player can help overcome the weaknesses that are shown in this player's statistics while allowing him to use his strengths.

You are making some good points but there is a reason why I go with the raw numbers of 12.8ppg and 6.6rpg, there are too many variables, by looking at West's games last year he played more than 36 minutes only 5 times, are people really expecting him to play 36+ minutes a game this year when he was only able to play 36+ minutes 5 times? the odds are against it.

There is also the age issue, I don't think he is going to be able to play that many minutes anymore, his defense is also going to affect his ability to stay on the floor, I expect West to put good numbers in the beginning of the year by the way and I know I'm going to get crap for it but at the end of the year I expect him to stay right were he was last year, not bad but not top 10 or top 15 as many think here.

Major Cold
10-10-2012, 04:20 PM
You are making some good points but there is a reason why I go with the raw numbers of 12.8ppg and 6.6rpg, there are too many variables, by looking at West's games last year he played more than 36 minutes only 5 times, are people really expecting him to play 36+ minutes a game this year when he was only able to play 36+ minutes 5 times? the odds are against it.


That is not the argument and you know it. It is clear that you think he is a below average scorer. They used 36per stats to show that is not the case. You rightfully said that 36per can be skewed. And BillS pointed out that sometimes it is. But in West's situation it isn't. You said he makes good points.

And then you said that we can't expect him to play 36 mpg. Come on dude. The point was that West is a good enough scorer, a below average overall defender, and average rebounder who plays 30 to 33 mpg and can healthily put up 14 to 16 ppg with 46 to 52 % from the field.

You aren't getting crap from me and others. There may be a few out there but don't lump all of us with them. You clearly don't like West, we understand. You have every right to not like him. But to say that he is below average as a scorer is flat wrong.

Major Cold
10-10-2012, 04:22 PM
FWIW, I say after the season we look for a PF that has the tools and personality to get us over the hump. And he is not available, or that man is West so be it. I do not want to sign anyone, any more because he is "our" guy. It is blind loyalty in a business that burns you for it. The goal is to win, not to be loyal to everyone who has benefited us.......*cough Artest *cough Croshere

daschysta
10-10-2012, 04:31 PM
You are making some good points but there is a reason why I go with the raw numbers of 12.8ppg and 6.6rpg, there are too many variables, by looking at West's games last year he played more than 36 minutes only 5 times, are people really expecting him to play 36+ minutes a game this year when he was only able to play 36+ minutes 5 times? the odds are against it.

There is also the age issue, I don't think he is going to be able to play that many minutes anymore, his defense is also going to affect his ability to stay on the floor, I expect West to put good numbers in the beginning of the year by the way and I know I'm going to get crap for it but at the end of the year I expect him to stay right were he was last year, not bad but not top 10 or top 15 as many think here.

Noone on the Pacers played more than 30 mpg last season except for Granger that is currently on the roster. Obviously some of the players are capable of doing so, but we chose to limit minutes last year, West played a ton of minutes in the playoffs, and has throughout his career. Roy Hibbert played the second most minutes per game of any current Pacer last season, think about that. It seems unfair to just look at the raw totals and not take that into consideration. By that metric none of our players are very good, which obviously isn't true, they had the 5th best record in the NBA.

Peck
10-10-2012, 04:41 PM
Also in fairness to West, even though I don't like his defense & his rebounding could be better, he did play quite a bit of his time on the floor last year as a 5. Remember whenever he & Tyler were on together it was West picking up & being guarded by the other teams Center.

Gamble1
10-10-2012, 04:43 PM
Everybody needs to remember that Vnzla81 thinks CP3 could get Hans David West type numbers and that Carl Landry would have been a better signing than David West last year.

In fairness that was in 2011 when David West recovery was in question but why all the hate now I have no clue.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 04:46 PM
Major Cold;1508308]That is not the argument and you know it. It is clear that you think he is a below average scorer. They used 36per stats to show that is not the case. You rightfully said that 36per can be skewed. And BillS pointed out that sometimes it is. But in West's situation it isn't. You said he makes good points.

I don't think he is an average scorer go back and read my reply's, I expect him to average a bit more than he did last year(maybe 13/14ppg), but not 20/21 as some has suggested, my issues is that many here love to talk about his offense while ignoring the other parts of his game, I brought up the NaphtownSeth's example in how he tell us how great West is while ignoring his D but when he talks about Tyler he craps all over the guy and also talks about Tyler's DEFENSE, people in this blog overate the crap out of the guy call him the "Pacers MPV" and the "most important player on the team" while also overrating the crap out of his leadership ability.


And then you said that we can't expect him to play 36 mpg. Come on dude. The point was that West is a good enough scorer, a below average overall defender, and average rebounder who plays 30 to 33 mpg and can healthily put up 14 to 16 ppg with 46 to 52 % from the field.

West is a good scorer, a pretty bad defender and a decent rebounder.


You aren't getting crap from me and others. There may be a few out there but don't lump all of us with them. You clearly don't like West, we understand. You have every right to not like him. But to say that he is below average as a scorer is flat wrong.

Like I said before is not that I don't like West, the part that grind my gears is the constant overrating of him in this blog, yes overrate him a bit I understand, but overrating him to the point that you think they are talking about Lebron, Howard or some superstar? No.

Edit: And also my other issue is that I hope the Pacers aim higher next year and don't sign West for the next 3 or 4 years to be the STARTER, if they were to sign him for 3mil a year to be the backup power forward I'm fine with that, but for him to be the starter for the next 2/3/4 years? No, if the Pacers want to compete for a championship they need to do better than West in my opinion.

Cousy47
10-10-2012, 04:49 PM
This is interesting. IIRC, Granger was an excellent post up player in college and for at least part of his first year with the Pacers. The Ps needed his ability to play the 2 and 3 defensively more than the post play. Danny may have been a little adverse to the banging after his knee injury. All that to say, if we can't keep DWest for whatever reason, or if Paul George should be a more natural SF, then Danny as our PF would not e a bad option. He can guard most of the 4s in the league and get his shot while being checked over almost all of them. The stretch option with Danny could cause less crowding in the paint if that would help Roy's offense. Just another option if we can't or don't want to keep West and none of the pieces available can replace him.

daschysta
10-10-2012, 04:57 PM
I don't think he is an average scorer go back and read my reply's, I expect him to average a bit more than he did last year(maybe 13/14ppg), but not 20/21 as some has suggested, my issues is that many here love to talk about his offense while ignoring the other parts of his game, I brought up the NaphtownSeth's example in how he tell us how great West is while ignoring his D but when he talks about Tyler he craps all over the guy and also talks about Tyler's DEFENSE, people in this blog overate the crap out of the guy call him the "Pacers MPV" and the "most important player on the team" while also overrating the crap out of his leadership ability.



West is a good scorer, a pretty bad defender and a decent rebounder.



Like I said before is not that I don't like West, the part that grind my gears is the constant overrating of him in this blog, yes overrate him a bit I understand, but overrating him to the point that you think they are talking about Lebron, Howard or some superstar? No.

Who predicted that he would score 20/21? I think you misunderstood, some people brought up the fact that he was recently scoring that much in support of the argument that he'll likely score more than he did last season next year due to health. Noone has even predicted an All-Star appearance for West next season, let alone compared him currently, or in his prime to Lebron or Howard, misrepresenting the arguments of the other side by using gross exaggerations is no way to discuss anything...

I would argue his leadership has been huge, you need to do no more than listen to his teammates talk about how big it has been to understand where that idea comes from. You are the one that said straight up, that West is in the bottom part of starting PF's offensively due to raw ppg. Who has argued that he's a great defender? You keep changing your argument friend. It's valid to do what Seth did because Tyler is horrible on offense and on defense. West is maybe a bit below average defensively, good offensively (worlds better than Tyler on that end) and brings his fundamentals and intangibles. Tyler is an even worse defender than West, neither are quick enough laterally to be very good there, but at least West understands team defensive concepts and doesn't hurt everyone else, Tyler on the other hand is constantly out of position and fouls way more.

hackashaq
10-10-2012, 05:04 PM
This is interesting. IIRC, Granger was an excellent post up player in college and for at least part of his first year with the Pacers. The Ps needed his ability to play the 2 and 3 defensively more than the post play. Danny may have been a little adverse to the banging after his knee injury. All that to say, if we can't keep DWest for whatever reason, or if Paul George should be a more natural SF, then Danny as our PF would not e a bad option. He can guard most of the 4s in the league and get his shot while being checked over almost all of them. The stretch option with Danny could cause less crowding in the paint if that would help Roy's offense. Just another option if we can't or don't want to keep West and none of the pieces available can replace him.

i don't love the idea of Granger as a full time 4. we don't really become fast with that lineup, we just get vulnerable vs. big teams. Now at least we are as big/strong/tough as anyone.

Gamble1
10-10-2012, 05:05 PM
Edit: And also my other issue is that I hope the Pacers aim higher next year and don't sign West for the next 3 or 4 years to be the STARTER, if they were to sign him for 3mil a year to be the backup power forward I'm fine with that, but for him to be the starter for the next 2/3/4 years? No, if the Pacers want to compete for a championship they need to do better than West in my opinion.

The two bolded comments I can agree with but there is no PF that will be on the market that makes the Pacers compete for a championship in 2013. Josh Smith is the closest and I doubt the Pacers have the cash to pay for him. Milsap has my vote for the right price (he had it last year when the Pacers signed West for 2 years ending the same time West contract ended) but thats a slight upgrade that I wouldn't call a championship move.

The real problem is that the PF positon is not the issue. The Pacers still need a star that can take over the game and most Pacer fans know they won't get one via FA because they hope Paul George is that guy. Like it or not thats where we are at.

vnzla81
10-10-2012, 05:19 PM
daschysta;1508319]Who predicted that he would score 20/21? I think you misunderstood, some people brought up the fact that he was recently scoring that much in support of the argument that he'll likely score more than he did last season next year due to health. Noone has even predicted an All-Star appearance for West next season, let alone compared him currently, or in his prime to Lebron or Howard, misrepresenting the arguments of the other side by using gross exaggerations is no way to discuss anything...

Exaggerations are the ones that people use to tell us how much the Pacers need West and yes I have seen people still predicting what you predicted last year, that West is going to average 20 and 10.


I would argue his leadership has been huge, you need to do no more than listen to his teammates talk about how big it has been to understand where that idea comes from. You are the one that said straight up, that West is in the bottom part of starting PF's offensively due to raw ppg. Who has argued that he's a great defender? You keep changing your argument friend. It's valid to do what Seth did because Tyler is horrible on offense and on defense. West is maybe a bit below average defensively, good offensively (worlds better than Tyler on that end) and brings his fundamentals and intangibles. Tyler is an even worse defender than West, neither are quick enough laterally to be very good there, but at least West understands team defensive concepts and doesn't hurt everyone else, Tyler on the other hand is constantly out of position and fouls way more.


Yes his leadership is great but is overrated the same way people overrated the crap out of DJ's leadership and nope I'm not changing my argument, I used PPG's RPG's and his DEFENSE to compare him to other power forwards and he is on the bottom.

edit: I also forgot to mention that Tyler is a better defender than West, Tyler is better at moving his feet and staying in front of people so if Seth is going to crap on Tyler for his bad D(according to him) he needs to also crap on West.

pacer4ever
10-10-2012, 05:43 PM
We have early Bird rights we can resign him to pretty much whatever he likes we can sign him 175% of his previous salary(10 million). If we want him back and he wants to be back there wont be an issue. That is why I loved his deal at the time I just wish we would of done the same with DJ and gave him a 2 year deal so we had some type of bird rights he will likely be a rental but West will be back IMO depending on how the season goes.

daschysta
10-10-2012, 06:20 PM
The two bolded comments I can agree with but there is no PF that will be on the market that makes the Pacers compete for a championship in 2013. Josh Smith is the closest and I doubt the Pacers have the cash to pay for him. Milsap has my vote for the right price (he had it last year when the Pacers signed West for 2 years ending the same time West contract ended) but thats a slight upgrade that I wouldn't call a championship move.

The real problem is that the PF positon is not the issue. The Pacers still need a star that can take over the game and most Pacer fans know they won't get one via FA because they hope Paul George is that guy. Like it or not thats where we are at.

Not sure we have to neccesarily have a "take over" star meaning someone who is going to be scoring just garrish numbers. We do need Paul to take a big step forward consistent with his potential and for Roy to take one more step forward similar to the one he took last season. If Paul turns into a guy who can put up 18-20 points a night (doesn't have to actually do it, since the team is so balanced, but he needs to be capable of it) and Roy gets to where he can play 32-33 mpg instead of 29-30 and can post 15-16 ppg 10-11 rpg, and they do it while West and Danny are still playing at a high level then we'll be in good shape to play against any team in the league.

I think that George Hill has some potential as a "closing" type player too, he can slash and put the ball on the floor better than any of our other starters. Granger actually consistently posts some of the highest 4th quarter numbers in the league too, and West isn't bad at closing either, since he can put the ball on the floor better than most power forwards and is so reliable with the mid ranged J.

We just need to have an offense that knows where it wants to go, and knows what to do if that first option is cut off. That is our "closing problem" so much as it actually exists. Too often I got the feeling that we would be dead set on doing one thing, but if the other team anticipated it and cut off the option we just went into a broken offense. It happened at the end of lots of games, and it definitely happened against Miami quite a bit, remember, games 1 and 4 were really close even in the closing minutes, I think we were within 2 with 5 minutes in game 1 and within 5 with 2 minutes in game 4. However, at the end of games Miami would either double team Hibbert or West or aggressively front, and we didn't know what to do in response. Hopefully Frank has been thinking about it long and hard all offseason long and has drawn up some plays that are more varied, and contain contingencies in case the first option is cut off, and he does a better job explaining the contingencies to the players. The offense needs more nuance, especially late in games and doubly so late in games in the playoffs.

If we do that we don't have to have one huge offensive star, 5 players capable of 15+ every night would be more than enough. Hopefully Granger plays like he did post ASB all year long next year, because that Granger could potentially be a great closer for us himself, even last season Granger was extremely clutch, and scored the 6th most pp48 minutes of "crunch time" averaging 38.4 (crunch time defined as portions of 4th quarters or overtimes with less than 5 minutes to go, with neither team up by more than 5 points) better than every one else in the NBA other than Kyrie Irving, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul and Russel Westbrook, not bad company to be in if you're looking for a clutch scorer. Additionally he shot .475/.400/.920. Compare that to his per 48 minute per game numbers for the year, which were 27 ppg on .416/.381/.873, meaning that he not just marginally, but substantially upped his production late in close games when we needed him most, scoring 11.4 more ppg than his average per48 ppg total, shot 47.5 % vs. 41.6% from the field, 40% vs. 38.1% from 3 and 92% vs. 87.3% from the line.

Now Granger didn't come through vs. Miami, but i'm interested in when he got hurt, because to me, it seemed like after that Philly game just before the season ended, where he had to get leave after tweaking something he was never the same, which stuck out, since up until that point post ASB he had been playing arguably the best ball of his career and was looking like a real first option. I wonder, because he played very well vs. Chicago the year before in the playoffs, and they were an even better defensive team than last year's Miami Heat. If he was hurt during the series I guess I can't blame him much, but some of the games were close enough that it could have made a difference. I really hope that the injection of platelet rich plasma in his knee puts some spring in his step, because last year, just like all seasons since his breakout year, Danny's performance correlated with the Pacers winning or losing more than any other single player except perhaps Hibbert.

In Pacer Wins

20.5 ppg
5.1 rpg
2 apg
.8 bpg
1 spg

33.1 mpg

.436/.439/.880

In Pacer Losses

15.2 ppg
4.6 rpg
1.4 apg
.4 bpg
.9 spg

33.5 mpg

.372/.270/.854

Danny is still our bellwether, when he plays well it tends to result in wins, when he doesn't the Pacers lose the vast majority of the time, the sharp difference between each scenario suggests great variance in the dispersal of outcomes, in other words a strong positive correlation between Danny's statistical output and the team winning or losing.

Our fate lies with Granger being more consistent offensively as much as anything else. Results suggest he can be a very nice closer if the team can run their offense late effectively and keep it close enough for Granger to pull us through in the clutch.

daschysta
10-10-2012, 06:54 PM
Exaggerations are the ones that people use to tell us how much the Pacers need West and yes I have seen people still predicting what you predicted last year, that West is going to average 20 and 10.



Yes his leadership is great but is overrated the same way people overrated the crap out of DJ's leadership and nope I'm not changing my argument, I used PPG's RPG's and his DEFENSE to compare him to other power forwards and he is on the bottom.

edit: I also forgot to mention that Tyler is a better defender than West, Tyler is better at moving his feet and staying in front of people so if Seth is going to crap on Tyler for his bad D(according to him) he needs to also crap on West.



Find a single post that actually predicted that West would be 20-10 ON THIS TEAM last season coming off of an ACL injury as severe as the one he was coming off of. I doubt you find more than maybe one radical outlyer. Most were arguing that West has proven to be capable of big numbers, but realized, given the make up of this team, he was unlikely to post them, and that isn't even taking the ACL injury into consideration.

Now, and notice the disclaimer IF reports are accurate that physically, he is back to 100 percent of where he was before he got injured, then there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't be capable of numbers roughly on par with what he was putting up in NO at the age of 29 or 30 just because he's 32 now. West never really relied on athleticism at all, and his skills don't seem to have declined so I don't see why on some other team he wouldn't be able to put up 17-19 ppg 7-8 rpg in his traditional minutes.

I mean, even in April of last season, as he was finally starting to feel like his old self according to him, he put up 15.2 ppg 6.1 rpg 1.9 apg .7 bpg .9 spg in 28.9 mpg on 54.2 percent from the field, translate those numbers to per36, which he's proven he can play multiple times in his career and he was putting up
18.9 ppg 7.6 rpg 2.4 apg and around a block and a steal Which LO AND BEHOLD, are almost exactly what he was putting up in New Orleans with comparable minutes.

If you want a bigger sample size take post ASB as a whole, which includes games from before he admitted to finally feeling back to himself, but whatever.

Over the final 33 games per 36 he averaged

16.36 ppg
7.93 rpg
2.6 apg
and around 1 block and 1 steal

51 percent from the field

I don't see why the argument that on a team that leaned on him more, if reports are true that he's physically back to as good or better than where he was his final season in NO, he could put up comparable numbers to then. It isn't like his skills have declined, or he's lost much athleticism since then, which his game never relied on anyhow.

wintermute
10-11-2012, 02:31 AM
We have early Bird rights we can resign him to pretty much whatever he likes we can sign him 175% of his previous salary(10 million). If we want him back and he wants to be back there wont be an issue. That is why I loved his deal at the time I just wish we would of done the same with DJ and gave him a 2 year deal so we had some type of bird rights he will likely be a rental but West will be back IMO depending on how the season goes.

Ah, good catch on West's status as an Early Bird FA. I thought he only qualified for non-Bird. But non-Bird does allow for 120% of previous salary, which IMO should have been more than enough anyway.

On DJ, non-Bird applies, so we can re-sign him to up to 120% of $3.5m ($4.2m), or simply use the non-taxpayer MLE ($5m) on him. It's not a lot, but then do we really want to pay more for a backup PG? Depends I guess on whether you see him as a future starter.

OR, we could renounce the rights to both players, and re-enter the FA market with $8-9m in cap space as some posters here want. This seems unlikely to me, but who knows.

Mourning
10-11-2012, 08:28 AM
Well you are not going to get a lot with 8-9mln and I'm rather fond of West, so IF this is the room we have it's a total no-brainer to me.

I agree with Pacers4ever that it really is a shame that proposed trade to Charlotte didn't come through. There was a second year for DJ in that deal. I would have liked it also if we would have offered a second year to him when we tried to sign him as a FA, but I think it's likely he turned it down himself and they apparantly really wanted him so here we are. I hope it doesn't completely bites us in the ***, but we'll see.

BRushWithDeath
10-11-2012, 09:02 AM
I also forgot to mention that Tyler is a better defender than West, Tyler is better at moving his feet and staying in front of people so if Seth is going to crap on Tyler for his bad D(according to him) he needs to also crap on West.

If it was a one-on-one game, Tyler would probably be a slightly better defender than West. Unfortunately for Tebrough, both offensively and defensively, there are 9 other guys on floor with him.

As it is, he's a drastically worse offensive player and a moderately worse defensive player West.

Pacerized
10-11-2012, 09:08 AM
I'd rather keep West then have the cap space if DW is still in charge. We'd end up overpaying 2 role players 4-5 mil for 4 year contracts. If Bird really does return I'd have to see who's available in free agency but I'd still lean toward keeping West. I think the market is going to be tighter for free agents next summer with the new LT rules kicking in and West will have to take a pay cut, it's just a matter of how much.

vnzla81
10-11-2012, 10:48 AM
If it was a one-on-one game, Tyler would probably be a slightly better defender than West. Unfortunately for Tebrough, both offensively and defensively, there are 9 other guys on floor with him.

As it is, he's a drastically worse offensive player and a moderately worse defensive player West.

Of course you would say that.

BRushWithDeath
10-11-2012, 10:59 AM
Of course you would say that.

I would also say that the sun generally rises in the East and water is typically wet. But I didn't want to overload one post with so many obvious things.

Trader Joe
10-11-2012, 11:01 AM
Of course you would say that.

Some could say the exact same thing to you about David West, and then you would flip out.

beast23
10-11-2012, 12:48 PM
Of course you would say that.

Almost everyone would say that. I use the word almost because, at this time, I only know of one individual who would not.

vnzla81
10-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Some could say the exact same thing to you about David West, and then you would flip out.

I don't hate Dwest and I don't have a nickname for West to show how much "I hate him", BWD is known for hating Tyler so of course anybody(including Mcbob) is better than Tyler at anything.

I remember people saying the same thing last year and they got shut down game after game, pacers4ever was one that was laughing at this theory in the beginning of the year and at the end of the year he didn't know what to say about it anymore(I expect him the deny it again).

By the way don't go all crazy in thinking that I'm saying that Tyler is such a great defender all I'm saying is that he is a bit better than West, both are average defenders.

vnzla81
10-11-2012, 01:02 PM
Almost everyone would say that. I use the word almost because, at this time, I only know of one individual who would not.

Ask me if I care :unimpress: I remember the time I was DC's hater and I got similar comments as this one, can you remind me who was right again? ...........

Trader Joe
10-11-2012, 01:24 PM
Ask me if I care :unimpress: I remember the time I was DC's hater and I got similar comments as this one, can you remind me who was right again? ...........


I've been wondering when you would bring this up. Because you were always knocking down DC and pumping up Augustin, but now that Augustin is here and DC is gone, I've noticed you've gone back to saying that you don't think Augustin is much of an improvement if at all over DC

vnzla81
10-11-2012, 01:34 PM
I've been wondering when you would bring this up. Because you were always knocking down DC and pumping up Augustin, but now that Augustin is here and DC is gone, I've noticed you've gone back to saying that you don't think Augustin is much of an improvement if at all over DC

There is not doubt that Augustin is better, better passer and better "floor general", I just don't think that as backup his impact is going to be that great, 15mpg from him or DC is not that different to me, when I was pumping up Augustin I was talking about him replacing DC as the starter not as the backup.

billbradley
10-11-2012, 01:47 PM
There is not doubt that Augustin is better, better passer and better "floor general", I just don't think that as backup his impact is going to be that great, 15mpg from him or DC is not that different to me, when I was pumping up Augustin I was talking about him replacing DC as the starter not as the backup.

Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. DC was playing closer to 20 minutes a game as a backup. How can you say that a point guard can't have an impact playing 20 MPG?

vnzla81
10-11-2012, 02:04 PM
Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. DC was playing closer to 20 minutes a game as a backup. How can you say that a point guard can't have an impact playing 20 MPG?

Read it again.


I just don't think that as backup his impact is going to be that great,

I didn't say that "he can't have an impact", I said that "as a backup I don't think his impact is going to be that great" big difference.

Hill got pay this season I expect his minutes to go up, I also expect him to finish games, last season Frank was playing whoever was playing well, this season I expect it to be different, Hill has the long term contract and DJ is a rental.

billbradley
10-11-2012, 02:11 PM
Read it again. I didn't say that "he can't have an impact", I said that "as a backup I don't think his impact is going to be that great" big difference.

I read it, it just doesn't make sense to say "it's not that different" to have a backup that is better than who your starter was most of the year. The point is, 20 minutes is a long time to claim that who plays is "not that different."


Hill got pay this season I expect his minutes to go up, I also expect him to finish games, last season Frank was playing whoever was playing well, this season I expect it to be different, Hill has the long term contract and DJ is a rental.

Vogel will play the best player for the team and we could also see both Hill and Augustine close games as well.

xBulletproof
10-11-2012, 06:01 PM
I used PPG's RPG's and his DEFENSE to compare him to other power forwards and he is on the bottom.

Holy crap, you're STILL trying to say 33 out of 195 is "the bottom"? Then maybe you should use minutes per game to decide where West should be on those lists.

Here's a hint, he's even more bottomer in minutes per game than he is in points, or rebounds.

When someone is on a list higher in PPG, and RPG than he is in MPG with the same list of people, I'd say he's probably producing fairly well. Just me, of course.

vnzla81
10-11-2012, 06:27 PM
Holy crap, you're STILL trying to say 33 out of 195 is "the bottom"? Then maybe you should use minutes per game to decide where West should be on those lists.

Here's a hint, he's even more bottomer in minutes per game than he is in points, or rebounds.

When someone is on a list higher in PPG, and RPG than he is in MPG with the same list of people, I'd say he's probably producing fairly well. Just me, of course.

I see that you don't understand, I mean bottom of the starting power forwards in the league not the bottom of every power forward in the league, even the list I posted proves this, I said he is bottom 7 in starting power forwards.

vnzla81
10-11-2012, 06:38 PM
I read it, it just doesn't make sense to say "it's not that different" to have a backup that is better than who your starter was most of the year. The point is, 20 minutes is a long time to claim that who plays is "not that different."



Vogel will play the best player for the team and we could also see both Hill and Augustine close games as well.

I said that I don't think he is that big of an upgrade, that means that I think he is an upgrade but I don't think the difference is going to win or lose the Pacers games, for example I expect DJ to average probably 2 or 3 more points per game and few more assists but again I don't expect that to win the Pacers any games.

My comments also prove what I always said, that I never thought DC was garbage and I was never a DC hater by the way.

billbradley
10-11-2012, 07:06 PM
I said that I don't think he is that big of an upgrade, that means that I think he is an upgrade but I don't think the difference is going to win or lose the Pacers games, for example I expect DJ to average probably 2 or 3 more points per game and few more assists but again I don't expect that to win the Pacers any games.

My comments also prove what I always said, that I never thought DC was garbage and I was never a DC hater by the way.

It still doesn't make sense to say switching the same talents for 28 minutes will have an impact, but the same switch for 18 minutes "is not that different."

Freddie fan
10-12-2012, 12:07 AM
I would argue his leadership has been huge, you need to do no more than listen to his teammates talk about how big it has been to understand where that idea comes from.

Oftentimes, the idea of leadership seems possibly overstated because it is intangible and hard to evaluate. But I would argue that in West's case, in judging by listening to his teammates and coaches, and watching games, his leadership was very evident on the court in areas such as:


Valuing possessions and taking better shots (having fewer of the wild, bad shots of recent seasons); running the offense and passing the ball, not standing around too much and chucking up a long, contested shot.
Having poise and confidence to close out games at the end and not fall apart as we saw so often in previous seasons, also making big shots in the final seconds of games;
Not getting too high or losing focus after a big win and then losing the next game with a sub-par effort against a lesser opponent as we saw so often in previous seasons - developing more consistency in effort from game to game.


These are critical areas of improvement where I believe West had a big influence (and maybe others can think of more) that made a major difference in the team's record, but you won't find them looking at scoring and rebounding averages.

Mourning
10-12-2012, 06:26 AM
Absolutely agree with you there, Freddie.

Maybe the most notable moment in that regard was seconds after we won Game 2 vs the Miami HEAT and he ushered everybody quickly off the court and told everyone not to get too high after just one win.

vnzla81
10-12-2012, 08:53 AM
It still doesn't make sense to say switching the same talents for 28 minutes will have an impact, but the same switch for 18 minutes "is not that different."

Bench players are different, they don't have the same freedom and stop repeating that I'm saying "is not that different", I said "is not that BIG of a difference", it's like playing Roy for 18minutes instead of 28min, do you think his impact in the game is the same? No!.

Augustin as an starter could average 14 and 7 in 30+ minutes, I expect him to average like 8/9ppg and 4apg while playing less than 20minutes, in other words "NO THE SAME IMPACT IN THE GAME".

billbradley
10-12-2012, 09:11 AM
Bench players are different, they don't have the same freedom and stop repeating that I'm saying "is not that different", I said "is not that BIG of a difference",

No, you said exactly what I quoted you as saying and that is why you don't make sense...


There is not doubt that Augustin is better, better passer and better "floor general", I just don't think that as backup his impact is going to be that great, 15mpg from him or DC is not that different to me, when I was pumping up Augustin I was talking about him replacing DC as the starter not as the backup.


Augustin as an starter could average 14 and 7 in 30+ minutes, I expect him to average like 8/9ppg and 4apg while playing less than 20minutes, in other words "NO THE SAME IMPACT IN THE GAME".

The point is, upgrading your backup PG when you have a starting combo at PG will make a difference.

BillS
10-12-2012, 10:05 AM
... I don't think the difference is going to win or lose the Pacers games, for example I expect DJ to average probably 2 or 3 more points per game and few more assists but again I don't expect that to win the Pacers any games.

If we take those assists as being scores the Pacers would not have had, we're talking a differential of 8-9 points total (if "a few" assists is 3). Unless you are thinking that the assisted baskets will replace baskets by those members of the bench who create their own shots (that would be who?), that's enough to put us into a win column on a number of games compared to DC.

Now, how many of those points will be offset by defensive flaws, but I submit that DC's inability to get through a screen was nearly as egregious as any flaws DJ might have. After watching DJ tonight I might change my mind, but at this point that's where I am in this debate.