PDA

View Full Version : IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level



BillS
10-05-2012, 10:02 AM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20121004/SPORTS04/210050319/Pacers-take-smash-mouth-basketball-another-level


Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

by Mike Wells



The Indiana Pacers have taken smash-mouth basketball to another level, with assistant video coordinator Jhared Simpson wearing football shoulder pads in practice during a screening drill.

Assistant coach Jim Boylen pitched the idea to coach Frank Vogel. Boylen got the drill from Michigan State coach Tom Izzo, whose teams have a blue collar reputation. Boylen also used it when he coached at the University of Utah.

"It's a reference point type drill," Boylen said. "You want to make the pad click. It gave our guys the freedom to smack somebody without anybody getting hurt. It also gave them a good feel for what a solid screen feels like."

The objective of the drill was to try to help the Pacers set better screens. They have struggled in that area over the years.

"That was the idea," Vogel said. "Maybe we'll become a better screening team. One of the differences between the (Miami) Heat and our team during the playoff series last year was that I thought they were a better screening team."
Hill inducted into Hall of Fame

Pacers guard George Hill was inducted into the Indianapolis Public Schools Hall of Fame on Thursday. Hill, who starred at Broad Ripple High School, routinely visits IPS schools to encourage kids to excel academically and reach for their dreams.
Showing some fatigue

After back-to-back days of two-a-day practices, the Pacers only worked out once Thursday. Vogel said he noticed his players tiring.

"Guys got a little worn down toward the end of practice. Most of practice was pretty sharp. Guys were playing through it, playing with speed, playing with athleticism, but they tired down," he said.

The Pacers are treating today like a game day. They will have a shootaround this morning, then return for a scrimmage tonight with two 12-minute halves.
A Hall of Famer in the building

Mel Daniels, who was inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame last month, is attending practices as a guest of Pacers President Donnie Walsh.

Daniels spent nearly 30 years in the organization as a player or member of the basketball staff before he was fired as director of player personnel in October 2009.

Walsh, who left the Pacers for the New York Knicks in 2008 before returning last June, and Daniels have a close relationship. Daniels worked for the Knicks when Walsh was president of the teams.

Screens? We're going to finally set good, hard, effective screens?

:woot::dance::woohoo:

pacergod2
10-05-2012, 10:09 AM
Tyler should have excelled at that drill. This is the third time in a week I have mentioned Tyler's screening. If he learns how to set a screen the way it is meant to be set, then his effectiveness will go up ten fold offensively.

Tom White
10-05-2012, 10:38 AM
It was good to read they are going to work on their screening, but the part of the article I liked best was apparently any wounds between Mel Daniels and the Pacers are being healed.

BRushWithDeath
10-05-2012, 10:40 AM
I really wish all that "smash mouth" crap would die a quick and painless death.

LetsTalkPacers84
10-05-2012, 10:46 AM
Tyler should have excelled at that drill. This is the third time in a week I have mentioned Tyler's screening. If he learns how to set a screen the way it is meant to be set, then his effectiveness will go up ten fold offensively.

Assuming Tyler didn't just spear tackle the guy wearing the pads. :laugh:

LetsTalkPacers84
10-05-2012, 10:46 AM
I really wish all that "smash mouth" crap would die a quick and painless death.

I like it

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 11:07 AM
And here we go with the "smash mouth" crap again :rolleyes:

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 11:14 AM
I really wish all that "smash mouth" crap would die a quick and painless death.

The most annoying part of the "smash mouth" crap is that fans buy into it so anytime there is a rumor about a player their first request is for that player is to be "smashmouth".

Pacers4Life
10-05-2012, 02:05 PM
I really wish all that "smash mouth" crap would die a quick and painless death.

The most annoying part of the "smash mouth" crap is that fans buy into it so anytime there is a rumor about a player their first request is for that player is to be "smashmouth".

Please refrain from name calling. who cares? i like the thought of being a hard-nosed, blue collar, smashmouth basketball team. even if it is all fake (i dont think it is) and just talk. season starts in 24 days? try to keep your panties in a bunch until then.

Eddie Gill
10-05-2012, 02:07 PM
The most annoying part of the "smash mouth" crap is that fans buy into it so anytime there is a rumor about a player their first request is for that player is to be "smashmouth".

So is your problem with fans buying into any sort of team identity/philosophy and expecting acquisitions to fit that philosophy or is it specifically "smashmouth" that you have a problem with?

Because to me, it only seems logical for fans to want the team to acquire players who fit well with the larger philosophy of the team (whether it be smashmouth or run n' gun).

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 02:50 PM
So is your problem with fans buying into any sort of team identity/philosophy and expecting acquisitions to fit that philosophy or is it specifically "smashmouth" that you have a problem with?

Because to me, it only seems logical for fans to want the team to acquire players who fit well with the larger philosophy of the team (whether it be smashmouth or run n' gun).

The "smashmouth" philosophy is a myth, planning and drafting around this fake philosophy is not smart.

Peck
10-05-2012, 02:55 PM
The "smashmouth" philosophy is a myth, planning and drafting around this fake philosophy is not smart.

Please explain.

ilive4sports
10-05-2012, 03:01 PM
You will really hate on anything wont you Vnzla?

CableKC
10-05-2012, 03:12 PM
You will really hate on anything wont you Vnzla?
Peck is just asking him to explain his comments on why vnzla81 doesn't think that the Team isn't "smashmouth". Nothing wrong there. :shrug:

BillS
10-05-2012, 03:12 PM
The "smashmouth" philosophy is a myth, planning and drafting around this fake philosophy is not smart.

Seems to me actually working in practice on setting hard picks is putting their money where their mouths are.

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 03:18 PM
Please explain.

When I think about "smashmouth" I think about the Knicks of the 90's, the Detroit Pistons of the 90's, the Pacers don't have a Rodman, they don't have a Mason, the toughest guy they have on paper and because he is a boxer off the court for the Pacers is David West, how many times have you see him pulling a Rodman?

Then the next toughest person and the originator of "smashmouth" in Tyler can't even play normal basketball because he has been told that "smashmouth" is great and he should play "smashmouth" at all times, at least that's what I hear from Vogel.

By a "myth" I mean that with this Pacers personal I don't really see anybody that intimidates anybody, making the "smashmouth" thing just talk, you can talk about "smashmouth" and playing "tough" all you want but when you don't have the personal all that becomes air.

Lets also not forget that with this new NBA playing "smashmouth" could get players suspended or ejected making the "smashmouth" philosophy a thing of the pass and a myth.

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 03:26 PM
By the way I understand what Vogel was doing with the "smashmouth" thing when he took over, but now two years later and is still trying to bring this "philosophy"? I think they should try something else.

billbradley
10-05-2012, 03:44 PM
When I think about "smashmouth" I think about the Knicks of the 90's, the Detroit Pistons of the 90's, the Pacers don't have a Rodman, they don't have a Mason, the toughest guy they have on paper and because he is a boxer off the court for the Pacers is David West, how many times have you see him pulling a Rodman?

Then the next toughest person and the originator of "smashmouth" in Tyler can't even play normal basketball because he has been told that "smashmouth" is great and he should play "smashmouth" at all times, at least that's what I hear from Vogel.

By a "myth" I mean that with this Pacers personal I don't really see anybody that intimidates anybody, making the "smashmouth" thing just talk, you can talk about "smashmouth" and playing "tough" all you want but when you don't have the personal all that becomes air.

Lets also not forget that with this new NBA playing "smashmouth" could get players suspended or ejected making the "smashmouth" philosophy a thing of the pass and a myth.

Maybe we're trying to be a modern version "smashmoth" team. Would you disagree that our physicality has been getting under teams skin for a few years?

Sollozzo
10-05-2012, 03:47 PM
Maybe we're trying to be a modern version "smashmoth" team. Would you disagree that our physicality has been getting under teams skin for a few years?

Yeah, I think we have. I remember how irritated Rose got at Foster during the Bulls series in 2011. I wish Foster could have stayed healthy, if for nothing else than to deliver some hard hits in a playoff series.

Mad-Mad-Mario
10-05-2012, 03:50 PM
Yeah smashmouth has to be redefined. What we consider smashmouth is pretty tame compared to some of the stuff you used to see in the 90s.

billbradley
10-05-2012, 04:00 PM
Yeah smashmouth has to be redefined. What we consider smashmouth is pretty tame compared to some of the stuff you used to see in the 90s.

It's all relative, the overall NBA isn't as tough, just as the Pacers aren't as "smashmout" as the toughest teams in the 90s. In today's NBA we are a pretty hard nosed team.

Pacers24Colts12
10-05-2012, 04:13 PM
I agree, smashmouth should go away. I think David West should become a stretch 4 who trails back and jacks up three pointers. Hell, we saw how McRoberts developed a 3 point shot, maybe Plumlee can do the same?!?

cdash
10-05-2012, 04:17 PM
I honestly don't see the big deal with the term "smash mouth" or why people have a problem with it. It just seems like a really stupid thing to pick nits about. But that's just me.

Cousy47
10-05-2012, 04:20 PM
And that's what I understood Vogel to mean when he started the concept of "smashmouth" for the Pacers. Stay with it, give up on no rebound, loose ball or jump ball opportunity. I don' believe he had anky intention of becoming a group of goons or dirty players. Just non stop effort from everybody on the team. JMHO

Eddie Gill
10-05-2012, 04:54 PM
Yeah, I think we have. I remember how irritated Rose got at Foster during the Bulls series in 2011. I wish Foster could have stayed healthy, if for nothing else than to deliver some hard hits in a playoff series.

Kevin Love wasn't too fond of our version of smash mouth either. I also recall we got under Milwaukee's skin pretty good, too.

QuickRelease
10-05-2012, 05:14 PM
Then the next toughest person and the originator of "smashmouth" in Tyler can't even play normal basketball because he has been told that "smashmouth" is great and he should play "smashmouth" at all timesIs this really the reason that Tyler struggles? I would say that Tyler was likely headed for his current level, regardless of Vogel wanting to be smashmouth.

QuickRelease
10-05-2012, 05:17 PM
I don't mind smashmouth that leans toward genuine toughness, and not thuggishness (I use the dreaded 'T' word cautiously). You don't have to have a Mason or a Rodman to be a physical (note: not dirty) basketball team. And I think David West is plenty tough enough. I wouldn't cross him.

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 05:41 PM
Yeah, I think we have. I remember how irritated Rose got at Foster during the Bulls series in 2011. I wish Foster could have stayed healthy, if for nothing else than to deliver some hard hits in a playoff series.

Foster is another reason why I think the "smashmouth" thing should die, he is not here anymore.

cdash
10-05-2012, 05:45 PM
Foster is another reason why I think the "smashmouth" thing should die, he is not here anymore.

Pray tell, what identity do you think the team should adopt?

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Maybe we're trying to be a modern version "smashmoth" team. Would you disagree that our physicality has been getting under teams skin for a few years?

Maybe they are trying to be a modern version of "smashmouth" but the problem is that the Pacers don't have the personal to be "smashmouth" from the past or the present to begging with.

And yes I remember them getting under teams skins specially Miami and getting under Lebron's skin didn't work out that well either.

billbradley
10-05-2012, 06:04 PM
Maybe they are trying to be a modern version of "smashmouth" but the problem is that the Pacers don't have the personal to be "smashmouth" from the past or the present to begging with.

And yes I remember them getting under teams skins specially Miami and getting under Lebron's skin didn't work out that well either.

What current NBA players do the Pacers need to be considered one of the toughest teams? Our players don't back down from anyone. Just because a team is "smashmouth" that doesn't mean they will be the most talented teams, it just means they're a tough, gritty group of guys that don't flop, hustle and play hard with a lot of passion.

What players do not exemplify that currently on the roster, and who do we need to get in today's NBA so that we could be called "smashmouth" by your standards?

Eddie Gill
10-05-2012, 06:21 PM
And I think David West is plenty tough enough. I wouldn't cross him.

I'm gonna go on record as saying I wouldn't cross any professional athlete ever.

Nuntius
10-05-2012, 06:24 PM
Media-created storylines is one of the most boring things in the NBA...

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 07:23 PM
Pray tell, what identity do you think the team should adopt?

Why does a team needs to have some type of identity? what's Miami's identity? what's the Lakers identity?

QuickRelease
10-05-2012, 07:30 PM
I'm gonna go on record as saying I wouldn't cross any professional athlete ever.Yeah, and David West is near the top of that list.

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 07:31 PM
What current NBA players do the Pacers need to be considered one of the toughest teams? Our players don't back down from anyone. Just because a team is "smashmouth" that doesn't mean they will be the most talented teams, it just means they're a tough, gritty group of guys that don't flop, hustle and play hard with a lot of passion.

What players do not exemplify that currently on the roster, and who do we need to get in today's NBA so that we could be called "smashmouth" by your standards?

No many players in the current NBA are "smashmouth" no current teams in the NBA are "smashmouth", to me there is not need to declare that a team is "smashmouth", why not let their play do the talking instead of repeating non stop how "smashmouth" they are? That's the part that grinds my gears.

Sparhawk
10-05-2012, 07:35 PM
I also don't see anything smashmouth about this team.

I would settle for more screens and pick n rolls. Both West and Tyler should benefit for it on the offensive end.

It would also be great to learn how to better defend screens and pick n rolls, and just be fundamentally sound.

Ransom
10-05-2012, 07:40 PM
You guys are all going to slap your foreheads the second Vogel lifts that Larry O'Brien trophy and "All Star" is cued up on the PA. Followed by each Pacer doing a dance routine while the season credits roll.

cdash
10-05-2012, 07:51 PM
Why does a team needs to have some type of identity? what's Miami's identity? what's the Lakers identity?

They have star power, they don't need an identity. But, point taken. Just seems like a silly thing to dig your heels in about.

cdash
10-05-2012, 07:52 PM
No many players in the current NBA are "smashmouth" no current teams in the NBA are "smashmouth", to me there is not need to declare that a team is "smashmouth", why not let their play do the talking instead of repeating non stop how "smashmouth" they are? That's the part that grinds my gears.

Blame Vogel for it. He coined it. He's the first one to say it. He embraces it. The team seems to embrace it. Most fans seem to embrace it.

Hicks
10-05-2012, 07:55 PM
Didn't Vogel basically define smash mouth as playing from the inside out, being physical, and being resilient? Or at least something kind of like that right? If so, that's pretty much what they are, aren't they? In any case, does anyone seriously care so much about this that they feel they have to complain about it?

Peck
10-05-2012, 07:58 PM
Didn't Vogel basically define smash mouth as playing from the inside out, being physical, and being resilient? Or at least something kind of like that right? If so, that's pretty much what they are, aren't they? In any case, does anyone seriously care so much about this that they feel they have to complain about it?

You are correct that this is exactly how Vogel stated it.

As to complaining about it, well in all honesty there were people last year who were not happy with the phrase and not just the ones in this thread.

I like it myself but then I also understand why some people don't care for it. Especially if they don't define smashmouth basketball as the way Frank states it.

vnzla81
10-05-2012, 08:11 PM
Blame Vogel for it. He coined it. He's the first one to say it. He embraces it. The team seems to embrace it. Most fans seem to embrace it.

I know that Vogel is the one that brought it up and I understand that at the time he took over something needed to be done to bring some fans back, "smashmouth" was the right PR move at the time, I understand why he did it, what's grinding my gears is that now almost two years later he is still saying the same thing.

To me is similar to the guy that says he has game and doesn't let his game do the talk, Vogel keeps repeating that they are "smashmouth" but in reality they are not.

Hicks
10-05-2012, 08:30 PM
To me, the whole point is we all should base this on how Frank chose to define it. If Frank had defined it as something that the Pacers are not, or if he had never defined it at all or had merely been vague and non-commital, then I could completely understand complaining about it. But Frank made a point of explaining it, and it does seem to apply to this team, and he owns it, so I really don't see a reason for anyone to complain other than wanting the team to play differently.

Peck
10-05-2012, 08:35 PM
To me, the whole point is we all should base this on how Frank chose to define it. If Frank had defined it as something that the Pacers are not, or if he had never defined it at all or had merely been vague and non-commital, then I could completely understand complaining about it. But Frank made a point of explaining it, and it does seem to apply to this team, and he owns it, so I really don't see a reason for anyone to complain other than wanting the team to play differently.

As you said "to me", others don't view it that way. I agree with you btw but there were posters last year who had a problem with it as well and for a variety of reasons.

Also while nobody here has brought it up I do think Frank's use of the term as often as he does has contributed a little to the league wide perception that we are arrogant and cocky. I think the entire NBA is nuts about that myself but I do think some of it stems from Franks style of talking.

D-BONE
10-05-2012, 09:00 PM
Smashmouth, smashmoth, smashpotato, blah, blah, blah.

Don't matter what it's called if you win.

Tom White
10-05-2012, 09:06 PM
You are correct that this is exactly how Vogel stated it.

As to complaining about it, well in all honesty there were people last year who were not happy with the phrase and not just the ones in this thread.

I like it myself but then I also understand why some people don't care for it. Especially if they don't define smashmouth basketball as the way Frank states it.
Yeah, maybe the term "hard-nosed basketball" might fit better than "smashmouth". Smashmouth does have a bit of a thugish sound to it.

D-BONE
10-05-2012, 09:10 PM
But is smashmouth thuggish as a football description?

Peck
10-05-2012, 09:18 PM
But is smashmouth thuggish as a football description?

Well considering one is supposed to in theory be a non contact sport I could see where people might get that impression.

Ace E.Anderson
10-05-2012, 09:41 PM
I know that Vogel is the one that brought it up and I understand that at the time he took over something needed to be done to bring some fans back, "smashmouth" was the right PR move at the time, I understand why he did it, what's grinding my gears is that now almost two years later he is still saying the same thing.

To me is similar to the guy that says he has game and doesn't let his game do the talk, Vogel keeps repeating that they are "smashmouth" but in reality they are not.

You definition of smashmouth, isn't exactly everyone else's definition. Vogel simply wants the team to play harder, tougher, and more physically than other teams. More often than not, that was the case last season. There's nothing wrong with wanting this to be the identity of our team and preaching it to the team as well as the media.

Tom White
10-05-2012, 09:47 PM
Well considering one is supposed to in theory be a non contact sport I could see where people might get that impression.

Well, to be truthful, one is a contact sport, the other is a collision sport.

J7F
10-05-2012, 10:06 PM
No many players in the current NBA are "smashmouth" no current teams in the NBA are "smashmouth", to me there is not need to declare that a team is "smashmouth", why not let their play do the talking instead of repeating non stop how "smashmouth" they are? That's the part that grinds my gears.

I love the grinds my gears reference...

But you do hear all coaches talking about their teams playing style... We are just the only ones claiming smashmouth...

And I think you are taking the wrong impression from the term smashmouth in general... Smashmouth is not literally "We're gonna smash your mouths!"... Ex. Rodman

It's just means we're gonna be physical, score inside (needs improvement), Rebound, play tough D, and above all else... HUSTLE!.. Ex. Roy

Eddie Gill
10-05-2012, 10:13 PM
As you said "to me", others don't view it that way. I agree with you btw but there were posters last year who had a problem with it as well and for a variety of reasons.

Also while nobody here has brought it up I do think Frank's use of the term as often as he does has contributed a little to the league wide perception that we are arrogant and cocky. I think the entire NBA is nuts about that myself but I do think some of it stems from Franks style of talking.

I could care less what the rest of the league thinks of us, as long as our reputation doesn't change the way refs call our games. Unless that becomes an issue, I will unabashedly embrace smash mouth.

D-BONE
10-05-2012, 10:19 PM
Well considering one is supposed to in theory be a non contact sport I could see where people might get that impression.

So thuggish doesn't apply in football but yes in basketball as associated to smashmouth? I have not problems with any thuggish implication for Pacers. More concerned about whether they can back up the image created. I'm not sure they have so far.

Hicks
10-05-2012, 10:40 PM
As you said "to me", others don't view it that way.

In this case, I think it's an illogical position to take. (To choose a definition other than the one used by the guy who brought it up in the first place)

Judge something as it is presented, defined and/or intended.

To arbitrarily redefine the term in this context is pointless because then you're not talking about reality anymore.

beast23
10-05-2012, 11:07 PM
Do you remember playing pick-up ball as a kid? Sometimes you played against dirty players and just wanted to understandably pop them in the mouth. But other times, you played against guys that were just plain tough. They were masters of gamesmanship. They bellied up to you and made you work for everything. They knew when to give you that little nudge before going up for the rebound or just before that pass was coming to you into the post. You hated playing against them and probably felt like popping them too before the day was done. But not because they played dirty. They were just tough-minded tough-nosed physical players who, more often than not, could make you have to work much harder than you really wanted to work. In short, they could usually impose their will on you.

That is really what Vogel means by "smash mouth". That's a team that is physically on the edge, but within the rules, that is capable of imposing it's will on the opposition.

Smash mouth means nothing different today than it did 20 years ago. The only thing that is different are the rules of the game that happen to define it's limits.

Peck
10-05-2012, 11:09 PM
In this case, I think it's an illogical position to take. (To choose a definition other than the one used by the guy who brought it up in the first place)

Judge something as it is presented, defined and/or intended.
To arbitrarily redefine the term in this context is pointless because then you're not talking about reality anymore.

That's only if you’re willing to allow someone else to define an action/object/etc.

Just because I start a conversation calling a peach an apple doesn't mean that everyone is obligated to follow my definition. Yes this is one of those cases of being absurd to demonstrate absurdity that you don't like but play along.

Frank Vogel, as much as I love him, does not get to be the final arbiter of the definition of Smash mouth basketball. That is up to anyone’s personal interpretation.

Had Frank just said "we're going to play inside out, look to take good shots and play hard every play" then your point would be more valid, but he chose to give it a name. It just so happens that it is a name that has been used in the past in several different ways and in several different sports.

BTW I want to say again, I love the phrase smash mouth basketball & I have zero problem with them using it as long as they are actually doing it. By Vnzla's standard, admittedly they are not, but this is the newer kinder gentler NBA so I think by today's standards they probably are.

Hicks
10-05-2012, 11:17 PM
So then just say he's misusing the phrase.

Hicks
10-05-2012, 11:20 PM
And even in this case, just say, "He's misusing the phrase, but going by his own wacky definition he's right and that's what they're doing."

Peck
10-05-2012, 11:43 PM
So then just say he's misusing the phrase.

No offense but, why?

Why can't people be upset about it if they want to be?

Once again making sure we are clear here, I am NOT upset with his use of the phrase or his definition. I'm totally with you & him on this.

But if people want to be upset about it, they can be.

However to be fair, you also would be entitled to being upset about them being upset (or something like that)

Hicks
10-05-2012, 11:46 PM
What is it about me that suddenly makes you such an active and argumentative poster all of a sudden? ***** Christ! :laugh:

pizza guy
10-05-2012, 11:50 PM
Do you remember playing pick-up ball as a kid? Sometimes you played against dirty players and just wanted to understandably pop them in the mouth. But other times, you played against guys that were just plain tough. They were masters of gamesmanship. They bellied up to you and made you work for everything. They knew when to give you that little nudge before going up for the rebound or just before that pass was coming to you into the post. You hated playing against them and probably felt like popping them too before the day was done. But not because they played dirty. They were just tough-minded tough-nosed physical players who, more often than not, could make you have to work much harder than you really wanted to work. In short, they could usually impose their will on you.

That is really what Vogel means by "smash mouth". That's a team that is physically on the edge, but within the rules, that is capable of imposing it's will on the opposition.

Smash mouth means nothing different today than it did 20 years ago. The only thing that is different are the rules of the game that happen to define it's limits.

This is what I think Vogel means and it's how I take it. I don't mind the use of the phrase or trying to coach the team to be that way. I think, in general, that's how we play. We're going to make the other team work for it, and we've got the muscle to make it work.

That said, the term is definitely teetering on being overused. It's becoming empty rhetoric, and that's what getting annoying.

More to the point of the OP -- football pads during practice to work on setting good, hard screens as a direct result of something Coach V noted during the playoffs as a weakness? Yes, please. This is a great bit of coaching, and it's very encouraging to me. We may be returning the same starting five, but it doesn't mean we're content with how we played.

Peck
10-05-2012, 11:52 PM
What is it about me that suddenly makes you such an active and argumentative poster all of a sudden? ***** Christ! :laugh:

I support Ned Stark dammit!!!!

:swordfigh

vnzla81
10-06-2012, 12:06 AM
That said, the term is definitely teetering on being overused. It's becoming empty rhetoric, and that's what getting annoying.

This.

cdash
10-06-2012, 12:52 AM
This thread has done more to make the phrase annoying than anything Frank Vogel, the media, other teams, other players, or anything else has said or done.

graphic-er
10-06-2012, 01:12 AM
Tyler should have excelled at that drill. This is the third time in a week I have mentioned Tyler's screening. If he learns how to set a screen the way it is meant to be set, then his effectiveness will go up ten fold offensively.

Why would somebody who generally really sucks at setting a screen excel in doing so just because he has some pads on? I bet they had to yell at Tyler to quit leaving the screen before the contact is made.

Foul on Smits
10-06-2012, 01:24 AM
When I think about "smashmouth" I think about the Knicks of the 90's, the Detroit Pistons of the 90's, the Pacers don't have a Rodman, they don't have a Mason, the toughest guy they have on paper and because he is a boxer off the court for the Pacers is David West, how many times have you see him pulling a Rodman?

Then the next toughest person and the originator of "smashmouth" in Tyler can't even play normal basketball because he has been told that "smashmouth" is great and he should play "smashmouth" at all times, at least that's what I hear from Vogel.

By a "myth" I mean that with this Pacers personal I don't really see anybody that intimidates anybody, making the "smashmouth" thing just talk, you can talk about "smashmouth" and playing "tough" all you want but when you don't have the personal all that becomes air.

Lets also not forget that with this new NBA playing "smashmouth" could get players suspended or ejected making the "smashmouth" philosophy a thing of the pass and a myth.

I have a completely different feeling on " smashmouth " i guess. I think Smashmouth is more then just a physical thing. I think it's a mentality too. You dont have to clobber someone to be smashmouth. Danny Granger getting in Lebrons face was smashmouth ( i'll explain why in another paragraph. I think its the only equalizer. I think this league has been soft for so many years now. The NBA is ready for a really rough and physical team that doesnt bow down to the superteam. I think the fans, not just Pacers fans, are waiting for a team to do this. The thing about these superteams are that they're so soft. Lebron, Wade, Bosh? Howard, Nash, Kobe ( Kobe is smashmouth ), Chandler, Melo, Amare? Come on.

When Danny Granger got up into Lebrons face, it wasnt just about intimidating. It was also about not accepting whats become acceptable. Which is, King James and crew running rough shot on everyone. It was about the lack of respect our team and city as a whole continues to get, especially with this basketball team, despite having a great team and a great year last season. It was about just letting the world know that we WILL matter, whether you like it or not. It was about " Yah, you are the heavy favorites to win the title. You are the best player in the NBA. We are the small town market who's suppose to get stomped. We are so insignificant to the most basketball aficionados and experts, that we were'nt even on national television, despite winning 42 of 62 games, but WE WILL MATTER. WE WILL HAVE YOUR RESPECT. "

Incase you havent notices, Lebron, Wade, Bosh...They are suppose to win the next few titles. In everyone's minds, we dont exisist in there world. We dont matter. Smashmouth isnt just about throwing shoulders. It's about making people give a damn when they step into our building. When they step on the same court. These teams know they have more talent. They know they're suppose to win. However, they wont know whether they'll be long for a season, or series after they step off the court with us. Because we're going to hustle for every ball, we're gunna bang. We wont back down. Thats smashmouth. It's not about throwing people around and hurting people. It's simply the only way, short of having 3 superstars, that people WILL RESPECT US. And its also the equalizer because we have really good talent. We may not have 3 superstars, but we have great players. This is one of the most talented teams in Pacers history to be quite honest. It might be scewed a bit, because when you hold this team to the 3 superstar teams, they dont measure on paper, but on the court, they will because they're going to play harder, tougher and they wont bow down to the norm. Which is, Lebron and Co. being penciled in for the next few titles.

And one last thing. You can play smashmouth and be talented team and draft good and run an excellent organization. And i have a firm belief as a life long Pacer fan, that Frank Vogel is going to take this team to an NBA Finals and eventually a title. I think he's 2 steps ahead of everyone else. It's just tough for some of us on here to realize this, because all we see now is these Superstar-laden teams.

I'm excited.

gummy
10-06-2012, 01:55 AM
This thread has done more to make the phrase annoying than anything Frank Vogel, the media, other teams, other players, or anything else has said or done.

Amen. ;)

King Tuts Tomb
10-06-2012, 02:03 AM
Forget Smash Mouth, just be happy we're not playing Limp Bizkit basketball.

Nuntius
10-06-2012, 07:45 AM
The thing about these superteams are that they're so soft. Lebron, Wade, Bosh? Howard, Nash, Kobe ( Kobe is smashmouth ), Chandler, Melo, Amare? Come on.



Nash is definitely smashmouth.

Nuntius
10-06-2012, 07:49 AM
When Danny Granger got up into Lebrons face, it wasnt just about intimidating. It was also about not accepting whats become acceptable. Which is, King James and crew running rough shot on everyone. It was about the lack of respect our team and city as a whole continues to get, especially with this basketball team, despite having a great team and a great year last season. It was about just letting the world know that we WILL matter, whether you like it or not. It was about " Yah, you are the heavy favorites to win the title. You are the best player in the NBA. We are the small town market who's suppose to get stomped. We are so insignificant to the most basketball aficionados and experts, that we were'nt even on national television, despite winning 42 of 62 games, but WE WILL MATTER. WE WILL HAVE YOUR RESPECT. "

Incase you havent notices, Lebron, Wade, Bosh...They are suppose to win the next few titles. In everyone's minds, we dont exisist in there world. We dont matter. Smashmouth isnt just about throwing shoulders. It's about making people give a damn when they step into our building. When they step on the same court. These teams know they have more talent. They know they're suppose to win. However, they wont know whether they'll be long for a season, or series after they step off the court with us. Because we're going to hustle for every ball, we're gunna bang. We wont back down. Thats smashmouth. It's not about throwing people around and hurting people. It's simply the only way, short of having 3 superstars, that people WILL RESPECT US. And its also the equalizer because we have really good talent. We may not have 3 superstars, but we have great players. This is one of the most talented teams in Pacers history to be quite honest. It might be scewed a bit, because when you hold this team to the 3 superstar teams, they dont measure on paper, but on the court, they will because they're going to play harder, tougher and they wont bow down to the norm. Which is, Lebron and Co. being penciled in for the next few titles.

And one last thing. You can play smashmouth and be talented team and draft good and run an excellent organization. And i have a firm belief as a life long Pacer fan, that Frank Vogel is going to take this team to an NBA Finals and eventually a title. I think he's 2 steps ahead of everyone else. It's just tough for some of us on here to realize this, because all we see now is these Superstar-laden teams.

I'm excited.

Amen :cheers::cheers::applaud::applaud::bowdown::bowdow n::buddies::buddies:

Tom White
10-06-2012, 09:51 AM
Nash is definitely smashmouth.

Wouldn't that be Nashmouth basketball?

vnzla81
10-06-2012, 09:52 AM
This thread has done more to make the phrase annoying than anything Frank Vogel, the media, other teams, other players, or anything else has said or done.

Now you know how some of us feel ;)

Since86
10-06-2012, 10:20 AM
It's just another bowl of cheerios to **** in.

Naptown_Seth
10-06-2012, 02:22 PM
Please explain.

Since I'm in agreement with VNZLA on this one I'll jump in.

Targeting "physical" players gets you Tyler, and it's just as flawed as trying to get a bunch of similar guys (Isiah's Quick), or shooters, lengthy teams, all quick guys, etc. It's the idea of falling in love with one aspect of the game. And in the case of physical play it's not really in the top 5 of skills that contribute to winning, and worse yet it's one of the easiest for the refs to remove from the game via calling tight fouls.

Everyone loves the idea of a tough team, and certainly you need a level of toughness. But simply tough as an identity doesn't cut it in basketball. Given the choice I'd rather have a team of pure shooters, and to emphasize that look at West vs Tyler. Tyler is certainly more "physical", often out of control, but West has pure post scoring skills mixed with enough toughness to stand tall.

Smashmouth implies an idea of focus on physical play reminiscent of the mid-90s Cavs that aped the Knicks style of hard fouling, slow down defense. It won a tiny bit but mostly it resulted in poor, very ugly basketball.


Setting a firm screen isn't "smashmouth", it's fundamental basketball. Having 5 specialists that each play their position very well without being a superstar is fundamental basketball. That's the Pacers true identity and what many people have in mind when they think of items like clean, hard screens held to completion. Get to a spot in time, establish a good position, hold your base, and keep your arms down. That's not smashmouth, it's just the right way to execute that aspect of basketball.


And the biggest irony of all of this is that most fans think of Tyler as the most smashmouth player on the team and he's guilty of the absolute worst picks and screens on the team. His entire PnPop style is to NOT ENGAGE with the defender in order to better come clear for the FGA look, leaving the ball handler in a tough double team much of the time.


You do need to be tough, and given players of similar skills you would prefer the tougher of the two. But you also want the quickest. You also want the one who holds his focus the best and who can maintain crisp intensity and attention to the DETAILS of the game. Setting a good screen, running crisply off of those screens, keeping in range of your man to avoid being caught in a spacing trick, these are the details that win games. That's NOT smashmouth, and a lot of physical guys don't really do these things well and consistently anyway.

They just turn to hard fouls when they struggle rather than chucking up bad shots or overdribbling.

Naptown_Seth
10-06-2012, 02:30 PM
Had Frank just said "we're going to play inside out, look to take good shots and play hard every play" then your point would be more valid, but he chose to give it a name.
So did Wooden. He called it "Fundamental" basketball IIRC. ;)

And I don't think guys like Wooden or Knight would tolerate stuff like Danny getting in Lebron's face. I mean as a fan I can get fired up and take that emotional ride with him, but at the same time if Danny just gave Lebron the Jordan, took the play to the other end of the court and just beat him, that would say "tough" a lot more than some barking.

Barking back is the ground floor of standing up for yourself. Ignoring the bark and then biting when it counts is the penthouse.

Naptown_Seth
10-06-2012, 02:35 PM
Why would somebody who generally really sucks at setting a screen excel in doing so just because he has some pads on? I bet they had to yell at Tyler to quit leaving the screen before the contact is made.

So remove the pads and nail his shoes to the floor instead. :D


And just to be clear, I love the drill because they have had some terrible offensive spacing issues which makes them underproductive on offense compared to their scoring talent. One reason I liked Josh is that he read shooting screen situations very well and set them cleanly for guys like Dunleavy.

imawhat
10-06-2012, 03:34 PM
All I've heard is that we plan on shooting more threes, so yes, we're taking smash mouth basketball to another level (a lower level).

Brad8888
10-06-2012, 04:19 PM
It's just another bowl of cheerios to **** in.

When the other ones are all full, what else are we supposed to do? :)

Brad8888
10-06-2012, 04:22 PM
All I've heard is that we plan on shooting more threes, so yes, we're taking smash mouth basketball to another level (a lower level).

I hope to **** that you forgot to green this post. Why would that be, unless our shooting has actually improved that much?

daschysta
10-06-2012, 04:30 PM
I hope to **** that you forgot to green this post. Why would that be, unless our shooting has actually improved that much?

Danny is a great 3 point shooter, and his best portions of last year coincided with him being hot from 3, Hill takes alot more 3's than DC, and Paul has supposedly worked on his shooting in the offseason. Gerald Green also shoots alot more 3's than Dahntay, and maybe about par with Leandro, and DJ takes more than DC. So we probably will see more 3's which isn't. in a bubble, a bad thing as long as they are good shots.

Major Cold
10-06-2012, 05:16 PM
We will hit more threes specifically because West and George (slashing more) will get more buckets in the paint. This will open up the lanes for spot up shots for Hill, Granger, and Green.

Dr. Awesome
10-06-2012, 10:51 PM
I'm not sure what any of ya'll are talking about....this is Smash Mouth:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_jWHffIx5E

imawhat
10-07-2012, 12:43 AM
I hope to **** that you forgot to green this post. Why would that be, unless our shooting has actually improved that much?

I think we ranked 6th in 3 pt % last season. We're a good 3 point shooting team (while somehow being one of the lower overall FG% teams in the league), so as long as we're still putting a lot of pressure on the defense, then I'm okay with it.

rm1369
10-07-2012, 07:23 AM
I like the general characteristics Vogel is referring to with the "Smashmouth" term: mental & physical toughness, inside / out play, dont back down, and a little swagger. I think those are important qualities for a starless team to have. However, in an NBA where stars are protected and get the benefit of the doubt, I think the term "Smashmouth" has a potential to hurt more than it does help. The team is developing a league wide perception nearing dirty IMO and I don't believe that is beneficial in the current NBA - especially considering they lack anyone (star) that will get the benefit of the doubt from refs. Keep the philosophy, but lose the rhetoric.

Kemo
10-07-2012, 08:18 AM
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001045632/Com01_answer_3_xlarge.gif
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001045632/complaining_answer_4_xlarge.jpeg


http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/haters-gonna-hate-7.jpg?w=500&amph=375

Sandman21
10-07-2012, 01:21 PM
The team is developing a league wide perception nearing dirty IMO and I don't believe that is beneficial in the current NBA - especially considering they lack anyone (star) that will get the benefit of the doubt from refs. Keep the philosophy, but lose the rhetoric.

Name one opposing player who was injured by our smashmouth play last year (and no, I wouldn't consider Horford to have been injured as a result of our smashmouth philosophy).

rm1369
10-07-2012, 03:07 PM
Name one opposing player who was injured by our smashmouth play last year (and no, I wouldn't consider Horford to have been injured as a result of our smashmouth philosophy).

Not sure what that has to do with it???? I didn't say they were dirty. I'm saying they are getting the perception largely do to the TALK. I'd actually have less an issue with that type play than I do with that type talk. Nobody is intimidated by the Pacers talk. IMO all you do is play in to opposing teams complaints to refs etc. In a league where you sometimes can't breathe on stars, I fail to see the advantage of the talk. Shutting up and putting opponents on their asses would be more effective.

Naptown_Seth
10-07-2012, 11:34 PM
To me the Vogel philosophy is to GRIND. Grind on offense with inside out play and solid screens. Lots of physical interaction that requires work, strength and stamina. Ditto on defense. In fact in the Training Camp special Vogel was getting on the team for gambling too much on defense. And not just lunges for dribble steals, but jumps for pass tips/intercepts, chasing blocks, etc. So that's grinding too because rather than risk giving up easy big plays he's going to try to make teams work through their offense and through all their players. It's a little bit Dungy where the idea is to make a team execute correctly more times in a row rather than go for low pct gamble homeruns.

If the offensive and defensive philosophies are sound then this is a strong idea. Meaning if you don't have a gap on defense that will get exposed with a little work then you'll force moderately low PCT shots, and on offense if you can count on guys to execute as they wear down and have plans that will eventually result in a decent look, then you'll end up with some shots you want. But if guys stop setting or running the screens as stamina runs down then you'll wish you had a few sets where guys can rest and let one guy do the work...but then you need a guy that can pull that off too.

I'd guess that the 3pt shot is going to be that "easy" offensive set to rest up on. However I don't think this is a JOB type of approach because his goal was specifically to hunt for open 3s, where I think Vogel is specifically hunting for holes in the defense and leaning on 3s to fall back on as needed. He mentioned how he wants the curl man or the PnR dribbler to continue their attack toward the rim until they can force a defender to come stop them (again, Training Camp show). So it sounds like guys were settling for pull ups or dishing too soon and Vogel is trying to make the opposition defense prove they can execute.

And back to the defensive side, I think we see a real difference between JOB and Vogel there. JOB was big on tips, defense and disruption of the passing lanes, and that's not really a bad thing. But it sounds like Vogel is trying to defend the SPACE rather than the ball. The corollary to the offense where he plans on having a defense that simply executes to deny space and lanes as a team until finally they settle for mid-jumpers. So I'm guessing a lot less doubles, maybe even a bit less trapping where you try to force the action and risk giving up an easy play. It makes me wonder if they are going to trap the PnR as much or if Roy won't be coming out so far this year to hedge that.


But ultimately I'm expecting grinding except for TOs, and with the athletes they have he feels like they can get out and run on any TOs out on top without having to gamble for them. It's not going to be a JOB pace game, but we already knew that. But the instant the ball touches DJ, Paul or Green's hands and they are on the court together it's going to be a starter's pistol. Long stretches of body blows and leaning on the other boxer rather than fancy dancing and wild haymakers, but then 5 rounds in just as it's almost getting boring the other guy gets sloppy from exhaustion and opens himself up just for a second and that's where you see the brief flurry of quick jabs (ie, fastbreaks).

You have to figure that it only takes 5-6 solid breaks for 10-12 points to make a huge difference if you aren't returning the favor by gambling.



They seemed to indicate during the special that Vogel has added several plays to the book. He mentioned a new play they were trying to get down. One they were running was a PnPop with Roy and when West's man comes out to help, West (on strong low block) goes to the weakside wing defender (his man is sitting in the corner 3, he's cheated to the weakside block) and pins him away from the baseline. They pass to the wing and he passes into West who now has the baseline and rim protected by his body. Classic grinder where you aren't spacing away from a guy, you are using created space to allow you to go body a different guy in a way that you have a major advantage and control the situation.

Since86
10-08-2012, 09:26 AM
To me the Vogel philosophy is to GRIND. Grind on offense with inside out play and solid screens. Lots of physical interaction that requires work, strength and stamina. Ditto on defense.

Talk about semantics. This is what people say that "smashmouth" is, which you just disagreed with. Regardless of what you want to call it, the vision of the team is this. Frank can call it Foo-Foo Bunny Poo, and it wouldn't change the philosophy that he put in place.




I cannot wait for the season.