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View Full Version : Who has the best defensive back court in the league this year? Miami, Brooklyn, maybe Indiana?



mattie
10-03-2012, 09:41 AM
What does everyone think?

I'm including both wings, the Nets have a lot of talent defensively with Wallace, Johnson and Deron.

The Pacers should be right up there as well. I'd argue Wallace and Granger are about equal, Joe, who's extremely talented on D but doesn't necessarily always give 100%, is better than Paul right now. Deron Williams is no stud on defense, but he's not bad either. He has all the physical abilities to play good defense and as long as he turns it up a little notch, as a unit the Nets look to be pretty good defensively on the perimeter.

Obviously because of defensive gods LBJ and Wade, Miami is probably the best.

I really feel this is going to be PG's coming out party defensively this year, so I expect Indiana's perimeter defense to be pretty spectacular. It'll be interesting to see it all play out.


Edit - I should have said best perimeter defense instead of backcourt.

vnzla81
10-03-2012, 09:45 AM
Boston, Rondo,Bradley and Pierce, Miami is also pretty good, Pacers are up there too.

Major Cold
10-03-2012, 10:17 AM
Boston is good. I say they are better than the Nets. But Miami and us are up there......if play the way we are suppose to. I think the funneling to Hibbert needs to not be the default.

J7F
10-03-2012, 10:19 AM
Out of these options I'ld have to go:

1. Miami - Chalmers, Wade, LeBron
2. Indy - Hill, George, Danny
3. Boston - Rondo, Bradley/JET, Pierce (Rondo is the only defensive stud here to my knowledge... But he is good enough alone to warrant the Cs being high on a list like this... Though I'll admit I know almost nothing about Bradley... Jet is average... And PP is slightly above average at this stage of his career)
4. Brooklyn - DWill, JJ, Wallace (DWill and JJ are both just average defenders... Wallace is a stud)

I know there are other good defensive backcourts that should be above Brooklyn... I don't have time to look them up right now though...

mattie
10-03-2012, 10:32 AM
Wallace has a reputation for being a stud defensively, but he's not actually as good as his reputation. Just because he's such a physically intimidating player, I think many people assume that he's better than he actually is. But yes, he is good defensively.

Joe Johnson believe it or not, when he puts his effort in can shut down about anyone. I've seen him do it. I think he grows a little lax when he's playing against average players though..

BillS
10-03-2012, 10:45 AM
Pacers are up there too.

:-o

Hear that, Elizabeth? I'm comin' to join ya', honey...

:lol:

Trader Joe
10-03-2012, 11:32 AM
Brooklyn? I don't see it Joe Johnson is a pretty average defender. I'd say it's Boston, us and Miami in some order. Probably depends on Avery Bradleys health.

imawhat
10-03-2012, 11:50 AM
OKC. Boston, Memphis, and possibly Philly and Indy round out top 5.

hackashaq
10-03-2012, 12:02 PM
#1. Boston's Rondo-Bradley or even Rondo-Lee backcourt is just insane.
The best defensive backcourt i've seen in years. But they'll use quite a bit of Terry. So that will diminish the D a little.

#2. I'd say Memphis. Conley-Tony Allen is very very good. Two very different approaches to defense, kind of like with Rondo-Bradley. Elite.

#3. Miami.

#4. Denver. Iguodala/Lawson? Wilson Chandler and Corey Brewer off the bench? Andre Miller isn't great, but he's smart defensively.
Yikes.
This might be the #2 backcourt defense because of their depth, but I have to see them play first.

These 4 look elite to me.

Now #5 i'm not sure. Nets, us, San Antonio, Clippers, Utah, Raptors, Pistons. One of those. A few of these teams depend on rookies and sophs a lot. E.g., Terrence Ross looked like a prototypical elite defender/3pt shooter in camps but couldn't do much else. If Ross performs and replaces DeRozan who sucks, that's a great defensive backcourt (next to Kyle Lowry).

hackashaq
10-03-2012, 12:07 PM
OKC. Boston, Memphis, and possibly Philly and Indy round out top 5.

OKC would be hard to sell, imo. Westbrook and Harden both average at best. Thabo <3, but he gives 20 minutes a game. So overall, i don't consider them great

Unclebuck
10-03-2012, 01:12 PM
Westbrook is not average. he's one of the best. Harden is average.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
10-03-2012, 01:33 PM
If you are talking only starters, then IND is in the mix. If you include Augustin, IND is not in the mix. He is a historically bad defender along the lines of Mark Jackson bad. He might try, but can't keep up. Lance is historically lost on offense and defense and OJ is a complete unknown.

hackashaq
10-03-2012, 01:35 PM
Westbrook is not average. he's one of the best. Harden is average.

he's a headless chicken with a lot of tools.

Unclebuck
10-03-2012, 01:58 PM
he's a headless chicken with a lot of tools.

Whatever you think of his offensive decision making (which is what I assume you are referring to) his defense is excellent.

hackashaq
10-03-2012, 02:01 PM
Whatever you think of his offensive decision making (which is what I assume you are referring to) his defense is excellent.

i'm referring to defensive decision making.

Trader Joe
10-03-2012, 02:15 PM
I actually think Harden is a below average defensive player. Brilliant offensive force though. Can do just about anything for your team on that end.

Kstat
10-03-2012, 02:26 PM
Boston gets my vote, without question. Miami is a close second.

I can't put Indy in my top 5, not until hill and George learn how to defend better off the ball and in the 2-man game, both of which got exposed last summer.

Individually, they're fine defenders, but in a team concept they both get lost.

Ace E.Anderson
10-03-2012, 02:28 PM
Though not as consistent as many elite defenders, Westbrook is a very good defender.

I think the order would be: Boston, Miami, MEM (as a poster said earlier, Allen and Conley are elite defenders in the backcourt), and DEN/IND are about equal, just in different ways.

I actually would move NJ closer to the 8-12 range. D.Williams isn't a terribly good defender by any means, JJ has the ability but lacks the intensity most of the time, and Wallace is a shell of his former athletic peak. They're not terrible by any means, but I think they're behind a few of the other teams.

BRushWithDeath
10-03-2012, 02:29 PM
One of them has Lebron?

Then the answer is his team.

Kstat
10-03-2012, 02:34 PM
LeBron doesn't play guard.

BRushWithDeath
10-03-2012, 02:50 PM
LeBron doesn't play guard.

The original question said he was including "both wings" and went to length discussing Gerald Wallace's merits. I assumed Lebron counted.

Kstat
10-03-2012, 03:02 PM
Ah. In that case, I withdraw, though you cant really call it a backcourt. Miami would certainly overtake Boston in that case.

BRushWithDeath
10-03-2012, 03:05 PM
Ah. In that case, I withdraw, though you cant really call it a backcourt. Miami would certainly overtake Boston in that case.

If it is just backcourt, I agree it is probably Boston but only if we're counting Harden as the main SG instead of Sefolosha.

Really?
10-03-2012, 03:19 PM
SPURS

Ace E.Anderson
10-03-2012, 03:46 PM
SPURS

Really?

Between Parker/Neal - Ginbbili/Green (basically their guard rotation) I don't think of any of those players, except maybe Green, that is more than an average to slightly above average on ball defender.

hackashaq
10-03-2012, 03:50 PM
If it is just backcourt, I agree it is probably Boston but only if we're counting Harden as the main SG instead of Sefolosha.

In a Rondo/Bradley vs. Westbrook/Thabo duel, I'd argue that the Boston side has the best two defenders.
And they also compliment each other very well in terms of defensive styles. Rondo/Bradley only defensive weakness is size vs. Kobe types, but that's where Courtney Lee comes in.
If we are talking about backcourt as 1-2 rotation, Boston is just something else.

---------

Anyway, earlier i made my list thinking of 'backcourt' as guards, too. :blush:

If it's 1-2-3, Miami wins.
Though if you consider depth/full rotation, you can make a very strong case for Boston too. Boston has 4-5 very solid perimeter defenders, some of them elite.

#1 Miami
#2 Boston
#3 Denver
#4 probably Memphis
#5... still a lot of options, but I'm leaning the Clippers in this case. They can now throw CP3-Barnes-Grant Hill at teams when they need stops, and that's good.

The next 5 in no order:
Detroit, here's hoping that Knight takes another step, Stuckey stays healthy and Prince stays where he was last year.
Portland. Matthews is pretty awesome. Batum is solid. I've no idea about Lillard, I haven't seen him.
San Antonio. Manu+Leonard=good. Tony Parker is ok.
Pacers.
Nets. DWill has to step up. Wallace and Johnson have to stop declining. But I would give them benefit of the doubt for this season.

Mackey_Rose
10-03-2012, 04:04 PM
Portland's wing tandem of Wes Matthews and Nic Batum has to be up there. I haven't seen Lillard enough to know what he is like though, and he probably will start at the point, with those two on the wings.

Edit: Sorry, didn't read the post above me who mentioned the same thing.

MvPlumlee
10-03-2012, 04:36 PM
Backcourt has to be Boston with Rondo, Bradley, Lee.

Other ones I like: Memphis, Miami, Philly, Indiana.

kidthecat
10-03-2012, 11:40 PM
I'm amazed we're even having the Pacers in a discussion for best defensive backcourt after all these years. Feels good. :D

Really?
10-04-2012, 10:38 AM
Really?

Between Parker/Neal - Ginbbili/Green (basically their guard rotation) I don't think of any of those players, except maybe Green, that is more than an average to slightly above average on ball defender.

Was playing sort of, while I think Parker is not much of a defensive guy, Manu well atleast in the past has been pretty good on defense, he really gets at it in my view, also Kawhi is a pretty good defensive player.

I don't think they are on the level of some of these other guys, but they are still pretty good.

hackashaq
10-04-2012, 10:51 AM
Parker is meh, but he's not that bad. He's improved compared to the early days.
Ginobili/Green/Leonard aren't elite, but they are all good. Neal is horrible, and then they have S-Jax who got old.

But overall, two of their starters (Manu, Kawhi) are good and Parker is ok and they have a good defender off the bench (Green). And they are very smart and very well coached on both ends. They don't really have a true stopper or an All-defense level guy, but I'd consider them top 10.

Since86
10-04-2012, 11:10 AM
Manu doesn't start.

CJ Jones
10-04-2012, 11:19 AM
Boston gets my vote, without question. Miami is a close second.

I can't put Indy in my top 5, not until hill and George learn how to defend better off the ball and in the 2-man game, both of which got exposed last summer.

Individually, they're fine defenders, but in a team concept they both get lost.

off ball maybe, although i dont see Hill struggling off the ball much, but in the 2 man game they're not the problem. its the other one in that equation.

if were talking strictly backcourt we're easily top 5.

edit: i think what separates our backcourt D from nearly every other team is our versatility. We can easily swap positions and not miss a beat. Being able to guard multiple positions is huge in this league, and it's the main reason I put them in the top 5 over teams like Memphis and the Nuggets. Teams with smallish PGs.

hackashaq
10-04-2012, 11:20 AM
Manu doesn't start.

maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. he started for years, then he fractured his hand and finished the season off the bench.
either way, he's a good defender who plays starter minutes when healthy, so i don't think it's so important.

Kstat
10-04-2012, 04:53 PM
off ball maybe, although i dont see Hill struggling off the ball much, but in the 2 man game they're not the problem. its the other one in that equation.

if were talking strictly backcourt we're easily top 5.

edit: i think what separates our backcourt D from nearly every other team is our versatility. We can easily swap positions and not miss a beat. Being able to guard multiple positions is huge in this league, and it's the main reason I put them in the top 5 over teams like Memphis and the Nuggets. Teams with smallish PGs.

Hill is a fine man to man defender, but his PnR defense is what made him expendable in San Antonio. Looking at his performance in the first two rounds last summer, it's still a glaring hole in his defense. The guy just does not make good decisions.

CJ Jones
10-05-2012, 07:39 PM
[QUOTE]Hill is a fine man to man defender, but his PnR defense is what made him expendable in San Antonio.

I hadn't heard that, but I'll take your word for it. I can only go by what I've seen though, and last year he was damn good defensively in every aspect.


Looking at his performance in the first two rounds last summer, it's still a glaring hole in his defense. The guy just does not make good decisions.

A couple bad games doesn't ruin the whole body of work.

Nelson - 15 ppg on 39% fg
Chalmers - 12 ppg on 44% fg

He didn't get abused in the playoffs like people make it sound. With the help of some inept PnR partners he had a couple bad games, that's all.

Kstat
10-05-2012, 08:10 PM
It wasn't the other guy in the PNR. It was hill. There is a reason Orlando ran it almost exclusively when he was in the game and went away from it when he sat down.

You can't look at individual numbers when evaluating PnR defense. It's one of those things you have to see in tape.

It wasn't restricted to last year, either. In both of San Antonio's playoff losses, hill was targeted defensively in PnR situations. He actually went from starting in the 2010 suns series to almost not playing at all by the end of it because Nash was eating him alive.

Yes, I know it's Steve Nash. But since that series it seems teams attack that in every playoff series. Memphis and Orlando both had similar gameplans. Miami didn't, but Miami really relies on ISOs and has no real PnR game with chalmers.

CJ Jones
10-06-2012, 01:12 PM
Like I said, SA's in the past. According to synergy Hill was great in the PnR and defending off ball screens last year. For that matter, so was Paul which flies in the face of conventional wisdom here at PD.

Kstat
10-06-2012, 01:42 PM
...because it doesn't get exploited until playoff time. Teams don't gameplan for that on a Day-to-day day basis, especially during last years condensed season.

I thought he looked better at defending it during the season, too. Then the playoffs began, and teams went back to attacking it like an open wound again.

Hill doesn't struggle with defending off the ball, that's george's issue, which you can still attribute to age and inexperience.

CJ Jones
10-06-2012, 02:56 PM
Fair enough if that's the way you saw it. I didn't see it that way, though. Nelson had two good games and Chalmers got most of his playing off LeBron and Wade. I don't see how you can say he was singled out and was an open wound defensively, but that's you opinion I guess.

As for Paul, he not as bad defending off the ball as PD makes it sound. And when he does struggle it's not as much because of his youth and inexperience as it is his size. Nobody besides Lebron at 6'8" or higher is great at getting around screens, but his size does help him contest shots even if he's not right on the shooter. Surprisingly he was much better than even I thought last year defending off the ball. Much better than your boy Stuckey who after looking at 82games I thought had a great season defensively, but looking at the breakdown on synergy, he was really average at best. Just goes to show stats lie if you don't know how to read them.