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View Full Version : Vogel learning from his mistakes



mattie
10-02-2012, 11:54 AM
I know I wasn't the only one who almost lost it in the playoffs this spring. Vogel for some odd reason wanted to give opposing teams a chance by not playing his starters. Well it looks like he's learned from his atrocious mistake.

http://www.indycornrows.com/2012/10/1/3440260/pacers-media-day-frank-vogel-expects-to-alter-approach-to-pacers


"There were a number of positions last year that we sort of split down the middle, halfway with maybe a 28/20 split of the minutes or a 24/20 split of the minutes," Vogel said about last season's playing rotation. "I think this team is going to be more of a starter-owned team, with all of the starters averaging over 30 minutes and the bench guys averaging in the teens. But I definitely plan to take advantage of our depth."

Trader Joe
10-02-2012, 01:19 PM
I am weeping tears of joy right now.

pizza guy
10-02-2012, 01:30 PM
We were heralded to have nearly historic depth (that we obviously didn't have), and I think Vogel may have gotten caught up in the hype. With the lockout shortened season and the idea that depth would be king because players would need to stay fresh, it made a lot of sense (minus the fact that our depth really wasn't that great).

This year, I think we will be bringing two guys who are starter quality off the bench in Green and Augustin. Mahinmi is another guy who has a proven record as a successful backup filling a specific role. If Lance and Tyler can be worth anything this season, plus the addition of Plumlee, I will really feel good about the depth of this roster.

That said, the starting 5 proved over and over that they could hang with anyone as a unit, and I'm ALL FOR more minutes for them and less for the bench. Not running egg-timer substitutions will be an important strategy as well. This team has many different skills available, and a number of interesting mixes that we could see on the court at a given time. We should be able to line up against anyone and have advantages somewhere on the court. So, not writing in stone how many minutes each guy should see nightly would allow us to utilize the different combinations and mismatches we can create. Hopefully this is something Vogel works on in his game-planning and game-management.

Trader Joe
10-02-2012, 01:33 PM
Our depth last year was one of the biggest myths in the NBA. Outside of DC or Hill the rest of the bench was a pu pu platter. Dahntay gave us some good minutes, but we really needed offense from our wing bench guy. The front court, while full of "smashmouth" was a garbage can as far as talent is concerned.

Mad-Mad-Mario
10-02-2012, 01:34 PM
I agree that the lockout helped influence this. But its good to see Frank realizes this was a mistake.

The fact is that against the upper echelon teams, our starters have to be prepared to play more minutes. And luckily our bench should be capable of playing with a secured lead so we won't have to play the starters late into games where we have a secure lead.

Unclebuck
10-02-2012, 01:36 PM
I didn't think the number of minutes he played the reserves was a mistake, but rather how he often went to an all reserve lineup. More mixing and matching would be as good idea.

But I didn't think it was a big problem last year

BillS
10-02-2012, 01:37 PM
Our depth last year was one of the biggest myths in the NBA. Outside of DC or Hill the rest of the bench was a pu pu platter. Dahntay gave us some good minutes, but we really needed offense from our wing bench guy. The front court, while full of "smashmouth" was a garbage can as far as talent is concerned.

I wouldn't go quite that far. If you compared our bench DEFENSE to previous years I think we were pretty deep, but the bench OFFENSE never gelled the way it should have. Onbe would have expected SOMEONE to be able to get hot each game instead of everyone being cold most of the time.

Trader Joe
10-02-2012, 01:41 PM
Our bench defense featured Tyler Hansbrough. And still does unfortunately.

Mad-Mad-Mario
10-02-2012, 01:55 PM
Our bench defense featured Tyler Hansbrough. And still does unfortunately.

Hopefully Miles bumps him out.

And i think one of the reasons we went with an all reserve line up was without training camp, alot of the arrangement vogel would have wanted to go with had never played together. But I might be stretching on that one.

MvPlumlee
10-02-2012, 02:16 PM
I'm very anxious to find out what his rotations are gonna be like and if he pays attention to whos hot and whos Hansbroughing.

10 man, that leaves the door wide open for Stephenson, who is the most familiar with our offense, to crack the rotation.

I prefer a 9 man rotation so that there is always a starter on the floor and have the sixth and 7th man getting close to starter minutes but when u have sick depth I suppose it isn't a bad thing to make use of it...

Unclebuck
10-02-2012, 02:19 PM
I certainly hopes Miles doesn't bump Tyler out.

Trader Joe
10-02-2012, 02:20 PM
I certainly hopes Miles doesn't bump Tyler out.

Why not?

owl
10-02-2012, 02:24 PM
I didn't think the number of minutes he played the reserves was a mistake, but rather how he often went to an all reserve lineup. More mixing and matching would be as good idea.

But I didn't think it was a big problem last year


I think the only time it was a real problem was in the playoffs. He did not adjust during the playoffs and it hurt the team. The regular season is long so the bench can play more and keep the veterans fresh for extended minutes in the playoffs. Boston does a great job at this.

TrueBlue372
10-02-2012, 02:31 PM
This is outstanding news..... This takes me back to games 4 & 6 of the Heat Series. Game 4 I believe we were up 10 heading into the 2nd quarter. We start the quarter with DC and the rest of the bunch from the bench while Miami started the quarter with both Wade and Lebron. Needless to say our lead was diminshed within 2 minutes of the quarter and we struggled the rest of the game. Playoff basketball is just that! Your best players play nearly the whole game. However I am glad that he spent the summer getting better as well. I love him as our coach!

FlavaDave
10-02-2012, 02:31 PM
Our starting five had a positive plus/minus against Miami overall, right? I am pretty certain Hibbert did as an individual. This is music to my ears as well. Our starting five is killer. They are underrated as a unit because Hill wasn't the starter until late inter season and the 28/20 split stuff. But people are gonna be shocked at how good they are together for a full 82 game slate at 30+ mins apiece.

Major Cold
10-02-2012, 02:55 PM
I didn't think the number of minutes he played the reserves was a mistake, but rather how he often went to an all reserve lineup. More mixing and matching would be as good idea.

But I didn't think it was a big problem last year
The line change has irritated me from the start of Vogel. I do not think it was a lockout thing. I think it has to do with him being a players coach. Which is not detrimental, but you can't lose sight of the goal. Which is winning.

I want to see Tyler next to Roy more. And Paul next to Green. West next to Ian. And DJ with Danny.

Unclebuck
10-02-2012, 03:01 PM
Why not?

That would mean Tyler is playing really bad

Trader Joe
10-02-2012, 03:18 PM
That would mean Tyler is playing really bad

That would be different from how he played most of last season how exactly?

mattie
10-02-2012, 04:21 PM
For the record UB- I had no problem with the minutes during the regular season. I just expected the minutes to jump up big time in the playoffs but they never did.

bballpacen
10-02-2012, 04:21 PM
That would mean Tyler is playing really badOr it would mean Miles is doing very well... Which I would enjoy eating that serving of crow...

Since86
10-02-2012, 04:28 PM
For the record UB- I had no problem with the minutes during the regular season. I just expected the minutes to jump up big time in the playoffs but they never did.

Simply thanking this isn't enough.

Sparhawk
10-02-2012, 05:00 PM
That would mean Tyler is playing really bad

I hope he gets bumped out. DJ and Green will be the focus on the offense for the 2nd unit/bench. Plumlee can at least rebound, which would be a great help. Wouldn't have to try to give Tyler touches all the time and watch him brick or get blocked at the rim.

Sparhawk
10-02-2012, 05:04 PM
Just like UncleBuck wrote, I didn't have a problem with the minutes guys were getting. With a shortened schedule, it was key for the Pacers to keep guys fresh. That was also the main reason that we didn't have so many injuries.

However, the problem I had was switching out all the starters pretty much at once for the bench. That was just a huge mistake, and he got better as the year went along.

I do hope Lance plays well and earns more playing time. He could really put us over the top if he could play more often like he did in the Bulls game.

dal9
10-02-2012, 05:39 PM
Simply thanking this isn't enough.

eh, it probably would have been.

Since86
10-02-2012, 06:23 PM
Not for me. Makes me think about how silly the whole the "starters were the problem" and the more recent "starters got (I forget the actual term that was used but) killed."

CableKC
10-02-2012, 07:06 PM
At the start of and the season....I'm envisioning a 10 man rotation...as Vogel suggests with a 30/18 split:

GHill ( 30 mpg ) / DJAugustin ( 18 mpg )
PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) / LStephenson ( 18 mpg )
DGranger ( 30 mpg ) / GGreen ( 18 mpg )
DWest ( 30 mpg ) / THansbrough ( 18 mpg )
Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 18 mpg )

But I fully expect that this rotation will slowly be whittled down to a 9 man rotation as Vogel figures out what works and doesn't work as we get closer to the Playoffs.

GHill ( 21 mpg ) / DJAugustin ( 27 mpg )
PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) / GHill ( 9 mpg ) / GGreen ( 9 mpg )
DGranger ( 30 mpg ) / GGreen ( 18 mpg )
DWest ( 30 mpg ) / THansbrough ( 9 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 9 mpg )
Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 18 mpg )

My thought is that DJ and Green are too good to limit to 18 mpg and that Lance ( unless he totally breaks out ) is going to see his minutes reduced at the expense of the 2 of them. Add in that I expect that unless Hansbrough becomes far more consistent on the offensive end.....I can also see Hansbrough's minutes reduced as well with Mahinmi getting the bulk of the "1st Big Man off the bench" minutes.

Sparhawk
10-02-2012, 08:49 PM
At the start of and the season....I'm envisioning a 10 man rotation...as Vogel suggests with a 30/18 split:

GHill ( 30 mpg ) / DJAugustin ( 18 mpg )
PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) / LStephenson ( 18 mpg )
DGranger ( 30 mpg ) / GGreen ( 18 mpg )
DWest ( 30 mpg ) / THansbrough ( 18 mpg )
Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 18 mpg )

But I fully expect that this rotation will slowly be whittled down to a 9 man rotation as Vogel figures out what works and doesn't work as we get closer to the Playoffs.

GHill ( 21 mpg ) / DJAugustin ( 27 mpg )
PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) / GHill ( 9 mpg ) / GGreen ( 9 mpg )
DGranger ( 30 mpg ) / GGreen ( 18 mpg )
DWest ( 30 mpg ) / THansbrough ( 9 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 9 mpg )
Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 18 mpg )

My thought is that DJ and Green are too good to limit to 18 mpg and that Lance ( unless he totally breaks out ) is going to see his minutes reduced at the expense of the 2 of them. Add in that I expect that unless Hansbrough becomes far more consistent on the offensive end.....I can also see Hansbrough's minutes reduced as well with Mahinmi getting the bulk of the "1st Big Man off the bench" minutes.

I'm right there with you. I can def see a 9 man rotation, but I fully expect Lance to play better. It'll be very interesting to see how things play out. Any time Hans plays less than 10min/game is a win in my book.

Freddie fan
10-02-2012, 09:28 PM
One of the interesting things to see with Stephenson possibly playing more is how that works with him and Augustin on the court at the same time. Both are poor perimeter shooters and Green is potentially the only good shooter on the second unit, which could create some ugly offense.

It's another reason, I think, to try Augustin with the first unit more and Hill with the second unit, where he'd be needed more as a shooter and scorer.

CableKC
10-02-2012, 09:58 PM
I'm right there with you. I can def see a 9 man rotation, but I fully expect Lance to play better. It'll be very interesting to see how things play out. Any time Hans plays less than 10min/game is a win in my book.
Unless Mahinmi and Miles shows up with some hidden and unknown offensive game....I don't see Hansbrough being eliminated from the rotation. Of course....unless Granger is shifted over to play a few backup PF minutes. The only way that I can see this happening is if Lance totally convinces Vogel that he should play 18+ mpg with and we do what the Heat does and play a lineup like the Heat does.

Major Cold
10-02-2012, 10:12 PM
Until Tyler learns to set solid screens, seal his defender in the paint, and box out he will struggle to be what the Pacers need. He could shoot 52% from the field, but struggle to get a good rebound rate. That would be worse for us than if he average 6 boards a game and shot 41% from the field.

mattie
10-02-2012, 11:09 PM
One of the interesting things to see with Stephenson possibly playing more is how that works with him and Augustin on the court at the same time. Both are poor perimeter shooters and Green is potentially the only good shooter on the second unit, which could create some ugly offense.

It's another reason, I think, to try Augustin with the first unit more and Hill with the second unit, where he'd be needed more as a shooter and scorer.

DJ has performed poorly shooting the ball, and frankly it is unrealistic to expect him to turn it around, but he is easily the most skilled shooter on the second unit. While Green did an excellent job of picking his spots in half a season with the Nets last season, DJ is a pure shooter. Dude has a beautiful stroke, and if he carefully chooses his shots, he'll be lights out from downtown this season.

Eleazar
10-03-2012, 12:14 AM
I think a lot of people are getting too hyped for DJ.

clownskull
10-03-2012, 07:57 AM
I didn't think the number of minutes he played the reserves was a mistake, but rather how he often went to an all reserve lineup. More mixing and matching would be as good idea.

But I didn't think it was a big problem last year

yes, this^
many times when we went from all starters to all bench- we ran into trouble. it really showed itself in the heat series.

BillS
10-03-2012, 09:34 AM
Based on the report from Day 1 of camp, Vogel kept the bench together as a unit even to the point of having Young sub for Danny when Danny sat out to rest his knee.

I can think of some legitimate reasons to do that, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't concern me a little. At the minimum it tells me he still plans to platoon the bench for significant amounts of time - maybe not as much as last year, but it certainly doesn't indicate he is focusing on mixing the starters and bench. After all, he could have kept the other starters together and brought someone else up from the bench unit to play 3 if that was the purpose.

Major Cold
10-03-2012, 10:02 AM
Based on the report from Day 1 of camp, Vogel kept the bench together as a unit even to the point of having Young sub for Danny when Danny sat out to rest his knee.

I can think of some legitimate reasons to do that, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't concern me a little. At the minimum it tells me he still plans to platoon the bench for significant amounts of time - maybe not as much as last year, but it certainly doesn't indicate he is focusing on mixing the starters and bench. After all, he could have kept the other starters together and brought someone else up from the bench unit to play 3 if that was the purpose.

I think it is not a cause for concern. Right now they are running through drills and scrimmaging. The new guys are running the sets for the first time. Why not do that together with the starting core defending, and Young (who is defensive minded) in with them.

I do not think this is an indicator of sub patterns for the season. And neither will be anything in the preseason, unless noted by Vogel. I am one of the biggest critics of the line change subs, but I don't think this is an indicator of what is to come.

Sookie
10-03-2012, 04:50 PM
Based on the report from Day 1 of camp, Vogel kept the bench together as a unit even to the point of having Young sub for Danny when Danny sat out to rest his knee.

I can think of some legitimate reasons to do that, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't concern me a little. At the minimum it tells me he still plans to platoon the bench for significant amounts of time - maybe not as much as last year, but it certainly doesn't indicate he is focusing on mixing the starters and bench. After all, he could have kept the other starters together and brought someone else up from the bench unit to play 3 if that was the purpose.

It's also an entirely new bench with returning starters.

Although I hope he's able to mix and match starters and bench, I do think they will be together as a unit some. That's been Vogel's coaching choice for two seasons now. (I don't really have an issue with that, so long as the pieces fit. ) So I'm sure he wants them to be able to gell as much as possible.

I think it'll be a lot easier for Vogel not to go to his bench so much this season. The makeup of last season, particularly with West being injured, didn't allow him to play 30+ minutes a game, and you had to play Hans more. We also wanted to give Hill starters minutes, which came at the cost of PG and Collison (for most of the season, until DC was replaced.)

Vogel doesn't have those issues, except with DJ. But even then, it's not going to shock me if we just end up with a 3 guard rotation, so all of them are getting "starters minutes."

vnzla81
10-03-2012, 08:43 PM
Lest hope Vogel learns how to guard Lebron and Wade by stop going over the screen time and time again.

LG33
10-04-2012, 10:05 PM
I know this is something I complained about last season, so I'm glad they're taking a look at it in training camp. These are the things that make me more comfortable with Vogel at the helm.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20121004/SPORTS04/210050319/Pacers-take-smash-mouth-basketball-another-level?nclick_check=1 (http://www.indystar.com/article/20121004/SPORTS04/210050319/Pacers-take-smash-mouth-basketball-another-level?nclick_check=1)
by Mike Wells

The Indiana Pacers have taken smash-mouth basketball to another level, with assistant video coordinator Jhared Simpson wearing football shoulder pads in practice during a screening drill. Assistant coach Jim Boylen pitched the idea to coach Frank Vogel. Boylen got the drill from Michigan State coach Tom Izzo, whose teams have a blue collar reputation. Boylen also used it when he coached at the University of Utah.

"It's a reference point type drill," Boylen said. "You want to make the pad click. It gave our guys the freedom to smack somebody without anybody getting hurt. It also gave them a good feel for what a solid screen feels like."

The objective of the drill was to try to help the Pacers set better screens. They have struggled in that area over the years.
"That was the idea," Vogel said. "Maybe we'll become a better screening team. One of the differences between the (Miami) Heat and our team during the playoff series last year was that I thought they were a better screening team."

Sookie
10-04-2012, 10:42 PM
What I like about Frank, is that he's very good at spotting his own flaws and the team's flaws as a whole. He's willing to learn, and he doesn't have the ego to prevent him from asking someone for help.

SO important for a young coach, who is already pretty good at the whole Xs and Os thing, as well as the motivating thing.

gummy
10-05-2012, 03:19 AM
I know this is something I complained about last season, so I'm glad they're taking a look at it in training camp. These are the things that make me more comfortable with Vogel at the helm.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20121004/SPORTS04/210050319/Pacers-take-smash-mouth-basketball-another-level?nclick_check=1 (http://www.indystar.com/article/20121004/SPORTS04/210050319/Pacers-take-smash-mouth-basketball-another-level?nclick_check=1)
by Mike Wells

The Indiana Pacers have taken smash-mouth basketball to another level, with assistant video coordinator Jhared Simpson wearing football shoulder pads in practice during a screening drill. Assistant coach Jim Boylen pitched the idea to coach Frank Vogel. Boylen got the drill from Michigan State coach Tom Izzo, whose teams have a blue collar reputation. Boylen also used it when he coached at the University of Utah.

"It's a reference point type drill," Boylen said. "You want to make the pad click. It gave our guys the freedom to smack somebody without anybody getting hurt. It also gave them a good feel for what a solid screen feels like."

The objective of the drill was to try to help the Pacers set better screens. They have struggled in that area over the years.
"That was the idea," Vogel said. "Maybe we'll become a better screening team. One of the differences between the (Miami) Heat and our team during the playoff series last year was that I thought they were a better screening team."

Good stuff. If our guys could set a decent screen on a consistent basis I think it'll make significant difference.

Also of note in that article - Mels Daniels attending practices as a guest of Walsh.