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Pacerized
09-29-2012, 08:17 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings/_/year/2013/week/-1

I didn't see this posted yet. I don't think Philly is a better team but for everyone else the arguement can be made that they are. I hope the Pacers prove them wrong but the concept that our bench improved is just false. We need to improve from within if we're going to move forward this season.


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1

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/mia/miami-heat)Miami (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/mia/miami-heat)
46-20

How can they not start out peering down at 29 other teams? Even if the Heat do launch slowly with Wade and Ray Ray healing, it's not just our rule about defending champions that matters. Also: Mr. James returns as undisputed King of his sport for the first time ever.


2

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lal/los-angeles-lakers)Los Angeles (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lal/los-angeles-lakers)
41-25

Maybe you can't win anything in the summertime. What you can do, though, is leapfrog everyone else in Power Rankdom apart from the defending champs when you trade for Dwight and Nash without surrendering Pau, which still hasn't fully sunk in even after writing that sentence dozens of times.


3

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)Oklahoma City (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)
47-19

Am I, like so many out there, overlooking the fact that the Lakers still have lots of chemistry wrinkles to work out and health questions to answer? Guilty. Thing is, OKC convenes for camp amid plenty of its own uncertainty thanks to Harden's contract situation, Perk's health and that Finals flameout.


4

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/sa/san-antonio-spurs)San Antonio (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/sa/san-antonio-spurs)
50-16

Timmy, Manu and Tony don't get any easier to read with age. Who could have predicted the 20 games in a row they won or the four straight Ls to OKC after that brush with invincibility? Want to write the Spurs off after a summer of precious little change? Go for it. We'll pass.


5

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lac/los-angeles-clippers)Los Angeles (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lac/los-angeles-clippers)
40-26

Last season of bliss before CP3 leaves Blake and Clipperland behind? Or the start of something truly special that makes L.A. feel like Manchester with two true powerhouse teams in the same neighborhood? Like it or not, Staples Center is the NBA's two-team epicenter for juicy storylines. For now.


6

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/bos/boston-celtics)Boston (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/bos/boston-celtics)
39-27

Whether or not you agree with Rondo's claim that the Celts are still on the short list of five teams that can win it all, there's no denying they'll have a bench this time with JET Terry, Courtney Lee, Jeff Green and Darko arriving to succeed the departed Ray Allen and Stiemsma.


7

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/phi/philadelphia-76ers)Philadelphia (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/phi/philadelphia-76ers)
35-31

Find myself drawn to the Sixers as much as anyone in the East chasing Miami. Time will tell if I'm assuming too much about Bynum's impact, but Philly automatically skyrockets here for now in the wake of a trade that landed an undeniable franchise center and got Dwight out of the East.


8

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/ind/indiana-pacers)Indiana (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/ind/indiana-pacers)
42-24

Indy's splashiest acquisition was Donnie Walsh. Nothing wrong with that -- not when the Pacers also re-signed Hibbert and George Hill -- but that means Frank Vogel is clearly dependent on improvement from within to maintain their spot in the East's elite. Not so simple.


9

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/den/denver-nuggets)Denver (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/den/denver-nuggets)
38-28

The Nuggets, with Iguodala, are right there with Memphis and Dallas in the West's steel-cage battle for the bottom four playoff seeds. Yet you can't shake the suspicion that, even if Iggy and JaVale McGee have big years, they'll find out first-hand what sort of monster they helped L.A. assemble.


10

(http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/dal/dallas-mavericks)Dallas (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/dal/dallas-mavericks)
36-30

After missing out on D-Will, Dallas never dreamed it could offer only one-year deals to the rest of the free-agent pack and still come away with Mayo, Kaman, Brand and Collison. The problem? The West is suddenly super deep again. And now Dallas has to score in Free Agency 2013.

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AugustinGrangerHill
09-29-2012, 08:25 PM
I disagree that our bench did not improve. There is no denying that Ian Mahinmi is a big improvement over Lou Amundson . If you compare Leandro Barbosa and Gerald Green from last year Gerald Green was the better player, Gerald is also younger so he has more room to improve. D.J. Augustin and Darren Collison are close, I think they are even and based on the person's opinion one might be better than the other, but I think D.J. is a better fit for this team, I think his skills suit this team better than what Collison's did. I like to think of it as a trade. The Pacers traded away Darren Collison, Lou Amundson, and Leandro Barbosa for Gerald Green, Ian Mahinmi, and D.J. Augustin. I think the Pacers won

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-29-2012, 08:48 PM
Philly ahead of us is a joke. They lost what 3 of their starters. Sure they got Bynum but still. And does Stein just not know who DJ Augustin is? Or what about Gerald Green. Green

Ichi
09-29-2012, 08:54 PM
I think the 6ers shouldn't be ahead of us, but can see it. However, it's ridiculous how high the Clippers are. They should be sitting about number 8 or 9.

cdash
09-29-2012, 08:55 PM
Yeah I was pretty surprised to see Philly ahead of us. First off, while Bynum is a nice addition, that team is still oddly put together. And don't underestimate the loss of Andre Iguodala. That guy was a rock for that team defensively. Plus, I'm still not sold on Bynum being healthy for an entire 82 game season. I actually think we are better than Boston too, but that argument has more merit to me than Philly.

PacersHomer
09-29-2012, 10:28 PM
Philly is overrated as usual.

Steagles
09-29-2012, 11:11 PM
Philly is going to fall apart without Iggy. Without him it is a bunch of overrated youngsters. Bynum isn't mature either.

shags
09-29-2012, 11:36 PM
Philly ahead of us is a joke. They lost what 3 of their starters. Sure they got Bynum but still. And does Stein just not know who DJ Augustin is? Or what about Gerald Green. Green

Yeah, Stein should show some respect for the starting point guard and the 6th man for teams that won a combined 22% of their games last year. Geez.

naptownmenace
09-29-2012, 11:39 PM
Philly should be improved but will miss Iggy's defense and leadership. However, they still have Jrue Holliday, Evan Turner, Spencer Hawes, and they added Jason Richardson and Bynum. Don't forget that they are coached by Doug Collins as well. They're gonna be a very tough team to beat if they can stay healthy.

cdash
09-30-2012, 12:04 AM
Don't forget that they are coached by Doug Collins as well.

I'm not sure that's a good thing. It's year three for Doug Collins in Philly. That's usually the time we wears out his welcome with his players.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-30-2012, 12:04 AM
Richardson sucked last year. So unless he has a rebound year thats really not something working in their favor.

Peck
09-30-2012, 12:47 AM
The Clippers being that high is a joke.

I need to really start looking at the 76ers because while I think they will be good I just don't see them as that good. I could see the Knicks having a better year than them but I need to think on this for awhile.

graphic-er
09-30-2012, 01:08 AM
You all just need to get used to the Pacers being the media's Dark Horse this year.

ReginaldWayne
09-30-2012, 01:40 AM
The 76ers also added Dorrell Wright, Nick Young, Kwame Brown, and have T Young and Lavoy Allen who played well in the playoffs. I still think the pacers are better, but they seem to be a deep team with a lot of young talent.

Ace E.Anderson
09-30-2012, 03:42 AM
Unless you're an established, veteran team, national media members will sleep on you When you don't make any sexy moves in the offseason. We've seemed to have thrived within the underdog role ever since Vogel took over; so this just adds to the bulletin board. (though idk if being ranked 8th in the power rankings constitutes as an underdog)

Heisenberg
09-30-2012, 05:24 AM
Dallas is living off reputation. They did well for themselves after missing out on the superstuds, but...why? It's not like they're us, they've got plenty of goodwill in the fanbase why build a maybe playoff team instead of saying screw it and get a top 5 pick? But DC/Mayo/Marion?/Dirk/Kaman is just not that good, they're clearly not winning a title this year, I think it's 50/50 they even make the playoffs. They're old as dirt, you made moves to get a star, it didn't work, let those moves reach their conclusion and get (hopefully) a star in the draft by sucking.

In a vacuum Dallas had a nice offseason with what they were working with. But looking back in 5 years I think it's going to be a major misstep. And them as a top 10 team is just ridiculous, that's a .500 team, maybe.

D-BONE
09-30-2012, 08:03 AM
I'd say the bench is better, but how much better is key, and that remains to be seen. Not sold on Hans or Mahinmi. Green & Agustin have had their moments, but still have something to prove as far as consistency, so there are question marks.

I agree with a poster (??) I saw in another thread talking about the potential that our expectations have outstripped the actual improvement potential of the roster. I don't know if that's exactly how I'd explain it, but I think the sentiment is simpler.

My take is more like, since Vogel's first (partial) season, each iteration of the team has gone about as ideally as one could realistically hope. On one hand, that leads you to believe their can be more improvment...and there may be. On the flip side, we've come so far given this core, this may be the year where we experience more struggles. It's easier to make quick gains from a lower starting point (what Vogel essentially inherited) than from a successful position (result of last roughly season & 1/3 under Vogel) trying to rise to the next tier.

So, this may be the year where we plateau a bit, or possibly even regress slightly, although I'm not saying we won't be a good team/playoff team. Although the bench may end up being better when it's all said and done, I tend to think any further improvement falls primarily on Roy, Paul, and George to make noticeable strides in development. And a healthy, better shooting % Danny wouldn't hurt.

BlueNGold
09-30-2012, 08:47 AM
Philly is going to fall apart without Iggy. Without him it is a bunch of overrated youngsters. Bynum isn't mature either.

This will be one of the more interesting things about this season. Iggy was critical defensively but Bynum's impact in the paint will completely change that team. They will need good shooters to go along with Bynum and good playmaking to take a step forward. If Bynum is a good fit, I think they improved. If not, they took a slight step back.

Lance George
09-30-2012, 09:12 AM
Yeah, Stein should show some respect for the starting point guard and the 6th man for teams that won a combined 22% of their games last year. Geez.

Team sport. Go look up what that phrase means, and then try posting again once you understand it.

BlueNGold
09-30-2012, 09:21 AM
The Clippers being that high is a joke.

I need to really start looking at the 76ers because while I think they will be good I just don't see them as that good. I could see the Knicks having a better year than them but I need to think on this for awhile.

The Knicks have a ton of talent and will challenge Philly, Boston and Indiana. Players who are still in their prime are Mello, JR Smith and Tyson Chandler. Amare Stoudemire is no longer dominant, but he's still an above average starter. I think people discount his contributions because he's not the same player. They do need Shumpert to return by midseason, although Ronnie Brewer was a decent addition to fill that need.

Their PG situation is a question mark, but JKidd's experience and chemistry with Chandler should help them. Felton's numbers are on par with Augustin.

Then you have the old guys who fill out the roster like Camby, Thomas and Sheed. It's hard to say whether those guys would be more effective than Tyler and our other scrubs.

But the reason why the Knicks have a chance is really Mello. He can be a load and take over the game. We don't have a player like that.

Sollozzo
09-30-2012, 09:59 AM
The Knicks have a ton of talent and will challenge Philly, Boston and Indiana. Players who are still in their prime are Mello, JR Smith and Tyson Chandler. Amare Stoudemire is no longer dominant, but he's still an above average starter. I think people discount his contributions because he's not the same player. They do need Shumpert to return by midseason, although Ronnie Brewer was a decent addition to fill that need.

Their PG situation is a question mark, but JKidd's experience and chemistry with Chandler should help them. Felton's numbers are on par with Augustin.

Then you have the old guys who fill out the roster like Camby, Thomas and Sheed. It's hard to say whether those guys would be more effective than Tyler and our other scrubs.

But the reason why the Knicks have a chance is really Mello. He can be a load and take over the game. We don't have a player like that.


I agree. I've been saying for a while that the Knicks' talent is much higher than the Pacers. I sure wouldn't want to play them in a playoff series. I haven't forgotten that weekend whooping they gave us back in March where they won 115-100 on a Friday night at the Garden, and then the next night ran us out of Indy by 14 points.

Lin was a fun story, but I don't think they will miss him all that much. Felton worked out very well there two years ago and J-Kidd will be a fine backup who will be an excellent addition in the locker room. As you say, he has chemistry with Chandler from Dallas. They now have two important players who understand how a championship team conducts itself. They can bring their rings into the locker room and say "You want this? Well here's how you have to do do things...."

Roy struggled to put up points against an Orlando team without Howard and a Miami team without Bosh. The Knicks' would absolutely torment him on D with the rotation of Chandler and Camby. Camby, while ancient, still averaged 9 rebounds a game last year and played in 59/62 games. Those two would make life unpleasant for Roy.

Then you have Melo and Amare, who are still way better than any player we have on our roster. The Knicks are way more talented than the Pacers on paper. The only question is if the chemistry can work, and that's certainly a legitimate question. If it doesn't happen this season then I don't think it will ever happen. But if it does, then everyone not named Miami needs to watch their back.

Sollozzo
09-30-2012, 10:04 AM
Philly ahead of us is a joke. They lost what 3 of their starters. Sure they got Bynum but still. And does Stein just not know who DJ Augustin is? Or what about Gerald Green. Green


Collison and Augistin essentially cancel each other out. If Augistin is better than Collison, it isn't by much. Augistin was able to do a lot more last year because he was on such a bad team. Collison had to share with George Hill.

Our net gain was essentially Gerald Green, Ian Mahinmi, a rookie, and some scrubs for training camp. That's not enough to make a national writer like Stein bat an eye. It's pretty weak compared to what most teams in the East did this offseason.

Hicks
09-30-2012, 10:20 AM
They may cancel each other out by talent, but if Augustin is going to be a distributor contrasting to Collison's scorer role, then I think that could have a greater impact on the rest of the bench than Collison did.

Ace E.Anderson
09-30-2012, 10:49 AM
I agree. I've been saying for a while that the Knicks' talent is much higher than the Pacers. I sure wouldn't want to play them in a playoff series. I haven't forgotten that weekend whooping they gave us back in March where they won 115-100 on a Friday night at the Garden, and then the next night ran us out of Indy by 14 points.

Lin was a fun story, but I don't think they will miss him all that much. Felton worked out very well there two years ago and J-Kidd will be a fine backup who will be an excellent addition in the locker room. As you say, he has chemistry with Chandler from Dallas. They now have two important players who understand how a championship team conducts itself. They can bring their rings into the locker room and say "You want this? Well here's how you have to do do things...."

Roy struggled to put up points against an Orlando team without Howard and a Miami team without Bosh. The Knicks' would absolutely torment him on D with the rotation of Chandler and Camby. Camby, while ancient, still averaged 9 rebounds a game last year and played in 59/62 games. Those two would make life unpleasant for Roy.

Then you have Melo and Amare, who are still way better than any player we have on our roster. The Knicks are way more talented than the Pacers on paper. The only question is if the chemistry can work, and that's certainly a legitimate question. If it doesn't happen this season then I don't think it will ever happen. But if it does, then everyone not named Miami needs to watch their back.

Roy struggled to score? I must have missed that. Big Roy avg 12 and 11 in the playoffs on only 9 shots a game. You up those FGA to 13, and it's prob closer to 15-16 ppg. I think at this point in their careers, he's better than Amare. Maybe not as talented, but does offer more contributions within the game.

I agree the Knicks have a lot of talent. If they can get or together, they could easily be number two in the east. But we've been saying that since Melo was traded there. If they don't do anything this season, like make the 2nd rd of the playoffs, I'd have to think they'd blow it up and see that the pieces aren't complimenting one another.

Should be interesting how they begin the season.

Pacerized
09-30-2012, 10:56 AM
Collison and Augistin essentially cancel each other out. If Augistin is better than Collison, it isn't by much. Augistin was able to do a lot more last year because he was on such a bad team. Collison had to share with George Hill.

Our net gain was essentially Gerald Green, Ian Mahinmi, a rookie, and some scrubs for training camp. That's not enough to make a national writer like Stein bat an eye. It's pretty weak compared to what most teams in the East did this offseason.

I agree although I give DC the edge over DJ. While our net gain was Green and Ian our net loss in that was a ton of cap space, Barbosa, Lou and Jones.
Green is not really a step up over Barbosa and Jones. Ian is a step up over Lou at center but it's sad that this was the best we could do for a 4 year contract. He doesn't block shots, and is too weak to really defend the post and protect the rim. He'll be a plus in guarding quicker big men though.
At best we broke even with our bench which again is sad considering what we spent and had to work with. This isn't being negative about the team, I expect our core to improve but it is being realistic. We're ranked a little low IMO but I can understand.

Nuntius
09-30-2012, 11:15 AM
I've been saying for a while that the Knicks' talent is much higher than the Pacers.

Does it translate in more wins in the regular season or the playoffs? No? Then why should we care?

Sollozzo
09-30-2012, 11:18 AM
Does it translate in more wins in the regular season or the playoffs? No? Then why should we care?


And you know this how?

Speaking of the regular season though, they did wax us pretty good on a back to back in March.....

Nuntius
09-30-2012, 11:19 AM
If Augistin is better than Collison, it isn't by much.

The argument is not which one is better. It is who is a better fit. Personally, I believe that DC is a better player than DJ. But DJ could be a better fit for our team. That would improve us as fit > talent.

Nuntius
09-30-2012, 11:21 AM
And you know this how?

Well, the last season and the playoffs said so. We will see if anything is going to change this season.



Speaking of the regular season though, they did wax us pretty good on a back to back in March.....

And we waxed OKC and LAL the exact same way. Does it say anything?

Sollozzo
09-30-2012, 11:25 AM
Well, the last season and the playoffs said so. We will see if anything is going to change this season.



And we waxed OKC and LAL the exact same way. Does it say anything?


We didn't beat OKC and LAL on back to backs in a weekend. The Knicks beat us two consecutive days by a combined total of 29 points. One loss can be a fluke, but there's something alarming when it happens back to back days to the same team.

All I'm saying is that I think that too many people on this forum and around the NBA in general have written the Knicks off. Do I think we could beat them in the playoffs? Absolutely. But would I be the least bit surprised if they beat us.

Also, the Knicks would have likely steamrolled the Magic just like we did. And we won one more game against the Heat than them, but they had to contend with Bosh for the entire series.

Sollozzo
09-30-2012, 11:27 AM
The argument is not which one is better. It is who is a better fit. Personally, I believe that DC is a better player than DJ. But DJ could be a better fit for our team. That would improve us as fit > talent.


That may be true. But I'm just explaining why a national writer like Stein isn't overly impressed with our personnel moves.

cdash
09-30-2012, 11:34 AM
We didn't beat OKC and LAL on back to backs in a weekend. The Knicks beat us two consecutive days by a combined total of 29 points. One loss can be a fluke, but there's something alarming when it happens back to back days to the same team.

All I'm saying is that I think that too many people on this forum and around the NBA in general have written the Knicks off. Do I think we could beat them in the playoffs? Absolutely. But would I be the least bit surprised if they beat us.

Also, the Knicks would have likely steamrolled the Magic just like we did. And we won one more game against the Heat than them, but they had to contend with Bosh for the entire series.

The Knicks have a ton of pure talent. No one is debating that. If the games were played on paper, they would easily be better than the Pacers. The problem is, their talent doesn't mesh very well. It's a poorly put together roster. While they have the ability to click on any given night (or two, since you seem to be putting an alarming amount of stock in a random back-to-back), I don't think they can sustain that throughout an entire season or throughout a playoff series against a team that is relatively close in talent but more cohesively put together.

Sandman21
09-30-2012, 11:43 AM
The Knicks beat us two consecutive days by a combined total of 29 points. One loss can be a fluke, but there's something alarming when it happens back to back days to the same team.

Fresh off a coaching change, no fanbase should understand how that can re-energize a team better than us.

Nuntius
09-30-2012, 11:44 AM
We didn't beat OKC and LAL on back to backs in a weekend.

Cause we didn't play them on a back to back in a weekend ;)

Also, I don't remember OKC or LAL beating us at all. Also, I don't remember us having a 4th quarter meltdown against OKC and LAL last season which lead to an epic 40 - 17 4th quarter comeback.

That's the problem with cherry-picking results, my friend. Anyone can do this :D



All I'm saying is that I think that too many people on this forum and around the NBA in general have written the Knicks off. Do I think we could beat them in the playoffs? Absolutely. But would I be the least bit surprised if they beat us.

There are several people who have written the Knicks off but there's a good reason for this. Their flaws are quite obvious.

Personally, I'm not going to write them off just yet for the simple reason that this is the first full season under Woodson. I'll have to wait and see how they perform before I judge them.



Also, the Knicks would have likely steamrolled the Magic just like we did. And we won one more game against the Heat than them, but they had to contend with Bosh for the entire series.

Yeah, they would probably beat the Magic.

About the Heat series though. It's not a matter of 4 - 1 vs 4 - 2. It's the matter that both teams lost the series. The Heat never beat the Pacers by 33 points. I repeat, 33 points. Also, the Knicks were never ahead in the series. We were ahead 2 - 1 at one point. Their only win came after they were already down 3 - 0.

I can see why some people have not written the Knicks off. I can see why they still consider them formidable opponents. And I do as well. But the idea of them being better than us just because they have sexier names is preposterous.

J7F
09-30-2012, 11:59 AM
Collison and Augistin essentially cancel each other out. If Augistin is better than Collison, it isn't by much. Augistin was able to do a lot more last year because he was on such a bad team. Collison had to share with George Hill.

Our net gain was essentially Gerald Green, Ian Mahinmi, a rookie, and some scrubs for training camp. That's not enough to make a national writer like Stein bat an eye. It's pretty weak compared to what most teams in the East did this offseason.

This wasn't the offseason moves power rankings though... I believe they did those a month or two ago...

This is the actual power rankings... And I don't see how a team that finished 5th in the league and lost in 6 to the eventual champs in the 2nd round and then added talent to the bench plus should grow some talent in 3 of the 5 starters doesn't put us a notch or two higher than we are here...

I can see how everyone not named Philly or Clippers are ahead of us though...

The Clippers are way overrated... All offense no D...

And I'm not sold on Bynum being a savior in Philly... As others have pointed out he has some major maturity issues to overcome and is very injury prone... I don't see him leading them past a playoff birth this year... They scream first round out to me...

And Dallas at 10 is absurd...

Eddie Gill
09-30-2012, 01:22 PM
A few thoughts:

You cannot overlook Bynum's history of immaturity when talking about the Sixers. For years he was kept in check in LA by Phil, Kobe, Gasol, Fisher, etc. We saw how he reacted to a new, younger coach last season and I wasn't impressed. In addition to very real concerns over his injury history, I think there are huge question marks surrounding his ability to be a franchise player - especially in a tough media market. Consider me unimpressed by Philly.

As far as the Clippers, unless Vinny Del Negro was replaced, I don't see them doing much. They're almost like a mid-2000s Phoenix Suns redux. Sexy pick, I'll be watching them on league pass, but I don't think they're one of the 10 best teams in the league.

Boston has come in with the age questions each of the last 3 years. At some point they are going to break down, but until I actually see it happen, I have no problems with them where they are on this list.

If Minnesota's roster played for the New York Knicks or Brooklyn Nets, I seriously feel like they would crack the top 10 in a lot of these rankings. Rubio coming back (assuming he's fully recovered from his knee injury) is going to be huge - they were on track for a playoff spot before he got hurt last year. Wouldn't surprise me to see them challenging the Utah/Dallas/Memphis slots in the West.

I have no idea what Portland will do this year, but Lillard will be a treat to watch. Wouldn't be surprised at all to see them in the playoffs.

J7F
09-30-2012, 01:26 PM
I also understand how San An and Boston are put above us with the way their veterans pushed them to another level later last season... But those aging teams have Indiana and Denver respectively waiting to overthrow them...

ECKrueger
09-30-2012, 01:39 PM
I'm just glad this year we're arguing over whether or not we should be a little above or below 8th best in the league.

Eleazar
09-30-2012, 01:57 PM
The problem with these rankings is they really are mostly just looking at the stat sheets, and not taking into consideration all of the intangibles. Sexy names are nice, but as the Knicks have proven you need more than sexy names, and a sexy name doesn't always mean that player is more talented either. I think this is missed most of all with Bynum. Not only does he have maturity and injury issues, but as far as I can remember outside of maybe his first season or two he hasn't spent a season as the best post player on his team. At best he was the third best player on the Lakers any given season, put him in a situation where he is the focal point and given his maturity issues I see him as being put in a position where he is just as likely to be an epic failure as he is to be their savior.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the Clippers, but not on the 76ers. Not when they had to give up Iggy.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-30-2012, 02:17 PM
Its important to remember that when the Knicks beat us twice we were without George Hill, who even though he wasn't starting he was more important than DC at this point.

Besides, I am sorry but the Knicks lost Lin and we saw how well Carmelo and Amare work without Lin. They don't work, like at all.

hoosierguy
09-30-2012, 03:57 PM
And you know this how?

Speaking of the regular season though, they did wax us pretty good on a back to back in March.....

And they went a whopping 36-30 on the season and only made the playoffs because of a coaching change. The Knicks started 18-24 last year and were going nowhere.

hoosierguy
09-30-2012, 04:04 PM
The media always hypes the teams with the superstars or that made a big move in the offseason. The teams that dont make much noise get overlooked and undervalued.

The Clippers and Sixers are not better than the Pacers. Indy should be at least #6. Boston had a mediocre regular season and caught a lucky break in the playoffs with Rose going down.

Dgreenwell3
09-30-2012, 04:29 PM
The media always hypes the teams with the superstars or that made a big move in the offseason. The teams that dont make much noise get overlooked and undervalued.

The Clippers and Sixers are not better than the Pacers. Indy should be at least #6. Boston had a mediocre regular season and caught a lucky break in the playoffs with Rose going down.

Honestly I would probably take the clippers (Blake Paul, and company) over our roster. They have a ton of talent...

PGisthefuture
09-30-2012, 05:04 PM
Honestly I would probably take the clippers (Blake Paul, and company) over our roster. They have a ton of talent...

Yeah, they had a lot of similar talent last year as well and I think our squad was better last year. The Clippers will be good, but it's too early to tell if that roster will live up to it's potential. They have Crawford who didn't fair too well in Portland last year. We all know Lamar Odom was just terrible last year. Matt Barnes has never been anything special imo. Grant Hill will be good for them. They basically added a bunch of small forwards and guards who can play small forward.

As for the Sixers, they should not be ahead of us by any means. They added Bynum and that's about it. They are relying on Turner to make a big improvement and I don't think it'll happen.

Also, I have a lot of doubts about the Nets. They added some decent pieces on paper I guess, but the biggest name was Joe Johnson and I don't think he automatically makes them a contender by any means. Imo the Nets will be anywhere from an 8th seed at worst, 5th seed at their complete best.

SkipperZ
09-30-2012, 07:30 PM
i think the #8 ranking is at least arguably fair. I think were better than the Clippers and the 76ers, but I can see how most others would disagree. The Clippers are obviously loaded with talent, and should be better this year with Crawford, a full season of Billups and Grant Hill addressing the weaknesses in their roster from last year.

And people forget that the 76ers had arguably at least as good a postseason as the Pacers did. They pretty handedly beat the 1 seed without Derrick Rose (we did the same against a worse Magic team without Dwight) and took the Celtics to 7, who came within a good 4th quarter of beating the Heat. And regardless of how much theyll miss Iggy, their improvements from last year are more apparent than ours (Nick Young, Dorrell Wright and the clear cut 2nd best center in the league) and their room for internal improvement is at least as great as ours (Evan Turner and Jrue Holiday mainly).

If we were objectively trying to look at the situation from the outside, I think opinions here would change. If the 76ers signed Mahimni, Green and DJ in teh offseason (and drafted Miles Plumlee), and we traded say Danny for Andrew Bynum, I guarantee you most people here would be laughing at the 76ers offseason acquisitions, probably saying they didnt get any better at all, while we were poised to win the East.

OlBlu
09-30-2012, 07:45 PM
The media always hypes the teams with the superstars or that made a big move in the offseason. The teams that dont make much noise get overlooked and undervalued.

The Clippers and Sixers are not better than the Pacers. Indy should be at least #6. Boston had a mediocre regular season and caught a lucky break in the playoffs with Rose going down.

Odd, I think the Clippers and Sixers ARE better than the Pacers. Boston played well in the playoffs. That is why superstars are so valuable....:cool: ...

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-30-2012, 07:47 PM
i think the #8 ranking is at least arguably fair. I think were better than the Clippers and the 76ers, but I can see how most others would disagree. The Clippers are obviously loaded with talent, and should be better this year with Crawford, a full season of Billups and Grant Hill addressing the weaknesses in their roster from last year.

And people forget that the 76ers had arguably at least as good a postseason as the Pacers did. They pretty handedly beat the 1 seed without Derrick Rose (we did the same against a worse Magic team without Dwight) and took the Celtics to 7, who came within a good 4th quarter of beating the Heat. And regardless of how much theyll miss Iggy, their improvements from last year are more apparent than ours (Nick Young, Dorrell Wright and the clear cut 2nd best center in the league) and their room for internal improvement is at least as great as ours (Evan Turner and Jrue Holiday mainly).

If we were objectively trying to look at the situation from the outside, I think opinions here would change. If the 76ers signed Mahimni, Green and DJ in teh offseason (and drafted Miles Plumlee), and we traded say Danny for Andrew Bynum, I guarantee you most people here would be laughing at the 76ers offseason acquisitions, probably saying they didnt get any better at all, while we were poised to win the East.

You can't rate a team that is entirely dependent on growth to be good, higher than a team that has already proved to be good and only need growth to improve. The 76ers lost 3 starters, and added Bynum. A guy that has shown great immaturity in the past.

The Pacers were better last year, and now get to grow. The 76ers lost the heart and soul of their team and added pieces that might work well together. Thats a big MIGHT

vnzla81
09-30-2012, 07:58 PM
You can't rate a team that is entirely dependent on growth to be good, higher than a team that has already proved to be good and only need growth to improve.


Huh?

vnzla81
09-30-2012, 08:00 PM
And the Clippers are not better than the Pacers? :lmao:

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-30-2012, 08:11 PM
Huh?

76ers need new players to step up, and Bynum to grow up. Where as the Pacers are already good and need those things to simply improve and become better.

SkipperZ
09-30-2012, 08:49 PM
You can't rate a team that is entirely dependent on growth to be good, higher than a team that has already proved to be good and only need growth to improve. The 76ers lost 3 starters, and added Bynum. A guy that has shown great immaturity in the past.

The Pacers were better last year, and now get to grow. The 76ers lost the heart and soul of their team and added pieces that might work well together. Thats a big MIGHT

The 76ers arent entirely dependent on growth to be good. They were already OK, and made large roster improvements from last year. They traded away a very good, but not superstar wing for a player who is quite clearly the 2nd best center in the entire league. They have a young stud in Evan Turner who plays the same position and does a lot of the same things Iggy could do well. They lost Lou Williams and replaced him with Nick Young and Jason Richardson (probably a sidegrade), and lost an aging but solid Elton Brand but now have a bigs rotation of Bynum, Hawes and Kwame.

But yea, if you want to talk about growth, they have 3 players that have just as much room for growth as our own Paul George in Bynum, Holiday and Turner. Plus, you say Bynum has been immature in the past, and he has, but you ignore the fact that he might also be just scratching the surface of his potential (he's a whole 1 year older than our rookie big Miles Plumlee and 1 year YOUNGER than our "young" bigs Roy Hibbert and Tyler Hansbrough).

And the Pacers need new guys to "step up" too, because if they don't, we have no bench, and we all know bench production is 50% of what did us in last year against the Heat (the other 50% being James/Wade).

This isnt a ranking of how good they were last year, its a ranking of how good one writer thinks they are now. Sure the Sixers have a lot of question marks, and you can disagree, with him (and like I said in my original post, I do disagree with him), but I think his ranking isnt far off. Its not like he put the Sixers 5 spots ahead of the Pacers.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-30-2012, 09:30 PM
The 76ers arent entirely dependent on growth to be good. They were already OK, and made large roster improvements from last year. They traded away a very good, but not superstar wing for a player who is quite clearly the 2nd best center in the entire league. They have a young stud in Evan Turner who plays the same position and does a lot of the same things Iggy could do well. They lost Lou Williams and replaced him with Nick Young and Jason Richardson (probably a sidegrade), and lost an aging but solid Elton Brand but now have a bigs rotation of Bynum, Hawes and Kwame.

But yea, if you want to talk about growth, they have 3 players that have just as much room for growth as our own Paul George in Bynum, Holiday and Turner. Plus, you say Bynum has been immature in the past, and he has, but you ignore the fact that he might also be just scratching the surface of his potential (he's a whole 1 year older than our rookie big Miles Plumlee and 1 year YOUNGER than our "young" bigs Roy Hibbert and Tyler Hansbrough).

And the Pacers need new guys to "step up" too, because if they don't, we have no bench, and we all know bench production is 50% of what did us in last year against the Heat (the other 50% being James/Wade).

This isnt a ranking of how good they were last year, its a ranking of how good one writer thinks they are now. Sure the Sixers have a lot of question marks, and you can disagree, with him (and like I said in my original post, I do disagree with him), but I think his ranking isnt far off. Its not like he put the Sixers 5 spots ahead of the Pacers.

This is a very different 76ers team from last year though. So much so, how good they were last year really has no bearing. The entire philosophy of that team has changed with the loss of Williams and AI.

So much in fact that this is going to be a team that is pretty bad if the guys don't step up and Bynum doesn't adjust well to his new role.

bballpacen
09-30-2012, 10:51 PM
Odd, I think the Clippers and Sixers ARE better than the Pacers. Boston played well in the playoffs. That is why superstars are so valuable....:cool: ...

Odd, to find yet another post where you have to be Debbie Downer... Dont know if you have ever said anything positive about the Pacers...

Peck
09-30-2012, 11:19 PM
And the Clippers are not better than the Pacers? :lmao:

Ok, I'll bite. Why are the Clippers so superior to the Pacers? Yes I get Chris Paul but after that I just don't see it.

vnzla81
10-01-2012, 12:18 AM
Ok, I'll bite. Why are the Clippers so superior to the Pacers? Yes I get Chris Paul but after that I just don't see it.

Blake Griffin? not only that but CP3 by himself should be enough to put the Clippers over the Pacers in my opinion, they also have a player in Butler that's not scrub, Jordan is also pretty good, I know many here hate Knick Young but the guy can score and go for 20+ points at any night.

They also added Lamar Odom, a guy that when he is in shape he is better than anything the Pacers have and I bet if he was a Pacers many here would be proclaiming him a "20/10 guy at least".

Peck
10-01-2012, 12:43 AM
Blake Griffin? not only that but CP3 by himself should be enough to put the Clippers over the Pacers in my opinion, they also have a player in Butler that's not scrub, Jordan is also pretty good, I know many here hate Knick Young but the guy can score and go for 20+ points at any night.

They also added Lamar Odom, a guy that when he is in shape he is better than anything the Pacers have and I bet if he was a Pacers many here would be proclaiming him a "20/10 guy at least".

I'll give you Chris Paul, without a doubt one of the top 3 point guards in the NBA & frankly you could make arguments for him or Williams or Rose to be # 1.

Yes Blake Griffin is a dynamic scorer but his defense is just not there. It's not bad mind you but it's not good either and frankly David West is the kind of player who is going to give him trouble (& yes vice versa I admit) because West doesn't rely on his athleticism.

Butler is a good defender & can hit an open shot but honestly he's nothing special and any of Granger, George or Green will be able to get theirs with no problem and Danny has shut him down in the past as well.

Nick Young is fine but I'll take Paul George. Lamar back in the day? Sure but this guy is a mental midget right now & frankly he is getting long in the tooth. Jordan needs to learn to play basketball without relying on his ability to jump.

Teams can take him out of a game if they just keep a body on him & frankly he just has no hope vs Roy.

Now on top of that we have George Hill who while is not a traditional point guard he does team up with Paul George to form a very dynamic defensive combo, somthing that honestly none of us talk enough about.

I guess we are also forgetting about Grant Hill and he will help their depth for sure.

But let's not forget that they have Del Negro as the head coach so that is a big minus right there.

Look I'm not saying they are bad but I am saying that they are not laughably better than us as you implied in fact I dispute that they are really that much better than us if they are better than us at all.

vnzla81
10-01-2012, 01:55 AM
Look I'm not saying they are bad but I am saying that they are not laughably better than us as you implied in fact I dispute that they are really that much better than us if they are better than us at all.

Yes they are that much better because they have two guys that are way better than anything the Pacers have, I know many here don't want to believe it or refuse to believe it but superstars always triumph over a bunch of decent players that play "team basketball", I also know that some people want to bring Detroit as an example but the fact is that that team had four all stars and one pretty good player in Prince so nope the Pacers are not like The Pistons either.

By the way I agree with you regarding Del Negro to me he is the only one holding that team back.

SkipperZ
10-01-2012, 02:06 AM
If I'm not mistaken the clips lost nick young but added jamal Crawford, Lamar Odom and grant hill. That plus maybe chauncey for an entire year and they should be better this year than last.

SkipperZ
10-01-2012, 02:12 AM
This is a very different 76ers team from last year though. So much so, how good they were last year really has no bearing. The entire philosophy of that team has changed with the loss of Williams and AI.

So much in fact that this is going to be a team that is pretty bad if the guys don't step up and Bynum doesn't adjust well to his new role.

And if Bynum does adjust and new guys step up, then they'll be a beast of a team, and quite possibly better than Indiana. The bottom line is the sixers put themselves in a position to improve signifanctly better than the pacers did, and it's not unreasonable to think they may be better than Indiana this year. And that's all the power rankings are, one person thinking they will be slightly better this year

Peck
10-01-2012, 03:10 AM
Yes they are that much better because they have two guys that are way better than anything the Pacers have, I know many here don't want to believe it or refuse to believe it but superstars always triumph over a bunch of decent players that play "team basketball", I also know that some people want to bring Detroit as an example but the fact is that that team had four all stars and one pretty good player in Prince so nope the Pacers are not like The Pistons either.

By the way I agree with you regarding Del Negro to me he is the only one holding that team back.

Well first of all your not dealing "many here" your dealing with me. I agree with you, I said after the Miami series that the Heat series was so horrid for me because it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that two superstars can beat a group of really good 5 players. I hate it, I hate it so much that I questioned why I watched the NBA all summer long but it is what it is.

However we're not talking LeBron & Wade here. We are talking Chris Paul (superstar) I will give you that & won't bat an eye.

However I'm sorry but Blake Griffin is a superstar because of his leaping & dunking ability. He does not take over on the defensive end and frankly for as athletic & strong as he is I think he can rebound better. So to me he is a star player but I will not put him on the level of Bryant, Wade, James, Paul, Williams, etc.

So, yes I will now revert to the Indiana way and say that while I think Paul is great, he is not enough to overcome our team. A team of 5 really good players can beat a team of one superstar & another star player.

You do agree with me that it took superhuman efforts from Wade & James in particular for the Heat to beat us last season. I don't think Paul, as good as he is, can take over the game like either of them can.

HibbyGo
10-01-2012, 04:28 AM
Well first of all your not dealing "many here" your dealing with me. I agree with you, I said after the Miami series that the Heat series was so horrid for me because it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that two superstars can beat a group of really good 5 players. I hate it, I hate it so much that I questioned why I watched the NBA all summer long but it is what it is.

However we're not talking LeBron & Wade here. We are talking Chris Paul (superstar) I will give you that & won't bat an eye.

However I'm sorry but Blake Griffin is a superstar because of his leaping & dunking ability. He does not take over on the defensive end and frankly for as athletic & strong as he is I think he can rebound better. So to me he is a star player but I will not put him on the level of Bryant, Wade, James, Paul, Williams, etc.

So, yes I will now revert to the Indiana way and say that while I think Paul is great, he is not enough to overcome our team. A team of 5 really good players can beat a team of one superstar & another star player.

You do agree with me that it took superhuman efforts from Wade & James in particular for the Heat to beat us last season. I don't think Paul, as good as he is, can take over the game like either of them can.
Here a thing basketball is game of matchups just because we did well against one team doesn't mean we'll do good against another team. The Clippers have better depth then miami and can be just as explosive if not more then the heat. They have such good depth that even when CP3 goes rest they can bring in Eric Bledsoe who can start on most teams that don't have an elite PG all that along with all the new players/vets they brought adds to their arguable one of the best teams in depth in the entire league.
As for Blake Griffen we all know he is raw but he had one of the best rookie years in nba history and will only improve more and more. He would most likely be the best offensive player on our team. So to sum it up why they're ranked higher then us it's because: They have great depth, Blake Griffen who's an explosive offensive player(But is currently a hole in defense like you said and I agree but he's raw talent), and last but not least they have a Legit Superstar and the best point guard in the league. (Rose is injured to expect him to be better than cp3 would be speculating and Williams could never be argued over a healthy rose or cp3 and I disagree he's possible number 1 PG unless you believe the hilarious overrating by ESPN on him. No one actually thinks he's ranked 7 in the league and watching him play te past few seasons he has no case over those 2 but has some good aspects in his game but not enough over Rose and CP3). That and probably because they play in a much more competitive conference then we do. As for the bolded part in your post I also realized that after we lost and I was hysterical when thinking about it. I came to realize that the sport exposes an athletes ability to show how much better they are as individuals then the norm. Basketball as a sport is number 1 in terms of how much of an impact 1 player can have in a game. Superstars/Playmakers/Franchise players can carry you to playoffs because it's a game that allows you to showcase your talent with just 5 players in the court. Sports like soccer and football alow someplayers to take a day off or not step up but still win because of so many players in the field. In basketball everyone on the court needs to be on top of their game. Watching LeBrons game 6 against the celtics with calm and no pressure now that it wasn't against us made me realize how great he is. It's like boston played to their best level and will at their house but the plain truth is the LeBron is by far the best player on the court and if he wants it theirs nothing you can do about it despite it just being 1 player. He's not just the best player in that game, he has potential to be the greatest or at least play at the Greatest Level of play in the history on the NBA.

I'm also not saying we can't beat the clippers or Heat. NBA is all about matchups and even though we have no superstar I believe we are better then both of them as a TEAM that plays like one. We just have to prove it and all our players have to step up.

First post lol but I've been lurking with no account for a while but I'm especially excited for this season. Go Pacers.

Mad-Mad-Mario
10-01-2012, 08:52 AM
And if Bynum does adjust and new guys step up, then they'll be a beast of a team, and quite possibly better than Indiana. The bottom line is the sixers put themselves in a position to improve signifanctly better than the pacers did, and it's not unreasonable to think they may be better than Indiana this year. And that's all the power rankings are, one person thinking they will be slightly better this year

Even if everything works out they still arent better. And since when did everybody work out like they were supposed to in NBA

vnzla81
10-01-2012, 09:00 AM
Well first of all your not dealing "many here" your dealing with me. I agree with you, I said after the Miami series that the Heat series was so horrid for me because it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that two superstars can beat a group of really good 5 players. I hate it, I hate it so much that I questioned why I watched the NBA all summer long but it is what it is.

However we're not talking LeBron & Wade here. We are talking Chris Paul (superstar) I will give you that & won't bat an eye.

However I'm sorry but Blake Griffin is a superstar because of his leaping & dunking ability. He does not take over on the defensive end and frankly for as athletic & strong as he is I think he can rebound better. So to me he is a star player but I will not put him on the level of Bryant, Wade, James, Paul, Williams, etc.

So, yes I will now revert to the Indiana way and say that while I think Paul is great, he is not enough to overcome our team. A team of 5 really good players can beat a team of one superstar & another star player.

You do agree with me that it took superhuman efforts from Wade & James in particular for the Heat to beat us last season. I don't think Paul, as good as he is, can take over the game like either of them can.

I've seen CP3 take over games and win pretty much by himself, I think you are under rating him, the same with Blake Griffin, yes his defense is not there yet but on offense the guy is amazing, nobody can stop him one on one, he is a superstar in my opinion.

Trader Joe
10-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Just a random thought, we focus a lot on Roy's scoring (or what some see as lack there of) in the playoffs, but I don't think enough focus is paid to his defense which was elite and dominant in the playoffs. Just because LBJ and Wade successfully changed their games and added the runner to their arsenal does not dampen Roy's defensive impact, it just speaks to how good LBJ and Wade were. Roy was maybe the best post defender in the entire playoffs last year which says a lot. He thoroughly dominated that Orlando series, and was just as good in the Miami series. Miami just had enough talent to adapt to him and specifically they took advantage when he was on the bench. Which I think was our biggest need, a back up big who can at least some what fill Roy's shoes defensively, my hope and I'm guessing the Pacers' brass as well, is that Mahinmi can do that. If he can then a solid post defender off the bench is worth every bit of Darren Collison and Dahntay Jones and that was not nearly as bad a move as some made it out to be. Roy's defensive presence was massive and the drop off from him to Amunson on that end of the court was just as big, LBJ and Wade attacked relentlessly whenever Roy went out. Mahinmi hopefully bridges that gap a little.

Point being, if you can average 12 and 10 and be the best defensive player on the floor, then that is a pretty big deal right there.

OlBlu
10-01-2012, 02:51 PM
Just a random thought, we focus a lot on Roy's scoring (or what some see as lack there of) in the playoffs, but I don't think enough focus is paid to his defense which was elite and dominant in the playoffs. Just because LBJ and Wade successfully changed their games and added the runner to their arsenal does not dampen Roy's defensive impact, it just speaks to how good LBJ and Wade were. Roy was maybe the best post defender in the entire playoffs last year which says a lot. He thoroughly dominated that Orlando series, and was just as good in the Miami series. Miami just had enough talent to adapt to him and specifically they took advantage when he was on the bench. Which I think was our biggest need, a back up big who can at least some what fill Roy's shoes defensively, my hope and I'm guessing the Pacers' brass as well, is that Mahinmi can do that. If he can then a solid post defender off the bench is worth every bit of Darren Collison and Dahntay Jones and that was not nearly as bad a move as some made it out to be. Roy's defensive presence was massive and the drop off from him to Amunson on that end of the court was just as big, LBJ and Wade attacked relentlessly whenever Roy went out. Mahinmi hopefully bridges that gap a little.

Good analysis and now Philly has an elite center. The East is not as easy as some folks think.....:cool: ...

Trader Joe
10-01-2012, 02:53 PM
Blake Griffin? not only that but CP3 by himself should be enough to put the Clippers over the Pacers in my opinion, they also have a player in Butler that's not scrub, Jordan is also pretty good, I know many here hate Knick Young but the guy can score and go for 20+ points at any night.

They also added Lamar Odom, a guy that when he is in shape he is better than anything the Pacers have and I bet if he was a Pacers many here would be proclaiming him a "20/10 guy at least".

Lamar Odom better than anyone on the Pacers? Nope.

Trader Joe
10-01-2012, 02:56 PM
Good analysis and now Philly has an elite center. The East is not as easy as some folks think.....:cool: ...


Bynum is an enigma. Let's give him 30+ games of being the focal point of a defense every night before we say he is truly elite. Not syaing he won't be, but the guy has been baby sat by Kobe and Pau his entire career.

OlBlu
10-01-2012, 02:58 PM
Odd, to find yet another post where you have to be Debbie Downer... Dont know if you have ever said anything positive about the Pacers...

Of course I have. I love Hibbert's game and the man's work ethic. I like what I see of Paul George but he needs to keep working. West is the real deal at PF and I love Hill. The weak link is Granger but we have locked ourselves into him for life so that won't change but that is the only problem with this team that I see other than there are no superstars and that is what it takes to win in the playoffs. They will be a good regular season team probably around 48-34 and second in our division to the Bulls. I see them as a solid playoff team but not among the top two or three in the east like some others here..... We needed to replace Granger with a star in the off season to move that high in my opinion...... You can always block my posts if they bother you so much. No need to get your blood pressure up......:cool: ... By the way, I am almost as much fun with politics and religion.....

Trader Joe
10-01-2012, 02:59 PM
How have we locked ourselves into Granger for life? His contract is almost up.

Nuntius
10-01-2012, 03:13 PM
Just start the regular season already...

ReginaldWayne
10-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Blake Griffin? not only that but CP3 by himself should be enough to put the Clippers over the Pacers in my opinion, they also have a player in Butler that's not scrub, Jordan is also pretty good, I know many here hate Knick Young but the guy can score and go for 20+ points at any night.

They also added Lamar Odom, a guy that when he is in shape he is better than anything the Pacers have and I bet if he was a Pacers many here would be proclaiming him a "20/10 guy at least".

Nick Young plays for philly.

vnzla81
10-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Lamar Odom better than anyone on the Pacers? Nope.

When healthy and in shape he is better than anybody on the Pacers and I probably give the edge to Roy because he is a Center.

Lance George
10-01-2012, 03:40 PM
Prime West and prime Granger were both arguably better than prime Lamar Odom, and Hibbert and Paul George both have the potential to eclipse his prime in due time. In fact, Big Roy has already surpassed Odom's number of All-Star game appearances.

ECKrueger
10-01-2012, 03:49 PM
When healthy and in shape he is better than anybody on the Pacers and I probably give the edge to Roy because he is a Center.

How? In his prime, perhaps you could argue that. Not now though, not now. LA > us i could possible see, but Odom is no where near Roy, or several other Pacers at this point.

Eleazar
10-01-2012, 03:57 PM
Odom was a good player but he has always been a role player. He might have been the best role player in the league but still just a role player. The last time he was better than Granger, Granger was a second year player.

OlBlu
10-01-2012, 04:08 PM
Prime West and prime Granger were both arguably better than prime Lamar Odom, and Hibbert and Paul George both have the potential to eclipse his prime in due time. In fact, Big Roy has already surpassed Odom's number of All-Star game appearances.

Danny Granger never had a day in his life including right now when he was better than Odom. West is a completely different kind of player but he isn't as good as Odom was. I would take Roy over Odom......:cool: ...

OlBlu
10-01-2012, 04:09 PM
How have we locked ourselves into Granger for life? His contract is almost up.

I meant that he was beyond the point of being an asset in a trade. I think we will resign Granger for a lower amount and keep him for his career. I wish we would not do that but I think we will......:cool: ...

Trader Joe
10-01-2012, 04:14 PM
I meant that he was beyond the point of being an asset in a trade. I think we will resign Granger for a lower amount and keep him for his career. I wish we would not do that but I think we will......:cool: ...

I dunno, I could see Danny being an asset at the deadline this year depending on Paul's progression.

Hoop
10-01-2012, 04:40 PM
I don't see Philly better than us at all. Bynum is a big question mark for me, his attitude, his work ethic and health. Doug Collins' can also be a hard guy to play for. When does Bynum start pouting, 1st month, 2nd month?

I'm happy we have Hibbert, less upside maybe, but more reliable.

I don't have a link, read on RealGM, Bynum is already out for 3 weeks with a bone bruise.

Lance George
10-01-2012, 04:47 PM
Danny Granger never had a day in his life including right now when he was better than Odom. West is a completely different kind of player but he isn't as good as Odom was. I would take Roy over Odom......:cool: ...

The best season (prime) of each player. I'll let the data speak for itself. :cool:

http://oi49.tinypic.com/mwfwd5.jpg (http://bkref.com/tiny/uwrnz)

Ace E.Anderson
10-01-2012, 04:56 PM
How? In his prime, perhaps you could argue that. Not now though, not now. LA > us i could possible see, but Odom is no where near Roy, or several other Pacers at this point.

If you're talking from a pure basketball TALENT standpoint, Odom WAS one of the most talented players throughout most of his career. Not many 6'10 guys that can dribble/pass like a guard, rebound like a center, and score efficiently from the wing or from the post.

It's always come down to concentration, attitude, and conditioning with Odom.

OlBlu
10-01-2012, 05:05 PM
The best season (prime) of each player. I'll let the data speak for itself. :cool:

http://oi49.tinypic.com/mwfwd5.jpg (http://bkref.com/tiny/uwrnz)

The data doesn't mean crap. Odom was playing on a team winning championships with other superstars. Granger was a shoot only player and West was a very good player but not in Odom's class.....:cool: ...

Peck
10-01-2012, 05:09 PM
The data doesn't mean crap. Odom was playing on a team winning championships with other superstars. Granger was a shoot only player and West was a very good player but not in Odom's class.....:cool: ...

I didn't realize that Odom was a member of the Pistons in the 03/04 season. I'm sure you must have meant some other time like when he wasn't playing for the Heat.

OlBlu
10-01-2012, 05:14 PM
I didn't realize that Odom was a member of the Pistons in the 03/04 season. I'm sure you must have meant some other time like when he wasn't playing for the Heat.

I was talking about his time with the Lakers. He was the biggest matchup problem in the entire NBA....:cool: ...

Lance George
10-01-2012, 05:43 PM
The data doesn't mean crap.

The data doesn't mean crap when it doesn't support your bald assertion. Got it. ;)


Odom was playing on a team winning championships with other superstars. Granger was a shoot only player and West was a very good player but not in Odom's class.....:cool: ...

The season I listed for Odom was 2003-04, his lone season in Miami, where he won 42 games while playing next to a rookie Dwyane Wade. So, no, your argument doesn't work. In fact, the majority of Odom's career has been spent on mediocre-at-best teams, including one of the worst three-year periods in Lakers' history (2004-07, 121-125). It wasn't until the Lakers traded for Pau Gasol, and Odom was relegated to a mere sixth man, that he finally become a world champion.

J7F
10-01-2012, 05:52 PM
The data doesn't mean crap when it doesn't support your bald assertion. Got it. ;)



The season I listed for Odom was 2003-04, his lone season in Miami, where he won 42 games while playing next to a rookie Dwyane Wade. So, no, your argument doesn't work. In fact, the majority of Odom's career has been spent on mediocre-at-best teams, including one of the worst three-year periods in Lakers' history (2004-07, 121-125). It wasn't until the Lakers traded for Pau Gasol, and Odom was relegated to a mere sixth man, that he finally become a world champion.

Data doesn't mean squat to Blu in any case... I doubt he's ever used stats to back up any of his claims... He's all personal opinion... Which is fine... But it's probably a huge reason that people disagree with so much of what he writes...

Edit: did you mean to write "BALD assertion" or was that a Freudian slip on who you were commenting to? :)

Peck
10-01-2012, 05:54 PM
I was talking about his time with the Lakers. He was the biggest matchup problem in the entire NBA....:cool: ...

Wait, did you just say he was the biggest matchup problem in the entire NBA? Ok, now your just pulling out leg right? I mean there is no way you just said that he was THE biggest matchup problem in the NBA. For some reason I have a hard time remembering when we played the Lakers I ever thought to myself "man how are we going to match up to Lamar Odom".

Did he cause matchup problems? Sure.

But more than LeBron, Garnett or even Duncan back then? No.

Pacemaker
10-01-2012, 06:10 PM
What you can do, though, is leapfrog everyone else in Power Rankdom apart from the defending champs when you trade for Dwight and Nash without surrendering Pau, which still hasn't fully sunk in even after writing that sentence dozens of times.

This still baffles me !

GO PACERS!

ilive4sports
10-01-2012, 06:30 PM
I was talking about his time with the Lakers. He was the biggest matchup problem in the entire NBA....:cool: ...
EL OH EL

Ever since Lebron James entered the NBA he has been the biggest match up problem in the entire NBA.

J7F
10-01-2012, 06:30 PM
This still baffles me !

GO PACERS!

And then consider that they also traded for Pau without giving up anything of significant value (at least at that point in time)...

CableKC
10-01-2012, 06:45 PM
I meant that he was beyond the point of being an asset in a trade. I think we will resign Granger for a lower amount and keep him for his career. I wish we would not do that but I think we will......:cool: ...
I don't think that his trade value is that diminished....it's more what the FO thinks he's worth. At this point.....if Granger could net a "Solid Prospect ( or Player on a Rookie Salary that can contribute ) +1st round Pick+Expiring Contract" offer ( which I think he can )......I think that Granger could easily be traded before the 2013-2014 trade deadline. Granger isn't going to net us a great Top Tier Player....but I think that the FO will move him since we will need to re-sign PG....who I can guarantee will receive some $10 to 11+ mil per year contract offer ( basically what Batum got on the FA Market ) when he becomes a RFA in the 2014-2015 offseason.

Keep in mind that by the time that his contract comes off the books.....Granger will be 31 when his contract expires in 2013-2014. Given that this will be Granger's last huge contract....he's going to want the biggest long-term 4-year contract ( or a 5 year extension from the Pacers ) that he could get.

vnzla81
10-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Wait, did you just say he was the biggest matchup problem in the entire NBA? Ok, now your just pulling out leg right? I mean there is no way you just said that he was THE biggest matchup problem in the NBA. For some reason I have a hard time remembering when we played the Lakers I ever thought to myself "man how are we going to match up to Lamar Odom".

Did he cause matchup problems? Sure.

But more than LeBron, Garnett or even Duncan back then? No.

I don't think he is number one on the biggest matchup issues but he is top ten for sure.

Peck
10-01-2012, 06:59 PM
I don't think he is number one on the biggest matchup issues but he is top ten for sure.

Still? Really?

vnzla81
10-01-2012, 07:00 PM
I don't think that his trade value is that diminished....it's more what the FO thinks he's worth. At this point.....if Granger could net a "Solid Prospect ( or Player on a Rookie Salary that can contribute ) +1st round Pick+Expiring Contract" offer ( which I think he can )......I think that Granger could easily be traded before the 2013-2014 trade deadline. Granger isn't going to net us a great Top Tier Player....but I think that the FO will move him since we will need to re-sign PG....who I can guarantee will receive some $10 to 11+ mil per year contract offer ( basically what Batum got on the FA Market ) when he becomes a RFA in the 2014-2015 offseason.

Danny's value is on the toilet nobody is going to trade for a guy with knee issues that's making that much, not only that but he didn't show he deserves what he is making last year.

Peck
10-01-2012, 07:01 PM
BTW for all of the Philly is going to be much better than us talk Bynun is now out at least 3 weeks with a knee bruise.

They did sign Mikki Moor though so theres that.

vnzla81
10-01-2012, 07:01 PM
Still? Really?

If he is healthy and plays the PF position? Yes.

Peck
10-01-2012, 07:02 PM
If he is healthy and plays the PF position? Yes.

You a lot of people said the same thing about Troy Murphy as well. ;)

rexnom
10-01-2012, 08:01 PM
BTW for all of the Philly is going to be much better than us talk Bynun is now out at least 3 weeks with a knee bruise.

They did sign Mikki Moor though so theres that.
Mikki Moore! He's still in the league?! Wow!

Trader Joe
10-01-2012, 08:29 PM
I was talking about his time with the Lakers. He was the biggest matchup problem in the entire NBA....:cool: ...

Well, jeez, if that's not the over statement of the century. I wasn't aware that Lamar Odom had aliases such as Shaquille O'Neal and Lebron James.

Trader Joe
10-01-2012, 08:30 PM
I don't think he is number one on the biggest matchup issues but he is top ten for sure.

The guy wasn't even in the top 3 biggest matchup problems on his own team.

cdash
10-01-2012, 08:56 PM
There is some seriously silly talk in this thread.

QuickRelease
10-01-2012, 09:34 PM
Lamar Odom better than anyone on the Pacers? Nope.I dunno about this. The Lamar Odom from Dallas, absolutely agree. His head was in the sand the entire season. But when someone finds a way to motivate him, he's quite a bit better than a few players on this roster. As far as the back to back losses to New York, they were extremely motivated to shove Danny's comments back down his throat about the Knicks being "2 very winnable games" on the schedule. Add to that the double-decker crapwich Danny then turned around and laid in both games. I think the Clippers are really, really good. Not so much because CP3 takes over with his scoring. CP3 makes everybody on the floor dangerous, and then he can take over with his scoring.

BillS
10-02-2012, 09:51 AM
My frustration with all of this "xxxxx player is better than anyone on the Pacers" is it tends to be qualified with "in his prime, playing healthy, with a good attitude, and in the right position", while the Pacers are assumed to be playing exactly as they are right now.

Why do 29 teams get a pass on injuries, attitude, and mismanagement while every Pacer player is considered to be currently at the peak of his career with no room for improvement and no physical, concentration, or positional battle issues to overcome?

Hicks
10-02-2012, 10:58 AM
My frustration with all of this "xxxxx player is better than anyone on the Pacers" is it tends to be qualified with "in his prime, playing healthy, with a good attitude, and in the right position", while the Pacers are assumed to be playing exactly as they are right now.

Why do 29 teams get a pass on injuries, attitude, and mismanagement while every Pacer player is considered to be currently at the peak of his career with no room for improvement and no physical, concentration, or positional battle issues to overcome?

That, and the part where we're a team built on spead-out talent versus condensed, top-heavy talent anyway. Of course the best players on other teams are typically going to be better, because most teams are more top-heavy than us. We have a lot of good to very good players, other teams have a few great players.

pacergod2
10-02-2012, 11:39 AM
I can't believe there isn't Brooklyn or NY in the top ten. That baffles me coming from ESPN.

I don't really give a **** what this article rates us as. I think we are about a top 8 team either way though. I'm sure NY or Brooklyn will come out hot and make their way into the top five of the power rankings at some point. We will see other teams creeping up there as the season goes along. Some teams will drop due to injuries. It's just the nature of the beast.

These kind of power rankings are "what have you done for me lately". The Niners were the best team one week, dropped down 10 spots because they lost to Minnesota, and then they beat the Jets in such an embarassing manner they'll be atop the rankings this week. It's such an overreactive sports media we deal with. Minnesota just matches up really well with SF with a football philosophy and gameplan that would keep that game close. That's why they also went to OT with Indy and Jacksonville. These power rankings are stupid, especially when it comes from ESPN.

As for the Pacers, we better get used to the media overlooking our off-season moves because we are going to have a static payroll for a very long time. We aren't going to do much that would alter the future of our franchise in a major way for the next several off-seasons. So get used to it boys and girls.

I'm not even going to discuss Lamar Odom. As for the Clippers however, that team's front court cannot hit a jump shot to save their lives. Teams have started giving Blake the jump shot and protecting against the drive. When he does go to the rack, he is getting fouled at a ridiculous pace, because at 50% shooting from the free throw line, teams will just beat you up all night. They are way too easy of a team to guard. They have two players who are very difficult to guard, which shows me that they need more versatility and secondary ball movement. This is the same thing that plagues the Knicks. If these teams learned how to defend and improve ball movement, we would be talking about them as true contenders. But they don't, so we aren't. The Pacers biggest need is to improve ball movement as well, and until we do that, we will subject ourselves to mediocrity at the hands of "superstars" having more talent. When the sum of parts is greater than the sum of each individual, they call that synergy and that is one of the greatest forces of mankind.

vnzla81
10-02-2012, 12:09 PM
My frustration with all of this "xxxxx player is better than anyone on the Pacers" is it tends to be qualified with "in his prime, playing healthy, with a good attitude, and in the right position", while the Pacers are assumed to be playing exactly as they are right now.

Why do 29 teams get a pass on injuries, attitude, and mismanagement while every Pacer player is considered to be currently at the peak of his career with no room for improvement and no physical, concentration, or positional battle issues to overcome?

There is not a bigger pass than the one of people looking the other way regarding Danny's injuries, Bynum get's the same treatment as Danny in his knee and "the Sixers sucks now", EJ is feeling some pain in his knee and is another "OMG".

But the Pacers second best player gets injured and we don't know how long is going to take for him to be 100% but is OK because the Pacers have Green to replace him so "they are at least top 3 in the east".

By the way once again I'm sounding as a Pacers hater but the thing is that I'm as frustrated as you are because it looks to me like many here expect the Pacers youngsters to grow and become stars, they expect Danny to be the Danny of years ago, they expect West to look younger and play D and at the same time they expect other teams stars to get hurt and other teams youngsters to stop growing.

By the way if Lamar Odom had signed with the Pacers instead of the Clippers a huge percentage of people here would be proclaiming him "the next coming" but as always people around here tend to think that players in other teams are garbage until they wear a Pacers uniform.

And nope I don't think the Pacers players are garbage either.

BillS
10-02-2012, 12:16 PM
By the way once again I'm sounding as a Pacers hater but the thing is that I'm as frustrated as you are because it looks to me like many here expect the Pacers youngsters to grow and become stars, they expect Danny to be the Danny of years ago, they expect West to look younger and play D and at the same time they expect other teams stars to get hurt and other teams youngsters to stop growing.

I guess I'd reply by saying that fans of a team are more likely to come down on the side of optimism when it comes to their own players. However, to argue against that you can't use the highest expectation for the opponent and the lowest expectation of the Pacers player. It is valid to point out the difference in expectations, but to say when challenged that thus-and-so, if healthy, is better - without comparing him to the Pacers player when healthy - is a problem.

That said, while I think you have a point with Bynum's procedure, Gordon's injury history would make an infected hangnail something to be worried about or be glad we didn't sell the cow for those magic beans. There are reasons to react more strongly to injury reports for players who have missed significant portions of their careers due to injuries.

Eleazar
10-02-2012, 12:29 PM
There is not a bigger pass than the one of people looking the other way regarding Danny's injuries, Bynum get's the same treatment as Danny in his knee and "the Sixers sucks now", EJ is feeling some pain in his knee and is another "OMG".

By the way if Lamar Odom had signed with the Pacers instead of the Clippers a huge percentage of people here would be proclaiming him "the next coming" but as always people around here tend to think that players in other teams are garbage until they wear a Pacers uniform.

You are comparing a guy who misses on average 6.8 games per season to a guy who misses 23.7 games per season. History suggests that Danny is most likely to be just fine, while Bynum isn't.

Maybe you would have and OlBlu would have, but no one else would have. Yeah sure people would be excited because for the majority of his career he has been a good player. No one would expect him to come in here and be anywhere close to the best player.

vnzla81
10-02-2012, 12:32 PM
[QUOTE=BillS;1505455]I guess I'd reply by saying that fans of a team are more likely to come down on the side of optimism when it comes to their own players. However, to argue against that you can't use the highest expectation for the opponent and the lowest expectation of the Pacers player. It is valid to point out the difference in expectations, but to say when challenged that thus-and-so, if healthy, is better - without comparing him to the Pacers player when healthy - is a problem.

Anytime I compare players from other teams with the Pacers players I compare them when healthy.


That said, while I think you have a point with Bynum's procedure, Gordon's injury history would make an infected hangnail something to be worried about or be glad we didn't sell the cow for those magic beans. There are reasons to react more strongly to injury reports for players who have missed significant portions of their careers due to injuries.

All I got to see from both reports(Bynum and EJ) is that both teams are taking precautionary measurements there is not reason for either team to force it and that includes the Pacers with Danny.

Nuntius
10-02-2012, 05:39 PM
but as always people around here tend to think that players in other teams are garbage until they wear a Pacers uniform.


Or it's the other way around and some people always tend to think that players in other teams are awesome until they wear a Pacers uniform ;)

Ace E.Anderson
10-02-2012, 06:48 PM
You are comparing a guy who misses on average 6.8 games per season to a guy who misses 23.7 games per season. History suggests that Danny is most likely to be just fine, while Bynum isn't.

Maybe you would have and OlBlu would have, but no one else would have. Yeah sure people would be excited because for the majority of his career he has been a good player. No one would expect him to come in here and be anywhere close to the best player.

I wouldn't even expect him to be a starter on this team, let alone the second coming.

PacersForever
10-02-2012, 07:05 PM
They may cancel each other out by talent, but if Augustin is going to be a distributor contrasting to Collison's scorer role, then I think that could have a greater impact on the rest of the bench than Collison did.

There is not much use for a facilitator in the second unit. The first unit is one one that needs it.

Hicks
10-02-2012, 07:07 PM
There's always use for a facilitating PG.

Mad-Mad-Mario
10-02-2012, 07:37 PM
There is not much use for a facilitator in the second unit. The first unit is one one that needs it.

Unless that second unit has people who can't score for themselves. Such as Green and Mahinmi

Ace E.Anderson
10-02-2012, 07:50 PM
Unless that second unit has people who can't score for themselves. Such as Green and Mahinmi

Green? I think Green will be getting shots for himself just fine. That's what he was brought in for, scoring off the bench.

But I agree, DJ fits on the second unit. He could have a Harden type effect on the team as a spark off the bench, only he'll be a facilitator as opposed to a big scorer.

Mad-Mad-Mario
10-02-2012, 07:59 PM
Green? I think Green will be getting shots for himself just fine. That's what he was brought in for, scoring off the bench.

But I agree, DJ fits on the second unit. He could have a Harden type effect on the team as a spark off the bench, only he'll be a facilitator as opposed to a big scorer.

Yeah Green is a scorer, but he doesn't get shots for himself very easily. He needs a distributor.