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View Full Version : Our two starting guards and offensive firepower



McKeyFan
09-27-2012, 07:56 AM
How have we solved last year's biggest problem of not having offensive flow and firepower because we could not get the ball to our solid scorers in the post? We haven't.

This year we will find the same problem as last year in the playoffs--no one can get Roy the ball and West gets it way out on the peremiter. Hill was better than Collison, but Hill still is weak in this area.

So, for me, the most intriguing development for next year will be to see how we find some offensive power and lubrication, particularly in the back court. Our problem now, it seems to me, is our two best defensive players play together (Hill, George) and two offensive-minded players play together (DJ, Lance). We may need to do some mixing and matching all year long until we find just the right mix. This could also be solved by Hill suddenly improving in distribution or PG suddenly improving his playmaking ability and offensive production. I am not holding my breath just yet.

So, come playoff time, the following are all possible options:

1. Hill
2. PG (current)

1. DJ
2. Hill

1. Hill
2. Lance (or vice versa)


I don't see Hill being benched at the end of games because of his veteran savvy, great defense, and clutch play. PG still could find the bench, because he is young and still makes strange mistakes. But what is more likely is that PG gets moved down to the three and Granger plays 4, but that puts either Hibbs or West on the bench, so that's doubtful as well.

But, my point, is that unless we see significant improvement from our two starting guards, they won't have what we need offensively to make things happen in big games.

Lance developing to such a point is still a long shot. DJ Augustin providing the much needed distribution is more of a possibility, but what we would give up on the defensive end would be significant. He would have to be a truly impressive improvement to find himself playing down the stretch.

But that's what I will be watching. I'm glad Barbosa and Dahntay are gone (both of whom I liked), because neither of them have even the potential to help with this problem. Lance and DJA do, but it's a long shot.

Speed
09-27-2012, 08:28 AM
I agree with it being one of the most important things. I rewatched the Miami series over the summer and found that Paul George was a huge part of what they were trying to do, the link to almost everything. It could be coming off the pick and roll or the post entry pass. Moreso than Danny, by far imo, in that series. Danny often was relagated to the BRush role almost, standing and waiting. Paul was uneven, understandably, being guarded by DWade. It goes back to what I alway think about Paul, he can and does do everything pretty well, just not consistently or as cleanly as he could/should. I think if he's matured and improved he's right there in being a lynch pin in making it all work much, much better. Vogel has the foresight to put him in that position last year and hopefully we see results this year. Better reads, tighter handles, more of the ability to take on that responsibility that its his role to be a main cog. Is it scoring? Yep, but not just that. It's making the whole greater than the sum of its parts. I think he will improve this year, how much will see if its an answer to your OP.

Geroge Hill is the best defensive point guard they've had since well, I really don't know who, Earl Watson maybe.... It's time to recognize this and what value this has to the team concept. It's easy to forget how poorly DC played the Pick and Roll in the recent past. So, I like how they look coming out of the gate with his length and athleticism to not be at a crazy disadvantage in that regard from the opening tip. Also, George Hill can score. The biggest challenge for George Hill is to now be a point guard, the straw that stirs the drink, like Mark Jackson would say. It's a completely different mentality. In San Antonio Pops wanted him to be the scorer he was coming out of college and show that aggressiveness coming off the bench for the Spurs. The Pacers need him to now run the team. It's a different skillset, but moreso a completely different mindset. He has to know his mismatches in a game, but also on a given play. He has to hvae his finger on the pulse of the team and know when a guy has it going or might not be feeling engaged and bring him into the fold. It's a tough thing to teach, its a tougher thing to understand. Some players are just this way by nature, CP3, Kyrie Irving, Mark Jackson, etc. It's more about elevating your team than it is about stats or specifically assists per game. In fact, I'm not sure how his assists can get over 7 or so a game, just by the low post nature of what Frank runs. Frank has this one right too, he told George Hill to focus on being a point guard this summer. That's what they need, someone at the wheel, both literally and in a bunker mentality leadership way. Will George Hill provide more scoring, maybe, but it's more important that he elevates the team as a Point Guard in the old school way, then the overall offense will fall into place.

Augustine is a shot maker and actually can run a fast break intuitively. Both big needs for a team missing both. Playoff games you see offensive schemes fall apart. One was to score easily is in transition, Augustine can bring this. Something DC or anyone on last years squad honestly could NOT do. He is also not afraid to take a shot with the clock running down. Often, in playoffs, the Point Guard gets stuck with the ball in his hands as the shot clock runs down. Augustine can get a decent shot off in this situation, in spite of his poor FG% last year.

Gerald Greene can guard other wings well, run the break, and hit the spot up jumper. All 3 are exactly things needed from your first wing off the bench. I feel like he has 'potential' to even get better than last year, even though his path has been unique to the NBA. If Danny has lingering knee problems, which he does seem to, GG could have a huge impact.

As for Lance, I'm not sure what he brings. His handles and court vision are truely remarkable, imo. Its getting that very good skill harnessed while being consistent with everything else, aka defense, shooting, turnovers.

Overall, I like this group alot, mainly because of they are more complete players than the Pacers have had in recent past. Dunleavy, Dahntay, DC, Barbosa, all had one or two things they were good at and then a few other things they were bad at. This group still has some discernably very good skills, but not the glaring weaknesses. It's discouraging thinking about a game in the past, knowing you have to compensate for Dunleavy's one on one defense or Dahntays offense. I don't feel like that's the case now.

billbradley
09-27-2012, 08:47 AM
Really, a lot depends on PG if we are going to make the next step. But we all knew that. Maybe more depends on Hill?

I was thinking about this last night, our top four players can't dribble.

Coopdog23
09-27-2012, 09:05 AM
Really, a lot depends on PG if we are going to make the next step. But we all knew that. Maybe more depends on Hill?

I was thinking about this last night, our top four players can't dribble.

It depends on PG

Unclebuck
09-27-2012, 09:06 AM
The problem isn't that we don't have anyone who can get the ball to Roy or West in the post, the problem is that we don't yet have the dynamic perimeter player that every contender has. It is almost impossible to get a post player the ball in decent position late in games especially playoff games, so that is why every contender needs a point guard, shooting guard or small forward who can create something out of nothing. We do not have that, and that will be the reason why we lose when we do

billbradley
09-27-2012, 09:20 AM
Can Green dribble/create?

Unclebuck
09-27-2012, 09:24 AM
Can Green dribble/create?

I don't know. My sense is he is more of a finisher than a creator - but I have not seen enough of him to know

Speed
09-27-2012, 09:39 AM
Against the Pacers he frustrated Danny initially with his very good D. Danny went to the bag of tricks got a couple of fouls on him, IIRC, and that hampered Green's ability to defend, a bit. I remember him setting up in the high post/wing area and looking comfortable there, a couple of times. As for beating a guy face up off the dribble, not that I remember. Small sampling, all from memory. I do remember thinking that he looked pretty good all the way around, but my expectations were low, probably.

ejwallace
09-27-2012, 09:40 AM
I know that I may get flamed for this comment, but what is the possibility that we see Augustin running this team from the point midway through the season? With Hill being a combo guard with more of a scorers mentality, wouldn't that benefit our second team more giving a much needed threat off the bench? I would think that Augustin's ability to distribute the ball and make plays for others would benefit our first team more than the second team...

Maybe my view is skewed on this due to the fact that we have lacked a good distributing 1 for a while, and now that we have one, it doesn't sound as if he will be utilized to his fullest....

xIndyFan
09-27-2012, 09:44 AM
Can Green dribble/create?

According to Hollinger, probably not.


GERALD GREEN, SG

Scouting report
+ Athletic, explosive leaper with ideal size for a small forward. Ridiculous dunker.
+ Strong 3-point shooter. Ball skills only adequate, and prone to turnovers.
+ Lean build. Defense, basketball IQ and decision-making still are question marks.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?75477-Hollinger-breaks-down-our-Roster

Speed
09-27-2012, 09:48 AM
Here's the box score from the game I mentioned, a 84-100 loss to the Nets.

http://www.nba.com/games/20120328/INDNJN/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

Green had 14 pts, 4 rebs, 3 stls, 1 blk, 2 to, 4 fouls in 28 mins, was 6-10 FG and 2-4 from 3.

Danny had really maybe the worse game box wise I can remember, I have no idea how much Green guarded him, but I do remember he did some.

Granger 21 mins, 5 pts, 3 boards, 4 tos, 6 fouls. Yikes!

Unclebuck
09-27-2012, 09:56 AM
I know that I may get flamed for this comment, but what is the possibility that we see Augustin running this team from the point midway through the season? With Hill being a combo guard with more of a scorers mentality, wouldn't that benefit our second team more giving a much needed threat off the bench? I would think that Augustin's ability to distribute the ball and make plays for others would benefit our first team more than the second team...

Maybe my view is skewed on this due to the fact that we have lacked a good distributing 1 for a while, and now that we have one, it doesn't sound as if he will be utilized to his fullest....

I think that is a real possibility. I could see late in some games where Augustin is running the point and Hill is playing shooting guard. We'll have to see how it develops

pacergod2
09-27-2012, 10:16 AM
Our problem wasn't Hill's post entry passing. That is actually one of his best qualities as a perimeter player. Our biggest problem is not being able to attack the weakside when they bring the double team pressure. We didn't make the other team pay for doubling down on Hibbert. Paul made a lot of mistakes in that regard. if the ball needed to get passed on to Granger on the far side, it didn't happen. We made a lot of bad cross court passes that could easily get picked off. We need Hibbert to establish himself earlier in order to get him the ball prior to the the help coming. That, and if the double comes, Hibbert needs to be quicker with getting the ball rotated to catch the doubling player out of position. I think our biggest problem, was not feeding the post at all. It was the lack of ball movement that allowed teams to double us effectively. PG was the biggest culprit of not being able to truly feed the post. Most of our turnovers in this area had more to do with him than any other player. I think Granger did a poor job from the weakside of moving into a passing lane for an easier pass. When they double down two things need to happen, the point player needs to move towards the strong side to allow a potential pass from the big down low, to bail out the wing with the ball, and to bring his defender away from the weakside wing who can't then cover either player as easily. We didn't do this very well and DWade and Battier easily rotated defensively, which hurt us. Granger/the weakside wing needs to find a passing lane as well or make the decision to fill the most open area inside the arc, which helps him get a closer open shot. Another thing we could have done more of, is pick the weakside doubling defender with our PF. Get in his way and then run Granger off the pick toward the high post making his defender make the decision to either follow his man or double. Granger typically sat behind the three point arc and played patty cake as he watched his man double down.

I guess this is a long-winded post as I am accustomed to, but we had sooooo many more issues with feeding the post than Hill. Hill was the lone bright spot IMO, but he takes the fall as the PG. Paul George and Danny Granger need to get MUCH better with their wing play in feeding the post. Not only with the ball in their hands, but without it in their hands. We need all five guys being more proactive in order to feed the post instead of standing around waiting for a pass to happen against a defense that we allow to set itself up for the double team.

And no, Augustin won't be starting at any point this season, unless there is an injury to Hill. Hill fits exactly what we are trying to do. Augustin will play plenty of minutes though.

BillS
09-27-2012, 10:33 AM
It's easy to forget how poorly DC played the Pick and Roll in the recent past.

Forget? I still have nightmares where I think DC is coming through my living room on his way around the pick to catch up with the ball handler... :shudder:

beast23
09-27-2012, 10:43 AM
I think that is a real possibility. I could see late in some games where Augustin is running the point and Hill is playing shooting guard. We'll have to see how it develops
If Danny starts the season with a sore knee, I could see this tried sooner rather than later. Either way, we should know fairly early in the season how this works out.

Speed
09-27-2012, 10:45 AM
Forget? I still have nightmares where I think DC is coming through my living room on his way around the pick to catch up with the ball handler... :shudder:

I can't think of a worse nightmare, DC and a young Roy guarding a Pick and roll.

Coopdog23
09-27-2012, 12:22 PM
You can't say Hill was the reason we didn't get past Miami. Hibbert needs to have another All-Star season, Granger needs to step up, and PG needs to become the primary threat on the team for the Pacers to be an East powerhouse

Ace E.Anderson
09-27-2012, 04:53 PM
Can Green dribble/create?

I have league pass, and with D-Will being my brothers fave player, we watched a lot of Nets games last year.

Green is good in ISO situations, but he's not going to create for other players. He's big enough to play in the post against shorter players, yet athletic enough to drive and get all the way to the basket. He's also a pretty good shooter (from the 15 games or so that I saw him play last year)

He wont be a "give me the ball and let me create" type of guy. But he's a good "give me the ball and I'm going to score" type of guy. He does have problems with turnovers, but they are the exact OPPOSITE of PG turnovers. Green's turnovers are from him being aggressive trying to get to the basket.

I don't expect him to average nearly 13 ppg like he did last year, but I think he could be a double figure scorer for us this year...ESP if DG starts the season injured.

Ace E.Anderson
09-27-2012, 04:58 PM
Our problem wasn't Hill's post entry passing. That is actually one of his best qualities as a perimeter player. .

Hill was drafted by the Spurs at a time where there was a post entry pass to Duncan at least once nearly everytime down the floor. I feel that Hill is underrated on here because he isn't a facilitator like most PD members would like at the PG position. Of his few weaknesses, post entry passes arent one of them. In fact, I think he looked to the post a tad TOO often (often times forcing the ball into West) when he could have looked for his shot a tad more.

He's valuable as a shooter and scorer at the 1, and I think he should exploit that a little more.

McKeyFan
09-27-2012, 06:56 PM
You can't say Hill was the reason we didn't get past Miami.

Mind you, I am a big George Hill fan.

He, alone, in the abstract, is not the reason our offense bogs down. It's not that he lacks being an elite distributor. A lot of point guards out there like that. It's that his two can't create and distribute. Neither can his three.

GHill is an average distributor. He can get the job basically done. But if you don't have another guard or small forward making things happen, then the point guard needs to be elite at distribution.

I'm not picking on GHill. I'm saying that our current mix won't work unless we make a change or one of our perimeter players suddenly improves. Couple GHill with Ginobli, DWade, or a Paul Pierce or even lesser tier creator type and he is golden.

Naptown_Seth
09-27-2012, 10:04 PM
Really, a lot depends on PG if we are going to make the next step. But we all knew that. Maybe more depends on Hill?

I was thinking about this last night, our top four players can't dribble.
What they need is Paul using other players and screens better and Hill improving his feel for feeding Roy or West in posts and then Danny and Paul on catch and curls. I think Vogel can fix tons of things with some playbook tweeks, they don't really need to rely on dribble breakdowns. And if they need dribble breakdown style plays they have DJ now.

Apart from DJ and West what I really like is the ability to play physical, intimidating defense. Not in a push you around thug style but in the covering space, good reach, good hops smothering way. They can generate a ton of offense out of that. 12-16 points out of TOs a game can do wonders for offensive lulls, and then West/Roy post can carry them through a lot of the other struggles.

pizza guy
09-27-2012, 10:56 PM
What they need is Paul using other players and screens better and Hill improving his feel for feeding Roy or West in posts and then Danny and Paul on catch and curls. I think Vogel can fix tons of things with some playbook tweeks, they don't really need to rely on dribble breakdowns. And if they need dribble breakdown style plays they have DJ now.

Apart from DJ and West what I really like is the ability to play physical, intimidating defense. Not in a push you around thug style but in the covering space, good reach, good hops smothering way. They can generate a ton of offense out of that. 12-16 points out of TOs a game can do wonders for offensive lulls, and then West/Roy post can carry them through a lot of the other struggles.

I skimmed through some of the long posts, sorry guys... But I was pretty much looking for someone to say that a lot of the responsibility for our offensive struggles MUST fall on Vogel. With the lockout, then the injury to DC, and Hill taking over late, plus the fact that DWest may not have been 100% until late in the season, our offense had a lot to deal with IMO. Not wanting to make excuses for it, because it simply has to get better. But given the full off-season, the addition of some more dynamic offensive players, and the continued improvement (we hope) of Paul George, this offense has to improve or it's absolutely on Vogel.

I think now we actually have the depth we were looking for last year. With the athleticism and depth of this team, added to the lack of "go-to playmaker," this offense should rely on constant movement, passing, and smart play. We don't have to match Lebron's explosive offense, we just have to play smart and play together -- then play extremely tough defense. I believe we have the ability to do that.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-28-2012, 12:17 PM
Its not really fair to blame Vogel for that though. If it continues this year, then the blame goes to Vogel.

It will be interesting to see how this team looks after a full preseason to work on their offensive plays. Not to mention time during the regular season to work on and improve aspects of their game.

I think we should be fine.

Eleazar
09-28-2012, 01:24 PM
Its not really fair to blame Vogel for that though. If it continues this year, then the blame goes to Vogel.

It will be interesting to see how this team looks after a full preseason to work on their offensive plays. Not to mention time during the regular season to work on and improve aspects of their game.

I think we should be fine.

Yeah, but it can't be ignored. I am cautiously optimistic about Vogel, but his improvement could have the biggest out of everyone.

Ace E.Anderson
09-28-2012, 01:33 PM
Its not really fair to blame Vogel for that though. If it continues this year, then the blame goes to Vogel.

It will be interesting to see how this team looks after a full preseason to work on their offensive plays. Not to mention time during the regular season to work on and improve aspects of their game.

I think we should be fine.

Everyone in the league had the same "issue". I'm not blaming Vogel for us losing, but I hope he comes up with a more cohesive, and less predictable offensive strategy this year. I think the fact that we retained Shaw will help big time.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-28-2012, 01:45 PM
Everyone in the league had the same "issue". I'm not blaming Vogel for us losing, but I hope he comes up with a more cohesive, and less predictable offensive strategy this year. I think the fact that we retained Shaw will help big time.

No they didn't. How many other teams had a new coach last year and two new starters(by the end of the year)?

The Pacers had much more to work on, compared to say teams like the Heat and Thunder. Whose coaching staff had already had time to work with their players the previous year. And whose lineups were relatively static.

Where as Vogel had no training camp to introduce his system. He had to introduce during an already truncated season. While trying to phase in 2 new key contributors.

I don't see why this is hard for you to understand.

pacergod2
09-28-2012, 02:45 PM
No they didn't. How many other teams had a new coach last year and two new starters(by the end of the year)?

The Pacers had much more to work on, compared to say teams like the Heat and Thunder. Whose coaching staff had already had time to work with their players the previous year. And whose lineups were relatively static.

Where as Vogel had no training camp to introduce his system. He had to introduce during an already truncated season. While trying to phase in 2 new key contributors.

I don't see why this is hard for you to understand.

I would have thanked your post, but didn't due to the bolded part. Uncalled for even if I agree with you.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-28-2012, 02:49 PM
I would have thanked your post, but didn't due to the bolded part. Uncalled for even if I agree with you.

I only put that part because this is the third time in three different topics where he has tried to pretend that Vogel had the same exact situation as other teams. I wouldn't have put that if it was the first time I was making the argument. But the third time, I am going to ask why he is just ignoring the points and continue to try to hold Vogel to an unfair standard.

pacergod2
09-28-2012, 02:58 PM
I only put that part because this is the third time in three different topics where he has tried to pretend that Vogel had the same exact situation as other teams. I wouldn't have put that if it was the first time I was making the argument. But the third time, I am going to ask why he is just ignoring the points and continue to try to hold Vogel to an unfair standard.

Understood. It is still more aggressive than you need. Your points carry weight with other people than just him/her. You can't control what others pay attention to, but they are more likely to notice the negative. Can't make or take it personal.

Vogel needs more than one training camp I agree. I actually think we will underperform most people's expecetations this year, not because we aren't good, but the expectations might be a bit too high. I think Vogel needs to grow with this team and I think his coaching will be most important across our non-front court players this season. If we underperform, we shouldn't get rid of Vogel.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-28-2012, 03:05 PM
Understood. It is still more aggressive than you need. Your points carry weight with other people than just him/her. You can't control what others pay attention to, but they are more likely to notice the negative. Can't make or take it personal.

Vogel needs more than one training camp I agree. I actually think we will underperform most people's expecetations this year, not because we aren't good, but the expectations might be a bit too high. I think Vogel needs to grow with this team and I think his coaching will be most important across our non-front court players this season. If we underperform, we shouldn't get rid of Vogel.

Fair enough.

I am not sure what to expect, Vogel has never had a training camp. Do I expect our offense to be better rounded, sure. But I think the most improvement we will see will be on the defensive side of the ball. Our team defense as a whole needed work in the Miami series, Cuban even pointed that out. He said teams like us, weren't able to do what his Mavs had done against the Heat, because they had spent an entire preseason game just working on those things they went on to use.

I think most of any offensive improvements we see this year, will just be from players growth, and actually having a distributor(DJ) on the roster.

Eleazar
09-28-2012, 04:33 PM
I would have thanked your post, but didn't due to the bolded part. Uncalled for even if I agree with you.

I don't see what was so horrible about what he said? He didn't call him stupid, or an idiot or anything. He was just saying he didn't understand why the other guy didn't understand. Nothing harsh, uncalled for, or aggressive.

Ace E.Anderson
09-29-2012, 12:46 AM
I only put that part because this is the third time in three different topics where he has tried to pretend that Vogel had the same exact situation as other teams. I wouldn't have put that if it was the first time I was making the argument. But the third time, I am going to ask why he is just ignoring the points and continue to try to hold Vogel to an unfair standard.

I'm not sure what other two times you're talking about lol, but EVERYBODY had to deal with the lockout. That's just a fact. No Vogel prob didn't have enough time to fully implement what he wanted offensively or defensively, but neither did any other coach.

I'm not trying to hold him to an omposs standard as I think he's a good coach, I just think some over state the fact that it was a lockout shortened season and we added a few new players. No it's not the SAME EXACT situation as other coaches and other teams, but different coaches have different issues to deal with.

Van Gundy (whom I hate) had to deal with Dwight drama, Thibidoeau had to deal with injuries, etc. Vogel had to deal with trying to add new pieces on the fly, but that's his job as the head coach. He did a very good job, but I'm just not buying the lockout as an excuse for anything because everyone went through it.

And again, I think Vogel is good. Has as much to do with the change in our culture as anybody. It'll be interesting what he can do with a full training camp.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-29-2012, 12:59 AM
I'm not sure what other two times you're talking about lol, but EVERYBODY had to deal with the lockout. That's just a fact. No Vogel prob didn't have enough time to fully implement what he wanted offensively or defensively, but neither did any other coach.

I'm not trying to hold him to an omposs standard as I think he's a good coach, I just think some over state the fact that it was a lockout shortened season and we added a few new players. No it's not the SAME EXACT situation as other coaches and other teams, but different coaches have different issues to deal with.

Van Gundy (whom I hate) had to deal with Dwight drama, Thibidoeau had to deal with injuries, etc. Vogel had to deal with trying to add new pieces on the fly, but that's his job as the head coach. He did a very good job, but I'm just not buying the lockout as an excuse for anything because everyone went through it.

Lol whys that part hard for you to understand

No offense here. But if you honestly think that a first year head coach isnt significantly worse off losing training camp than a second year coach, then you need to get your head examined. Other coaches didnt need training camp to get their systems in place because they had them in place from the year before. Thats just common sense. The Bulls, Heat, Celtics, Thunder and Spurs could just go with last years system. Vogel couldnt do that. He was in a drastically worse position with 2 new starters. Thats also something that none of those teams had to deal with IIRC

MvPlumlee
09-29-2012, 03:00 AM
I would just let the starters figure out a way to score and with the size advantage most of them have, I think they will do fine during large parts of the game.
If they struggle, Augustin can be of great help for our offense as the sixth man.
It will be like a reward: hey man, u focused first on defense and then tried so hard to create offense on your own, I'll make it more easy for you, catch it and score...

To finish games, DJ is probably our best option to create offense, but who could Frank substitute him in for?
Hill is too good in the clutch and a very good defender. Paul is our best defender and can be a good scorer. Danny can shoot. West is clutch but not a great rebounder or rim protector. Hibbert is a good rebounder and great rim protector, but a bit slow to keep up in crunch time.

Mahinmi perhaps. He isn't as good overall as our starters, but he can rebound, protect the rim and is useful on the perimeter to set screens and defend them.
And scoring in the post is much more difficult late in games.

PacersForever
09-29-2012, 07:25 AM
The best combination we could possibly get is,

PG: DJ
SG George

Backup SG: Hill
Backup PG: Stevenson

DJ is a great facilitator we utilize him to the best of his ability at starting PG. Makes sense to start George over Hill to.

Stevenson will be givin a chance a backup PG. If Augustin doesn't start then we have 3 PG's.

Hill can spark the bench at backup SG.

Unless we resign Barbosa then that's are best rotation.

Ace E.Anderson
09-29-2012, 09:30 AM
No offense here. But if you honestly think that a first year head coach isnt significantly worse off losing training camp than a second year coach, then you need to get your head examined. Other coaches didnt need training camp to get their systems in place because they had them in place from the year before. Thats just common sense. The Bulls, Heat, Celtics, Thunder and Spurs could just go with last years system. Vogel couldnt do that. He was in a drastically worse position with 2 new starters. Thats also something that none of those teams had to deal with IIRC

Well you're half right, a first year coach maybe, but Vogel had coached our team for half a season and a playoff series the season prior, not to mention he was an assistant to JOB as well, so it's not like he had ZERO familiarity with most of the players on our roster and vice versa. Yes we had to implement West and Hill on the fly, but again any team that added players to their team had the same issue.

Was he in an ideal situation? No. But calling it drastically worse than any other coaching situation is kind of drastic. As I said before, Vogel is a good coach and it'll be interesting if we'll see drastic changes within our play book after a full training camp.

There's no point in debating because you've already made this bigger than it is, and have misconstrued my words. We just disagree and that's now twice you've tried to say something offensive. You've made your point, I've made mine. Move on...

Now excuse me as I get my head examined

McKeyFan
09-29-2012, 04:53 PM
The best combination we could possibly get is,

PG: DJ
SG George

Backup SG: Hill
Backup PG: Stevenson

DJ is a great facilitator we utilize to the best of his ability at starting PG. Makes sense to start George over Hill to.

Stevenson will be givin a chance a backup PG. If Augustin doesn't start then we have 3 PG's.

Hill can spark the bench at backup SG.

Unless we resign Barbosa then that's are best rotation.

That's a fine scenario throughout the game. But the real question comes down the stretch. Who plays then? I can't see Hill sitting.

BillS
10-01-2012, 09:55 AM
Well you're half right, a first year coach maybe, but Vogel had coached our team for half a season and a playoff series the season prior, not to mention he was an assistant to JOB as well, so it's not like he had ZERO familiarity with most of the players on our roster and vice versa. Yes we had to implement West and Hill on the fly, but again any team that added players to their team had the same issue.


I disagree. The half season Vogel coached was spent simplifying the offense greatly over what JOB had in place, which gives very little basis for an offensive system that would be available to run without a training camp. In fact, I would propose that the simplified offense that carried over is exactly why we were easy to defend in far too many cases.

While I assign a little more weight to the system this year than Mario does in terms of determining Vogel's future, in my case I want to see a system that has more depth to it even if it takes a while for the players to get into it. It will be extremely important to separate execution of a well-planned system (which would be on the players to a certain extent) from lack of a system (which would be on Vogel).

Ace E.Anderson
10-01-2012, 11:53 AM
I disagree. The half season Vogel coached was spent simplifying the offense greatly over what JOB had in place, which gives very little basis for an offensive system that would be available to run without a training camp. In fact, I would propose that the simplified offense that carried over is exactly why we were easy to defend in far too many cases.

While I assign a little more weight to the system this year than Mario does in terms of determining Vogel's future, in my case I want to see a system that has more depth to it even if it takes a while for the players to get into it. It will be extremely important to separate execution of a well-planned system (which would be on the players to a certain extent) from lack of a system (which would be on Vogel).

If you read the story from the Indy Star this morning, Vogel touched on the ability to implement more schemes both offensively and defensively this season. I essentially agree--we were very predictable offensively last year. It will certainly be interesting to see how much more complex and we will be able to be offensively this season.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that I believe that this is the year we find out what Vogel is. We shouldn't pretend this is his first year, and completely discount what he's done in his first two years here, both positive and negative. If we are somehow still very predictable offensively, a lot of that falls on the head coach's shoulders. The fact that last season was a lockout shortened season shouldn't change that fact..in my eyes.

Now I'm not saying if we don't win 50 games, we should can the guy. In fact if we got off to a bit of a slow start because we are attempting to make sure we run every set to a T, then I wouldn't complain at all. All I'm looking for is improvement and a system that we can hang our hat on--especially offensively; because with this group of players we will have to rely on execution and strategy to take out other teams with superior talent.

Kid Minneapolis
10-01-2012, 11:58 AM
I think people forget that Vogel is essentially a "second-year" player. He's still very young and inexperienced as a head coach, so you have to allow for growth on his part, also.

BillS
10-01-2012, 12:12 PM
I think people forget that Vogel is essentially a "second-year" player. He's still very young and inexperienced as a head coach, so you have to allow for growth on his part, also.

How many second year players get tossed under the bus if they don't make improvement that year?

I am in favor of Vogel having his option picked up ASAP, which means no matter what happens this year he will have next year as well. However, that doesn't mean I don't think he should show something this year before he gets a contract extension.

Kid Minneapolis
10-01-2012, 12:21 PM
They only get tossed under the bus by fans, and generally illogically, so that point isn't very valid. Fans are idiots. :)

Who would give up on Paul George now, he has two years under his belt. Exact same amount of time for Vogel. Of course we expect improvement from them. But if Paul George only improves 10% this year, are you going to throw him away?

I already think Vogel is very very good, especialy considering how little experience and age that guy carries with him. I also think he's going to get better every year. We've done what we have these past 2 seasons despite absorbing some of Vogel's learning curve --- imagine how good we'll be once the guy starts to really figure it out. Man, that sounds familiar...

Eleazar
10-01-2012, 12:58 PM
There are three aspects that make up a great general, their motivational skills, their strategic skills, and their ability to spot talent. I would say motivation is the most important, followed closely by spotting talent, and then strategic. Vogel has proven he is a great motivator, and most people believe he has the best assistant coach in the league. He just needs to prove he can be a strategist also, or at the very least is willing to use the talent he has collected around him to make up for his short comings.

I would say he is 70% of his way to being a great coach. If he can show he can be a strategist also we may have a franchise coach on our hands. If not, he will never be anything more than an average coach.

Kid Minneapolis
10-01-2012, 01:09 PM
There are three aspects that make up a great general, their motivational skills, their strategic skills, and their ability to spot talent. I would say motivation is the most important, followed closely by spotting talent, and then strategic. Vogel has proven he is a great motivator, and most people believe he has the best assistant coach in the league. He just needs to prove he can be a strategist also, or at the very least is willing to use the talent he has collected around him to make up for his short comings.

I would say he is 70% of his way to being a great coach. If he can show he can be a strategist also we may have a franchise coach on our hands. If not, he will never be anything more than an average coach.

Absolutely right, and strategy is usually earned with experience. We're talking a guy who has been a head coach for barely 2 years. Period. He wasn't a head coach on any level and found himself HC of an NBA team at the age of 37. Of course his strategy is likely going to be his worst skill. He seems smart enough and has the guys around him to nurture that skill, I have full faith that he will.

McKeyFan
10-01-2012, 07:11 PM
One of the best strategic decisions he ever made was to immediately ditch all of JOB's weird strategies.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
10-02-2012, 01:40 AM
Lance will see little PT. He will get his chance early on like he did last year. Sadly, he simply doesn't have what it takes intellectually (basketball intellect) to play in the NBA. He's a lost cause.

Psyren
10-02-2012, 02:11 AM
Lance will see little PT. He will get his chance early on like he did last year. Sadly, he simply doesn't have what it takes intellectually (basketball intellect) to play in the NBA. He's a lost cause.

Ive seen nothing that indicates that Lance doesnt have the basketball IQ to succeed. He actually seems to have a good grip on the game.

Its his regular IQ and work ethic that worry me most.

McKeyFan
10-02-2012, 08:33 AM
Its his regular IQ and work ethic that worry me most.

I tend to think he has a good IQ, a good bball IQ, and could even have a decent work ethic.

None of those have to do with emotional maturity. His crucible will be making good decisions during difficult times. That primarily involves neither talent nor IQ.

docpaul
10-02-2012, 03:15 PM
The best combination we could possibly get is,

PG: DJ
SG George



I continue to believe that Hill's future is ultimately as the starting 2. I think this is where he prefers to play and has suggested as such publicly, multiple times. I would not be surprised at all to see Granger go this season, paving a way for a substantive signing for DJ or a true point guard next offseason.

That would leave us with DJ (or his archetype) at the 1, GH at the 2, PG at the 3, and Hibbert at the 5. That leaves our biggest future hole at the 4. I think we're really vulnerable there come this time next year.