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vnzla81
09-09-2012, 02:52 PM
Who do you guys think is going to make it next? or deserves to make it?

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/09/07/basketball-hall-of-fame-grant-hill-tracy-mcgrady/?sct=nba_t11_a0


Getting into the Hall of Fame is very hard for a certain kind of very good NBA player. Players who crack 21,000 points or finish with a Player Efficiency Rating of 21.0 or higher are generally locks, provided they’ve made the requisite number of All-Star teams and haven’t irreparably sullied their reputations. A couple of future candidates, especially Vince Carter, are going to challenge the primacy of those milestones in front of a voting committee that seems to value pioneering accomplishments, college success and membership on multiple championship teams as much as it does individual NBA numbers.

The induction this year of Ralph Sampson hammers that home. Sampson played only nine NBA seasons. He barely cracked 7,000 career regular-season points and recorded precisely three seasons — his first three — in which he played 50 games and averaged at least 15 points per game. He did make four All-Star teams and hit an iconic shot to beat the Lakers in the 1986 Western Conference finals, and a series of unfortunate injuries limited him during his career and forced its premature end. Still, there is no standard under which an NBA-only Hall of Fame would admit Sampson. He’s in mostly because of his legendary college career at Virginia, where his play convinced NBA higher-ups he would revolutionize the game and had Celtics honcho Red Auerbach traveling to Charlottesville after Sampson’s freshman year to try to persuade the big fella to enter the 1980 draft — in which Boston had the top pick. (Auerbach failed, and the Celtics ended up using that pick to swing a franchise-altering megadeal that netted Robert Parish and Kevin McHale.)

The focus on guys like Sampson is fine. The Hall of Fame is for the general sport of basketball, not the NBA, and it’s fun to have contributors from across the world housed in one place. But that has left a particular group of NBA players out in the cold — the guys who score somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 points, make a couple of All-Star teams, fail to really distinguish themselves as elite defenders/rebounders/passers and go through their careers without playing a prominent role on a truly memorable championship team.

A ton of names fit this bill — Eddie Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Tom Chambers, Glen Rice, Walter Davis, Bernard King, Terry Cummings, Reggie Theus, Dale Ellis, Lou Hudson, Cliff Robinson, Mitch Richmond, Mark Aguirre and many others. Some of those guys made more than a couple of All-Star teams (Hudson and Richmond made six each, for instance), and some (Richmond and Rice) won single rings as role players on top-heavy Lakers teams. Aguirre was a key member of two championship teams in Detroit, scored more career points than Hall of Famer Chris Mullin and barely gets a sniff from Springfield; the player the Pistons dealt away for him at Isiah Thomas’ urging, Adrian Dantley, is in the Hall, in part because he reached a sheer number of points (more than 23,000) voters simply cannot ignore. (He was also a fantastic player.)

Here’s a quick look at a few current players who are going to finish their careers soon and end up somewhere in this Hall of Fame Netherworld Spectrum. The focus is on players clearly at the tail end of their NBA careers: Those in their mid-30s whose minutes and/or level of play are in obvious decline. If a qualified mid-30s player is not listed here, that means they are a Hall of Fame lock.

The Big-Name Stars
• Grant Hill: Hill is going to get in, even though a series of devastating ankle injuries limited him to six truly dominant seasons at the start of his career — a streak that ended right after he signed a massive free-agent contract with the Magic during the same summer spending bonanza that netted the next guy on this list. But Hill was one of the league’s top half-dozen or so players during that six-season stretch, and he has since reinvented himself as an effective two-way third/fourth option on the wing. He’ll approach 18,000 career points, and when you toss in a storied college career at Duke — including authorship of the best inbounds pass in basketball history — Hill meets the Springfield criteria.

• Tracy McGrady: Covered here. McGrady’s apex was incredible, peaking with a 2002-03 season that ranks among the best in the sport’s history. At top form, McGrady shot 45 percent, hit an above-average percentage from three-point range, sported perhaps the best wing passing skills in the pre-LeBron James era and even bought in on defense — most famously in the 2005 playoffs, when McGrady guarded Dirk Nowitzki effectively as a depleted Rockets team pushed the Mavericks to seven games in a losing effort. But his career is littered with ugly stuff: the departures from Toronto and Orlando, announcing his intention to undergo microfracture surgery in 2009 before even telling the Rockets, laughing on the bench as Detroit mutinied against coach John Kuester, etc.

Will all of that, plus his relatively early fall from elite status, keep him out of Springfield? He’ll probably end up with close to 19,000 points, seven All-Star appearances and zero postseason series wins.

• Vince Carter: Covered at length last year at this time. Assuming Allen Iverson gets in at some point, Carter, with more than 21,000 points already, stands a chance at being the all-time highest ABA/NBA scorer on the outside.

• Manu Ginobili: He’s absolutely going to get in, and he should. Ginobili’s already 35 and cracked 10,000 career points only last season, but voters are smart enough to see the context behind those numbers and the paltry two All-Star Games. Ginobili came into the league late, at 25, after dominating the Euroleague; worked as the best player on an Argentina team that won gold in the 2004 Olympics and beat Team USA twice; and has won three titles under an NBA coach who prioritizes minutes management above regular-season numbers. Ginobili is an all-around hoops genius, and a Springfield no-brainer.

The Defenders
• Marcus Camby: He’s played in the league forever and been an elite rebounder and shot-blocker for his entire career. He’s 40th in the NBA in total rebounds, but that undersells his glass-eating; Camby is fifth in total rebounding rate, which measures the percentage of rebounds a player grabs while on the floor. He is also a nifty passer for a big man, and could actually score in double figures for the first half of his career before morphing into the offensive nonentity (outside of rebounding) he is now. If Dennis Rodman can get in, why can’t Camby?

For one, Rodman won five rings as part of two legendary NBA teams — the Bad Boy Pistons and the post-baseball Jordan Bulls. He started for the 1995-96 Bulls, who went 72-10 and are in the “greatest team ever” conversation. Rodman could defend wing players early in his career, and his rebounding numbers are off the charts, even in comparison to players like Camby and Dwight Howard. He is the greatest rebounder in league history, by a significant margin. Camby also helped lift UMass to prominence, including a Final Four run, but the school ultimately had to vacate that season’s record after it was revealed Camby received improper benefits from an agent.

• Ben Wallace: Wallace is No. 8 in the NBA in rebounding rate, won a ring as part of a Detroit team that played in six straight conference finals, made five straight first-team All-Defensive teams and guarded Shaquille O’Neal decently during the 2004 Finals. But his career got off to a slow start, with three fairly low-minutes seasons in Washington, and it has ended with unspectacular (but solid) play in Chicago, Cleveland and Detroit again. Wallace was a horrid free-throw shooter and less of an offensive threat than Camby, but he made up for it to some degree with nasty screen-setting and decent passing.

The “Clutch” Winners
• Chauncey Billups: Voters love Finals MVPs, and though Billups never quite lived up to the “Mr. Big Shot” moniker — his clutch numbers are pretty average overall — he did make some huge shots for the Pistons, upgraded Denver as soon as he got there and has won universal respect as a locker-room leader. He could finish with close to 17,000 points and a PER around 19.0 — a top-100 mark — if he stays healthy and productive for two more seasons. He has remained very efficient as his athleticism declines by focusing almost entirely on threes and free throws. A five-time All-Star and a solid, smart defender during his prime, Billups has had trouble cracking the All-NBA teams with so many elite point guards, old and young, scattered around the league. Gun to my head, I bet Billups gets in.

• Jason Terry: This is my pet case, if only because Terry’s Hall of Fame credentials are starting to sneak up on people. Terry has 16,487 career regular-season points, so if he can manage just 1,000 per year over the next three seasons in Boston, he’ll begin to approach the territory at which voters at least take a second look — even if Terry’s 17.5 career PER is not on pace to crack the top 150 (minimum: 15,000 minutes played). He’ll likely finish third all-time in made three-pointers–and with zero All-Star appearances, an obvious disqualifier. Terry’s size means that teams have to hide him a bit on defense, but he has always been a wily defender and has survived in Dallas’ complex hybrid zone defenses — not the easiest thing to master.

Terry’s contributions on the other end have probably been underrated. He’s a terrific shooter who can work the pick-and-roll, and players with that skill set are enormously difficult to guard. Dallas’ offense has just about always improved by massive margins with Terry on the floor, and while lineup combinations have something to do with that, Terry’s skill set does, too. He hasn’t always been clutch (check his early postseason numbers), but he has been a steady late-game player for a team that has regularly outperformed expectations in close games. His work in the 2011 playoffs, especially the clinching game of the Finals, was exemplary, including 44 percent shooting from long range.

Terry probably isn’t going to get serious attention without another title in Boston, but his career may at least make for a fun argument one or two beers into a Friday night.

Somehow Doesn’t Pass The Smell Test
• Elton Brand: True story: Every player in NBA/ABA history with a career PER above 21.0 and at least 15,000 minutes played has either made the Hall of Fame or hasn’t come up for eligibility yet. Brand’s career PER is 21.30. He also averaged at least 20 points and nine rebounds in six of his first eight seasons and came close in other two. He was a brutally efficient low-post scorer, ranked in the top 10 in PER in three seasons and has evolved into a stout defender. Depending on his longevity and role, he has an outside shot at 20,000 career points.

But through no fault of his own, Brand hasn’t played on any great teams, and his production has tailed off since a mid-career Achilles injury. He won’t maintain that 21-plus PER as he ages.

• Richard Hamilton: Rip averaged between 17 and 20 points per game for 10 straight seasons and was the most reliable scorer on those Detroit teams that made six consecutive conference finals. His trade from the Wizards to the Pistons was one of the central moves in the construction of that team because Hamilton, unlike Jerry Stackhouse (who went to Washington in that deal), could thrive off the ball. Hamilton was a decent defender in his prime but never an especially good one, and he was an underrated passer who could run a nice pick-and-roll on the wing and drop the ball to big men as he caught the ball sprinting around a pick. Just three All-Star Games and zero All-NBA appearances. Never developed a reliable three-point shot. Won a title at UConn, but still seems destined for the Hall of Fame netherworld.

• Jerry Stackhouse: He was on the flip side of that Washington-Detroit trade, and like Hamilton, Stackhouse butted heads with Michael Jordan in his desire to emerge as a star in his own right. He’s hanging on to an NBA career with 16,000-plus career points, but he has never been an accurate shooter (career 40.9 percent from the floor), and his efficiency fell off a cliff when he couldn’t draw the heaps of free throws that sustained him during prime years. Had his chance at a ring in Dallas, as a pre-Terry sixth man, but never got it. Was never quite special as a passer or defender. A tough, tough dude and hoops junkie who just doesn’t have enough on the résumé.

• Shawn Marion: Don’t laugh. Marion has nearly 16,000 career points, a championship ring on a memorable Dallas team and worked as a key third-option type on the Seven Seconds or Less Suns that rejuvenated offense around the league. He’s a four-time All-Star who has also piled up some nice rebounding numbers; his career rebounding rate is just about the same as Pau Gasol’s. He’s always taken care of the ball, and has developed into an elite defender capable of guarding four positions. It’s puzzling that Marion has never made a single All-Defensive team, especially as Kobe Bryant (at another position, I realize) continues to make them on an outdated reputation. Marion’s ability to play both forward positions has made him enormously valuable, capable of playing in several different kinds of first- and second-unit lineups.

And yet, aside from some unmemorable time in Toronto and his work on the 2005-06 Suns, Marion has rarely been even the second option on his teams. That Suns team did have a conference finals run without Amar’e Stoudemire, their real second option, but it got that far only because the league’s silly seeding rules had by far the two best teams — Dallas and San Antonio — meet in the second round.

• Jermaine O’Neal: Elite two-way big men deserve extra credit. Other than true top-five superstars, they are the most valuable commodity in the league, and for a bit longer than a half-decade, O’Neal was a very, very good two-way big. But he missed significant time during two seasons of that prime stretch, and his peak just didn’t last long enough or reach high enough highs to warrant serious Hall consideration. He has slightly more than 12,000 points, and it’s unclear how much he has left in the tank after a series of injuries limited him to just 34 games over the last two years in Boston.

• Andre Miller: Miller is 10th all-time in assists, a basketball professor with a unique understanding of how to create space, generate the best kind of shot attempts (threes and layups) for teammates and work the post. Perhaps the greatest lob passer in NBA history. Miller is also an uneven defender, owns a middling (by Hall standards) 17.84 PER and has never won a playoff series in the NBA.

• Antawn Jamison: The new Lakers’ forward is going to blow past 20,000 points this season, and if he stays healthy for another couple of years, he will get into that points territory in which guys nearly automatically gain entry to the Hall. But I don’t buy it. Big men have to provide defense, and Jamison has teetered between “average” and “disastrous” during most of his career, falling into the latter category for the last half-decade or so. His inability to even pretend to guard Kevin Garnett is one of the two or three biggest reasons the Celtics upset Cleveland in the conference semifinals in 2010, setting off a chain of events that has reshaped the league. Jamison is a funky scorer and has developed into a league-average three-point shooter, but he’s not a Hall of Famer.

• Baron Davis: We all love Baron Davis. We all enjoyed the 2007 “We Believe” Warriors. He’s smart, funny, thoughtful — a great interview. In three or four healthy, productive seasons during a much longer career, Davis played point guard with a combination of destructive force, fun spirit and passing genius we’ve seldom seen. It’s just not close to enough for a Springfield case.

• Derek Fisher: Only because it will come up: No. Fisher has hit some monstrous shots en route to five titles with the Lakers, including the 0.4 shot against San Antonio, the tying and clinching shots in Game 5 of the 2009 Finals and an improbable series of baskets late in Game 3 of the 2010 Finals in Boston to swing that game — and that series. And there is precedent, in the form of K.C. Jones and others, for letting in low-scoring members of dynastic teams. But Fisher was a limited role player on two mini-dynasties set apart by a half-dozen seasons, and he has been a below-average player his entire career. And just to reiterate: Bernard King is not in the Hall of Fame. Fisher’s had a nice career and his stewardship of the players’ union will win him gravitas points, but he’s not a Hall of Famer.

yoadknux
09-09-2012, 03:56 PM
The Big-Name Stars
• Grant Hill: probably
• Tracy McGrady: He deserves. Poor guy, injuries killed him
• Vince Carter: Probably
• Manu Ginobili: Yes

The Defenders
• Marcus Camby: Ehh.. Sure, he was decent. But if Mutombo didn't get in than this guy shouldn't
• Ben Wallace: Mutombo again

The “Clutch” Winners
• Chauncey Billups: Yes. I think he was the best player on the thug pistons team, done ***** with team USA, he deserves it
• Jason Terry: NOOOOOOOOOOO

Somehow Doesn’t Pass The Smell Test
• Elton Brand: no
• Richard Hamilton: No! Who's nominated next? Richard Jefferson?
• Jerry Stackhouse: hmm maybe
• Shawn Marion: Maybe, if times get real bad
• Jermaine O’Neal: no
• Andre Miller: not HOF talent, but might have gotten in if he were part of a champ team
• Antawn Jamison: lol?
• Baron Davis: lol no
• Derek Fisher: NO

vnzla81
09-09-2012, 04:00 PM
They forgot to mention Robert Horry I think there is a chance for him to be in, Iverson is in for sure, Fishers maybe because of all the championships.

idioteque
09-09-2012, 05:19 PM
The HOF is even more of a joke if Horry gets in, yes he made some clutch shots but talent wise he is a slightly better 90's-mid aughts version of Kyle Korver, for God's sake his career average ppg is 7.0! That's like barely a point more than Ben Wallace, who isn't even expected to be a decent scorer.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-09-2012, 05:36 PM
Wow, Hall of very good I guess

PR07
09-09-2012, 06:04 PM
Just eyeballing it, the vast consensus of those players shouldn't get it. They were good players, but not great (granted the basketball hall of fame factors in collegiate careers, etc.).

I'd say Grant Hill, Vince Carter, Manu and Billups.

Eleazar
09-09-2012, 06:35 PM
Manu and McGrady are the only two that should be considered, with Billups being on the bubble.

neosmndrew
09-09-2012, 06:54 PM
Are are we ignoring KG, Pierce, and Kidd because we think they are absolute locks or because they aren't at the end of the road yet?

vnzla81
09-09-2012, 06:55 PM
What about Nash? I think he needs to be in.

vnzla81
09-09-2012, 06:56 PM
Are are we ignoring KG, Pierce, and Kidd because we think they are absolute locks or because they aren't at the end of the road yet?

They are getting ignored because everybody knows they are in.

Eleazar
09-09-2012, 07:21 PM
Kidd is a lock? Ok, you guys have low standards.

vnzla81
09-09-2012, 07:27 PM
Kidd is a lock? Ok, you guys have low standards.

Uh? :confused:



edit: Just look at his career awards:

Rookie of the year, 10 NBA All Stars, 5 all NBA first teams, 4 NBA all defensive teams, 5th NBA assist leader, NBA Champion, 3rd place for regular season triple doubles, second in playoffs triple doubles, 3rd all time three point leader, yep more than enough numbers an awards for him to be in the Hall of Fame.

idioteque
09-09-2012, 08:02 PM
Kidd is a lock? Ok, you guys have low standards.

Really? To me Kidd is prominent in the conversation of best PGs in the last 20 years. Why not?

rexnom
09-09-2012, 08:48 PM
Kidd and Nash are both locks.

hackashaq
09-09-2012, 09:16 PM
Really? To me Kidd is prominent in the conversation of best PGs in the last 20 years. Why not?

this.
Kidd, Nash, KG, Pierce, Ray Allen, Kobe, Tim, Wade, Dirk, Ben Wallace are pretty much locks (speaking of over-30 players). I don't think that all of them will get in on the first ballot (I think Big Ben and Pierce/Ray might end up waiting a little bit), but I'd bet money that they'll be in.

There are also multiple players I think are bound to make it (eventually) because of their combination of NBA and international careers. Manu, Pau, Tony Parker, Peja Stojakovic.

Then there's Chauncey Billups, T-Mac, Vince and Grant Hill, I'd give them ~50% chance, with Chauncey and T-Mac more likely than the other two.

MillerTime
09-09-2012, 10:04 PM
Wheres Duncan's mention???

This doesnt seem like a good article

Cactus Jax
09-09-2012, 10:15 PM
If the hall of fame is letting in those 60's Celtics role players cause of championships, then there's no doubt Robert Horry should be in. He has the most championships of any non-Celtics player ever with 7. Nash and Kidd are locks, and Jason Kidd has more credentials for a hall of famer than Reggie Miller does.

Cactus Jax
09-09-2012, 10:16 PM
Wheres Duncan's mention???

This doesnt seem like a good article

They don't mention Duncan because he's a total lock, they only wanted to mention questionable players.

xBulletproof
09-09-2012, 11:14 PM
They forgot to mention Robert Horry I think there is a chance for him to be in

Uh, what?

You're kidding, right?


If the hall of fame is letting in those 60's Celtics role players cause of championships, then there's no doubt Robert Horry should be in. He has the most championships of any non-Celtics player ever with 7.

You realize at that time the NBA had a whole whopping 8 teams, right? Who else were they going to vote in? :laugh:

Heisenberg
09-09-2012, 11:32 PM
Kidd is a lock? Ok, you guys have low standards.

Reggie Miller just got in the HOF.

Eleazar
09-10-2012, 12:09 AM
Reggie Miller just got in the HOF.

And? Miller is one of the best SG's ever. Kidd may be one of the best during a short window of time, but he isn't one of the best ever.

Cactus Jax
09-10-2012, 12:23 AM
Uh, what?

You're kidding, right?



You realize at that time the NBA had a whole whopping 8 teams, right? Who else were they going to vote in? :laugh:

I believe they've just voted a couple of them in the last couple years actually. I don't agree with it at all, it's just what the hall sees, so it won't surprise me if Horry is in eventually.

"Satch" Sanders was inducted in the hall of fame last year.

PR07
09-10-2012, 12:31 AM
And? Miller is one of the best SG's ever. Kidd may be one of the best during a short window of time, but he isn't one of the best ever.

He's #8 on this recent FoxSports.com Top 10 list. Not that it's the basketball bible, but I think you could reasonably say that anyone close to a Top 10 at their position is a hall of famer:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-point-guards-in-NBA-history#tab=photo-title=Jason+Kidd+%25281994-present%2529&photo=30049646


8
Jason Kidd (1994-present)

In 18 NBA seasons, Jason Kidd has gone from a dynamic, end-to-end dervish to a wise old head and money 3-point shooter. The Mavericks almost surely would not have won the 2011 title without his steady leadership, his savvy decision-making and his clutch shooting in the playoffs. The only NBA player to total 15,000 points, 7,000 rebounds and 10,000 assists, Kidd will try to add chemistry to a dysfunctional Knicks roster as he nears his 40th birthday.

Cactus Jax
09-10-2012, 12:35 AM
And? Miller is one of the best SG's ever. Kidd may be one of the best during a short window of time, but he isn't one of the best ever.

Maybe the all-time best shooter but hardly one of the best SG's ever, top 20 or so. Kidd has much less great compitition at PG. I think you're underestimating Kidd based off his last couple years.

CableKC
09-10-2012, 01:56 AM
No mention of Ray Allen?

Pingu
09-10-2012, 02:56 AM
Ginobili is a lock. Hill seems close too. I don't think anybody else on that list should make the Hall.

What is the argument in favor of T-Mac and Vince Carter (besides scoring lots of points)?

xtacy
09-10-2012, 03:00 AM
Kidd is a lock? Ok, you guys have low standards.

i hope you are joking.

some of the names in article made me laugh. almost all of those players should not be in the same sentence with hof.

15th parallel
09-10-2012, 08:14 AM
Kidd is a lock? Ok, you guys have low standards.

Huh? Yo' gotta be kiddin', right? No pun intended.

On the list, the only player I consider a sure-shot in the HoF is Manu Ginobili.

xtacy
09-10-2012, 08:56 AM
On the list, the only player I consider a sure-shot in the HoF is Manu Ginobili.

no doubt about it.

Coopdog23
09-10-2012, 09:33 AM
duncan, manu, kobe, nash

vnzla81
09-10-2012, 10:27 AM
It's Gasol a lock for the hall of fame? how about Tony Parker? what other players are out there that could be in the hall of fame other than the top guys?

vnzla81
09-10-2012, 10:31 AM
Uh, what?

You're kidding, right?



You realize at that time the NBA had a whole whopping 8 teams, right? Who else were they going to vote in? :laugh:

A case could be made to get Horry in, seven NBA championships and a bunch of clutch shots could put him in the HOF.

neosmndrew
09-10-2012, 10:37 AM
I still feel alot of these players are great, but being great shouldn't be enough to get you in the HoF.

Major Cold
09-10-2012, 10:45 AM
Manu= Maybe for FIBA, but NBA career alone
Grant Hill= yes college and borderline pro
McGrady and Carter= Maybe in the distant future, but not in this decade
Duncan= 1st ballot
Nash and Kidd= Maybe not 1st ballot, but close after


There are so many players who have not made it yet, that some that he listed don't even deserve to be mentioned.

And with Horry...He has a Hall of Fame story. But a Hall of Fame player, he is not.

Hicks
09-10-2012, 10:49 AM
Kidd, Nash, Kobe (maybe a stretch in terms of 'almost done' but he's played in the league a LONG time now), Ginobili, Allen, Pierce, Duncan, Garnett.

I could see Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups both getting in.

I don't really see McGrady and Carter as quite the same locks, but I could be wrong. They were certainly exciting scorers in their day but other than that and a couple of mountains of hype I'm not sure what else they have going for them. I don't remember Grant Hill back when he was a Piston, but my vague understanding was he was kind of like these two back in the day.

vnzla81
09-10-2012, 11:00 AM
Vince and Tmac are in IMO, they broke records and scored a bunch of points, Vince is probably in because of what I just pointed out but also because of his flying ability, what Dominique Wilkins had that Vince didn't?

And regarding Hill, I don't know if he is in, I think is going to take a while for him if he is ever going to get in.

Heisenberg
09-10-2012, 11:04 AM
If Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo can't get in I don't really see why Wallace has a case. Don't really see Hill's case either. Some stellar Detroit years, but the injuries. I wouldn't be upset about it but when I think Grant Hill I don't think Hall of Famer. Shame too, if he'd stayed healthy he's maybe like a top 30 all timer.

Major Cold
09-10-2012, 11:13 AM
Vince and Tmac are in IMO, they broke records and scored a bunch of points, Vince is probably in because of what I just pointed out but also because of his flying ability, what Dominique Wilkins had that Vince didn't?

And regarding Hill, I don't know if he is in, I think is going to take a while for him if he is ever going to get in.

Ok. Wilkins was more than a high flyer. And he was one of the best SF of all time. Top 15 IMO. Carter might make it to the HOF one day, but to put him on Wilkins level is just...wrong. Its wrong man. Wrong.

D. Wilkins 26668 total points
Vince Carter 21135 total points

D. Wilkins 7169 total rebounds
Vince Carter 5016 total rebounds


D. Wilkins 17 years
Vince Carter 18 years

Major Cold
09-10-2012, 11:13 AM
If Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo can't get in I don't really see why Wallace has a case. Don't really see Hill's case either. Some stellar Detroit years, but the injuries. I wouldn't be upset about it but when I think Grant Hill I don't think Hall of Famer. Shame too, if he'd stayed healthy he's maybe like a top 30 all timer.
Hill is in because of his college days.

vnzla81
09-10-2012, 11:19 AM
Ok. Wilkins was more than a high flyer. And he was one of the best SF of all time. Top 15 IMO. Carter might make it to the HOF one day, but to put him on Wilkins level is just...wrong. Its wrong man. Wrong.

D. Wilkins 26668 total points
Vince Carter 21135 total points

D. Wilkins 7169 total rebounds
Vince Carter 5016 total rebounds


D. Wilkins 17 years
Vince Carter 18 years





Don't get me wrong I wasn't comparing the players they both play different positions so there is not comparison, my point is that one of the things that ended up putting Wilkins in was his high flying ability and dunks, to me Vince has that going for him(plus the other numbers for sure) people remember ""Vinsanity"" and the best dunk contest ever by him.

Ace E.Anderson
09-10-2012, 11:33 AM
Uh? :confused:



edit: Just look at his career awards:

Rookie of the year, 10 NBA All Stars, 5 all NBA first teams, 4 NBA all defensive teams, 5th NBA assist leader, NBA Champion, 3rd place for regular season triple doubles, second in playoffs triple doubles, 3rd all time three point leader, yep more than enough numbers an awards for him to be in the Hall of Fame.

Don't forget he took the Nets..the NJ NETS.. to the NBA finals..TWICE! There's no way that J-Kidd ISN'T in. He may be 1st ballot with all of his credentials.

Hicks
09-10-2012, 11:49 AM
If Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo can't get in I don't really see why Wallace has a case.

I don't think Mutombo is eligible yet. Hard as it is to believe, he was still in the league as recently as the 2009 season with the Houston Rockets (he only played 9 games).

I think Mutombo will get in. At least I feel like he deserves it.

Eleazar
09-10-2012, 12:14 PM
It's Gasol a lock for the hall of fame? how about Tony Parker? what other players are out there that could be in the hall of fame other than the top guys?

If they aren't top players then no, they shouldn't even be considered. We are talking about the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Very Good.

BRushWithDeath
09-10-2012, 12:21 PM
I don't remember Grant Hill back when he was a Piston, but my vague understanding was he was kind of like these two back in the day.

I always thought Hill was more of an elite basketball player than an elite scorer. McGrady and Carter were scorers. Hill was a player.

Kind of like comparing Lebron and Kobe. Hill was more like Lebron. The better comparison is probably Pippen while Jordan was serving his gambling suspension in Birmingham. From the little I remember, Hill was the type of player who could lead a pretty good team in points, rebounds, and assists. Obviously those guys are exceedingly rare. And the ones who are capable of that usually end up in Springfield.

For what it is worth, I think McGrady and Carter also make it in eventually.

I also think the Basketball Hall of Fame is really stupid. A guy like Ralph Sampson deserves to be in a hall of fame. He doesn't deserve to be in the same hall of fame as Reggie Miller. Pro and amateur accomplishments should be separated.

Eleazar
09-10-2012, 12:29 PM
I also think the Basketball Hall of Fame is really stupid. A guy like Ralph Sampson deserves to be in a hall of fame. He doesn't deserve to be in the same hall of fame as Reggie Miller. Pro and amateur accomplishments should be separated.

I agree, I would like to see the NBA establish their own Hall of Fame.

Ransom
09-10-2012, 12:44 PM
Tyler Hansbrough and Christian Laettner have to be first ballot hall fame if Sampson is in right?

Heisenberg
09-10-2012, 12:51 PM
Tyler Hansbrough and Christian Laettner have to be first ballot hall fame if Sampson is in right?

If Hansbrough ever makes 4 straight ASGs putting up around 19/10.5/3/2 in those years then yes, he'll be in the HOF.

People need to stop acting like Sampson was some scrub in the NBA.

Trader Joe
09-10-2012, 12:54 PM
The problem with the basketball hall of fame is that there is absolutely no rhyme or reason to who gets in and who doesn't. If it is truly a "basketball" hall of fame, Hansbrough is a no brainer first ballot guy. ABA guys don't get in, college guys usually don't get in, NBA players get in for some reasons and don't for others.

Ransom
09-10-2012, 01:00 PM
If Hansbrough ever makes 4 straight ASGs putting up around 19/10.5/3/2 in those years then yes, he'll be in the HOF.

People need to stop acting like Sampson was some scrub in the NBA.

Fair enough, I apologize.

Speed
09-10-2012, 01:04 PM
Vince Carter getting in would be horrible to me, I'll readily admit biased against him. His pure numbers are deserved, but what he accomplished with the talent he had was inexcuseable to me. I think he had the ability to be one of the best ever and never seemed to work at it or apply his other worldly ability. I see him as a poor defender who refused to elevate his game beyond being a great scorer. I see him as a me guy who never made his teammates better. He seems selfish and soft. So, ya I admit looking on paper he would get in, but to watch him play outside of highlights, I wouldn't let him in. To me, he represents what I like least about the NBA. I can give you more details, but if you strongly disagree, you would probably not agree with my examples, any way.

Side note: I would put his dunk over Frederick Weiss in if you could put a single play into the Hall of Fame.

Major Cold
09-10-2012, 01:59 PM
It is a Hall of Fame player, not a Hall of Fame story. I don't care if they had a great dunk contest, or hit clutch shots as the 7th best player on their team.

Steve Kerr does not deserve to be in the HOF. He doesn't even deserve to be in 2k13.

Kid Minneapolis
09-10-2012, 02:15 PM
If Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo can't get in I don't really see why Wallace has a case. Don't really see Hill's case either. Some stellar Detroit years, but the injuries. I wouldn't be upset about it but when I think Grant Hill I don't think Hall of Famer. Shame too, if he'd stayed healthy he's maybe like a top 30 all timer.

You should be Hall-eligible for using Dikembe's full name in a post, and he should be a shoo-in on name-quality alone.

But in all seriousness...

- Kidd --- In like a dirty shirt, he's a legend.
- Carter/T-Mac --- man that's tough. Terrific athletes/scorers entertainers... but outside of those antics, neither one really accomplished much post-season success. It's mainly just scoring titles, dunk contests, and highlight reels, so in that respect they are sort of like Dominique... and he's in.... I personally don't feel like that's quite enough to get in, but if 'Nique is in (and he feels like he should be), then I spose a case could be made for the two cousins. I guess I put a lot of weight on post-season achievements, these guys got there here and there, but never really made a name for themselves, which is the opposite of Reg. The playoffs are where the Hall of Famers are made, imo...
- Grant Hill --- if he got in, like someone said, it would be on college credentials + somewhat of a good NBA career... he might have been a surefire if healthy, but he lost too much in his prime to lean on that alone. I'd say no to Hill.

Heisenberg
09-10-2012, 02:18 PM
I just want Mutombo to get in in the hopes that he'll give us a "WHO WANTS TO SEX MUTOMBO?!" to close his speech

Major Cold
09-10-2012, 02:20 PM
My goodness. Comparing Nique to Carter and McGrady is unbelievable. You put them in his era and they score 30% less cause you have hand checkers everywhere. You put Nique in the NBA today and you have the third best SF in the league.


Maybe I am just a Wilkins homer.

Kid Minneapolis
09-10-2012, 02:26 PM
I just want Mutombo to get in in the hopes that he'll give us a "WHO WANTS TO SEX MUTOMBO?!" to close his speech


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqf1BmN4Dag&feature=related

Kid Minneapolis
09-10-2012, 02:29 PM
My goodness. Comparing Nique to Carter and McGrady is unbelievable. You put them in his era and they score 30% less cause you have hand checkers everywhere. You put Nique in the NBA today and you have the third best SF in the league.


Maybe I am just a Wilkins homer.

I just don't have much recollection of Wilkins post-season achievements. I could be wrong on that, he was a tad before my time. Not doubting that he was better than both of those, he may have been, but in terms of playoff achievements, I sorta lump them in the same category. Playoffs is sort my measuring stick for HoF-candidacy. I don't remember too many epic playoff battles or performances for any of those guys other than a few here and there, which weren't enough to really qualify them amongst the other champs or playoff performers.

vnzla81
09-10-2012, 02:30 PM
My goodness. Comparing Nique to Carter and McGrady is unbelievable. You put them in his era and they score 30% less cause you have hand checkers everywhere. You put Nique in the NBA today and you have the third best SF in the league.


Maybe I am just a Wilkins homer.

To me Tmac and Vince had more tools than Dominique, I think they score the same amount of points in either era and yeah you are probably a Wilkins homer not that's anything wrong with that :)

vnzla81
09-10-2012, 02:48 PM
Here is a comparison between Reggie, Tmac and Vince:


Reggie awards and achievements:



Points 25,279

Miller played more games with the same team than all but two players in NBA history, John Stockton and Karl Malone of the Utah Jazz. Only five other players have played in more total regular season NBA games than Miller. Over the course of his career, Miller scored 25,279 points, with an average of 18.2 points per game. He shot .471 from the field, .395 from 3-point range and .888 from the free throw line.
Miller made the All-NBA Third Team three times throughout his career and received his only MVP votes in 1998 and 2000.
Miller was the first Indiana Pacer to start in an NBA All-Star Game, doing so in 1995. He was also selected to the team in 1990, 1996, 1998 and 2000.
Miller retired as the all-time NBA leader in total 3-point field goals made (2,560) (broken February 10, 2011 by Ray Allen of the Boston Celtics).
Miller led the league twice in three-point field goals made (1992–93, 1996–97). He led the league in free throw percentage five times, including his last season.
Miller made a three-pointer in 68 consecutive games from November 15, 1996 to April 6, 1997.
Miller led the league in free throw percentage five times (1990–91, 1998–99, 2000–01, 2001–02, 2004–05)[19]
Miller is one of only five members in the 50–40–90 Club of players who shot 50% or better from the field, 40% or better from three-point range, and 90% or better from the free throw line in a single season while also achieving the NBA league minimum number of makes in each category. Larry Bird, Mark Price, Steve Nash, and Dirk Nowitzki are the only other players to achieve this feat.

Tmac awards and achievements:



Points 18,381

NBA career achievements

2× NBA Scoring Champion: 2003 (32.1), 2004 (28.0)
7× NBA All-Star: 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007
7× All-NBA:
First Team: 2002, 2003
Second Team: 2001, 2004, 2007
Third Team: 2005, 2008
NBA Most Improved Player Award: 2001

Vince Carter achievements and awards:



Points 21,135

8× NBA All-Star selection: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 (did not play in 2002 due to injury)
Olympic gold medal: 2000
2× All-NBA:
Second Team: 2001
Third Team: 2000
NBA Slam Dunk Champion: 2000
NBA All-Rookie First Team: 1999
NBA Rookie of the Year Award: 1999
The Sporting News NBA Rookie of the Year: 1999[74]


By looking at the numbers I think those two guys make it, maybe not 1st ballot but they will make it.

Kid Minneapolis
09-10-2012, 02:58 PM
Yea, but Reggie has a playoff moment list a mile long and was a fixture in deep playoff runs for over a decade. He made the HoF largely on his playoff heroics. That stuff doesn't show up in those "achievement lists".

Sandman21
09-10-2012, 03:40 PM
Exactly. What did McGrady ever do in the playoffs? Well, besides losing? Vince's playoff accolades, while still longer than McGrady, since Vince actually got past the first round a few times, still pales in comparison.

kent beckley
09-10-2012, 07:11 PM
13 points in 33 seconds

Sandman21
09-10-2012, 07:34 PM
13 points in 33 seconds

What did McGrady do in the PLAYOFFS?

kent beckley
09-10-2012, 08:24 PM
28.5 points per game in the PLAYOFFS

Sandman21
09-10-2012, 08:38 PM
28.5 points per game in the first round of the PLAYOFFS
Fixed. How many points did he average in the second round or further in the playoffs?

Oh wait....

alamo1978
09-10-2012, 09:11 PM
Jamal Mashburn?
All-Star Team
2nd team all NBA
Two 50-point games
Prominent scorer
One of 3 players to average 20, 6, and 5 (Kibe and KG)

Just a thought and I didn't see him mentioned.

naptownmenace
09-13-2012, 12:14 PM
I'm surprised Chris Weber wasn't mentioned. I think he's definitely an on the bubble HOF.

Jason Kidd is a lock. Not only is he a lock, he'll be inducted 1st ballot. He was the undisputed best PG in the NBA for many years and he's played in 3 Finals (2 with New Jersey) and won a championship.

circlecitysportsfan
09-14-2012, 02:34 PM
And? Miller is one of the best SG's ever. Kidd may be one of the best during a short window of time, but he isn't one of the best ever.

I don't know how to reply to this other to say you must be very young.

Eleazar
09-14-2012, 03:23 PM
I don't know how to reply to this other to say you must be very young.

No, just not enamored with Kidd.

Ace E.Anderson
09-14-2012, 03:53 PM
No, just not enamored with Kidd.

In spite of one's personal feelings about Kidd, the guy is definitely an all-time top 5 PG.

Magic
Stockton
Thomas

Who's next that is without a doubt better than J-Kidd?

Ransom
09-14-2012, 04:41 PM
Just IMHO, Bob Cousy and Oscar Robertson (I know, he played 2 guard too) are by most measures definitely better than Kidd, but yes, he's definitely 1st ballot HOF.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-14-2012, 05:24 PM
13 points in 33 seconds

Thought that was a regular season game

hackashaq
09-14-2012, 05:42 PM
Just IMHO, Bob Cousy and Oscar Robertson (I know, he played 2 guard too) are by most measures definitely better than Kidd, but yes, he's definitely 1st ballot HOF.

It depends if by 'the best' you mean 'the greatest' --- dominance in his era, career achievements, stats and such.
If so, then yes. In that case, I'd also add Jerry West to the list above Kidd, West played PG a lot.
And you have to add Nash too, 2xMVP after all.

But in terms of overall quality as a player, I think he has as good a case as any at the #2 spot behind Magic.

kent beckley
09-14-2012, 06:15 PM
I would take Kidd over Nash. Kidd was a great 2-way player. Nash is and always was a horrible defender.

kent beckley
09-14-2012, 06:17 PM
Seriously, anyone that doubts Kidds credentials has only been watching the NBA for 5 years. There is no other possible explanation. Kidd dragged Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin to the Finals, Twice!!! He had several good years in Dallas and Phoenix before that.

ChicagoJ
09-14-2012, 06:40 PM
I just don't have much recollection of Wilkins post-season achievements. I could be wrong on that, he was a tad before my time. Not doubting that he was better than both of those, he may have been, but in terms of playoff achievements, I sorta lump them in the same category. Playoffs is sort my measuring stick for HoF-candidacy. I don't remember too many epic playoff battles or performances for any of those guys other than a few here and there, which weren't enough to really qualify them amongst the other champs or playoff performers.

Watch the shootout with Bird from the '87 playoffs on NBA Classics. Dominique was a stud on a very good but not great team that just didn't have enough firepower with Celtics era coming to an end, the Jordan era about to begin, and the Pistons era crammed in between. And that's just the EC, as the Lakers era lasted through all of those. That's not Dominique's fault, and as is common some people are confusing team success with the quality of the individual player. It took Russell and an army of Hall of Famers to defeat Chamberlain and the Warriors, yet there are plenty that will argue that Russell was better than Wilt? Same flaw, and it doesn't take away from what either Dominique or Wilt or others accomplished even if they had less to work with.

ilive4sports
09-14-2012, 07:12 PM
McGrady is an interesting case. He was arguably the best player in the league, but never had the post season success, although in Orlando I think it was more due to a **** team around him. Houston though, him and Yao should have made a lot of noise in the playoffs. And then the injuries. Man, I would have loved to see more of Tmac in his prime. Amazing player. Really don't know if he will get in the HOF though. i'm leaning towards no.

Vince Carter wasn't as dominate, but he had more post season success (not much more) and performed for a longer time. I'm leaning towards no here too.

Chris Webber probably wasn't mentioned cause he is already retired. I think I would put him in though. He was a legit 20 and 10 guy for his career. Great passer too. He is a 5 time All Star, made 5 All NBA teams (1 first, 3 seconds, 1 third), won a rebounding title, and while the Kings never won the West, Webber did lead them deep into the playoffs. That early 2000s Kings team was damn good. He did have his fair share of injuries, but even after his microfacture surgery he was still a damn good player.

croz24
09-14-2012, 09:53 PM
IMO only an idiot thinks McGrady deserves to be even mentioned for the Hall. Never led his team anywhere, and after the age of 23, he became one of the most inefficient and worst chuckers in NBA history.

spreedom
09-14-2012, 10:31 PM
Kidd and Nash are first ballot Hall of Famers, easily. Both have carried mediocre teams to deep playoff runs and led the league in assists (and are in the top 10 for career assists, with both likely finishing in the top 5). Not to mention Kidd's championship and Nash's two MVPs.

Pau Gasol and Grant Hill are no-doubters for me, too. It's not the NBA Hall, it's the Basketball Hall, which means you have to consider achievements in international play (Gasol) and college (Hill).

Really?
09-14-2012, 11:00 PM
Why isn't Ray Allen on this list.

I did not read the whole top part, but the only one I think is a lock is Manu, Vince was really strong for a time period but really sucky for one as well. Grant was more of just good for a long time, not really great, and Billups is a big question mark I think, he has a chance but I doubt it is a clear cut thing.

The Third Cross
09-15-2012, 01:34 AM
Grant Hill, Ben Wallace. Manu Ginobili, and Marcus Camby should make it.

kent beckley
09-15-2012, 10:06 AM
Ray Allen would be considered an absolute lock. This article was looking at guys on the fringe.

kent beckley
09-15-2012, 10:22 AM
Another guy to think about, if he hasn't already been mentioned is Antawn Jamison.

Naismeth and Wooden award winner in college
2-time NBA All-Star
6th man winner
19,000 career points 7,700 rebounds

Right now he is definitely on the outside looking in. He would need to be a starter/sixth man over the next couple of years on at least one Lakers championship team, and a couple of deep memorable playoff runs. He would need to clear 22,000 points, and get close to 10,000 rebounds.

Again, this is doubtful, but he has his college success to fall back on. Plus he was on the 2006 US Team.

Eleazar
09-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Another guy to think about, if he hasn't already been mentioned is Antawn Jamison.

Naismeth and Wooden award winner in college
2-time NBA All-Star
6th man winner
19,000 career points 7,700 rebounds

Right now he is definitely on the outside looking in. He would need to be a starter/sixth man over the next couple of years on at least one Lakers championship team, and a couple of deep memorable playoff runs. He would need to clear 22,000 points, and get close to 10,000 rebounds.

Again, this is doubtful, but he has his college success to fall back on. Plus he was on the 2006 US Team.

Jamison shouldn't be in for what he did in the pros. College maybe, but pros he was nothing special.

croz24
09-15-2012, 02:47 PM
Just reading some of the names being considered on here only confirms the Basketball Hall of Fame is a joke compared to the other major sports.

Ace E.Anderson
09-15-2012, 04:00 PM
Why isn't Ray Allen on this list.

I did not read the whole top part, but the only one I think is a lock is Manu, Vince was really strong for a time period but really sucky for one as well. Grant was more of just good for a long time, not really great, and Billups is a big question mark I think, he has a chance but I doubt it is a clear cut thing.

Hill would get in before Billups. Hill had a great run at Duke which includes 2 championships, and then he was one of the best players in the league up until he got hurt. Not saying he's a lock, but someone with a great college career and a really good start to an NBA career that was derailed by injuries is more likely than a late bloomer who does have a ring and a finals MVP but hasn't stood out for much else through our his career.

kent beckley
09-16-2012, 08:06 AM
Just reading some of the names being considered on here only confirms the Basketball Hall of Fame is a joke compared to the other major sports.

You do understand that the basketball hall o fame is different than the other major sports don't you? The football hall of fame is for the NFL. The baseball hall o fame is for the MLB. Basketball has no such affiliation. That is how the owner of Nike got into the hall. You can call it a joke if you want to, but comparing it to other sports is apples and oranges. But you knew this. Anyone that calls someone an idiot certainly can't be one.

Eleazar
09-17-2012, 08:27 AM
You do understand that the basketball hall o fame is different than the other major sports don't you? The football hall of fame is for the NFL. The baseball hall o fame is for the MLB. Basketball has no such affiliation. That is how the owner of Nike got into the hall. You can call it a joke if you want to, but comparing it to other sports is apples and oranges. But you knew this. Anyone that calls someone an idiot certainly can't be one.

Even so many of the names being mentioned are a joke. I mean seriously Antwan Jamison, why should he even be in this conversation? As far as I remember, I don't even remember him in college, and his pro career has been nice, but hardly noteworthy in the history of basketball. The Hall of Fame is for the all-time greats, and those who had a huge impact on the game in some way. Jamison is a nice player, but he wasn't an all-time great college player, he isn't an all-time great pro player, and he didn't have a huge impact on the game. He was just a good player for his time, but in the grand scheme of things isn't a big deal.

hackashaq
09-18-2012, 03:04 AM
Chris Webber probably wasn't mentioned cause he is already retired. I think I would put him in though. He was a legit 20 and 10 guy for his career. Great passer too. He is a 5 time All Star, made 5 All NBA teams (1 first, 3 seconds, 1 third), won a rebounding title, and while the Kings never won the West, Webber did lead them deep into the playoffs. That early 2000s Kings team was damn good. He did have his fair share of injuries, but even after his microfacture surgery he was still a damn good player.

They did win the title in 2002... oh wait.. :rolleyes:

naptownmenace
09-18-2012, 10:38 AM
Hill would get in before Billups. Hill had a great run at Duke which includes 2 championships, and then he was one of the best players in the league up until he got hurt. Not saying he's a lock, but someone with a great college career and a really good start to an NBA career that was derailed by injuries is more likely than a late bloomer who does have a ring and a finals MVP but hasn't stood out for much else through our his career.

If you change one or two words around, you could be describing Ralph Sampson. It took him a really long time to get into the HOF. It could take just a while for Hill to get in too although his NBA career was much better in the 6 years or so of his prime.

Sookie
09-18-2012, 01:54 PM
The only players I'd definitely put in from that list are Manu (this isn't even a question) and Chauncey. And I think Fisher (yes Fisher. I think basketball history is going to look back very fondly on Fisher. And is there a point guard, other than Magic, that's won as much as him? Yes I know he played with Kobe, but the Lakers don't win without Fisher either.), Camby, Carter and Rip should get some consideration.

As other's have said, Kidd, Ray and Nash are locks, as they should be.

On a side note, I'm actually kind of interested to see what they do with the women. Standards seem to be quite a bit higher, but they just let Teresa Edwards in..which sets an interesting precedent. Particularly with the level of accomplishments some of the soon to be retiring women have. (Bird, Jackson, Catchings, Hammon, even Cash etc..)

PacersHomer
09-18-2012, 08:04 PM
Damn some people just want to let everyone in the Hall of Fame. It's a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of Very Good For A Long Time.