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naptownmenace
09-07-2012, 09:03 AM
I had always thought that Reggie Miller retired because of the immaturity of his teammates and yesterday it was confirmed.

In the NBATV special, Looking Back at Reggie, Reggie stated that the brawl and the constant bickering between Ron Artest and Jermaine O'Neal lead him into retirement. He stated that the young players on the team were more interested in having a good time than they were on working on their game and studying the playbook. Most importantly, he said that it was the first time in his life that "basketball wasn't fun".

He did praise Al Harrington, Jermaine O'Neal, and Stephen Jackson for having good work ethic so I figure he was pointing the finger more at Ron Artest and Jamaal Tinsley as being the ring-leaders of the Knucklehead brigade. That team also had David Harrison on it who's knucklehead status is certified. Maybe Fred Jones was one of the immature players too since the Pacers made no efforts to re-sign him when his contract was up.

I found it interesting that Reggie said that if he had been playing in the game against the Pistons the night of the Brawl, he thinks he would've been able to prevent things from getting out of hand. I don't know if I agree with him on that but it was surprising to hear that he thought that.

This was the most insightful interview Reggie has had regarding the Brawl and his final season. If you haven't seen you definitely should. I think the entire show, Looking Back at Reggie is online at NBA.com. I didn't see any threads regard the program so maybe this could be the official reaction thread for the show too. He talked in depth about his career, playing on Dream Team II, his rivalry with the Knicks and Michael Jordan, and the touching conversation he had with his father after finding out he had been accepted into the Hall of Fame.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/hall_of_fame/2012/09/06/20120906_hof_press_miller.nba/#

owl
09-07-2012, 09:11 AM
I had always thought that Reggie Miller retired because of the immaturity of his teammates and yesterday it was confirmed.

In the NBATV special, Looking Back at Reggie, Reggie stated that the brawl and the constant bickering between Ron Artest and Jermaine O'Neal lead him into retirement. He stated that the young players on the team were more interested in having a good time than they were on working on their game and studying the playbook. Most importantly, he said that it was the first time in his life that "basketball wasn't fun".

He did praise Al Harrington, Jermaine O'Neal, and Stephen Jackson for having good work ethic so I figure he was pointing the finger more at Ron Artest and Jamaal Tinsley as being the ring-leaders of the Knucklehead brigade. That team also had David Harrison on it who's knucklehead status is certified. Maybe Fred Jones was one of the immature players too since the Pacers made no efforts to re-sign him when his contract was up.

I found it interesting that Reggie said that if he had been playing in the game against the Pistons the night of the Brawl, he thinks he would've been able to prevent things from getting out of hand. I don't know if I agree with him on that but it was surprising to hear that he thought that.

This was the most insightful interview Reggie has had regarding the Brawl and his final season. If you haven't seen you definitely should. I think the entire show, Looking Back at Reggie is online at NBA.com. I didn't see any threads regard the program so maybe this could be the official reaction thread for the show too. He talked in depth about his career, playing on Dream Team II, his rivalry with the Knicks and Michael Jordan, and the touching conversation he had with his father after finding out he had been accepted into the Hall of Fame.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/hall_of_fame/2012/09/06/20120906_hof_press_miller.nba/#


A failure of management and some of the players. Sad to hear. Ron Artest and Jamal....You just cannot have more than one knucklehead at the MOST on any team. And preferably none. That team had 2-3.

Since86
09-07-2012, 09:28 AM
There you guys go again, talking about team chemistry and team leaders. Those things aren't important. Just stop. /green

MillerTime
09-07-2012, 09:28 AM
There was a special on NBA TV...Miller hated that Artest and Oneal were always bickering with one another. They both had a chip on their shoulders as to whos team it is...Miller tried sticking in their heads that if they could get along, they could win many championships...Miller mentioned that, at the time, Artest was the best perimeter defender and Oneal was one of the best inside defenders...

so sad how the maturity level of our team put us back about 10 years.

Coopdog23
09-07-2012, 09:30 AM
really the brawl, but yes that was included as well

naptownmenace
09-07-2012, 10:31 AM
really the brawl, but yes that was included as well

I think the point he was making, IMO, is that the team was immature before the brawl but it wasn't until after the brawl that the immaturity of the team at that time really started to wear on him. I think he retired because he felt the Pacers weren't going to be able to win a championship by moving forward with JO and Artest. So sad.

imawhat
09-07-2012, 10:46 AM
At the time, I remember Reggie saying he was retiring after missing clutch free throws at the end of a game. That was the moment he knew he didn't have it anymore.

Now we know the truth.


Also, I've heard people discuss the fights between JO and Artest, but is this the first time it's been publicly acknowledged? Reggie told it exactly the way I'd been told.

Eddie Gill
09-07-2012, 11:16 AM
Anyone know where one could find that special online?

Major Cold
09-07-2012, 11:19 AM
I am not surprised. This was assumed anyway. But for him to disclose solidifies my opinion on JO. I never want to see his uniform again. On a fan, but especially in a rafter at the Fieldhouse.

naptownmenace
09-07-2012, 11:39 AM
It's cut up into different videos but I think the entire program is on NBA.com. Try the video link below and the videos should be listed below. The comments by Jalen Rose are pretty funny. I still love him as a player.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2012/09/04/20120904_Reggie_Rose_jackson.nba/

PR07
09-07-2012, 11:46 AM
Reggie had mentioned this at some point previously, maybe not in as much detail, because the JO-Artest bickering isn't news to me.

Phree Refill
09-07-2012, 12:10 PM
I don't know when the first official report came out that there might be in-fighting between Jermaine and Ronnie but the first time I ever caught wind of it was actually from the series "Beyond the Glory" that used to be on Fox Sports. They did an episode on Reggie. I remember specifically one part of the interview where Reggie is saying something something along the lines of how hard it is to get the younger guys to "play the right way" amongst other things. It was more the way he said it that kind of struck me as odd considering that this particular episode aired during the spring of 2004 which was when we were just wrapping up the best regular season in franchise history. The team was playing so well that I couldn't really imagine more right of a way for them to be playing. Granted, I'm sure the interview was taped in early 2004 or late 2003. Still, prior to seeing that I hadn't heard previously of any internal issues granted I was also only 16 at the time and didn't pay much attention to that type of stuff. Interestingly enough, 7 months after the episode aired the brawl happened. So it would seem to indicate the infighting had been going on for a while for Reggie to mention it in an interview in late '03/early '04. Considering we acquired Artest mid 2002 the fighting probably began not long after he got here.

Bball
09-07-2012, 12:17 PM
Don't forget, in Reggie's role as commentator he said (and I'm paraphrasing) "People think Ron Artest is the bad egg in the lockerroom but he isn't". So that led to the unanswered question "Who was?"

I don't think it's necessarily safe to infer that Artest and Tinsley were necessarily the targets of his bad work ethic comment.

Me personally, I came to believe Tinsley was the 'bad egg'. Maybe in retrospect Reggie has come to see Artest as a bad egg in the lockerroom too. Or maybe he's just trying to forget Artest. I also remember Reggie praising Artest and saying he wished he could have played alongside Artest when he was younger (in his prime) because he thought he could've helped Artest handle some things.

Bball
09-07-2012, 12:24 PM
Of course the thing you knew with Artest is that he's not quite 'stable' (in a word) but you also knew he could be very good for the team. So why was JO picking at him or allowing Artest to get under his skin? JO should've had the maturity to understand you need to treat Artest differently. Even if he had to bite his tongue. It's about what's good for the team in the end.

OTOH, how long did TPTB think they could keep 'fire and ice' together and not have it blow up in their faces?

Sandman21
09-07-2012, 12:40 PM
Reggie had mentioned this at some point previously, maybe not in as much detail, because the JO-Artest bickering isn't news to me.

His first night as a TNT commentator, so day 1 of the 2005-2006 season.

Coopdog23
09-07-2012, 01:22 PM
I think the point he was making, IMO, is that the team was immature before the brawl but it wasn't until after the brawl that the immaturity of the team at that time really started to wear on him. I think he retired because he felt the Pacers weren't going to be able to win a championship by moving forward with JO and Artest. So sad.

yeah, he said the respect level and the responsibility was gone. very sad that he retired because of that

ChicagoJ
09-07-2012, 01:47 PM
I am not surprised. This was assumed anyway. But for him to disclose solidifies my opinion on JO. I never want to see his uniform again. On a fan, but especially in a rafter at the Fieldhouse.

What did I miss? I've never seen Reggie say a bad thing about JO and Reggie was always talking about passing on the torch to JO during the twilight of his career.

He said Artest wasn't the only bad seed, but he never said JO was a bad seed. Or did I miss something?

And let's not pretend the turmoil started with the brawl. The end of the previous season, with Ron having meltdowns in each of the Miami and Detroit series (what's plural for series?). Or the previous season, the flagrant-foul epidemic when Isiah lost control of Ron.

Its not hard to believe that JO, Reggie, and everybody else on the team just got tired of Ron's regular retirements, fights, challenges, great days where he was the best teammate around, tantrums, etc. Adding Tinsley and Harrison (and perhaps Fred Jones, who knows?) probably didn't help and trading Al for Stephen Jackson was like adding lighter fluid to an already hot fire.

But the reason Reggie retired is because Reggie just wasn't very good his last season. Yeah, he scored his age once. He was very inconsistent that year, and the dozen or so great games out of 82 were nice reminders of the player he had been, but not much more.

McKeyFan
09-07-2012, 02:03 PM
I didn't realize Reggie wasn't there for the brawl. Why was he out?

Unclebuck
09-07-2012, 02:07 PM
I think it is wrong to assume Reggie was only talking about certain members of the team and not others. Better to just paint with a broad brush and say the whole team

Bball
09-07-2012, 02:22 PM
I didn't realize Reggie wasn't there for the brawl. Why was he out?

My memory seems to be telling me it was a hand or wrist injury that sidelined him for the first few games.

MyFavMartin
09-07-2012, 03:05 PM
The brawl brings up so many thoughts.

1. Artest shouldn't have been laying on the bench. Part of this comes on the coaches and veterans on the bench. But the guy is crazy, so there's only so much one can do with a guy that big and strong.

2. Refs should have had more control of the game and nipped the chippiness late in a game where the end was already decided.

3. Can't dismiss Big Ben acting like a baby.

4. That team was doing spectacularly well at that point in the season and looked like the destined NBA champs, so winning cures a lot of egoes.

5. The detroit fan was drunk and security was a joke, but yes, Artest shouldn't do what he did. It was a cup and you're getting paid millions of dollars. Point it out to security and/or just go to the locker room.

6. Have to respect Jackson for backing up a teammate.

7. Never heard anything bad on Fred Jones maturity wise. The guy couldn't drive to his right, but maybe he should have worked on that. He did bring it after the suspensions were handed out and the team was short staffed.

8. Stern thought about allowing Artest back for the playoffs. That would have been nice.

9. Bird backing up Artest to prop up his trade value was as genius as Ronnie is crazy.

10. ESPN sportscasters backed up what the Pacers did that nice and then flip-flopped the next day.

McKeyFan
09-07-2012, 03:08 PM
Seems like he would still be there, in a suit.

McKeyFan
09-07-2012, 03:11 PM
The brawl brings up so many thoughts.

6. Have to respect Jackson for backing up a teammate.

I don't have to.

If Jackson pulls him back down to the court instead of delivering the first actual punches, we possibly get a ring that year.

Bball
09-07-2012, 03:15 PM
Seems like he would still be there, in a suit.

Oh... he was there in a suit. In fact IIRC he got suspended for leaving the bench in the melee himself. I think his point is that if he was playing that night he could've seen/felt the escalation and defused it somehow. Whether he means he knew how to calm Artest down, would've asked Rick to sub Artest out, would've diverted Artest's attention... I dunno....

BillS
09-07-2012, 03:16 PM
Seems like he would still be there, in a suit.

He was ON THE BENCH but not ON THE FLOOR.

He got a game suspension for being off the bench trying to break up one of the situations (if I remember correctly).

He is saying if he'd been in the game he could have done something before it all blew up.

naptownmenace
09-07-2012, 03:25 PM
My memory seems to be telling me it was a hand or wrist injury that sidelined him for the first few games.

Yes, he broke his left hand in the preseason that year and that sidelined him for several weeks. He missed the rest of the preseason and 16 regular season games. He kind of had to rush his way back from injury because of the aftermath of the brawl.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/pacers/2004-10-29-miller-hand_x.htm

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-07-2012, 03:29 PM
Lets not forget that BS suspension for leaving the bench. Because its not like both teams entire roster left the bench or anything.

Grover
09-07-2012, 03:41 PM
IIRC, Reggie tried to get Artest to straighten up before the cup hit him. Didn't Reggie pull the headphones off of Artest's head when he was clowning with Mark and Slick?

ChicagoJ
09-07-2012, 04:13 PM
I think it is wrong to assume Reggie was only talking about certain members of the team and not others. Better to just paint with a broad brush and say the whole team

Fair enough. One of the most dysfunctional (yet talented) teams ever, so there is plenty of blame to go around.

naptownmenace
09-07-2012, 04:30 PM
I really brought all this up because I was surprised that Reggie just threw them all under the bus the way he did. I don't blame him and I had already thought that the immaturity of players on the team was a major factor in his sudden retirement announcement. He was under contract for 1 more year so I it had to be something other than just not being able to compete on the floor. He showed he could still compete and stepped his game up after JO went down with the shoulder injury and missed the rest of the regular season.

However, after Reggie made the statements about the immaturity of the team, he went on to describe how proud he was of the way the team battled through injuries to make the playoffs and advance to the 2nd round. He was asked about the final game of his career and what was going through his mind when it happened. His answer was so good, I'm just gonna say watch the video. It almost brought tears of joy to my eyes and made me proud of him and what he accomplished in his career.

Major Cold
09-07-2012, 04:35 PM
What did I miss? I've never seen Reggie say a bad thing about JO and Reggie was always talking about passing on the torch to JO during the twilight of his career.

He said Artest wasn't the only bad seed, but he never said JO was a bad seed. Or did I miss something?

And let's not pretend the turmoil started with the brawl. The end of the previous season, with Ron having meltdowns in each of the Miami and Detroit series (what's plural for series?). Or the previous season, the flagrant-foul epidemic when Isiah lost control of Ron.

Its not hard to believe that JO, Reggie, and everybody else on the team just got tired of Ron's regular retirements, fights, challenges, great days where he was the best teammate around, tantrums, etc. Adding Tinsley and Harrison (and perhaps Fred Jones, who knows?) probably didn't help and trading Al for Stephen Jackson was like adding lighter fluid to an already hot fire.

But the reason Reggie retired is because Reggie just wasn't very good his last season. Yeah, he scored his age once. He was very inconsistent that year, and the dozen or so great games out of 82 were nice reminders of the player he had been, but not much more.


The glamouring for the team king title was childish. And maybe I am reading between the lines. Or maybe Reggie has a way of shedding light without racking teammates through the mud. But if JO was half the leader of Reggie then I don't think the collapse would have happened so briskly. I didn't see Mark and Reggie glamouring for some fake crown that meant nothing without a ring. JO was a child in his character, and couldn't take pressure.

Sure he didn't get a flagrant at the end of the game. But he did cower, fade. And throw hissy fits.

naptownmenace
09-07-2012, 05:48 PM
The glamouring for the team king title was childish. And maybe I am reading between the lines. Or maybe Reggie has a way of shedding light without racking teammates through the mud. But if JO was half the leader of Reggie then I don't think the collapse would have happened so briskly. I didn't see Mark and Reggie glamouring for some fake crown that meant nothing without a ring. JO was a child in his character, and couldn't take pressure.

Sure he didn't get a flagrant at the end of the game. But he did cower, fade. And throw hissy fits.

For the faults that JO had I still admired the way he battled and approached the game before and during games. During Reggie's final season he was on a tear and playing great basketball despite an injured foot. That was the same year he scored 55 points and then checked out of the game so he wouldn't break Reggie's record. He was playing so well (averaging a career high 25.1 points per game) and then he was injured on a flagrant foul and missed the last 24 games of the season with a torn ligament in his shoulder.

JO played with heart and I think Reggie seemed to get along with him - he said in the interview that JO's locker was right next to his - but the bickering with Artest was a serious issue that wore him out. Still JO was better than people give him credit until the injuries started piling up.

Eleazar
09-07-2012, 07:20 PM
For the faults that JO had I still admired the way he battled and approached the game before and during games. During Reggie's final season he was on a tear and playing great basketball despite an injured foot. That was the same year he scored 55 points and then checked out of the game so he wouldn't break Reggie's record. He was playing so well (averaging a career high 25.1 points per game) and then he was injured on a flagrant foul and missed the last 24 games of the season with a torn ligament in his shoulder.

JO played with heart and I think Reggie seemed to get along with him - he said in the interview that JO's locker was right next to his - but the bickering with Artest was a serious issue that wore him out. Still JO was better than people give him credit until the injuries started piling up.

O'Neal's star shined bright, it just didn't shine for very long.

CableKC
09-07-2012, 07:38 PM
Given his conditioning, his competitive spirit and will to put it on the floor 110% of the time; it makes me sad to know that he walked away from the game NOT BECAUSE of injury, age or anything that he had no real control over....but because his Teammates' ( whoever it was ) immaturity and the on/off court issues that it created. Reggie could easily have played a few more years.

DangerGranger3pointranger
09-07-2012, 08:45 PM
I also watched the special, it did sound like he threw JO and Artest under the bus.

DangerGranger3pointranger
09-07-2012, 08:47 PM
Yes, he ran up into the stands to pull back Artest from punching that fan. Total BS suspension though.
He was ON THE BENCH but not ON THE FLOOR.

He got a game suspension for being off the bench trying to break up one of the situations (if I remember correctly).

He is saying if he'd been in the game he could have done something before it all blew up.

NapTonius Monk
09-07-2012, 09:14 PM
Oh... he was there in a suit. In fact IIRC he got suspended for leaving the bench in the melee himself. I think his point is that if he was playing that night he could've seen/felt the escalation and defused it somehow. Whether he means he knew how to calm Artest down, would've asked Rick to sub Artest out, would've diverted Artest's attention... I dunno....But it wasn't so much the oncourt shove as it was the beer hitting Artest + Jackson in the stands adding fuel/defense to the situation. I've never cared for the argument about Artest laying on the table. He walked away from Wallace. The drunk fan likely would have thrwon that beer at Artest whether he was standing, sitting, or on the table. Once that happened, there wouldn't have been anything Reggie could have done. Ron was in such a rage, and was in the stands so quick, he would have just bowled over Reggie like he did everyone else who tried to stop him.

BlueNGold
09-07-2012, 09:59 PM
I don't have to.

If Jackson pulls him back down to the court instead of delivering the first actual punches, we possibly get a ring that year.

I blame Jack more than Artest. If Jack had pulled him out of the stands the entire thing would have been a 30 game suspension for Artest and that would be it. Yet...I suspect that team was going to implode anyway...so what the hey...

BlueNGold
09-07-2012, 10:02 PM
Dale Davis also said they were immature. It wasn't limited to one of those guys either. They were all immature, one was a hot head, a couple were borderline insane.

It was an explosion looking for a spark.

J7F
09-07-2012, 10:05 PM
Do you guys not remember it being known that Artest and JO fought over whose team it was? I believe this came out around the time Ron requested the trade and we were looking for a suitor?

I understand it's news that it was a major reason Reggie called it quits... But it seems like a lot of posters are surprised to hear about the squabbling over who's team it was...

And Major Cold... I can assure you that JO WANTED to give you, a Pacers fan, a championship... He didn't want to give one to the Lakers fans... He didn't want to give one to the Knicks fans... He wanted to give you one with his whole heart... He just didn't have what it took in the long run because of injuries and low leadership abilities... But JO bled blue and gold and always hoped he could take us to the promised land... I wish you could have had the conversation I had with him once... He very genuinely loved us all and wanted to give us the world..

Sandman21
09-07-2012, 10:06 PM
The drunk fan likely would have thrwon that beer at Artest whether he was standing, sitting, or on the table.

Reggie actually probably kept Ron under control when the FIRST cup hit him (watch the FS MW broadcast whenever it pops up on Youtube again), it was the second cup that triggered him.

BlueNGold
09-07-2012, 10:14 PM
Do you guys not remember it being known that Artest and JO fought over whose team it was? I believe this came out around the time Ron requested the trade and we were looking for a suitor?

I understand it's news that it was a major reason Reggie called it quits... But it seems like a lot of posters are surprised to hear about the squabbling over who's team it was...

And Major Cold... I can assure you that JO WANTED to give you, a Pacers fan, a championship... He didn't want to give one to the Lakers fans... He didn't want to give one to the Knicks fans... He wanted to give you one with his whole heart... He just didn't have what it took in the long run because of injuries and low leadership abilities... But JO bled blue and gold and always hoped he could take us to the promised land... I wish you could have had the conversation I had with him once... He very genuinely loved us all and wanted to give us the world..

Very good post and I believe it all. He wasn't as immature as most of the other guys on the team. His main downfall was his body which simply couldn't take the rigors of the NBA. He probably had just as much pure talent or maybe even more than Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan....at his peak. The problem is, his peak didn't last much more than a couple years. He had many good years, but only a couple where he was playing superstar level.

Also, I'm no JO fan but he had more talent than any Pacer to ever play in the NBA. It's a shame his body did not have what it takes.

shags
09-07-2012, 11:13 PM
Do you guys not remember it being known that Artest and JO fought over whose team it was? I believe this came out around the time Ron requested the trade and we were looking for a suitor?

I understand it's news that it was a major reason Reggie called it quits... But it seems like a lot of posters are surprised to hear about the squabbling over who's team it was...

And Major Cold... I can assure you that JO WANTED to give you, a Pacers fan, a championship... He didn't want to give one to the Lakers fans... He didn't want to give one to the Knicks fans... He wanted to give you one with his whole heart... He just didn't have what it took in the long run because of injuries and low leadership abilities... But JO bled blue and gold and always hoped he could take us to the promised land... I wish you could have had the conversation I had with him once... He very genuinely loved us all and wanted to give us the world..

Everyone I think has, but if they haven't, they should read O'Neal's comments to Grantland.com's piece about The Brawl. Particularly his last two comments before the punishments section. They confirm the last paragraph in this post.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7612311/an-oral-history-malice-palace&page=3

McKeyFan
09-08-2012, 07:21 AM
Everyone I think has, but if they haven't, they should read O'Neal's comments to Grantland.com's piece about The Brawl. Particularly his last two comments before the punishments section. They confirm the last paragraph in this post.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7612311/an-oral-history-malice-palace&page=3
I've never liked the idea of bringing JO back for a year on a flyer, but this quote changes my mind:


O'Neal: I felt like if I didn't leave — and it was one of the most difficult decisions that I had to make — then that organization would never be free of it. I've lived in that environment [in Indiana] where you can walk into a restaurant and there's so much love there that you get ready to pay your bill and your bill is paid already. Or anywhere you go, there's just so much love. I've seen that part. Those people, it's one of those hardworking small towns where people go to work every day and then they come home and turn their TVs on and watch those games because those games are a part of their lives. And they kind of live through that with all the tough times that they are going through. Indiana is one of the hardest-hit unemployment states in America. So, these people are going through a lot, and having to deal with that type of stuff is hard. It was a very unhappy situation, I could tell, for everybody — we needed to start over. I didn't want to [leave] because I always wanted to finish my career there. That's why I'm extremely proud of what they're doing this year, because now the fans have something to be happy about again.

D-BONE
09-08-2012, 07:49 AM
I also watched the special, it did sound like he threw JO and Artest under the bus.

Good. They deserve it. Both excellent individual player in the own right during that period, but their ego issues were undoubtedly a major catalyst for the implosion of an exceptionally talented team.

Heisenberg
09-08-2012, 08:13 AM
I don't know what really went on in the lockerroom, but I don't know where Artest would get off trying to make it "his" team. Ron was really good then but he wasn't in the same tier as JO.

Cousy47
09-08-2012, 08:41 AM
Very good post and I believe it all. He wasn't as immature as most of the other guys on the team. His main downfall was his body which simply couldn't take the rigors of the NBA. He probably had just as much pure talent or maybe even more than Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan....at his peak. The problem is, his peak didn't last much more than a couple years. He had many good years, but only a couple where he was playing superstar level.

Also, I'm no JO fan but he had more talent than any Pacer to ever play in the NBA. It's a shame his body did not have what it takes.
I was a fan of JO and still agree with your last statement. I also believe that letting Brad Miller leave shortened JO's career a lot. After he moved to Center and put on the weight to battle Centers, he started breaking down pretty quickly, IMO.

BillS
09-08-2012, 09:39 AM
I also watched the special, it did sound like he threw JO and Artest under the bus.

I didn't get the feeling with JO that I got with Artest. Reggie went out of his way to talk positively about JO as one of the guys (along with Al and even Jackson early on) he liked being with.

Jackson was kind of hinted at in the "not following through on work ethic" side, so I think it wore on Reggie. Guys he DIDN'T mention positively were Ron (other than in a "might have been" case) and Tinsley.

PR07
09-08-2012, 10:00 AM
I get it that Jermaine O'Neal, as the newly appointed leader of the team, should've shouldered a lot of the blame for the chemistry issues between he and Artest and letting it fracture the team. However, Reggie should not be above some of the blame either. It's one thing to report what happened, and it's another thing to put a stop to it. As the elder statesman of the team, maybe Reggie should've taken on a bigger role of ironing out any disharmony between the team's two young stars?

I also get it that Reggie was old and maybe some of the younger guys would've simply tuned him out, but at the same time, he's still Reggie Miller. His opinion matters.

J7F
09-08-2012, 11:36 AM
I finally watched the special last night and I didn't take it that the in-fighting was the reason for retirement as much as the brawl was... I thought it was interesting that Reggie thought had he known and announced that he was going to retire at the end of the season that the brawl may have never occurred because he thought the young guys would have been thinking more about suspensions... I don't think it's true because Jax and Artest were both just hot heads living in the moment... But interesting none the less...

I had also forgotten that JO asked to be pulled from his 55 point night to preserve Reggie's record... That is RESPECT!

Another thing I found interesting from the special was that Reggie and Spike's rivalry started from a wager... If IND won Spike had to put Reggie's wife in a movie... But I've already forgotten what Reggie would have to do had NYK won... Then again it doesn't really matter because Reggie won that bet by a long shot :)

J7F
09-08-2012, 11:43 AM
I get it that Jermaine O'Neal, as the newly appointed leader of the team, should've shouldered a lot of the blame for the chemistry issues between he and Artest and letting it fracture the team. However, Reggie should not be above some of the blame either. It's one thing to report what happened, and it's another thing to put a stop to it. As the elder statesman of the team, maybe Reggie should've taken on a bigger role of ironing out any disharmony between the team's two young stars?

I also get it that Reggie was old and maybe some of the younger guys would've simply tuned him out, but at the same time, he's still Reggie Miller. His opinion matters.

I don't think anyone could have gotten through to Ron in that time period... And only a saint or a psycho could have put up with Artest as a teammate...

But I hope JO and Ron both watch that special and hang their heads a little because Reggie was right... They could have won multiple championships together had they focused on being solid teammates on the defensive end as opposed to arguing over who was gonna score on the offensive end...

imawhat
09-08-2012, 11:57 AM
I've never liked the idea of bringing JO back for a year on a flyer, but this quote changes my mind:

Snake oil.

J7F
09-08-2012, 12:26 PM
Snake oil.

You know not of what you speak...

BillS
09-08-2012, 12:36 PM
Another thing I found interesting from the special was that Reggie and Spike's rivalry started from a wager... If IND won Spike had to put Reggie's wife in a movie... But I've already forgotten what Reggie would have to do had NYK won... Then again it doesn't really matter because Reggie won that bet by a long shot :)

No, that was 94 and Reggie lost the bet. He had to go visit Mike Tyson in prison.

Sandman21
09-08-2012, 01:01 PM
No, that was 94 and Reggie lost the bet. He had to go visit Mike Tyson in prison.

And if the story is correct, Tyson refused to see him. :D

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-08-2012, 01:52 PM
The problem with JO and Ron fighting over whose team it was really comes down to the fact that neither of them is the kind of player you would build a team around.

Ron was just crazy. But JO just wasn't good enough, his offensive skills were lacking maybe because of injuries or maybe just ability. But his offensive game was just not good enough to be a franchise player. IIRC the Pacers actually had a significant better record without JO after the Brawl.

And I think alot of the reason for that was we were left with players who weren't franchise players and they knew it, so they played as a team. And the veterans like Davis and Miller were able to lead with their credibility moreso than all-star capabilities.

Where as when JO came back and we had to run our offense through JO because he was our star player our offense became stagnant and useless. Granted I am biased, I still can't get over JO saying he should have had more shots after Anthony Johnson exploded for 41 points against the nets. Then AJ got traded to save money that offseason.

And as we would see later after Jackson, Ron and Reggie were all gone. JO still struggled to get the team to rally behind him.

Eleazar
09-08-2012, 02:03 PM
Mad-Mad-Mario I think you are forgetting about JO before the brawl and injuries.

Both Artest and JO had the basketball skills to build around, just neither of them had the personal and leadership skills.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-08-2012, 02:19 PM
Mad-Mad-Mario I think you are forgetting about JO before the brawl and injuries.

Both Artest and JO had the basketball skills to build around, just neither of them had the personal and leadership skills.

Yeah JO had like one year where he was a legit franchise player though, tons of guys have those years. He was a PF/C in the weak east who was shooting 43% from the field the year the Pacers went 61-21. And IIRC he missed 4 games that year and the Pacers won all 4. He was a talented player, but never a franchise player.

speakout4
09-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Yeah JO had like one year where he was a legit franchise player though, tons of guys have those years. He was a PF/C in the weak east who was shooting 43% from the field the year the Pacers went 61-21. And IIRC he missed 4 games that year and the Pacers won all 4. He was a talented player, but never a franchise player.

I'm not sure that we would agree on the definition of franchise. For our team he was the franchise player whom the team could build around. He just didn't hold up physically.

xtacy
09-08-2012, 03:52 PM
Reggie had mentioned this at some point previously, maybe not in as much detail, because the JO-Artest bickering isn't news to me.

yeah i remember a thread on pd about this.

it makes me sad and angry to hear this. all that talent at the hands of these idiots.

Bball
09-08-2012, 04:15 PM
I agree with Jeff Sagarin's computer and it said JO wasn't that important as a player for the Pacers. This is BEFORE his max contract and part of the info the FO received before offering it to him.

McKey Fan's JO quote is an excellent statement. In and of itself those are wonderful words. But JO never had trouble speaking in public. In fact if his words counted for anything he'd be finishing a HoF career and the Pacers would be counting banners in the Fieldhouse.

Now maybe he's learned in all his collective years in the NBA that he wasn't the player he thought he was and if he'd been able to listen to his coaches and accept the roles they had for him more willingly, to have been a better teammate, then his actual legacy could've been so much more. But that would be a lesson learned too little and too late for Pacer fans.

Portland felt they could give up on him and trade him for a reason. Every team makes mistakes but I doubt in retrospect Portland thinks their initial trade thoughts weren't the correct ones all along.

I had always hoped there would be a lightbulb moment for JO where it would all click but there never was. If that lightbulb has finally illuminated now.... more power to him. But for the Pacers that ship has sailed. And unfortunately it has sailed for JO as well.

travmil
09-08-2012, 05:04 PM
I get awfully tired of the short shrift JO gets around here. All that guy gave this team was the best he could ever do and he gets **** on daily here for it. He had a big contract I get it. All that reflects is the market at the time that he received it, nothing more. If anyone here thinks it's ok to bash someone for not living up to YOUR expectations regardless of the reason, then I feel very sorry for you.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-08-2012, 05:07 PM
I get awfully tired of the short shrift JO gets around here. All that guy gave this team was the best he could ever do and he gets **** on daily here for it. He had a big contract I get it. All that reflects is the market at the time that he received it, nothing more. If anyone here thinks it's ok to bash someone for not living up to YOUR expectations regardless of the reason, then I feel very sorry for you.

You don't get an A for effort in the NBA. Just because you try hard, doesn't mean people shouldn't look at your performance and gauge it honestly.

travmil
09-08-2012, 05:12 PM
You don't get an A for effort in the NBA. Just because you try hard, doesn't mean people shouldn't look at your performance and gauge it honestly.

This response has nothing to do with what I wrote. What I'm saying is that people should at the very least RESPECT O'Neal around here. That doesn't mean I think everyone should kiss his feet. He might not have brought the team a title, but it wasn't because he didn't want to or try as hard as he could to make it happen. You should at least respect a man who gives it his all every night for you. I sat at a forum party several years back and listened to a frequent poster here call JO a pussy. A Pussy? Are you serious? You can be disappointed if you wish, but the bashing he takes in these parts is bush league.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-08-2012, 05:17 PM
This response has nothing to do with what I wrote. What I'm saying is that people should at the very least RESPECT O'Neal around here. He might not have brought the team a title, but it wasn't because he didn't want to or try as hard as he could to make it happen. You should at least respect a man who gives it his all every night for you. I sat at a forum party several years back and listened to a frequent poster here call JO a pussy. A Pussy? Are you serious? You can be disappointed if you wish, but the bashing he takes in these parts is bush league.

Thats not how I would describe it, but its hard to deny that after 04 he was extremely hesitant to play in the paint as much as the Pacers needed him to. Just because you like a player doesn't mean you ignore their faults. And lets be honest, JO had alot of faults in his time here. Frequent injuries, lack of leadership capabilities, lackluster offense. All this coupled with the fact that his best year happened to be a contract year.

travmil
09-08-2012, 05:20 PM
Again, I'm not saying he didn't have faults or that you can't be honest about his game and his abilities. But he also doesn't deserve the blatant disrespect he gets here. That's my point.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-08-2012, 05:52 PM
Being honest about him isn't being disrespectful. And the vast majority of people I have seen, are just voicing their honest opinions of him. Ron gets alot more disrespect and thats sorta unfair because hes crazy and can't help it.

Major Cold
09-08-2012, 06:18 PM
I agree with the notion that JO said all the right things. He was a leader in regards to talking to the press. But many times what he did, contradicted what he said. When his touches went down (it was a Boston game that he screamed at Carisle), he was clearly not amused.

I understand that he is not the devil. But he is hardly McGinnis, Daniels, Brown, and Reggie Miller. I know that if the brawl never happened I would never cringe at BLF when a fan wears the number 7. But it did happen, on JO's team. Whether it was beyond his power or not, it reflects him. It reflects on Walsh. It reflects on Bird. It reflects on the Simons. And it reflects on the state of Indiana.

He was immature and self-entitled with his actions above all.

Hicks
09-08-2012, 10:18 PM
Being honest about him isn't being disrespectful.

Being honest can also be disrespectful.

For example, if one honestly thinks the girlfriend of one of his friends is ugly, it would still be disrespectful to say that to his friend or the girlfriend.

pizza guy
09-08-2012, 11:28 PM
You don't get an A for effort in the NBA. Just because you try hard, doesn't mean people shouldn't look at your performance and gauge it honestly.

Guess we should submit a letter to the NBA to have Reggie pulled from the NBA Hall of Fame. I mean, other than a couple of records that have been broken since he retired, all he ever did was try hard and love this city for his time here.

JO isn't Reggie, and I am not trying to equate them. But when it's all said and done, the brawl and a few injuries are what separate the two. Neither brought us a championship. Both brought us their best and a devotion to the team. Travmil is right, JO catches too much crap.

McKeyFan
09-09-2012, 08:19 AM
the brawl and a few injuries are what separate the two.

No, the biggest separation is the biggest problem I had with JO. He wasn't clutch. He couldn't win us big games. He was bad in this area. Reggie Miller was one of the greatest, if not the greatest player of all time down the stretch.

And although Ronnie was crazy, he was clutch and a true gamer.

Naptown_Seth
09-09-2012, 09:35 AM
I realize it's more brawl, but frankly the footage reminded me of how disappointed I am in the Pacers fanbase in their view of this event after the fact. Hear me out.



I am not surprised. This was assumed anyway. But for him to disclose solidifies my opinion on JO. I never want to see his uniform again. On a fan, but especially in a rafter at the Fieldhouse.
And the way Reggie discussed it also defends my somewhat positive view of Jack. Foolishly losing his temper on the court, but a guy that worked hard and wanted to win.

And I know people have dug their trenches on the Brawl, but seeing footage again actually reinforces my view that NONE (Ron too) of the Pacers were all that out of line. The dude Ron grabs was pounding his fist for blood as the players fought and was even yelling in that crazed fan mode right up until the second before Ron grabbed for him when you see his face turn from "YEAH!" to "OH S***". Brilliant.

And you see the close up footage of the guy throwing a beer point blank in Ron's restrained face followed by Jack giving him a taste of Clint Eastwood/John Wayne justice.

It's not that I'm big on violence, but I am big on KARMA and justice. The fans that were actually contacted by a Pacers player were literally asking for it for the most part. Handling it that way put innocent bystanders in danger, but here's the thing - the way Palace security, the refs, Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton (sucker punch), and Larry Brown were handling it was what put innocent people in danger. That situation would have 100% ended with the Pacers having stuff thrown at them in the tunnel even if Ron never leaves the table.

Reggie even explicitly says "if I'd been out there, the vet I am, I would have seen tempers getting high, heard the trash talking at the FT line, and I would have told the coach to pull the starters because it was getting out of hand". Well what's that say about the guys that were on the court - like Sheed, Billups, Rip. What's that say about Larry Brown and his inability to recognize that Ben was losing his cool. If Ron hard fouls Ben and Brown can see the game getting needlessly rough in what is already a loss, why doesn't his vet leadership and coaching brilliance identify that Piston starters needed to be pulled.

Reggie is saying he would have noticed the growing issue which implicates everyone out there, as well as the refs (duh) and even both coaches who are free to roam closer to the players (Reg is in the corner on the bench, not half court during play).




It sickens me how Pacers fans and the NBA turned on the players in this event. This was virtually the same as the Chicago nuts that jumped onto the field to punch an ump. It's fans taking emotional investment way past the limits. In Conseco if Green throws the cup a cop and usher beat Ron to him, and the fans around him don't jump in trying to fight as well or by throwing things (especially once the player is restrained), and Pistons fans can leave in peace. Maybe in MSA it was different, I was never there when it was. But I've been by the tunnel or close to the court when a LOT of other rivals had emotionally charged playoff games and not once did they have to fear for their life or fear that Pacers fans were about to lose it in the wrong way.

Never forget that. And never forget that Vernon Maxwell had pulled a Ron Artest 10 years prior because a fan TALKED personal s*** to him that was over the line...ON THE ROAD, and there was no brawl. Why? Different arena, different fans, different players. No one supported that fan's hateful approach.





I took Reggie's comments to be 85% based on "I was sick of dealing with the immaturity of players who cared more about offensive touches than winning". He explicitly says how frustrated he was with Ron and JO and how they were bickering over whose team it was. Some things we definitely know...

1) JO and Ron fought (literally is the rumor) about being "the man"

2) Harrington complained about his starter status and how Rick used him
2b) A game about a week before the GSW trade Al complained so much that Rick had him not come out for the 2nd half

3) Tinsley had such an issue with Rick that Carlisle put him on the DNP for half a season and used Kenny Anderson instead

4) Jack never lost time or got benched even though he and Rick would go at it during games, and later Rick attended the birth of Jack's child and the two had a long embrace after the game following the GSW trade.


From this I see a line of childish players who refused to support a CotY or show any maturity, paired with a vet who's hot-headedness proved to be a fuse for their dynamite. In other words, it wasn't going to work with JO or Ron or Tinsley or Al (or some of the lesser players), and if you put JO and Ron on the 2000 team in place of Rik and McKey you'd have big problems too. Jack could be on a team with good teammates and not have any issues (see Spurs) but I think the petty "MY STATUS" guys could ruin even a well-established team. Maybe not brawl disaster, but definitely they could have turned 1998 into 1997 just by being added. In my opinion of course.

This is why I've always been so annoyed with the "Jackson public enemy #1" view. He wasn't. He just had a news item that sounded worse that it was and carried the highest profile, and it paired with his on-court temper. But even if they had kept Al rather than trading for Jackson, that team was screwed. I couldn't resent Ron and JO more at this point.




BTW - remember Reggie on TNT talking about the GSW trade when he said something about "there are still problems in that locker room" or something along those lines? We all started wondering if it was Beetlejuice or Fred or whomever.

Naptown_Seth
09-09-2012, 09:52 AM
I agree with the notion that JO said all the right things. He was a leader in regards to talking to the press. But many times what he did, contradicted what he said. When his touches went down (it was a Boston game that he screamed at Carisle), he was clearly not amused.

I understand that he is not the devil. But he is hardly McGinnis, Daniels, Brown, and Reggie Miller. I know that if the brawl never happened I would never cringe at BLF when a fan wears the number 7. But it did happen, on JO's team. Whether it was beyond his power or not, it reflects him. It reflects on Walsh. It reflects on Bird. It reflects on the Simons. And it reflects on the state of Indiana.

He was immature and self-entitled with his actions above all.
To clarify, I believe JO's issue was the TYPE of touches, not the amount. He was being put in the high post and wanted plays for him run out of the low post. I posted plenty of arguments at the time defending JO slightly and my main case was that JO's FGAs don't change at all after that game. He was getting 15 FGAs (IIRC) and that's where it stayed. What changed was his FTAs I believe, as the low post got him to the FT line more.

The issue wasn't that he was strategically wrong, the issue was what is coming to light more and more - he handled things with a prima donna, me-before-team approach often paired with unneeded anger. Rather than make a strategy case to Rick he goes into the office yelling so loud it gets reported because it can be overheard outside the office. Unproductive.

Naptown_Seth
09-09-2012, 10:10 AM
I blame Jack more than Artest. If Jack had pulled him out of the stands the entire thing would have been a 30 game suspension for Artest and that would be it. Yet...I suspect that team was going to implode anyway...so what the hey...
As I've said, you can see that Jack is about to do just that. Ron is restrained and just as Jack gets there Mr. Douche just next to them decides to "restrain" Ron with a full beer in his face point blank.

And I've always asked what "full beer in your face point blank" is supposed to mean. I don't think it says "hey pal, just calm down for a second and think about this". It says "I'm a punk who really could use a good punch in the face", which he appropriately got. You had very angry drunks who were happy for the chance to mix it up.

Also remember that before Ron even left the table Ben's brother had already left the Pistons area and moved a section over in his attempt to get to Ron, and this is how he ends up behind Fred Jones punching him in the head.


Ron and the Pacers had righteousness on their side IMO. They weren't the problems and they weren't being protected. No one in that arena gave a crap that the situation was boiling over. On the other hand I 100% agree that being right isn't the same as being smart. They tried to take on a mob and that's just stupid. The smart play would be for Ron to get up and walk right off the court when the cup hit him, pointing to the area as he left. And then the rest of the team should have walked right off with him and put the blame right back where it belonged.


They probably would have imploded...but in a great "what if", that adversity might have been just the push that made rivals realize they were on the same team and might have brought them more together. Us vs Them does wonders.



I know some people (Peck, Hicks, many others) get tired of it and just want the subject to never come up. But the hard truth is that this is our Buckner, Bucky Dent, selling Ruth to the Yanks, The Fumble (Browns), the Drive (Browns), Bartman, and any other moment that becomes iconically associated with a team plagued with the frustration of coming up just short over decades. The curse of Ruth hung over the Sox EIGHTY years after the deal.

The Brawl isn't leaving us in our lifetime unless maybe the Pacers win 3-4 titles in a 7 year span. And even then it will linger for context. It's going to come up in Pacers discussions forever.

Bball
09-09-2012, 04:05 PM
I doubt Brown expected to see a melee breakout and for all I know he was leaving his starters in to embarrass them and make it a learning lesson for them so early in the season. Who knows? In hindsight he probably would've done things differently. But then in hindsight who wouldn't have?

More importantly, the Indy fanbase didn't turn on the team immediately after the brawl. In fact, they circled the wagons and held out hope for both the immediate future and long term future. Most people were expecting the team to come back the next year focused and ready with a chip on their shoulders. Instead we got the same old immature crap, except now Reggie wasn't there to counter any of it.

It's a myth to think there was the brawl and then Indy turned their backs on the Pacers. It's convenient, but wrong. There was the brawl, then there was an inspirational final season for Reggie that included advancing to the 2nd round. Fans were ready to show the NBA the Pacers were taking no prisoners come that next season. And then from the start of the next season, opening game, there were teammates bickering, Artest pouting and wanting a trade, JO complaining, Sjax being Sjax (pass the damn ball), Tinsley who apparently had interest in the nightlife more than being an NBA player, Williams 'hanging out with murders', the absolute EGG that the Pacers laid against the Suns on Reggie's jersey retirement game, etc... and lo and behold fan interest waned. Imagine that.

BillS
09-09-2012, 05:18 PM
More importantly, the Indy fanbase didn't turn on the team immediately after the brawl. In fact, they circled the wagons and held out hope for both the immediate future and long term future. Most people were expecting the team to come back the next year focused and ready with a chip on their shoulders. Instead we got the same old immature crap, except now Reggie wasn't there to counter any of it.

It's a myth to think there was the brawl and then Indy turned their backs on the Pacers. It's convenient, but wrong. There was the brawl, then there was an inspirational final season for Reggie that included advancing to the 2nd round. Fans were ready to show the NBA the Pacers were taking no prisoners come that next season. And then from the start of the next season, opening game, there were teammates bickering, Artest pouting and wanting a trade, JO complaining, Sjax being Sjax (pass the damn ball), Tinsley who apparently had interest in the nightlife more than being an NBA player, Williams 'hanging out with murders', the absolute EGG that the Pacers laid against the Suns on Reggie's jersey retirement game, etc... and lo and behold fan interest waned. Imagine that.

This is very important. Over time the story has morphed into the Brawl being what turned the city against the team - it turned the MEDIA against the team (well, after Stern made it clear that the Pacers should be blamed - anyone else remember ESPN defending the Pacers the first night?) but the fans mostly tried to support the team.

The aftermath, which might have been tolerated without the brawl, is what piled on and changed people's feelings about the team. Yes, the Brawl was a contributing factor, but if the other crap doesn't come down then I think it gets looked on as a low moment that the team rallied and recovered from. Was that going to happen? Well, as we heard from some on hear at the time and was confirmed by Reggie, probably not because the locker room was dysfunctional.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-09-2012, 05:32 PM
Guess we should submit a letter to the NBA to have Reggie pulled from the NBA Hall of Fame. I mean, other than a couple of records that have been broken since he retired, all he ever did was try hard and love this city for his time here.

JO isn't Reggie, and I am not trying to equate them. But when it's all said and done, the brawl and a few injuries are what separate the two. Neither brought us a championship. Both brought us their best and a devotion to the team. Travmil is right, JO catches too much crap.

Reggie is 7th in offensive win shares. He one of the best shooters in history. He did alot more than try hard.

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-09-2012, 05:34 PM
Being honest can also be disrespectful.

For example, if one honestly thinks the girlfriend of one of his friends is ugly, it would still be disrespectful to say that to his friend or the girlfriend.

Of course I would never be honest to Jermaine to his face. So this isn't the same situation. And I fail to see the point of discussing players if we are going to be labeled as disrespectful everytime we say something negative about a player.

Bball
09-09-2012, 05:41 PM
Is there really something disrespectful of Jermaine in this thread?

vapacersfan
09-09-2012, 09:08 PM
I doubt Brown expected to see a melee breakout and for all I know he was leaving his starters in to embarrass them and make it a learning lesson for them so early in the season. Who knows? In hindsight he probably would've done things differently. But then in hindsight who wouldn't have?

More importantly, the Indy fanbase didn't turn on the team immediately after the brawl. In fact, they circled the wagons and held out hope for both the immediate future and long term future. Most people were expecting the team to come back the next year focused and ready with a chip on their shoulders. Instead we got the same old immature crap, except now Reggie wasn't there to counter any of it.

It's a myth to think there was the brawl and then Indy turned their backs on the Pacers. It's convenient, but wrong. There was the brawl, then there was an inspirational final season for Reggie that included advancing to the 2nd round. Fans were ready to show the NBA the Pacers were taking no prisoners come that next season. And then from the start of the next season, opening game, there were teammates bickering, Artest pouting and wanting a trade, JO complaining, Sjax being Sjax (pass the damn ball), Tinsley who apparently had interest in the nightlife more than being an NBA player, Williams 'hanging out with murders', the absolute EGG that the Pacers laid against the Suns on Reggie's jersey retirement game, etc... and lo and behold fan interest waned. Imagine that.

QFT

Dont forget Artest "wanting to retire to focus on his music career"

McKeyFan
09-10-2012, 06:53 AM
Being honest can also be disrespectful.

For example, if one honestly thinks the girlfriend of one of his friends is ugly, it would still be disrespectful to say that to his friend or the girlfriend.
Part of the reason your scenario here works is because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This discussion about JO is little a more objective that that, imo.

McKeyFan
09-10-2012, 06:55 AM
I remember concluding that the locker room troublemaker Reggie kept referring to (and explicitly ruled out Artest) was Jamaal shoot em up Tinsley.

McKeyFan
09-10-2012, 06:58 AM
QFT

Dont forget Artest "wanting to retire to focus on his music career"

And the strip shooting.

And the Tinsley shooting incident.

And Harrison using drugs.

And Shawne Williams hanging out with murderers.

And Jax cussing out his coach.

BBall is right. The fanbase was loyal for a long time (me included). But it was the "one incident after another" torture treatment that finally broke us all down.

ChicagoJ
09-10-2012, 08:18 PM
QFT

Dont forget Artest "wanting to retire to focus on his music career"

That's right. He'd already been suspended by the team for two games BEFORE the brawl. That season was going to end badly, it was just a matter of "how?"

vapacersfan
09-12-2012, 09:34 AM
That's right. He'd already been suspended by the team for two games BEFORE the brawl. That season was going to end badly, it was just a matter of "how?"

This was the same season where after the suspension he showed up in his boxers to workout one night.

Didnt he also show up after one game where we played the Pistons? Or was that just a rumor

I firmly belive that team had enough talent to make and even possible win the finals. I also firmly belive that something bad was going to happen.....sooner or later....probably sooner

Since86
09-12-2012, 09:52 AM
To clarify, I believe JO's issue was the TYPE of touches, not the amount. He was being put in the high post and wanted plays for him run out of the low post. I posted plenty of arguments at the time defending JO slightly and my main case was that JO's FGAs don't change at all after that game. He was getting 15 FGAs (IIRC) and that's where it stayed. What changed was his FTAs I believe, as the low post got him to the FT line more

Wasn't JO's infamous 7game blowup over his new low post role?

Mad-Mad-Mario
09-12-2012, 10:11 AM
Wasn't JO's infamous 7game blowup over his new low post role?

Probably, I ended up not being able to follow the team that closely for a few years because I didn't have TV. But even the year of the Brawl and and moreso after, Jermaine didn't want to play in the post. He loved that little 15 footer he had. Me and my dad went to a Pacer game and saw him shooting around for the game and thats all he shot. I mean sure maybe he did some other stuff earlier, but still it seemed odd thats all he was shooting.

ChicagoJ
09-12-2012, 10:31 AM
Wasn't JO's infamous 7game blowup over his new low post role?


No, he'd been taken out of the post. His touches were all facing the basket, too far out on the perimeter, and that was clearly not his strong suit. He needed the ball with his back to the basket where he could make a quick, explosive move. JO's issues were never post offense, unless he was forced to hold the ball for too long which got worse and worse each season under Carlisle, but his problem was post defense.

But he was always better in the post with Brad Miller, who I think we can all look back at now and say that Brad was clearly the MIP of those teams because he allowed JO to play straight-up. (Cueing many more rants... :zip: )

Unclebuck
09-12-2012, 10:47 AM
I've stayed away from this thread, becausesometimes I get tired of re-living history.

But I do want to make a couple of quick comments on JO. I have stated and will continue to say that he is the most talented NBA player I have ever seen wear a Pacers uniform. By talented I am using that term to refer to a combination of athletic ability and basketball skill.

But he might have been one of the laziest players also. he rarely if ever blocked out. he coasted on defense a lot of the time. He didn't run the court well at all or at least not nearly as well as he was capable of. Simply put he did not maximize his talents. IMO this caused him to be a poor leader and someone who was not capable of leading a championship caliber team.

I also always use this line of reasoning when it comes to JO. Mark Boyle who knows the players a lot better than we do was more negative towards JO than he was of Artest, Jax, Tinsley. I believe the word that was used was prima dona. I certianly don't know what all Mark was refering to, but that is good enough for me to use against JO

McKeyFan
09-12-2012, 10:59 AM
I also always use this line of reasoning when it comes to JO. Mark Boyle who knows the players a lot better than we do was more negative towards JO than he was of Artest, Jax, Tinsley. I believe the word that was used was prima dona. I certianly don't know what all Mark was refering to, but that is good enough for me to use against JO

And he was Granger's mentor for how to be a franchise player. Danny is not as bad, and he has gotten progressively better, but some of JO's prima donna fumes still linger.

naptownmenace
09-12-2012, 11:22 AM
And he was Granger's mentor for how to be a franchise player. Danny is not as bad, and he has gotten progressively better, but some of JO's prima donna fumes still linger.

I totally disagree with that statement and I don't think he carries himself that way at all - on the court or off the court.

Naptown_Seth
09-13-2012, 09:25 PM
BBall, I actually agree that the fans/city didn't insta-turn on the Pacers after the brawl. But what bothers me is that due to other stuff fans started to recall the brawl in a different light. If those guys had manned up and come back with a sense of family and team goals then I'd like to think that the fans wouldn't view the brawl as "a bunch of thugs" but rather as the out of control drunk, angry and irresponsible set of fans it was.

I think we all agree that if it wasn't for the brawl then something else was going to set that locker room on fire sooner or later. But that doesn't make their own frustration and actions of the brawl terrible. As I've argued many times over, it's not even close to the worst sports fan brawl. It just happened on ESPN and they eat up stories. The kids here don't know we've seen things like 5 cent beer night which did involve players and fans "interacting". We've seen a Bruins fan turned upside down and beat with his own shoe and that meant players climbing the hockey glass to get to him/them.


What's sad is that if they had just been screwed over by the brawl but really liked each other and circled the wagons, then Reggie would have returned and they might have won the title the next year in one of the great sports stories of all time.


And don't get me started on firing Rick to make JO/Tinsley happy. Ron, JO, Tins, Al, Fred Jones...none of those guys looked better with other teams/coaches than they did playing for Rick. The plays, schemes and strategy work and make you look better, so maybe STFU and let Rick make you look good even if you find his demeanor bland and distant.

Roaming Gnome
09-14-2012, 06:35 AM
And he was Granger's mentor for how to be a franchise player. Danny is not as bad, and he has gotten progressively better, but some of JO's prima donna fumes still linger.

Such as how....? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, but I don't see what makes Danny a Prima Donna unless there are things that are outside of common knowledge?
Granted, one could say the same about J.O. if they didn't have the insight/inside that some of us have/had during his time here.

McKeyFan
09-14-2012, 10:19 AM
Such as how....? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, but I don't see what makes Danny a Prima Donna unless there are things that are outside of common knowledge?
Granted, one could say the same about J.O. if they didn't have the insight/inside that some of us have/had during his time here.
Prima Donna has all sorts of definitions, I'm sure. These aspects of Prima Donna Granger is NOT:
-Arrogant
-Knowingly places his personal success above team success

But, to me, Danny has a bit of this that came from JO (and OB did not help):
- The franchise player needs lots of touches and shots
- Defense is not as important as the offensive prowess of the franchise player

Like I said, Danny has all but gotten over this, with the recent playoffs teams, but he had to detox from the former years and a few fumes may still linger.

BillS
09-14-2012, 12:27 PM
But, to me, Danny has a bit of this that came from JO (and OB did not help):
- The franchise player needs lots of touches and shots
- Defense is not as important as the offensive prowess of the franchise player

I'd argue that these characteristics were forced by necessity or ability (including mental focus), not attitude.

He has been the focal of the offense, sometimes by plan and sometimes because nobody could hit anything and SOMEONE has to keep trying to hit a shot. I've not seen any evidence of him demanding the ball or meeting with the coaches to complain about not getting touches. At most, I think he thinks of himself as more crucial to the offense than he is able to be, but that's understandable when almost no one else was able to prove otherwise to him. I DON'T think he is going to get upset or go all pouty if someone else is getting touches and is being successful with them.

Even if you grant that Danny sometimes takes it easy on defense, I don't think it's because he thinks defense isn't important. I certainly don't think he is in any way refusing to play defense when he is asked to step it up on defense. I think he has a problem concentrating on defense when he is working on offense, but I think it is a mental focus issue not an arrogance/"too good to play defense" issue.

Naptown_Seth
09-17-2012, 09:05 AM
I thought Danny was pretty involved on defense this last season anyway, so it's becoming a moot point.

And to me it was far more a product of JOB and his schemes than a learned behavior from JO. Most of the change in Danny's game came away from JO, not playing with him.



But this underlying debate about JO's legacy is pretty interesting and convoluted. So many factors in play, enough that I've definitely been on both sides in my life. I've defended him around here (and Star) because the dude took a one handed free throw due to the shoulder tear just so he could be available later in the SAME GAME. The only reason he didn't have a replacement shoot for him was because it would have meant he couldn't play any more in that game, per league rules.

Think about the toughness and team spirit that shows. That's not "me first". As it turned out the injury was so bad he was done for many weeks (6-8 as I recall) but he stood out there and forced himself along while in definite pain just so he could be there fore his team later that game.

And he took himself out while on the verge of matching or breaking Reggie's single game point total.

And he was a league leader in charges taken, which when paired with his shot blocking made him a serious rim defender. That's not prima donna it's all about me stuff.


But he also showed his childish "It's about me" attitude with Rick, Ron and others and gave us never ending "I'm going to show everyone I'm the man this year" schtick every summer. He moaned to refs and sometimes wouldn't get back (ala Jack) because of ref whining.


In a lot of ways he and Ron are similar. I think they are both children trying to be men. They mean well and they do work hard, but then they flash the childish emotional responses and extremely self-centered behavior of a 5 year old or a moody teenager. One minute they are going to take on the world and the next no one understands them and they don't care any more.



And every one of these discussions ends the same - what a waste, what that team could have been. Like parents watching their 4.0 kid drop out of college so they can follow Phish on the road for 3 years. ;)