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View Full Version : A cooling glove is "better than steroids?" What will this do to basketball?



Anthem
09-05-2012, 10:48 AM
Man, this is nutty.

http://kottke.org/12/09/magic-cooling-glove-better-than-steroids-for-athletic-performance-improvement

As I was reading the article, I was thinking exactly what Kottke was... in a couple years, this "will be either everywhere or banned."

We're against steroid use in sports, right? Why? Do those same arguments apply to this? Why?

BillS
09-05-2012, 11:01 AM
Man, this is nutty.

http://kottke.org/12/09/magic-cooling-glove-better-than-steroids-for-athletic-performance-improvement

As I was reading the article, I was thinking exactly what Kottke was... in a couple years, this "will be either everywhere or banned."

We're against steroid use in sports, right? Why? Do those same arguments apply to this? Why?

Interesting. I think the problem with steroids is that they are an artificial enhancement that changes the body chemistry. This seems like it would be no different than Gatorade or other replenishment drinks. From the article:


The cooling resets a temperature-sensitive enzyme that muscles need to generate energy, "essentially resetting the muscle's state of fatigue".

One wonders if there is a risk of muscle damage if the fatigue factor is "reset" - is it actually cooling the muscles enough to truly clear the fatigue or is it just enough to provide the enzymes and force the muscles to continue working to breakdown?

vnzla81
09-05-2012, 11:08 AM
Here is a better article and it has a video explaining the whole thing.

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/august/cooling-glove-research-082912.html

I still don't understand what are they doing.


Here is the video

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/e8J6ov48rG0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

FlavaDave
09-05-2012, 11:17 AM
I am against steroid use in sports because of the side affects. It is unfair to put athletes in the position of having to choose between their health and excellence in their sport.

If this "cooling glove" has no side affects and can be made cheaply, forget sports - we might be moving towards a society that wears them like shoes.

However, if this glove leads to blown out muscles it will be banned. Very intriguing to say the least.

BillS
09-05-2012, 11:17 AM
Here is a better article and it has a video explaining the whole thing.

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/august/cooling-glove-research-082912.html

I still don't understand what are they doing.

That looks like the source article for what Anthem found.

Essentially, it looks like a lot of what causes muscle fatigue is that enzymes stop functioning due to waste heat around those muscles. Once the temperature around the muscles returns to something approaching normal, the enzymes that allow the muscles to create energy turn back on.

The article doesn't answer the question of whether the heat/shutdown cycle prevents other damage to the muscles - in other words, by removing the heat do we subject the muscle cells to other ways of getting destroyed?

vnzla81
09-05-2012, 11:24 AM
That looks like the source article for what Anthem found.

Essentially, it looks like a lot of what causes muscle fatigue is that enzymes stop functioning due to waste heat around those muscles. Once the temperature around the muscles returns to something approaching normal, the enzymes that allow the muscles to create energy turn back on.

The article doesn't answer the question of whether the heat/shutdown cycle prevents other damage to the muscles - in other words, by removing the heat do we subject the muscle cells to other ways of getting destroyed?

The part I don't understand is how the glove works? is the glove sucking blood from his hand and sending it back to the body? why not just put both hands on a bucket full of ice isn't that the same thing? shouldn't an ice bath give athletes the same results?

BillS
09-05-2012, 11:36 AM
The part I don't understand is how the glove works? is the glove sucking blood from his hand and sending it back to the body? why not just put both hands on a bucket full of ice isn't that the same thing? shouldn't an ice bath give athletes the same results?

An ice bath runs the risk of cooling the body too much - using an extremity allows the body to use its normal core temperature protection mechanism to slow down blood flow if the hand gets too cold. That's the big advantage, it can't overcool the body (though I suppose in an extreme case it could frostbite the hand, but not if it is just using cold water).

It looks like the vacuum is only enough to change the pressure so the veins expand, allowing more blood flow (and therefore more cooling). No blood transfers out of the body or back in, so it isn't like a blood replacement to avoid doping detection or anything like that.

Since86
09-05-2012, 11:37 AM
The glove probably has censors in it that allows the glove to control the temperature. I would imagine the optimal temperature is a small window, and if you miss that window, you miss the advantages of it.


As an Exercise Science major, this is really cool stuff. I would say the temp has control over how effectively oxygen gets introduced into cycle.

Roaming Gnome
09-05-2012, 11:56 AM
We're against steroid use in sports, right? Why? Do those same arguments apply to this? Why?
Aren't steroids banned for ultimately being a "controlled substance" for the damage they can do to the body if misused?
I don't think the arguments would be the same if this device is found to not cause harm to the body, it would just grant a competitive advantage until everyone utilized them.

I don't see it being banned for the competitive argument, just health questions not being answered to the satisfaction of an authority.

Bball
09-05-2012, 12:18 PM
As an Exercise Science major, this is really cool stuff. I would say the temp has control over how effectively oxygen gets introduced into cycle.

First unattended pun of the day?

Brad8888
09-05-2012, 02:07 PM
Wow. Heat sinks for humans!

If this actually works while speeding a full recovery including the muscle tissues fully healing, as well as expediting the expulsion of waste byproducts of muscular stress, this could truly change sports medicine, as well as the medical profession as we know it.

I can see actually making shoes and gloves out of materials that promote the conduction of excess heat away from the hands and feet while actually engaging in whatever physical activity is going on to increase both the effectiveness of training in building strength more quickly, and the overall endurance of the body during events. It could also increase productivity and quality of life for many patients, especially those undergoing physical therapy.

The possible downside is that the Singularity might be coming even faster than we think. :-o

beast23
09-06-2012, 12:21 AM
Wow. The heck with basketball. If the device works without creating a danger of muscle damage, I see it having a great value in assisting with weight loss and overall fitness.

Indra
09-06-2012, 07:25 AM
Hasn't this been known for a while? I've been running cool water on my wrists and hands after a workout as a way to cool down faster for years. They just put a fancy machine to it and slap the Stanford seal of approval on it, and it's suddenly ground-breaking? There has to be more to it than that.

BillS
09-06-2012, 10:42 AM
Hasn't this been known for a while? I've been running cool water on my wrists and hands after a workout as a way to cool down faster for years. They just put a fancy machine to it and slap the Stanford seal of approval on it, and it's suddenly ground-breaking? There has to be more to it than that.

The breakthrough is in the fatigue reset, not merely a cool down. After running water on your hands and wrists do you feel like you can immediately go back and do another workout at the same level as the one you finished?

Gamble1
09-06-2012, 11:54 AM
The breakthrough is in the fatigue reset, not merely a cool down. After running water on your hands and wrists do you feel like you can immediately go back and do another workout at the same level as the one you finished?

I am always hesitant to call anything a break through especially when it involves a handful of people.

The attachment is just the pullup data on 11 people and you can see that yes they did better but error bars a pretty large so its not like they could just go back and rip off another complete set like the article is suggesting.

Sorry but I can't post the entire article.

BillS
09-06-2012, 12:08 PM
I am always hesitant to call anything a break through especially when it involves a handful of people.

To me I don't think the breakthrough is necessarily in the performance but in how it leads to some rethinking of the temperature mechanism and HOW it affects muscle cells.

Gamble1
09-06-2012, 01:30 PM
Ya sorry I don't have a lot to time to post right now but I will get more in depth later.

The paper cites over 10 people on the importance of temperature and muscle performance the earliest being from 1972. The notion that there is a optimal temperature for muscle cells isn't novel and he isn't claiming that. The claim is almost purely performance based and it has caveats that he mentions in the article but of course no news writers will report.

I don't mean to come off like a debbie downer but this study like a lot of studies have its flaws and it doesn't take into account placebo affect and have proper controls (shams) etc.

If say the study had 1000 people or even a hundred I would be more up beat about it. Of course I would also like to know like you suggested taking a your hand into a cool water bath has any effect at all. You may laugh but the whole principle of this study exploits your natural temperature gauge. In fact the only thing that is altered is cool water and pressure. The only thing people don't have access to is that pressure that dilates the veins. Thats the only novel thing about it and the only thing that you can PATENT...

Now do you think he will show a study that could cost him or someone millions? By the way I have no clue if there is a patent but I am puriest and I would actually like to know how effective that pressure results in a core temperature drop vs just dipping your hand or foot in a cool water bath for 3 minutes.

Bricklayer
09-06-2012, 03:22 PM
Am i the only one getting Zoolander flashbacks?

Gamble1
09-06-2012, 03:46 PM
Well if anyone wants to buy one it will cost 3 grand but hey they have a payment plan. :laugh:

http://www.avacore.com/buy-corecontrol

FWIW the first group to publish on palm cooling and weightlifting was at New Mexico in 2010 which no doubt was the reason why this group basically did this study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20139781

spazzxb
09-06-2012, 04:53 PM
I am under the impression that muscle growth is caused by muscles reparing themselves. While this method allows one to do more work, are there improvements later when not cooling? Does doing more with assistance really improve conditioning or is the improvement completely isolated to using the device. If you aren't more fatigued do you get the same recovery even with more reps?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Anthem
09-06-2012, 11:07 PM
I don't mean to come off like a debbie downer but this study like a lot of studies have its flaws and it doesn't take into account placebo affect and have proper controls (shams) etc.
Fair enough. And I don't want to be the gullible mark, but if you could get results like this with a placebo I think a lot of people would already be taking the placebo.


The glove's effects on athletic performance didn't become apparent until the researchers began using the glove to cool a member of the lab -- the confessed "gym rat" and frequent coauthor Vinh Cao -- between sets of pull-ups. The glove seemed to nearly erase his muscle fatigue; after multiple rounds, cooling allowed him to do just as many pull-ups as he did the first time around. So the researchers started cooling him after every other set of pull-ups.

"Then in the next six weeks he went from doing 180 pull-ups total to over 620," said Heller. "That was a rate of physical performance improvement that was just unprecedented."

MyFavMartin
09-07-2012, 08:08 PM
Whats going on with lactic acid, ATP, creatine and myosin levels?

MyFavMartin
09-07-2012, 08:10 PM
Who works out at 104 degrees? Effect at room temperature?

Gamble1
09-08-2012, 01:34 PM
Whats going on with lactic acid, ATP, creatine and myosin levels?

Well to be fair I don't think many people would sign up for a muscle biopsy. I have been told that hurts.. ;)

I know you can measure lactic acid in the blood though so I am not sure why these guys are not interested in the mechanism. I mean its only changing the core temperature on the treadmill by half a degree. That doesn't seem like enough to explain the results of this study IMO.


Fair enough. And I don't want to be the gullible mark, but if you could get results like this with a placebo I think a lot of people would already be taking the placebo.

Hey i am more than willing to soak my hand in some cool water in between sets its just that I want I don't want to pay 3000 dollars for something that I already have at home. Plus like I said before I am a puriest when it comes to science and I dislike all the bad designed studies like this one especially when these guys know better. In my experience whenever you see a publication like this with obvious flaws it was designed to deceive or mislead for money.

Anthem
09-08-2012, 07:58 PM
Hey i am more than willing to soak my hand in some cool water in between sets its just that I want I don't want to pay 3000 dollars for something that I already have at home. Plus like I said before I am a puriest when it comes to science and I dislike all the bad designed studies like this one especially when these guys know better. In my experience whenever you see a publication like this with obvious flaws it was designed to deceive or mislead for money.
Um, I'd have to think it's a little more than soaking your hand in water between sets.

Nuntius
09-09-2012, 10:17 AM
I am under the impression that muscle growth is caused by muscles reparing themselves.

Actually, that's a great point.

If that's true then this device also halts muscle growth. Right?

Gamble1
09-10-2012, 04:47 PM
Actually, that's a great point.

If that's true then this device also halts muscle growth. Right?

Huh?

More working out = more damage = more repair.


Um, I'd have to think it's a little more than soaking your hand in water between sets.

Why? The claim is that the veins stay open to cool the body under negative pressure. They say your body needs the pressure to keep the veins open but why. This physiological system is there already to cool the body so why would it shut it self off when your body needs it so it doesn't overheat. It makes no sense IMO and it deserves a comparison to make that claim.

Would it be that hard to stick your hand in the glove and put no pressure on it and allow the water to cool the hand? Do the excerises then see what the difference is. This isn't a hard experiment to think of and test but of course it may hurt the pocket book if it was ever published.

Nuntius
09-12-2012, 12:00 PM
Huh?

More working out = more damage = more repair.


What I got is that this device does not let the muscles repair themselves. But I probably misunderstood.

Anthem
09-12-2012, 04:32 PM
Hmm. Seems it's good to be cautious?

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/09/avacore_technologies_magic_cooling_glove_from_stan ford_won_t_transform_your_workout_.single.html

Brad8888
09-15-2012, 12:43 PM
:cry:

:(

:neutral:

:shrug: