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View Full Version : Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?



Peck
09-05-2012, 03:43 AM
Yes I'm blatantly stealing from Mike Wells blog today (go here to read him)http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2012/09/03/pacers-is-reggie-right-behind-jordan-and-kobe-as-top-shooting-guard/

But it got me to thinking where does Reggie rank, obviously it's all subjective so there is no true answer but let's just see where everyone puts him.

I'm not sure yet where I'm going to go but for certain Michael Jordan will be # 1 & Koby will be # 2.

After that?

TMJ31
09-05-2012, 04:17 AM
There is no way for me to give an un-biased answer. So I won't attempt to.

#1 in my book.

BillS
09-05-2012, 04:57 AM
Note to all - there will be a LOT of Pacers fans putting Reggie at #1 or at some high point that others will disagree with. Let's keep those disagreements civil and respectful, understanding that Reggie holds a place in the hearts of many people on here that no other NBA player can come close to.

I don't like ranking players because I just don't watch enough other teams to get a good view of other 2 guards except when they play the Pacers. That said, I don't think I'd put Reggie at #3. I could be convinced he's in the top 5 all-time, definitely in the top 10.

TMJ31
09-05-2012, 05:11 AM
Note to all - there will be a LOT of Pacers fans putting Reggie at #1 or at some high point that others will disagree with. Let's keep those disagreements civil and respectful, understanding that Reggie holds a place in the hearts of many people on here that no other NBA player can come close to.



Exactly.

I won't argue with folks who put MJ or Kobe ahead of Reggie, because I understand that point of view, and where people who feel that way are coming from.

But, I place a lot of weight into intangibles and sentiments since the original question was... "in your OPINION".

In my opinion the "Greatest" shooting guard to ever play in the NBA was Reggie Miller... and since it's my OPINION I get to base it off of whichever set of criteria I choose.

If it were a "which shooting guard has the most championships?" poll... Then it would be fact-based, not opinion-based.

All of that to say, Reggie is #1 for me :)

sportfireman
09-05-2012, 07:23 AM
MJ. Kobe........ ??? Reggie

BRushWithDeath
09-05-2012, 08:06 AM
Of the guys I personally remember watching, he's 8th. I included some guys who were well before my time but with pretty good reason in their cases. It's certainly possible that the Gervin, Maravich, Monroe triumvirate should be higher or lower respectively but I can't say for sure where they belong other than that they do belong. West may be as low as 5 but I'm not putting Wade or AI over him simply because he's the logo.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson
6. Clyde Drexler
7. George Gervin
8. Pete Maravich
9. Earl Monroe
10. Ray Allen
11. Joe Dumars
12. Reggie Miller

Unclebuck
09-05-2012, 08:20 AM
Reggie is difficult to rate . Regular season? No, he doesn't even belong in the Hall of Fame and doesn't rate very high on any shooting guard listing. Playoffs? He is near the top. I suppose you have to take both regular season and playoffs into account. too difficult for me to make a list

Coopdog23
09-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Of the guys I personally remember watching, he's 8th. I included some guys who were well before my time but with pretty good reason in their cases. It's certainly possible that the Gervin, Maravich, Monroe triumvirate should be higher or lower respectively but I can't say for sure where they belong other than that they do belong. West may be as low as 5 but I'm not putting Wade or AI over him simply because he's the logo.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson
6. Clyde Drexler
7. George Gervin
8. Pete Maravich
9. Earl Monroe
10. Ray Allen
11. Joe Dumars
12. Reggie Miller


Ray Allen, D-Wade, Kobe, and Iverson are definitely not higher than Reggie

Coopdog23
09-05-2012, 09:47 AM
Reggie is 2nd behind MJ

BillS
09-05-2012, 10:06 AM
Ray Allen, D-Wade, Kobe, and Iverson are definitely not higher than Reggie

I don't get how you can't put Wade and Kobe ahead. Iverson is arguable because he had the skills but not the longevity. Allen, however, is about as close as you can get to Reggie based on his effect on the game - what do you see that puts Reggie ahead of him other than some high-visibility playoff performances?

Sollozzo
09-05-2012, 10:08 AM
Ray Allen, D-Wade, Kobe, and Iverson are definitely not higher than Reggie

You've got to be kidding me.

Reggie Miller over Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade? Reggie's resume', as impressive as it is, doesn't even belong in the same stratosphere as Kobe. Kobe is a top 10 all time player.

Most objective observers would have AI and Ray Allen above Reggie too. Pretty much all would have AI over him. Allen is the only one of the four guys that could be debated, but in recent years he has elevated himself over Reggie, IMO.

I know that we are supposed to be sensitive to the sentimental feelings people have about Reggie, but that doesn't mean that we should stand by and let rationality and reality be thrown out the window.

vnzla81
09-05-2012, 10:17 AM
It's so hard to make a list of shooting guards, MJ first, Kobe second, West 3rd and after that is hard, wasn't Drexler a shooting guard?, Dwade, Iverson, Dumars, Ray, Pete and Reggie? (note that after 3rd place nobody is
in order).

pacergod2
09-05-2012, 10:23 AM
Yeah Clyde is clearly ahead, so is Kobe Bryant. Ray Allen is. I don't know that I would put AI up there. He scored a lot, but he gave up almost as many points as he scored. Reggie was a much better defender than AI. I guess I don't put my horse blinders on for only scorers. DWade hasn't done enough for me yet, but he is going to be there when it's all said and done.

Here is a good list of the top ten:

http://hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/basketball/top-ten-nba-shooting-guards-of-all-time.html

Trader Joe
09-05-2012, 10:23 AM
See I guess to me I always thought of Maravich as a PG, but I guess he really was more of a combo guard/shooter. It's tough for me to not put Reggie in the top 10, but I absolutely could not put him top 5 either. To me MJ, Kobe, West, Wade, and maybe Iverson are unquestionably above Reggie. Of course I could see where on a non Pacers board Reggie might not even crack top 15. Certainly his memorable playoff performances give him a huge boost.

Trader Joe
09-05-2012, 10:25 AM
How has D-Wade not done enough for you to be above Reggie, but Ray Allen has? That makes no sense to me.

pacergod2
09-05-2012, 10:55 AM
How has D-Wade not done enough for you to be above Reggie, but Ray Allen has? That makes no sense to me.

DWade probably is better at this point in only 9 years, (but its my little homering mechanism that is coming out). I see DWade's body breaking down quickly, but that is foresight. In terms of ability he is higher than Reggie and Ray, but that is not necessarily the question. James Flight White would be in this conversation then. We are talking All-Time. I think Ray Allen's 16-year career has been better than Reggie and AI and even DWade at this point. Ray was unbelievably good for many years and his numbers would have been better if he hadn't taken a lesser role in Boston. He just isn't top echelon. None of these guys are. DWade could enter that top echelon by the time his career is over. He has played nine seasons and his body has taken a beating. If his career wanes more like Iverson, then his career totals won't be as good. DWade is the better talent and his averages are better. I'm not arguing that. Longevity is a huge thing as careers go and Ray and Reggie both have that. I think people are associating Ray's career moreso with what he is now and not what he was in Seattle and Milwaukee. People forget how good he was and many never got to see him play a whole lot. Reggie's playoff numbers are what bring him up the ladder so much. Ray has a championship that AI and (gulp) Reggie don't. (GOD IT HURTS).

We are splitting hairs with these guys.... don't get me wrong. I guess it is more of an interpretation of the question than it is anything. And prioritizing certain aspects over others... i.e. AI's scoring versus his brutal defense, Longevity, etc.

Trader Joe
09-05-2012, 11:04 AM
Did you just compare Wade to James White? 0.o

pacergod2
09-05-2012, 01:45 PM
Did you just compare Wade to James White? 0.o

Did you read what I wrote?!?! 0.o

Coopdog23
09-05-2012, 01:48 PM
DWade probably is better at this point in only 9 years, (but its my little homering mechanism that is coming out). I see DWade's body breaking down quickly, but that is foresight. In terms of ability he is higher than Reggie and Ray, but that is not necessarily the question. James Flight White would be in this conversation then. We are talking All-Time. I think Ray Allen's 16-year career has been better than Reggie and AI and even DWade at this point. Ray was unbelievably good for many years and his numbers would have been better if he hadn't taken a lesser role in Boston. He just isn't top echelon. None of these guys are. DWade could enter that top echelon by the time his career is over. He has played nine seasons and his body has taken a beating. If his career wanes more like Iverson, then his career totals won't be as good. DWade is the better talent and his averages are better. I'm not arguing that. Longevity is a huge thing as careers go and Ray and Reggie both have that. I think people are associating Ray's career moreso with what he is now and not what he was in Seattle and Milwaukee. People forget how good he was and many never got to see him play a whole lot. Reggie's playoff numbers are what bring him up the ladder so much. Ray has a championship that AI and (gulp) Reggie don't. (GOD IT HURTS).

We are splitting hairs with these guys.... don't get me wrong. I guess it is more of an interpretation of the question than it is anything. And prioritizing certain aspects over others... i.e. AI's scoring versus his brutal defense, Longevity, etc.


Wade may be passed his prime. We're not sure

Trader Joe
09-05-2012, 01:51 PM
Wade has already won two titles. Past his prime? Were you guys watching in game 4 against our very own Pacers?

naptownmenace
09-05-2012, 01:55 PM
Why is everyone leaving off the Big 'O'?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Reggie Miller
9. George Gervin
10. Joe Dumars


Reggie's number 1 in my heart though. He's my all-time favorite player but that doesn't mean I can't try to be objective about where he stands compared to other Shooting Guards. I think 8th is about right.

pacergod2
09-05-2012, 01:58 PM
Wade has already won two titles. Past his prime? Were you guys watching in game 4 against our very own Pacers?

Yes I did. I never said he was past his prime. I said he may never have the longevity of the other guys I am comparing him to. Longevity is a skill in this league. We don't have anybody in this discusssion that didn't play in the league for 15 years outside of Wade and that is because of his tremendous talent. The other guys have longevity on him. That is a huge reason why so many players don't ever come close to being in this discussion.

If James White wasn't a complete idiot, he had all the talent and athleticism in the world to be great. Unfortunately for himself he was his own biggest problem. There are so many players who were more athletic and talented than guys like Reggie and Ray, but couldn't sniff their jock straps.

Trader Joe
09-05-2012, 02:00 PM
James White wasn't that talented. Good athlete, but not a great talent.

Anyway, Big O was a PG no?

Major Cold
09-05-2012, 02:01 PM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar--Hey he played it a bit
4. West-Although I see him as the greatest combo guard ever.
5. Wade :-p
6. Clyde
7. Maravich- He guarded SGs, but ran the show from what my dad said.
8. Gervin
9. Dumars
10. Ray Allen
11. Reggie
12. AI
I put Dumars so high because of his defense. I really think Reggie and Ray are a push. But I think if Ray takes another, he will be above. AI is 11. His career FG% is 42%. If had played more selectively I would have put him higher.

pacergod2
09-05-2012, 02:08 PM
Why is everyone leaving off the Big 'O'?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Reggie Miller
9. George Gervin
10. Joe Dumars


Reggie's number 1 in my heart though. He's my all-time favorite player but that doesn't mean I can't try to be objective about where he stands compared to other Shooting Guards. I think 8th is about right.

I always thought O was a SF. Same with Pistol Pete, I thought he was a PG. There are some of these guys that aren't exactly SG. I have a hard time calling AI a SG.

Trader Joe
09-05-2012, 02:14 PM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar--Hey he played it a bit
4. West-Although I see him as the greatest combo guard ever.
5. Clyde
6. Maravich- He guarded SGs, but ran the show from what my dad said.
7. Gervin
8. Dumars
9. Ray Allen
10. Reggie

I put Dumars so high because of his defense. I really think Reggie and Ray are a push. But I think if Ray takes another, he will be above. AI is 11. His career FG% is 42%. If had played more selectively I would have put him higher.

Wade not even in the top ten???

We are talking a guy who has two championships, one of the greatest final performances of all time (blame the refs all you want, but Wade was the most aggressive player on the court and was rewarded), he has averaged 25 PPG on almost 50% shooting. Is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA, and perhaps the best shot blocker from the shooting guard position ever.

He's already been in the league for a decade, so are some of you that concerned with an extra 5 years of work? I mean Maravich was only in the league for ten freaking years and never won a title. Heck, he only made it to the playoffs 4 times and you've got him 6th on your list.

Major Cold
09-05-2012, 02:24 PM
Wade not even in the top ten???

We are talking a guy who has two championships, one of the greatest final performances of all time (blame the refs all you want, but Wade was the most aggressive player on the court and was rewarded), he has averaged 25 PPG on almost 50% shooting. Is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA, and perhaps the best shot blocker from the shooting guard position ever.

He's already been in the league for a decade, so are some of you that concerned with an extra 5 years of work? I mean Maravich was only in the league for ten freaking years and never won a title. Heck, he only made it to the playoffs 4 times and you've got him 6th on your list.

Crap I deleted him when I moved Oscar in. He is above Clyde. And will surpass West soon

vapacersfan
09-05-2012, 03:22 PM
See I guess to me I always thought of Maravich as a PG, but I guess he really was more of a combo guard/shooter. It's tough for me to not put Reggie in the top 10, but I absolutely could not put him top 5 either. To me MJ, Kobe, West, Wade, and maybe Iverson are unquestionably above Reggie. Of course I could see where on a non Pacers board Reggie might not even crack top 15. Certainly his memorable playoff performances give him a huge boost.


Most non Pacers fans I know have him top 20-25.

A few people dont even have him as a HOF'er, but that is a debate for another day.

J7F
09-05-2012, 03:34 PM
A few people dont even have him as a HOF'er, but that is a debate for another day.

Not much of a debate as of Friday ;)

Pacergeek
09-05-2012, 04:27 PM
In his era, Reggie was the 3rd best sg behind MJ and Drexler. For the following generation, Kobe is clearly better, but after him you could argue that Reggie was better than AI and Ray Allen. I would say that Wade is better than Reggie. I would put reggie as number 5 SG of all time when you consider how he performed in the playoffs

Pacergeek
09-05-2012, 04:28 PM
Most non Pacers fans I know have him top 20-25.

A few people dont even have him as a HOF'er, but that is a debate for another day.

I've only seen Bill Simmons write this nonsense

DangerGranger3pointranger
09-05-2012, 04:32 PM
It doesn't really matter to me, all I know is that he is one of the best.

Kemo
09-05-2012, 05:43 PM
just a reminder... a replay of "Looking back at Reggie" is coming on at 6 on NBATV for those who hadn't gotten a chance to watch it yet ....

Shade
09-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Much of Iverson's success was due to preferential treatment from the refs. Wade is the only guy I've seen who gets more.

Eleazar
09-05-2012, 06:00 PM
1. MJ
2. West
3. Kobe
4. Drexler
5. Reggie
6. Gervin
7. Maravich
8. Monroe
9. Allen
10. Dumars


Wade: Come back in 4 or 5 years then I will feel comfortable ranking him as his career winds down. Until then he has way too much time left to be in this discussion.

AI: For a guy who is known mostly for his scoring he was pretty bad at it. Yeah, he scored a lot because he had the ball all of the time, but hey if Stephenson controls the ball 75% of the time your team is on offense he is going to end up with a lot of points. It just might come at 41% shooting. AI might be one of the all-time great dribblers, but he is hardly an all-time great SG.

pacergod2
09-05-2012, 06:07 PM
1. MJ
2. Oscar
3. Kobe
4. West
5. Clyde
6. Gervin
7. Wade
8. Allen
9. Reggie
10. Pearl

I don't count Pistol Pete or AI as SG. This list leaves guys like Nique, Barry, English, Erving, and Havlicek off who were more forward than guard. In Oscar Robertson's best years in SA, they used bigger lineups with him at SG so I included him. This list gets real different real quick when you add Erving to the SG spot, but again he primarily played SF in their best lineups in Philly and with the Nets.

PacersHomer
09-05-2012, 06:07 PM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Drexler
5. Gervin
6. Wade
7. Thompson
8. Iverson
9. Allen
10. Reggie

vnzla81
09-05-2012, 06:22 PM
Much of Iverson's success was due to preferential treatment from the refs. Wade is the only guy I've seen who gets more.

The referees treated Reggie pretty well too, in fact many of those top 10 sg's were helped by the referees during their entire career, Kobe,MJ,Reggie,Iverson, etc, etc.

Ace E.Anderson
09-05-2012, 06:41 PM
I agree with most everyone who's putting Reg at the bottom of the top ten. Obviously Kobe, MJ and West are the top 3. I honestly never thought of D Wade as a top 2 guard historically but he has had a pretty great career do far. Guys like AI, Mitch Richmond, and Clyde Drexler were all easily more talented than Reggie ever was.

One of the things that made Reggie so great was the fact that he wasn't as talented, or as athletic as a lot of these other guys, yet you always felt that he could not only compete with other greats, but that he could BEAT other greats. He's the ultimate "big game" player who would take his game to another level when the stakes were the highest.

Whether he's a top 10 2-guard historically or not, Reggie is the man.

BRushWithDeath
09-05-2012, 06:56 PM
Why is everyone leaving off the Big 'O'?
I've always thought Oscar was a point guard.


B]Reggie's number 1 in my heart though. He's my all-time favorite player but that doesn't mean I can't try to be objective about where he stands compared to other Shooting Guards.[/B] I think 8th is about right.

I think on this we can pretty much all agree. If you're posting on this board, Reggie is a major reason why.

Eleazar
09-05-2012, 08:18 PM
I don't get this ranking Ray Allen ahead of Reggie? Allen is an all-time great player no doubt, but he was never on the same level as Reggie.

J7F
09-05-2012, 08:41 PM
I've always thought Oscar was a point guard. Same here... And I thought the same about Jerry West... I guess mainly because both of these guys averaged close to 10 APG at one point in their career...

Eleazar
09-05-2012, 08:52 PM
Same here... And I thought the same about Jerry West... I guess mainly because both of these guys averaged close to 10 APG at one point in their career...

I thought the same, then when I looked around everyone ranks him with SGs, so I decided to include him in my list.

graphic-er
09-05-2012, 08:57 PM
Look I take Iverson off the top ten list, he was a ball hog and detrimental to his teams success, it makes you wonder how he ever got to the finals, aside from a terrible East at the height of his prime.

I think its very hard to argue that Wade is top 5. He relies too much on the refs to be considered elite. He has had great numbers in his career, but he has never done anything in this league when not paired up with another dominant player. That is a fact. Reggie Miller had no problem carrying his teams to great playoff successes. When wade was the man the Miami Heat were a fringe playoff team. Also i think more so than any other player on the list, Wade relies on a screen at the top of the key to make his move to the rim. In my opinion Wade's only redeeming quality that makes him elite is his ability to finish around the rim, so he is top 10. But not top 5.

BlueNGold
09-05-2012, 09:07 PM
Wade, as much as I dislike him, is better than Reggie. Reggie is not in the top 5, but probably in the top 10. As others have said, in the playoffs he raised his game. The fact is, he could have produced more during the regular season and showed that very early in his career. But getting his numbers wasn't important. Not until the close of the games.

The difference with Miller is that you knew who would be shooting the ball...but guys still couldn't stop him from getting that shot off. THAT is why Reggie is better than so many other SG's....because getting a shot off at crunch time during the playoffs may be the most important thing a SG can do.

Kid Minneapolis
09-05-2012, 09:28 PM
I don't like including combo guards in a list of shooting guards... Iverson, Big-O, West, and Dumars to me were more PGs than anything, but they also played some 2-guard. Here's my list of top pure shooting guards up to Reggie:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Clyde Drexler
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Reggie Miller

Shade
09-05-2012, 10:37 PM
The referees treated Reggie pretty well too, in fact many of those top 10 sg's were helped by the referees during their entire career, Kobe,MJ,Reggie,Iverson, etc, etc.

While true, fewer have had their games elevated by preferential treatment as much as Iverson.

Pacergeek
09-05-2012, 10:42 PM
I don't get this ranking Ray Allen ahead of Reggie? Allen is an all-time great player no doubt, but he was never on the same level as Reggie.

This comparison has been generated primarily by the media. Anybody that has actually watched these two for their careers would have Miller easily ahead of Ray.

ColeTheMole
09-05-2012, 10:46 PM
In Oscar Robertson's best years in SA, they used bigger lineups with him at SG so I included him.

Didn't he only play for CIN and MIL?

BlueNGold
09-05-2012, 10:58 PM
This comparison has been generated primarily by the media. Anybody that has actually watched these two for their careers would have Miller easily ahead of Ray.

It's immediately clear that Reggie's playoff stats are better than Ray's. Miller averaged over 30ppg two separate times and Allen never broke 27ppg. When Allen did finally make it to the finals, it was on the backs of Garnett and Pierce. Miller could have done the same thing. Taking nothing away from Ray, Reggie was simply a more dangerous offensive player in the playoffs or during big games for that matter. He was a leader and provided swagger to boot along with a higher scoring average in the playoffs........

Trader Joe
09-06-2012, 01:10 AM
1. MJ
2. West
3. Kobe
4. Drexler
5. Reggie
6. Gervin
7. Maravich
8. Monroe
9. Allen
10. Dumars


Wade: Come back in 4 or 5 years then I will feel comfortable ranking him as his career winds down. Until then he has way too much time left to be in this discussion.

AI: For a guy who is known mostly for his scoring he was pretty bad at it. Yeah, he scored a lot because he had the ball all of the time, but hey if Stephenson controls the ball 75% of the time your team is on offense he is going to end up with a lot of points. It just might come at 41% shooting. AI might be one of the all-time great dribblers, but he is hardly an all-time great SG.

You do realize Wade has been in the league just as long as Pete Maravich was? You know the same Pete Maravich who never won a title and only made the playoffs 4 times.

Trader Joe
09-06-2012, 01:12 AM
While true, fewer have had their games elevated by preferential treatment as much as Iverson.

You really think Iverson was getting preferential treatment from the NBA and the refs? Say what you want about the guy everywhere else in his life but he put his body on the line to draw fouls. He was fearless with the ball in his hands. Of all the players to suggest getting preferential treatment, Iverson seems pretty unlikely. I imagine few superstars have caused more headaches for Stern.

Eleazar
09-06-2012, 01:26 AM
You do realize Wade has been in the league just as long as Pete Maravich was? You know the same Pete Maravich who never won a title and only made the playoffs 4 times.

You realize I don't care. I don't judge about how long their career is, or how well their team does. I care about whether or not their career is over, or near over. Until that point it is like comparing Apples to Bananas.

MrSparko
09-06-2012, 01:31 AM
You realize I don't care. I don't judge about how long their career is, or how well their team does. I care about whether or not their career is over, or near over. Until that point it is like comparing Apples to Bananas.

What could Wade possibly do that would put him below Pete? If Wade scores 2 points a game and stays around for 10 more years and never makes the playoffs again his accomplishments would still put him above.

Trader Joe
09-06-2012, 09:04 AM
Longevity is one of the most overrated things in sports. Now, I'm not saying it's not important, but I do feel we as Pacer fans like to put a lot of emphasis on it, because it happens to be one of Reggie's big "plus points". However, if a guy only played 8 years in the league and during those 8 years won 6 championships and then retired, he would still be one of the greatest players of all time. Longevity is definitely worth something, but it's only so much. Heck, just ask Pistol Pete himself.

Major Cold
09-06-2012, 09:30 AM
It's immediately clear that Reggie's playoff stats are better than Ray's. Miller averaged over 30ppg two separate times and Allen never broke 27ppg. When Allen did finally make it to the finals, it was on the backs of Garnett and Pierce. Miller could have done the same thing. Taking nothing away from Ray, Reggie was simply a more dangerous offensive player in the playoffs or during big games for that matter. He was a leader and provided swagger to boot along with a higher scoring average in the playoffs........
You swayed me. I looked at their stats and scoring in the final 5 minutes and I think overall, Reggie has had a better career.

Coopdog23
09-06-2012, 09:31 AM
MJ. Kobe........ ??? Reggie

MJ is easily #1. I can argue Kobe being #2. Reggie is definitely in the top 5

boombaby1987
09-06-2012, 09:37 AM
MJ is easily #1. I can argue Kobe being #2. Reggie is definitely in the top 5

Who would you put in the top 10?

Hoop
09-06-2012, 09:47 AM
I rank Reggie a no brainer top 10, arguably top 5 SG. MJ, Kobe, Drexler, I guess Wade, but after that arguments can be made.

How can some of these guys be ahead of Reggie when they were not even the top guy/go to guy on their own teams, mainly talking about Ray Allen, Dumars, even Jerry West played with a team of HOFers. Reggie out played AI and Ray in the playoffs when they were both in their prime and the main men on there respective teams.

If Reggie had played with some of the teammates these guys played with he'd have several rings. Reggie came to a team that had only made the playoffs a few times in there NBA history. They then made the playoffs 15 out of 18 years. I know, It was not ALL Reggie of course, but players and coaches came and went and Reggie still keep winning games till the very end. He scored 39 points on Kobe and beat the Lakers at 39 years old.

What if Ray never went to the Celtics, how would he be perceived different, a guy that was a great shooter, but rarely even made the playoffs and never won crap? What if Wade never played with Shaq or Lebron. Would he just be a big time talented scorer who never won anything (Mitch Richmond)?

BobbyMac
09-06-2012, 09:51 AM
Because Oscar was a point guard and perhaps the best overall guard in the history of the game.

Why is everyone leaving off the Big 'O'?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Reggie Miller
9. George Gervin
10. Joe Dumars


Reggie's number 1 in my heart though. He's my all-time favorite player but that doesn't mean I can't try to be objective about where he stands compared to other Shooting Guards. I think 8th is about right.

Coopdog23
09-06-2012, 09:58 AM
Wade has already won two titles. Past his prime? Were you guys watching in game 4 against our very own Pacers?

Did you watch game 3?

Sollozzo
09-06-2012, 10:01 AM
Did you watch game 3?

So he can't have a bad game?

Wade isn't 2006 or 2009 Wade anymore, but he is still pretty damn good.

Pacergeek
09-06-2012, 10:28 AM
It's immediately clear that Reggie's playoff stats are better than Ray's. Miller averaged over 30ppg two separate times and Allen never broke 27ppg. When Allen did finally make it to the finals, it was on the backs of Garnett and Pierce. Miller could have done the same thing. Taking nothing away from Ray, Reggie was simply a more dangerous offensive player in the playoffs or during big games for that matter. He was a leader and provided swagger to boot along with a higher scoring average in the playoffs........

What irks me about the Allen/Miller debate is that Ray Allen has never taken his team on his back and made a deep playoff run. Maybe Ray is a better shooter then Reggie, but Miller was a better leader and competitor when it mattered in the playoffs.

Trader Joe
09-06-2012, 10:56 AM
The Allen/Miller debate will always be unfair to both of them. They were never in comparable situations. Just my take on it, similar play styles, yes, but never really similar situations.

pacergod2
09-06-2012, 11:06 AM
Big O was definitely not in SA. That's my bad... I had just got done looking at Gervin's tab, but my point still stands. With O, he was Lebron James before Lebron. Dominated the ball a lot from what I know. I clearly wasn't around then to know his game as much as more current players. He played some SF, but he [primarily played with bigger players in bigger lineups. It seemed to be a "give it to O and rebound the **** out of the ball" type of game and therefore he played in a lot of lineups with three forwards. It's like Kobe and Lebron. He typically is the guy that brings the ball up or is handling the ball most of the time and his PGs are more relegated to spreading the floor and defending quicker guys than doing the major ball handling duties.

If you put O in the discussion of SGs he is there near the top. I don't see how he can be a PG with his size, the guys he guarded and the smaller guys who played next to him, i.e. Adrien Smith. If I am way off in my assessment, could some people who know from watching the games tell me if I am way off.

Trader Joe
09-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Obviously I didn't see him live, but when I've seen clips of him on youtube or on Classic, I would always call him a PG and that is usually how he is described by "experts". I can certainly see where his size and other factors could make him a two, but I would call him a PG first.

Ace E.Anderson
09-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Big O was definitely not in SA. That's my bad... I had just got done looking at Gervin's tab, but my point still stands. With O, he was Lebron James before Lebron. Dominated the ball a lot from what I know. I clearly wasn't around then to know his game as much as more current players. He played some SF, but he [primarily played with bigger players in bigger lineups. It seemed to be a "give it to O and rebound the **** out of the ball" type of game and therefore he played in a lot of lineups with three forwards. It's like Kobe and Lebron. He typically is the guy that brings the ball up or is handling the ball most of the time and his PGs are more relegated to spreading the floor and defending quicker guys than doing the major ball handling duties.

If you put O in the discussion of SGs he is there near the top. I don't see how he can be a PG with his size, the guys he guarded and the smaller guys who played next to him, i.e. Adrien Smith. If I am way off in my assessment, could some people who know from watching the games tell me if I am way off.

From what I always understood clearly defined positions like POINT guard and SHOOTING guard didn't come around until about 30 years or so, give or take. Before then, there were guards, forwards, and posts. This is why guys like Jerry West, Big O, etc were good scorers but also averaged high assist numbers as well, or why guys like Elgin Baylor (who was 6-5) was a double double machine. Players tended to just play to having clearly defined "roles"

Eleazar
09-06-2012, 01:19 PM
Longevity is one of the most overrated things in sports. Now, I'm not saying it's not important, but I do feel we as Pacer fans like to put a lot of emphasis on it, because it happens to be one of Reggie's big "plus points". However, if a guy only played 8 years in the league and during those 8 years won 6 championships and then retired, he would still be one of the greatest players of all time. Longevity is definitely worth something, but it's only so much. Heck, just ask Pistol Pete himself.

You and Sparky don't seem to be reading what I am saying. I don't care when their career is over, all I care about is it being over. This has nothing to do with anything else, nothing to do with how good I think Wade is or how long he plays. All I care about is whether or not if his career is over or near over.

ReginaldWayne
09-06-2012, 02:02 PM
You and Sparky don't seem to be reading what I am saying. I don't care when their career is over, all I care about is it being over. This has nothing to do with anything else, nothing to do with how good I think Wade is or how long he plays. All I care about is whether or not if his career is over or near over.

Why is that all you care about? You have kobe at 3, Allen at 9.

Kid Minneapolis
09-06-2012, 03:14 PM
I judge Wade not even off his rings... I think the knock on him is that he sort of rode 2 legends to those 2 rings. But he's still a damned good, dynamic 2-guard. At least offensively.

Sollozzo
09-06-2012, 03:21 PM
I think the knock on him is that he sort of rode 2 legends to those 2 rings.

Wade (and the refs) won the 06 Finals. Shaq didn't break 20 points in any of the Finals games. Shaq was great against Chicago and Detroit though.

Wade was without question the best player on an NBA championship team. That can never be taken away from him.

Hoop
09-06-2012, 06:02 PM
Wade (and the refs) won the 06 Finals. Shaq didn't break 20 points in any of the Finals games. Shaq was great against Chicago and Detroit though.

Wade was without question the best player on an NBA championship team. That can never be taken away from him.
I still think people discount how important Shaq was, He was still a dominant big man. Wade blew up (and the refs) in the finals but Shaq was still the man on that team IMO. Shaq could have teamed up with several different teams and probably took them to the finals at that time (before his fast decline). The same could not be said of Wade.

BlueNGold
09-06-2012, 06:53 PM
What irks me about the Allen/Miller debate is that Ray Allen has never taken his team on his back and made a deep playoff run. Maybe Ray is a better shooter then Reggie, but Miller was a better leader and competitor when it mattered in the playoffs.

Just another little tidbit on their career numbers. Ray's FT% was higher in the regular season. Reggie's was higher in the playoffs (and higher than Ray's). Ray's PPG average was 20 in the regular season and 18.2 in the playoffs. Reggie's were basically flipped, again operating at a higher level against stronger competition...not piling up numbers against weak teams. If they had one shot to make they would both be good choices. I would probably give the ball to Reggie.

ensergio
09-06-2012, 07:23 PM
Look I take Iverson off the top ten list, he was a ball hog and detrimental to his teams success, it makes you wonder how he ever got to the finals, aside from a terrible East at the height of his prime.

He was in the finals with a very limited 76ers because he was that good. I think some of you don't remember the way he took the games with his scoring.

BlueNGold
09-06-2012, 07:43 PM
AI was definitely a more talented player than Miller by some distance. IMO, he was better than Wade and rivaled Kobe on offense.

As good as he was, he certainly helped his teams win. But his talent level didn't fully translate to making his team that much better. Players would often just watch the AI show and it worked quite a bit. But it stunted the team's growth at times. At the same time, he didn't have the best teams throughout his career...yet I don't think that changes what I'm saying.

Shade
09-06-2012, 11:01 PM
You really think Iverson was getting preferential treatment from the NBA and the refs? Say what you want about the guy everywhere else in his life but he put his body on the line to draw fouls. He was fearless with the ball in his hands. Of all the players to suggest getting preferential treatment, Iverson seems pretty unlikely. I imagine few superstars have caused more headaches for Stern.

He did what Wade does now for the most part - throw himself into defenders to draw fouls. And he got the calls far more often than not. He was a below average shooter and defender. Once he lost his speed (aka ability to draw fouls), he was awful.

BRushWithDeath
09-07-2012, 08:06 AM
He did what Wade does now for the most part - throw himself into defenders to draw fouls. And he got the calls far more often than not.

I think this is a complete misrepresentation of both Iverson and Wade. Completely dispresctful of two of the greatest to play the game.

While drawing fouls is/was a part of their game, that can be said for every good player. Ever. Including Reggie. But it isn't their main facet.

Coopdog23
09-07-2012, 08:42 AM
One of the most clutch players in history

pacergod2
09-07-2012, 10:10 AM
AI was a great scorer. There is a reason the GM of the Sixers went out and put four of the best defenders in the league around him. He can't defend outside of playing the passing lanes, which he did extremely well. He was easy to pass over or drive around or post up or shoot over or well, just about anything. Those teams made it to the finals because they defended at such a high level and AI was capable of making tough shot after tough shot after tough shot. Throw in an occaional 12 footer from the other players (not named Eric Snow) and the team had a touch of versatility. That was a very good team and the year they made it to the finals they had a lot go right for them to get there. I'm not talking about AI being great or not, he was. But the GM of that team deserves more credit for putting the right team around the kid.

Reggie and Ray are a different ball game. Reggie generally played on much better teams overall than Ray did. Most of Ray's playoff appearances included him carrying his teams to even get there. Reggie didn't get double-teamed like Ray did typically. Look, I LOVE Reggie Miller. I just think that the general opinion on Ray Allen on this board is way less than it should be because he is getting compared to their idol. He's my idol too. I think Mark Jackson was one of the best PGs ever too. McKey and the Davis boys and Chuck Person all hold special places for me too. Jeff Foster might be the greatest center ever IMO (ok not really). Ray Allen is as good of a basketball player as Reggie was. Both top ten all time SG. It becomes an exercise in splitting microfibers in these discussions.

BillS
09-07-2012, 10:16 AM
I think this is a complete misrepresentation of both Iverson and Wade. Completely dispresctful of two of the greatest to play the game.

OK, while I am fully in with the discussion of Iverson as a top player, one of "the greatest to play the game" tears it for me. He lacked far too much to get to that level.

Kid Minneapolis
09-07-2012, 10:22 AM
Iverson was a more individually talented player... Reggie was by far a more impactful team player. There's a reason Miller's teams were constantly conference finals candidates. He was a great leader, he set examples for his teammates, he was the pro of pros, his workout ethic was legendary, his drive and competiveness late in games and in the playoffs were not matched by many people in history, and it's all of these things that Iverson fell far short on. Iverson was a tremendous offensive player, but his game was all about *him*, and how his teammates complemented *him*. Iverson's game was more about how his teammates elevated him (give him the ball and clear out), whereas Miller's game was more about how he elevated his teammates on so many levels. Miller was also unfairly underrated in a lot of aspects, but namely defensively.

Not only that... but Iverson was a PG, imo... lol. He was a scoring PG. He was... Derrick Rose Lite. DRose... Iverson.... Marbury.... to me those guys are all very similar players. Impressive to watch individually, but I never felt like they were championship caliber... DRose was legitimately close to being that, though. I still think we've seen the best of DRose, it's tough for me to imagine him and the Bulls being close to what they were before after his injury and the questionmarks around that team. Rose had the right mentality to go along with a skillset like Iverson and Marbury, but I always questioned whether his body would hold up. You could tell just watching, he was pushing his body to a point that nobody can sustain.

I guess the best way for me to relate it is this.... between Iverson and Tim Duncan, who's game was more enjoyable to watch? Likely Iverson, on a pure entertainment level (although you'll get the purists who say "I enjoy watching Duncan's fundamentals better" blah blah blah... fundamentals aren't always fun to watch). Between those two, however, who would you bet on to win a championship? Duncan. It's just a certain way of playing and fitting into a scheme and making the sum of the parts better than yourself. I never felt like Iverson was in that mold at all, and thus was never really a true championship contender. He was more like a.... circus side show.

Slick Pinkham
09-07-2012, 11:31 AM
42.5% shooters who star by volume shooting, like Iverson, do not belong in any such discussion, whether you consider him a PG or not.

Big O was a PG. So was Maravich. So was Earl Monroe, despite being paired for years with PG Clyde Frazier. I consider West a SG.

My list:

MJ
West
Kobe
Wade
Clyde
Gervin
Reggie
Dumars

An ESPN panel has a similar list but includes Iverson, with Reggie #7

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-greatestsgs

Fan voting at ESPN in the above link has this ranking:

1 Jordan (39,178 #1 votes) 662,176 total poll points
2 Bryant (3,989) 576,960
3 West (519) 525,234
4 Drexler (158) 396,665
5 Gervin (86) 385,612
6 Maravich (485) 380,135
7 Iverson (287) 376,933
8 Miller (225) 326,212
9 Monroe (38) 257,438
10 Dumars (155) 245,920
11 Wade (153) 211,970
12 Thompson (42) 192,212
13 Jones (34) 155,151
14 Greer (26) 143,180
15 Sharman (37) 112,509


so any argument that "most non-homers think he's not top 10" is silly.

PR07
09-07-2012, 11:59 AM
I think Wade could be ranked higher than Reggie Miller when it's all said and done, but if he retired today would he? No, he doesn't have the longevity yet of Reggie. I think that's what you have to take in account right now. For instance if Kobe retires today, is he still ranked higher than Reggie? Absolutely.

The Ray Allen, Reggie debate is a close one. I don't think you could say that either one ever had any great help (until Allen with the Celtics), but both had some respectably good help throughout a lot of their respective careers. Reggie had Smits, Mark Jackson, J. Rose, and the Davis's; whereas Allen had Cassell, Big Dog Robinson, and Anthony Mason. It was only in Seattle where Allen was largely left for dead.

BRushWithDeath
09-07-2012, 01:01 PM
OK, while I am fully in with the discussion of Iverson as a top player, one of "the greatest to play the game" tears it for me. He lacked far too much to get to that level.

He's the best under 6'2" scorer in the history of the game.

Cousy47
09-07-2012, 01:36 PM
From what I always understood clearly defined positions like POINT guard and SHOOTING guard didn't come around until about 30 years or so, give or take. Before then, there were guards, forwards, and posts. This is why guys like Jerry West, Big O, etc were good scorers but also averaged high assist numbers as well, or why guys like Elgin Baylor (who was 6-5) was a double double machine. Players tended to just play to having clearly defined "roles"

The Big O and The Logo were the Bird/Magic of the 60's. These guys, especially Oscar, were beyond position, they were the total game and leaders. Everyone who played with them played better. If Oscar is not in the G.O.A.T. conversation, there is not a list, IMHO.

Slick Pinkham
09-07-2012, 01:37 PM
He's the best under 6'2" scorer in the history of the game.

No, he scored the most total points in a career, among players that size or smaller.

Efficiency matters. He was a tremendous ball-hog with freedom to throw up anything.

He was no Isiah Thomas. Heck, he was no Tiny Archibald either, or Calvin Murphy for that matter.

Isiah: 45%
Tiny: 47%
Calvin: 48%
AI: 42.5%, 40% in the playoffs

-----
on the thread topic,

look at "effective FG%" at under advanced statistics at basketballreference.com

Reggie: 54.4%
MJ: 50.9%
Gervin: 50.7%
Wade: 50.0%
Dumars: 49.8%
Drexler: 49.5%
Kobe:48.6%
West: 47.4% (but no 3-pt. shot in his era, likely would be >50 with it)

Iverson: 45.2%

naptownmenace
09-07-2012, 01:51 PM
I don't like including combo guards in a list of shooting guards... Iverson, Big-O, West, and Dumars to me were more PGs than anything, but they also played some 2-guard. Here's my list of top pure shooting guards up to Reggie:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Clyde Drexler
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Reggie Miller

I can agree that maybe AI and Big O weren't shooting guards but Dumars? He played 90% of the time at SG. They had this really good PG there by the name of Isiah Thomas who played about 38 minutes a game and even when he went to the bench, Vinny Johnson or Gerald Henderson would come off the bench to play PG. Even during the Grant Hill days Dumars split time with Allen Houston for a couple of years at SG. Houston would go to the bench and Lindsey Hunter would come in and run the point.

Joe wasn't just a SG, he was one of the best all-around SGs to ever play the game.

Kid Minneapolis
09-07-2012, 03:14 PM
Sure, but he also spent 5 years mostly at PG. He was a 'tweener in size to begin with, really kind of small for a SG, but big for a PG and he had the ability to move the ball up the court and set up the offense.

I agree with you that of all those mentioned, Dumars might be the greyest of those candidates, where you might aim him more at the SG position... But even so, getting back to the point of this thread, I don't know if I'd place him above Reggie. He was a fine player, but.... as good as Reggie? I mean let's face it, Dumar's cast was considerably more epic than what Reggie had most of his career. Isiah... Lambier... Rodman... Salley. Reggie never had an Isiah-level player alongside him... you'd almost certainly be talking championships if he had. Dumars wasn't the undisputed leader of that team and carried them on his shoulders like Reggie did with Indy. I just think they have different contexts and while Dumars certainly was a very fine player, I can't imagine that if you reversed the two players teams, that Dumars would've been able to carry the Pacers for almost two decades... whereas you could easily see Reggie fitting in with those bad boys.

I'm not saying that any of those 4 players weren't fantastic at that position, but it's tough to pigeon-hole a guy who can play across multiple positions and say "he was this". Just doesn't seem logical to compare Reggie Miller to... Oscar Robertson. Allen Iverson. I don't really recall Miller having any head-on-head battles with Iverson. Did they ever draw assignments on each other? I mean they played against each other, but it doesn't seem like Iverson was manning Miller up on D, or taking Miller off the dribble unless it was a defensive switch gone wrong. I could have forgotten I spose, someone correct me.

Kid Minneapolis
09-07-2012, 03:44 PM
I could make an addendum to my prevous list and add Gervin above Reggie. He's the one shooting guard I really have zero familiarity with, as he played before my time and I've not seen a lot of footage of him. But by all accounts he was tremendous.

Kid Minneapolis
09-07-2012, 03:46 PM
I found this article from 4 years ago. They included most of the guys were talking about as SGs... Iverson, West:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs

Few comments below it though saying they may not have Iverson ranked so high still.

ChicagoJ
09-07-2012, 04:23 PM
From what I always understood clearly defined positions like POINT guard and SHOOTING guard didn't come around until about 30 years or so, give or take. Before then, there were guards, forwards, and posts. This is why guys like Jerry West, Big O, etc were good scorers but also averaged high assist numbers as well, or why guys like Elgin Baylor (who was 6-5) was a double double machine. Players tended to just play to having clearly defined "roles"

2 guards, 2 forwards, 1 center.

The idea of "point guard", and "power forward" in particular were new in the early 1980s.

To the topic at hand...

I don't see how a guy that was never better than third-team all-NBA in a single season is in the top-three of all time. Or even the top-five.

Due to longevity and a reputation for clutch play over the second half of his career, I can see him in the top-ten, but not much higher than that.

Mitch may not have lasted 18 years, but nearly everybody would have taken Mitch Richmond in his prime over Reggie in his prime.

Reggie had sustained 'really-goodness', but did not reach as high of a level as, say, Glen Rice during his Charlotte years.

And I like Reggie and appreciate all he did for Indiana, but some of these opinions are based on love and not an objective analysis of the position.

Slick Pinkham
09-07-2012, 04:42 PM
And I like Reggie and appreciate all he did for Indiana, but some of these opinions are based on love and not an objective analysis of the position.

How do you explain the 45,000+ voters in the 2008 ESPN poll (a poll neither coinciding with his retirement nor with his HOF induction, so no extra publicity-driven "Reggie love") that placed him solidly in the top 10 all-time at his position? Unless you are (rightfully) criticizing those who have him in the top 3-4. He belongs in the top 10 though.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank/_/listId/102/versionId/1

Best career does not equal best peak of career either. David Thompson as a SG and Bernard King as a SF are not up there in the top 5 at their positions for the shining few seasons when they reached that level.

Final point: regular season awards and regular season performance are only part of the equation, but they are all that goes into all-NBA teams and MVP voting.

ChicagoJ
09-07-2012, 04:49 PM
How do you explain the 45,000+ voters in the 2008 ESPN poll (a poll neither coinciding with his retirement nor with his HOF induction, so no extra publicity-driven "Reggie love") that placed him solidly in the top 10 all-time at his position?

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank/_/listId/102/versionId/1

I'll buy-top ten. But not top-three or top-five. I don't know that I can name ten that had better careers overall, but I can name quite a few that had higher peaks.

Kid Minneapolis
09-07-2012, 07:32 PM
2 guards, 2 forwards, 1 center.

The idea of "point guard", and "power forward" in particular were new in the early 1980s.

To the topic at hand...

I don't see how a guy that was never better than third-team all-NBA in a single season is in the top-three of all time. Or even the top-five.

Due to longevity and a reputation for clutch play over the second half of his career, I can see him in the top-ten, but not much higher than that.

Mitch may not have lasted 18 years, but nearly everybody would have taken Mitch Richmond in his prime over Reggie in his prime.

Reggie had sustained 'really-goodness', but did not reach as high of a level as, say, Glen Rice during his Charlotte years.

And I like Reggie and appreciate all he did for Indiana, but some of these opinions are based on love and not an objective analysis of the position.

Uhhhh no. Mitch and Glen, both fine players, never carried a team, accomplished anything remotely close to Reggie in the playoffs, did not sustain as long, and neither is in the Hall. The most defining event to me was Reggie's last game, where the opposing coach called a timeout to give a player a standing ovation. You just don't see that, ever. He was massively respected by his peers in the league, moreso than it would appear by fans. I'll go with the opinion of his peers over dissenters on a messageboard. Reggie in Hall --- Mitch and Glen not. 'Nuff said.

One season does not a HoF'er make. If that was the case, jermaine O'Neal is a shoo in, since he arguably had one season that was debatably better than any of Reggie's, statistically. Throw Granger in there, too, since he had a higher statistical "peak".

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

BlueNGold
09-07-2012, 10:22 PM
The HOF is about many things, but a few peaks don't get you there. Miller's career had a lot to say, but the fear he struck in opponents at crunch time is why he's in the HOF. His main value was that there wasn't a player who could stop him from getting his shot off. Hit or miss. Reggie is special because of that skill and just how highly valued it is in the important games....which is all that matters in the NBA....

cdash
09-07-2012, 11:27 PM
Reggie.
God.




Everyone else. **** you, rational thinking. Dude's my hero.

ChicagoJ
09-11-2012, 12:52 PM
Uhhhh no. Mitch and Glen, both fine players, never carried a team, accomplished anything remotely close to Reggie in the playoffs, did not sustain as long, and neither is in the Hall. The most defining event to me was Reggie's last game, where the opposing coach called a timeout to give a player a standing ovation. You just don't see that, ever. He was massively respected by his peers in the league, moreso than it would appear by fans. I'll go with the opinion of his peers over dissenters on a messageboard. Reggie in Hall --- Mitch and Glen not. 'Nuff said.

One season does not a HoF'er make. If that was the case, jermaine O'Neal is a shoo in, since he arguably had one season that was debatably better than any of Reggie's, statistically. Throw Granger in there, too, since he had a higher statistical "peak".

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


I'm not disputing any of that.

But I'm not putting Reggie in my top-five as I'd absolutely take the 1993 version of Petrovic over any vintage of Reggie, the 1994 version of Sprewell (and probably also the 1999 version of Sprewell) over any vintage of Reggie, the 1996-98 version of Glen Rice over any vintage of Reggie, and the 1996-98 version of Mitch Richmond over any version of Reggie.

Reggie had a better overall career than every one of them. Probably wouldn't have had a better career than Drazen but we'll never know.

But during Reggie's peak years of 1994-1998, he was typically around the fourth or fifth best SG in the league. (There was also this Jordan dude playing most of those seasons as well.)

We're celebrating Reggie's longevity and overall career with his vote into the Hall of Fame. He gave us a lot of memories. Its an interesting situation, because his overall career, due to longevity, means he's remembered more fondly than guys that routinely were better than him -- even at his own peak -- but faded away faster.

Kid Minneapolis
09-11-2012, 03:25 PM
You'd take those guys because they had 1 statistical year arguably (key word: arguably) better than any of Reggies? I'd never build around any of those guys... none of them were a player you'd "build a team around", whereas Reggie was most certainly the player that Indy built around. He's in a different category than all of those players... it's not even a contest. Once a player is determined to be a true cornerstone of a franchise, capable of withstanding the pressure of anchoring a team for over a decade deep into the playoffs every year, they enter a whole new level. Can you seriously say Glen Rice, Mitch Richmond, SPREWELL, of all people, could legitimately anchor a decade of deep playoff runs? None of those guys are in the Hall and they all retired before Reggie. Their peaks hardly equalled Reggie's best "scoring" years, which arguably weren't even his best overall years, and none of them lasted as long. I don't even know how this is equatable. Stating I'm biased because I'm a Pacer fan is hardly an argument, I watch these games, lol... I know the good players in this league. Statistically, Granger blows Reggie out of the water in a lot of categories, and would I state that he's anywhere close to Reggie's ability? Hell.... no.

None of those guys were ever "routinely" better than Reggie... ever. A few had a season here and there where they averaged more points, but not a single one ever lifted their teams into deep playoff runs on his shoulders alone, elevated his game by 5+ ppg and performed as excellent as Reggie in the playoffs --- ever. This is just a silly argument.

It's like you have a blinder or bias to Reggie's true value. There are large stretches of games in the playoffs and regular season where it was obvious Reggie was the best player on the floor, for either team, including those guys you mentioned. Just because those guys had 1 season where they mighta topped Reggie in ppg doesn't make them a better overall player. As an example, would I place his 1990 season above his 1998 season, even though he averaged 6 ppg more? I wouldn't. It's not about ppg.

Reggie is firmly in that Malone/Stockton/Barkley/Ewing realm of players.... tremendous cornerstone players who had they not peaked during the Jordan years, would have each equally had a chance to win a ring. Glen Rice? Sprewell? What? To even mention the train-wreck that was Sprewell in the same sentence as Reggie is an insult.

Eleazar
09-11-2012, 05:53 PM
I agree with you Kid. There are players who put up great stats, then there are great players. Usually great players put up great stats, but often good players also put up great stats. That is why I mostly ignore direct statistical comparisons when comparing players. A player like Reggie putting up 18ppg can dominate the game, while a player like Carter can put up 21ppg, and is just another player on the floor who just happens to put up a lot of points.

naptownmenace
09-12-2012, 03:00 PM
Uhhhh no. Mitch and Glen, both fine players, never carried a team, accomplished anything remotely close to Reggie in the playoffs, did not sustain as long, and neither is in the Hall. The most defining event to me was Reggie's last game, where the opposing coach called a timeout to give a player a standing ovation. You just don't see that, ever. He was massively respected by his peers in the league, moreso than it would appear by fans. I'll go with the opinion of his peers over dissenters on a messageboard. Reggie in Hall --- Mitch and Glen not. 'Nuff said.

One season does not a HoF'er make. If that was the case, jermaine O'Neal is a shoo in, since he arguably had one season that was debatably better than any of Reggie's, statistically. Throw Granger in there, too, since he had a higher statistical "peak".

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Anyone who compares Reggie's regular season performance to any other SG is totally missing what made him a HOFer. The thing that set Reggie apart was his ability to come up big in the playoffs. Reggie averaged 21.1 ppg in the playoffs. Before his role deminished during his last 3 seasons, his average was a gaudy 24 ppg - nearly 5 points more than what he averaged during the regular season!

Mitch Richmond never made any noise in the playoffs or in the clutch. A lot of that is due to his poor level of talent around him but his play during the playoffs never matched his during the season production.

Tracy McGrady was one of the best regular season SGs of all-time. He couldn't get his teams, even with a 3-1 lead with Orlando or an in his prime Yao Ming and Steve Francis, to the 2nd round.

Glenn Rice was a great scorer for about 2-3 years. Ultimately he fizzled out due to injuries even though he was a very good player that torched the Pacers a few times during the 2000 Finals.

Reggie was clutch. All of the NBA greats agree. That's what made him famous, hence he is in the Hall of Fame.

ChicagoJ
09-12-2012, 04:29 PM
Anyone who compares Reggie's regular season performance to any other SG is totally missing what made him a HOFer. The thing that set Reggie apart was his ability to come up big in the playoffs. Reggie averaged 21.1 ppg in the playoffs. Before his role deminished during his last 3 seasons, his average was a gaudy 24 ppg - nearly 5 points more than what he averaged during the regular season!

Mitch Richmond never made any noise in the playoffs or in the clutch. A lot of that is due to his poor level of talent around him but his play during the playoffs never matched his during the season production.

Tracy McGrady was one of the best regular season SGs of all-time. He couldn't get his teams, even with a 3-1 lead with Orlando or an in his prime Yao Ming and Steve Francis, to the 2nd round.

Glenn Rice was a great scorer for about 2-3 years. Ultimately he fizzled out due to injuries even though he was a very good player that torched the Pacers a few times during the 2000 Finals.

Reggie was clutch. All of the NBA greats agree. That's what made him famous, hence he is in the Hall of Fame.


Right. Reggie won playoff games and series with more regularity than players that were better than him. Those playoff wins were team accomplishments, not individual accomplishments. Just as Russell's championships don't make him a better player than Wilt just because Russell had a better supporting cast of HoFers. Reggie had longevity and playoff wins and thus he's remembered more favorably than players that were better than him. That's why I think top-ten is appopriate but not top-three or top-five.

naptownmenace
09-12-2012, 05:12 PM
Right. Reggie won playoff games and series with more regularity than players that were better than him. Those playoff wins were team accomplishments, not individual accomplishments. Just as Russell's championships don't make him a better player than Wilt just because Russell had a better supporting cast of HoFers. Reggie had longevity and playoff wins and thus he's remembered more favorably than players that were better than him. That's why I think top-ten is appopriate but not top-three or top-five.

As long as you're not putting Mitch Richmond or Glen Rice ahead of Reggie, I agree. BTW, Reggie was the leading scorer on the 1996 Olympics team playing ahead of Mitch.

I'll also add one more caveat. I remember at least a dozen games where Smits and McKey were no-shows and Reggie had to dig them out of holes. So while playoff wins is a team accomplishment, Reggie was the one that hit a record 320 3-pointers during the playoffs that propelled the Pacers to many of those close wins.

ChicagoJ
09-12-2012, 05:16 PM
Right. I'm using them as examples of many players that had higher peaks, but less longevity, than Reggie. Their careers weren't better because they faded faster, but if Reggie faded just as fast as they did we wouldn't be having conversations about Reggie in the Hall either.

Kid Minneapolis
09-12-2012, 09:21 PM
Right. I'm using them as examples of many players that had higher peaks, but less longevity, than Reggie. Their careers weren't better because they faded faster, but if Reggie faded just as fast as they did we wouldn't be having conversations about Reggie in the Hall either.

Disagree. He played 18 years, even if you cut it short 6 whole years he still played 12 years and MOST of his huge playoff performances happened within that time span. I'm just not buying your argument at all man, lol... And you're selling him short on his actual longevity, which in of itself is impressive. He didn't make it into the Hall because he played 18 years. You really seem to have forgotten what this guy did. Go YouTube the man, and take a trip down memory lane, he was a beast of a player for a looooong time.

Kid Minneapolis
09-12-2012, 09:28 PM
Right. Reggie won playoff games and series with more regularity than players that were better than him.

This just makes no sense. If he was regularly winning playoff games over a span of a decade and a half over all these "better" players, do you really start to believe he was "worse" than the players he's beating regularly? It's not like Reggie's teams remained static during his run. His team changed constantly, and Reggie was ALWAYS the face/leader of that team, going up against the likes of Jordan and not being embarrassed at all. He wasn't "worse" than those guys. He was.... better. He made his teams better, he willed them to be better. He was almost like Peyton, where the level of work he put in, the professionalism, the example he set... set the tone for the entire team. Every player on his teams had their best years when they played with him. Every one. They all went off and generally had worse production. And at the end of the game, he was so damn good, that he could say "alright guys, we got here together, now give me the ball and I'll show you how to win this thing" and he did it.

You're just not going anywhere with this argument, he was an all-time great player, whether you think it or not.

15th parallel
09-12-2012, 09:56 PM
I think how you rank shooting guards depends on what you look for in a shooting guard. Do you value shooting more? Or do you value scoring more? While they are related, they are two different things. In case of AI and Wade, they are really good scorers, and honestly better that Reggie in that respect. But as a shooter, they just aren't reliable if they are not driving to the basket. I respect the way they play, especially AI because he's one small guy on the floor but never fears contact and physical game. In Wade's case, the problem I see with him is that in recent years he depended on contact (read: getting fouls) more to get points, thus you see him constantly whining at the refs if he didn't get the fouls. For a player that has great tools, he's under-utilizing it recently. Well for Wade he still has time to solidify his position in the rankings as a top SG so if he starts playing like his old self he can easily be a top-3, but for now I think he's a little below Reggie.

What makes Reggie Miller truly great? His shooting percentage is just way above most shooting guards from the past and the present. That's efficiency for a position that never truly is efficient (high-scoring shooting guards are commonly high-volume shooters). Now you may argue that he's just averaging 18ppg in the regular season for his entire career. Well, he's in a situation where the system plays offense as a team, and yeah he's not really the athletic-type that can just score without the help of screens or can shake his defender on the dribble drive. But his value in the playoffs is where he's most remarkable. Increasing scoring average every playoffs while maintaining that high shooting efficiency is not something common even in big-name players. Add the heroics and the theatrics, and you just get a top-caliber shooting guard in the NBA. For me, he's a top-5 player in his position. Homer-ranked, maybe. But that's just how I value him as a shooting guard, a player that has great shooting range, has reliable free throw shooting, and simply clutch when you needed a basket.

TOP
09-13-2012, 10:37 AM
I don't get how you can't put Wade and Kobe ahead. Iverson is arguable because he had the skills but not the longevity. Allen, however, is about as close as you can get to Reggie based on his effect on the game - what do you see that puts Reggie ahead of him other than some high-visibility playoff performances?

I agree with Kobe but I wouldn't put Wade ahead of Reggie. He only managed 1 championship with Shaq and at least one season so far he didn't win a championship with Lebron/Bosh. Then you look at what he did without those guys and his teams were awful. Wade has had his moment but quite frankly, I thought the the refs made sure the Heat beat the Mavs the first time around. He was getting every phantom foul in the book after being down 0-2 to the Mavs. He went on to break Jordan's record for free throws? At the end of the day, he has two championships but I don't think the first one was legit and he was so bad at leading the Heat at one point that they were able to land the #2 overall pick. His list was top 12 and he had wade 4. I'm sorry but I think I could come up with a number of shooting guards all time that would lead their team to a better record than the #2 pick. Even if they had one of the worst rosters in the NBA that season.

ChicagoJ
09-13-2012, 04:24 PM
You're just not going anywhere with this argument, he was an all-time great player, whether you think it or not.

Show me exactly where I said he wasn't an all-time top-ten SG? You're just firing back at me without trying to understand my point, which is more subtle than nuclear. Yeesh.