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View Full Version : Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?



neosmndrew
08-21-2012, 06:33 PM
Sorry for the strongly worded title, but I don't think I've ever seen a not great coach get treated like the worst coach ever like this, and I cannot understand why. He forwent a weakness so we could focus on a strength. Its worked for other teams in the past, the difference with us that we weren't super talented. He never had us as anywhere near a cellar dweller, despite that we did not have great talent. Sure he was stubborn, but he at least got results, albeit pretty mediocre ones.

My point: He was a very, very average coach. People treat him here like the anti-Christ, sent to Earth to eradicate all the post-Brawl Pacers fans. He had an up-tempo style that got us an average amount of wins. He was an old-schooler, which obviously young guys don't like. He did what was expected until the end, when we got a coach that could better utilize a more talented roster. I just want us to settle like gents why we really hate this guy, because I feel complaining as much as people here do about JOB makes us sound like spoiled brats when compared to teams with a good amount more talent, such as the Warriors or Wizards.

vnzla81
08-21-2012, 06:38 PM
He was the Devil and nobody would change that.

adamscb
08-21-2012, 06:42 PM
x's and o's wise, yes he was very average. it was his personality that made people mad. and i like seeing people fired up about this, it shows that we're still passionate for our team.

Eleazar
08-21-2012, 06:59 PM
No, he really is that bad of a coach. He has no idea how to use the players he has to the best of their ability unless they are a stretch 4, and had no concept of consistency.

cdash
08-21-2012, 07:03 PM
I pose a different question: Can we please stop talking about this ****er? It's been almost two years. Move on.

Kegboy
08-21-2012, 07:29 PM
Hell no! We finally found something that got us off the Brawl. :suicide4:

Seriously, if the worst problem a fandom has is arguing just how awful their former coach was, things are pretty damn good.

Sandman21
08-21-2012, 07:30 PM
He forced MurphPosey down our throats.

NO MERCY FOR JIM THE QUITTER!

BlueNGold
08-21-2012, 07:35 PM
I understand why some get tired of it. But no. You are free to not participate in JOb threads. For others who have been mad for literally years by this man's actions. they deserve to return him years of whippings. For those supporting Jim and caught in the middle of the frenzy...I'm sorry. Just get out of the way and be thankful it's not one of the current players.

Also, if he were an average NBA coach, he wouldn't be the 3rd choice for an assistant position after using his ample connections through Boston and the Ramsey connections. Whether his x's and o's were average or not, taking his treatment of players into account he really is a bad coach. Perhaps even worse then a dimwit because he poisoned team chemistry...on a team full of choir boys.

Sookie
08-21-2012, 07:41 PM
I've been a fan of basketball for the past 12 years, and I'm somewhat obsessive compulsive so I've watched a lot of it. :P

He's the worst coach...in every sense of the word..I've ever seen. Period. I don't even think I've got an accurate picture of what a bad coach is anymore because O'brien is my standard.

Eleazar
08-21-2012, 07:53 PM
Just for the record, just because a person is a bad head coach does not mean they are a bad assistant coach.

Slick Pinkham
08-21-2012, 08:16 PM
It is already settled. He was a bad coach. Was he worse than Isiah Thomas? Probably yes. Was he worse than any other Pacers coach since the 80s? Possibly yes.

Does that mean that he cannot do a somewhat decent job coaching somewhere else? No.

/end thread

PacerDude
08-21-2012, 08:18 PM
JOB did exactly what the Pacers hired him to do. He 'coached' the group of misfits we had while Bird changed the roster. He knew it when he took the job.

McKeyFan
08-21-2012, 08:35 PM
Sorry for the strongly worded title, but I don't think I've ever seen a not great coach get treated like the worst coach ever like this, and I cannot understand why. He forwent a weakness so we could focus on a strength. Its worked for other teams in the past, the difference with us that we weren't super talented. He never had us as anywhere near a cellar dweller, despite that we did not have great talent. Sure he was stubborn, but he at least got results, albeit pretty mediocre ones.

My point: He was a very, very average coach. People treat him here like the anti-Christ, sent to Earth to eradicate all the post-Brawl Pacers fans. He had an up-tempo style that got us an average amount of wins. He was an old-schooler, which obviously young guys don't like. He did what was expected until the end, when we got a coach that could better utilize a more talented roster. I just want us to settle like gents why we really hate this guy, because I feel complaining as much as people here do about JOB makes us sound like spoiled brats when compared to teams with a good amount more talent, such as the Warriors or Wizards.
Starting a thread about JOB is a great way to end debate on the subject.

:laugh:

beast23
08-21-2012, 08:43 PM
I pose a different question: Can we please stop talking about this ****er? It's been almost two years. Move on.

Bingo!!!!

That's really the only thing we need to agree to... That we not talk about JOB... Ever again. As a matter of fact, I propose that his name never again be used in a forum post. This would please the majority of us very, very much.

PacerDude
08-21-2012, 08:46 PM
That we not talk about JOB... Ever again. As a matter of fact, I propose that his name never again be used in a forum post..
You broke your own rule.

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 09:27 PM
As to the question is he The worst coach ever. I use the 2002 Boston Celtics to prove otherwise. The job he did there was coach of the year worthy. Taking that team to game 6 of the ECF was remarkable. He all coached rings around Isiah in the 2003 playoffs

Naptown_Seth
08-21-2012, 09:33 PM
No, he really is that bad of a coach. He has no idea how to use the players he has to the best of their ability unless they are a stretch 4, and had no concept of consistency.
And was a total d*** to his young players for no good reason, probably trying to pull the old (terribly outdated) "break 'em down and then mold them" approach.

He was Isiah Thomas with a bad attitude. And to top it off he was just as arrogant with the fanbase. If he touted a stat that said to play Troy and a fan called into his show and brought it up when it backed playing someone else then he'd berate them and dismiss the issue with "there's more than one stat".

vnzla81
08-21-2012, 09:42 PM
I remember the time Dukedinamite called him, that was some funny s*** :laugh:

Hoop
08-21-2012, 10:02 PM
As to the question is he The worst coach ever. I use the 2002 Boston Celtics to prove otherwise. The job he did there was coach of the year worthy. Taking that team to game 6 of the ECF was remarkable. He all coached rings around Isiah in the 2003 playoffs
They hated him Philly, for most of the same type things people hated him here for. I've read alot about his stay in Boston and Philly not many good things have been said about either stop.

Have you ever thought that Boston was a fluke, you now those things do happen. You honestly think he would have duplicated that the next season.

He resigned in Boston, after they got rid of his security blankets (Walter and Fatoine). They were not exactly mad that he left, they got rid of him without having to pay him. He again had the same criticisms in Boston.

He's a one trick pony with a flawed trick.

Sollozzo
08-21-2012, 10:05 PM
As to the question is he The worst coach ever. I use the 2002 Boston Celtics to prove otherwise. The job he did there was coach of the year worthy. Taking that team to game 6 of the ECF was remarkable. He all coached rings around Isiah in the 2003 playoffs


His style is okay when you have a red hot Pierce and Walker to jack up bunch of shots against a team of mental midgets like the 2003 Pacers, a squad which had completely imploded. But the Celtics were swept the next round by NJ because that style can't compete against an elite team. And couldn't virtually anyone coach rings around Isiah?

I'm not going to give him an abundance of credit for getting the 02 Celtics to the ECF's in an absolutely pathetically weak Eastern Conference. The Nets were the only legitimate team in the East that year. That was the year before the Pistons added Billups, Hamilton, and Prince. Detroit won 50 games that year, but that was a much different roster than the teams that went on those deep playoff runs in later years. The Sixers, who had made the Finals the previous year, only won 43 games in 02. The Bucks collapsed and didn't even make the playoffs. Then you had teams like the Hornets, Magic, and us, which were basically .500 teams. The fact is, the 2002 Eastern Conference without question has to be one of the worst conferences in the history of the modern NBA. The fact that Pierce, Walker, and the rest of that team jacking up a bunch of threes was good enough to make the ECFs tells you just how bad that conference was. That team wouldn't get close to the conference finals in most years.

In route to the ECF's, Boston beat a 43 win Philly team and a Detroit team with a core of Stackhouse/RObinson/Corliss Williamson/Chucky Atkins/Ben Wallace. That's hardly remarkable, IMHO. You can't control who is on your schedule, but that has to be one of the easiest routes to the conference finals ever.

Ace E.Anderson
08-21-2012, 10:25 PM
I can't believe this guy STILL brings up so much conversation and controversy from Pacer fans! I'm hoping the reason he's being brought up and talked about is merely a coincidence bc he just signed as an assistant with the Mavs.

vnzla81
08-21-2012, 10:39 PM
I also remember the time Hicks and Gnome interviewed and took a picture with the clown, he told them that he was going to change and Was going to play Roy in the post more often :lmao:

spazzxb
08-21-2012, 10:53 PM
Bingo!!!!

That's really the only thing we need to agree to... That we not talk about JOB... Ever again. As a matter of fact, I propose that his name never again be used in a forum post. This would please the majority of us very, very much.


Thats what I have wanted for the last year.

ChicagoJ
08-21-2012, 11:00 PM
He doesn't even make the three worst coaches in the Pacers all-time history.

Last: George Irvine
Second Worst: Dick Versace
Third Worst: Isiah Thomas.

Jim O'Brien is a below-average to average coach, who happened to be coaching a very below-average team in Indianapolis.

He ain't as bad as those three clowns, though.

If you want to change the order of cotton-ball head and Zeke, okay. But they were both worse than O'Brien.

OlBlu
08-21-2012, 11:00 PM
Sorry for the strongly worded title, but I don't think I've ever seen a not great coach get treated like the worst coach ever like this, and I cannot understand why. He forwent a weakness so we could focus on a strength. Its worked for other teams in the past, the difference with us that we weren't super talented. He never had us as anywhere near a cellar dweller, despite that we did not have great talent. Sure he was stubborn, but he at least got results, albeit pretty mediocre ones.

My point: He was a very, very average coach. People treat him here like the anti-Christ, sent to Earth to eradicate all the post-Brawl Pacers fans. He had an up-tempo style that got us an average amount of wins. He was an old-schooler, which obviously young guys don't like. He did what was expected until the end, when we got a coach that could better utilize a more talented roster. I just want us to settle like gents why we really hate this guy, because I feel complaining as much as people here do about JOB makes us sound like spoiled brats when compared to teams with a good amount more talent, such as the Warriors or Wizards.

If he was not a very good coach, he would not have been hired to be the Dallas assistant head coach. JOB did a GREAT job with the talent he was given and he brought discipline to a team that sorely needed it.....:cool:

OlBlu
08-21-2012, 11:01 PM
I pose a different question: Can we please stop talking about this ****er? It's been almost two years. Move on.


He isn't a loser. He never was. He had a winning record in the NBA until he took on rebuilding the Pacers. He will do a good job for Dallas too....:cool:

ChicagoJ
08-21-2012, 11:04 PM
He coached rings around Isiah in the 2003 playoffs

This is the correct answer.

Isiah in the 2003 playoffs - remember game one?

Dear God.

Don't make me pull that play-by-play out of the PD archives.

Remember - he ran out of timeouts because he burned one to prevent one of Ron's meltdowns, "accidentally" took Reggie of out the game when the C's were at the line -- in the last 24 seconds when the Pacers had 0 timeouts and the Celtics missed the freethrow. The Pacers rebounded and the only way they could stop the clock to get Reggie back in the game was to commit a turnover.

That's awful.

I didn't like Jim O'Brien's emphasis on perimeter play, but he wasn't THAT bad.

PacerPenguins
08-21-2012, 11:12 PM
James Posey..... that is all

MillerTime
08-21-2012, 11:56 PM
JOB was a bad coach. He did not know how to utilize talents of the players.

Plain and simple - he got fire, Vogel stepped in and got us to the playoffs in 2011. Vogel went 20 - 18 in the last 38 games with the same roster that JOB had

docpaul
08-22-2012, 12:33 AM
Not our problem anymore.

Nothing to see here folks... thanks for stopping by.

Brad8888
08-22-2012, 01:08 AM
And the beat goes on
And the beat goes on.

Retaining O'Brien was the only tanking strategy the Pacers had available short of infecting their players with various communicable diseases during the course of his regime. Their talent level was too good. The instant turnaround for the one game under Lester Conner where they played correctly and in the proper positions as well as the remainder of the season of the great emancipation where the Pacers could easily have ousted the Bulls in the first round of the playoffs were clear illustrations that either O'Brien was a willing participant in a brilliantly disguised tank, or that the game of professional basketball had long ago passed him and his rigid and completely predictable strategies by.

O'Brien's poor rotations, playing his available talent out of position and away from their strengths or not at all for absolutely no basketball reason other than being young, as well as his complete lack of clock and momentum management were each maddening, but the combination of all of them did what even the brawl and the events that transpired after could not - namely, drive away a good portion of the remainder of the core of the fanbase as paying customers. Even Isiah Thomas didn't accomplish that.

Debate settled?

spazzxb
08-22-2012, 03:33 AM
He isn't a loser. He never was. He had a winning record in the NBA until he took on rebuilding the Pacers. He will do a good job for Dallas too....:cool:

You don't put *** in the word looser. Pretty sure he meant something else. Try something with an f. I bet he has done it at least once so he is one:-)

15th parallel
08-22-2012, 04:28 AM
While I don't like JOB as a coach, I think he's not as bad as some people think. Heck he has a pretty decent coaching record than most of his peers in the business.

The thing with JOB is that he's a coach that's like a fixed shape, meaning his philosophy is fixed, his pattern is fixed, his style of coaching is fixed, etc. That is why he clicked on some teams, like Boston for example, while did not on a team like Indiana. While this is obvious to all, his coaching style revolves around these:

- He likes a big man who can shoot from outside the perimeter. Walker and Posey flourished under his coaching. Stretch 4 is somehow synonimous with JOB.

- He loves 3-pointers. Pierce and Granger for example, made a living outside when JOB was their coach.

- He does not rely on point guards to set plays, and never likes them to be ball-dominant. Ball-dominant point guards, like DC and TJ, never had a great career under him. And he likes continuous ball movement, although mostly from outside the arc.

- He likes to play veterans. Veteran teams like the Celtics and Sixers made the playoffs without too much fiasco over playing time. In the Pacers, well Roy Hibbert as a rookie never had much of a significant career mainly due to Rasho playing more. And the PF spots mainly belong to Murphy and Posey duing his era as Pacers HC, both are veterans and outside shooters, as opposed to Josh and Tyler.

- His rotation is fixed. Regardless of how good you were the last game, a bench player will always be a bench player for him. A starter, even though struggling, will still get the bulk of the minutes.

In Dallas as an assistant coach, I think his offense will be well-suited because Dallas not only has Dirk as the stretch 4, and also the main guy, but that team is also loaded with veteran role players that will have little problems with regards to offensive roles and playing time (although it's still Rick's call when it comes to PT and plays). Aside from that, JOB won't have problems working on defense because Rick has been there sharpening their defense, which is one of the best in the league. It will be interesting how Rick and JOB, 2 guys that are good and bad on opposing fields, will be coaching that team.

So to summarize, JOB before the Indiana coaching gig was a good one. JOB in Indiana is a bad coach, one of the worst in recent Pacers history. JOB with Dallas can potentially be good.

JB24
08-22-2012, 06:02 AM
I've been a fan of basketball for the past 12 years, and I'm somewhat obsessive compulsive so I've watched a lot of it. :P

He's the worst coach...in every sense of the word..I've ever seen. Period. I don't even think I've got an accurate picture of what a bad coach is anymore because O'brien is my standard.

Yeah sorry, but this is just some serious hyperbole. Ok, he should have been let go at some point during his third season, and definitely should not have been extended, but he did a fairly decent job in his first two seasons.

do people actually forget the 08-09 season? There were a few coaching brain farts, but go look at that roster and tell me if they had any business being in that many close games/ coming close to securing a playoff spot. If the goal was to tread water (and that appears to have been the FO's goal) then by that measure he did all he could and maximized the strengths of that squad. Sure, as a fan I probably would have done a better job in developing the young guys. But by doing that I probably would have finished with ten less wins and been let go by bird at the end of the season.

Really?
08-22-2012, 07:49 AM
I pose a different question: Can we please stop talking about this ****er? It's been almost two years. Move on.

I was wondering how he made his way back to this site...

McKeyFan
08-22-2012, 07:51 AM
No.

(In answer to the original post.)

Unclebuck
08-22-2012, 08:28 AM
They hated him Philly, for most of the same type things people hated him here for. I've read alot about his stay in Boston and Philly not many good things have been said about either stop.

Have you ever thought that Boston was a fluke, you now those things do happen. You honestly think he would have duplicated that the next season.

He resigned in Boston, after they got rid of his security blankets (Walter and Fatoine). They were not exactly mad that he left, they got rid of him without having to pay him. He again had the same criticisms in Boston.

He's a one trick pony with a flawed trick.

I made a post a few months back with some very positive comments from players about his time in Boston. He was well liked in Boston and he did I believe by any objective measure a very good job in Boston.

Hoop, you are one of my favorite posters, but I strongly disagree with you that gettign to the Eastern Conference finals is a fluke - it is never a fluke. This isn't the NCAA - the better team almost always wins the playoff series. No, Jim did a great coahcing job to get that Celtics team to the ECF.

The Siixers were better the season Jim coached them then they were the season before or the season after. He wasn't well liked by the players there, but a lot of coaches are not well liked.

vnzla81
08-22-2012, 09:01 AM
I also remember the time he was leaving Melo open because his book told him to..... Of course we could forget that because he made it to the ECF with Boston right?

Unclebuck
08-22-2012, 09:23 AM
I also remember the time he was leaving Melo open because his book told him to..... Of course we could forget that because he made it to the ECF with Boston right?

Melo's three point shooting % was low, so the Pacers allowed him to get a few three pointers. That strategy is certainly within the bounds of reasonable NBA coaching. Happens all the time, teams still give Lebron the open threes. Does that mean every coach who tells his player to give Lebron a little room at the three point line, the worst coach of alltime.

Sollozzo
08-22-2012, 09:26 AM
Hoop, you are one of my favorite posters, but I strongly disagree with you that gettign to the Eastern Conference finals is a fluke - it is never a fluke. This isn't the NCAA - the better team almost always wins the playoff series. No, Jim did a great coahcing job to get that Celtics team to the ECF.


The 2002 Eastern Conference was without question one of the weakest conferences in the history of the NBA. Just an abysmal collection of teams. The Celtics beat a 43 Sixer team and a Detroit team with a Stackhouse/Atkins/Ben Wallace/Corlis Williamson core. That year, a red-hot Pierce and Walker was enough to get them to the ECF's. In most seasons, however, they would not have had a prayer at the conference finals. The following season, the Nets swept them out of the playoffs.

Since86
08-22-2012, 09:30 AM
Melo's three point shooting % was low, so the Pacers allowed him to get a few three pointers. That strategy is certainly within the bounds of reasonable NBA coaching. Happens all the time, teams still give Lebron the open threes. Does that mean every coach who tells his player to give Lebron a little room at the three point line, the worst coach of alltime.

Letting a player continue shooting once he's established that he's hitting the shot isn't not a reasonable coaching strategy. If he's mising, you take a step back and encourage it. When he's hitting, you don't keep your strategy and allow him to bury you.

Strategy shifts can happen during games. That's what good coaches do. It's what bad coaches don't do.

Unclebuck
08-22-2012, 09:34 AM
Letting a player continue shooting once he's established that he's hitting the shot isn't not a reasonable coaching strategy. If he's mising, you take a step back and encourage it. When he's hitting, you don't keep your strategy and allow him to bury you.

Strategy shifts can happen during games. That's what good coaches do. It's what bad coaches don't do.

I don't remember, how many threes did he hit that game . And how are we going to determine whether Jim did make an adjustment. We all know that once a player gets hot sometimes even double teaming they continue to hit shots.

When was this game. I am curious, i'd like to see the box score. Was this in Jim's last season or third?


OK - I located the game it was 1/23/10 - in the middle of a 6 game losing streak 3 games before his firing.

He shot 6 for 8 from threes. One thing the play-by-play does not detail is missed three point shots.

But here is when He hit the threes.

1) 4:19 - first quarter
2) 9:16 - third quarter
3) 8:40 - third quarter
4) 3:08 - third quarter
5) 2:25 - third quarter
6) 1:03 - third quarter


So there was no reason to make any adjustments at halftime - 5 of the 6 threes came in the third quarter when the Nuggets went from a 10 point halftime lead to a 20 point end of third quarter lead. Seems to me the threes came really quick in what was a blowout.

The question is did Jim make any adjustments in the 3rd quarter - I don't know how we can ever determine that. he had lost the team by then, so who knows if he told the players after the first two threes in the 3rd to get up on Melo, or if we was content to play the percentages.

vnzla81
08-22-2012, 09:45 AM
I don't remember, how many threes did he hit that game . And how are we going to determine whether Jim did make an adjustment. We all know that once a player gets hot sometimes even double teaming they continue to hit shots.

When was this game. I am curious, i'd like to see the box score. Was this in Jim's last season or third?

He hit a bunch of 3's wide open with nobody on his face because "that was the strategy", at the end of the game they asked Melo about they "strategy" and he laughed his a** off, then they went to the clown and he said pretty much that his book told him to and that he would do it again.

Unclebuck
08-22-2012, 09:55 AM
Melo is a .322 career three point shooter, so yes if I were coaching against him I would be thrilled if he took 8 threes - whether open or not. Miuch better than his wing jumper or getting into the lane and getting to the free throw line/.

I would guess every coach's gameplan on melo is "give him the threes", pray he is three happy tonight.

I'll repeat, at the very least it is within the realm of NBA coahcing reasonableness to allow Melo to get some open threes.

McKeyFan
08-22-2012, 10:00 AM
I made a post a few months back with some very positive comments from players about his time in Boston. He was well liked in Boston and he did I believe by any objective measure a very good job in Boston.

Hoop, you are one of my favorite posters, but I strongly disagree with you that gettign to the Eastern Conference finals is a fluke - it is never a fluke. This isn't the NCAA - the better team almost always wins the playoff series. No, Jim did a great coahcing job to get that Celtics team to the ECF.

The Siixers were better the season Jim coached them then they were the season before or the season after. He wasn't well liked by the players there, but a lot of coaches are not well liked.

I agree with you, basically. You can't discount Jim's successes in Boston. I understand your wanting to argue against the proposition that JOB has always been and will forever be a horrible coach.

On the other hand, it is equal annoying to me that you can't seem to acknowledge that he was a bad coach here at Indianapolis. I don't know why he was so bad here, but he had some nice successes in Boston. I'm sure there's reasons. But to just stick your head in the sand forever and ever about this problems here . . . well, that annoys me as much as people annoy you who say he never had good moments as a coach.

vnzla81
08-22-2012, 10:02 AM
Melo is a .322 career three point shooter, so yes if I were coaching against him I would be thrilled if he took 8 threes - whether open or not. Miuch better than his wing jumper or getting into the lane and getting to the free throw line/.

I would guess every coach's gameplan on melo is "give him the threes", pray he is three happy tonight.

I'll repeat, at the very least it is within the realm of NBA coahcing reasonableness to allow Melo to get some open threes.

Wow, I always thought that a two years separation from JOB was going to open your eyes I guess I was wrong.

vapacersfan
08-22-2012, 10:05 AM
I made a post a few months back with some very positive comments from players about his time in Boston. He was well liked in Boston and he did I believe by any objective measure a very good job in Boston.

Hoop, you are one of my favorite posters, but I strongly disagree with you that gettign to the Eastern Conference finals is a fluke - it is never a fluke. This isn't the NCAA - the better team almost always wins the playoff series. No, Jim did a great coahcing job to get that Celtics team to the ECF.

The Siixers were better the season Jim coached them then they were the season before or the season after. He wasn't well liked by the players there, but a lot of coaches are not well liked.

That didn't used to be the case with the best of 5 series in the first round. Of course the Lakers lost in the first round and then it was magically decided it would be better to be a "best of 7" across the board.

/end side rant

Sollozzo
08-22-2012, 10:10 AM
That didn't used to be the case with the best of 5 series in the first round. Of course the Lakers lost in the first round and then it was magically decided it would be better to be a "best of 7" across the board.

/end side rant


The first round became a best of 7 in 2003. That was after three straight Laker championships.

vnzla81
08-22-2012, 10:12 AM
The clown had Murphy on Bynum and Dunleavy on Gasol at one time but he made the ECF with Boston so is ok, he had Posey on guys like Amare and Griffin but is ok because he made it to the ECF with Boston, he called Mcbob's irrelevant after having played the game of his life but is ok because he made it to the ECF with Boston...... :angry:

Unclebuck
08-22-2012, 10:16 AM
I agree with you, basically. You can't discount Jim's successes in Boston. I understand your wanting to argue against the proposition that JOB has always been and will forever be a horrible coach.

On the other hand, it is equal annoying to me that you can't seem to acknowledge that he was a bad coach here at Indianapolis. I don't know why he was so bad here, but he had some nice successes in Boston. I'm sure there's reasons. But to just stick your head in the sand forever and ever about this problems here . . . well, that annoys me as much as people annoy you who say he never had good moments as a coach.


Hopefully I can stop posting with this.

I thought at the time and still think that getting those Pacers teams to win 36 games in each of Jim's first two seasons, was a good coaching job. Not coach of the year quality, but so far so good quality.

Third season things fell apart to a degree, and I posted after that third season that Jim should not be brought back as I feared and figured season #4 would be worse than season #3.

Does this indicate my head is in the sand?

Many things I didn't agree with. Too many three point shots. his inability to get his players to buy into his defensive scheme a scheme which was fine a scheme which the Celtics used to great results in 2008. Never liked his wild subsitution pattern - I like a set rotation like Frank does it.

So no, I don't agree that Jim was a horrible coach when he was here. Two good seasons followed by a bad season and a half and it should have only been 1 bad season - bad decision to bring him back by TPTB.

Overall he was better than Isiah, Versace, Irvine. No where nearly as good as Brown, Carlisle and Bird. In the same class (sorry ChicagoJ) as Bob Hill.

So I guess I view him as an average coach during his time with the pacers.

Major Cold
08-22-2012, 10:20 AM
The difference between the Celtic's JOB and the Pacer's JOB is that the NBA changed. And his gimmicks were not working in the current NBA. They worked then, and that was fine. They worked occasionally with the Pacers. But if a team got hot from the perimeter, they were toast on defense. And if we weren't hot, we were toast. Those were the only variables. We didn't have a player like Pierce who could get into the lane and break down his opponent.

The Pacers of JOB were both not talented enough to break past the 8-10 seed in the East. And he wasn't good enough to take a rag tag bunch in the current NBA past that like he did with Boston.

'Nuff said!!!

Hicks
08-22-2012, 11:22 AM
I think O'Brien's negatives overpowered his positives.

graphic-er
08-22-2012, 11:25 AM
My biggest beef with him was his approach to the end of the season. We've had chances at a top lottery pick, I believe at one point we were the 3rd worst team in the league. Out the playoffs and this guy has the audacity to try and "save the season" and we won a bunch of games to close out the year. He should have shut it down and let all the young guys play majority minutes. I understand it looks bad for the franchise to unofficially tank, but at some point when you miss the playoffs 3-4 years in a row and you aren't getting better, you need to take your lumps as a franchise to get better, because nobody remember what you do when your losing. Maybe thats more of a comment on Larry Bird though, but the general attitude and approach from JOB did not help.

sam kaiserblade
08-22-2012, 11:32 AM
Coach O'brien should coach the olympic team. All they do is chuck 3s for the most part.

Sookie
08-22-2012, 12:42 PM
Yeah sorry, but this is just some serious hyperbole. Ok, he should have been let go at some point during his third season, and definitely should not have been extended, but he did a fairly decent job in his first two seasons.

do people actually forget the 08-09 season? There were a few coaching brain farts, but go look at that roster and tell me if they had any business being in that many close games/ coming close to securing a playoff spot. If the goal was to tread water (and that appears to have been the FO's goal) then by that measure he did all he could and maximized the strengths of that squad. Sure, as a fan I probably would have done a better job in developing the young guys. But by doing that I probably would have finished with ten less wins and been let go by bird at the end of the season.

No, it's really not. I said what I've seen, I'll be fair..I never saw Isiah. But I do watch Women's basketball so I've seen some bad coaches..

Jim O'brien had some logical ideas that he took to extremes so that they wouldn't be logical any longer. Those few logical ideas were about the only positives of that guy.

Those one and a half years (that I saw) were easily the worst coaching job I've ever seen. I've never seen a coach that was literally terrible at essentially every aspect of coaching. From X's and Os, to offensive philosophy and defensive philosophy, to helping to develop team chemistry, adjustments, or something as simple as what players to play (come on, a ten year old wouldn't stick James Posey on Blake Griffin) or you know..motivating your players. Just awful.

It says enough that a lot of fans get riled up about him...but players still do too.

ChicagoJ
08-22-2012, 03:25 PM
Overall he was better than Isiah, Versace, Irvine. No where nearly as good as Brown, Carlisle and Bird. In the same class (sorry ChicagoJ) as Bob Hill.

That's fair. We've got our three all-time best: Slick, Brown, Bird.
We've got our three all-time worst: Versace, Irvine, Isiah

Then there are a bunch in the middle, including Carlisle, Hill, Dr. Jack, Vogel, McKinney, and O'Brien. All significantly better than the bottom three, but O'Brien is also at the low end of that list. (I guess Staverman belongs on this list too, if anybody remembers him?)

Of those, only Carlisle and Dr. Jack could have done as much with the Spurs as what Bo Hill did. And even Bo's last NBA appearance with the Sonics -- a thankless task at that time -- I'm not sure any of those other guys could have gotten 53-81 out of a season and half of that roster. Yuck!

Bo was a turnaround guy - that middle coach that stops the bleeding, helps the front office maximize its assets, and then gets replaced when somebody "sexier" gets interested in taking over what he has done. Was Bo ever going to get them to the ECFs? Probably not, because the roster changed a LOT over Brown's first 15 months with the team and getting Byron Scott, Tony Davis, Derrick McKey and even Workman and later Mark Jackson helped a lot with making that team an ECF contender.

If Jim O'Brien has just been fundamentally sound, not using all those damn gimmicks and statistics, he might be solidly in the middle of the pack. And IMO, that's what he was better at in Boston and Philly - yes they shot a lot of 3's but those teams were more fundamentally sound. He'd gone off the deep-end with regards to fundamentals with the Pacers.

But he still wasn't as bad as Versace, Irvine, or Thomas.

docpaul
08-22-2012, 03:48 PM
It says enough that a lot of fans get riled up about him...but players still do too.

I actually think this is what's most damning about his legacy. Even casual fans often couldn't stand JOB. Current Pacers players are *still* talking about him. You certainly don't hear that level of disdain for many others.

graphic-er
08-22-2012, 03:49 PM
How is Isiah Thomas considered one of the worst. He got a freshly broken up team off an NBA finals Appearance, rebuilding on the fly. Made stars out of players like Brad Miller and JO. He got a team rebuilding on the fly into the playoffs, playing .500 ball. Probably his most egregious error was how he handled Croshere.

Unclebuck
08-22-2012, 04:03 PM
How is Isiah Thomas considered one of the worst. He got a freshly broken up team off an NBA finals Appearance, rebuilding on the fly. Made stars out of players like Brad Miller and JO. He got a team rebuilding on the fly into the playoffs, playing .500 ball. Probably his most egregious error was how he handled Croshere.

He was awful.

Disorganized, terrible use of timeouts, often running out of them before the last minutes of the game, often playing the starters the entire second half of games. Reggie at his advancved age averaged more minutes per game under Isiah than any other coach.

Using Bender at the point guard.

Using Mercer at point guard.

Players lost respect for him in his first year 9 still remember the Atlanta Constitution article in April of his first season. The article suggested he was not a hard worker, showing up late for practices. Not getting the team in good physical condition. Practice was very lax.

By his own admission, not working on defense until late December

The Quick - more than that though, the players didn't know what they were supposed to be doing.

The 2003 Pacers were the most talented NBA pacers team since I started following the Pacers.

But perhaps most damaging to him were the comments made by Mark Boyle and Slick after isiah was let go. They were extremely critical. Both said they doubt he'd ever work in the NBA again. They both seemed to have a distain for him that surprised me. (remember they travel with the team and see a lot of the behind the scenes that we don't)

I was very interested to hear what Mark and Slick said about JOB after he was let go. Sure they didn't rave about him, but nothing like Isiah

Sandman21
08-22-2012, 05:45 PM
And to top it off he was just as arrogant with the fanbase. If he touted a stat that said to play Troy and a fan called into his show and brought it up when it backed playing someone else then he'd berate them and dismiss the issue with "there's more than one stat".

Wasnt that dukedynamite who did that? (i was still living in deep southern indiana outside of radio's reach at the time)

BlueNGold
08-22-2012, 06:41 PM
Buck is right. Zeke really was at another level of bad. He got his opportunities in life purely because he was a great NBA PG. But he's a terrible coach, manager and business owner. He single handedly destroyed the Continental Basketball Association. He and Marbury were a disaster in New York. He set the Indiana Pacers back each year he was coaching.

In contrast, guys like Bird, Doc Rivers and Phil Jackson all got the same type of opportunities, but they actually had the work ethic required by the office and by life off the court. Thomas did not and that's why he got fired at Florida International as well.

So...yeh...Jim O'Brien is a better coach and manager than Zeke even considering how abusive and rude he was...

ChicagoJ
08-22-2012, 07:05 PM
Oh my goodness. Of our bottom three, Isiah was the absolute worst in-game coach I've ever seen.

Just full of 100s of bad ideas that he'd try.

Awful lineups/ rotations. Poor timeout use. Even in this third season he couldn't handle those things. You'd think he would have learned.

He had good assistants, invested a lot into player development, and Mark Aguirre as one example did a helluva job for the Pacers as an assistant. Chuck Person and Tree Rollins were great assistants (or I guess Chuck was technically in the front office but a key instructor in practice every day).

As much as his players developed individually, thanks to his assistants, the results on the court were not good.

And while the team was somewhat dismantled, only the Rik Smits retirement really hurt them. JO was traded for a future all-star PF/C. Jalen Rose was doing fine in the backcourt. Reggie still gave them leadership. Croshere was out of position, and disappointed, but the first year at about 0.500 was about right. The lack of progress in year #2 and the collapse during year #3 were the problems. And that's one of the reasons why the verdict is still out on Vogel. I wouldn't have told you Isiah was terrible after his first year. Confusing at times? Yes. But over time all of his flaws came out on full display.

And he was awful.

spazzxb
08-22-2012, 07:40 PM
Oh my goodness. Of our bottom three, Isiah was the absolute worst in-game coach I've ever seen.

Just full of 100s of bad ideas that he'd try.

Awful lineups/ rotations. Poor timeout use. Even in this third season he couldn't handle those things. You'd think he would have learned.

He had good assistants, invested a lot into player development, and Mark Aguirre as one example did a helluva job for the Pacers as an assistant. Chuck Person and Tree Rollins were great assistants (or I guess Chuck was technically in the front office but a key instructor in practice every day).

As much as his players developed individually, thanks to his assistants, the results on the court were not good.

And while the team was somewhat dismantled, only the Rik Smits retirement really hurt them. JO was traded for a future all-star PF/C. Jalen Rose was doing fine in the backcourt. Reggie still gave them leadership. Croshere was out of position, and disappointed, but the first year at about 0.500 was about right. The lack of progress in year #2 and the collapse during year #3 were the problems. And that's one of the reasons why the verdict is still out on Vogel. I wouldn't have told you Isiah was terrible after his first year. Confusing at times? Yes. But over time all of his flaws came out on full display.

And he was awful.

I think the verdict is pretty close on Vogel. If he didn't respect him as a coach I don't think Shaw would be willing to be his assistant again(this with the an advise of a man named Phil Jackson).

Bury Your Dead
08-22-2012, 07:44 PM
Sure its simple really. I hate JOB! And everyhting about him, to his personality, to his coaching style.

It was so bad that I remember about 3 to 4 years ago we were playing the Bulls at home and we were leading up to halftime, for the most part. Anyways he pulls the whole line-up out and replaces them with whomever he saw fit. I was booing so hard across the floor(courtside across from the home bench) and was saying fire JOB, fire JOB. People all around me were agreeing of course. We ended up losing the game. He would do that almost everyother game. I could and still can not understand his line up changes in games and out. Bugged the hell outta me. Like he'd just pull someone even if they were hot. It still makes me shake my head thinking about him.

OlBlu
08-22-2012, 07:44 PM
I think the verdict is pretty close on Vogel. If he didn't respect him as a coach I don't think Shaw would be willing to be his assistant again(this with the an advise of a man named Phil Jackson).

Or, he could want to be in the spot with the coach most likely to be fired so that he could be a convenient replacement. I think one can rest assured that Shaw does not have great respect for Vogel and would consider himself much more qualified (which he definitely is)......:cool:

spazzxb
08-22-2012, 08:01 PM
Or, he could want to be in the spot with the coach most likely to be fired so that he could be a convenient replacement. I think one can rest assured that Shaw does not have great respect for Vogel and would consider himself much more qualified (which he definitely is)......:cool:

I never said that Shaw thinks Vogel is better than he is. My point is that Shaw doesn't mind working with him. Also there is no reason to believe Vogel is likely to be fired. Its a good team and he likes the staff. If he wasn't going to get his own team he seams happy here. That doesn't happen when you are in constant disagreement with your leader.

ChicagoJ
08-22-2012, 10:19 PM
If Vogel isn't here, I want that other assistant out in LA. Yeah, you know who.

I say the verdict isn't out on Vogel because I've seen too many others plateau after a nice start. Some of you are projecting too much.