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Sandman21
08-17-2012, 10:43 AM
Poor Dahntay and DC:

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/tag/_/name/jim-obrien


The Mavericks' search for a successor to lead assistant coach Terry Stotts will continue without two of the prime names Rick Carlisle had been targeting.

Former Toronto Raptors coach Jay Triano, according to NBA coaching sources, is poised to join Stotts' staff in Portland as opposed to coming to Dallas.

That means Triano and Los Angeles Lakers-bound Steve Clifford, two highly regarded assistants that sources say Carlisle was eyeing, are off the market.

Former New York Knicks and Phoenix Suns assistant coach Phil Weber remains a Mavs candidate, sources said.

Yet the widely held assumption in coaching circles is that Carlisle wants to hire an assistant coach with head-coaching experience after the departures of Dwane Casey (to Toronto) and Stotts (to Portland) during the last two offseasons.

Two coaching sources said late Thursday that a new name to watch in the Mavs' search, who fulfills the head-coaching prerequisites, is Jim O'Brien, who replaced Carlisle in Indiana in the 2007 offseason.

Major Cold
08-17-2012, 10:46 AM
Wow. I don't see how Rick and JOB would be able to coach on the same team. They have such different approaches.

Trader Joe
08-17-2012, 10:50 AM
That probably makes JOB the perfect assistant to Rick in all honesty.

Kid Minneapolis
08-17-2012, 10:52 AM
Interesting pairing.

McKeyFan
08-17-2012, 10:55 AM
This continues to speak of O'Brien's high currency with Bird. I don't think Carlisle would be considering OB as an assistant if Bird was telling him how terrible he is.

imbtyler
08-17-2012, 12:05 PM
Can we just start a petition to get him banned from the NBA? Or force him to coach the Heat, Lakers, Knicks, Nets, or Pistons? That would really make things interesting.

PR07
08-17-2012, 12:09 PM
Well, he has probably one of the greatest "stretch 4's" of all time in Dirk. :buddies:

Sandman21
08-17-2012, 12:19 PM
Can we just start a petition to get him banned from the NBA? Or force him to coach the Heat, Lakers, Knicks, Nets, or Pistons? That would really make things interesting.

Why? As long as he aint here, its 2 to 4 wins for us a year! :D

J7F
08-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Poor DC and Dahntay...

Sandman21
08-17-2012, 12:22 PM
I think Roy and BRush meant this to be a DM exchange on Twitter.... :D

Brandon Rush @KCsFinest4

J.o.b to Dallas?
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
17m
Roy Hibbert @Hoya2aPacer

@KCsFinest4 I know right. I texted DC.
Expand
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10m
Brandon Rush @KCsFinest4

@Hoya2aPacer is it true tho?
Expand
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10m
Roy Hibbert @Hoya2aPacer

@KCsFinest4 if it is. I'm happy it's not me tho.
Hide conversation
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vnzla81
08-17-2012, 12:30 PM
Hahahahahahaha "pointing finger at Dallas" hahahaha :lmao:

PaceBalls
08-17-2012, 12:40 PM
The Mavs do have the greatest stretch 4 in the NBA, probably the greatest in the last 20 years. Just sayin...

Trader Joe
08-17-2012, 12:49 PM
I think Roy and BRush meant this to be a DM exchange on Twitter.... :D

Brandon Rush @KCsFinest4

J.o.b to Dallas?
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
17m
Roy Hibbert @Hoya2aPacer

@KCsFinest4 I know right. I texted DC.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
10m
Brandon Rush @KCsFinest4

@Hoya2aPacer is it true tho?
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
10m
Roy Hibbert @Hoya2aPacer

@KCsFinest4 if it is. I'm happy it's not me tho.
Hide conversation
Reply Retweet Favorite

DC was one of the most vocal cracking on JOB too, and this should be lesson to everyone on why you just keep your mouth shut in situations like these. You never know when the person you are cracking on might work with you again.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
08-17-2012, 01:18 PM
Poor DC and Dahntay, they really got the bum end of the deal....

Kid Minneapolis
08-17-2012, 01:42 PM
I actually think JOB is better suited as an assistant.

On another note, I find the word "reappear" a funny way to describe his return, as if he's some magician or he had literally become invisible.

Sookie
08-17-2012, 01:55 PM
I feel bad for Dahntay and DC...and LMAO at that BRush and Roy conversation.

I do think he's got the possibility of being a good assistant coach. JOB's stubbornness isn't going to show it's ugly face as much when he's not in charge. As an assistant, he can show the head coach "the stats"..but the head coach makes the decision.. he can suggest a PG iso, but the head coach makes the decision. ETC..

That said, I still feel bad for Dahntay and DC. Even though he won't be in charge, they've still got to work with him. And it's obvious they didn't like it. (for good reason)

Ace E.Anderson
08-17-2012, 01:56 PM
I think Roy and BRush meant this to be a DM exchange on Twitter.... :D

Brandon Rush @KCsFinest4

J.o.b to Dallas?
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
17m
Roy Hibbert @Hoya2aPacer

@KCsFinest4 I know right. I texted DC.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
10m
Brandon Rush @KCsFinest4

@Hoya2aPacer is it true tho?
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
10m
Roy Hibbert @Hoya2aPacer

@KCsFinest4 if it is. I'm happy it's not me tho.
Hide conversation
Reply Retweet Favorite


Lol now THIS is funny.

Hicks
08-17-2012, 02:34 PM
Wow. I don't see how Rick and JOB would be able to coach on the same team. They have such different approaches.

They're both stat geeks, though.

Sandman21
08-17-2012, 03:00 PM
On another note, I find the word "reappear" a funny way to describe his return, as if he's some magician or he had literally become invisible.

Funny AND accurate! :D

mildlysane
08-17-2012, 03:40 PM
I actually think JOB is better suited as an assistant.

On another note, I find the word "reappear" a funny way to describe his return, as if he's some magician or he had literally become invisible.

For his next trick, perhaps he can be sawed in half....

Peck
08-17-2012, 04:23 PM
The Rush/Hibbert conversation just goes further to say that I have never in my life seen or heard of an NBA coach that was so openly dispised by his players. JOB has a long list of players who will line up to say bad things about him, I don't know of another single coach that is that way. I think that says a lot really because we all know most players and coach's will do the "right thing" and say the "right thing" about former players/coach's but when it comes to O'Brien there is just no end to the list of players who will say bad things about him.

MagicRat
08-17-2012, 05:05 PM
Raaaarrrrrrr!
http://home.comcast.net/%7Emagic_rat/jimodill.jpg

vapacersfan
08-17-2012, 06:38 PM
DC was one of the most vocal cracking on JOB too, and this should be lesson to everyone on why you just keep your mouth shut in situations like these. You never know when the person you are cracking on might work with you again.

No kidding. Not like people are always moving around (be it in the NBA or in the "real world")

Not to mention in todays world you never know who is reading what you wrote (especially if you meant to make it private and accidentally made it pubic)

Brad8888
08-17-2012, 11:08 PM
So, Dallas is looking to focus on their perimeter game while solidifying their goal to be a 9 seed in the West within 2 years after Rick moves on to coach the Lakers once they get fed up with Mike Brown?

BlueNGold
08-17-2012, 11:44 PM
Dahntay has to be livid.

BlueNGold
08-17-2012, 11:50 PM
Lol now THIS is funny.

Yes, it's very funny. I'm happy Rush is in GS. Not as happy as Jim being in Texas...but pretty happy.

graphic-er
08-18-2012, 12:27 AM
Guess we'll be seeing the Patented Troy Murphy Trailing 3pter in Dallas?

MagicRat
08-18-2012, 01:09 AM
Guess we'll be seeing the Patented Troy Murphy Trailing 3pter in Dallas?

http://home.comcast.net/%7Emagic_rat/jobgetssmall.jpg

kester99
08-18-2012, 02:25 AM
Rick, Rick, Rick! It's three minutes into the second period! Time to take Dirk out!

Rick: Jim, he's hitting everything he's putting up.

Yeah, but it's three minutes into the second period! Jeez, it's three minutes and 26 seconds now! Get him out! Here...look at my clipboard. See? Time to take him out!

Infinite MAN_force
08-18-2012, 12:04 PM
JOB seems like the classic example of a stat/detail oriented type of guy who will make an excellent assistant, but a terrible head coach. It is very important for the head coach to have a sense of the bigger picture.

McKeyFan
08-18-2012, 03:10 PM
I think Dahntay will do a lot better if Jim is not the main guy.

speakout4
08-18-2012, 06:46 PM
RealGM Wiretap
Basketball news gathered from around the net.

Mavericks Expected To Hire Jim O'Brien To Become Lead Assistant
Aug 18, 2012 11:44 AM EDT


Jim O'Brien is the frontrunner to join the Mavericks coaching staff following the departure of Terry Stotts to the Blazers.

Dallas was also considering Steve Clifford and Jay Triano, but both took jobs elsewhere this week.

O'Brien was fired by the Pacers during the 10-11 season.

Via Marc Stein/ESPN


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/223072/Mavericks_Expected_To_Hire_Jim_OBrien_To_Become_Le ad_Assistant#ixzz23wOlEf5c

They must like pacer castoffs

OlBlu
08-18-2012, 09:01 PM
This continues to speak of O'Brien's high currency with Bird. I don't think Carlisle would be considering OB as an assistant if Bird was telling him how terrible he is.

I believe you are right about that and I do not believe that Bird ever thought he was terrible. In fact, he did a great job of taking what Bird gave him and rebuilding on the fly. Much of the success we are having now is a direct result of JOB's good work.....:cool: ...

BlueNGold
08-18-2012, 09:12 PM
I believe you are right about that and I do not believe that Bird ever thought he was terrible. In fact, he did a great job of taking what Bird gave him and rebuilding on the fly. Much of the success we are having now is a direct result of JOB's good work.....:cool: ...

Yes. He did a great job building Roy Hibbert's confidence and developing Granger's defense. He also helped McRoberts become a great 3 point shooter....and showed the world why Troy Murphy should get 40 mpg. I still can't understand why LA doesn't agree.

But team chemistry is where he really helped us the most. I would not be surprised if he went down in Pacer history as the players favorite coach.....:cool:

cdash
08-18-2012, 10:43 PM
Some of you guys really need to bury the hatchet here. It's like the guy personally poisoned your dogs or something. He was a crappy coach for a few years that were going to be crappy anyway.

Doddage
08-19-2012, 12:13 AM
Much of the success we are having now is a direct result of JOB's good work.....:cool: ...
:50cent:

Heisenberg
08-19-2012, 01:25 AM
Some of you guys really need to bury the hatchet here. It's like the guy personally poisoned your dogs or something. He was a crappy coach for a few years that were going to be crappy anyway.
And he was only "crappy" because he didn't do the things that needed to be done to help the franchise long term. A long term he obviously wouldn't have been around for. JOB's teams won more games than they should have. That doesn't mean I like him, or think his style of basketball is at all enjoyable, but it's true.

MvPlumlee
08-19-2012, 04:41 AM
Can't help but feel sorry for Dallas.
First they couldn't get Deron or Nash, then they got Collison as their starting PG, then Orlando decided it was their turn to do the Lakers a favor and now they hire O'dumb.
Looks to me like they have their own Murphy on the team: Law of Murphy

Heisenberg
08-19-2012, 05:31 AM
Dallas has an owner who's willing to spend but puts a premium on doing it intelligently. Before Cuban Dallas was a sad sack, but not any longer. He's the best owner in professional sports as far as I'm concerned. There's absolutely no reason to feel bad for them. They struck out on the superstars. And they made outstanding moves to be a solid team while maintaining incredible flexibility. Good for them, sincerely. Cuban and the Mavs haven't lucked into a thing, no tanking, just spending cash and finally capitalizing on the potential of hteir market. All while sticking a middle finger up to Stern. Keep doing your thing Cuban, the NBA's better for it.

This is our "problem." Compare the dot com billionaire Cuban to the centralized shopping mall billionaire Simon bros. They were all new members of the billionaire boys club but one did it because he was a competitive SOB that needed an outlet, the others did it as a civic service. And I'm forever, FOREVER grateful for that. But I've gotten hungry. You can only put together upper tier teams that make a bunch of Conference Finals so many times before we get complacent. I like making ECFs a helluva lot more than I do getting the 13th pick, that's clear. But I like owners that say **** you we're winning a ring more. Ain't my money, I realize that. But I want one that approaches it that way. Thanks for saving professional basketball in Indiana Herb, but time's up. PD can give you, like, 3 stacks for the franchise. I don't know, I'm just frustrated.

BlueNGold
08-19-2012, 08:34 AM
And he was only "crappy" because he didn't do the things that needed to be done to help the franchise long term. A long term he obviously wouldn't have been around for. JOB's teams won more games than they should have. That doesn't mean I like him, or think his style of basketball is at all enjoyable, but it's true.

I think this concept is more legend than truth (that he won more games than he should have). In any event, it's far from proven. I actually don't believe it's true because within the same season a different style was far more effective in terms of winning games.

PaceBalls
08-19-2012, 11:58 AM
There has always been this assumption that the JOB teams won more games than they should have. I think that's hogwash.

Sandman21
08-19-2012, 12:41 PM
Some of you guys really need to bury the hatchet here. It's like the guy personally poisoned your dogs or something. He was a crappy coach for a few years that were going to be crappy anyway.

No. I tried to hospitable to him, and in fact I was probably one of the last to get on the fire Jim O'Brien bandwagon, but that jerk quit on his team 6 weeks before he was fired. Watch how we started the season up until JOB decided to have Posey take over the Troy Murphy role. JOB QUIT on our team.

Unforgivable.

OlBlu
08-19-2012, 12:56 PM
There has always been this assumption that the JOB teams won more games than they should have. I think that's hogwash.


If that were the case, he would never have gotten another coaching job. He had a good reputation before he came here. He did a great job given the circumstances. There was no coach on earth that was going to push that group into the playoffs or even close to .500. Murphy, Dunleavy, Tinsley, McRoberts and other had to be sent packing. JOB brought discipline to an out of control team that sorely needed it. He did that and kept a really bad team from sinking to ten or less wins. The Pacers owe much of their current success to JOB even if they won't admit it.....:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-19-2012, 12:58 PM
No. I tried to hospitable to him, and in fact I was probably one of the last to get on the fire Jim O'Brien bandwagon, but that jerk quit on his team 6 weeks before he was fired. Watch how we started the season up until JOB decided to have Posey take over the Troy Murphy role. JOB QUIT on our team.

Unforgivable.


He didn't quit on that team, that team quit on him....... JOB did a good job getting the Pacers through an almost complete rebuild. When he left, only three players remained from his first year.....:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-19-2012, 01:01 PM
I think this concept is more legend than truth (that he won more games than he should have). In any event, it's far from proven. I actually don't believe it's true because within the same season a different style was far more effective in terms of winning games.

You only had that team that started winning some games for a few months. JOB had to try and win with Murphy, McRoberts, Tinsley and other stiffs. I think if JOB had stayed, that team would have had the same number of wins as they wound up with Vogel. That said, the team was ready to start winning and in the NBA and the NFL, the rebuilding coach has to go and be replaced by a new voice. I am not sold on Vogel and if JOB had stayed, I think we would have made a better hire. The man who should be coaching the Pacers is sitting on the bench right now.....:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-19-2012, 01:05 PM
And he was only "crappy" because he didn't do the things that needed to be done to help the franchise long term. A long term he obviously wouldn't have been around for. JOB's teams won more games than they should have. That doesn't mean I like him, or think his style of basketball is at all enjoyable, but it's true.

I think you have it exactly right. Everyone in the NBA knew JOB did a great job in Indy and everyone knew he would be right back as an assistant or a head coach. Everyone outside of Indianapolis, that is. I heard lots of claims that he would never coach again but only Pacer fans who had a "homer" view of their Pacers believed that. JOB established discipline to a team that Carlisle lost control of at the end of his tenure. That was the reason for his "my way or the highway" approach and I assure you that he had Bird's blessing in that. I am also sure that he got Bird's recommendation for a new job.......:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-19-2012, 01:09 PM
Yes. He did a great job building Roy Hibbert's confidence and developing Granger's defense. He also helped McRoberts become a great 3 point shooter....and showed the world why Troy Murphy should get 40 mpg. I still can't understand why LA doesn't agree.

But team chemistry is where he really helped us the most. I would not be surprised if he went down in Pacer history as the players favorite coach.....:cool:

Hey!!! :cool: ... McBrick was a totally lost cause. It wasn't his job to build Hibbert's confidence, it was job to make him a basketball player. He did that. Granger has never played defense for anyone including a highly regarded Coach K. No one is going to be able to do that. He was a disiplinarian and those kind do not get love from the players. But those players needed that because they had walked all over Carlisle.... Give JOB this current team and a mandate to win and not rebuild and he would do fine and he would have a different approach. Bird always supported JOB and I am sure he still does....:cool: ...

cdash
08-19-2012, 05:32 PM
No. I tried to hospitable to him, and in fact I was probably one of the last to get on the fire Jim O'Brien bandwagon, but that jerk quit on his team 6 weeks before he was fired. Watch how we started the season up until JOB decided to have Posey take over the Troy Murphy role. JOB QUIT on our team.

Unforgivable.

Players quit on their teams all the team. Management quits on their teams of the time (tanking). It happens. I'm not convinced JOB did it, but I don't care either way. It's the past and I don't care.

Sandman21
08-19-2012, 05:40 PM
He sat Josh down against the Bulls in the fourth quarter when McBob had the hot hand just before the referees mercifully ended the JoB reign of tyranny 3 minutes early and cost us that game (not to mention the many other games that season he cost us, SA at home for example). He didn't think that team could make the playoffs. I said it on here a couple weeks before he was canned that he had quit on them

MnvrChvy
08-19-2012, 05:51 PM
I disliked JOB especially by the middle of that 3rd year, but I don't think he'd be a bad assistant coach at all. In fact, I didn't think he was a bad coach so much as I thought he was a bad coach for us. He got in a rut here (as evidenced by the strict subbing pattern) and he certainly lost his players. I wouldn't have ever been quite so livid about it, if he hadn't been given that maddening extension. But overall I think he is a sound coach that could have a positive impact at the assistant level. I think this will turn out to be a good pickup for the Mavs.

I do feel bad for DC and DJ though. I really like those two guys, and this will really suck for them especially DC. Jones I think has the demeanor and experience to put the past behind him and move forward, but I'm afraid Collison will have a hard time with it.

BlueNGold
08-19-2012, 09:36 PM
Hey!!! :cool: ... McBrick was a totally lost cause. It wasn't his job to build Hibbert's confidence, it was job to make him a basketball player. He did that. Granger has never played defense for anyone including a highly regarded Coach K. No one is going to be able to do that. He was a disiplinarian and those kind do not get love from the players. But those players needed that because they had walked all over Carlisle.... Give JOB this current team and a mandate to win and not rebuild and he would do fine and he would have a different approach. Bird always supported JOB and I am sure he still does....:cool: ...

Jim was needed for a year...maybe two. But not three. Jim was indeed needed to lay down the law. But the Pacers proceeded to trade all the problem children and by year #3 we had choir boys getting beaten down by the warden. He should never have started year #3.

...and no, Jim wouldn't win with this team. Roy wouldn't play as well for him...and Roy is the best player on the team. Also, last year Granger actually did start playing a little defense again for the first time in years....but he wouldn't have under Jim. Under Jim, it was all about the three and Granger was fine with that. Now more is being asked of the players. They are now expected to play a complete game instead of a flawed gimmick.

McKeyFan
08-19-2012, 09:54 PM
You guys say OB won more games than he should, but as soon as he got canned, Vogel turned the team around. WITH THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS.

You can counter that the team gave up on OB and that's why Vogel did so well. But Vogel did really well again the following year.

Also, Vogel didn't just lead the same system and players with new attitudes. He changed all the stupid stuff OB was doing that all of us were complaining about. He emphasized defense and tough play. He cut out the silly bazillions of substitutions. He spoke positively of his players in public instead of negatively. He predicted wins rather than a losing season. He immediately spoke publicly about the need to take high percentage shots. He immediately benched Posey.

You guys spin it however you want. The truth is completely obvious.

Sandman21
08-19-2012, 10:18 PM
You guys say OB won more games than he should, but as soon as he got canned, Vogel turned the team around. WITH THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS.

You can counter that the team gave up on OB and that's why Vogel did so well. But Vogel did really well again the following year.

Also, Vogel didn't just lead the same system and players with new attitudes. He changed all the stupid stuff OB was doing that all of us were complaining about. He emphasized defense and tough play. He cut out the silly bazillions of substitutions. He spoke positively of his players in public instead of negatively. He predicted wins rather than a losing season. He immediately spoke publicly about the need to take high percentage shots. He immediately benched Posey.

You guys spin it however you want. The truth is completely obvious.

You forgot that he ended the "Jack a 3" offensive scheme, we suddenly stopped giving games away with the 4th quarter, Slick wasn't openly questioning defensive man assignments (as he was when JOB the quitter put Posey on Blake Griffin, remember what I said about Jim quitting on his team?) on air, fans stopped booing the head coach of the team, and he started actually playing Paul, not to mention dressing BOTH Tyler and Josh (remember when Bird had to order JOB to play Tyler, so he responded not by doing the logical thing and benching the washed up scrub "stretch 4" who was shooting an ridiculous 88% from behind the arc, but by giving Posey MORE minutes and not dressing Josh period?:banghead: ), but I would have thanked this post 1000 times just because for "He immediately benched Posey (and cut back TJ's minutes)."

Let's face it, Jim the Quitter had a big role in Brandon Rush's struggles here (at least the part not self inflicted by B-Rush), he ALMOST ruined Roy's career, and god knows what would have happened to Paul had he not been canned. On the flip side, he extended James Posey's playing career a whole half season. I will give him some credit though, only he could have figured out a way to make another team want to trade for El Matador Troy.

ChicagoJ
08-19-2012, 11:01 PM
There has always been this assumption that the JOB teams won more games than they should have. I think that's hogwash.

I don't know. They had some 26-28 win- rosters over those couple of years that I refused to watch. He got them to the 30's somehow. Not the way I would have wanted to see it, relying on crappy veterans and stunting the growth of the younger guys. But he somehow got those awful rosters into the 30's. He gets some credit. Not much, but some.

Heisenberg
08-20-2012, 01:04 AM
And it still rubs me the wrong way when players openly deride JOB in the media. I understand the complaints, trust me, I just don't like the public airing of grievances. It's just unprofessional, it's been a year and a half, move on. And don't take any posts I've made in this thread of me being pro-JOB, I danced a jig when Larry finally fired him, I just don't like the crap slinging that so many players have taken part in. Think if JOB did multiple radio interviews bashing players he coached, this board would EXPLODE.

But he hasn't said a peep. I literally haven't seen one single word quoted from him since he got fired. I give him credit for that.

McKeyFan
08-20-2012, 07:26 AM
And it still rubs me the wrong way when players openly deride JOB in the media. I understand the complaints, trust me, I just don't like the public airing of grievances. It's just unprofessional, it's been a year and a half, move on. And don't take any posts I've made in this thread of me being pro-JOB, I danced a jig when Larry finally fired him, I just don't like the crap slinging that so many players have taken part in. Think if JOB did multiple radio interviews bashing players he coached, this board would EXPLODE.

But he hasn't said a peep. I literally haven't seen one single word quoted from him since he got fired. I give him credit for that.
I'll agree with you that JOB gets points for saying nothing post firing. But two things to note:

- He said a bunch of stuff WHILE THE COACH that somewhat neutralizes your "credit"

- Bird deserves most of the blame for those negative comments by players. It's like making people walk on hot coals and asking them not to say "ouch."

Unclebuck
08-20-2012, 08:57 AM
I refuse to re-"litigate" the Jim O'Brien years. But I will say that my silence on this issue doesn't mean I've seen the light and now agree with you all. Just that I said all I needed to say on the topic over the years and I still feel the same way. If for some reason I change my mind on things, I will be sure to post.

Major Cold
08-20-2012, 09:05 AM
JOB's gimmicky offense won a few games. Enough games to get us over the 30 game hump. I can't say that is a good thing. Or that it is a bad thing.
I will say that his heavily defensive rotations probably helped Hibbert in getting smarter defensively. And that is about it on that. It did not help Granger, D.Jones, or DC.

vnzla81
08-20-2012, 10:21 AM
JOB's gimmicky offense won a few games. Enough games to get us over the 30 game hump. I can't say that is a good thing. Or that it is a bad thing.
I will say that his heavily defensive rotations probably helped Hibbert in getting smarter defensively. And that is about it on that. It did not help Granger, D.Jones, or DC.

It helped Danny making him an All Star and the gimmick always worked at the end of the year when other teams but the Pacers didn't care about winning.

Major Cold
08-20-2012, 11:00 AM
It helped Danny making him an All Star and the gimmick always worked at the end of the year when other teams but the Pacers didn't care about winning.
I was talking about defensive rotations. And the reward I was talking about was making us a better team. And not making individual players have accolades.

sam kaiserblade
08-20-2012, 11:37 AM
I enjoyed the year when Jarrett Jack was here and the Pacers were competitive in each game. O'brien's final two years are another story BUT I am glad the Pacers won 30 plus games a year while they rebuilt. No way would I follow the team if they lost like the Bobcats have. The NBA needs to have relegation like Soccer. I wish the 2 worse teams in the league would get relegated to a lesser league each year to keep them from tanking.

Roaming Gnome
08-20-2012, 11:47 AM
Ahhh.... O'Brien discussion. Summer is just dragging right along. :sigh:

Naptown_Seth
08-20-2012, 08:36 PM
I actually think JOB is better suited as an assistant.

On another note, I find the word "reappear" a funny way to describe his return, as if he's some magician or he had literally become invisible.
I took it more like a horror movie monster/villain.

Poor DC, DJones and most of all, WTF does Bird have against Carlisle that he recommends JOB to him? (which you would have to assumed...)

Freaking Rick just keeps getting crap deals.

BlueNGold
08-20-2012, 10:28 PM
I refuse to re-"litigate" the Jim O'Brien years. But I will say that my silence on this issue doesn't mean I've seen the light and now agree with you all. Just that I said all I needed to say on the topic over the years and I still feel the same way. If for some reason I change my mind on things, I will be sure to post.

There is no need to re-litigate. The case has been decided.

We are just dancing on the grave at this point...

Sookie
08-20-2012, 11:32 PM
And it still rubs me the wrong way when players openly deride JOB in the media. I understand the complaints, trust me, I just don't like the public airing of grievances. It's just unprofessional, it's been a year and a half, move on. And don't take any posts I've made in this thread of me being pro-JOB, I danced a jig when Larry finally fired him, I just don't like the crap slinging that so many players have taken part in. Think if JOB did multiple radio interviews bashing players he coached, this board would EXPLODE.

But he hasn't said a peep. I literally haven't seen one single word quoted from him since he got fired. I give him credit for that.

I think it really says what type of coach he is, that the players have done this.

For the most part, unless they are superstars, players don't publicly say anything about a coach.
For the most part, the Pacers players that dealt with him were 3/4 year college players, who were both intelligent and professional.

And yet I've seen Roy, Brandon, DC, PG, Tyler (FREAKING TYLER), Danny, Dun, and I'm pretty sure Josh and TJ all "throw mud"

At some point, you just have to figure it was "that bad."

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 08:54 AM
I think it really says what type of coach he is, that the players have done this.

For the most part, unless they are superstars, players don't publicly say anything about a coach.
For the most part, the Pacers players that dealt with him were 3/4 year college players, who were both intelligent and professional.

And yet I've seen Roy, Brandon, DC, PG, Tyler (FREAKING TYLER), Danny, Dun, and I'm pretty sure Josh and TJ all "throw mud"

At some point, you just have to figure it was "that bad."


I don't agree with that at all. Remember all the negative comments once Carlisle left and from former Pacer players who were traded. Players critisize their former coach all the time. This is the NBA. It happened after Larry Brown left, happened after Isiah left. Only time I don't remember it happening here is when Bird left, but the team was changed so much that summer and they did just get to the NBA Finals.

what is unusual is for a player to be critical of their current coach. But former coach - it is open sesason

Was it worse with JOB, maybe, but I don't see it that much worse. Seemed pretty typical to me

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 08:58 AM
You guys say OB won more games than he should, but as soon as he got canned, Vogel turned the team around. WITH THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS.

You can counter that the team gave up on OB and that's why Vogel did so well. But Vogel did really well again the following year.



They were 20-18 with an easier schedule the rest of the way. And yes the players gave up on O'Brien. So 20-18 isn't that big of a deal.

I was not a believer in Vogel at all until the 2011 playoff series against the Bulls, that is what changed my mind about him. The February, March and April regular season was not impressive to me really.

ChicagoJ
08-21-2012, 09:18 AM
You knew it was bad during the Season We Do Not Discuss when even the Mayor, Fred Hoiberg, was bashing Larry Brown after Brown quit. The lifecycle of an NBA coach is short. This is nothing new.

Major Cold
08-21-2012, 09:21 AM
You guys say OB won more games than he should, but as soon as he got canned, Vogel turned the team around. WITH THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS.

You can counter that the team gave up on OB and that's why Vogel did so well. But Vogel did really well again the following year.

Also, Vogel didn't just lead the same system and players with new attitudes. He changed all the stupid stuff OB was doing that all of us were complaining about. He emphasized defense and tough play. He cut out the silly bazillions of substitutions. He spoke positively of his players in public instead of negatively. He predicted wins rather than a losing season. He immediately spoke publicly about the need to take high percentage shots. He immediately benched Posey.

You guys spin it however you want. The truth is completely obvious.

His 3rd year the expectations were higher. We were to make the playoffs and that was voiced from Bird. And it wasn't "I hope to one day be in the playoff". It was "I expect us to be in the playoffs". We got DC and Paul George. Hibbert was expected to step up. Tyler was expected to play for the entire season.

So please do not assume we had the same team in all three years with JOB. PG's first year was JOB's best, Jack's only year was the second, and Watson was the worst (granted I blame JOB for not getting TJ acclimated better).

Vogel didn't coach a rag tag bunch. They were suppose to get there in the first place. Vogel just erased the debt that the West Coast trip caused.

vnzla81
08-21-2012, 09:30 AM
I knew UB was still in love with JOB I knew it.

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 09:41 AM
His 3rd year the expectations were higher. We were to make the playoffs and that was voiced from Bird. And it wasn't "I hope to one day be in the playoff". It was "I expect us to be in the playoffs". We got DC and Paul George. Hibbert was expected to step up. Tyler was expected to play for the entire season.

So please do not assume we had the same team in all three years with JOB. PG's first year was JOB's best, Jack's only year was the second, and Watson was the worst (granted I blame JOB for not getting TJ acclimated better).

Vogel didn't coach a rag tag bunch. They were suppose to get there in the first place. Vogel just erased the debt that the West Coast trip caused.

I think you mean his 4th year.

Major Cold
08-21-2012, 09:59 AM
I think you mean his 4th year.
Yeah his 4th year. Honestly the 3rd and 4th kinda ran together. I supported him in the 3rd year, but that support was waning. I did not want him back in the 4th year, but there was not a clear guy (Shaw maybe) out there. But the January of 2010 was the biggest disappointment as a Pacer fan.

Since86
08-21-2012, 12:16 PM
Major, Jim said right before he was fired that the Pacers couldn't make the playoffs. He was then let go, Vogel took over, and as we all know, made the playoffs. So yes, it was literally the exact same roster, because it was only about a month and a half between Jim putting his foot in his mouth and the Pacers shoving it in further for him.

Major Cold
08-21-2012, 12:26 PM
Major, Jim said right before he was fired that the Pacers couldn't make the playoffs. He was then let go, Vogel took over, and as we all know, made the playoffs. So yes, it was literally the exact same roster, because it was only about a month and a half between Jim putting his foot in his mouth and the Pacers shoving it further for him.
Regardless what Jim said, the expectation was for them to make the playoffs. The team was better than previous years, or in a better climate to make the playoffs. I understand that Vogel had the same roster. I am not debating that. What I am saying is that Vogel did not exceed preseason expediencies, until the Bulls series.

Jim failed to take a better roster to the playoffs. When he (and SVG) said they were not good enough, or they were as equally as bad as previous years.

No the 10-11 Pacers were better than the 09-10, 08-09, and the 07-08. And to say that those teams should have made the playoffs is farce. They were horrible grouped together with no chemistry (I blame JOB for this). And if it weren't for the gimmicks of JOB they would have been in the top 6 pick area. There was no sustainable model to JOB's winning. It was a flash in the pan. And I do not fault him. He was hired to win, not to lose.

Dr. Awesome
08-21-2012, 12:38 PM
And it still rubs me the wrong way when players openly deride JOB in the media. I understand the complaints, trust me, I just don't like the public airing of grievances. It's just unprofessional, it's been a year and a half, move on. And don't take any posts I've made in this thread of me being pro-JOB, I danced a jig when Larry finally fired him, I just don't like the crap slinging that so many players have taken part in. Think if JOB did multiple radio interviews bashing players he coached, this board would EXPLODE.

But he hasn't said a peep. I literally haven't seen one single word quoted from him since he got fired. I give him credit for that.
Usually I would be in the same boat as you.

However, O'Brien was such a prick about them in the media, that I think he deserves every last word spoken about him.

Peck
08-21-2012, 12:52 PM
They were 20-18 with an easier schedule the rest of the way. And yes the players gave up on O'Brien. So 20-18 isn't that big of a deal.

I was not a believer in Vogel at all until the 2011 playoff series against the Bulls, that is what changed my mind about him. The February, March and April regular season was not impressive to me really.

The one thing you guys on the "easier schedule" argument will never answer me is how then did we beat the Hawks & the Bucks? You do realize that when O'Brien was our coach we had lost several games in a row to both teams and in fact would lose to the Hawks quit frequently by double digits. Yet since Vogel has taken over we have winning records vs. both of them.

No I'm sorry but we were the weaker schedule prior to O'Brien being fired. In other words when teams looked at the calendar saw our names on it and marked it off as an easy game.

When O'Brien was fired he was 10 games below .500 in fact his tenure in Indiana was below .500% Vogel was not the beneficiary of any type of magic trick or schedule fluke, he changed the entire structure of the team.

From day one he said Danny Granger was going to take better shots, he said we were going to play a smash mouth style of game. In other words were going to take everything that Jim O'Brien did as a coach and throw it out the window and guess what, it worked.

Instead of Roy Hibbert playing 20 min a game in the high post he started running a double low post offense. Instead of James Posey getting the most min. of any of our power forwards he deactivated him & played him one time the rest of the year. Instead of a passing motion offense he put the ball back in our point guards hands & Darren Collison started to play much better.

Why did the players give up on Jim O'Brien? Many coach's are hated by their players as you have said, but they don't as a group collectively give up very often so why now? The answer is simple and not complex at all. You can get by with being a disciplinarian and even somewhat of miserable person if you are a winner, but when your system doesn't win & you can't or won't adapt to any other system then the players you have are going to lose faith in you.

I'll accept a lot of stuff about O’Brien’s time here but I won't EVER accept people saying the team only played better because of an easier schedule and even though you also threw in the caveat that the team had given up on O'Brien I won't accept that either because it implies that the team would have had a winning record the rest of the season under Jim & that was just never going to happen.

BillS
08-21-2012, 01:18 PM
Why did the players give up on Jim O'Brien? Many coach's are hated by their players as you have said, but they don't as a group collectively give up very often so why now?

You were OK until here. Teams give up on coaches all the time. Heck, that's one of the reasons for Bird's famous Three Year Limit - in fact, had he FOLLOWED that limit with JOB (though I understand why it made more sense given the upcoming dynamics of the team to try to get just one more season out of him before flipping the switch) we probably wouldn't be having quite this vehement and argument about him even this long after he was gone.

"'Tis the ghost! The ghost! The horrible macabre spectre of Jim O'Brien that haunts these halls..."

Sandman21
08-21-2012, 01:19 PM
Instead of James Posey getting the most min. of any of our power forwards he deactivated him & played him one time the rest of the year.
Not entirely accurate. Posey played 8 games under Vogel. However he only saw 10+ minutes in four of those eight. MUCH better than what we saw earlier that year.

Btw, Posey totaled 17 points and 18 rebounds in those 8 games.

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 01:26 PM
The one thing you guys on the "easier schedule" argument will never answer me is how then did we beat the Hawks & the Bucks? You do realize that when O'Brien was our coach we had lost several games in a row to both teams and in fact would lose to the Hawks quit frequently by double digits. Yet since Vogel has taken over we have winning records vs. both of them.




I don't see what that has to do with stating a fact that the schedule by record of our opponents was easier from February on than it had been from November through January. I mean that isn't the whole story, but it should be mentioned because it is a fact.



No I'm sorry but we were the weaker schedule prior to O'Brien being fired. In other words when teams looked at the calendar saw our names on it and marked it off as an easy game.

That really doesn't make much sense. So are you saying that the league wide impression of the pacers changed after Jim was fired. And that impression even made it down to the players. I'm not buying that. Record of opponents before vs record of opponents after the firing was quite a difference.



When O'Brien was fired he was 10 games below .500 in fact his tenure in Indiana was below .500% Vogel was not the beneficiary of any type of magic trick or schedule fluke, he changed the entire structure of the team.

That shows how Jim had lost the team completely as they were losing games. I think a 4-13 record in Jim's last 17 games proves that.


From day one he said Danny Granger was going to take better shots, he said we were going to play a smash mouth style of game. In other words were going to take everything that Jim O'Brien did as a coach and throw it out the window and guess what, it worked.

Yes he did say that and it worked OK. I mean 20-18 with an easier schedule and with the natural honeymoon period after an unpopular coach is fired, I mean 20-18 is OK.


Instead of Roy Hibbert playing 20 min a game in the high post he started running a double low post offense. Instead of James Posey getting the most min. of any of our power forwards he deactivated him & played him one time the rest of the year. Instead of a passing motion offense he put the ball back in our point guards hands & Darren Collison started to play much better.


I grant you all that, and I never argued against any of those things.



Why did the players give up on Jim O'Brien? Many coach's are hated by their players as you have said, but they don't as a group collectively give up very often so why now? The answer is simple and not complex at all. You can get by with being a disciplinarian and even somewhat of miserable person if you are a winner, but when your system doesn't win & you can't or won't adapt to any other system then the players you have are going to lose faith in you.

I lot of teams to varying degrees give up on their coach, that is nothing new. As you will recall after Jim's 3rd season I posted that he should not be brought back for a 4th.


I'll accept a lot of stuff about O’Brien’s time here but I won't EVER accept people saying the team only played better because of an easier schedule and even though you also threw in the caveat that the team had given up on O'Brien I won't accept that either because it implies that the team would have had a winning record the rest of the season under Jim & that was just never going to happen.

The schedule was a factor, that is all I ever said. I know I never said the only factor - not even close.

What would they have done the rest of that season? who knows, but if the relationship in that 4th season had been as good (or as bad) as it was towards the end of the 1st or 2nd season - I think 20-18 give or take a few games was likely very reasonable. The nfact is though the relationship had gotten really bad so a change was needed and I am glad it was made , although it should have been made prior to that season.

just an aside - I could if I wanted go back to Jim's last few weeks and find post after post of many on here saying that Jim had so ruined the team and the players that they will never recover - many were ruined for life - or so many suggested in this forum. Well obviously that didn't turn out to be true at all. Even Roy seemed to have recovered - shocking

vnzla81
08-21-2012, 01:31 PM
I'm pretty sure the Clown had some "easy" schedules in his stay here and he still didn't make it to the playoffs..... Ever...

Sandman21
08-21-2012, 01:39 PM
Yes he did say that and it worked OK. I mean 20-18 with an easier schedule and with the natural honeymoon period after an unpopular coach is fired, I mean 20-18 is OK.

Its also probably about 12 more games than Jim would have won (for example, I don't think we win against Cleveland in Vogel's second game if JOB was still coaching (CLEVELAND! IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT RIDICULOUS LOSING STREAK!), we wouldn't have beaten Minnesota at home when Dahntay heated up and couldn't miss in the 4th quarter, Charlotte and Detroit at home (both 1 point wins), probably wouldn't have won those. The home and home series with the Knicks after the near meltdown during the Texas trip, definitely wouldn't have won those what with Jim thinking Posey could guard Amare. The OT win against Chicago? Nope. And on and on.

McKeyFan
08-21-2012, 01:43 PM
I think 20-18 give or take a few games was likely very reasonable.

You're saying had JOB stayed, it is reasonable to say we would have gone 20-18? Is that what I'm hearing?

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 01:44 PM
Its also probably about 12 more games than Jim would have won (for example, I don't think we win against Cleveland in Vogel's second game if JOB was still coaching (CLEVELAND! IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT RIDICULOUS LOSING STREAK!), we wouldn't have beaten Minnesota at home when Dahntay heated up and couldn't miss in the 4th quarter, Charlotte and Detroit at home (both 1 point wins), probably wouldn't have won those. The home and home series with the Knicks after the near meltdown during the Texas trip, definitely wouldn't have won those what with Jim thinking Posey could guard Amare. The OT win against Chicago? Nope. And on and on.


so they would have been 8-30. actually maybe so as he had lost the team.

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 01:47 PM
You're saying had JOB stayed, it is reasonable to say we would have gone 20-18? Is that what I'm hearing?

No,(you really took that out of context) I said if the player - coach relationship had been the same as it was in Jim's first and second season, then I think yes 20-18 give or take a few games, would be reasonable. I mean maybe they woulkd have been two games less 18-20 - but about the same. I don't know why but they usually played well to end the seasons under Jim. They typically started OK and finished OK.


Pacers records to end seasons
'08 - 12-7
'09 - 8-4
'10 - 12-7
'11 - 10-13 - Vogel
'12 - 12-3 - Vogel

Sandman21
08-21-2012, 01:47 PM
so they would have been 8-30. actually maybe so as he had lost the team.

Considering he had quit on them first..... ;)

vnzla81
08-21-2012, 01:48 PM
You're saying had JOB stayed, it is reasonable to say we would have gone 20-18? Is that what I'm hearing?

I think he is saying ECF ;)

Since86
08-21-2012, 02:03 PM
No, I said if the player - coach relationship had been the same as it was in Jim's first and second season, then I think yes 20-18 give or take a few games, would be reasonable. I mean maybe they woulkd have been two games less 18-20 - but about the same. I don't know why but they usually played well to end the seasons under Jim. They typically started OK and finished OK.


Pacers records to end seasons
'08 - 12-7
'09 - 8-4
'10 - 12-7
'11 - 10-13

Why are you comparing a record of 38 total games with records of 12 total games? Expand on those records to make them closer game wise, and I bet you'll start seeing the differences.

Major Cold
08-21-2012, 02:06 PM
When opposing teams go into the next game, they look at trends. Is the team hot? Is a player hot that they are riding? How can we make them uncomfortable in what they are doing well?

After Vogel took over, they were energized and on the go. When teams adjusted and scouted, the team lost a series of games in a row (I think 6). Many flipped out there, like it was doomsday. Vogel and team made adjustments. And going into the Bulls series he made HUGE adjustments.

At one time the Bucks last year might have been considered a tough game.

Jan 20 they beat the Knicks at the garden by 14
Jan 22 they take their talents to South Beach and win 9 (Holding the Heat to 82 points)
Jan 23 they get beat by home cause Dunleavy throws the ball away and misses a three, forcing them to foul
Jan 25 they go to Houston and win by 5
Jan 27 they get beat by 7 to the Bulls
next night they beat the Lakers by 11 at home
Jan 30 they beat the Pistons
Feb 1 they beat the Heat....again


Feb 3 they played the Pistons. Now do you think the Pistons are thinking, "hey its the Bucks..we should win this". No. Because on fans think wins and loses are givens. The Bucks were the 9th best team in the East by record. Just like we were for 2 years. Even at our worst teams didn't just chalk it up as a win, we got hot.

The only difference is we have a system that is sustainable with the players we currently have.

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 02:08 PM
Why are you comparing a record of 38 total games with records of 12 total games? Expand on those records to make them closer game wise, and I bet you'll start seeing the differences.

I am well aware of the difference. Jim's teams were horrible in the middle part of the seasons.

No, my point is not to compare 20-18 vs Jim's years. but to point out for whatever reason Jim always ended each season strong. So if the player - coach relationsship still would have been as it was in previous seasons I don't think a 20-18 wou;ld have been unreasonable. Or maybe just a good March and April then.

Major Cold
08-21-2012, 02:11 PM
I am well aware of the difference

No, my point is not to compare 20-18 vs Jim's years. but to point out for whatever reason Jim always ended each season strong. So if the player - coach relationsship still would have been as it was in previous seasons I don't think a 20-18 wou;ld have been unreasonable. Or maybe just a good March and April then.

Yeah we always ended strong enough not to get Eric Gordon and not good enough to get playoff experience. What is the W-L under JOB against teams over .500 not resting for the playoffs?

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 02:17 PM
Why are you comparing a record of 38 total games with records of 12 total games? Expand on those records to make them closer game wise, and I bet you'll start seeing the differences.

Actually you make an excellent point, so I re-ran the numbers.

http://www.pacersuniverse.com/season_by_season/2008_season_game_log.htm
'08 - 17-21
'09 - 19-19
'10 - 17-21




Keep in mind the pacers made the playoffs with 37 wins - that is a low win total.

Since86
08-21-2012, 02:49 PM
I counted 17-21 for the last 38 games in '10.

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 02:55 PM
I counted 17-21 for the last 38 games in '10.

You are correct. I think I counted '09 twice. I hate when they don't coinsider the year in which the season ends as the number to use for the season. I always count the 2009-2010 as the 2010 season - I think that was why I counted the same season twice.

But OK, I'll go back and change my prior post. Still not that far off. 17-21 is still only 3 games from 20-18

Sookie
08-21-2012, 03:47 PM
I don't agree with that at all. Remember all the negative comments once Carlisle left and from former Pacer players who were traded. Players critisize their former coach all the time. This is the NBA. It happened after Larry Brown left, happened after Isiah left. Only time I don't remember it happening here is when Bird left, but the team was changed so much that summer and they did just get to the NBA Finals.

what is unusual is for a player to be critical of their current coach. But former coach - it is open sesason

Was it worse with JOB, maybe, but I don't see it that much worse. Seemed pretty typical to me

That may be something you've seen. But I've never seen it that bad. Maybe part of it was the youth, and forgetting they could have to work with him again/forgetting professionalism. I'll give you that. But for the most part, that team was made up of intelligent professional young guys. And I honestly think it pretty well shows how bad of a coach he is..and the level of disdain shows how he likely treated the guys too..

I mean Tyler doesn't talk..and he had a lot to say about Jimmy.

flox
08-21-2012, 06:24 PM
I really wanted to stay out of this topic, but then you posted. Sorry Peck.


The one thing you guys on the "easier schedule" argument will never answer me is how then did we beat the Hawks & the Bucks?

I'm sorry, but this is just inane. You do realize that the one game we won that season against the Hawks was because Josh Smith (who almost always shoots over 500 against us) was out right? The bucks games were we in were always 50/50 games.


I'll accept a lot of stuff about O’Brien’s time here but I won't EVER accept people saying the team only played better because of an easier schedule and even though you also threw in the caveat that the team had given up on O'Brien I won't accept that either because it implies that the team would have had a winning record the rest of the season under Jim & that was just never going to happen.

You can believe what you want, but the numbers don't lie.



Anyway, I am super happy that Jim got hired by Mavs. If any of our players suck this year, we can always threaten to trade them to Mavericks. That should light a fire under them.

Also, I hope this teaches the players that whatever you do to quit on coaches or whatever, it might bite you later. So you shouldn't do that.

vnzla81
08-21-2012, 06:36 PM
Many here forget that the Pacers went into a winning streak and were able to make it to the playoffs after firing the clown because Vogel let Tyler play, Tyler was a huge part at the end of the season destroying teams, I don't think that would have happen with Posey in his place.

Peck
08-21-2012, 06:43 PM
I really wanted to stay out of this topic, but then you posted. Sorry Peck.



I'm sorry, but this is just inane. You do realize that the one game we won that season against the Hawks was because Josh Smith (who almost always shoots over 500 against us) was out right? The bucks games were we in were always 50/50 games.


You can believe what you want, but the numbers don't lie.



Anyway, I am super happy that Jim got hired by Mavs. If any of our players suck this year, we can always threaten to trade them to Mavericks. That should light a fire under them.

Also, I hope this teaches the players that whatever you do to quit on coaches or whatever, it might bite you later. So you shouldn't do that.

Yes that's it, it was Josh Smith being out because Al Horford, Joe Johnson & Kirk Hinrich never gave us any trouble. It had nothing to do with the fact that James Posey did not play and that Tyler & Josh combined for 21 points & 12 rebounds while actually playing interior defense. It had nothing to do with our team only shooting 13 three point attempts instead of the usual 20+ it had nothing to do with us as a team outrebounding the Hawks 49 to 36.

No it was all because Josh Smith didn't play.

MagicRat
08-21-2012, 08:01 PM
Curious tabbed browsing phenomenon...........
http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/jobmavs.jpg

Unclebuck
08-21-2012, 09:32 PM
Many here forget that the Pacers went into a winning streak and were able to make it to the playoffs after firing the clown because Vogel let Tyler play, Tyler was a huge part at the end of the season destroying teams, I don't think that would have happen with Posey in his place.

Actually Tyler had been starting under Jim and Frank moved him to the bench.

Also you do realize that the Pacers longest winning streak was 4 games and that was the first 4 frank coached against easy schedule

BlueNGold
08-21-2012, 09:59 PM
I would say it was 5 games. The famous 5 game winning streak when Jim didn't have Troy and was forced to play "the wrong way". We probably had a dozen 10 page threads during that stretch (pardon the pun...).