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brownjake43
08-16-2012, 01:06 PM
Do you guys expect Augustin to play starter minutes for the Pacers? I hope he does. He has improved his passing ability and if he understands his role on the Pacers well he could develop into a very good Point Guard. I do not care who starts the games, but I hope to see Augustin on the floor with some of the starters often this year! On the worst team in the NBA he averaged 6.4 APG in 29.3 MPG. So I am hoping we give him similar minutes with better players (His shooting % should also go up this way). In the East only Rondo, Calderon, D.Williams, and John Wall averaged more assists than Augustin last year.

Kemo
08-16-2012, 01:52 PM
As much as I love George Hill, I believe the roles should be reversed, with GH playing starters minutes meshed with both units, and DJ as the starter..
I believe DJ will absolutely THRIVE here in Indy, and that he is the answer to what we need in a pure point ..
The thing I worry about, is that he is gonna play out of his mind this season and some other team is gonna come in and make him such an offer, that we will have to let him walk...

While on one hand , his 1 year contract made sense.... but on the flipside they very well could have screwed themselves by not putting a team option on his contract..At least I don't think they did,but I could be mistaken........

All I know, is that DJ is gonna play awesome for us, and I pray that we will somehow have the ability to keep him on this team with a reasonable multi-year contract.

.

CableKC
08-16-2012, 02:09 PM
my hope is that he plays well enough, meshes with the core Players while helping us get to the ECF that it convinces the Simons to make a good contract offer next season....even if it approaches the LT.

CableKC
08-16-2012, 02:20 PM
Kemo, I agree with you on what GH's role should be on the Team. If anything....I can totally see a smaller rotation of DJ/GH/Granger/West/Hibbrt lineup closing out games. In the right situation and match up.... I like the ball movement and scoring in that lineup.

Ace E.Anderson
08-16-2012, 02:37 PM
A lot of people were mad about the way we got rid of DC, and though I'm sad to see him go..it will be nice to have a "true" PG on our team. I feel his play style (distributor who likes to shoot the 3 ball) fills a role that this team hasn't had.

One has to consider the fact that DJ is rather short, and would be much of the same defensive liability that DC was. So it would depend on whether or not his offensive contributions to the starting lineup would be worth the lack of defense within the starting lineup (2 of our 5 starters would then be below average defensively)

All in all it's definitely a good problem to have two players that are capable to start at the PG position. I would believe that if DJ showed that he was a better option to start, GH has shown that he is more than willing to come off the bench and play the spark/6th man role rather well.

As we hear when it comes to players like Jason Terry, Manu Ginobili, etc...it doesn't matter who starts, but who finishes games.

As a poster said before, I definitely see a lineup that includes some sort of a combination of DJ, GH, PG/DG, DG/DW, DW/RH---depending on matchups of course.

xIndyFan
08-16-2012, 02:40 PM
no, I do not expect DJ to play starter minutes. I expect him to be the backup point. No more and no less. IMO, DJ is a temporary player. Unless something special happens, he will be gone next season and someone else will be the backup PG.

For all that DJ brings to the table, the fact remains he is too short and too gawd awful a defender to be a 30 mpg player. at least here in Indiana. Vogel has said over and over that he is looking for guys that can score and defend their position. That metric leaves DJ in the part time role player mode. I see DJ's role as similar to Tyler or Leandro's. A guy that can score, but is a liability on the defensive end.

fwiw, Pacers seem to have 6 guys that currently fit the score and defend their position metric. Hill, Paul, Danny, David, Roy and Gerald Green. The jury is still out on Ian Mahinmi. and who knows about OJ, Lance, Miles and OJ. :whoknows:

Trader Joe
08-16-2012, 03:05 PM
If Augustin is having a great season and Lance is playing pretty well as well, I honestly expect to see Augustin shipped out around the trade deadline in a deal that hopefully lands an upgrade at one of the starting positions.

Sparhawk
08-16-2012, 03:08 PM
I think he'll get close to starter minutes. I also think he needs to show he can play some defense if he wants to keep those minutes.

Sparhawk
08-16-2012, 03:08 PM
If Augustin is having a great season and Lance is playing pretty well as well, I honestly expect to see Augustin shipped out around the trade deadline in a deal that hopefully lands an upgrade at one of the starting positions.

Heck, I'm hoping Tyler comes out strong and both could be traded for someone of value/picks.

xIndyFan
08-16-2012, 03:20 PM
If Augustin is having a great season and Lance is playing pretty well as well, I honestly expect to see Augustin shipped out around the trade deadline in a deal that hopefully lands an upgrade at one of the starting positions.

i agree. I do expect Lance to get another look at backup SG and PG. Be interesting to see what's different about this year vs last. big hopes for lance and paul. time for them to start showing up come game time.

Major Cold
08-16-2012, 03:20 PM
Hill got 25 mpg last year. I expect DJ to be just under that. We all should expect him and Hill out there in the early going of the season.

If Danny is the last starter off the court we could see a lineup of:
DJ
Green
Danny
Tyler
Ian

I hope that it isn't that same rotational philosophy, given that it killed us against the Heat. But Vogel has yet to change that. He uses his bench a lot. And all at the same time.

I would like to see this rotation close the first quarter:
DJ
Hill
Greene
Danny
Ian
Start of the 2nd
DJ
PG
Greene
Tyler
Ian

8 minute mark
DJ
PG
Greene
Ian
Hibbert

And then bring Danny and Hill in sometime from 8 to 6 minutes to play the rest of the quarter. I say we throw PG out there with other capable scorers.

xIndyFan
08-16-2012, 05:12 PM
. . . I hope that it isn't that same rotational philosophy, given that it killed us against the Heat. But Vogel has yet to change that. He uses his bench a lot. And all at the same time. . .

Be interesting to see how things change this year. i.e. during a regular 82 game season. I thought a lot of things done last year were 'condensed schedule' adjustments. plus all the kids are a year older and presumably a year wiser. so things will be looser. I'm cool with however Frank does it as long as he ends up with at least 8 guys that can play.

Eleazar
08-16-2012, 06:14 PM
I hope he is good enough to be a long term answer at starting PG, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

cdash
08-16-2012, 06:57 PM
I hope he is good enough to be a long term answer at starting PG, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

Not trying to sound like a dick, but hasn't he more than proved that he's not an answer at starting point guard? People here pissed and moaned about DC's defense, and Augustin is every bit as bad if not worse on that end of the court. His only true plus skill is passing. He was an integral part of the worst team in NBA history last season. The guy is a backup point guard. He's paid like a backup point guard, he plays like a backup point guard. It is what it is.

Eleazar
08-16-2012, 08:39 PM
Not trying to sound like a dick, but hasn't he more than proved that he's not an answer at starting point guard? People here pissed and moaned about DC's defense, and Augustin is every bit as bad if not worse on that end of the court. His only true plus skill is passing. He was an integral part of the worst team in NBA history last season. The guy is a backup point guard. He's paid like a backup point guard, he plays like a backup point guard. It is what it is.

I don't know, I haven't seen him play since college.

cdash
08-16-2012, 08:42 PM
I don't know, I haven't seen him play since college.

He's going to be good for what we got him for, but I wouldn't expect much more. I actually think he's a better fit for this team than DC was, mainly because he is a table setter. Not exactly an original statement, as I have seen it in multiple stories and columns, but it's worth noting. He will look better around a team that actually has some talent and an established identity.

imbtyler
08-16-2012, 09:01 PM
I think that DJ will get a lot of playing time. I think he'll come out and average double-digit assists, just because he has much better talent on this team than what he was leading in Charlotte. I don't think he'll get the nod to start over George Hill, unless Hill is switched to start at the 2 (and thus, Paul George at the 3).* But I think he'll get a lot of good minutes, he'll run the floor like a general, he'll get dozens of assists, he'll throw lobs and alley-oops all day, and he'll just flat-out dominate at the top of his potential.

Defensively, yeh, we're kind of ****ed when it comes to DJ. But Steve Nash has been dominating the point guard position without defense for years now. As long as Hill/PG/DG can compensate for DJ's defense, we'll be fine.

Ace E.Anderson
08-16-2012, 09:33 PM
Not trying to sound like a dick, but hasn't he more than proved that he's not an answer at starting point guard? People here pissed and moaned about DC's defense, and Augustin is every bit as bad if not worse on that end of the court. His only true plus skill is passing. He was an integral part of the worst team in NBA history last season. The guy is a backup point guard. He's paid like a backup point guard, he plays like a backup point guard. It is what it is.

Given the lack of talent, questionable GM, and shoddy drafting idk if it's completely fair to gage DJ's worth in the NBA. The fact that he was able to average 6 assists on THAT team shows that he has good-really good passing skills (we already know that)

I'm not saying DJ will be a star or anything by any means, and yea he's as much of a defensive liability as DC..but I question whether ANYBODY would be able to thrive at the PG position on the Bobcats (especially a pass first PG) I think this season will show his ceiling/value as a player in this league.

jeffg-body
08-16-2012, 10:13 PM
I could see DJ play 20-25 minutes per game depending on the situation/match ups and if he can play well alongside Hill if he would shift to the 2 spot to give PG rest. I am not gonna predict double digit assists but I think his numbers will improve over his playing in Charlotte due to the talent level we have. I liked the kid coming out of college and I think he will fit in well on our second unit.

Jayday00
08-17-2012, 02:08 AM
He will play 20-25 minutes a night... We are fine with George Hill as our PG because of our offensive system.. It's not meant for the point guard to create and then KICK to the open man.. they are taught to pass the ball 50 times to find the open man.. That's why no point guard on the Pacers will ever average 10 assists or even close to that... Darren Collison was a way better offensive point guard than he was allowed to show.. I have a feeling DJ will fall into that same category..

imbtyler
08-17-2012, 02:34 AM
You have to wonder about other teams playing defense against DJ when he played for the Bobcats. Will the defense on him (with the Pacers) be more or less intense in comparison? Did defenders play harder to prove they can blow out the Bobcats? Or were they less intimidated, and thus, played more lackadaisically? I know it's kind of a loaded (or ********) question. But will DJ be able to work with defenders who are playing with a chip on their shoulder because they "hate" the Pacers? Or will they be more inclined to play heavily against the rest of the team because of the threat provided by our anyone-can-score offensive mentality?

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. I agree that DJ and Hill will most likely split the 48 minutes at point guard right down the middle (or so), meaning 20-25, as others are saying. Between the two of them, there really shouldn't be anyone else playing point guard instead of them (Lance? no. OJ? nooo.). Of course, we don't know how well either of them are playing and working together with the rest of the team in practices and such. I can only hope that we'll soon be able to see some evidence of how well our team is meshing.

Major Cold
08-17-2012, 09:29 AM
Be interesting to see how things change this year. i.e. during a regular 82 game season. I thought a lot of things done last year were 'condensed schedule' adjustments. plus all the kids are a year older and presumably a year wiser. so things will be looser. I'm cool with however Frank does it as long as he ends up with at least 8 guys that can play.

The line change happened when he took over, all last year, and even in the playoffs. This was not a condensed schedule adjustment. It is his method. He is a players coach, and this is a symptom of that.

MillerTime
08-17-2012, 10:03 AM
I would expect Hill to start and Augustin to be the firs to come off the bench and replace George and Hill to move to SG.

I would like to raise Augustin's value, then hopefully trade him away around the trade deadline.

xIndyFan
08-17-2012, 10:06 AM
The line change happened when he took over, all last year, and even in the playoffs. This was not a condensed schedule adjustment. It is his method. He is a players coach, and this is a symptom of that.

:whoknows: you may be right.

but there are definite differences between the last two seasons and the next one. Taking over in the middle of the season, a team full of young and/or untalented players, followed by the condensed season, and taking that as vogel's method is over thinking things, IMO. Coach's methods are dependent on team makeup, i think. Next season the pacers have more talent and more experience and more practice time. I would expect the coaching methods to be correspondingly more complex.

Major Cold
08-17-2012, 10:45 AM
:whoknows: you may be right.

but there are definite differences between the last two seasons and the next one. Taking over in the middle of the season, a team full of young and/or untalented players, followed by the condensed season, and taking that as vogel's method is over thinking things, IMO. Coach's methods are dependent on team makeup, i think. Next season the pacers have more talent and more experience and more practice time. I would expect the coaching methods to be correspondingly more complex.

I hope you are right. I want a 8 man rotation come playoff time. Yes we have more talent on the bench. But last year it was pitched that we have a deep team. Well the leadership believed that with the line changes and stiff rotations in the playoffs.

I would think that a pro coach will adjust, and shorten rotations. But we have not seen that. Doesn't mean it won't happen. It is something to watch as the season progresses.

xIndyFan
08-17-2012, 12:29 PM
vogel did shorten the rotations during the playoffs. by the end of the miami series, he was basically using 6 guys full time and the rest in short stretches. during the orlando series, it was 8 guys, but first tyler and then leandro managed to play them selves into a part time status.

I agree that the most important thing is getting 8 guys that vogel can trust. That seems to be the best number for a playoff run. If a team is playing 10 guys, it's because they don't have 8 guys that can play.


I hope you are right. I want a 8 man rotation come playoff time. Yes we have more talent on the bench. But last year it was pitched that we have a deep team. Well the leadership believed that with the line changes and stiff rotations in the playoffs.

I would think that a pro coach will adjust, and shorten rotations. But we have not seen that. Doesn't mean it won't happen. It is something to watch as the season progresses.

pacergod2
08-17-2012, 02:13 PM
This team is poised for a 10- converted to 8-man rotation. Green, Augustin, and Mahinmi will probably be our bench rotation come playoff time. Tyler and Lance will probably be 9 and 10 during the year.

Major Cold
08-17-2012, 02:33 PM
vogel did shorten the rotations during the playoffs. by the end of the miami series, he was basically using 6 guys full time and the rest in short stretches. during the orlando series, it was 8 guys, but first tyler and then leandro managed to play them selves into a part time status.

I agree that the most important thing is getting 8 guys that vogel can trust. That seems to be the best number for a playoff run. If a team is playing 10 guys, it's because they don't have 8 guys that can play.
Game 5 of Magic was the rotation that I like in the playoffs. But if you look at the box scores of all the Heat and most of the Magic, we had a 9+ man rotation. The Starters played more than in the season. But all rotational players still played some.

I think Ian alone will help shorten the rotation. And Hill will always get 28 mpg+. But there is no reason we play Greene, Lance, and Tyler 10 mpg+ in the playoffs. Maybe just Greene, or just Lance, or just Tyler. But please not all three. I would rather see one of those guys get 20 mpg and have our starters out with rotational players than having three bench players get those minutes.

CableKC
08-17-2012, 02:33 PM
vogel did shorten the rotations during the playoffs. by the end of the miami series, he was basically using 6 guys full time and the rest in short stretches. during the orlando series, it was 8 guys, but first tyler and then leandro managed to play them selves into a part time status.

I agree that the most important thing is getting 8 guys that vogel can trust. That seems to be the best number for a playoff run. If a team is playing 10 guys, it's because they don't have 8 guys that can play.
If we had more reliable and consistent talent.....I think that Vogel would have relied on more than a 6 man rotation in the playoffs. The way that I look at it now...we should have a very reliable 7-man rotation with GH/PG/Granger/West/Hibbert/DJ/Mahinmi. Add in Green and Hansbrough....we should have a decent 9-man rotation.

Kid Minneapolis
08-17-2012, 02:43 PM
DJ Augustin:
- hasn't lived up to expectations..... but has shown glimpses.
- played for a horrible team/organization, so we could say "he was part of the problem" or "he was in a bad situation".
- has a desirable skillset for this team.

There's a lot of questionmarks. Will he pull a Jalen Rose and see a lot of success here, or will he be the same player we've seen in Charlotte.... not consistent.

I think he has the potential... I think he has a team and a system that could lend success to him, so there's really no reason why he shouldn't experience a bit of a career resurrection.

But that's all up to him, I guess we'll all find out.

xIndyFan
08-17-2012, 06:54 PM
Game 5 of Magic was the rotation that I like in the playoffs. But if you look at the box scores of all the Heat and most of the Magic, we had a 9+ man rotation. The Starters played more than in the season. But all rotational players still played some.

I think Ian alone will help shorten the rotation. And Hill will always get 28 mpg+. But there is no reason we play Greene, Lance, and Tyler 10 mpg+ in the playoffs. Maybe just Greene, or just Lance, or just Tyler. But please not all three. I would rather see one of those guys get 20 mpg and have our starters out with rotational players than having three bench players get those minutes.

basically yes. i don't have the playoff minutes in front of me, but IIRC the starters + DC + Leandro played just about as much as they could. the other guys played only as much as they had to get guys a blow. putting amundson in for 5 minutes does not mean, to me at least, he is in the rotation.

My prediction is Ian, Gerald and DJ will be the main guys to add to the starters come playoff time. Gerald looks like a guy that can meet vogel's 'score and defend your position' metric. I hope Ian has some way he can score so that he can be effective as the 3rd big. That is something I'm going to watch for this season. Be nice to have a little size inside for a change.

I have no expectation that DJ can defend, but he is the backup PG. He gets the least amount of minutes in an eight man rotation anyway.

xIndyFan
08-17-2012, 07:00 PM
If we had more reliable and consistent talent.....I think that Vogel would have relied on more than a 6 man rotation in the playoffs. The way that I look at it now...we should have a very reliable 7-man rotation with GH/PG/Granger/West/Hibbert/DJ/Mahinmi. Add in Green and Hansbrough....we should have a decent 9-man rotation.

It would be great if the Pacers end up with 9 guys that can play. I was starting to feel sorry for vogel, roy and david by the end of the playoffs. They just didn't have a 3rd big at all. You could just feel Vogel going 'Oh :censored: everytime he looked down the bench by the end of the Miami series.

I expect/hope Gerald Green and Ian Mahinmi will become two way players by the end of the season. Even better if Tyler and DJ can defend their position. I have less expectation and more hopefullness with them. :laugh:

D0NT SH0OT ME
08-18-2012, 01:48 AM
It makes no sense to start Hill and bring D.J off the bench. George Hill is primarily a scorer. D.J Augustine is primarily a facilitator. The only thing that starting Hill and benching Augustine accomplishes is to diminish both players skill sets. Hill's scoring will be overshadowed by our other more efficient options, while D.J's passing will be wasted on inefficient offensive players. Our starting unit needs a point guard that can get them the ball in advantageous positions, not another scorer to take shots away from them, while our bench needs an efficient scorer that can take over the game for a stretch, and not a facilitator to pass to low efficiency offensive players.

This really shouldn't even be up for debate. Everything about George Hill screams sixth man. He has the offensive skills to play both guard positions, is a good scorer, and has the length and quickness to adequately defend just about any guard in the league. We might as well just start calling him Jason Terry.

waterboy
08-20-2012, 12:23 PM
DJ will play at least 30 minutes a night rather starting or not.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
08-21-2012, 01:22 PM
no, I do not expect DJ to play starter minutes. I expect him to be the backup point. No more and no less. IMO, DJ is a temporary player. Unless something special happens, he will be gone next season and someone else will be the backup PG.

For all that DJ brings to the table, the fact remains he is too short and too gawd awful a defender to be a 30 mpg player. at least here in Indiana. Vogel has said over and over that he is looking for guys that can score and defend their position. That metric leaves DJ in the part time role player mode. I see DJ's role as similar to Tyler or Leandro's. A guy that can score, but is a liability on the defensive end.

fwiw, Pacers seem to have 6 guys that currently fit the score and defend their position metric. Hill, Paul, Danny, David, Roy and Gerald Green. The jury is still out on Ian Mahinmi. and who knows about OJ, Lance, Miles and OJ. :whoknows:

I think the same. I believe that his contract is expiring, so I anticipate a good year from him. He will most likely be a valuable player for us off the bench. His role will be to run the offense and hit open threes or gimmies when he has them. He is very tradeable, so a trade wouldn't surprise me. Something exceptional would have to happen for the Pacers to keep him.

CableKC
08-21-2012, 05:34 PM
This team is poised for a 10- converted to 8-man rotation. Green, Augustin, and Mahinmi will probably be our bench rotation come playoff time. Tyler and Lance will probably be 9 and 10 during the year.
I think that until we get a better offensive scoring option at the PF option than Hansbrough.....I suspect that he'd be included in the 9-man rotation. Hansbrough isn't a great scorer by any means....but he offers something different than what Mahinmi or Miles will likely bring to the table on the offensive end.

CableKC
08-21-2012, 05:39 PM
It makes no sense to start Hill and bring D.J off the bench. George Hill is primarily a scorer. D.J Augustine is primarily a facilitator. The only thing that starting Hill and benching Augustine accomplishes is to diminish both players skill sets. Hill's scoring will be overshadowed by our other more efficient options, while D.J's passing will be wasted on inefficient offensive players. Our starting unit needs a point guard that can get them the ball in advantageous positions, not another scorer to take shots away from them, while our bench needs an efficient scorer that can take over the game for a stretch, and not a facilitator to pass to low efficiency offensive players.

This really shouldn't even be up for debate. Everything about George Hill screams sixth man. He has the offensive skills to play both guard positions, is a good scorer, and has the length and quickness to adequately defend just about any guard in the league. We might as well just start calling him Jason Terry.
I suspect that we will be seeing the 2012 version of Wells prediction that DJ will be supplanting GH as the Starting PG at some point of the season

The Sleeze
08-21-2012, 07:37 PM
Don't know if anybody has posted this but DJ is in town.

From Eddie White's twitter last night(ESPN's Sage Steele and DJ):
http://a.yfrog.com/img532/8760/ja2ix.jpg

CableKC
08-22-2012, 04:53 PM
Don't know if anybody has posted this but DJ is in town.

From Eddie White's twitter last night(ESPN's Sage Steele and DJ):
http://a.yfrog.com/img532/8760/ja2ix.jpg
Either Sage Steele is really tall for a woman....or DJ is much shorter than most of us expect.

J7F
08-22-2012, 05:41 PM
Either Sage Steele is really tall for a woman....or DJ is much shorter than most of us expect.I'm pretty sure he is only 5'10"... Not too many NBA players I can look down on... But he's one of 'em...

MvPlumlee
08-23-2012, 02:27 AM
It makes no sense to start Hill and bring D.J off the bench. George Hill is primarily a scorer. D.J Augustine is primarily a facilitator. The only thing that starting Hill and benching Augustine accomplishes is to diminish both players skill sets. Hill's scoring will be overshadowed by our other more efficient options, while D.J's passing will be wasted on inefficient offensive players. Our starting unit needs a point guard that can get them the ball in advantageous positions, not another scorer to take shots away from them, while our bench needs an efficient scorer that can take over the game for a stretch, and not a facilitator to pass to low efficiency offensive players.

This really shouldn't even be up for debate. Everything about George Hill screams sixth man. He has the offensive skills to play both guard positions, is a good scorer, and has the length and quickness to adequately defend just about any guard in the league. We might as well just start calling him Jason Terry.

It makes sense to me. Hill is needed in the starting lineup for his defense to cover up for our poor perimeter defending big men and our offense isn't much more than pass it to West or Hibbert in the post and let them go to work or pass it to Granger and have him shoot it over his man. Having 5 guys on the court who are all good scorers is exactly what we are trying to achieve and use as our strength.

IMO Augustin in the starting lineup would just experience the same every other PG has experienced so far playing with the frontcourt players we have right now: lack of movement makes it so much harder to find the open man. It is not only his fault Collison struggled.
Augustin can be as good as a sixth man as Hill is. He can come in and facilitate offense when our starting lineup is struggling, he can facilitate the offense of our less gifted bench players and he can score, no doubt about that.

I prefer Hill to start, but if DJ brings what I think he will bring, I want to see his minutes being close to Hills.

MvPlumlee
08-23-2012, 02:30 AM
I'm pretty sure he is only 5'10"... Not too many NBA players I can look down on... But he's one of 'em...
He is 5'10", but listed as 6'0". Don't understand why they allow such fraud.

PacersandIU
08-23-2012, 06:42 AM
Either Sage Steele is really tall for a woman....or DJ is much shorter than most of us expect.

Well, word is that he's short, but then again, Sage is around 6'1" or so... Ntm heels...

McKeyFan
08-23-2012, 07:48 AM
IMO Augustin in the starting lineup would just experience the same every other PG has experienced so far playing with the frontcourt players we have right now: lack of movement makes it so much harder to find the open man. It is not only his fault Collison struggled.

Well, we'll see how it plays out. I think the hope is that Augustin will have better court vision than Hill, who had better court vision than Collison. If that's the case, he just might be a spark to the starter's offense, and that would make a case for him getting some starters minutes.

Even so, i wouldn't argue for Hill getting less minutes than DJ. Hill needs to close games because of his excellent defense and clutch play. Beyond that, there is the fact that we just emptied the purse for him.

xIndyFan
08-23-2012, 08:26 AM
It makes sense to me. Hill is needed in the starting lineup for his defense to cover up for our poor perimeter defending big men and our offense isn't much more than pass it to West or Hibbert in the post and let them go to work or pass it to Granger and have him shoot it over his man. Having 5 guys on the court who are all good scorers is exactly what we are trying to achieve and use as our strength. . .

Vogel has said that he wants guys that can score and defend their position. That definition seems to leave DJ out. He can score, he is an offensive player, but he cannot defend his spot unless he is playing against another short guy. I just see this DJ as a starter thing more based on his college reputation than his actual NBA performance. I hope DJ has a good year, but I do not expect him to be anything other than just another guy.

Pacers starters strength, at the end of last season, was the lack of a weak link that could be attacked and the lack of a guy you could ignore offensively. Putting DJ into the starting lineup gives the Pacers a guy that is going to need help defensively. I just don't see that as something vogel wants to do.

McKeyFan
08-23-2012, 08:30 AM
Vogel has said that he wants guys that can score and defend their position. That definition seems to leave DJ out. He can score, he is an offensive player, but he cannot defend his spot unless he is playing against another short guy. I just see this DJ as a starter thing more based on his college reputation than his actual NBA performance. I hope DJ has a good year, but I do not expect him to be anything other than just another guy.

Pacers starters strength, at the end of last season, was the lack of a weak link that could be attacked and the lack of a guy you could ignore offensively. Putting DJ into the starting lineup gives the Pacers a guy that is going to need help defensively. I just don't see that as something vogel wants to do.
It would be great if Lance actually steps up this year. He can fulfill Vogel's two-pronged test if he does the "P" thing.

BRushWithDeath
08-23-2012, 08:37 AM
We just signed George Hill to a 5 year, $8 million per contract. D.J. Augustin is not playing 30 mintues a night.

xIndyFan
08-23-2012, 09:06 AM
It would be great if Lance actually steps up this year. He can fulfill Vogel's two-pronged test if he does the "P" thing.

:amen: IF Lance can get it together, then it settles lots of issues. Plus Lance's size at the point makes the Pacers a dreadful matchup for all those teams that have been downsizing.

Man, I hope so. :pray:

D0NT SH0OT ME
08-23-2012, 09:31 AM
It makes sense to me. Hill is needed in the starting lineup for his defense to cover up for our poor perimeter defending big men

What exactly are you saying here? Please clarify.


and our offense isn't much more than pass it to West or Hibbert in the post and let them go to work or pass it to Granger and have him shoot it over his man.

Or run Paul George off some screens and kick it to him. All four of our other starters are heavily involved in our offense, which is an extremely thing rare to find in the NBA. The reason it is so rare is because you can only have so many offensive options on the floor before they begin to disrupt each others play.

We don't need another scorer to disrupt the play of our other four scorers. We need a facilitator that can compliment our four scorers on offense by getting them the ball in advantageous positions.


Having 5 guys on the court who are all good scorers is exactly what we are trying to achieve and use as our strength.

Except that is not always an effective strategy. If it were people like Jason Terry and Manu Ginobili would start every game for their respective teams. They do not, however, because unless one of those 5 scorers is also a talented facilitator a la Steve Nash, that unit will be unable to move the ball effectively, and the bench will suffer a drop in scoring from not having enough offensive options present.




IMO Augustin in the starting lineup would just experience the same every other PG has experienced so far playing with the frontcourt players we have right now: lack of movement makes it so much harder to find the open man. It is not only his fault Collison struggled.

D.J Augustin and Darren Collison are vastly different players. Like Hill, Darren was primarily a scorer. Augustin is primarily a distributor.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you feel like Darren struggled? Going off of statistics, Darren had a very good season, so why do you believe he struggled?



Augustin can be as good as a sixth man as Hill is. He can come in and facilitate offense when our starting lineup is struggling, he can facilitate the offense of our less gifted bench players and he can score, no doubt about that.

I prefer Hill to start, but if DJ brings what I think he will bring, I want to see his minutes being close to Hills.

Augustin cannot be as good of a sixth man as Hill is. The concept of a sixth man involves someone that is versatile in what positions they can play, and is able to effectively mesh with both the starting and second unit. Augustin fits neither of those parameters. He cannot play any other position than point guard, and he will not be an effective player with our bench unit.

What so many people seem to not understand is that a basketball lineup is all about combining players that maximize each others abilities. While putting five scorers on the floor at one time might seem like a good idea, in reality all it does is minimize each player's skill set. They cannot all score the ball at the same time, so all of their shot attempts per minute are going to go down, which in turn minimizes their effectiveness. The same thing happens to our bench. With only one efficient scorer left on our bench our opponent's defense will focus on him, which will reduce his and our entire second unit's effectiveness.

waterboy
08-23-2012, 12:06 PM
We just signed George Hill to a 5 year, $8 million per contract. D.J. Augustin is not playing 30 mintues a night.

DJ was in indiana Looking for a place he has been back for about a week or so he leaves to go back out there on Monday for good. Hill will play the two some this year trust me. Also, a playing time clause just may be in DJ's contract. (wink, wink)

CableKC
08-23-2012, 01:10 PM
We just signed George Hill to a 5 year, $8 million per contract. D.J. Augustin is not playing 30 mintues a night.
DJ is a Starting Quality PG and now the only true PG in the lineup. Given our likely 5 man Guard and SF rotation of GHill / PGeorge / DGranger / DJ Augustin / GGreen .....I don't see why he can't command anywhere between 21 to 28 mpg.....which is pretty much "1st Guard off the bench" to 6th Man rotational minutes. I can see Lance getting minutes...but I don't see him getting it at the expense of DJ.

MvPlumlee
08-23-2012, 02:20 PM
What exactly are you saying here? Please clarify.
Collison and Hibbert defending the pick and roll, it never bothered you?
I thought the combination of a poor defending PG and a very slow footed big man was the main door to enter our house of defense and I think we will get the same if players like DJ or Nash would be our starting PG.




Or run Paul George off some screens and kick it to him. All four of our other starters are heavily involved in our offense, which is an extremely thing rare to find in the NBA. The reason it is so rare is because you can only have so many offensive options on the floor before they begin to disrupt each others play.

We don't need another scorer to disrupt the play of our other four scorers. We need a facilitator that can compliment our four scorers on offense by getting them the ball in advantageous positions.
If it were people like Jason Terry and Manu Ginobili would start every game for their respective teams. They do not, however, because unless one of those 5 scorers is also a talented facilitator a la Steve Nash, that unit will be unable to move the ball effectively, and the bench will suffer a drop in scoring from not having enough offensive options present.

There are disadvantages to having 5 scorers on the court as only 1 guy can score the ball, but you can also use it as a strength. If all 5 players can score the ball, you can run a play for the player who is defended by the worst defender. Most teams always have a bad or below average defender on the court, but like you said, it is rare that a team has 5 good offensive players, so that the bad defender is usually covering the bad offensive player. Opponents will think twice if they want to double team one of our players. Because every Pacer on the court can be dangerous.






D.J Augustin and Darren Collison are vastly different players. Like Hill, Darren was primarily a scorer. Augustin is primarily a distributor.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you feel like Darren struggled? Going off of statistics, Darren had a very good season, so why do you believe he struggled
He struggled to play defense, he struggled to find teammates. I am the last one to put much weight into stats, but the stats he produced in New Orleans as a starter didn't just come falling out of the sky. In a better suited offensive system, he can do better.
If he had a very good season(good enough), we wouldn't have traded him.





Augustin cannot be as good of a sixth man as Hill is. The concept of a sixth man involves someone that is versatile in what positions they can play, and is able to effectively mesh with both the starting and second unit. Augustin fits neither of those parameters. He cannot play any other position than point guard, and he will not be an effective player with our bench unit
The concept of a sixth man involves but just one thing: provide an offensive spark. Wether he scores or facilitates scoring, doesn't make much difference to me.
It doesn't matter for us that Augustin is strictly a PG as Hill or George can (continue to) play the SG position.


What so many people seem to not understand is that a basketball lineup is all about combining players that maximize each others abilities. While putting five scorers on the floor at one time might seem like a good idea, in reality all it does is minimize each player's skill set. They cannot all score the ball at the same time, so all of their shot attempts per minute are going to go down, which in turn minimizes their effectiveness. The same thing happens to our bench. With only one efficient scorer left on our bench our opponent's defense will focus on him, which will reduce his and our entire second unit's effectiveness.
I agree partly. If you have a player like Durant or Westbrook, I would also keep Harden on the bench and use Sefolosha to provide the defense. When you have Melo playing for you, you can put a player like Dahntay Jones next to him. If you have Wade and Lebron, Chalmers is almost perfect. But the Pacers don't have that luxury. They are also combining players, in a different way. Maximize team offense in the starting lineup and use good distributors (Augustin and Stephenson) in combination with athletic, quick players (Green, Plumlee, Mahinmi) and a player who can shoot but needs time to do it (Hansbrough). We had only one bench player who could score last year, it seems to me our FO learned from it and added more offense to our bench this offseason. It is not like DJ can't score.

D0NT SH0OT ME
08-24-2012, 12:29 AM
Collison and Hibbert defending the pick and roll, it never bothered you?
I thought the combination of a poor defending PG and a very slow footed big man was the main door to enter our house of defense and I think we will get the same if players like DJ or Nash would be our starting PG.

Darren Collison allowed an average 0.74 points per play when defending the ball handler in a pick and roll situation. This ranked 69th in the league. George Hill averaged the exact same thing. Roy Hibbert allowed an average of 0.82 points per play when defending the roll man in a pick and roll situation. This ranked 39th in the league.

These numbers by no means indicate a fault in our defense.

D.J Augustin allowed an average of 0.82 points per play when defending the ball handler in a pick and roll situation. This ranked 133rd in the league. While this is without a doubt a lower number, is it by no means a glaring weakness. I'm confident that this number would get lower playing with our team compared to the Bobcats.


There are disadvantages to having 5 scorers on the court as only 1 guy can score the ball, but you can also use it as a strength. If all 5 players can score the ball, you can run a play for the player who is defended by the worst defender. Most teams always have a bad or below average defender on the court, but like you said, it is rare that a team has 5 good offensive players, so that the bad defender is usually covering the bad offensive player. Opponents will think twice if they want to double team one of our players. Because every Pacer on the court can be dangerous.


You are not getting my point. Yes, having five efficient offensive players on the floor at the same time will stretch a defense, but this slight benefit is not worth the huge negative impact it has on a bench's scoring ability nor the decrease in production from each individual scorer.

More scorers in the starting lineup = less shots for each player = decrease in production from each player.

Fewer scorers on the bench = less efficient scoring from the bench = decrease in overall production from the bench.


He struggled to play defense, he struggled to find teammates.

If I am following this right, you are essentially saying you think Augustine will not be able to find teammates in our offense because Collison was unable to? That's like comparing apples to oranges. Darren Collison struggled to find teammates because he is a poor facilitator. D.J Augustin is a good facilitator, and therefore your comparison is moot.


The concept of a sixth man involves but just one thing: provide an offensive spark. Wether he scores or facilitates scoring, doesn't make much difference to me.
It doesn't matter for us that Augustin is strictly a PG as Hill or George can (continue to) play the SG position.

Entirely not true. The concept of a sixth man having to be able to provide an offensive spark is not even close to being mutually exclusive.

MvPlumlee
08-24-2012, 06:13 AM
You are not getting my point. Yes, having five efficient offensive players on the floor at the same time will stretch a defense, but this slight benefit is not worth the huge negative impact it has on a bench's scoring ability nor the decrease in production from each individual scorer.

More scorers in the starting lineup = less shots for each player = decrease in production from each player.

Fewer scorers on the bench = less efficient scoring from the bench = decrease in overall production from the bench.


There is only one way to find out, no? :)

For me, the positive things about Hill starting and Augustin sixth man seem to outweigh the negative ones, that's all.

Eleazar
08-24-2012, 06:35 PM
It makes no sense to start Hill and bring D.J off the bench. George Hill is primarily a scorer. D.J Augustine is primarily a facilitator. The only thing that starting Hill and benching Augustine accomplishes is to diminish both players skill sets. Hill's scoring will be overshadowed by our other more efficient options, while D.J's passing will be wasted on inefficient offensive players. Our starting unit needs a point guard that can get them the ball in advantageous positions, not another scorer to take shots away from them, while our bench needs an efficient scorer that can take over the game for a stretch, and not a facilitator to pass to low efficiency offensive players.

This really shouldn't even be up for debate. Everything about George Hill screams sixth man. He has the offensive skills to play both guard positions, is a good scorer, and has the length and quickness to adequately defend just about any guard in the league. We might as well just start calling him Jason Terry.

I've been saying this ever since I have been here, it is exactly the reason I always supported starting McBob over Tyler, and why I wanted to see how Price would perform with the starters. Your best 5 man group isn't always your best 5 players. You best 5 man group is the 5 players who play the best together. Sometimes, in fact often, that is the best 5 players (or at least the best player at each position), but a decent amount of time you are better off playing your second best player at the position because his skill set compliments the other players on the court.

I firmly believe the ideal realistic situation your 6th man is your 4th best player.

BlueNGold
08-25-2012, 10:46 AM
I think DJ should be given the opportunity to show his game works better with the starting unit...and earn the spot. But from what I've heard, he's not the facilitator some seem to the think.

BTW, I visited the Dallas Mavericks forum just a few days ago. They were saying Darren Collison is a pure PG who should be able to facilitate their offense better than the alternatives.

So, what I'm saying is that assuming you have even a cheap version of Jason Kidd, doesn't mean you have that. It's easy to assume the new guy has those skills, but you would be surprised at how difficult those players really are to find.

Ace E.Anderson
08-25-2012, 11:42 AM
I think DJ should be given the opportunity to show his game works better with the starting unit...and earn the spot. But from what I've heard, he's not the facilitator some seem to the think.

BTW, I visited the Dallas Mavericks forum just a few days ago. They were saying Darren Collison is a pure PG who should be able to facilitate their offense better than the alternatives.

So, what I'm saying is that assuming you have even a cheap version of Jason Kidd, doesn't mean you have that. It's easy to assume the new guy has those skills, but you would be surprised at how difficult those players really are to find.

The difference is that Augustin has the numbers (6+ assists pr/gm) to back up the claim. Now obviously stats don't always show true value and skill, but the fact that DJ could average that many assists on THAT team definitely screams pure PG. Also, though DJ is a player that looks to take some shots, he has the vision that someone like DC lacked. Most scouting reports I've read on Augustin described him as a pass first type of guy.

NOBODY should expect the second coming of J Kidd lol, but a guy that can pass to the open man both in half court sets and on the break is something we have lacked.

BlueNGold
08-25-2012, 10:15 PM
The difference is that Augustin has the numbers (6+ assists pr/gm) to back up the claim. Now obviously stats don't always show true value and skill, but the fact that DJ could average that many assists on THAT team definitely screams pure PG. Also, though DJ is a player that looks to take some shots, he has the vision that someone like DC lacked. Most scouting reports I've read on Augustin described him as a pass first type of guy.

NOBODY should expect the second coming of J Kidd lol, but a guy that can pass to the open man both in half court sets and on the break is something we have lacked.

I must say that I do expect more natural PG skills than either DC or Hill. There is nothing natural about their PG skills. What position did Hill play at IUPUI. Wasn't it shooting guard?

I do think with DJ he's a more natural PG....but that's not what I've read from people closer to his game. I hope what I read was wrong...

Coopdog23
08-26-2012, 09:39 PM
He and Stevenson will have equal playing time