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View Full Version : Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?



Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:55 PM
It's that time of year again!


I have a group of player that I rather give the ball to on the clutch than Lebron and JJ is included, I take Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade over Lebron in the last five minutes

Forgetting the rest of the list for a second, last 5 minutes of a close game, who would you rather have on the wing, Joe Johnson or Lebron James?

mattie
08-13-2012, 05:05 PM
Popular opinion doesn't prove anything. But this probably does: LBJ has outperformed every other player in the NBA in the last 5 minutes of a game when the game is within 5 points. That is a fact that cannot be disputed.

CableKC
08-13-2012, 05:08 PM
DJ/GH/Granger/West/Hibbert

EDIT - Oh wait...you're asking about Players not on the Pacers roster.

I'll go with Lebron. He's a total mismatch for the entire NBA.

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 05:25 PM
I cannot believe that this is even in question......:laugh:

pacer4ever
08-13-2012, 05:29 PM
Monta Ellis

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 06:04 PM
this is actually worse than, "Is Brandon Rush a consistent 3 point threat" thread.

Lebron gets so much **** for not taking the last second shot, when 90% of the time, he is making the right basketball play. And in the last 5 minutes, there is no better player than LeBron to rely on. He can do it all.

vnzla, if you really would take Joe Johnson in the last 5 minutes of the game over LeBron James, I am never going to take another word you say seriously. Even Skip Bayless would take LeBron over JJ.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 06:31 PM
Once again TraderJoe is trying to get all the attention, I guess I'm going to open a thread anytime I disagree with somebody so the other people can make me feel better by giving me a pat on the back :rolleyes:

Either way here are the 2011-2012 clutch numbers: http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

1 - Irving

2- Melo (the one who many here think Danny is equal to :lmao:)

3- CP3

4- Lebron

5- Westbrook (the one that many here think is a choker)

6- Bargnani

7- Kobe

8- Monta Ellis ( yes that guy)

9- Pierce

10- Joe Johnson



and Danny is rated 14th, so just because somebody prefers a player over another player in crunch time doesn't mean that that player is better than the other player or is so ridiculous that somebody has to open a new thread to try to ridicule that other person, great try TJ and big fail in your part.

BlueNGold
08-13-2012, 06:32 PM
LeBron has become a great player down the stretch, but he had to learn that from DWade...

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 06:42 PM
Here is also a nice article that explains JJ's numbers in "clutch time"(five minutes or less with less than five points)

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2012/2/13/2795960/nba-stats-2012-joe-johnson-is-clutch


Piggybacking off of Tom Haberstroh's Twitter Timeline, we checkout NBA.com Advanced Stats to look at how clutch Joe Johnson has been so far this year.

My uneducated guess before looking? Seems like Joe has been better because the end of games have been less forced and multiple folks getting the ball later, though it hasn't ignored Joe either. Not every possession goes into Iso-Joe, making the times that he does slightly more effective. Or does it?

What did we find? (Hint: click that link to see the data for yourself)

This season, so far, Joe Johnson has indeed been clutch.

Clutch, as defined by NBA.com, is player performance in the last five minutes of games when the score margin is within five points.

For Joe, everything in the scoring area has gone up, from traditional shooting percentage (49 percent from 43) to all advanced metrics, Joe improves in the last five minutes of games.

His usage goes up, from 27 percent to 36 percent and his offensive rating increases also (113.8 from 101.8), without any incline in defensive rating (96.5 from 96.7), leaving his net efficiency even higher in the clutch.

Turnovers down, as is everything that is not associated with scoring -- apparently clutch time is Joe's time with the ball as rebounding and assist rate drop as his scoring/offensive efficiency increase.

So Joe's been clutch this season -- how does he compare to last season, a noted down year for Joe? Well, he was not as clutch as this year -- his shooting percentages all around went down and usage went up to the same level as this season, though his +/- and overall efficiency margin improved.

Even if he is taking approximately the same amount per 36 minutes (18.8 this season to 19.2 last), maybe he is taking better shots in the clutch than last season, because he is making more (9.1 vs 6.7). Though consider also that he is making more threes this year than last, likely making everything look better.

Looking deeper into the stats, we see that compared to last year Joe is getting more clutch minutes per "clutch game played", presumably because the Hawks are locked in more tight games late, including overtimes games. To date, Joe has played 67 clutch minutes in 12 games compared to 107 clutch minutes in 34 games last season.

As far as location stats, Joe is actually shooting slightly fewer shots from mid-range and closer in clutch time than last season (72% last season to 66% this season), but more successful this season (52% this season to 37% last season).

Exit Question: What do you think -- do the stats lie regarding Joe? Or is he -- gasp! -- clutch?

mattie
08-13-2012, 06:43 PM
LeBron has become a great player down the stretch, but he had to learn that from DWade...

Wade: "hey LBJ, play better in late games ok?"

LBJ: "Oh yeah?? Ok! Good idea!"

*LBJ players better*

LBJ has put up MUCH better stats in late games in Cleveland than he has in Miami. I'd argue Wade hurt LBJ because the media pulled a narrative out of their *** that suggested Wade was better in late games than LBJ.

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 06:43 PM
Once again TraderJoe is trying to get all the attention, I guess I'm going to open a thread anytime I disagree with somebody so the other people can make me feel better by giving me a pat on the back :rolleyes:

Either way here are the 2011-2012 clutch numbers: http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

1 - Irving

2- Melo (the one who many here think Danny is equal to :lmao:)

3- CP3

4- Lebron

5- Westbrook (the one that many here think is a choker)

6- Bargnani

7- Kobe

8- Monta Ellis ( yes that guy)

9- Pierce

10- Joe Johnson



and Danny is rated 14th, so just because somebody prefers a player over another player in crunch time doesn't mean that that player is better than the other player or is so ridiculous that somebody has to open a new thread to try to ridicule that other person, great try TJ and big fail in your part.
why are you changing the subject? Why are you talking about Danny? This is about LeBron vs JJ. And what you just posted supports that LeBron > JJ.

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 06:45 PM
Here is also a nice article that explains JJ's numbers in "clutch time"(five minutes or less with less than five points)

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2012/2/13/2795960/nba-stats-2012-joe-johnson-is-clutch
all this says is that JJ is clutch. Doesn't say he is better than LBJ.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 06:45 PM
why are you changing the subject? Why are you talking about Danny? This is about LeBron vs JJ. And what you just posted supports that LeBron > JJ.

But Joe Johnson is in the picture and that is significant......:cool: ...

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 06:46 PM
why are you changing the subject? Why are you talking about Danny? This is about LeBron vs JJ. And what you just posted supports that LeBron > JJ.

I said that I prefer JJ over Lebron and then everybody started to freak out like it was so ridiculous, the numbers I posted prove my point that JJ is not as far of a clutch player from Lebron as many think here.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 06:47 PM
all this says is that JJ is clutch. Doesn't say he is better than LBJ.

Apparently you didn't read the comment. He said that all of these players were close enough that the choice on who to select in the last five minutes is a personal choice of the selector. I pick LBJ over JJ but I would take Kobe over LBJ even though LBJ is rated higher....:cool: ...

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 06:48 PM
all this says is that JJ is clutch. Doesn't say he is better than LBJ.

You are late to the party, it looks to me like you don't know wtf I'm talking about, go ahead and read what I posted on the other thread that made TJ open up this thread and come back to me.

Steagles
08-13-2012, 06:50 PM
I want Deron Williams.

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 06:51 PM
Also look at more of those stats. You have highlighted points scored only. So they shoot pretty similarly. LeBron scores more in the last 5 mins. LeBron scores more on his own in the last 5 mins. LeBron rebounds at a way higher rate in the last 5 mins. LeBron dishes way more assists in the last 5 mins. LeBron blocks way more shots in the last 5 mins. Lebron gets more steals in the last 5 mins.

What i see is one player that is far superior on both offense and defense in the last 5 mins of the game. Lebron is that player.

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 06:55 PM
I said that I prefer JJ over Lebron and then everybody started to freak out like it was so ridiculous, the numbers I posted prove my point that JJ is not as far of a clutch player from Lebron as many think here.
Except JJ isn't close to LeBron. Thats why people freaked out. Its a ridiculous statement to say. You can't say something like that and not expect people to jump on it. Its a stupid thing to say. And it doesn't help your argument at all.

You are quoted in the OP saying you would take JJ over LeBron in the clutch. I don't care what the other argument was about. Thats what we are discussing in this thread.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 07:02 PM
Except JJ isn't close to LeBron. Thats why people freaked out. Its a ridiculous statement to say. You can't say something like that and not expect people to jump on it. Its a stupid thing to say. And it doesn't help your argument at all.

You are quoted in the OP saying you would take JJ over LeBron in the clutch. I don't care what the other argument was about. Thats what we are discussing in this thread.

Yes I said that I rather take JJ over Lebron in the last five minutes so what is the big effing deal? why the crying and whining? You prefer Danny over Melo and do you see me opening a new thread about that ridiculous thought? It's your opinion and if I disagree I tell you but I'm not going to freakout as many of you are doing at this moment.

BlueNGold
08-13-2012, 07:07 PM
Wade: "hey LBJ, play better in late games ok?"

LBJ: "Oh yeah?? Ok! Good idea!"

*LBJ players better*

LBJ has put up MUCH better stats in late games in Cleveland than he has in Miami. I'd argue Wade hurt LBJ because the media pulled a narrative out of their *** that suggested Wade was better in late games than LBJ.

Lol. LeBron had a bad reputation for choking down the stretch before this year and even early in the playoffs people were doubting him. He played scared until Wade taught him. It was Wade, after playing terrible and arguing with his coach, who got the Heat cranked up during the Indiana series...and LeBron followed suit and started playing at a very high level...even down the stretch. Better than he ever has played and that's why they won it all.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Lol. LeBron had a bad reputation for choking down the stretch before this year and even early in the playoffs people were doubting him. He played scared until Wade taught him. It was Wade, after playing terrible and arguing with his coach, who got the Heat cranked up during the Indiana series...and LeBron followed suit and started playing at a very high level...even down the stretch. Better than he ever has played and that's why they won it all.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RRPPB_aWiy8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



This one was on the playoffs two months ago, remember the game where he choked and Lance was doing the sign?



<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GWeCJd6SQgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 07:21 PM
Yes I said that I rather take JJ over Lebron in the last five minutes so what is the big effing deal? why the crying and whining? You prefer Danny over Melo and do you see me opening a new thread about that ridiculous thought? It's your opinion and if I disagree I tell you but I'm not going to freakout as many of you are doing at this moment.
Find a quote of me saying I prefer Danny over Melo and go ahead and open the thread.

I even went back and read the thread where this started. I don't see how it helps your point at all. All you sound like is Skip Bayless by calling him LeChoke. Thats not a good thing btw.

This is what you always do. This is why people jump on you. You make an outlandish claim like saying JJ is better than LeBron in the clutch (and then provide stats to prove your point except they prove that LeBron is far superior...). Then you go on to twist your argument into something else and blame others for doing so. The entire thread was trying to get back to talking about clutch performances while you were dodging. This all happens often.

mattie
08-13-2012, 07:22 PM
Lol. LeBron had a bad reputation for choking down the stretch before this year and even early in the playoffs people were doubting him. He played scared until Wade taught him. It was Wade, after playing terrible and arguing with his coach, who got the Heat cranked up during the Indiana series...and LeBron followed suit and started playing at a very high level...even down the stretch. Better than he ever has played and that's why they won it all.

Yes. I know what ESPN told you. I also know they were wrong. and I can prove it. Go to 82games.com and check everyone season prior to 10-11. James had by far the best performance out of everyone every year and it wasn't even close.

Scared? LBJ didn't play scared when he scored 29 points straight against Detroit. The only time LBJ ever really played bad was the 10-11 Finals. An anomaly. That same playoffs the series prior he dominated the leagues MVP by himself.

The whole "LBJ isn't clutch" was always an absurd ridiculous narrative that had absolutely no evidence in support of it.

mattie
08-13-2012, 07:23 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RRPPB_aWiy8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



This one was on the playoffs two months ago, remember the game where he choked and Lance was doing the sign?



<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GWeCJd6SQgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Haha did you even watch that game? LBJ was a beast late in that game. You should probably rewatch it.

BlueNGold
08-13-2012, 07:28 PM
vnzla - nice videos. Yes, LeBron had an embarrassingly weak reputation in terms of confidence/clutch. That's LeBron 101 stuff. Just lacked the confidence. As great as he is, he's not like many of the other greats like Kobe and MJ...and even Wade. Those guys always had supreme confidence in late game situations. They craved the ball. LeBron...even now... does not.

mattie
08-13-2012, 07:28 PM
There will always be a never ending argument between people who watch the game as it is and people who just believe ESPN. ESPN's bowl movements or what they refer to as creative narratives are never ever founded in reality. It's how they want you to see the game. But people like BnG and VNZ believe whatever they tell them.

Oh well.

mattie
08-13-2012, 07:32 PM
This is what ESPN has told us:

Kobe is clutch
LBJ is not.
Peyton Manning is a loser
Tim Tebow is a winner.
Dwight Howard is a bad person.
SVG is a good person.
Kevin Love is a nice guy.
Artest is a thug.
Kobe is a rapist.
Ben Roethlisberger is good at football. (leave his off the field actions out of this!!)
Tebow is the story of last year.
Cam Newton? Who's that??

and many, many more before.

Thanks ESPN. You keep me on my toes with your constant ********.

BlueNGold
08-13-2012, 07:34 PM
There will always be a never ending argument between people who watch the game as it is and people who just believe ESPN. ESPN's bowl movements or what they refer to as creative narratives are never ever founded in reality. It's how they want you to see the game. But people like BnG and VNZ believe whatever they tell them.

Oh well.

I don't even watch ESPN. All you need to do is watch LeBron's demeanor. He has more physical abilities than any NBA player except maybe Chamberlain yet he looks like a scared, wimpering puppy. I can guarantee that LeBron would never win a championship without another spectacular player with killer instinct keeping his confidence up. What LeBron could be is almost unimaginable if he had Reggie Miller's confidence, for example. Arrogant he certainly is. But I've been watching basketball since the 1960's and I know a confident player when I see one. LeBron doesn't have that naturally.

BlueNGold
08-13-2012, 07:42 PM
Apparently you didn't read the comment. He said that all of these players were close enough that the choice on who to select in the last five minutes is a personal choice of the selector. I pick LBJ over JJ but I would take Kobe over LBJ even though LBJ is rated higher....:cool: ...

Yep. I'm all for team play, but when you have a guy as good as Kobe Bryant, you want him to shoot the ball....and you want him to want to do it. That's the difference. LeBron does not crave the ball and when it comes down to the last minute, the very best players will win the game almost for that single reason.

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 07:56 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RRPPB_aWiy8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>



This one was on the playoffs two months ago, remember the game where he choked and Lance was doing the sign?



<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GWeCJd6SQgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
So now;
its choking if you dont hit absolutely every clutch shot? Give me a break. Because Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade (your list btw) never choke right? Oh wait:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HwXsRkpk2m4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kD837UhQmcg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Kobe so clutch!!!!

You see that fantastic game 1 Melo had against the heat in the playoffs where they knicks scored a scorching 67 points?! 11 points on 20% shooting. MELO is spelled CLUTCH right? LeBron scored 32 points that game and shot 10-14 btw.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/g7EewHjWSTE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oh and who can forget this choking performance from Melo:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/oDIWh9CDOJk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Kevin Durant missed a game tying shot in game 4 of the finals, he must be a choker too. He did the same thing in game 3 against the Lakers. Dude sucks right? Also:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/F0M0OGiMqt8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poq8JY23oD0

Paul Pierce surely proves your point though:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2VeUFYyhu5M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rUlukQ2ZI0s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Joe Johnson? go to 2:25
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jh3DG-K_2EA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Also lets not forget, Johnson has never been out of the second round of the playoffs.

Miami has to defer to Wade since LeBron sucks in the clutch. Look how good he is:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vCne5nun8oc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ryFXRo8NRbw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/goAy_zEVPRk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Man, all these superstars are ****ing garbage in the clutch i guess.

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 08:05 PM
I don't even watch ESPN. All you need to do is watch LeBron's demeanor. He has more physical abilities than any NBA player except maybe Chamberlain yet he looks like a scared, wimpering puppy. I can guarantee that LeBron would never win a championship without another spectacular player with killer instinct keeping his confidence up. What LeBron could be is almost unimaginable if he had Reggie Miller's confidence, for example. Arrogant he certainly is. But I've been watching basketball since the 1960's and I know a confident player when I see one. LeBron doesn't have that naturally.
Yet is was LeBron who was coming up in the clutch in the Olympics on a team with Kobe, Melo, Durant, Paul and more. In the two close games, Lithuania and Spain, LeBron came up biggest. But no, LeBron doesn't have any of that "natural instinct". He just defers to everyone other star right?

Major Cold
08-13-2012, 08:14 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by vnzla81 http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1493096#post1493096)
Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?



No. It is clear that Lebron has gotten better this year. He took over games in the finals. And no I don't think he is better than Jordan. But this is clearly not the same Lebron as last year. And game 4 against us was the coming out party. I am not a fan of him, because of his antics. But he has grown up a lot. And winning the gold and the championship is prove. It isn't a mask.

Will he be a legend on Jordan's level? If you asked me last year I would say no. But this year he grew up. Developed a nice step back mid-range jumper. Was able to take two dribbles on the open three and hit the corner spot up shooter. Last year he would have taken the open three.

Lebron is blossoming. He was always had the skill. Now he has the maturation.

xBulletproof
08-13-2012, 08:16 PM
LeBron has all the confidence in the world. He just makes the right basketball play no matter what the clock says. If its the first play of the game, or the last he's just going to make the smart play. So, yes you can force the ball out of his hands in the clutch but that's no lack of confidence. It's how he plays, at all times.

I don't see a problem with it either. He's going to find the best shot on the floor, even if its not his. More often than not that's going to go in your favor. People like making a big deal out of nothing.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 08:20 PM
So now;
its choking if you dont hit absolutely every clutch shot? Give me a break. Because Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade (your list btw) never choke right? Oh wait:




Kobe so clutch!!!!

You see that fantastic game 1 Melo had against the heat in the playoffs where they knicks scored a scorching 67 points?! 11 points on 20% shooting. MELO is spelled CLUTCH right? LeBron scored 32 points that game and shot 10-14 btw.



Oh and who can forget this choking performance from Melo:

Kevin Durant missed a game tying shot in game 4 of the finals, he must be a choker too. He did the same thing in game 3 against the Lakers. Dude sucks right? Also:


Paul Pierce surely proves your point though:

Also lets not forget, Johnson has never been out of the second round of the playoffs.

Miami has to defer to Wade since LeBron sucks in the clutch. Look how good he is:

Man, all these superstars are ****ing garbage in the clutch i guess.

Overreacting much? ........ show me all the videos you want and I would still take those guys over Lebron, that is my opinion and if you don't like it and you want to cry about it go ahead.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 08:26 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by vnzla81 http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1493096#post1493096)
Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?



No. It is clear that Lebron has gotten better this year. He took over games in the finals. And no I don't think he is better than Jordan. But this is clearly not the same Lebron as last year. And game 4 against us was the coming out party. I am not a fan of him, because of his antics. But he has grown up a lot. And winning the gold and the championship is prove. It isn't a mask.

Will he be a legend on Jordan's level? If you asked me last year I would say no. But this year he grew up. Developed a nice step back mid-range jumper. Was able to take two dribbles on the open three and hit the corner spot up shooter. Last year he would have taken the open three.

Lebron is blossoming. He was always had the skill. Now he has the maturation.

Yep I agree that he got better(after choking on the first few two games with the Pacers) but I still don't trust him enough, maybe another year of not choking
could change my thinking.

mattie
08-13-2012, 08:26 PM
LeBron has all the confidence in the world. He just makes the right basketball play no matter what the clock says. If its the first play of the game, or the last he's just going to make the smart play. So, yes you can force the ball out of his hands in the clutch but that's no lack of confidence. It's how he plays, at all times.

I don't see a problem with it either. He's going to find the best shot on the floor, even if its not his. More often than not that's going to go in your favor. People like making a big deal out of nothing.

That's why he's so great. LBJ plays great basketball.

Someone like Kobe though hurts his team because his desire to be the hero tops his desire to win. He'd rather take a forces shot while double teamed than pass to an open man who could help win the game.

LBJ is truly great.

PacerPenguins
08-13-2012, 08:28 PM
Rudy Gay

Ace E.Anderson
08-13-2012, 08:32 PM
Before game 4 against the pacers, Lebron was not very good in the clutch. He did choke in the finals against the Mavs and he had come up small multiple times throughout his career, both regular season and in the playoffs. After game 4 against the pacers, he played very well and very clutch throughout the rest of the playoffs and the Olympics. Time will tell if he's turned the corner or not, but his recent success doesn't erase years of coming up small...at least in my eyes.

As for JJ, he (a lot like DG) is a lot more clutch than ppl think. When I think of clutch, I think of momentum swinging shots (or plays) as well as game winners or game tying shots. No way is JJ better than Lebron in any way shape or form, but before that game against the pacers, JJ prob had close to as many clutch plays as Lebron. They're just on a much smaller scale and stage in ATL.

BlueNGold
08-13-2012, 08:34 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by vnzla81 http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1493096#post1493096)
Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?



No. It is clear that Lebron has gotten better this year. He took over games in the finals. And no I don't think he is better than Jordan. But this is clearly not the same Lebron as last year. And game 4 against us was the coming out party. I am not a fan of him, because of his antics. But he has grown up a lot. And winning the gold and the championship is prove. It isn't a mask.

Will he be a legend on Jordan's level? If you asked me last year I would say no. But this year he grew up. Developed a nice step back mid-range jumper. Was able to take two dribbles on the open three and hit the corner spot up shooter. Last year he would have taken the open three.

Lebron is blossoming. He was always had the skill. Now he has the maturation.

Good lord. Finally a balanced view. Yes, LeBron has grown up. It doesn't take much to tell that. But his resume' for being a cold blooded killer isn't that long. He's just beginning to do it. If he actually had that naturally, he would have been killing it a long time ago. I think y'all who think he's always had it are confusing talent with killer instinct and craving of the ball at crunch time. LeBron was always going to be great, but unless he grasps that killer instinct, he was never going to meet his potential. But like you say, he's beginning to get it. It would be most interesting to see if he'd crawl into his shell if he didn't have DWade (who really was born with *it*)

BlueNGold
08-13-2012, 08:36 PM
LeBron has all the confidence in the world. He just makes the right basketball play no matter what the clock says. If its the first play of the game, or the last he's just going to make the smart play. So, yes you can force the ball out of his hands in the clutch but that's no lack of confidence. It's how he plays, at all times.

I don't see a problem with it either. He's going to find the best shot on the floor, even if its not his. More often than not that's going to go in your favor. People like making a big deal out of nothing.

LeBron has all the arrogance in the world. Very different thing than being naturally confident. He's getting there though, with DWade's teaching...

Edit: Here is a nice blurb on this:

Arrogance uses the mask of confidence but it has no real basis for showing off, while confidence never shows off and it always relies on facts and knowledge. Also the confident knows what it is to be known and knows precisely how to act achieving the expected result, while the arrogant pretends to know and usually screws up. The confident has nothing to hide, he knows who he is and he's not ashamed of anything, while the arrogant pretends to be someone he isn't and by that hiding his true self of which he is ashamed..

BlueNGold
08-13-2012, 08:37 PM
Before game 4 against the pacers, Lebron was not very good in the clutch. He did choke in the finals against the Mavs and he had come up small multiple times throughout his career, both regular season and in the playoffs. After game 4 against the pacers, he played very well and very clutch throughout the rest of the playoffs and the Olympics. Time will tell if he's turned the corner or not, but his recent success doesn't erase years of coming up small...at least in my eyes. .

Fact. Every word.

mattie
08-13-2012, 08:44 PM
LBJ has had the best performance of every player over the last 5 years in clutch time. He has always been the best. This cannot be disputed. The numbers speak for themselves.

It is a little more accurate that LBJ has definitely learned to dominate a game in the playoffs when the absolute best teams in the country are throwing their best at him. That much is true. Much like Shaq in 2000, LBJ finally figured out how to dominate a game through 4 quarters late in the playoffs.

But the idea that he has faded in late game situations is patently false. And I have the numbers to prove it.

ilive4sports
08-13-2012, 09:25 PM
Overreacting much? ........ show me all the videos you want and I would still take those guys over Lebron, that is my opinion and if you don't like it and you want to cry about it go ahead.
You missed the point. I posted the videos to show how stupid it is to post youtube highlights as a supporting claim to LeBron's not clutch. You can do that for every star because no one is perfect.

So many people define clutch as the last second shot, when thats just a small piece of it. To say Lebron isn't clutch means you don't understand what clutch truly is. Thats why those clutch stats you posted are the last 5 minutes in a 5 point game. LeBron has been excelling in that situation for so long. Look at previous seasons for the same stat:

2011-2012 http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
2010-2011 http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM
2009-2010 http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
2008-2009 http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

so in the last 4 seasons, Lebron has been in the top 5 every year. Even leading the league back in 09-10. And thats just on points. And when you factor in shooting %, rebounding, assists and defense, its not that close honestly. He is the TOP performer because he gets it done on both ends of the court.

There is no reason to think that LeBron isn't clutch other than because he has missed buzzer beaters that ESPN talks about for a half hour on sports center. What would you rather, Kobe taking a highly contested 3, or LeBron hitting Haslem for a wide open jumper? Which is the smarter basketball play? The pass. Thats the play that LeBron makes and gets vilified for by the media because they have it in their head that LeBron needs to be the one to physically put the ball in the hoop, rather than making the correct play.

SycamoreKen
08-13-2012, 09:30 PM
Since LBJ is better than anyone else over the first 37 minutes of the game, I'll keep him out there for the final 5 minutes as well.

mattie
08-13-2012, 09:32 PM
There is no reason to think that LeBron isn't clutch other than because he has missed buzzer beaters that ESPN talks about for a half hour on sports center. What would you rather, Kobe taking a highly contested 3, or LeBron hitting Haslem for a wide open jumper? Which is the smarter basketball play? The pass. Thats the play that LeBron makes and gets vilified for by the media because they have it in their head that LeBron needs to be the one to physically put the ball in the hoop, rather than making the correct play.

Quoted for truth.

xBulletproof
08-13-2012, 09:58 PM
LeBron has all the arrogance in the world. Very different thing than being naturally confident. He's getting there though, with DWade's teaching...

Edit: Here is a nice blurb on this:

Arrogance uses the mask of confidence but it has no real basis for showing off, while confidence never shows off and it always relies on facts and knowledge. Also the confident knows what it is to be known and knows precisely how to act achieving the expected result, while the arrogant pretends to know and usually screws up. The confident has nothing to hide, he knows who he is and he's not ashamed of anything, while the arrogant pretends to be someone he isn't and by that hiding his true self of which he is ashamed..

This is your interpretation of it, obviously. One I clearly don't agree with. If he was as insecure as you believe he'd be crawling in a hole with all the criticism he gets. Anyone that insecure would start chucking bad shots at the end of games to appease the critics claiming he should take the last shot. Yet, he hasn't changed how he plays to appease anyone.

I doubt he's learning anything from Wade, as much as its learning how to play with and off teammates who aren't terrible.

Pace Maker
08-13-2012, 10:22 PM
LOL at the people acting like Lebron has been "awful in the 4th quarter consistently until last years playoffs or whatnot. Tell me why LEbron's PER in the 4th quarter is consistently amongst the best in the league? Because he makes the best god damn plays. Just because Skip Bayless or ESPN says something it doesn't mean its true. Granted, he was freaking awful against Dallas last year.

But the way people acted like Lebron has been awful in 4th Q's his entire career is just blasphemous. Y'all need to rewatch some Cleveland vs Detroit playoff series methinks.

mattie
08-13-2012, 10:35 PM
Last thoughts on this right quick. I don't mean to continue to beat this dead horse but I kinda gotta.

When you repeat these ESPN driven narratives and then say, "I don't watch ESPN" (haha uh yeah you do, you can't follow sports today without watching ESPN sorry) we can see right through it because there is no where else you could have come up with the concept.

LBJ since he entired the league as a rookie has been dominating games in the 4th. It's just a fact. You had to have gotten the idea from somewhere. It would have been impossible for you to come up with the idea on your own because you cannot just watch LBJ play and then suddenly decide "he's not clutch."

ESPN's nonstop attempts to bring LBJ down a notch is where the idea originated from. It'd be impossible for you to watch LBJ over his career average more points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than any other player in close games and then say, "he's not clutch derrrrrrrr!"

At least own it. You watch ESPN like the rest of us. Only YOU take them seriously. :) The rest of us don't unless they actually say something worth repeating.

yoadknux
08-13-2012, 10:37 PM
Joe Johnson vs Lebron James? How random.

mattie
08-13-2012, 10:45 PM
Kind of reminds me when people repeat crazy **** Faux News says and then deny watching the channel. "Derr I don't watch Faux!" Um. Yes. you. do.

adamscb
08-14-2012, 08:55 AM
:mjpopcorn:

Trader Joe
08-14-2012, 09:00 AM
Once again TraderJoe is trying to get all the attention, I guess I'm going to open a thread anytime I disagree with somebody so the other people can make me feel better by giving me a pat on the back :rolleyes:

Either way here are the 2011-2012 clutch numbers: http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

1 - Irving

2- Melo (the one who many here think Danny is equal to :lmao:)

3- CP3

4- Lebron

5- Westbrook (the one that many here think is a choker)

6- Bargnani

7- Kobe

8- Monta Ellis ( yes that guy)

9- Pierce

10- Joe Johnson



and Danny is rated 14th, so just because somebody prefers a player over another player in crunch time doesn't mean that that player is better than the other player or is so ridiculous that somebody has to open a new thread to try to ridicule that other person, great try TJ and big fail in your part.

How is it a fail? Do you see who is number 4 on that list?

Anyway, I think we may have some issues here on term, if it came down to a last second three, and the player I picked had to take it, I'd pick Joe Johnson because he is a better shooter, but in terms of clutch play, which is stuff other than just shooting, I'd take the more complete player. Lebron is a 5 tool player, maybe the only one in the NBA (Scoring, ball handling, passing, defense (on ball and team), and rebounding) and he does all of them very well in late game situations, just because he does not always take the last shot does not mean he is just clutch.

As far as letting everyone "pat me on the back", I've tried to address everyone of your posts directly and hold a conversation between you and me as well. Honestly, I was interested to see if anyone else would go out on the same limb as you, not ridicule you just so that's on the record. Like I said if we're taking a game winning three pointer, this conversation may change a bit.

vapacersfan
08-14-2012, 09:16 AM
Kind of reminds me when people repeat crazy **** Faux News says and then deny watching the channel. "Derr I don't watch Faux!" Um. Yes. you. do.

Random to see this thrown into a NBA thread where politics was not brought up at all.

I will say, though, I enjoy hearing anyone bash any media type. It is one thing to figure it out, but after a while it should be ovbious every media base has a bias. Fox news (leans right), CNN (or if you would prefer controlled News Network to go with your "faux news") MSNBC (leans stupid as of late), ESPN (leans whatever Stern asks...)...they all have a bias

mattie
08-14-2012, 02:27 PM
Random to see this thrown into a NBA thread where politics was not brought up at all.

I will say, though, I enjoy hearing anyone bash any media type. It is one thing to figure it out, but after a while it should be ovbious every media base has a bias. Fox news (leans right), CNN (or if you would prefer controlled News Network to go with your "faux news") MSNBC (leans stupid as of late), ESPN (leans whatever Stern asks...)...they all have a bias

Read my prior post. I was makin' fun of the people who deny watching ESPN while repeating every ******** story line.

oz_pacer
08-14-2012, 03:30 PM
Depends if you need a 2 or a 3 to win

AesopRockOn
08-14-2012, 04:21 PM
If there are eight posters on this board who want to be murdered, then I hope this isn't real life.

OlBlu
08-14-2012, 04:22 PM
If there are eight posters on this board who want to be murdered, then I hope this isn't real life.

I would like to help a couple of them out with that.....:cool: ...

Trader Joe
08-14-2012, 04:31 PM
I would like to help a couple of them out with that.....:cool: ...

Um....

OlBlu
08-14-2012, 04:39 PM
Um....

That was a joke, TJ.....:cool: ...

imbtyler
08-14-2012, 10:47 PM
LeBron James. I think he's escalated past his "hated by the Gods" phase, and now he's just here to play basketball and win games. It's kind of a given fact that he managed to "turn on" his clutch mode in the playoffs this past season, and WILLED the Heat to a championship. Besides that, I just don't like Joe Johnson, and I think he's both one of the most underrated and overrated players in the league. He doesn't get many looks from critics, hence underrated. But he's way overrated in that he got a contract that is beyond the border of insanity.

LeBron gets this one.

RamBo_Lamar
08-15-2012, 12:40 AM
This thread is almost as retarded as having Ron Artest back as a Pacer.