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View Full Version : Should the Pacers make another move?



AugustinGrangerHill
08-11-2012, 09:00 AM
do you think the Pacers should make an end of the bench move, I would like to get a decent Power Forward that can push Tyler for his spot.

yoadknux
08-11-2012, 09:11 AM
There's no one left that is really good and we don't have much cap space anyway

xIndyFan
08-11-2012, 09:37 AM
no, unless you get someone like barbosa that can play. otherwise, let's watch the guys play and save the last slot for fixing whatever needs to be fixed at the trade deadline.

1984
08-11-2012, 09:40 AM
Leandro Brabosa; we most certainly did not see his best.

pwee31
08-11-2012, 09:41 AM
I would still like to add another wing player. I know we have Green, Stephenson and OJohnson, but I would like a vet on the wing in case anything happens to Danny or PG. I know we can slide Hill to SG as well, but I would like to add someone like Delfino if possible, though I expect a team like the Rockets to overpay him since they missed out on Howard.

Also wouldn't mind Pietrus, or bringing Barbosa back. On the fence with Josh Howard and Michael Redd depending on their health.

Unsure about PF spot. We've heard rumors of Tolliver and Craig Smith... Not really exciting. I actually would prefer a guy like DJ White or gamble on someone that's low risk like Yi JianLian, Al Thornton.

If not a wing, m

wintermute
08-11-2012, 09:41 AM
Keep an eye on Houston. They have around 20 players right now, and it seems like half of them are PFs. They'll have to waive or trade a number of them now that the Dwight trade option is gone. I'd offer next year's first for Patterson, but I don't think Rockets will go for that.

pwee31
08-11-2012, 09:42 AM
no, unless you get someone like barbosa that can play. otherwise, let's watch the guys play and save the last slot for fixing whatever needs to be fixed at the trade deadline.

Do we only have 1 spot left? I thought we had 2? If only one, no need to fill it, keep it open in case something opens up

Tom White
08-11-2012, 11:15 AM
Keep an eye on Houston. They have around 20 players right now, and it seems like half of them are PFs. They'll have to waive or trade a number of them now that the Dwight trade option is gone. I'd offer next year's first for Patterson, but I don't think Rockets will go for that.

This may be the best thought for now. Houston will have to do something, or swallow some salaries by releasing players.

mattie
08-11-2012, 01:10 PM
Yes. Trade multiple draft picks and west for josh smith

OlBlu
08-11-2012, 01:14 PM
do you think the Pacers should make an end of the bench move, I would like to get a decent Power Forward that can push Tyler for his spot.

The Pacers should always be on the lookout for someone good regardless of the position...... It is nice to keep a spot open for flexibility too....:cool: ... Shift+R improves the quality of this image. CTRL+F5 reloads the whole page.

Tom White
08-11-2012, 01:15 PM
Yes. Trade multiple draft picks and west for josh smith

I really hope you're kidding. Give away picks + our most veteran leadership presence (not to mention a very good player) for a knucklehead? Yeah, Smith is athletic, but he is not what is needed to have this team get better.

cdash
08-11-2012, 01:28 PM
Before the season? Nah. Let's go into the year seeing what we have. I am sure as things progress with us and other teams around the league (injuries, etc.), new options will open up. I'm content to head into the season with what we have. We can always make more moves during the season. Anyone available at this point in free agency is a very replaceable player anyway.

imbtyler
08-11-2012, 01:28 PM
I think the Pacers are good as they stand currently. A pretty solid lineup, for the most part. Once they get on the court together, and start to see how actually "ready" Miles Plumlee is, as well as how our other players work together, then we can make some decisions. Though our wing rotation is comparatively young, I think there is enough level-headedness to make up for the lack of actual veteran experience. I'm really excited to see what this team can do, and the preseason cannot come early enough. I really hope our team is as good as I think they are. Granger may be right: we could be the #2 team in the East this year. Solid starting line-up intact, much better bench behind them. We're going to do big things this year.

ballism
08-11-2012, 01:38 PM
Keep an eye on Houston. They have around 20 players right now, and it seems like half of them are PFs. They'll have to waive or trade a number of them now that the Dwight trade option is gone. I'd offer next year's first for Patterson, but I don't think Rockets will go for that.

probably not. DC+pick should be more than enough though. they need a better backup/insurance at point. and DC fits their system.
oh wait.

joew8302
08-11-2012, 01:54 PM
Leandro Brabosa; we most certainly did not see his best.

I just do not agree with this at all. He was a very, very good player coming off the bench for us at the end of last season. He added much needed scoring off of the bench. He got injured before the playoffs and had trouble guarding Wade (who doesn't?) and now everyone thinks he is chopped liver.

He was a lot better/more valuable than some of you think IMO.

OlBlu
08-11-2012, 03:05 PM
I think the Pacers are good as they stand currently. A pretty solid lineup, for the most part. Once they get on the court together, and start to see how actually "ready" Miles Plumlee is, as well as how our other players work together, then we can make some decisions. Though our wing rotation is comparatively young, I think there is enough level-headedness to make up for the lack of actual veteran experience. I'm really excited to see what this team can do, and the preseason cannot come early enough. I really hope our team is as good as I think they are. Granger may be right: we could be the #2 team in the East this year. Solid starting line-up intact, much better bench behind them. We're going to do big things this year.

I guess that all depends on your definition of "good". If you mean they are good enough to make the playoffs as a 4-6 seed, then yes, they are good. If you mean they will challenge for the top two seeds, then, no, they are not that good. :cool: ...

Pace Maker
08-11-2012, 03:39 PM
You're saying we can't even challenge for the top 2 seeds? LOL

imbtyler
08-11-2012, 03:49 PM
I guess that all depends on your definition of "good". If you mean they are good enough to make the playoffs as a 4-6 seed, then yes, they are good. If you mean they will challenge for the top two seeds, then, no, they are not that good. :cool: ...

http://i49.tinypic.com/2qx5ez9.jpg

Yeh, they will compete for the top two seeds. Maybe third. Just like they did last year, when they weren't as good as they are this year. Derrick Rose is rumored to be out for the whole season. That, like MJ's run to baseball in the '90s, opens up a spot at the top of the East for either the Pacers or Heat to slip into. There is not a team better in the East who have the chemistry, youth, and potential we do. Even the Knicks, after getting Carmelo and Amar'e, were struggling to perform because they don't play well with each other.

Although, I'm not proclaiming any of this to argue with you, because I know you'll come back with some baseless statement that's only going to **** off myself and others here. I'm just stating my claim.

Sparhawk
08-11-2012, 04:11 PM
Tracy McGrady, Andray Blatche or Kenyon Martin. Any One of those guys would make total sense. Blatche especially. Pacers can turn this guy around, and Green especially can tell this guy that it's better to work your *** off in be in the NBA than playing in the NBDL. Pacers really need a PF that can challenge Hans for the backup spot. I'm tired of Hans getting so many free passes just because he's a first rounder and a guy like Lance doesn't get a fair shake (although Lance should get his chance this season).

Pendergraph has no talent. At least Blatche does and he'd be cheap, so low risk, high reward.

PaulGeorge
08-11-2012, 04:21 PM
I think we might as well sit on Tyler for the time being. I mean we did draft him so until we trade him or his contract runs out he is still here on the team. Personally I hope after a month or 2 a team will get frustrated with its line up and want to make a move. Maybe that team is Utah with Milsap or some other young athletic PF. Either way Tyler isn't a big fixture on this team unless he drastically alters his play as a backup.

CableKC
08-11-2012, 04:31 PM
at most we can sign some 1 year player that is willing to compete for 10 to 15 mpg at the wing spot....or some veteran Forward that would take the vet minimum while trying to babysit the youngins'. Since I don't see Granger being moved....nor have the assets to upgrade Hansbrough.....what we see now of our roster is what we will have going into the season.

OlBlu
08-11-2012, 05:29 PM
http://i49.tinypic.com/2qx5ez9.jpg

Yeh, they will compete for the top two seeds. Maybe third. Just like they did last year, when they weren't as good as they are this year. Derrick Rose is rumored to be out for the whole season. That, like MJ's run to baseball in the '90s, opens up a spot at the top of the East for either the Pacers or Heat to slip into. There is not a team better in the East who have the chemistry, youth, and potential we do. Even the Knicks, after getting Carmelo and Amar'e, were struggling to perform because they don't play well with each other.

Although, I'm not proclaiming any of this to argue with you, because I know you'll come back with some baseless statement that's only going to **** off myself and others here. I'm just stating my claim.

Well, lets break it down. Miami and Boston are clearly much better than the Pacers. I believe both NY teams will be better and have a better record than the Pacers. I think Philly adding Andrew Bynum may finish ahead of the NY teams. I think that has us competing for a 6-8 slot and I think that is about where we will come in. Management (not me) claimed they overperformed last year. The additions to the bench won't make a huge difference. I predicted 48-34 which is pretty good but probably fifth or sixth in the East. If the Pacers suffer a major injury (something they avoided last year) then missing the playoffs is not out of the question......... If that pisses you off, then you are just a homer whose bold talk means absolutely nothing because there is no basis for it. I have reasons for my taking a slightly less optomistic view. If they Pacers were going to compete for the two seed, they needed to upgrade a starter. I will admit this team is designed for a good regular season record but that means they are also designed to tumble in the playoffs rather quickly when stars start playing more minutes......:cool: ...

CompACE
08-11-2012, 05:57 PM
Well, lets break it down. Miami and Boston are clearly much better than the Pacers. I believe both NY teams will be better and have a better record than the Pacers. I think Philly adding Andrew Bynum may finish ahead of the NY teams. I think that has us competing for a 6-8 slot and I think that is about where we will come in. Management (not me) claimed they overperformed last year. The additions to the bench won't make a huge difference. I predicted 48-34 which is pretty good but probably fifth or sixth in the East. If the Pacers suffer a major injury (something they avoided last year) then missing the playoffs is not out of the question......... If that pisses you off, then you are just a homer whose bold talk means absolutely nothing because there is no basis for it. I have reasons for my taking a slightly less optomistic view. If they Pacers were going to compete for the two seed, they needed to upgrade a starter. I will admit this team is designed for a good regular season record but that means they are also designed to tumble in the playoffs rather quickly when stars start playing more minutes......:cool: ...

Yeah, God forbid a Pacers fan in a Pacers forum for being optimistic about the Pacers... We can't have that...

OlBlu
08-11-2012, 06:20 PM
Yeah, God forbid a Pacers fan in a Pacers forum for being optimistic about the Pacers... We can't have that...

I don't have any problem with it. Homers are homers and they don't pay attention to what other teams are doing or where their own team is weak. I am a fan, not a homer. I can see where the Pacers need work and I am watching several teams add significant starters who will move ahead of them. This isn't last year. The East is significantly stronger and the Pacers remained about the same, perhaps a little better on the bench. That translates into less wins and a lower seed in my view. But, it is just my view and I am glad their are avid fans who don't do any thinking at all, they just watch the games. There is nothing wrong with either one of us in that regard.....:cool: ...

Pacerized
08-11-2012, 06:35 PM
There just isn't anyone available who would really help this team. The time to make another move would have been before we signed Hill and Hibbert and the F.O. knew that Scola was available. At this point we need to see what we have and take advantage of any opportunity that makes sense before the trade deadline. A few teams may want to dump salary before the harsh taxes kick in next year.

QuickRelease
08-11-2012, 09:33 PM
Well, lets break it down. Miami and Boston are clearly much better than the Pacers. I believe both NY teams will be better and have a better record than the Pacers. I think Philly adding Andrew Bynum may finish ahead of the NY teams. I think that has us competing for a 6-8 slot and I think that is about where we will come in. Management (not me) claimed they overperformed last year. The additions to the bench won't make a huge difference. I predicted 48-34 which is pretty good but probably fifth or sixth in the East. If the Pacers suffer a major injury (something they avoided last year) then missing the playoffs is not out of the question......... If that pisses you off, then you are just a homer whose bold talk means absolutely nothing because there is no basis for it. I have reasons for my taking a slightly less optomistic view. If they Pacers were going to compete for the two seed, they needed to upgrade a starter. I will admit this team is designed for a good regular season record but that means they are also designed to tumble in the playoffs rather quickly when stars start playing more minutes......:cool: ...Man, I am just not that sure that Boston is so clear cut better than we are. I mean, they may be, but I don't think they totally outclass us by much, if at all.

Miller_time04
08-11-2012, 09:55 PM
Yes. Trade multiple draft picks and west for josh smith

Dislike X1000

I say keep is as is till the deadline or sign barbosa for cheap

vnzla81
08-11-2012, 09:56 PM
Rondo, Pierce and KG are better than anything the Pacers have, ad players like Green, Lee and their other players and they are better than the Pacers, maybe not regular season better but playoffs better for sure.


Rondo,Terry,Pierce,Bass and KG in the starting unit with Bradley, Lee, Green, Sullinger, Melo off the bench? No bad.

Tom White
08-11-2012, 09:58 PM
You're saying we can't even challenge for the top 2 seeds? LOL

He is very likely right. I wouldn't start laughing yet.

vnzla81
08-11-2012, 10:02 PM
I just do not agree with this at all. He was a very, very good player coming off the bench for us at the end of last season. He added much needed scoring off of the bench. He got injured before the playoffs and had trouble guarding Wade (who doesn't?) and now everyone thinks he is chopped liver.

He was a lot better/more valuable than some of you think IMO.

I agree Barbosa was great.

Ace E.Anderson
08-11-2012, 10:29 PM
I agree Barbosa was great.

Our additions of Augustin and Green, two players who thrive in transition, would only help Barbosa be more effective. He never found his groove with us offensively and was still close to a double digit scorer off the bench. At this point, we need as much firepower as possible to compete. Why not bring in a proven scorer off the bench?

jeffg-body
08-11-2012, 11:02 PM
I like us right now but if we can bring Barbosa back I think we'd be better off.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
08-12-2012, 01:35 AM
Yes

RLeWorm
08-12-2012, 01:39 AM
yes, if we want to try to compete for a championship if not, we don't have a chance against Miami or the lakers

MvPlumlee
08-12-2012, 06:18 AM
I don't think so.
I'm cool with starting the season with the players we have right now and give minutes to Stephenson, Hansbrough and Pendergraph, who all should be contributors this season. Plumlee should be semi-contributing as well. Why else would you draft a 24 year old rookie?
If we add another player, that's fine too, just don't think there are players left who can make a big difference.

Should the Pacers make another move to contend?
Yes, they do, but I feel like the opportunities will present themselves during the season when certain teams have become pessimistic about their playoffs chances and off course in the summer of 2013.

I would like us to add a player like Barbosa, only a better version this time.

imbtyler
08-12-2012, 06:25 AM
Well, lets break it down. Miami and Boston are clearly much better than the Pacers. I believe both NY teams will be better and have a better record than the Pacers. I think Philly adding Andrew Bynum may finish ahead of the NY teams. I think that has us competing for a 6-8 slot and I think that is about where we will come in. Management (not me) claimed they overperformed last year. The additions to the bench won't make a huge difference. I predicted 48-34 which is pretty good but probably fifth or sixth in the East. If the Pacers suffer a major injury (something they avoided last year) then missing the playoffs is not out of the question......... If that pisses you off, then you are just a homer whose bold talk means absolutely nothing because there is no basis for it. I have reasons for my taking a slightly less optomistic view. If they Pacers were going to compete for the two seed, they needed to upgrade a starter. I will admit this team is designed for a good regular season record but that means they are also designed to tumble in the playoffs rather quickly when stars start playing more minutes......:cool: ...

^^^ You see why I love this guy? I mean, we could all sit here and be logical and "sure" that the Pacers will suck balls, but then OlBlu would be out of a job. Actually, I remember when he was the voice of reason at one point (I call those the Dark Ages... they happened a couple months ago...)... But regardless, I'm well aware of how blind I am most of the time, and how most of my comments lack any basis; I can't stand to be down on the team, because they try a lot harder than I (ever) could. And sometimes, I would have plenty to be depressed about.

So if I think Augustin, Green, and Plumlee are all going to come in and dominate their respective back-up positions, so be it. I may have no evidence, but Augustin and Green both work well in transition, and Plumlee just needs a playing style to adapt to. And I may be a baseless homer to think, just because Paul George is younger than me, and only two full seasons deep in NBA experience, that his potential will NOT cap out already. Or for believing that this team (primarily the starters and returning bench) needed a full offseason with their coaching staff (and the current roster) to mesh, and now have that opportunity heading into one of the most anticipated NBA seasons I've ever personally witnessed.

Keep on trollin', Blu. I have a lot of faith in this team, and what they can do this season. And by this time in 2013, I'm not gonna care if I was wrong, so feel free to quote me... I'm gonna be more worried about the zombies...........:cool:....


Man, I am just not that sure that Boston is so clear cut better than we are. I mean, they may be, but I don't think they totally outclass us by much, if at all.

That's the thing with our new (yet unseen on court) team, and the rest in the NBA. There are a bunch of teams that look good on paper (and NBA 2K13), but...

(1) you never know what could happen during the season,
(2) there has been plenty of evidence of players not performing up to expectations after getting traded (Lamar Odom, Devin Harris, Stephen Jackson, most recently), and
(3) you never know what could happen during the season!! (Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, Al Horford, Jeff Green, Zach Randolph, Ricky Rubio, Brandon Roy, Greg Oden, LaMarcus Aldridge, ERIC FREAKING GORDON!!).

With all that said (and my homerism stated above), I think the point about this season is that anything could happen. Even without any players getting injured, we could take it to the Boston 3-1 this season, off sheer development, talent, hustle, and luck. Or beat the Knicks, Nets, Hawks, showing everyone up on the court. Jason Terry and Jared Sullinger could bust, and Courtney Lee could play just like he has (invisibly [11ppg in 30 mpg]); the Knicks could continue to show that Melo and Amar'e can't coexist, especially with Raymond Felton running the show; D-Will's overpaid co-stars of JJ, Crash, Kardashian, and Robin's brother only moderately scare me (if nothing else, our bench >>>> their bench).

See, isn't it fun to be homeristically optimistic?


I like us right now but if we can bring Barbosa back I think we'd be better off.

Yeh, thinking about it, I don't really have a problem bringing Barbosa back. I don't see why not. Throw him something short and cheap, in case we need to cut a space for a necessary, accessible piece by the trade or FA(?) deadlines.

PGisthefuture
08-12-2012, 07:21 AM
I really do not belive the Celtics are better than us this year and neither were they last year. I don't feel like Jason Terry is much of an upgrade at all over Ray Allen. Sure they deepened their big man depth, but I just don't see it.

The 76ers look to be improved, but Iguodala was a big part of what they did and Bynum is still kind of a question mark in this league. It will be interesting to see what he does as the main option. Time will tell how much they've improved.

The Nets are also a team that I think will not pan out like everyone thinks. They basically just added Joe Johnson and Brook Lopez is healthy, of course they will improve because they were one of the bottom-feeders of the league last year, but I think they are a 7-8 seed at best.

The Knicks are probably going to be the same old story. Talked about all year and hyped up because of off-season moves, but probably end up being a 4-5 seed at best.

The Hawks are a mystery at this point, they are looking like they got significantly worse, but they still have Horford and Smith so I think they'll be in there somewhere, but not towards the top.

The Bulls made some questionable off-season moves and without Derek Rose for most of the season I just don't see them contending for a top spot.

So to answer the question... I wouldn't mind a move if it is an obvious move that will make us better. I don't really wanna see us sign a guy just to sit at the end of the bench. I think the East is wide open this year and the only team that is going to be ahead of us for sure are the Heat.

D-BONE
08-12-2012, 08:36 AM
I just do not agree with this at all. He was a very, very good player coming off the bench for us at the end of last season. He added much needed scoring off of the bench. He got injured before the playoffs and had trouble guarding Wade (who doesn't?) and now everyone thinks he is chopped liver.

He was a lot better/more valuable than some of you think IMO.

I do agree that he helped down the stretch in regular season, but I'm not sure it makes me want him. back all that much. Very, very good player at this stage of his career? Don't think on a consistent basis. If they resigned for cheap, I would not be at all upset.

D-BONE
08-12-2012, 08:42 AM
As to the OP ?, certainly don't make a move to make a move. Preferably and add at this point somehow helps or improves. I'm not sure what's out there in the FA pool clearly does that, Barbosa included. So, I'd likely say keep spot open and hope to make a deal that truly does get a good piece.

However, if we must fill the last roster spot, I'm leaning towards Delfino. No, he's not a PF and I don't know how he'd get minutes, but I'd love to have a guy with his stroke around.

Swingman
08-12-2012, 11:16 AM
Rondo, Pierce and KG are better than anything the Pacers have, ad players like Green, Lee and their other players and they are better than the Pacers, maybe not regular season better but playoffs better for sure.


Rondo,Terry,Pierce,Bass and KG in the starting unit with Bradley, Lee, Green, Sullinger, Melo off the bench? No bad.

Pierce and KG WERE better than anything the Pacers have but not anymore. They're hardly in their primes.

Rondo may be but 1 player does not a team make. Pacers are deeper and should be better than Boston.

spazzxb
08-12-2012, 11:39 AM
do you think the Pacers should make an end of the bench move, I would like to get a decent Power Forward that can push Tyler for his spot.

Miles Plumblee will push Tyler.

Hicks
08-12-2012, 11:45 AM
I'd be fine with re-signing Barbosa for cheap. If we don't do that, I'm assuming we'll add a small forward.

DrFife
08-12-2012, 12:21 PM
Keep an eye on Houston. They have around 20 players right now, and it seems like half of them are PFs. They'll have to waive or trade a number of them now that the Dwight trade option is gone. I'd offer next year's first for Patterson, but I don't think Rockets will go for that.

I am really interested to see how things shake out in Houston. Will Marcus Morris and/or Royce White play SF, for example? Will Terrence Jones beat out Patrick Patterson? I think a young, quality 3-4 would fit our needs perfectly.

OlBlu
08-12-2012, 12:24 PM
Pierce and KG WERE better than anything the Pacers have but not anymore. They're hardly in their primes.

Rondo may be but 1 player does not a team make. Pacers are deeper and should be better than Boston.

Huh? Pierce and KG are better than anyone the Pacers have right now. The Pacers are not deeper. Look at Boston's draft, the players they picked up and the players they get back from injury. They are far deeper and better than the Pacers right now. Like LA, they start three or four players who are better than any player the Pacers have..... This has been the case and it will be the case this year. Boston got much BETTER in the off season. They have a far better coach who most people consider one of the best in the game. The Pacers added some slightly better bench players. Boston and it isn't close.....:cool: ...

wtelfair
08-12-2012, 12:46 PM
Tracy McGrady, Andray Blatche or Kenyon Martin. Any One of those guys would make total sense. Blatche especially. Pacers can turn this guy around, and Green especially can tell this guy that it's better to work your *** off in be in the NBA than playing in the NBDL. Pacers really need a PF that can challenge Hans for the backup spot. I'm tired of Hans getting so many free passes just because he's a first rounder and a guy like Lance doesn't get a fair shake (although Lance should get his chance this season).

Pendergraph has no talent. At least Blatche does and he'd be cheap, so low risk, high reward.

Thank God your're not the GM for this team.

1984
08-12-2012, 05:21 PM
I just do not agree with this at all. He was a very, very good player coming off the bench for us at the end of last season. He added much needed scoring off of the bench. He got injured before the playoffs and had trouble guarding Wade (who doesn't?) and now everyone thinks he is chopped liver.

He was a lot better/more valuable than some of you think IMO.

What? Read what I wrote again. We did not see Leandro Barbosa's best, and how could we? After all, Leandro Barbosa did not have training camp with this season and he was injured during the playoffs. However, Leandro Barbosa was a good player. If he was good while playing with a disadvantage, how could we not expect him to be better? I think Leandro Barbosa should be re-signed.

Swingman
08-12-2012, 06:15 PM
Huh? Pierce and KG are better than anyone the Pacers have right now. The Pacers are not deeper. Look at Boston's draft, the players they picked up and the players they get back from injury. They are far deeper and better than the Pacers right now. Like LA, they start three or four players who are better than any player the Pacers have..... This has been the case and it will be the case this year. Boston got much BETTER in the off season. They have a far better coach who most people consider one of the best in the game. The Pacers added some slightly better bench players. Boston and it isn't close.....:cool: ...

sure whatever..this coming from the person that thought Luck was a bad pick.

OlBlu
08-12-2012, 06:22 PM
sure whatever..this coming from the person that thought Luck was a bad pick.

I never thought Luck was a bad pick and I didn't say that. I did say that I thought RG3 might be the better QB. I still think that is possible but Luck looked damned good today even if it was a preseason game. I don't know how really bad the Rams are. I also said our best bet for a quick return to the SB would be to keep Peyton and use the draft and free agency to shore up the team around him. I still believe that is true. I have been more worried about the OL protecting him and I saw problems there today but he scrambled and got the ball off quickly to make up for it. He is going to have to do a lot of that....:cool: ...

D-BONE
08-12-2012, 07:45 PM
I'd say Pierce is marginally better than Granger, who I don't consider more than a solid NBA player. Garnett v. West is probably about a wash. Perhaps a slight nod to KG for better overall D and boards. But, the real difference between us and Boston is flat out R. Rondo. They have him and we don't.

OlBlu
08-12-2012, 07:57 PM
I'd say Pierce is marginally better than Granger, who I don't consider more than a solid NBA player. Garnett v. West is probably about a wash. Perhaps a slight nod to KG for better overall D and boards. But, the real difference between us and Boston is flat out R. Rondo. They have him and we don't.

What? Granger would not be allowed to carry Pierce's jock. The difference is between a decent starter and a perenial all star. Garnet versus West is even more lopsided. Garnett would clamp West down and West could do nothing on defense to slow KG. Both of Boston's players at those positions are on a completely different level than their counterparts on the Pacers. It is fun to think those thing but please try to keep some commonsense about it.......:cool: ...

D-BONE
08-12-2012, 08:03 PM
What? Granger would not be allowed to carry Pierce's jock. The difference is between a decent starter and a perenial all star. Garnet versus West is even more lopsided. Garnett would clamp West down and West could do nothing on defense to slow KG. Both of Boston's players at those positions are on a completely different level than their counterparts on the Pacers. It is fun to think those thing but please try to keep some commonsense about it.......:cool: ...

Maybe, but Rondo is still the man that makes the Celtics go at this point. He is the team leader an best player. In the losses to Miami Pierce looked pedestrian, much like Granger. No doubt Pierce is well above Granger over - likewise Garnett over West - if you look at their entire careers. My comparison is based on how I see them all currently. And I'd still say the Cs are better than us until we prove otherwise.

OlBlu
08-12-2012, 08:09 PM
Maybe, but Rondo is still the man that makes the Celtics go at this point. He is the team leader an best player. In the losses to Miami Pierce looked pedestrian, much like Granger. No doubt Pierce is well above Granger over - likewise Garnett over West - if you look at their entire careers. My comparison is based on how I see them all currently. And I'd still say the Cs are better than us until we prove otherwise.

There is almost as much difference between Granger and Pierce as there is from Pierce to LBJ. Not quite but a reasonable comparison. Danny is no star and Pierce and KG still are stars. The Celtics are MUCH better than the Pacers. It really isn't close. I would pick the Pacers to win one game against them in a playoff series and no more than that. :cool: ...

D-BONE
08-12-2012, 08:17 PM
So how bout you just agree with something I say? Didn't I just say I consider the Celts better? That would mean I would favor them to beat us in a playoff series. The Pacers have a lot to prove before they can move beyond Celts in terms of deep playoff potential. I think it will be very difficult to move beyond them in a head to head series, particularly due to the fact we have no answer for Rondo. But those other guys are important factors too.

Ace E.Anderson
08-12-2012, 08:18 PM
I'd say Pierce is marginally better than Granger, who I don't consider more than a solid NBA player. Garnett v. West is probably about a wash. Perhaps a slight nod to KG for better overall D and boards. But, the real difference between us and Boston is flat out R. Rondo. They have him and we don't.

Who knew that just solid NBA players would average 18+ points in their career.

D-BONE
08-12-2012, 08:24 PM
Granger is overrated by some on this board. He's a solid player who deserved his one AS appearance, but, IMO, a one-time AS is not enough to merit definitive enshrinement in the pantheon of star players. He is a somewhat above - average NBA player for his career. Multiple AS appearances are required before we get into star or superstar territory. Additionally, leading one's team to conference finals and/or finals wouldn't hurt.

So, I appreciate and recognize what he's done during a frustrating period of Pacers NBA hoops. But my feeling is that if he's the top dog on our team, we won't be legit deep playoff contenders. He is probably best suited to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship contender.

Jayday00
08-12-2012, 08:37 PM
I see the Celtics as a really SMALL team.. Our back court is going to give them A LOT of problems! I too don't see the Celtics as much better than us...

One thing that I think is vital to us, is the fact that we have our main set of guys ALL back again, they're all close friends, and they're all still YOUNG and IMPROVING.. Our boys are HUNGRY, they got that taste last year, and they're gonna continue to grow.. WE have a great team guys.. We should be very proud of what we have here..

Teams like BROOKLYN, are going to be a good up and coming team, but I really dont think they can mess with our unison..

A lot of teams have the problem of losing a key player- and they're SCREWED! we have a healthy team, and we're very deep. We can play through whatever injury bugs come our way.. We are going to be a GREAT regular season team.. These East is vastily improved- but so are we.. We're going to be competitive and that's all we can ask for..

It's obvious no one is messing with LAKERS VS HEAT in the finals this year (unless there is injuries).. But I know I'll have fun watching this team IMPROVE, and continue to GROW together.. I'm just excited to see the growth.. I really wanna see what everyone is doing this off season!

OlBlu
08-12-2012, 09:03 PM
Who knew that just solid NBA players would average 18+ points in their career, while also being selected to an Olympic team and all star game.

Granger was never on the Olympic team...... :cool: ... He was on the World Championship team and rode the pine because Coach K wouldn't let him near the court because he is a lousy defender. He is basically a spot of three point shooter and that is all he is. He doesn't get many assists because when he gets the ball, it is going up. He can't move with the ball, he is a less than adequate rebounder and he still is a lousy defender and all though he goes through the motions of putting more effort into it, he basically coasts on that end of the floor. Granger is the second most overrated player (by fans) in Pacers history......:cool: ... That, of course, is my opinion after watching him for years and years.....

OlBlu
08-12-2012, 09:04 PM
There is almost as much difference between Granger and Pierce as there is from Pierce to LBJ. Not quite but a reasonable comparison. Danny is no star and Pierce and KG still are stars. The Celtics are MUCH better than the Pacers. It really isn't close. I would pick the Pacers to win one game against them in a playoff series and no more than that. :cool: ...

I thanked you for both posts.......:cool: ...

Ace E.Anderson
08-12-2012, 10:08 PM
Granger is overrated by some on this board. He's a solid player who deserved his one AS appearance, but, IMO, a one-time AS is not enough to merit definitive enshrinement in the pantheon of star players. He is a somewhat above - average NBA player for his career. Multiple AS appearances are required before we get into star or superstar territory. Additionally, leading one's team to conference finals and/or finals wouldn't hurt.

So, I appreciate and recognize what he's done during a frustrating period of Pacers NBA hoops. But my feeling is that if he's the top dog on our team, we won't be legit deep playoff contenders. He is probably best suited to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship contender.

I agree with the last part of your post 100%. But there is a big difference (in my opinion) between an average NBA player and a good NBA player. I'm not saying he's a star, and definitely not an All-Star. But he's far from a "solid" or average NBA starter. Anybody who is in the top 50-60 players in the league, that's a little more than solid.....at least in my opinion

Ace E.Anderson
08-12-2012, 10:15 PM
Granger was never on the Olympic team...... :cool: ... He was on the World Championship team and rode the pine because Coach K wouldn't let him near the court because he is a lousy defender. He is basically a spot of three point shooter and that is all he is. He doesn't get many assists because when he gets the ball, it is going up. He can't move with the ball, he is a less than adequate rebounder and he still is a lousy defender and all though he goes through the motions of putting more effort into it, he basically coasts on that end of the floor. Granger is the second most overrated player (by fans) in Pacers history......:cool: ... That, of course, is my opinion after watching him for years and years.....

I know you have your negative opinions of DG, so I wont even try to change them. All I can say is a player can't average over 18 ppg in his career by being ONLY a spot 3-pt shooter. Steve Kerr, Kyle Korver, Steve Novak..those are spot 3-pt shooters . But a guy who's averaged close to 20 points a game in his career is a little more than a spot 3-pt shooter. A volume scorer? Maybe. No he's not a superstar, or even a star really. But you don't become the 2nd leading scorer in the HISTORY of an NBA franchise by being only a spot 3 pt shooter. Thats just my opinion.

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 12:34 AM
SOMEONE has to balance out the old man's obvious anti-anything-Indiana bias. I call BS and loudly state that the Pacers are better than the Celtics and will finish with a better record than them AGAIN this year.....*stupid sunglass smiley icon*

Goyle
08-13-2012, 12:48 AM
There is almost as much difference between Granger and Pierce as there is from Pierce to LBJ. Not quite but a reasonable comparison. Danny is no star and Pierce and KG still are stars. The Celtics are MUCH better than the Pacers. It really isn't close. I would pick the Pacers to win one game against them in a playoff series and no more than that. :cool: ...

That's weird, 'cause last I checked Granger was a better player than LBJ. :cool: ...

cgg
08-13-2012, 01:50 AM
:cool:
:cool2:

Heisenberg
08-13-2012, 04:00 AM
Not really. I'd be a big fan of signing Kenyon Martin, but doesn't seem like that's likely. K-Mart only drinks strawberry milk. Not like he's still able to shut down longer wings and give stout defense on the block or anything. I mean hell, who wants Roy to be able to take his eyes off the ball for a split second when it's getting swung around the perimeter?

I have nothing at all against Mahinmi. But he better be a MAJOR cog, starting immediately.

QuickRelease
08-13-2012, 08:40 AM
Rondo, Pierce and KG are better than anything the Pacers have, ad players like Green, Lee and their other players and they are better than the Pacers, maybe not regular season better but playoffs better for sure.


Rondo,Terry,Pierce,Bass and KG in the starting unit with Bradley, Lee, Green, Sullinger, Melo off the bench? No bad.Oh yeah, I forgot about JET signing with them. Yeah, they're still going to be good. The big thing is Rondo. But KG has got to slow down eventually, right? We can still run with them.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 09:24 AM
I know you have your negative opinions of DG, so I wont even try to change them. All I can say is a player can't average over 18 ppg in his career by being ONLY a spot 3-pt shooter. Steve Kerr, Kyle Korver, Steve Novak..those are spot 3-pt shooters . But a guy who's averaged close to 20 points a game in his career is a little more than a spot 3-pt shooter. A volume scorer? Maybe. No he's not a superstar, or even a star really. But you don't become the 2nd leading scorer in the HISTORY of an NBA franchise by being only a spot 3 pt shooter. Thats just my opinion.

Iverson averaged over 20ppg for his career and many here think is garbage, somebody has to average big numbers on an NBA team and on the Pacers case Danny has been that guy.

BillS
08-13-2012, 09:40 AM
Iverson averaged over 20ppg for his career and many here think is garbage, somebody has to average big numbers on an NBA team and on the Pacers case Danny has been that guy.

Who ever said Iverson was garbage on the floor, at least before he was a career tail-ender? The objections here have been to his attitude, not his playing ability.

Ace E.Anderson
08-13-2012, 09:58 AM
Iverson averaged over 20ppg for his career and many here think is garbage, somebody has to average big numbers on an NBA team and on the Pacers case Danny has been that guy.

Allen Iverson was garbage?! Oh wow....

While I agree that somebody has to average numbers on a team, not EVERYBODY can average 20ppg. No matter how bad the team is.

EDIT: for someone that thinks Monta Ellis is a very good player, its almost blasphemous to call Iverson garbage when they are essentially the same player..the only difference? Iverson actually played, and played well, in the playoffs...

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 10:01 AM
:cool:
:cool2:

Hey!! :cool: ...

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 10:04 AM
SOMEONE has to balance out the old man's obvious anti-anything-Indiana bias. I call BS and loudly state that the Pacers are better than the Celtics and will finish with a better record than them AGAIN this year.....*stupid sunglass smiley icon*

Balance away but the Pacers are not even close to being the Celtics and even if they did have a better season record, the Celtics would quickly send them home in the playoffs. You don't get it, the Celtics improved a lot in the draft and with deals they made. The Pacers only added some bench strength. The result is the Celtics are better than the Pacers. But I will give you a pass for your youth as an excuse for your lack of knowledge.....:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 10:06 AM
I know you have your negative opinions of DG, so I wont even try to change them. All I can say is a player can't average over 18 ppg in his career by being ONLY a spot 3-pt shooter. Steve Kerr, Kyle Korver, Steve Novak..those are spot 3-pt shooters . But a guy who's averaged close to 20 points a game in his career is a little more than a spot 3-pt shooter. A volume scorer? Maybe. No he's not a superstar, or even a star really. But you don't become the 2nd leading scorer in the HISTORY of an NBA franchise by being only a spot 3 pt shooter. Thats just my opinion.

Oh? Who is the leading scorer for the Pacers? Reggie Miller. Say wasn't he a three point shooter too only a lot better at it than Granger? :cool: ...

spazzxb
08-13-2012, 10:10 AM
Balance away but the Pacers are not even close to being the Celtics and even if they did have a better season record, the Celtics would quickly send them home in the playoffs. You don't get it, the Celtics improved a lot in the draft and with deals they made. The Pacers only added some bench strength. The result is the Celtics are better than the Pacers. But I will give you a pass for your youth as an excuse for your lack of knowledge.....:cool: ...

You think loosing ray Allen for Courtney Lee and jason terry is a big improvement? Weren't you the one predicting lottery last year? Didn't you get tired of being wrong all the time? Should we give you a pass for diminished brain capacity?(you took the first age shot.

billbradley
08-13-2012, 10:11 AM
Oh? Who is the leading scorer for the Pacers? Reggie Miller. Say wasn't he a three point shooter too only a lot better at it than Granger? :cool: ...

Every year Reggie average 20 or more points a game, he also average more points from free throws than 3s.

Ace E.Anderson
08-13-2012, 10:23 AM
Oh? Who is the leading scorer for the Pacers? Reggie Miller. Say wasn't he a three point shooter too only a lot better at it than Granger? :cool: ...

There's a big difference between a 3pt shooter, and a SPOT 3pt shooter. When I hear SPOT 3pt shooter I think of someone who is simply out there to spread the floor for other players. They are SPOTTING UP in an area waiting to receive a pass from a post player or off a drive and kick. They aren't really able to score in other ways and certainly aren't your main threats offensively.

Reggie, Ray Allen, those types of players aren't spot 3pt shooters. They move around screens, and at times they can even create their own offense by driving the lane or simply pulling up from mid range. You can focus your offensive attack around those players, you don't create your offense around a player whose sole purpose is to stand in the corner and knock down wide open 3s when they come--ya know, kinda how SPOT 3pt shooters are supposed to do

J7F
08-13-2012, 10:45 AM
Iverson averaged over 20ppg for his career and many here think is garbage, somebody has to average big numbers on an NBA team and on the Pacers case Danny has been that guy.
What does that have to do with your claim that Danny is only a spot up 3 shooter? You are side stepping again...

And Iverson was garbage for his last 4 or 5 seasons... He was near unstoppable before that...

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 10:52 AM
Balance away but the Pacers are not even close to being the Celtics and even if they did have a better season record, the Celtics would quickly send them home in the playoffs. You don't get it, the Celtics improved a lot in the draft and with deals they made. The Pacers only added some bench strength. The result is the Celtics are better than the Pacers. But I will give you a pass for your youth as an excuse for your lack of knowledge.....:cool: ...

We were better than the Celtics last year. They had the best 3 point shooter of all time last year and now they don't. Their rookies are not going to help them as much as you think they are this year...Rookies usually don't. Our starting 5, as a unit, was better than the Celtics starting 5 last year. Adding Jet, a decent player on offense, but not so much defensively does not automatically leap frog them ahead of the Pacers. Let's watch him guard OUR 2.....You, as always, are selling the Pacers short. Where is your evidence that the Celtics are sooo much better? If their roster is sooo better and their coach is soo much better, with 1 foot in the Hall of Fame, WHY WEREN'T THEY BETTER LAST YEAR? Last I checked, they didn't add Kobe or LaBron to their roster. What makes you think they are better? I guess if you can excuse my youth (I am 41, btw), then I can excuse your senility.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 11:41 AM
We were better than the Celtics last year. They had the best 3 point shooter of all time last year and now they don't. Their rookies are not going to help them as much as you think they are this year...Rookies usually don't. Our starting 5, as a unit, was better than the Celtics starting 5 last year. Adding Jet, a decent player on offense, but not so much defensively does not automatically leap frog them ahead of the Pacers. Let's watch him guard OUR 2.....You, as always, are selling the Pacers short. Where is your evidence that the Celtics are sooo much better? If their roster is sooo better and their coach is soo much better, with 1 foot in the Hall of Fame, WHY WEREN'T THEY BETTER LAST YEAR? Last I checked, they didn't add Kobe or LaBron to their roster. What makes you think they are better? I guess if you can excuse my youth (I am 41, btw), then I can excuse your senility.

Our starting five was better than the Celtics? What are you smoking. They have three players who are better than anyone the Pacers have. We were not better than the Celtics last year. Yes, we had a better in season record but when the playoffs came, the Celtics stars made them by far the better team. Allen left but they signed a couple of very good players and one of them is better right now that Allen is. They get a couple of important players back from injury. My evidence is that the Celtics took the Heat to seven games and played well when the Heat had Bosh. We won two games from them when Bosh was out and they had to adjust. When they made that adjustment, the Pacers were toast. I do excuse your youth and in my world, 41 is young. The Celtics are the second best team in the East. The Pacers maybe down to six or seven. I rate Miami, Boston, both NY teams and Philly ahead of them with the aquisition of Bynum who is now the best center in the East. The Pacers chose to only add a few bench players who are only marginally better than what they already had. That means they didn't get any better and before you give me the line that they will improve, I only see room for real improvement in George. West may even decline. Hibbert might improve a bit but what you see is what you will get. The draft choice may turn out to be good but I don't think Plumlee will add a lot to this team next year. I am not selling the Pacers short. The teams I rate ahead of them made significant additions and got significant injured players back. I picked the Pacers to be 48-34. They could be a couple of games better or a couple of games worse. If they have a major injury, they might struggle to get to the playoffs at all... I, like you, am hoping for the best but they had a very fortunate year and they are not likely to be free of injuries again. A big injury to any of the teams I mentioned could move them up a notch but right now, I see them as a six through eight seed. :cool: ...

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 11:43 AM
What does that have to do with your claim that Danny is only a spot up 3 shooter? You are side stepping again...

And Iverson was garbage for his last 4 or 5 seasons... He was near unstoppable before that...

Granger is a spot of three point shooter. He can't drive to the hoop. Our all time leading scorer was also a three point specialist...... I was never an Iverson fan but the guy could play. When he lost a step, he couldn't play any more....:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 11:46 AM
There's a big difference between a 3pt shooter, and a SPOT 3pt shooter. When I hear SPOT 3pt shooter I think of someone who is simply out there to spread the floor for other players. They are SPOTTING UP in an area waiting to receive a pass from a post player or off a drive and kick. They aren't really able to score in other ways and certainly aren't your main threats offensively.

Reggie, Ray Allen, those types of players aren't spot 3pt shooters. They move around screens, and at times they can even create their own offense by driving the lane or simply pulling up from mid range. You can focus your offensive attack around those players, you don't create your offense around a player whose sole purpose is to stand in the corner and knock down wide open 3s when they come--ya know, kinda how SPOT 3pt shooters are supposed to do

I think Granger spends almost all of his time on offense lurking out in three point land like the players you describe. I agree that Reggie was not a spot up three point shooter and that is why I labled him differently. Granger can't drive with the ball because he is a lousy ball handler. He doesn't post up. He sits out in three point land waiting to chuck it. That, fits your definition of a spot up three point shooter. He just happens to be a forward and taller than the ones you mentioned.....:cool: ...

Ace E.Anderson
08-13-2012, 12:14 PM
I think Granger spends almost all of his time on offense lurking out in three point land like the players you describe. I agree that Reggie was not a spot up three point shooter and that is why I labled him differently. Granger can't drive with the ball because he is a lousy ball handler. He doesn't post up. He sits out in three point land waiting to chuck it. That, fits your definition of a spot up three point shooter. He just happens to be a forward and taller than the ones you mentioned.....:cool: ...


You don't watch very many pacer games, OR we just don't see the same player. I'll explain:

Last year in 33 minutes per game Danny took about 15 FGA a game. Of Danny's 15 FGA/gm, only 5 of them were 3's. That's not even half of his FGA's!!. That mean's there were 10 more shots within the game where he either got a mid range J, or a layup of some sort. So that dissolves your notion of he just "camps at the 3pt line waiting to chuck it".

Also...

Danny averaged 5 FTA/gm as well. No that's not as many as other great scorers, but for a player that doesn't go inside nor post up, as you claim, that's pretty significant. When you compare this number to players on a similar level as Danny (Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, Rudy Gay, and Joe Johnson.) you'll see that his FTA/gm are HIGHER than all 4 of those players...while playing less minutes no less. Are these guys spot up 3 pt shooters? No they aren't. Yet their 3pt FGA are roughly the same (minus Gay and Iggy who aren't very good 3pt shooters anyway), and their FTA are lower. That doesn't make sense....

I get that you don't think DG is good or whatever, but you don't have facts to prove your case. You're only using your opinion.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 12:22 PM
You don't watch very many pacer games, OR we just don't see the same player. I'll explain:

Last year in 33 minutes per game Danny took about 15 FGA a game. Of Danny's 15 FGA/gm, only 5 of them were 3's. That's not even half of his FGA's!!. That mean's there were 10 more shots within the game where he either got a mid range J, or a layup of some sort. So that dissolves your notion of he just "camps at the 3pt line waiting to chuck it".

Also...

Danny averaged 5 FTA/gm as well. No that's not as many as other great scorers, but for a player that doesn't go inside nor post up, as you claim, that's pretty significant. When you compare this number to players on a similar level as Danny (Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, Rudy Gay, and Joe Johnson.) you'll see that his FTA/gm are HIGHER than all 4 of those players...while playing less minutes no less. Are these guys spot up 3 pt shooters? No they aren't. Yet their 3pt FGA are roughly the same (minus Gay and Iggy who aren't very good 3pt shooters anyway), and their FTA are lower. That doesn't make sense....

I get that you don't think DG is good or whatever, but you don't have facts to prove your case. You're only using your opinion.


DG is a SF. One third of his shots are threes. That is a high percentage for that position. Yes, I do watch games and I continually see him camped out in three point land waiting for a pass. Many of his other shots come from within a step of that area. You own argument proves my point. DG doesn't get fouled as often as a star at his position would. The reason for that is that he is camped out and not driving to the hoop because he can't. He is shy of contact inside and very rarely posts up. You believe whatever you want but DG is definitely a post up three point shooter. He is also a mediocre rebounder for his position (especially on the offensive end) because he doesn't play inside. I haven't said that DG is not good. I have said that he is the second most overrated Pacer in history. That doesn't mean that he isn't the best player we have now. I have not been an advocate of trading him for a spare tire but only if it was something really good for the Pacers. I think PG will eventually be the SF and we will be a better team when that happens..... By the way, DG is not even close to being on the same level as the players you mention..... :cool: ...

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 12:25 PM
Our starting five was better than the Celtics? What are you smoking. They have three players who are better than anyone the Pacers have. We were not better than the Celtics last year. Yes, we had a better in season record but when the playoffs came, the Celtics stars made them by far the better team. Allen left but they signed a couple of very good players and one of them is better right now that Allen is. They get a couple of important players back from injury. My evidence is that the Celtics took the Heat to seven games and played well when the Heat had Bosh. We won two games from them when Bosh was out and they had to adjust. When they made that adjustment, the Pacers were toast. I do excuse your youth and in my world, 41 is young. The Celtics are the second best team in the East. The Pacers maybe down to six or seven. I rate Miami, Boston, both NY teams and Philly ahead of them with the aquisition of Bynum who is now the best center in the East. The Pacers chose to only add a few bench players who are only marginally better than what they already had. That means they didn't get any better and before you give me the line that they will improve, I only see room for real improvement in George. West may even decline. Hibbert might improve a bit but what you see is what you will get. The draft choice may turn out to be good but I don't think Plumlee will add a lot to this team next year. I am not selling the Pacers short. The teams I rate ahead of them made significant additions and got significant injured players back. I picked the Pacers to be 48-34. They could be a couple of games better or a couple of games worse. If they have a major injury, they might struggle to get to the playoffs at all... I, like you, am hoping for the best but they had a very fortunate year and they are not likely to be free of injuries again. A big injury to any of the teams I mentioned could move them up a notch but right now, I see them as a six through eight seed. :cool: ...

I don't smoke anything. The numbers speak for themselves on our starting 5 compared to theirs. What alternative Universe do you live in? As I stated, our 5 AS A UNIT, were better than the Celtics. I think we would have beaten the Celtics last year in the playoffs had we met them. They barely got by Philly. As far as Philly jumping ahead of us, they got stronger at the 5 but weaker on the wings. They lost an Olympian. Why do you discount that fact? Bynum, the best 5 in the East? Hardly. He is fragile both physically and mentally and, mark my words, will not flourish as the #1 go-to option. We kept our SUPERIOR starting 5 intact and shed some dead weight, while adding athleticism. In other words, we got better. We were better than them last year and we will be better than them this year. I think you argue just for argue's sake sometimes. I don't believe in ignoring people on forums, but man you are trying my patience. I give you reasons why I feel we are better and you claim I am smoking something. Ridiculous......*again...stupid sunglass smiley icon*

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 12:27 PM
DG is a SF. One third of his shots are threes. That is a high percentage for that position. Yes, I do watch games and I continually see him camped out in three point land waiting for a pass. Many of his other shots come from within a step of that area. You own argument proves my point. DG doesn't get fouled as often as a star at his position would. The reason for that is that he is camped out and not driving to the hoop because he can't. He is shy of contact inside and very rarely posts up. You believe whatever you want but DG is definitely a post up three point shooter. He is also a mediocre rebounder for his position (especially on the offensive end) because he doesn't play inside. I haven't said that DG is not good. I have said that he is the second most overrated Pacer in history. That doesn't mean that he isn't the best player we have now. I have not been an advocate of trading him for a spare tire but only if it was something really good for the Pacers. I think PG will eventually be the SF and we will be a better team when that happens..... By the way, DG is not even close to being on the same level as the players you mention..... :cool: ...

Now you are just trolling....give me a break, man. Why are you even here? I'm out.....

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 12:31 PM
Now you are just trolling....give me a break, man. Why are you even here? I'm out.....

I am not trolling. I just disagree with you and I am right, about DG not being on the level of the SFs you mention. I would trade him in a heart beat for any of them. I would throw in draft choices or other players too. I don't think you find any of these teams interested in trading one of those players for Granger unless we threw in a lot. Why are you here if you cannot take a realistic view of the team and its players. :cool: ...

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 12:31 PM
Who ever said Iverson was garbage on the floor, at least before he was a career tail-ender? The objections here have been to his attitude, not his playing ability.

At least two post before this one call him garbage at the end of his career when he was still putting big numbers.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 12:35 PM
We were better than the Celtics last year. They had the best 3 point shooter of all time last year and now they don't. Their rookies are not going to help them as much as you think they are this year...Rookies usually don't. Our starting 5, as a unit, was better than the Celtics starting 5 last year. Adding Jet, a decent player on offense, but not so much defensively does not automatically leap frog them ahead of the Pacers. Let's watch him guard OUR 2.....You, as always, are selling the Pacers short. Where is your evidence that the Celtics are sooo much better? If their roster is sooo better and their coach is soo much better, with 1 foot in the Hall of Fame, WHY WEREN'T THEY BETTER LAST YEAR? Last I checked, they didn't add Kobe or LaBron to their roster. What makes you think they are better? I guess if you can excuse my youth (I am 41, btw), then I can excuse your senility.

So how Boston took Miami to 7 games if they are not as good as the Pacers?

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 12:35 PM
You don't watch very many pacer games, OR we just don't see the same player. I'll explain:

Last year in 33 minutes per game Danny took about 15 FGA a game. Of Danny's 15 FGA/gm, only 5 of them were 3's. That's not even half of his FGA's!!. That mean's there were 10 more shots within the game where he either got a mid range J, or a layup of some sort. So that dissolves your notion of he just "camps at the 3pt line waiting to chuck it".

Also...

I am curious. Would anyone on the board trade DG for

Danny averaged 5 FTA/gm as well. No that's not as many as other great scorers, but for a player that doesn't go inside nor post up, as you claim, that's pretty significant. When you compare this number to players on a similar level as Danny (Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, Rudy Gay, and Joe Johnson.) you'll see that his FTA/gm are HIGHER than all 4 of those players...while playing less minutes no less. Are these guys spot up 3 pt shooters? No they aren't. Yet their 3pt FGA are roughly the same (minus Gay and Iggy who aren't very good 3pt shooters anyway), and their FTA are lower. That doesn't make sense....

I get that you don't think DG is good or whatever, but you don't have facts to prove your case. You're only using your opinion.

I think you may be on to something. How many on this forum would trade DG for Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, Rudy Gay, or Joe Johnson? How many would throw in players or picks to make that deal? How many would not trade DG for any of these players or which ones would you not be interested in? Would any of the teams that have these players be willing to trade one of them for DG? Let me know what you think........:cool: ...

Ace E.Anderson
08-13-2012, 12:37 PM
DG is a SF. One third of his shots are threes. That is a high percentage for that position. Yes, I do watch games and I continually see him camped out in three point land waiting for a pass. Many of his other shots come from within a step of that area. You own argument proves my point. DG doesn't get fouled as often as a star at his position would. The reason for that is that he is camped out and not driving to the hoop because he can't. He is shy of contact inside and very rarely posts up. You believe whatever you want but DG is definitely a post up three point shooter. He is also a mediocre rebounder for his position (especially on the offensive end) because he doesn't play inside. I haven't said that DG is not good. I have said that he is the second most overrated Pacer in history. That doesn't mean that he isn't the best player we have now. I have not been an advocate of trading him for a spare tire but only if it was something really good for the Pacers. I think PG will eventually be the SF and we will be a better team when that happens..... By the way, DG is not even close to being on the same level as the players you mention..... :cool: ...

Lol so let me get this straight...
If Danny isn't on the same level as the players I mentioned (your words, not mine), why would anyone expect him to get fouled as often as a "star at his position would"? (again--your words, not mine)
My Point: If he's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being on the same level as these other players, then we shouldn't expect him to be fouled at a higher rate than the other players I mentioned, because again in your words, he isn't as good as them.

YET...... HE GET'S FOULED AT A HIGHER RATE THAN THEY DO! And has throughout his career. How does a player have the same number of 3pt FGA, but more FTA as another player, yet one is considered a spot up 3pt shooter(the one with higher FTA/gm nonetheless), and the other isnt? IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!

You bringing up the fact that he's a mediocre rebounder and whatever else is irrelevant to the argument that he's more than a spot up 3 pt shooter. A 3rd of someone's shots being taken behind the 3pt line doesn't make someone a spot up 3pt shooter whether you're a SF or a 2-guard (virtually the same in a lot of systems in the NBA)

Ace E.Anderson
08-13-2012, 12:44 PM
I think you may be on to something. How many on this forum would trade DG for Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, Rudy Gay, or Joe Johnson? How many would throw in players or picks to make that deal? How many would not trade DG for any of these players or which ones would you not be interested in? Would any of the teams that have these players be willing to trade one of them for DG? Let me know what you think........:cool: ...

Deng nor Andre can't score better than Danny, so I'm good. Johnson is ridiculously overpaid, and is basically Danny Granger with a better handle and lazier attitude. I myself would trade Danny for Rudy Gay, only because Rudy is younger and more athletic. But they have virtually been the same player their whole career's as well.

You could easily post a poll to see who would trade whom for what. But it doesn't matter. We're fans. Would any of these GM's trade any of these players for one another? Probably not. Know why? Because they're virtually THE SAME LEVEL OF PLAYER, just with different strengths and weaknesses. None are superstars, or even annual all-stars.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Deng nor Andre can't score better than Danny, so I'm good. Johnson is ridiculously overpaid, and is basically Danny Granger with a better handle and lazier attitude. I myself would trade Danny for Rudy Gay, only because Rudy is younger and more athletic. But they have virtually been the same player their whole career's as well.

You could easily post a poll to see who would trade whom for what. But it doesn't matter. We're fans. Would any of these GM's trade any of these players for one another? Probably not. Know why? Because they're virtually THE SAME LEVEL OF PLAYER, just with different strengths and weaknesses. None are superstars, or even annual all-stars.

Thank you for your opinion.....:cool: ...

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 12:51 PM
Deng nor Andre can't score better than Danny, so I'm good. Johnson is ridiculously overpaid, and is basically Danny Granger with a better handle and lazier attitude. I myself would trade Danny for Rudy Gay, only because Rudy is younger and more athletic. But they have virtually been the same player their whole career's as well.

You could easily post a poll to see who would trade whom for what. But it doesn't matter. We're fans. Would any of these GM's trade any of these players for one another? Probably not. Know why? Because they're virtually THE SAME LEVEL OF PLAYER, just with different strengths and weaknesses. None are superstars, or even annual all-stars.

Joe Jhonson is not basically Danny Granger, people talk crap about JJ because of his salary but the fact is that JJ is one of the best small guards in the game, probably top 3, he is a clutch shooter, can create his own shot, can shoot from almost anywhere, he has so many offensive tools that's almost impossible to stop him one on one, so I'm sorry but Danny and JJ are not even in the same ball park.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Joe Jhonson is not basically Danny Granger, people talk crap about JJ because of his salary but the fact is that JJ is one of the best small guards in the game, probably top 3, he is a clutch shooter, can create his own shot, can shoot from almost anywhere, he has so many offensive tools that's almost impossible to stop him one on one, so I'm sorry but Danny and JJ are not even in the same ball park.

I agree with you.......:cool: ...

Pacer Fan
08-13-2012, 01:18 PM
Joe Jhonson is not basically Danny Granger, people talk crap about JJ because of his salary but the fact is that JJ is one of the best small guards in the game, probably top 3, he is a clutch shooter, can create his own shot, can shoot from almost anywhere, he has so many offensive tools that's almost impossible to stop him one on one, so I'm sorry but Danny and JJ are not even in the same ball park.

I disagree with everything you have stated there. My head would explode if the Pacers took that god awful contract of JJ's. He is not what you say he is. Not sure what the heck your talking about quite frankly. How you talk about him is like JJ is Kobe in his hay day. The whole thing why people talk bad about JJ is because he way under performs per his contract. Hell, Atlanta would have never took that crap from the Nets if he was such a value chip. Brooklyn only did it cause they don't have a choice. They need to perform for Brooklyn.

For everything JJ may do better then Danny, Danny does something else better. They both have strengths and weaknesses!

All 4 remaining years are guaranteed
2012/2013 - $19,752,645
2013/2014 - $21,466,718
2014/2015 - $23,180,790
2015/2016 - $24,894,863

Peck
08-13-2012, 02:00 PM
Joe Jhonson is not basically Danny Granger, people talk crap about JJ because of his salary but the fact is that JJ is one of the best small guards in the game, probably top 3, he is a clutch shooter, can create his own shot, can shoot from almost anywhere, he has so many offensive tools that's almost impossible to stop him one on one, so I'm sorry but Danny and JJ are not even in the same ball park.

I'm confused, are you talking about Joe Johnson or LeBron James? Cause what you have described is LeBron James so I am to assume you were typing up something about him and accidently put it here and placed Joe Johnsons name on it.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 02:20 PM
I'm confused, are you talking about Joe Johnson or LeBron James? Cause what you have described is LeBron James so I am to assume you were typing up something about him and accidently put it here and placed Joe Johnsons name on it.

Lebron is known for not been that clutch, he is also not that good from 3 so nope I wasn't talking about him.

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 02:21 PM
So how Boston took Miami to 7 games if they are not as good as the Pacers?

They DIDN'T beat them, did they? The final results were the same as the Pacers, right? Fall back on the stats of our starting 5 vs theirs. Or fall back on the regular season results. Or the standings. Neither the Pacer NOR the Celtics beat the Heat in the playoffs. That's the facts, Jack.....*stupid sunglass smiley icon with tongue sticking out*
ps-I have zero prob w/ you, I just get frustrated with the ancient smurf-colored one.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
08-13-2012, 02:21 PM
This thread has gotten ridiculous...

Back on topic, the Pacers really need to address their PG situation. Don't get me wrong I like Hill, but his ideal role is a back up combo guard / sixth man off the bench. He just does not have the skills to run an offense. Augustin for DC is a lateral move.

This was our most glaring weakness last season, and it has yet to be addressed.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 02:31 PM
They DIDN'T beat them, did they? The final results were the same as the Pacers, right? Fall back on the stats of our starting 5 vs theirs. Or fall back on the regular season results. Or the standings. Neither the Pacer NOR the Celtics beat the Heat in the playoffs. That's the facts, Jack.....*stupid sunglass smiley icon with tongue sticking out*
ps-I have zero prob w/ you, I just get frustrated with the ancient smurf-colored one.

The end result was not the same Boston took Miami to 7 games and the Pacers took them to six, not only that but if I remember correctly Bosh was back in the last games against Boston making it even harder for Boston to do anything.

I think that if you talk about regular season records yeah the Pacers are going to have the best record because Boston doesn't give a crap about that, so in that case you are right, my point is that as soon as the playoffs start Boston is still the better team.

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 02:35 PM
The end result was not the same Boston took Miami to 7 games and the Pacers took them to six, not only that but if I remember correctly Bosh was back in the last games against Boston making it even harder for Boston to do anything.

I think that if you talk about regular season records yeah the Pacers are going to have the best record because Boston doesn't give a crap about that, so in that case you are right, my point is that as soon as the playoffs start Boston is still the better team.
By one game? Ok, I guess. Blu talks like they are/were light years ahead of the Pacers. BTW-We were winning the game Bosh was injured in. And the results WERE the same....we both lost to the Heat, regardless of how many games it took.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 02:49 PM
By one game? Ok, I guess. Blu talks like they are/were light years ahead of the Pacers. BTW-We were winning the game Bosh was injured in. And the results WERE the same....we both lost to the Heat, regardless of how many games it took.

I don't think they are light years ahead of the Pacers but I think they are better, they have 3 players that are better than any Pacers player, Ray Allen left but they brought a similar clutch player in Jason T, I guess that as long as their new big 3 are healthy I wouldn't bet against them on the playoffs.

Their bench is also better, like I said before to me the Pacers are made for the regular season and the Celtics are made for the playoffs.

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 03:09 PM
I don't think they are light years ahead of the Pacers but I think they are better, they have 3 players that are better than any Pacers player, Ray Allen left but they brought a similar clutch player in Jason T, I guess that as long as their new big 3 are healthy I wouldn't bet against them on the playoffs.

Their bench is also better, like I said before to me the Pacers are made for the regular season and the Celtics are made for the playoffs.

Well at least we can agree to disagree civilly...I happen to think we are better than the Celtics in both. Guess I am a homer, but I truly think that way. Only time will tell.

Peck
08-13-2012, 03:22 PM
Lebron is known for not been that clutch, he is also not that good from 3 so nope I wasn't talking about him.

So you are officially saying that Joe Johnson is more clutch than LeBron James? I just want this on the record. :)

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 03:31 PM
Lebron is known for not been that clutch, he is also not that good from 3 so nope I wasn't talking about him.

Lebron has shown time and again that he is plenty clutch. Just because the media has decided that not winning a title every year=not clutch, does not mean you have to believe it. There is no other word for Lebron's game against us in game 4 of the second round than clutch. That was a moment when Lebron could have folded, but he reached down and delivered a brilliant performance. He did it again in the ECF and delivered yet again in the Finals. In the Olympics, he proved to be the guy who could score any time he wanted and was a safety net for every other player.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 03:48 PM
So you are officially saying that Joe Johnson is more clutch than LeBron James? I just want this on the record. :)

I have a group of player that I rather give the ball to on the clutch than Lebron and JJ is included, I take Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade over Lebron in the last five minutes and before you ask nope I'm not saying this players are better than Lebron we are only talking about clutch shooting or ability to close the games, maybe Lebron is turning that corner but I'm not ready to put him up there yet.

mattie
08-13-2012, 04:03 PM
I have a group of player that I rather give the ball to on the clutch than Lebron and JJ is included, I take Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade over Lebron in the last five minutes and before you ask nope I'm not saying this players are better than Lebron we are only talking about clutch shooting or ability to close the games, maybe Lebron is turning that corner but I'm not ready to put him up there yet.

Obviously I could point out that 82games.com disputes your claim entirely. But I'd rather just point out how you're lazily taking the media's word instead of verifying yourself. Kobe Bryant is has been annointed by the media as the King of Clutch. It's funny because Kobe is HORRIBLE in the clutch. If there is one thing you can count on in a close game against LA, it is Kobe hurling crap at the rim and you have a legitimate chance to win.

It's also funny because Gasol and Bynum get smart and just crash the boards hard in an effort to save the Lakers from Kobe's **** poor play.

Your stance on who is clutch is based entirely on the medias narrative that you've fallen for hook line and sinker. This coming from the guy who considers himself an outside of the box thinker that brings something different to this board. Right now you sound like just got done listening to Chris Broussard tell you everything he knows about basketball.

***** weak son!

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 04:11 PM
Obviously I could point out that 82games.com disputes your claim entirely. But I'd rather just point out how you're lazily taking the media's word instead of verifying yourself. Kobe Bryant is has been annointed by the media as the King of Clutch. It's funny because Kobe is HORRIBLE in the clutch. If there is one thing you can count on in a close game against LA, it is Kobe hurling crap at the rim and you have a legitimate chance to win.

It's also funny because Gasol and Bynum get smart and just crash the boards hard in an effort to save the Lakers from Kobe's **** poor play.

Your stance on who is clutch is based entirely on the medias narrative that you've fallen for hook line and sinker. This coming from the guy who considers himself an outside of the box thinker that brings something different to this board. Right now you sound like just got done listening to Chris Broussard tell you everything he knows about basketball.

***** weak son!

Just when I thought you were turning the corner :shakehead:

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:12 PM
You'd rather have Joe Johnson closing a game than Lebron James? That is hilarious.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 04:13 PM
Obviously I could point out that 82games.com disputes your claim entirely. But I'd rather just point out how you're lazily taking the media's word instead of verifying yourself. Kobe Bryant is has been annointed by the media as the King of Clutch. It's funny because Kobe is HORRIBLE in the clutch. If there is one thing you can count on in a close game against LA, it is Kobe hurling crap at the rim and you have a legitimate chance to win.

It's also funny because Gasol and Bynum get smart and just crash the boards hard in an effort to save the Lakers from Kobe's **** poor play.

Your stance on who is clutch is based entirely on the medias narrative that you've fallen for hook line and sinker. This coming from the guy who considers himself an outside of the box thinker that brings something different to this board. Right now you sound like just got done listening to Chris Broussard tell you everything he knows about basketball.

***** weak son!

Well, pardon me, but I have watched a lot of games and I don't know if I have seen anyone since Michael Jordan and Larry Bird, hit as many game winners as Kobe does. I'll let him take the last shot for me any time. I think LBJ got his reputation because in earlier years he passed the ball in those situations to an open teammate. Now, he still does that a bit but he looks to make that winning shot himself. So, I understand how he got the reputation but I think he has proven it is bogus now......:cool: ...

mattie
08-13-2012, 04:14 PM
I really hope you're kidding. Give away picks + our most veteran leadership presence (not to mention a very good player) for a knucklehead? Yeah, Smith is athletic, but he is not what is needed to have this team get better.

I think Roy, Hill, and Danny are enough leadership for this team. I think the team needs to get better.

If you had Smith, then you have size at every position. You'll have Paul/Danny/Josh that can defend any big lineup in the NBA as well as any small ball lineup in the NBA. You'll have three very good defenders that have different strengths that you can throw at LeBron James. You'll have a lineup that starts four long shot blockers.

That is legitimately a way I can see maybe a less talented team beat a better talented team in Miami. Just because of shear size and athleticism.

adamscb
08-13-2012, 04:17 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I say Lebron was the definition of clutch in the playoffs...

billbradley
08-13-2012, 04:21 PM
Lebron is known for not been that clutch, he is also not that good from 3 so nope I wasn't talking about him.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/d1Px-jPm_TU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I will never forget this game.

29 of your teams last 30 points in DOUBLE overtime in an Eastern Conference Finals game win IN DETROIT?

Not sure JJ has done that before.

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:23 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/d1Px-jPm_TU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

I will never forget this game.

29 of your teams last 30 points in DOUBLE overtime in an Eastern Conference Finals game win IN DETROIT?

Not sure JJ has done that before.

Joe Johnson has never even made it past the second round.

Major Cold
08-13-2012, 04:26 PM
I think the topic of Lebron is not clutch has been put to rest this summer. With the playoffs and Olympics, Lebron has shown us that he is finally the king. And I am a hater.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 04:27 PM
I will never forget this game.

29 of your teams last 30 points in DOUBLE overtime in an Eastern Conference Finals game win IN DETROIT?

Not sure JJ has done that before.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uwSBVRVY1-o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

adamscb
08-13-2012, 04:33 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uwSBVRVY1-o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

that's nothing compared to Lebron's 29 points. half of the video is replays.

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:33 PM
Tough for me to say Joe Johnson has really shown up in big games when he's barely even played in any. Aren't you the guy always running around here saying the goal is championship or bust? The guy hasn't even played for a conference title.

mattie
08-13-2012, 04:34 PM
The weird part about the LBJ hate is that he is truly wanna of the nicest people. I mean I get the jealousy I guess. He's the best player on the planet so there is some jealousy there. But he's truly just one of the nicest people. You can't enjoy watching his incredible game? I mean MJ was a dick. Truly a prick. So at least you could have some sort of excuse for disliking MJ. With LBJ? He's truly breathtaking to watch at nearly every aspect of the game. The majority of the time he's the best rebounder, passer, scorer, and defender on the court. And the entire time he's a gotta million dollar smile on while playing. How can anyone dislike him? I don't get it!

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 04:35 PM
I think the topic of Lebron is not clutch has been put to rest this summer. With the playoffs and Olympics, Lebron has shown us that he is finally the king. And I am a hater.

Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 04:35 PM
Tough for me to say Joe Johnson has really shown up in big games when he's barely even played in any. Aren't you the guy always running around here saying the goal is championship or bust? The guy hasn't even played for a conference title.

Neither has Love on the Timberwolves but wouldn't you like to have him on your team instead of West? :cool: ...

cdash
08-13-2012, 04:36 PM
This thread took an incredibly idiotic turn. Just so we are clear: We have an actual argument that Joe Johnson is a more clutch basketball player than LeBron James. That is what I believe I am reading.

billbradley
08-13-2012, 04:36 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uwSBVRVY1-o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JJ scored 20 in the fourth, there wasn't even a game winner.

While a great performance, the JJ vid is not near the same as LBJ carrying a team for three periods with clutch shooting and scoring at the end of each quarter, overtime and game.

adamscb
08-13-2012, 04:36 PM
Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?

wow you're such a troll, not that i took any of your previous posts seriously to begin with...

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:36 PM
Neither has Love on the Timberwolves but wouldn't you like to have him on your team instead of West? :cool: ...

Yes, but he is comparing Joe Johnson to Lebron James.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 04:38 PM
Tough for me to say Joe Johnson has really shown up in big games when he's barely even played in any. Aren't you the guy always running around here saying the goal is championship or bust? The guy hasn't even played for a conference title.

Been clutch doesn't have anything to do with making it to a championship or a conference finals, many great ones never made it to the finals, that doesn't mean they sucked.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 04:38 PM
The weird part about the LBJ hate is that he is truly wanna of the nicest people. I mean I get the jealousy I guess. He's the best player on the planet so there is some jealousy there. But he's truly just one of the nicest people. You can't enjoy watching his incredible game? I mean MJ was a dick. Truly a prick. So at least you could have some sort of excuse for disliking MJ. With LBJ? He's truly breathtaking to watch at nearly every aspect of the game. The majority of the time he's the best rebounder, passer, scorer, and defender on the court. And the entire time he's a gotta million dollar smile on while playing. How can anyone dislike him? I don't get it!

Well said, they would love him if he played in Indy...... Most of them are just homers who drink nothing but Pacer koolade and actually know very little about the rest of the NBA. The ones who are knowledgable will say they don't like him but then immediately mention that he is the best player on the planet.... perhaps the best ever.....:cool: ...

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:38 PM
This thread took an incredibly idiotic turn. Just so we are clear: We have an actual argument that Joe Johnson is a more clutch basketball player than LeBron James. That is what I believe I am reading.

Yes, yes we do

I have a group of player that I rather give the ball to on the clutch than Lebron and JJ is included, I take Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade over Lebron in the last five minutes

Honestly, I'm just surprised Monta Ellis isn't on the list as well.

cdash
08-13-2012, 04:39 PM
Tangent: Are we sure OlBlu and vnzla are not the same person? Have we cross checked IPs? They seem to have each other's backs far too often and both utilize emoticons liberally.

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:39 PM
Been clutch doesn't have anything to do with making it to a championship or a conference finals, many great ones never made it to the finals, that doesn't mean they sucked.

Just so we're clear, in all seriousness, you said you would take Joe Johnson over Lebron James in the last 5 minutes of a close game. Do you understand that?

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 04:40 PM
Yes, but he is comparing Joe Johnson to Lebron James.

I've never compared Lebron to JJ you guys are the ones making the comparison.

cdash
08-13-2012, 04:41 PM
Been clutch doesn't have anything to do with making it to a championship or a conference finals, many great ones never made it to the finals, that doesn't mean they sucked.

Actually, being clutch has a lot to do with deep success in the playoffs, or at least big games on the biggest stage. When the pressure is up, the spotlight is on, that's when guys show what they are truly made of. Joe Johnson is a fine player and may well be an assassin in the clutch--but he hasn't done it in a big enough setting for me to call him better than LeBron James, who has some famous LeChokes, but also has carried a team to a title and another far inferior team to the Finals. And that man has been in the spotlight his entire career.

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:42 PM
I've never compared Lebron to JJ you guys are the ones making the comparison.

You are incredible.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
08-13-2012, 04:47 PM
Well said, they would love him if he played in Indy...... Most of them are just homers who drink nothing but Pacer koolade and actually know very little about the rest of the NBA. The ones who are knowledgable will say they don't like him but then immediately mention that he is the best player on the planet.... perhaps the best ever.....:cool: ...This isn't the first time this guy has attempted to insult either specific posters or the entire PD forum in general. Not only in this thread but also others. At what point is his ever-increasing trolling actually going to be considered trolling?

D-BONE
08-13-2012, 04:47 PM
I thanked you for both posts.......:cool: ...

Yeah, I don't think we are in 100% agreement, but I think we are closer than we are far apart on the Granger-Pierce/Celts-Pacers thing.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 04:48 PM
Actually, being clutch has a lot to do with deep success in the playoffs, or at least big games on the biggest stage. When the pressure is up, the spotlight is on, that's when guys show what they are truly made of. Joe Johnson is a fine player and may well be an assassin in the clutch--but he hasn't done it in a big enough setting for me to call him better than LeBron James, who has some famous LeChokes, but also has carried a team to a title and another far inferior team to the Finals. And that man has been in the spotlight his entire career.

And again I've never say that he is better than Lebron, the overreaction is not letting many of you read what I'm talking about.

Lebron to me is good enough to destroy teams(like he did last year) that he doesn't have to be clutch because of the big margin of victory, he is just that good, my point is that if I need a player to take a last second shot I rather take the players I've mentioned and I even forgot Drose who is one the best clutch players in the NBA.

On the playoffs when Miami was playing the Pacers I wanted Lebron to have the ball in the last minute and he did Lechoke many times last year.

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:50 PM
You said last 5 minutes of a close game you would rather have Joe Johnson over Lebron James, you can keep trying to twist the words anyway you like, but don't be surprised that you will continue to look around and find yourself alone on crazy island.

D-BONE
08-13-2012, 04:52 PM
I agree with the last part of your post 100%. But there is a big difference (in my opinion) between an average NBA player and a good NBA player. I'm not saying he's a star, and definitely not an All-Star. But he's far from a "solid" or average NBA starter. Anybody who is in the top 50-60 players in the league, that's a little more than solid.....at least in my opinion

I think maybe we disagree on semantics. You see solid as more like a C grade, I think maybe I see it more like a B-/B grade. I do think he is above average, perhaps we can argue about how above average for DG. If you prefer good as your qualifier, I have no big argument. He's certainly not bad. We obviously are on the same page on his ideal role for us to be an elite contender.

mattie
08-13-2012, 04:53 PM
I think Roy, Hill, and Danny are enough leadership for this team. I think the team needs to get better.

If you had Smith, then you have size at every position. You'll have Paul/Danny/Josh that can defend any big lineup in the NBA as well as any small ball lineup in the NBA. You'll have three very good defenders that have different strengths that you can throw at LeBron James. You'll have a lineup that starts four long shot blockers.

That is legitimately a way I can see maybe a less talented team beat a better talented team in Miami. Just because of shear size and athleticism.

I had to bump this- haha I just realized there are some people actually against trading our 13/6 PF for a 19-10 PF lol

Would you trade for a guy that is better at every single aspect of the game for your current starter?? "No! Our guy is a better 'leader!'"

That is ridiculous.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 04:53 PM
You said last 5 minutes of a close game you would rather have Joe Johnson over Lebron James, you can keep trying to twist the words anyway you like, but don't be surprised that you will continue to look around and find yourself alone on crazy island.

Forgot to take the pills today? :confused: I'm not twisting any words but I'm not going to argue with somebody that doesn't really want to have a conversation, please stop replaying to my posts if all you are going to do is try to argue.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 04:54 PM
This isn't the first time this guy has attempted to insult either specific posters or the entire PD forum in general. Not only in this thread but also others. At what point is his ever-increasing trolling actually going to be considered trolling?

I didn't attempt to insult anyone. If I had wanted to insult them, I would have done it. I meant exactly what I said and it is not trolling to point out that some here don't know what they are talking about and only root for the home team. I don't see anything bad about that but there is no sense in trying to point out anything to them like Danny Granger is a good player but probably the second most overrated player in Pacer history. If you were insulted, put me on ignore.....:cool: ...

Trader Joe
08-13-2012, 04:57 PM
Forgot to take the pills today? :confused: I'm not twisting any words but I'm not going to argue with somebody that doesn't really want to have a conversation, please stop replaying to my posts if all you are going to do is try to argue.

I don't know what the first part of your post implies, but I am not trying to argue against anything that is made up or false. I am however saying that I cannot for the life of me understand why you would rather have Joe Johnson over Lebron James in the last 5 minutes of a game.

Peck
08-13-2012, 05:13 PM
I didn't attempt to insult anyone. If I had wanted to insult them, I would have done it. I meant exactly what I said and it is not trolling to point out that some here don't know what they are talking about and only root for the home team. I don't see anything bad about that but there is no sense in trying to point out anything to them like Danny Granger is a good player but probably the second most overrated player in Pacer history. If you were insulted, put me on ignore.....:cool: ...

Normally I would agree with you however your statement that "most of them are homers" implies that most people on the forum are homers because you didn't specify it any other way. That is an insult to the posters on this board whether you think it's bad or not is irrelevant.

Peck
08-13-2012, 05:15 PM
Ok once again I am going to come on here and remind people that the ignore button is your friend. Going back & forth with people who you know won't change their mind no matter what is both useless & counter productive.

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 05:20 PM
Thanks Peck for the reminder. Getting called a homer and being told that I am ignorant of the rest of the NBA is the final straw for me. Obvious troll is obvious...ignored.

vnzla81
08-13-2012, 05:23 PM
Thanks Peck for the reminder. Getting called a homer and being told that I am ignorant of the rest of the NBA is the final straw for me. Obvious troll is obvious...ignored.

Calling somebody a troll because you disagree with them is not right either.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 05:24 PM
Normally I would agree with you however your statement that "most of them are homers" implies that most people on the forum are homers because you didn't specify it any other way. That is an insult to the posters on this board whether you think it's bad or not is irrelevant.

Let me put it this way. Are most posters on PD homers who are fanatical about their teams? I happen to think that they are. I don't think that is bad but it is like talking to a brick wall when it comes to Pacers or Colts players. I have had people tell me today that Luck will beat all of Peyton's records and is a better prospect than Cam Newton. I have one who tells me that the Pacers have the best starting five in all of basketball and that they are better than the Boston Celtics. That makes them homers to me and their comments have to be viewed with a grain of salt. So, if people are insulted by being called "homers" here then so be it. I suspect they would be insulted if it was pointed out that Indianapolis really is not the center of the sports universe. Am I not allowed to have the opinion that most posters here are homers? I would have thought that saying they don't know what they are talking about would be more insulting than that. Anyone is free to put me on ignore. I could care less.....:cool: ...

mildlysane
08-13-2012, 05:28 PM
Calling somebody a troll because you disagree with them is not right either.

That is BS...He has implied that I smoke drugs, am too young to comprehend the NBA , am a blind homer, and am ignorant of the NBA. THAT is trolling. Guess I have to ignore you too. Same d*** person, geeze.

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 05:29 PM
Calling somebody a troll because you disagree with them is not right either.

Disagreeing with some of the posters here is frowned upon and some of them are insulted when someone does disagree. I disagree with you all of the time (and I agree with you often too). I don't think you are a troll. I think it is being just as much a troll if a poster is a complete homer who says preposterous things like "the Pacers have the best staring five in the NBA" or that they have seen enough and Andrew Luck is a top ten QB. I guess there is not talking to people like that at all. He is welcome to ignore me. He will have someone tell him that I have said something that I have not. Calling someone a troll is the only defense some of these hopeless folk have, they have no argument for their positions.....:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 05:31 PM
That is BS...He has implied that I smoke drugs, am too young to comprehend the NBA , am a blind homer, and am ignorant of the NBA. THAT is trolling. Guess I have to ignore you too. Same d*** person, geeze.

Your comments make one wonder what you are smoking, if you are 12 years old and if you know anything about any other team in the NBA. You are a blind homer. Those things are evident from your posts. You call people "troll" when you can't win an argument but go ahead. You will eventually have everyone on ignore and then we can comment on how silly your posts are without you calling us names....:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-13-2012, 05:44 PM
wow you're such a troll, not that i took any of your previous posts seriously to begin with...

What is the garbage of calling him a troll just because you disagree with him. I don't agree with him on this but there are lots of people in the sports world who do agree with him. Does that make all of them trolls too? Perhaps this is a case of "the smeller is the feller" and you are really the troll. He didn't call you any names that I have seen.....:cool: ...

Pacer Fan
08-13-2012, 06:07 PM
Back to the Title of the thread...

Yea, I'd like to see a move done if only for the best possible player at the best possible value on a 1 year deal to create more trade bait during the season.

brownjake43
08-13-2012, 07:38 PM
I don't have any problem with it. Homers are homers and they don't pay attention to what other teams are doing or where their own team is weak. I am a fan, not a homer. I can see where the Pacers need work and I am watching several teams add significant starters who will move ahead of them. This isn't last year. The East is significantly stronger and the Pacers remained about the same, perhaps a little better on the bench. That translates into less wins and a lower seed in my view. But, it is just my view and I am glad their are avid fans who don't do any thinking at all, they just watch the games. There is nothing wrong with either one of us in that regard.....:cool: ...

You know you are a doubter when you think your own team will finish behind teams that Vegas Odds puts your team ahead of.

To Win East:
Heat (-175)
Bulls (+450)
Celtics (+1000)
Pacers (+1200)
Knicks, Sixers, Nets (+1500)

Just saying. Atleast have a little faith and put your team where the actual experts have us.

Major Cold
08-13-2012, 08:13 PM
Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?
No. It is clear that Lebron has gotten better this year. He took over games in the finals. And no I don't think he is better than Jordan. But this is clearly not the same Lebron as last year. And game 4 against us was the coming out party. I am not a fan of him, because of his antics. But he has grown up a lot. And winning the gold and the championship is prove. It isn't a mask.

Will he be a legend on Jordan's level? If you asked me last year I would say no. But this year he grew up. Developed a nice step back mid-range jumper. Was able to take two dribbles on the open three and hit the corner spot up shooter. Last year he would have taken the open three.

Lebron is blossoming. He was always had the skill. Now he has the maturation.

mattie
08-13-2012, 08:29 PM
Back to the thread:

Pacers trade two future first rounds and West for Josh Smith.

The result:

8 Championships.

Do it Kevin!

Miller_time04
08-14-2012, 12:56 AM
Back to the thread:

Pacers trade two future first rounds and West for Josh Smith.

The result:

8 Championships.

Do it Kevin!

No.

Heisenberg
08-14-2012, 12:59 AM
Back to the thread:

Pacers trade two future first rounds and West for Josh Smith.

The result:

8 Championships.

Do it Kevin!
Bit steep but I could be talked into it. If Smith weren't a FA next summer. Guess we would inherit his Bird rights though. Not sure ATL'd be all that interested though.

mattie
08-14-2012, 01:03 AM
Bit steep but I could be talked into it. If Smith weren't a FA next summer. Guess we would inherit his Bird rights though. Not sure ATL'd be all that interested though.

Obviously I have no idea at all, but I was thinking they might go for it because they're sort of in rebuilding mode. So they may not even resign Josh Smith. So I figure since both West and Smith are both expiring, than ATL nets because I'm sure loading up on draft picks might be a real attractive goal for them.

I might seem crazy for us to just donate draft picks like that, but having Josh Smiths size and athleticism and defensive prowess would probably make the Pacers be able to truly compete with anyone. 4 long athletic shot blockers, and great rebounding? Sounds good on paper.

I have no idea what ATL's plans are but loading up on picks seems like a good one.

I also think the Pacers wouldn't have to worry to much about Smith. playing on at least an E/C Finals team would probably be enough to convince him to resign.

Heisenberg
08-14-2012, 01:07 AM
If Atlanta wants to dump players then give up the West + the farm for Horford. It'd never happen, but it was fun dreaming about a Horford/Hibbert frontline before they signed him to that ridiculously team friendly extension.

mattie
08-14-2012, 01:11 AM
They ought to give up one of them. I think both Horford and Smith's best position are at the 4. It's probably one reason why ATL never really peaked as a team.

MvPlumlee
08-14-2012, 04:26 AM
I'm hoping the Hawks will finally realize it this season and keep Josh Smith to make a nice attempt to lure Howard.

Hypnotiq
08-14-2012, 04:28 AM
Get scalabrine we need a comedic 15th man on the team

Sparhawk
08-14-2012, 09:52 AM
If Atlanta wants to dump players then give up the West + the farm for Horford. It'd never happen, but it was fun dreaming about a Horford/Hibbert frontline before they signed him to that ridiculously team friendly extension.

Man, I'd love that. I'd trade West, 2 future unprotected firsts, Augustin for Horford + Teague (i'm not sure how high Atlanta really is on Teague).

Not sure how that would work for the Pacers cap. I guess OJ might not get signed then.

BillS
08-14-2012, 10:20 AM
Disagreeing with some of the posters here is frowned upon and some of them are insulted when someone does disagree.

The problem is that you imply that anyone who disagrees with you only does so because they are a homer and don't pay any attention to anyone else in the NBA like wise people such as yourself would do.

There's a long range between claiming every player on the Pacers is better than LBJ and defending the idea that the Pacers have a legitimate shot at 2nd in the East this year. The former is ridiculous, the latter is not completely out of line, and just being able to point out a counter-argument doesn't prove anyone who fails to accept that argument is blindly mislead.

We seem to have two extremes - people who disagree on the side of the Pacers are blind homers while people who disagree on the side against the Pacers are trolls. Neither of these is true, and everyone needs to just back off and remember why we are here.

OlBlu
08-14-2012, 10:56 AM
The problem is that you imply that anyone who disagrees with you only does so because they are a homer and don't pay any attention to anyone else in the NBA like wise people such as yourself would do.

There's a long range between claiming every player on the Pacers is better than LBJ and defending the idea that the Pacers have a legitimate shot at 2nd in the East this year. The former is ridiculous, the latter is not completely out of line, and just being able to point out a counter-argument doesn't prove anyone who fails to accept that argument is blindly mislead.

We seem to have two extremes - people who disagree on the side of the Pacers are blind homers while people who disagree on the side against the Pacers are trolls. Neither of these is true, and everyone needs to just back off and remember why we are here.

Thank you and that was very well put. I am sure that I am too hard on the folks that try to tell me the Pacers have the best starting five in all of the NBA and that the Pacers are a better team than the Boston Celtics. I want to see the Pacers do well and win. I think they have a hard hill to climb being a small market team trying to do it without any stars. I agree with management that they "over performed" last year and I doubt that adding some new bench pieces who do look to be better than what we had but not leaps and bounds better will make us "over perform" again this year. I am not negative about the Pacers. I predicted 48-34 and that is very good for this team. I don't think that everyone that disagrees with me is a complete homer but I do think the ones that scream "troll" probably are. I disagree with you all of the time but I don't think you are a homer and you see the strengths and the weaknesses of the team and their opponents. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me. I have learned a lot from people who disagree with me but I can't say that I have learned much from the people who do agree with me. Those differences are what we come here to discuss. Some can't take anyone disagreeing with them about anything. I'm not one of those folks......:cool: ...

adamscb
08-14-2012, 11:08 AM
well, we went back to the thread topic for a few posts...
:inbeforethelock:

Major Cold
08-14-2012, 11:34 AM
Thank you and that was very well put. I am sure that I am too hard on the folks that try to tell me the Pacers have the best starting five in all of the NBA and that the Pacers are a better team than the Boston Celtics. I want to see the Pacers do well and win. I think they have a hard hill to climb being a small market team trying to do it without any stars. I agree with management that they "over performed" last year and I doubt that adding some new bench pieces who do look to be better than what we had but not leaps and bounds better will make us "over perform" again this year. I am not negative about the Pacers. I predicted 48-34 and that is very good for this team. I don't think that everyone that disagrees with me is a complete homer but I do think the ones that scream "troll" probably are. I disagree with you all of the time but I don't think you are a homer and you see the strengths and the weaknesses of the team and their opponents. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me. I have learned a lot from people who disagree with me but I can't say that I have learned much from the people who do agree with me. Those differences are what we come here to discuss. Some can't take anyone disagreeing with them about anything. I'm not one of those folks......:cool: ...


see what happens when you add a well thought out post. You make sense troll.....Just kidding. :cool2:

mildlysane
08-14-2012, 11:53 AM
I guess ignore only works if no one quotes those on ignore. If someone claims I do drugs, am a blind homer, am ignorant of the NBA, am too young to understand the NBA, all the while ALWAYS taking a negative position on the team that this board is named after and that MOST posters are actually fans of, this isn't trolling? I guess I am just stupid then. I suppose my 30+ years of watching the NBA is just irrevelant and therefore my defense of the team that I grew up watching and am actually optimistic about is out of bounds and overbearing. I suppose that always putting down this team and always discounting every single move that they do, including discounting the 5th best record in the league, the coach who finished 2nd in Coach of the year, and the starting 5 who, statistically was one of the best in the regular season and playoffs, is the epitome of wise and fair judgment. Then fine, I will refrain from posting here and will find another board to follow the Pacers on. Enjoy arguing! This is the last time I am going to address this....I really didn't even want to type this, as I was over it and had him ignore.

OlBlu
08-14-2012, 12:01 PM
see what happens when you add a well thought out post. You make sense troll.....Just kidding. :cool2:

Hey!!......:cool: ...

OlBlu
08-14-2012, 12:02 PM
I guess ignore only works if no one quotes those on ignore. If someone claims I do drugs, am a blind homer, am ignorant of the NBA, am too young to understand the NBA, all the while ALWAYS taking a negative position on the team that this board is named after and that MOST posters are actually fans of, this isn't trolling? I guess I am just stupid then. I suppose my 30+ years of watching the NBA is just irrevelant and therefore my defense of the team that I grew up watching and am actually optimistic about is out of bounds and overbearing. I suppose that always putting down this team and always discounting every single move that they do, including discounting the 5th best record in the league, the coach who finished 2nd in Coach of the year, and the starting 5 who, statistically was one of the best in the regular season and playoffs, is the epitome of wise and fair judgment. Then fine, I will refrain from posting here and will find another board to follow the Pacers on. Enjoy arguing! This is the last time I am going to address this....I really didn't even want to type this, as I was over it and had him ignore.

I would not want you to leave. However, bear in mind that your posts which I view as way overly optimistic are as offensive to me as mine are to you. If you don't want an argument from someone you disagree with then good luck finding any forum where you will be able to do that.......:cool: ...

rabid
08-14-2012, 01:03 PM
That is BS...He has implied that I smoke drugs, am too young to comprehend the NBA , am a blind homer, and am ignorant of the NBA. THAT is trolling. Guess I have to ignore you too. Same d*** person, geeze.

Ignoring OlBlu and vnzla makes it a whole new forum. I tried and was very patient in talking to both, it was only after many months, and after being personally insulted by both of them on separate occasions that I finally put them on my ignore list. I don't like to do that especially when these guys post on the forum so often... but it's the best decision I ever made here.

Debating is great. Intentionally stirring the pot over and over again without much in the way of real facts to support your position, then implying that people who disagree with you are homers or otherwise ignorant, then repeating this over and over again in thread after thread, is just not something I'm interested in reading, and I don't miss it at all.

BillS
08-14-2012, 01:12 PM
Ignoring OlBlu and vnzla makes it a whole new forum. 90 percent of the trolling instantly goes away, it's like 2005 again!

EDIT: And by trolling I mean the personal attacks and intentional ******-talking, not just having a difference of opinion.

That really isn't the definition of trolling. Trolling is specifically dropping bombs to get a rise out of people without being at all interested in the specifics of the argument. Name-calling and trash talking isn't particularly appropriate - and people have been called out for it both privately and publicly - but if the arguments have some kind of backing to them then they aren't just being thrown out to cause a s**tstorm.

Just like being a homer in the derogatory sense isn't simply defending one's team, it is making outlandish statements simply BECAUSE it is one's team. Giving one's own team the benefit of the doubt, while a form of homerism, should not imply some sort of deficient ability to perceive or study the game.

Both of these words get used far too often in terms of defining the real problem. They become just another name to call someone in lieu of making a cogent argument or using ignore.

vnzla81
08-14-2012, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=rabidpacersfan;1493397]Ignoring OlBlu and vnzla makes it a whole new forum. I tried and was very patient in talking to both, it was only after many months, and after being personally insulted by both of them on separate occasions that I finally put them on my ignore list. I don't like to do that especially when these guys post on the forum so often... but it's the best decision I ever made here.

Debating is great. Intentionally stirring the pot over and over again without much in the way of real facts to support your position, then implying that people who disagree with you are homers or otherwise ignorant, then repeating this over and over again in thread after thread, is just not something I'm interested in reading, and I don't miss it at all.

[COLOR="#FF0000"]THIS ADDS NOTHING TO THE DISCUSSION, IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE HIM FINE BUT LET'S NOT THROW UP PHOTO'S INSULTING HIM EITHER

Ace E.Anderson
08-14-2012, 01:19 PM
Ignoring OlBlu and vnzla makes it a whole new forum. 90 percent of the trolling instantly goes away, it's like 2005 again!

EDIT: And by trolling I mean the personal attacks and intentional ******-talking, not just having a difference of opinion.

Part of what makes this such a good forum is the discrepancy in opinions. I'd say 90% of the posters on this site have good, valid basketball knowledge. And that includes OlBlu and vnzla. Yes they're opinions often times (more like every time) are extremely negative and against the grain, but it's easy to disparage an argument with simple facts and stats. But as fans, we each are entitled to our opinion. Part of what makes all of this so fun is arguing a point back and forth that shouldn't really matter in the first place! Lol who cares if WE think the Pacers should make a move? Who cares if we think we're better than the Celtics. Who cares if Danny Granger is a spot 3pt shooter, or a 2nd tier scorer :cool:

At the end of the day, this is supposed to be FUN!! And honestly there really is NO right answer to most of the things we discuss, no matter how black and white it may seem.

As for the personal attacks, I've never had one thrown my way. I've gone back and forth with both posters, as well as other posters, on a variety of topics. Maybe I'm just fortunate. But also, maybe we need to not be quite as sensitive to the things they say, and worry about the topics that come up in the forum. Sticks and stones gentlemen, sticks and stones.

Just my two cents...

OlBlu
08-14-2012, 01:22 PM
Part of what makes this such a good forum is the discrepancy in opinions. I'd say 90% of the posters on this site have good, valid basketball knowledge. And that includes OlBlu and vnzla. Yes they're opinions often times (more like every time) are extremely negative and against the grain, but it's easy to disparage an argument with simple facts and stats. But as fans, we each are entitled to our opinion. Part of what makes all of this so fun is arguing a point back and forth that shouldn't really matter in the first place! Lol who cares if WE think the Pacers should make a move? Who cares if we think we're better than the Celtics. Who cares if Danny Granger is a spot 3pt shooter, or a 2nd tier scorer :cool:

At the end of the day, this is supposed to be FUN!! And honestly there really is NO right answer to most of the things we discuss, no matter how black and white it may seem.

As for the personal attacks, I've never had one thrown my way. I've gone back and forth with both posters, as well as other posters, on a variety of topics. Maybe I'm just fortunate. But also, maybe we need to not be quite as sensitive to the things they say, and worry about the topics that come up in the forum. Sticks and stones gentlemen, sticks and stones.

Just my two cents...


Hey!! :cool: ... and a good two cents it was......

mattie
08-14-2012, 01:26 PM
Man, I'd love that. I'd trade West, 2 future unprotected firsts, Augustin for Horford + Teague (i'm not sure how high Atlanta really is on Teague).

Not sure how that would work for the Pacers cap. I guess OJ might not get signed then.

They like Teague.

I really like Horford and wouldn't be opposed to a West for Horford trade at all, but I'd much rather have Smith. Smith's a far superior defender and shot blocker. I absolutely love defense and would go for that in a heartbeat.

Naptown_Seth
08-14-2012, 01:31 PM
That really isn't the definition of trolling. Trolling is specifically dropping bombs to get a rise out of people without being at all interested in the specifics of the argument. Name-calling and trash talking isn't particularly appropriate - and people have been called out for it both privately and publicly - but if the arguments have some kind of backing to them then they aren't just being thrown out to cause a s**tstorm.

Just like being a homer in the derogatory sense isn't simply defending one's team, it is making outlandish statements simply BECAUSE it is one's team. Giving one's own team the benefit of the doubt, while a form of homerism, should not imply some sort of deficient ability to perceive or study the game.

Both of these words get used far too often in terms of defining the real problem. They become just another name to call someone in lieu of making a cogent argument or using ignore.
Well said Bill.

Pro or Con "trolling" can be done. It's simply taking an irrational stand in a debate, typically a hot button topic, with no real intention of making a convincing case that the stand is rational. After all, if you'd thought it out to a rational point then you would have given up the point as a bit irrational before even posting it.


I argue like crazy, but I can be convinced and have happily admitted to being convinced or even wrong on many occasions. I come here for perspective which means I only want to hear well thought out points, regardless of whether I agree with them at that point or not.

But I have no use for topic trolling, it derails and ruins an otherwise interesting discussion.

Trader Joe
08-14-2012, 01:54 PM
I think the biggest thing the Pacers will lack this year is a really great rebounder off the bench. Mahinmi is alright, but I would like to have someone that is just a per minute rebound beast coming in at the 4 or 5. If we could swap Tyler + something for a guy like that I'd be really happy for the moment.

Obviously want them to get their ears to the ground around December though and see what mine shake out of a tree come trade deadline.

rabid
08-14-2012, 02:57 PM
That really isn't the definition of trolling. Trolling is specifically dropping bombs to get a rise out of people without being at all interested in the specifics of the argument.

Actually that's exactly what I mean, and exactly why I ended up ignoring both of them.

Having said that I edited my post (before I saw the replies) because I wanted to make sure I was getting my point across more clearly... moving on now...

vnzla81
08-14-2012, 03:02 PM
Well said Bill.

Pro or Con "trolling" can be done. It's simply taking an irrational stand in a debate, typically a hot button topic, with no real intention of making a convincing case that the stand is rational. After all, if you'd thought it out to a rational point then you would have given up the point as a bit irrational before even posting it.


I argue like crazy, but I can be convinced and have happily admitted to being convinced or even wrong on many occasions. I come here for perspective which means I only want to hear well thought out points, regardless of whether I agree with them at that point or not.

But I have no use for topic trolling, it derails and ruins an otherwise interesting discussion.

Convinced that Mcbob sucks yet? :-p

OlBlu
08-14-2012, 03:18 PM
Actually that's exactly what I mean, and exactly why I ended up ignoring both of them.

Having said that I edited my post (before I saw the replies) because I wanted to make sure I was getting my point across more clearly... moving on now...

Hear no evil, speak no evil and see no evil. If that is what you want, have fun in your little prison.... I really liked Vnzla81's post showing someone in a plastic bubble. It wouldn't be my thing but to each his own.....:cool: ...