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Peck
11-23-2004, 01:53 AM
I'm sorry if this has been posted elswhere but I haven't seen it yet.

I've seen cryptic messages & I've seen some people come right out & state their feelings. But I've not seen a place where we've actually put it down. So I thought we should have a place for future referance.

What we're going to do in this thread is state how we feel & where we stand about a few topics related to this incident. I'll list out the topics & then I hope everybody answers them. This can be for Pacers & non-Pacer fans alike.

Here is the list.

1. Ron Artest season long suspension

2. S. Jackson 30 game suspension

3. J. O'Neal 25 game suspension

4. David Stern's handling of the situation

5. Ron Artest future with the Indiana Pacers


I'll go ahead & begin & for those of you new to the board even though I won't seem to be by some, I am a life long Pacers fan.

1. Ron's suspension. I was hoping for 50 games. But I understand the season long recess for Ron. He is a gifted athlete, as I've said before capable of being one of the top 10 players in the league. However he does not have control over himself & I don't know that he ever will. If this was his first offense then I think the penalty would have been less but Ron has a violent past. So ultimately I do understand why this punishment was so hard.

2. Jackson. Did I miss it somewhere, isn't Jackson the only player we have not heard from? Hasn't everybody other than him expressed some form of remorse? Jackson on the floor was a disaster. He was pulling out his jersey & challenging every member of the Pistons team. However, in his defense there were some mitigating circumstances that must be taken into consideration. When he had his back turned Rasheed Wallace shoved him out of the way to get to Ben & Ron. He didn't give him a gentle push either he almost doubled him over. This set Jax off. Then we will never know what he was going into the stands for because the min. he rounded the corner he was immediately hit by the flying fluid. The person was right in front of him & he started swinging. By then all reason was gone. He did get a good hit in on the bald guy so I guess out of anybody he actually eventually hit the right guy. 30 games is harsh, but appropriate.

3. J.O. If I haven't pissed off my fellow Pacer fans before I sure will now. The man was getting up off of his back when J.O. ran from the side & clocked him. BTW, John Ewdwards was standing with J.O. there was no other fan scuffle as we've heard on here. J.O. looked over his shoulder & saw A.J. punching the guy & came running. I do not buy the defense of the guy was on the floor so everybody should clock him. Bull. Does that mean if a fan runs on the floor the Police should shoot him? No. & even if it does make sense to hit a person on the floor how much is enough? One punch? Two punches? Every member of the team & staff? The man was on his knees trying to get up & J.O. just clocked him. Of course I'm not sure what hurt worse the fact that J.O. hit him so hard or the fact that while he was on his back the first thing he saw when he opened his eyes was the score board that read Pacers 97 Detroit 82 ;) Now in O'Neals defense I thought all along he was the trouble in the tunnel, turns out it was David Harrison that hit that fan. J.O. didn't help matters by not leaving & wanting to fight the entire section. 25 games will probably be lightened a little but I bet not by a lot. Given his past it's hard to say if this is to long or not. But I guess I'll go with thinking this is a little much.

4. Stern, or as he's known around here Lucifer. As a Pacers fan I feel F#cked. But unlike some of my fellow fans I don't blame Stern for this. He had to hit & he had to hit hard. He was facing a societal problem & one in which he had the ability to control. If we could all step away from being Pacers fans for a moment we would see that he is being universally praised for his action. He is telling the player (who he has control over) that if you go into the stands these are the serious consequences you will face. Anything less than this & he would be being grilled alive by the media in general & were not talking sports media here folks. He would have been grilled by all the networks, newspapers & such. I know that we hate the fact that fans in Detroit got to basically ruin our season. But that is beyond Sterns control. Sure he can fine the Pistons for something & he even gave Ben Wallace an above average suspension for what he did (I know we all want him gone with Ron but let's be honest most on court scuffles end with a 2 game suspension & that is with fist being thrown) But Stern can't fine the fans who did this. His only authority is with the player & it is a wide ranging authority & anybody who thinks that the players union will get this away from him is nuts. The rest of the league is in lock step with him on this & so are his large corp. sponsors. So to clarify, although I'm not thrilled with the way Stern handled this, I do understand.

5. Ron's future. Look, I'm not a hypocrit about this, so I can't be confused with jumping ship because he's in trouble. I've been telling you guys for a couple of years now that Ron was going to be the downfall of the team. I had no idea this would be the downfall. I can't imagine him doing any more harm to this franchise if he tried. Like I said about three weeks ago when that little incident happened, if you didn't see the problem with Ron by then you never would & true to form some of you are going to go down defending this guy. He is a hell of a basketball player, but sometimes that just isn't enough. I think Ron has played his last game for our team & if not anything the guy does from this time forward the management deserves. Now to true Ron fans, you have my deepest sympathy. My favorite player melted down just before he left as well (not nearly on the collosal scale that Ron did) so I know the feeling. But sometimes you just have to cut the chord.

Ok, I'd like everybody's opinion on thes points & feel free to blast mine cause I know some of you will.:angel:

FiestyFosterFanatic
11-23-2004, 02:03 AM
So Harrison hit someone too?

NewType
11-23-2004, 02:08 AM
3. J.O. If I haven't pissed off my fellow Pacer fans before I sure will now. The man was getting up off of his back when J.O. ran from the side & clocked him. BTW, John Ewdwards was standing with J.O. there was no other fan scuffle as we've heard on here. J.O. looked over his shoulder & saw A.J. punching the guy & came running. I do not buy the defense of the guy was on the floor so everybody should clock him. Bull. Does that mean if a fan runs on the floor the Police should shoot him? No. & even if it does make sense to hit a person on the floor how much is enough? One punch? Two punches? Every member of the team & staff? The man was on his knees trying to get up & J.O. just clocked him. Of course I'm not sure what hurt worse the fact that J.O. hit him so hard or the fact that while he was on his back the first thing he saw when he opened his eyes was the score board that read Pacers 97 Detroit 82 Now in O'Neals defense I thought all along he was the trouble in the tunnel, turns out it was David Harrison that hit that fan. J.O. didn't help matters by not leaving & wanting to fight the entire section. 25 games will probably be lightened a little but I bet not by a lot. Given his past it's hard to say if this is to long or not. But I guess I'll go with thinking this is a little much.

I thought that before he punched the guy, AJ was down and the guy was getting up to approach AJ. So, that's why JO ran to punch that guy.

Kstat
11-23-2004, 02:10 AM
Well Peck, you're thought pretty much mirror mine, especially in the area of David Stern, who was never a forum favorite here to BEGIN with, who I think is simply trying to make the best out of a bad situation.

As for JO- I do think that if a fan was charging him, he had a right to clock him. However, the fact he applied the teachings of Liu Kang, Shang Tsung and Kung Lao to a fat man who was struggling just to peel himself off the court, paints him in a very unfavorable light.

To clarify, fans have NO right to be on the court. Simply stepping onto the court should make them subject to arrest and proscecution. But if they aren't attacking the players, I dont know if the players have a right to beat them senseless.

Peck
11-23-2004, 02:14 AM
Ok first to truwarier.

Yes, Harrison clocked a fan on in the bleachers going out the runway. He then fell to the floor & was swarmed on by a minon of Jackals. The guy Harrison hit had just thrown a cup full of liquid on J.O. Why Harrison though he should hit him I'll never know, it was at this time that the chair came flying.

To MIPacers. No, A.J. was being pulled away & the guy was on his knees looking at Johnson & it looked to me like he was saying "enough". But I can't swear to this. He never even saw J.O. coming until just seconds before he hit him. Both of his arms were out foward in a nonthreating fashion. BTW, it is impressive that he did manage to hang onto his bag of goodies he had the entire time.

BTW, it also appears to me that he never even wanted to fight Ron or A.J., it was his friend that Ron hit & it looked to me like he was just trying to seperate them. But that is just speculation on my part.

tora tora
11-23-2004, 02:17 AM
The guy Jermaine punched attacked Ron first, so he deserved to be hit. I think JO's punched resembled Jax's sliding punch in MK3.

Jose Slaughter
11-23-2004, 02:19 AM
Peck

I'm in full agreement on the first 3.

As far as Stern goes, he made it clear that the suspensions were only for the on court behavior of the players. I took that to mean that further action will be taken at a later date against non-players, meaning the Piston franchise.

If his actions over the weekend & in the coming days curbs the problem that the NBA is facing then I am more than willing to accept it.

Lastly, on Artest. I am a big fan of Artest the basketball player but don't care for his evil twin, P.R. Nightmare.

I can't say, no team will take him because somebody will. But we might have to find a way to void his contract or buy him out. I wish he could stay & help this team win a couple rings but I just don't think he can remained focused enough to do so. Too bad to, he has more heart than anyother player in the league.

I guess we are pretty much in agreement on all 5 points.

SoupIsGood
11-23-2004, 02:27 AM
I don't think Ron's suspension is what he deserved, but probably is the best thing that could happen to him. He'll have an entire year to think things over, and most likely a new bottom-dweller team to start over with.

Jackson's penalty was right. JO's was by far to much, 10-15 would be right.

Stern was only wrong in the length of JO's suspension (Artest's is arguable), and how he went about the suspensions. He made them seem personal and like he was "sending a message". That is wrong, they should not seem so personal, like Stern has some grudge against the three players.

Steveman
11-23-2004, 02:53 AM
I felt the punishment was excessive and absurd. Maxwell got 10 games, but then again, he wasn't a Pacer.

David Stern is a dictator of mamoth proportions. No one should be allowed to command such absolute power in the United States Of America. Not even the president has that much power. It's time to clip David Sterns wings and limit his power. IMO, some sort of governing body should be put in place.

Bball
11-23-2004, 03:05 AM
There are mitigating circumstances and I won't argue that. If this was any other Pacer I'd be a little more willing to blast the NBA for their reaction (as it pertains to Artest). But Artest has a history of being in this position. That just can't be overlooked. Not at this point in time. Too many questionable days are in his past.

The problem I am having in sorting out the happenings is how to judge and understand things once the powder keg exploded. I don't know... what did Sjax see (or hear) or thought he saw or heard in the stands? Did he see someone throw 'something' at Artest and react when Artest did? What did any Pacer see or hear and believe in those moments of confusion?

I can't believe the players suddenly thought "Hey, cool... I can clock these a--holes!"

And none of this happens if the fans had any civility. The guy who threw the cup never should've felt he could have gotten away with that. There should have been some security serving as a deterrant to that type of behavior. Also, security should've been close enough to have the guy before Artest could get to him.

Just because what Ben Wallace did happens 'all the time' in the NBA in the 'heat of battle' doesn't mean it is right. This time it incited the crowd. He should have to pay the price for that and it is atleast (IMO) on par with JO's transgressions and therefore I see those needed to be handled the same.

That he incited the crowd and the Pistons didn't have enough security to control them is once again a problem the Pistons should be paying for.

The Pacers crossed over the line but the Pistons put them in that position. Artest being 'gone' for the year is one thing but the other Pacers suspensions I see as too harsh when considered with:

The mitigating circumstances

The need to balance the punishment so that Detroit doesn't actually GAIN from this

Their record as NBA players on and off the court

The fact of Artest's history and actions here should make him bear the brunt.

-
I would've like to have seen lessened suspensions with fines and a probationary period for some.

-

As for Wallace... he was playing with fire. Normally it gets extinquished. This time he caught the couch on fire. The NBA should've come down harder on him and should also look to come down harder on fighting in general.

As soon as he pushed Artest, a thumb should've been in the air and he should've been immediately escorted from the court. He should not have been allowed to stand on the court and make threats, throw towels/wristbands, etc.. That it wasn't handled that way is one more mitigating circumstance.

2 wrongs don't make a right.... And it isn't going to fix anything to not acknowledge the institutional breakdown that took place in the Palace.

---

I'm wondering if the Pacers are now looking into voiding Artest's contract on grounds he breached a 'personal responsibility/image' type clause. I also wonder if the back channel communications might be mentioning if JO (and possibly SJax) could have their suspensions reduced that we guarantee Artest is finished as a Pacer?

I'm sure that wouldn't break Stern's heart.

---

With the media glare now fully shining on Artest this will cast a LONG shadow. He will be taunted.... And he will be tainted for his whole career. Truthfully, the pressure will be greater than ever. Does anyone think he can handle it? He'll be a lightning rod like never before and I'm not sure who wants to be standing near him the next time lightning strikes.

I'm having a hard time believing that Walsh, Bird, Simons, et al are really standing up for Artest.

I worry about the fans this year. I think FOR A WHILE it will be fine. But what if this makeshift lineup can't win? Will the bandwagon sunshiners and casual fans hop off the bandwagon? Will some fans turn on the team? Are some fans already turned off by the team? I'm not talking diehards or the eternally optimistic.... I'm talking fans that are with the team win or tie. Or fans that don't believe the team can lose and think we won't miss a beat.

I need my Coach Norman Dale quote:
"I'd hope you support us for who we are... Not who we are not"

Soooo.... uhhhhhh what was the question? ;)

-Bball

Peck
11-23-2004, 03:25 AM
The one thing where I think that Stern made a mistake on was stating that the Refs. were in the correct position.

They were not in the position that I've ever seen during a player dispute. I've never once seen two refs. stand on either corner with their hands on their hips.

Once Nunez put Ron on the bench & both teams went to the middle Nunez literally slid to the side thus makeing all three refs. triangulated around the teams. Great view no doubt. But totally useless in defusing the situation. If this is the correct stance for the refs. A. I've never seen it B. it's totally wrong.

Uncle Buck stated in another thread & I'll reiterate it here. If Joey Crawford was the Ref. this would never have happened.

Steveman
11-23-2004, 03:41 AM
see below, added quote

Steveman
11-23-2004, 03:45 AM
the Refs. ... were not in the position that I've ever seen during a player dispute. I've never once seen two refs. stand on either corner with their hands on their hips.

Once Nunez put Ron on the bench & both teams went to the middle Nunez literally slid to the side thus makeing all three refs. triangulated around the teams. Great view no doubt. But totally useless in defusing the situation. If this is the correct stance for the refs. A. I've never seen it B. it's totally wrong.


That is where this whole unbelievable surrealistic nightmare began. The way things were allowed to linger, and linger, and linger. It was almost as if it were by design.

sixthman
11-23-2004, 04:06 AM
Any reason why the following is not relevant:

Nine years ago Vernon Maxwell got 10 games and a $20,000 fine from David Stern for going into the seats and hitting a fan who was taunting him.

Charles Barkley got one game for spitting on a child (his aim was bad as his target was a nearby adult verbal abuser.) ;)

I'm not buying that the severity of the penalties was justified.

The fact is Artest was provoked by external sources to a much greater degree than Maxwell or Barkley. Yet Ron loses almost a full year's salary and gets over seven times the amount of suspended games than Maxwell, and 70 times the penalty that was handed down to Barkley.

I am appaled that Pacers fans, above all, fall into the "Ron got what he deserved" category because precedent was certainly not used in passing down the sentence, if you look at the Maxwell and Barkley cases.

Then why have the penalties handed out by Stern for essentially the same crime taken a quantum leap?

I'll need to think more about that, but I think much has to do with the fact that Artest is an easy public relations target upon which Stern can pass blame for this incident. He's a modern day version of Latrell Sprewell.

Let's face it, Ron's image is not politically correct in middle America. Come to think of it, the NBA's image is not the greatest with middle America, either.

To me the real culprits last Friday were the hypocrisy and greed of the NBA and Detroit management. That incident would not have happened the way it did, if blatant alcohol abuse had not occured, and if the NBA marketing boys hadn't concocted the screwy idea that fans are a part of the game on the floor.

Also, the officials were absolutely ineffective in establishing control and restoring order.

I have read that the Pistons kept alcohol sales open after the third quarter and I find this fact most discomforting.

I also believe that the NBA has created a fantasy for fans attending game: {Okay, sixth man get on your feet and go crazy - you can will this team to victory and dull the senses of the opponents with your deafening noise. Ready sixth man. LET'S GET CRAZY). No wonder hundreds of lunatics, drunk and otherwise, became personally involved when Ben Wallace flipped out and tried to tear Artest apart.

Pro basketball fans at the game are treated pretty much the same way by NBA marketing folks as
fans at a "professional" wrestling event.

That last point is not well said, but maybe somebody will complete my thoughts in this area.

At any rate, from the heart of my bottom I revile the decision handed down by Chief Justice Stern. :p

The decision is unfair to Ron Artest, the Pacers organization, and, to those of us who give our heart and soul to this team.

I want a reasonable penalty for Ron and his "I got your back" buddies. Then I want to see a Pacers team on the floor that resembles the team the wife and I shelled out several thousand hard earned dollars to see.

Vicious Tyrant
11-23-2004, 06:20 AM
Peck, I have to disagree with your assessment of the media universally praising Stern.

I listened to ESPN radio most of yesterday and I thought the consensus was Stern reacted appropriately to the Pacers, but made a completely one sided decision. I was hearing a lot, a lot of criticism toward him for not holding the Piston fans accountable and setting the stage for further beer throwing on players a fan wants to eliminate.

Am I off base here?

:confused:

Outsider
11-23-2004, 11:31 AM
Peck, I have to disagree with your assessment of the media universally praising Stern.

I listened to ESPN radio most of yesterday and I thought the consensus was Stern reacted appropriately to the Pacers, but made a completely one sided decision. I was hearing a lot, a lot of criticism toward him for not holding the Piston fans accountable and setting the stage for further beer throwing on players a fan wants to eliminate.

Am I off base here?

:confused:


I agree. Instead of listening to the sports stations last night I turned on CNN. For an hour this was the main thing pointed out. Suspensions or no, there has been no deterant given to prevent a fan from doing this again. If nothing there is a greatly added bonus of possibly elliminating a competing teams prime players.

RWB
11-23-2004, 11:31 AM
Any reason why the following is not relevant:

Nine years ago Vernon Maxwell got 10 games and a $20,000 fine from David Stern for going into the seats and hitting a fan who was taunting him.

Charles Barkley got one game for spitting on a child (his aim was bad as his target was a nearby adult verbal abuser.) ;)

I'm not buying that the severity of the penalties was justified.

The fact is Artest was provoked by external sources to a much greater degree than Maxwell or Barkley. Yet Ron loses almost a full year's salary and gets over seven times the amount of suspended games than Maxwell, and 70 times the penalty that was handed down to Barkley.

I am appaled that Pacers fans, above all, fall into the "Ron got what he deserved" category because precedent was certainly not used in passing down the sentence, if you look at the Maxwell and Barkley cases.

Then why have the penalties handed out by Stern for essentially the same crime taken a quantum leap?

I'll need to think more about that, but I think much has to do with the fact that Artest is an easy public relations target upon which Stern can pass blame for this incident. He's a modern day version of Latrell Sprewell.

Let's face it, Ron's image is not politically correct in middle America. Come to think of it, the NBA's image is not the greatest with middle America, either.

To me the real culprits last Friday were the hypocrisy and greed of the NBA and Detroit management. That incident would not have happened the way it did, if blatant alcohol abuse had not occured, and if the NBA marketing boys hadn't concocted the screwy idea that fans are a part of the game on the floor.

Also, the officials were absolutely ineffective in establishing control and restoring order.

I have read that the Pistons kept alcohol sales open after the third quarter and I find this fact most discomforting.

I also believe that the NBA has created a fantasy for fans attending game: {Okay, sixth man get on your feet and go crazy - you can will this team to victory and dull the senses of the opponents with your deafening noise. Ready sixth man. LET'S GET CRAZY). No wonder hundreds of lunatics, drunk and otherwise, became personally involved when Ben Wallace flipped out and tried to tear Artest apart.

Pro basketball fans at the game are treated pretty much the same way by NBA marketing folks as
fans at a "professional" wrestling event.

That last point is not well said, but maybe somebody will complete my thoughts in this area.

At any rate, from the heart of my bottom I revile the decision handed down by Chief Justice Stern. :p

The decision is unfair to Ron Artest, the Pacers organization, and, to those of us who give our heart and soul to this team.

I want a reasonable penalty for Ron and his "I got your back" buddies. Then I want to see a Pacers team on the floor that resembles the team the wife and I shelled out several thousand hard earned dollars to see.




Everything stated by sixthman is right on. David Stern has just opened a can of worms because he went off as half-cocked as Ron Artest. Compared to other suspensions how can you pull these numbers out of your ***.

Here's the BIG PROBLEM FOLKS......What do you think the players are saying behind the scenes when the cameras aren't on? Oh the commisioner is a good guy and he had to do this, blah, blah, blah. No, just wait till they get together to discuss the new CBA. This will be brought up and be a big sore point with the players. Dictator Stern has just made the gap wider between management and players. Not only is our season screwed this year get ready for lockout number two.

Arcadian
11-23-2004, 11:37 AM
I don't think it is really fair to watch the video and say this was the guy's intent. You don't know what was being said or what happened when the camera was not on them. Also you have no idea what it felt to be there reacting in real time . These players did not have the benefit of tivo before deciding to act.

I am fine with the suspension but Stern failed miseribly to address the problem and hold all parties accountable. I don't buy for a second there is nothing Stern can do about Fans or the Detriot organization. Stern can take away Beer sales, home games, season tickets or draft picks. There should be a fine against the Palace at least as much as the players are going to lose that will trickle down to the fans as well. Not fair? Well, Stern could take away their three leading scorers and Championship aspirations like he did to the Pacer fans.

As it happened Stern punished the easy target and absolved customer and owners. Sterns judgement was all about money and who has it.

Bball
11-23-2004, 12:18 PM
If no more happens to Detroit than the current suspensions and whatever law enforcement does (which will ultimately be less severe than a traffic ticket, if they do anything at all) then the Pacer suspensions are WAY over the top. Even Artest altho I completely understand he has made himself the easy target and his history = aggrivating circumstances. So I'd be willing to let Artest's suspension stand and I totally understand the Pacers cutting their losses and never letting Artest suit up again.

But... that said....

The precedent was 10 games and that sounds more in line with a fair punishment for JO and Jax to me. Especially considering what Detroit is getting (as of now).

I also believe the decision came down too fast. The indefinate suspensions were fine but I think there ultimately needed to be some time involved to let some perspective filter in here before issuing the ultimate decision.

The Pacers should not entirely bear the brunt of this. There was clearly provocation and the incident was clearly started by Detroit (both with the crowd and Ben Wallace). That is a sticking point I have. Stern should've lowered the hammer much harder on Detroit with some very harsh words and the warning that some unique (for the NBA) punishments are being considered for them even if he wasn't prepared to dole them out just yet. His press conference pretty much left the Pacers hung out tp dry and bear the repercussions (on and off the court) of all this while Detroit actually gains on the court. That is just wrong.

I also believe the early reports of 30-20-20-5 day suspensions were a trial balloon floated to see the general reaction (too soft, too tough) and base the final decision upon that. The problem with that is it was so close to the event that knee jerk reactions would skew the thoughts... including the thoughts of the media.

I'm sure my opinions on this will ebb and flow as more info comes to light and as I process the event more in my own mind.

-Bball

RWB
11-23-2004, 12:44 PM
I'm sure my opinions on this will ebb and flow as more info comes to light and as I process the event more in my own mind.

-Bball

Bball I wish you had been advising Stern.

Alabama-Redneck
11-23-2004, 01:02 PM
I have been up and down the entire scale of emotions.I feel Ron's suspension might be excessive but not by much. I do hope and pray that Pacer management does not discard Ron like an empty bottle. Help him as he needs more help now than ever before.

They do not need to be as concerned about Ron, the basketball player, as they do about Ron, the human being, who needs help from a psychiatrist. Help him salvage his life and maybe his basketball career but don't turn your back on him. After all, he still is a member of the Pacer family.

Outsider
11-23-2004, 01:12 PM
I have been up and down the entire scale of emotions.I feel Ron's suspension might be excessive but not by much. I do hope and pray that Pacer management does not discard Ron like an empty bottle. Help him as he needs more help now than ever before.

They do not need to be as concerned about Ron, the basketball player, as they do about Ron, the human being, who needs help from a psychiatrist. Help him salvage his life and maybe his basketball career but don't turn your back on him. After all, he still is a member of the Pacer family.

Well said! We forget he is just 25 years old. I know I did some stupid things when I was 25, but you learn from then and as you get older you get wiser. There are countless examples in the NBA of hotshot 20somethings that become respected 30somethings....(Reggie?).

Skaut_Ech
11-23-2004, 01:53 PM
Okay, I don't want to get a legal about this, but I want to isolate something that I want you guys to consider. I'll try to not be too long-winded.

Here in Indiana, we have a charge called provocation. Off the top of my head, the statute basically says behavior that would cause a reasonable person to attack them. i.e., if A guy runs up to me and yells "******", and I hit him, the guy could be charged with provocation and I have a bit of a defense on battery charges. Why do I brong this up?

Let's take the stance that given the heated atmosphere of the game and the history between our teams, could the fan who FIRST threw the beer be guilty of a comparable charge of provocation?

Reason I say this, is that when Ron went into the stands, he didn't throw a punch, he GRABBBED the guy and shook him. In Indiana, that's the difference between and A or B misdemeanor charge. Hit=A, grab=b (Unless there was pain involved.)

The only punches I saw Ron make were self defensive. (A fan rushes him and squares off like he's going to throw a punch, the fan who punched him from behind after Ron grabbed the first fan.)

Okay, just letting you in my head a bit (Shiver..scared some of you, I know.) to see where I'm coming from.

As to Peck's questions, I'm just focusing on one aspect; Ron:

1. Ron Artest season long suspension-It was WAY over the top and a real "rush to judgement" by Stern. I think if you really look at it, an arguement can be made that beyond the intitial grabbing, every punch thrown was self defense. That being said, I AGREE with Stern in the sense that he's obviously doing this for the chilling effect it will have on possible future incident of players going after fans. I don't think it was fair, but I think it needed to be done.

I agree with Stern's decisions, but I don't think he weighed all the factors. I think he wanted to drop the hammer as quickly as possible and did, but ultimately I think his decision on suspensions was appropriate. Not a popular opinion around here, I'm sure, but hey, that's my thinking.

That being said, I'm hoping that arbitration will lessen Ron's suspension, given the reasons I stated above, ultimately sending the players a message and leaving Ron room to come back a bit sooner.

I just wish Stern had made a big effort to address the fans. I know he has no power over that, but I wish he'd really pointed a finger at the Detroit fans.

(On a personal note, I don't think Ron will ever be "right". I used to be acquainted with Jennifer, the mother of his youngest child. Granted, the stories I got from her were one sided, but Ron just seems to be a fundamentally disturbed guy. He used to pull some crap with her that worried me. I won't get into it here, but let me just say that off court, he seemed to pull some ignorant moves that were as bone-headed as his on-court stuff. Stern has to have an inkling about some of this. Especially given that the Pacers brass helped stonewall investigators who've tried to speak with them about Ron in the past. I think Stern HAD to do this to Ron. Even given what I feel are the mitigatiing circumstances I mentioned.)

Shade
11-23-2004, 02:26 PM
For those defending Stern, you have to understand that he took the opportunity to clean up several years of tarnish that HE put on this league in one fell swoop. Everything that he has done (or not done) to allow things to get to the level they have, he has taken out on the Pacers. That's why I hate the jerk. He is smug and corrupt and should be removed from his position.

geekman
11-23-2004, 02:37 PM
I agree with sixthman and RWB and bball (I think I got that right). Stern is basically allowing the public to try Artest and the Pacers and then basing the punishment on that. It is far easier to just let the Pacer's absorb most of the blame for this, because that deflects it from himself. I also agree very much with Scott H's analysis. I disagree though about Stern and the fans. Stern doesn't have the power to punish the fans for their behaviour in the past, but he absolutely has the power to curtail and prevent behaviour like this in the future. Hmmm... I have an idea.

RWB
11-23-2004, 02:39 PM
A few Dr.s I know who like to talk Pacers basketball believe Artest has IED (Intermittent Explosive Disorder) and believe he is still worth salvaging. So Skaut don't give up on Artest yet.

Skaut_Ech
11-23-2004, 03:30 PM
One thing I'd like to see is a uniform, consistant level of security at all arenas, mandated by Stern.

One thing that struck me about this situation is OUR security. Have you noticed that we had IPD officers whose job is to sit FACING the crowd during the games? I always though this was a great idea. If someone threw a cup during one of our games, there's a high probability that the officer would have seen who through it and it may have had a more deterrant effect on it even happening.

Another thing that I've wondered about is what deterrant effect a uniformed officer would have had.

What if the moment Ron took of into the stands, a uniformed cop, who should have been sitting next to the bench, went up into the stands on his heels? How many people would have seen the uniform and backed off?

I know Stern has no power over the fans, but I'd like to see him address them, none-the-less. Thing is, he's too afriad of pissing them off and lowering attendance, that he'd rather make the Pacers the sacrificial lambs.

Stern would get a little of my respect by trying to influence the fans and security. (And make no bones about it, no level ofd security could have stopped what happened, but it could have minimized the severity of what happened.)

Millerartest
11-23-2004, 10:46 PM
I have been changing my mind on things after learning more info, though I do think that JO's suspension was excessive, and had nothing more to with the fact that his punch looked the worst as captured by the cameras on TV. It was on the court, and that should bear no more than about 10 games. How that is close to Stephen Jackson who I want gone gone gone from this team does not make any sense.

Artest's suspension was also excessive since he was provoked at least four times, twice by Ben, taunting by the fans, and then the cup from the fans. Throwing a cup of ice on someone is tantamount to assault, especially when ice can be sharp and has the potential to cut like a knife. Artest reacted. The NBA has been giving him a raw deal ever since he got a bad rep. Witness the flagrant against Philly.

Stern pleases the people he needs to please. My issues with him are that 1) He did virtually nothing to discourage fans from doing the same thing again in the press conference 2) He seems to have no formal way for going about the suspensions, as he admits, but just kind of makes them up as he goes along; whatever Stern feels is fair, that's what his suspension is going to be.

As for Artest's future with the Pacers, I just don't know. He's been my second favorite since he came here, next to Reggie. He was having such a great year, and is so dangerous. If he could make amends and get his life in gear, then I'm all for it. If Artest does get his act together, and continues in the NBA for a long career, I'm sure he'll win a championship along the way. First and foremost, get rid of Jackson.

Will Galen
11-23-2004, 11:46 PM
Any reason why the following is not relevant:

Nine years ago Vernon Maxwell got 10 games and a $20,000 fine from David Stern for going into the seats and hitting a fan who was taunting him.

Charles Barkley got one game for spitting on a child (his aim was bad as his target was a nearby adult verbal abuser.) ;)

I'm not buying that the severity of the penalties was justified.

The fact is Artest was provoked by external sources to a much greater degree than Maxwell or Barkley. Yet Ron loses almost a full year's salary and gets over seven times the amount of suspended games than Maxwell, and 70 times the penalty that was handed down to Barkley.

I am appaled that Pacers fans, above all, fall into the "Ron got what he deserved" category because precedent was certainly not used in passing down the sentence, if you look at the Maxwell and Barkley cases.

Then why have the penalties handed out by Stern for essentially the same crime taken a quantum leap?




I'm reading/hearing that Stern doesn't want this to happen again so he's making an example of Artest and the other Pacer players.

To start, I disagree with making an example out of someone because it's not fair. Also punishment should fit the crime, not what someone has done in the past. Artest should have received what Maxwell received. Let the law handle the rest. Stern over reacted just like everyone else.

Also Stern shouldn't be the last word in punishment. Stern and the NBA deciding each case on it's merits sounds good but doesn't work very well, because it's to arbitrary. The NBA should have a 'crime and punishment list,' where if a player does something he automatically gets the punishment. For instant, if a player goes in the stands he automatically gets ten games. I could see the punishment rising for each infraction too. Say a player goes in the stands a second time he gets 20 games, he goes in a third time 40 games, etc.

However, they are never going to legislate violence out of sports. No matter what penalty or punishment is set up for something someone will incur that punishment. Over in the middle east they take your fingers off for stealing, it does cut down on stealing but there are people missing fingers on both hands. If people will do something that will lose them they fingers or (even their life) you can't stop them from doing things when they get mad. They call it "losing your temper' for a reason.

I look for the penalty's to be reduced after everything has settled down. Hit them with a big penalty to start with and after everything had calmed down a bit reduce it. Maybe that is Sterns intent.

pacerpride
11-24-2004, 12:22 AM
IMO there are a couple of things other than Artest's mental health that has contributed to his downfall:

1. ESPN and its constant coverage of anything perceived to be negative. They'll not only beat a dead horse but carve it up and snack on it for days, weeks and in this case all year long - especially since they now have NBA rights. That's how people's perception of Ron Artest is hammered home. This perception is what ultimately leads to David Stern's decision to appease the masses and throw the hammer down.

2. The advent of the flagrant foul. Now everybody gets to keep score on cheap shots. Just think how many games Rick Mahorn, Dennis Rodman and Bill Laimbeer would have been suspended if this system was in place years ago. They too would be considered thugs rather than just "physical" players. It's almost comical to hear Pistons' fans talk about Artest as a thug when they've cheered on many of the game's most "physical" players over the years.

Personally, I probably would have done the same thing given that situation. I probably would have to be sure who actually threw the beer before I attacked but I don't blame Artest one bit. Think about the verbal abuse that the players have to take all game long and then to top it all off, the same guy that's probably called him every name in the book throws a cup of beer on him from 20 feet.

I'm a huge fan and have been for 25+ years. This moment has upset me like no other in the sports world but I'm still supportive of Ron. I love the toughness that he gives to our otherwise soft team with the exception of Freddie and possibly Harrison. He probably has submarined our season by his actions but I'm staying behind him. I think this time off will serve him well. I doubt that we'll get to reap the benefits of his "sabbatical" but I hope we do.

I also am a current subscriber to the "conspiracy theory" and believe these suspensions would not have been as severe for a larger market team. Ultimately, it's all about the Benjamins.

sixthman
11-24-2004, 12:23 AM
Considering the close proximity of fans and the intensity of some NBA games, it probably is amazing that nine years has passed since the last attack of a fan by a player. Artest has gone into the stands before and I believe that fact probably figured into Stern's calculation. But, I still think a five million dollar fine and 71 games and the playoffs is too much and is not fair.

Peck
11-24-2004, 05:37 AM
Ok, let's try & look at this from another angle. You are a fast food worker working the serving line. Your co-worker who is a douche bag gets into an argument with you. He shoves you but you don't respond. The line is getting longer & the customers are getting angry because it is a busy lunch hour. Now somebody from the middle of the line nails you with a cup of water they got from the bathroom. You think you see who did it. You in turn tear through the line knocking over another patron to get to the person who you thought did it. You are twice the size of the person who you are holding down & the person in line with him (also a small fry) throws another cup on you to get you to leave his buddy alone. Your co-worker working the fry machine slugs him & all hell breaks loose.

Now all is said & done. Do you think your employer continues your employment? Take away my fast food service & change it to any form of normal world employment & then tell me which place you get to keep your job if you have caused such mahem?

Peck
11-24-2004, 05:41 AM
One thing I'd like to see is a uniform, consistant level of security at all arenas, mandated by Stern.

One thing that struck me about this situation is OUR security. Have you noticed that we had IPD officers whose job is to sit FACING the crowd during the games? I always though this was a great idea. If someone threw a cup during one of our games, there's a high probability that the officer would have seen who through it and it may have had a more deterrant effect on it even happening.

Another thing that I've wondered about is what deterrant effect a uniformed officer would have had.

What if the moment Ron took of into the stands, a uniformed cop, who should have been sitting next to the bench, went up into the stands on his heels? How many people would have seen the uniform and backed off?

I know Stern has no power over the fans, but I'd like to see him address them, none-the-less. Thing is, he's too afriad of pissing them off and lowering attendance, that he'd rather make the Pacers the sacrificial lambs.

Stern would get a little of my respect by trying to influence the fans and security. (And make no bones about it, no level ofd security could have stopped what happened, but it could have minimized the severity of what happened.)

The additions to last night security was that there were additional unarmed security behind each bench & most notably there were 6 additional unarmed security behind the scoring table.

BTW, who has command of operations at the fieldhouse? I assume it's I.P.D. but there are M.C.S.D. & I.U. police there all the time? Also, not that it is any of my business, but does MECA even work inside the coridors of the house? I think one of the repeater is across the street so coverage should be good but I wondered if you guys had as much trouble in that area as we do?

Arcadian
11-24-2004, 11:20 AM
Ok, let's try & look at this from another angle. You are a fast food worker working the serving line. Your co-worker who is a douche bag gets into an argument with you. He shoves you but you don't respond. The line is getting longer & the customers are getting angry because it is a busy lunch hour. Now somebody from the middle of the line nails you with a cup of water they got from the bathroom. You think you see who did it. You in turn tear through the line knocking over another patron to get to the person who you thought did it. You are twice the size of the person who you are holding down & the person in line with him (also a small fry) throws another cup on you to get you to leave his buddy alone. Your co-worker working the fry machine slugs him & all hell breaks loose.

Now all is said & done. Do you think your employer continues your employment? Take away my fast food service & change it to any form of normal world employment & then tell me which place you get to keep your job if you have caused such mahem?

I am fine with Ron being gone but I don't think your example is fair.

Imagine you worked behind the counter and were heckled by drunken customers about how slow you made fries, told who had slept with you wife the night before, and on occasion recieved racial slurs. Then your employer did nothing to about that situation and even helped create a culture at the work place that heckles the employees.

The NBA shares a large part of the blame.

A couple years ago I got courtside tickets for Christmas. I took my wife and she doesn't remember the game, athleticism or inspired play of a pre-injury Al Harrington. What she remembers is the "fans" beside us heckling the Heat with boarderline racist remarks (comments about nappy hair, dark skin), the dirty looks 'Zo (dude's a pretty intense guy) gave us and how embarrassed she was.

There is a bigger problem than Ron Artest that needs to be dealt with here.

Skaut_Ech
11-24-2004, 12:25 PM
The additions to last night security was that there were additional unarmed security behind each bench & most notably there were 6 additional unarmed security behind the scoring table.

BTW, who has command of operations at the fieldhouse? I assume it's I.P.D. but there are M.C.S.D. & I.U. police there all the time? Also, not that it is any of my business, but does MECA even work inside the coridors of the house? I think one of the repeater is across the street so coverage should be good but I wondered if you guys had as much trouble in that area as we do?

I don't think MECA is in the fieldhouse. I do know that in MSA, they pretty much treated us like we were secondary. "MSA staff will handle any problems. We'll call you if we need you, so stay out of our way." was the attitude I got from them. So I wonder if that mindset spilled over into the Fieldhouse.

This incident has got me curious just how DO they coordinate things. And how is signal strength in there. Any dead spots? IS there some kind of command post? Is everyone on a central channel? I've got some buddies who work the house who I'm going to sak next time I see them.

fwpacerfan
11-24-2004, 12:45 PM
...

1. Ron Artest season long suspension

2. S. Jackson 30 game suspension

3. J. O'Neal 25 game suspension

4. David Stern's handling of the situation

5. Ron Artest future with the Indiana Pacers

...


1. The suspension was over the top. Precedent has to be looked at in this case and Vernon Maxwell is the precedent. I would say 30 games would be about right for Ron.

2. Jackson's is about right. He was just as wrong as Ron was.

3. JO's was way, way too long. 10 games maximum. The reason Stern gave for Artest were his prior history and his entering the stands. Neither of these apply to JO. As for the punch he threw on the fan, I need to look at my recording again but the 'innocent' fan had actually threw punches at AJ (who's hand was in a cast btw). He had gotten knocked down after throwing the punches and he was getting up to go after AJ again when JO clocked him. Fans have as much right to be on the floor as a player does being in the stands - NONE. The Mike Curtis rule should apply - you enter the field of play and whatever happens, happens.

4. David Stern's handling of this was poor at best. He rushed to judgement. There is no physical way he had the time to look at all of the video evidence, interview all of the players involved, interview all of the fans involved, interview all of the security involved, interview all of the game officials and interview all of the coaches. If he was interested in something more than making sure the marketing machine kept rolling, if he was interested in getting the verdict correct, he would have done all of this. He made his decision in less than 48 hours! That is ludicrous. The man is a tyrant and he has been given way too much power and he has abused it. He obviously realizes he has ESPN by the hangy downy's and he was able to have their commentators completely change their story in less than 8 hours. Stern has been on a witch hunt for Artest for years and to him he views this as a victory. His comment that "apparently his counseling hasn't helped" was very telling. Stern could care less about helping this man. Stern could care less about anything but making pennies.

5. I have no idea on this one. I hope that he has a future with this team. I hope that the team doesn't give up on the man like Stern and the league has. Ron is a man calling for help and someone needs to help him. Mark Jackson even said that the league can't throw him to the curb but that is exactly what Stern did. I would like to see the Pacers rally around Ron and get him help. The scary part for me is that I'm not seeing it yet. I see the players with JO and SJax wristbands and such but I don't see anything for Artest.

beast23
11-24-2004, 12:47 PM
Scott, enlightening, as usual. If Michigan does have “provocation” on their books, I could easily see it used in a defense. Ron was obviously wrong in breaking a barrier that his contract says was not to be broken, but yes, I would agree that he was certainly provoked.

Peck, I agree with most of what you say.

However, I don’t accept that Stern can do nothing to punish the fans for their culpability in this incident. Just the opposite, I believe that Stern can punish the fans, while also punishing the Pistons and the arena owners for their part in the incident.

Stern has it within his authority to fine the Pistons. Just let the fine take on a little bit different form.

Take away 5 home games from the Pistons, with the games to be selected by Stern. I would think one of the games should be the March game against the Pacers. That would punish the Pistons and arena owners for not providing adequate security by taking away about 12-13% of their regular season revenues.

It would also send one hell of a message to the fans that enjoy watching their team play.

Hicks
11-24-2004, 12:52 PM
...

1. Ron Artest season long suspension

2. S. Jackson 30 game suspension

3. J. O'Neal 25 game suspension

4. David Stern's handling of the situation

5. Ron Artest future with the Indiana Pacers

...


1. It was harsh. But does that mean it was too much? I'm still asking myself that question.

2. I really like Stephen Jackson. It's very hard to me to be down on him. I feel his heart was in the right place, but he went the wrong way about showing it. I think his is pretty spot on fair.

3. JO needs his suspension reduced. He did not go into the stands, the fan he hit was already involved in the fighting, and was out on the court in front of our bench. I think that, combined with his SPOTLESS track record, should have cut off 10-15 games off of this 25 game suspension.

4. He rushed it. He didn't hear all the sides, most importantly he didn't hear the side that he dropped the hammer down on. This is wrong. You know you've ****ed up, when Herb frickin' Simon is publically pissed about it. The man never says anything, let alone something to go AGAINST the league, yet he did. That speaks volumes to me. I don't think Stern thought this all the way through, and his "1-0." comment rubbed me wrong.

5. I think we should let him go. Due to his own actions, we're forced to for this entire season. Good; it's time we move on, this forces us to, and by the time he'd be eligible to come back, we will have adjusted, and IMO possibly won a title without him.

fwpacerfan
11-24-2004, 01:04 PM
Scott, enlightening, as usual. If Michigan does have “provocation” on their books, I could easily see it used in a defense. Ron was obviously wrong in breaking a barrier that his contract says was not to be broken, but yes, I would agree that he was certainly provoked.

Peck, I agree with most of what you say.

However, I don’t accept that Stern can do nothing to punish the fans for their culpability in this incident. Just the opposite, I believe that Stern can punish the fans, while also punishing the Pistons and the arena owners for their part in the incident.

Stern has it within his authority to fine the Pistons. Just let the fine take on a little bit different form.

Take away 5 home games from the Pistons, with the games to be selected by Stern. I would think one of the games should be the March game against the Pacers. That would punish the Pistons and arena owners for not providing adequate security by taking away about 12-13% of their regular season revenues.

It would also send one hell of a message to the fans that enjoy watching their team play.


That is a great idea - the best I've seen yet.

bread
11-24-2004, 01:50 PM
Ok, let's try & look at this from another angle. You are a fast food worker working the serving line. Your co-worker who is a douche bag gets into an argument with you. He shoves you but you don't respond. The line is getting longer & the customers are getting angry because it is a busy lunch hour. Now somebody from the middle of the line nails you with a cup of water they got from the bathroom. You think you see who did it. You in turn tear through the line knocking over another patron to get to the person who you thought did it. You are twice the size of the person who you are holding down & the person in line with him (also a small fry) throws another cup on you to get you to leave his buddy alone. Your co-worker working the fry machine slugs him & all hell breaks loose.

Now all is said & done. Do you think your employer continues your employment? Take away my fast food service & change it to any form of normal world employment & then tell me which place you get to keep your job if you have caused such mahem?

The place where you are one of 10-12 people who are better at what you do than anybody else in the world?

bread
11-24-2004, 02:56 PM
1. Ron's suspension- Personally I think that given precedent and his previous transgressions, 50 games would have been more than enough but I think 41 (half the season) would be about right. But I'm not surprised by Adolf Stern's decision and would be shocked if he reduced it. His ego won't allow it.

2. SJax- At first I thought he was just being a thug and going in swinging. But after watching the video closely it appeared to me that he was going in to help Ron and just as he was reaching down to grab Ron the other fan throws his beer right in Ron's face at point blank range. At that point it's just like what Harrison did when the guy threw the beer on JO, Jax defended Artest because at that point he couldn't defend himself. I would say that 15 games is appropriate. Again, not likely that the Furer will lower this one either.

3. JO- This one is the most bogus of them all. From any of the video I've seen he never even left the floor. The only guy he hit was ON THE FREAKING COURT and had already tackled Ron after Ron drilled his buddy. It was a vicious shot that JO delivered though. I would say 5 games, 8 at the most. This is the only one I can see Stern bringing down although it won't come down much, if at all. Which leads me to...

4. Stern- He obviously made a decision based on his own wallet and ego. I understand that our players should be punished harshly for their actions so even though I don't agree with the length of some of the suspensions (especially JO's) I understand them (again, except JO's). But to come down hard on the players while coming off as a tough guy to cover up your own failings as the commissioner where security is concerned is appaulling. He has offered up these players as sacrificial lambs in a blatent attempt to cover his own ***. If he comes out soon and says he is punishing the Pistons in an equitable way and mandating uniformed officers near the players in all stadiums then I might change my tune. But as of now I have yet to hear him say one word about any possible punishment outside of the players. Outrageous!

5. Ron's future- I have always been one to put myself in other people's shoes and be forgiving. Obviously I have had to do that a few times where Ron is concerned and it does get harder each time. I would have to say that even though he is one of the best players in the league and one of the best the Pacers have ever had it may be time to let him go for everybody's benefit. Having said that though, I believe he will never get involved in anymore disturbances on the court. But as long as he is in a Pacers jersey it makes it easier for people to link him to the things he has done here and they (the fans and media) will continue to harrass him every time he even looks at somebody too long. And that will always be something that his teammates and the organization will have to deal with. That's not fair to them or even Ron. A change of scenery would do everybody some good. It did wonders for Spree and I think it would do the same for Ron. I would like to finish by say that as a life-long Pacer fan I want him to stay because he is one of the best players on the planet and can help us win a championship but as human being I think all parties would benefit from a parting of the ways.

Mourning
11-24-2004, 04:29 PM
1. I think Ron's got punished too hard. 40-50 games would have been about the schale that I think he deserved, which even at 40 games is the heaviest punishment besides Sprewell that I can remember.

2. Jackson, he came in swinging, but reacted to the actions of others, there is no debate what so ever that he made the wrong decisions and actions though, VERY wrong. 25 games.

3. JO, he did hit that fun HARD! And even though it should be factored in heavily that fans were coming on the court very aggressively and one of his teammates had just been attacked it was excessive, I'm quite happy he sort of slipped by the way just before he landed his fist on that "fan"'s face. Didn't go into the stands! 15-18 games.

4. How anyone could claim we are not made virtually 100% scapegoats here is beyond me. He CLEARLY rushed to judgment. Offcourse, handing out these absurdly long suspensions to a small franchise is much easier than handing out 20-30 suspensions for VERY appalling actions by players from teams with a large market. He's a coward in my view. Where is Detroit's organization getting punishment. The person who kept escalating towards the point that it was possible for a fan to think it would be "ok" or "safe" to throw something at the opposing player gets away with 6 games. Now THAT is inappropriate! 10-15 games is the amount of games Ben Wallace should have his *** banned from Pistons and in fact ANY NBA games. And talking about reputations ... Detroit HAD one previous to this game, why did THAT not get factored in?

5. I'm a great Artest fan, he's the sort of player that I love the most, a true fighter, like Alonzo Mourning is too. So sad that he's just not stabile enough to be trusted upon any longer. I do wonder how people can still think we can just dump Artest for about nothing and still become champions or finalists? I mean where have you people been? This only happens IF Bender finally succeeds in making a HUGE breakthrough this season, otherwise I'm sorry, but who is going to close down the Kobes and T-Macs in this world while beying MORE than worthwhile on defense too? I mean he was our leading scorer going into the season and our second scorer the last. He got us a TON of free throws by going inside. Don't even try to pretend that Jackson could pick up what Artest did at SF and that Freddie becomes our starting SG. Both are good players, but with all due respect they aren't going to be able what Ron gave us on both ends. IF you disaggree than you basically are saying we didn't need Ron much at all in the first place, while I happen to think he was one of the most important reasons for the Pacers to play as well as they did last season (together with Rick coming). Him leaving will HURT us pretty bigtime if we aren't able to get a quality player back and I'm not talking about ANOTHER bench or back up player.

I'm wondering ... are we eligible to ship Ron to another team before the season ends or in the next summer for an expiring contract in this summer? IF so, how much money would we be having for gaining the services of a reasonable player? Would it be recommendable to throw in a player like Pollard for one HUGE expiring contract? IF so would that be enough to sign a player of lets say Jackson-like quality (just below all-star/good role player)?

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Bball
11-24-2004, 04:34 PM
In SJax's 'defense' he got a pretty good hard shove from Rasheed Wallace as Ben Wallace was charging Artest and the ref doing his best to keep Artest back in case Artest tried anything. That shove on Sjax gets lost in all this but the next time the video plays showing the foul watch SJax instead of Artest and BWallace. I'm sure that is what ratcheted up his blood pressure to begin with. Maybe that makes it a little easier to understand why he was so riled.

The next part of this 'defense' is to say we don't know exactly what he saw or heard on the court or in the stands. He was in a very good position to see Artest get struck by the cup as well as to potentially see who threw it. One of the camera angles is basically the same view as he has and he is just in the shot so we know where he was.

I have no idea if he went into the stands to grab Artest, to point out who did it, to help Artest, or to beat up the guy as well. Once he was there, bedlam broke out.

I'm just saying that some think he was only off the handle for Ben Wallace pushing Artest and there's more to it than that. He did get shoved by Rasheed and that has mostly been missed by the media and fans because when that part of the video plays people are focusing on Artest, the ref, and Ben Wallace.

-Bball

Hicks
11-24-2004, 05:58 PM
To go with what bball said, watch again and you will see Lindsay Hunter talking a lot of **** directly at Jackson before Ron goes up to the stands.

Will Galen
11-24-2004, 08:17 PM
Now all is said & done. Do you think your employer continues your employment? Take away my fast food service & change it to any form of normal world employment & then tell me which place you get to keep your job if you have caused such mahem?

Players of professional sports!

Your analogy isn't very good. One, no one cares about fast food workers but their family's. Two, sports is about giving all you got, it's about being tough, it's about colliding bodies. People routinely get mad when playing sports. Tell me you've never squared off with someone when playing sports. Likely a sibling too.

In short there's no comparison.