PDA

View Full Version : NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'



Pages : [1] 2

Hicks
07-07-2012, 08:31 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/larry-bird-flew-coop-indiana-pacers-billionaire-owner-partly-blame-article-1.1109705

By Mitch Lawrence



Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame

Pacers owner Herb Simon turned down the NBA legend's request to add a scorer, even after the Pacers had problems generating offense against the Miami Heat in their second-round playoff loss.

The old Celtics players network was buzzing after Larry Bird stepped down as Indiana’s president and not because Bird quit after nine seasons in the team’s front office.

Bird told some old teammates that he was actually leaning toward staying on and had indicated that in a meeting in late June with owner Herb Simon when they met to assess the Pacers’ needs. During the sit-down, Bird told Simon he liked the team a lot, but “we just need to add another piece.’’

Nothing doing.

Simon turned down Bird’s request to add a scorer, even after the Pacers had problems generating offense against the Miami Heat in their second-round playoff loss. Bird was thinking about getting into the Eric Gordon sweepstakes to make a run at the Hornets’ restricted free agent and former Indiana University star.

Between health concerns about his shoulder and back and the fact that he doesn’t see himself as a lifer like other execs, including his successor Donnie Walsh, Bird likely used Simon’s rejection as an additional reason to hang it up, one old Celtic said.

Simon, the shopping mall czar, could have easily picked up another big deal, even as the Pacers decided to re-sign point guard George Hill for $40 million over five years, and are expected to match Portland’s bloated $60 million offer sheet to retain starting center Roy Hibbert. According to Forbes, Simon, the chairman and director of the Simon Property Group, the largest publicly traded real estate investment trust in the U.S., had a net worth this past March of $1.8 billion.

But Simon is also known to oppose paying the NBA luxury tax. After leaving, Bird shed some light on what he had to put up with, when asked about making the Pacers better.

“Small market,’’ he said. “It’s tough.’’

The NBA likes its icons, as it has been working behind the scenes with Michael Jordan to try to help get his Bobcats turned around. So it makes sense that the league would want Bird to come back in the future.

“It’s got to be the right job, the right people,’’ he said about running another franchise. “I’ve got some interest in some jobs out there but whether I do it again, who knows.’’

Bird has indicated to former teammates that he’s too old to be part of an ownership group, but it’s not as if he’s a geezer. He’ll turn 56 in December.

We can see a return for Bird down the line, perhaps as a part-owner and the face of a franchise. The NBA will always welcome Larry Legend back, with open arms.



.......... :uhoh:

ilive4sports
07-07-2012, 08:34 PM
If this is true, I am very disappointed in Simon.

Psyren
07-07-2012, 08:34 PM
Yikes.

I worry for our future if Herb wont let us get a scorer.

Ichi
07-07-2012, 08:35 PM
I hope this isn't all true.. Specifically the conversation between Bird and Simon

chrisjacobs7
07-07-2012, 08:36 PM
Gotta spend $ to make $ Herb... if this is your spending plan as a franchise, then you better be prepared to sit back and enjoy losing money every year.

OlBlu
07-07-2012, 08:37 PM
I was sure that Bird left because Simon really wouldn't let him build a winner...... None of this surprises me. I think Bird will sit out a year and comeback with another team in a large market to build an NBA champion......:cool:

Shade
07-07-2012, 08:39 PM
Is this really a surprise to anyone?

Peck
07-07-2012, 08:43 PM
This isn't a smoking gun, but this is exactly what I was afraid of.

After all of the years of trying to build & getting rid of bloated rotten contracts Bird was ready to see his new young team make that next step only to be told that he wouldn't have the resources to do it.

I love what Simon has done for our franchise & I always will appreciate him for that. But if we don't get that extra piece and we don't re-sign Roy and or replace him with equal value then I have to question Simons real commitment to winning it all.

I have a feeling that playoff games and winning season records might just be enough and the more I think about it the more that sounds like the 90's to me.

Again, I'm not going to let an interview with un named sources who used to play with Bird make my final impression but honestly this goes into the pile of "hmmmmm...." when I think about this off season and the upcoming one.

I told Diamond Dave the other night I have a feeling we should have had a parade after this season because I wonder if that is not as good as its going to get.

yoadknux
07-07-2012, 08:46 PM
This sucks

Coupe
07-07-2012, 08:51 PM
**** you simon

billbradley
07-07-2012, 08:52 PM
If Simon didn't want to spend, Hill would of walked. There are much cheaper options.

mildlysane
07-07-2012, 08:53 PM
I tend to believe this article after what has happened so far in the off season. (I know it's not over, but still...)

2minutes twoa
07-07-2012, 08:54 PM
If you don't want to spend the money to build a winner, the SELL THE TEAM!! I don't blame him for not wanting to pay the luxury tax, but anything up to that should be used to build the team!

Hicks
07-07-2012, 08:55 PM
**** you simon

Settle down and show some respect. He deserves it. And he sure as hell deserves better than any Pacer fan having the nerve to say '**** you' to him. Absolutely ridiculous.

billbradley
07-07-2012, 08:56 PM
**** you simon

Beyond what the Simon family has done for us as Pacer fans, you should educated yourself on what they have done for this city, state, and humanity in general.

Pacer Fan
07-07-2012, 08:58 PM
And It could be bent out of context a bit. It maybe just the fact that Simon don't want to bid on RFA's or Max type RFA's, like Eric Gordon. This would make Larry's hands be tied just as well. Larry can't get the big named FA's here and Larry wasn't allowed to bid on big name RFA's. Only very few trades will equate to a for sure big name player either, because if that big name player is walking the walk they just don't get traded for the heck of it.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 08:58 PM
If Simon didn't want to spend, Hill would of walked. There are much cheaper options.

I don't see a binary choice here. It's not a matter of 'Simon doesn't to spend'. Clearly we can see that he's willing to. It's just that that has limits, and unfortunately for those of us who still care deeply about winning a championship... it may be just shy of what we need to really try to make it all the way. 'One piece short.'

Simon has even allowed us to be a tax team in the past, but I think he's been hit hard by the losses over the past 7-ish years, and my hunch is he's a little more reluctant than he used to be. I don't think we'll ever be a tax team again while he's the owner. I think the best we can hope for is spending up to just below the tax.

We may still match Roy, but we're not going to look to add any big names. Our best hope is to replace one or some of our current guys with ones who fit together better to make up for it.

pacerjones20
07-07-2012, 08:59 PM
I was so excited for this team after the heat series but this offseason Is slowing killing it. Match hibbert, sign brand and mayo, and hope we can find a trade mid season I guess.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 09:00 PM
And It could be bent out of context a bit. It maybe just the fact that Simon don't want to bid on RFA's or Max type RFA's, like Eric Gordon. This would make Larry's hands be tied just as well. Larry can't get the big named FA's here and Larry wasn't allowed to bid on big name RFA's. Only very few trades will equate to a for sure big name player either, because if that big name player is walking the walk they just don't get traded for the heck of it.

I've wondered about that. Yet we still at least met with Gordon before he agreed to terms with Phoenix. I don't see why we met with him at all if Simon would never condone making an offer. Maybe Herb doesn't feel he's worth max money, and his reluctance to pursue free agents is partially because he feels they usually get overpaid (by teams wanting to try to force other franchises to let players leave, like Portland is attempting to do to us right now with Roy Hibbert).

Steagles
07-07-2012, 09:01 PM
If this turns out true, I will be so disappointed in Simon.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 09:02 PM
Is this really a surprise to anyone?

Not a surprise, but it's concerning as I still cling to the dream of winning a title someday. My hope is all but gone, though.

Heisenberg
07-07-2012, 09:04 PM
If he said no to Gordon why'd we meet with him?

JB24
07-07-2012, 09:05 PM
Because he didn't want to take 14m+/yr gamble on Gordon (and that's all i'm seeing in this article), does not mean he won't spend.

Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 09:09 PM
Right now it seems like the OJ Mayo deal is falling apart because Pacers won't offer enough. What Herb is doing absolutely sucks for this franchise

mildlysane
07-07-2012, 09:11 PM
Right now it seems like the OJ Mayo deal is falling apart because Pacers won't offer enough. What Herb is doing absolutely sucks for this franchise

It sucks, but ironically, there probably wouldn't be an Indiana Pacers if not for him and his brother.

Shade
07-07-2012, 09:13 PM
Right now it seems like the OJ Mayo deal is falling apart because Pacers won't offer enough. What Herb is doing absolutely sucks for this franchise

I don't want to overpay for Mayo. I'm still kind of annoyed that we overpaid for Hill.

pacer4ever
07-07-2012, 09:13 PM
Is this really a surprise to anyone?

plus 1

I said this the day Bird stepped day you dont go from "I love my job and cant wait to improve my team as long as the talks with Simon goes well"

to quitting in 3 weeks. It was pretty obvious Bird wanted to get an Eric Gordon type RFA and Simon said no which is just sad. Bird isnt stupid he knows we need to add an elite talent and this free agency period was our last chance. Like I said Simon doesnt carry about a championship and not going after Gordon was proof you cant build a player who is a better fit for our team to get to the next level and we refuse to offer him a fair deal.\


Plus when Bird talked to Jackie Mac it was pretty obvious he isn't coming back unless his owner wants to actually let him bulid a championship team.


Simon is out of touch just retaining your own guys wont get us anywhere near a title contender and Bird knew this. We dont have the talent we did in 04 where just retaining would of been enough(if it wasn't for the brawl) we needed this free agency period more than anything.


Gordon or Williams would of been the final piece but Simon is content with just trying to be a 4-8 seed trying to get out of the 2nd rd instead of trying to win it all

If we were going by just retaining you cant build on that model by draft mid teens every year it wont work.

joew8302
07-07-2012, 09:15 PM
I don't see why people are crucifying Simon here. I mean is dropping 60 million over 4 years to a guy who played a total of 9 games last year (in addition to his history of injuries) indicative of a penny pincher or a smart business man? I would have to say the latter.

Also, I have a tough time believing that after all of this time working under Simon than not wanting to go after Gordon caused Bird to step away. I have to believe there is more to it.

Hypnotiq
07-07-2012, 09:16 PM
So we are the new Atlanta Hawks ?

Unclebuck
07-07-2012, 09:18 PM
I read the article twice and it seems highly speculative to me, and I dont really buy it as the article suggests. So Bird tells Simon we need another scorer and Herb refuses, so Bird leaves. Does anyone think it is that simple. Doesn't ring true to me

dal9
07-07-2012, 09:19 PM
this article sounds weak...we are supposed to believe Bird said "I want to add another scorer" and Simon flat-out said "not under any circumstance"? that is very unlikely.

more likely is that simon did not want to offer the max to gordon (good choice!) and/or did not want to pay the luxury tax (which is the stance of almost every owner in the league)...

mildlysane
07-07-2012, 09:19 PM
So we are the new Atlanta Hawks ?

At this point, we can only wish....:(

Pacer Fan
07-07-2012, 09:20 PM
I've wondered about that. Yet we still at least met with Gordon before he agreed to terms with Phoenix. I don't see why we met with him at all if Simon would never condone making an offer. Maybe Herb doesn't feel he's worth max money, and his reluctance to pursue free agents is partially because he feels they usually get overpaid (by teams wanting to try to force other franchises to let players leave, like Portland is attempting to do to us right now with Roy Hibbert).

First, thats the point I put RFA's or Max type RFA's. He doesn't want to pay a max contract to RFA's. Simon said he didn't have a problem bidding on RFA's in that last interview (seemed a little reluctant when asked, I thought). However, Max type RFA's wasn't mentioned. This doesn't stop Larry from bringing them in to test the waters, crossing his fingers that a miracle happens. It would get very annoying to continue that process tho! The best job in the world Larry says and yet he walked away from the team that he grew up with. He had his hands tied and there really isn't any other way about it!

Ozwalt72
07-07-2012, 09:24 PM
If Bird left because of Gordon, that's just stupid. If Bird left because Simon said we couldn't add another scorer, that's just....completely ********. Simon wouldn't do that.

Now, if Bird said there's no way he could build a contender without going over the luxury tax for a couple of years and Simon said "Hell No", that would be believable and completely understandable. There doesn't have to be a bad guy in this situation.

speakout4
07-07-2012, 09:25 PM
I read the article twice and it seems highly speculative to me, and I dont really buy it as the article suggests. So Bird tells Simon we need another scorer and Herb refuses, so Bird leaves. Does anyone think it is that simple. Doesn't ring true to me

Does the bad back, wanting to take a year off, etc. sound more plausible? if this is true, Larry is not coming back to this team and we are stuck with Walsh or a Walsh-like clone. Why it seems plausible is that his decision to not come back was abrupt. However, there appears to be a difference in philosophy between Simon and Bird and whether Eric is involved isn't clear or material..

Eleazar
07-07-2012, 09:30 PM
There has to be more to it than suggested, as there are more (less risky) options than Gordon (Mayo isn't one of them). To me this sounds more like there s a disagreement on how to spend the money to build a team, not that Simon isn't willing to spend.

Speed
07-07-2012, 09:30 PM
Lots of running around with hair on fire going on, on this board, jeez. Gets hard to read, all of the ridiculous absolute statements. Simon doesn't like to go for Restricted FA for multiple reasons, I understand that, doesn't mean he strives for mediocrity or you can never win a championship, but whatever, people are entitled to their overeations.

rock747
07-07-2012, 09:36 PM
This isn't how you build the fanbase back. Fans come to games when they know their team is committed to doing whatever it can to win. Letting Larry Bird (an indiana legend) walk because you won't let him spend enough to turn the team into a contender? ouch.

Hoop
07-07-2012, 09:37 PM
I read the article twice and it seems highly speculative to me, and I dont really buy it as the article suggests. So Bird tells Simon we need another scorer and Herb refuses, so Bird leaves. Does anyone think it is that simple. Doesn't ring true to me
I hope your right. I would hate to think Simon said it in that manner or said it at all.

Chuck Chillout
07-07-2012, 09:40 PM
I read the article twice and it seems highly speculative to me, and I dont really buy it as the article suggests. So Bird tells Simon we need another scorer and Herb refuses, so Bird leaves. Does anyone think it is that simple. Doesn't ring true to me
Yes, very well said. Also, when Bird wanted to add a scorer this year, he did, with Barbosa. Simon didn't veto this.

billbradley
07-07-2012, 09:43 PM
Larry Bird left Pacers job partly due to owner refusing to spend money this offseason

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2012/07/07/larry.bird.left.pacers.job.partly.due.owner.refusi ng.spend.money.offseason?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


Analysts were shocked when Larry Bird announced that he was leaving the Indiana Pacers, as recent reports had the NBA legend hinting at a returning. Besides the health issues which were initially cited, it sounds like Bird had enough of owner Herb Simon refusing to spend money this offseason.

Let's see if the Pacers decide to match the max-level offer sheet restricted free agent Roy Hibbert signed with the Portland Trail Blazers.

According to Mitch Lawrence from nydailynews.com:


Simon turned down Bird’s request to add a scorer, even after the Pacers had problems generating offense against the Miami Heat in their second-round playoff loss. Bird was thinking about getting into the Eric Gordon sweepstakes to make a run at the Hornets’ restricted free agent and former Indiana University star. .... Bird likely used Simon’s rejection as an additional reason to hang it up, one old Celtic said.

------------------------------------------------------------

But Simon is also known to oppose paying the NBA luxury tax. After leaving, Bird shed some light on what he had to put up with, when asked about making the Pacers better.

“Small market,’’ he said. “It’s tough.’’

This is kind of ridiculous. I'm interested to hear the response on 1070 Monday.

QuickRelease
07-07-2012, 09:49 PM
Bird isnt stupid he knows we need to add an elite talent and this free agency period was our last chance.
I don't know that I would say this is our last chance. That's a bit too doom and gloom for me. Also, it's not like the season is starting tomorrow. Who knows what the remainder of this offseason holds. :)

Coupe
07-07-2012, 09:51 PM
..i was jokin'. I just don't think he would say no to adding a scorer. should have put quotations lol

rock747
07-07-2012, 09:51 PM
I thought Jackie Macmullan was on 1070 this past week and said something along the lines that she thinks bird will end up back on a team that will open up the wallet a little more.... she talked to him or something... she seemed to kind of reiterate this same sentiment. Sometimes reality hurts.

pacer4ever
07-07-2012, 09:54 PM
I don't know that I would say this is our last chance. That's a bit too doom and gloom for me. Also, it's not like the season is starting tomorrow. Who knows what the remainder of this offseason holds. :)

name an all star quality guy who can get to the rim at will and shoot like both Deron and Eric can. This was our last shot to add before paying our own. Literally Deron and EJ fit the bill of our last remaining key piece we needed to a tee but we didnt go after one of them.

Who knows what the reminder of the off season holds??? I know one thing we aren't getting a difference maker to take us to a championship caliber team like we could of if we went after one RFA.


It's fine if you want to sugar coat and be unrealistic it but im not really into that kind of thing.

Pacer Fan
07-07-2012, 09:54 PM
I don't know that I would say this is our last chance. That's a bit too doom and gloom for me. Also, it's not like the season is starting tomorrow. Who knows what the remainder of this offseason holds. :)

If this offseason isn't our last chance to get an elite scorer ie. Eric Gordon. Then explain how else Pacers are going to get an elite scorer? I think Pacer4ever is completely correct! Eric is an Addition to without the subtraction off!

mildlysane
07-07-2012, 09:56 PM
I thought Jackie Macmullan was on 1070 this past week and said something along the lines that she thinks bird will end up back on a team that will open up the wallet a little more.... she talked to him or something... she seemed to kind of reiterate this same sentiment. Sometimes reality hurts.

Bird himself said it in the interview.

PR07
07-07-2012, 10:10 PM
If Simon didn't want to spend, Hill would of walked. There are much cheaper options.

Still believe there was "nothing" to the "Simon wouldn't spend" grumblings? Like I said, often when there's smoke, there's fire. This even adds to the suspicion that Simon's willingness to spend is a legitimate concern. I don't know if it's fact, but there sure seems to be some reason to believe it at this point.

Sandman21
07-07-2012, 10:11 PM
Theres a difference in not spending and not throwing max contracts at a guy who cannot stay healthy.

Kemo
07-07-2012, 10:12 PM
So we are the new Atlanta Hawks ?What is your obsession with this?

I've seen you make this comment on about every thread you participate in.. lol

IndyHoya
07-07-2012, 10:14 PM
We may still match Roy, but we're not going to look to add any big names. Our best hope is to replace one or some of our current guys with ones who fit together better to make up for it.

And that's not the end of the world, folks. This whole FA thing isn't over yet. We sign Roy and we sign (or not sign) Mayo, and we'll still be pretty damned good. We can also pick over some future trade opportunities too. Walsh and Pritchard aren't idiots and the Simons traditionally have not been stingy. I'm not letting one unconfirmed sports column from a guy I've never heard of radically revise my thinking about the Pacers management, which I think is pretty astute. We'll see.

Hypnotiq
07-07-2012, 10:16 PM
What is your obsession with this?

I've seen you make this comment on about every thread you participate in.. lol

What? i just don't want to be stuck in Mediocrity which is looking like where we are heading.

SycamoreKen
07-07-2012, 10:16 PM
If Bird has issues with the team and the owner, why is he still hanging around?

https://twitter.com/TriciaWhitaker/status/221691647652663296/photo/1

billbradley
07-07-2012, 10:17 PM
name an all star quality guy who can get to the rim at will and shoot like both Deron and Eric can. This was our last shot to add before paying our own. Literally Deron and EJ fit the bill of our last remaining key piece we needed to a tee but we didnt go after one of them.

So the Pacers only chance was land D. Will who was never coming here, or EJ, who we met with? And we didn't land these guys because of Simon?

OlBlu
07-07-2012, 10:18 PM
If Bird has issues with the team and the owner, why is he still hanging around?

https://twitter.com/TriciaWhitaker/status/221691647652663296/photo/1

You don't burn your bridges if you are smart and Bird is very smart.....:cool:

speakout4
07-07-2012, 10:19 PM
If Bird has issues with the team and the owner, why is he still hanging around?

https://twitter.com/TriciaWhitaker/status/221691647652663296/photo/1
I believe he leaves August 1.

Steagles
07-07-2012, 10:20 PM
I don't think not landing the superstars is an issue, they were never coming here. However, I hate that Simon is so strongly against the thought of the luxury tax. That is partially the problem when it comes to the Pacers not getting some free agents, because we have to lowball everyone.

pacer4ever
07-07-2012, 10:22 PM
So the Pacers only chance was land D. Will who was never coming here, or EJ, who we met with? And we didn't land these guys because of Simon?

Of course Dwill isn't Simons fault. But Gordon yes if we offer him a fair deal and make him our fotf Right now his quotes would be my heart is in Indy.

billbradley
07-07-2012, 10:23 PM
Of course Dwill isn't Simons fault. But Gordon yes if we offer him a fair deal and make him our fotf Right now his quotes would be my heart is in Indy.

What did we offer EJ?

pacer4ever
07-07-2012, 10:24 PM
If Bird has issues with the team and the owner, why is he still hanging around?

https://twitter.com/TriciaWhitaker/status/221691647652663296/photo/1

Because he agreed to be with the team through the ORL summer league he said that on draft night.

billbradley
07-07-2012, 10:28 PM
So basically this is all because people are assuming we didn't offer enough money to EJ, who hasn't been able to stay on the court?

vnzla81
07-07-2012, 10:28 PM
What did we offer EJ?

Nothing?

Hicks
07-07-2012, 10:36 PM
What? i just don't want to be stuck in Mediocrity which is looking like where we are heading.

Depends on how you define mediocrity. I think 41-41 records. The Hawks over the last four seasons had an average winning % of ~.591, which is good for about 48-49 wins in an 82 game season. I think this group, with Roy back, could average around 50 wins or so the next few years unless someone is much improved. I don't really think of that as mediocre. There's multiple levels in between mediocre and champion, and we're somewhere in between the two with Roy, I think.

billbradley
07-07-2012, 10:36 PM
Of course Dwill isn't Simons fault. But Gordon yes if we offer him a fair deal and make him our fotf Right now his quotes would be my heart is in Indy.

And you can't assume that he opted to play in Indy either.

Playing in Arizona EJ is closer to his brother, there isn't state income tax, and I'm sure he can benefit from the Suns' legendary med staff.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 10:36 PM
If Bird has issues with the team and the owner, why is he still hanging around?

https://twitter.com/TriciaWhitaker/status/221691647652663296/photo/1

He's not the boss anymore. Significant difference. And he said he'd be here through the summer league.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 10:37 PM
I don't think not landing the superstars is an issue, they were never coming here. However, I hate that Simon is so strongly against the thought of the luxury tax. That is partially the problem when it comes to the Pacers not getting some free agents, because we have to lowball everyone.

We offered Nash 10m per. We're giving George Hill 8m per.

Something doesn't add up.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 10:39 PM
Of course Dwill isn't Simons fault. But Gordon yes if we offer him a fair deal and make him our fotf Right now his quotes would be my heart is in Indy.

And the New Orleans will say 'We have fifty-eight million reasons why your heart will relocate back to the bayou."

Sandman21
07-07-2012, 10:41 PM
We offered Nash 10m per. We're giving George Hill 8m per.

Something doesn't add up.
Herb didn't want to pay 58 million to a guy who has injury problems. Easy as that.

MiaDragon
07-07-2012, 10:41 PM
Is this really a surprise to anyone?

No but it still pisses me off.

BrownBearCoffee
07-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Don't eat everything that is put in front of you, especially when it comes out of NYC.

Day-V
07-07-2012, 10:44 PM
I'd actually be glad if Simon said 'No' to going after Eric Gordon. Not worth the money.

rm1369
07-07-2012, 10:46 PM
So basically this is all because people are assuming we didn't offer enough money to EJ, who hasn't been able to stay on the court?

There are a few of us that have felt this way for years. My opinion hasn't changed because of anything that has occurred this offseason - it has simply been reinforced. I don't believe it is purely a money issue. I believe it is a money vs risk issue. The team has historically paid there own - guys that you know who they are and how they fit. I don't believe Herb has much interest in large FA contracts or risky / aggressive maneuvers. I don't think Herb has a burning desire to win a title. If you look at how the Simons came to acquire the Pacers I don't believe it is a stretch to believe they see the team as more of a civic duty. I think they want the team to be good, something the city can be proud of. But in no way do I believe the team or the Simon's priority is to win a title.

Sandman21
07-07-2012, 10:48 PM
Don't eat everything that is put in front of you, especially when it comes out of NYC.

Exactly. Keep in mind Lawrence is competing against ******** Boy Peter Vecsey.

billbradley
07-07-2012, 10:48 PM
There are a few of us that have felt this way for years.

When did you start believing SImon didn't want to spend?

What players were not spent on specifically that caused you to believe this?

speakout4
07-07-2012, 10:51 PM
There are a few of us that have felt this way for years. My opinion hasn't changed because of anything that has occurred this offseason - it has simply been reinforced. I don't believe it is purely a money issue. I believe it is a money vs risk issue. The team has historically paid there own - guys that you know who they are and how they fit. I don't believe Herb has much interest in large FA contracts or risky / aggressive maneuvers. I don't think Herb has a burning desire to win a title. If you look at how the Simons came to acquire the Pacers I don't believe it is a stretch to believe they see the team as more of a civic duty. I think they want the team to be good, something the city can be proud of. But in no way do I believe the team or the Simon's priority is to win a title.

Exactly. The pacers have been a civic duty and to a lesser extent a nice hobby but I also don't believe he has that fire to win it all like Cuban and some of the others. if he did have that fire it most likely has ebbed in the last 30 some years

Wage
07-07-2012, 10:53 PM
So according to this article we either A) Do not want to go into the luxury tax, or B) Refuse to add a scorer to the team. "A" is expected and "B" is clearly not true.

The bigger thing to me in that article is that supposedly the NBA is working behind the scenes to improve the Bobcats? WTF is that? This entire things looks made up to me.

Sandman21
07-07-2012, 10:54 PM
So according to this article we either A) Do not want to go into the luxury tax,

I read somewhere that Brooklyn is looking at 102 million in Luxury Tax payments ALONE after next season. I DON'T blame Herb.

rm1369
07-07-2012, 10:54 PM
When did you start believing SImon didn't want to spend?

What players were not spent on specifically that caused you to believe this?

Did you read what I posted or did you stop at the first line?

SycamoreKen
07-07-2012, 10:55 PM
Thanks for the responses on Bird still hanging around. Would he really be welcome if he is talking behind his owner's back? That is what makes me doubt this somewhat. As for Gordon, maybe he told them Phoenix was his preferred destination? Maybe they believed the Hornets really are going to match no matter what is offered?

vnzla81
07-07-2012, 10:56 PM
I'd actually be glad if Simon said 'No' to going after Eric Gordon. Not worth the money.

I think he is saying NO to going after other players too not just EJ, it looks like we are lowballing the crap out of people.

5_7_Clash
07-07-2012, 10:56 PM
I don't understand. Isn't this what we've been hearing all along? I mean after all the "I've been doing this for nine years and my back hurts" stuff, all anyone has talked about with sincerity is that Bird wanted to spend and Simon didn't. I mean that's all Bird ever talked about in his pressers: "As long as my boss is willing to spend the money..." This shouldn't come as any surprise. We've been told all along, we just didn't want to hear it.
The interesting thing to me is that this SHOULD put into perspective the Exec of the Year Award for those people who crapped all over Bird for getting it. Look what he and his people did with an owner who wouldn't spend. Pretty impressive even if bitter-sweet.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 10:56 PM
Herb didn't want to pay 58 million to a guy who has injury problems. Easy as that.

I can buy that with regards to Gordon, but something still smells to me regarding why Bird left. He claims he already knew he was leaving as of the time of his post-season press conference, but I just have a very hard time buying that. He was so upbeat, so into it, so looking forward to what comes next, etc., and then he leaves. Something still doesn't add up.

billbradley
07-07-2012, 10:56 PM
Did you read what I posted or did you stop at the first line?

Read everything, my questions weren't answered in there.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 10:59 PM
it looks like we are lowballing the crap out of people.

People keep wanting to say this, but where's is the evidence besides 'Player X signs with Not Pacers' over and over again?

MiaDragon
07-07-2012, 10:59 PM
I read the article twice and it seems highly speculative to me, and I dont really buy it as the article suggests. So Bird tells Simon we need another scorer and Herb refuses, so Bird leaves. Does anyone think it is that simple. Doesn't ring true to me

Why not? Bird stated a few weeks ago he loved his job and wanted to continue to right after his meeting with Simon decides to quit. Does it need to be more complicated?

Day-V
07-07-2012, 10:59 PM
I think he is saying NO to going after other players too not just EJ, it looks like we are lowballing the crap out of people.

If that's the case, then why did we slightly overpay for George Hill, and why are there constant rumors of us going after Mayo & Brand? Doesn't make sense.

*astrisk*
07-07-2012, 11:06 PM
If that's the case, then why did we slightly overpay for George Hill, and why are there constant rumors of us going after Mayo & Brand? Doesn't make sense.

Makes a lot of sense if you listened to the press conference. Bird said that Simon hates to let people go. Hes very loyal to his people... He overplayed GH3 because he wants the same group coming back. Roy is gonna be matched as well...

The reason for OJ is because he is a cheaper EJ (and bird loves him)... and Brand is the opportunity to steal a good player...

will567
07-07-2012, 11:20 PM
This is so right! Bird wanted to try and take the next step and be a true contender but the pacers are happy being a playoff team. Larrry is a winner and left when business topped trying to be the best. I think if the Pacers tried to do what the colts do and try to build a contending team people would come support the them.

rm1369
07-07-2012, 11:23 PM
Read everything, my questions weren't answered in there.

Im watching the UFC 148 right now - I may post more on this later. I've come to this opinion based on watching the team operate over the last 25 years. Free agency is a very small part of it.

joew8302
07-07-2012, 11:27 PM
Don't you guys see what is going on here? Starting July 1st, teams throw out ridiculous offers. I mean look at what Houston is offering Asik, Toronto is offering Fields, at Phoenix is offering EJ. It isn't worth it. These teams are overspending and consequently will not get "bang for their buck".

Usually it is teams that are prudent and patient, and let these franchises that have money to burn do it, then swoop in and land an under the radar guy who surprises people. I like the patient approach to Simon.

When it comes down to it you never really see the Spurs, Thunder or any other top notch organization swing for the fences this early on. Wonder why that is? Hmmm...

vnzla81
07-07-2012, 11:32 PM
People keep wanting to say this, but where's is the evidence besides 'Player X signs with Not Pacers' over and over again?

Crawford last year? remember that it was reported that he wanted more money? you keep also telling us that we offered Nash 10mil?

graphic-er
07-07-2012, 11:36 PM
And you can't assume that he opted to play in Indy either.

Playing in Arizona EJ is closer to his brother, there isn't state income tax, and I'm sure he can benefit from the Suns' legendary med staff.
EJ also has a little brother in Indy who is going to be a freshman, that was the brother he most wanted to be close to according to rumors propagated on this very forum.

graphic-er
07-07-2012, 11:42 PM
So according to this article we either A) Do not want to go into the luxury tax, or B) Refuse to add a scorer to the team. "A" is expected and "B" is clearly not true.

The bigger thing to me in that article is that supposedly the NBA is working behind the scenes to improve the Bobcats? WTF is that? This entire things looks made up to me.

You need to read between the lines. A & B is the likely result of C) Simon doesn't want to go after the one RFA that could have put us over the top.

graphic-er
07-07-2012, 11:47 PM
This is so right! Bird wanted to try and take the next step and be a true contender but the pacers are happy being a playoff team. Larrry is a winner and left when business topped trying to be the best. I think if the Pacers tried to do what the colts do and try to build a contending team people would come support the them.

You gotta be freaking kidding me with this. The Colts are very cheap when it comes to Free Agency. They have never went out and tried to make a big splash in FA. They relied on Manning to essentially make everyone better than they really are.

Bball
07-07-2012, 11:50 PM
What doesn't add up? Whether Simon didn't want to spend in a specific direction, or didn't want to spend aggressively in general, this article makes way more sense than Bird's 180deg turn and citing health reasons ever did. Instead of acting excited about returning and questioning whether Herb wants to spend (which just the statement would imply Bird has some reason to wonder), wouldn't Bird have been more focused on talking about his health and how that was what would impact his decision?

Now, we can debate 'why' Simon wants to keep things in check and I'll throw out a couple of areas of random speculation-

For one thing, I've come to agree with the thought the Simons bought the team with the thought it was a civic duty... mixed in with a hearty helping of 'keeping up with the Jones''- A ticket to an exclusive club for mult-millionaires.... and billionaires.... Sports Team Owners. But never did they have a driving desire to bring a championship to Indy. They didn't get into this with that mindset to begin with. It's not like they were actively looking for a franchise. And Herb certainly got burned overpaying JO and others in the not too distant past.

If they don't match Roy I'm really starting to wonder if another part of the 'why' to the question of not spending is to get the team in some kind of good financial shape for a sale or possibly transfer to family. It's been said Simon's son isn't interested but I have no idea if that is true or not. But the 'who' doesn't matter as much to the 'why'.

pacer4ever
07-07-2012, 11:50 PM
Don't you guys see what is going on here? Starting July 1st, teams throw out ridiculous offers. I mean look at what Houston is offering Asik, Toronto is offering Fields, at Phoenix is offering EJ. It isn't worth it. These teams are overspending and consequently will not get "bang for their buck".

Usually it is teams that are prudent and patient, and let these franchises that have money to burn do it, then swoop in and land an under the radar guy who surprises people. I like the patient approach to Simon.

When it comes down to it you never really see the Spurs, Thunder or any other top notch organization swing for the fences this early on. Wonder why that is? Hmmm...

both SAS and OKC dont have to spend in free agency because they completely rebuilt their team from the ground up we didn't. If we had a Durant Westbrook and Harden no one would be asking to spend in free agency. But we didn't build the way they did. We drafted mid teens every season instead of drafting top 5 and drafting top 5 talent like Duncan and Durant, Westbrook, Harden we drafted well in the mid teens for the most part. But expecting to build a championship core by drafting mid teens every year is just impossible. The way the team was built we needed to get a free agent elite talent and we have failed.


Comparing us to OKC and the Spurs is just silly.

Bball
07-07-2012, 11:54 PM
I also agree... If we're not going to aggressively tweak the team thru FA, then it makes no sense not to 'tank' during down years and build thru high draft picks and maybe even a #1 if luck is with the team.

Wage
07-07-2012, 11:59 PM
You need to read between the lines. A & B is the likely result of C) Simon doesn't want to go after the one RFA that could have put us over the top.

C makes no sense. There is no one free agent we could have aquired to put us over the top. DWill was the closest to that, but he wasn't coming no matter what. I love EJ, but he's a crap shoot health wise and even a healthy EJ doesen't put us over the top.

graphic-er
07-08-2012, 12:01 AM
Settle down and show some respect. He deserves it. And he sure as hell deserves better than any Pacer fan having the nerve to say '**** you' to him. Absolutely ridiculous.

If that Pacer fans spends a $1000 of their money with the team every year, then that fan has every right to go tell Simon to F-off if what the article is insinuating is true. The fans expect the Front Office and Ownership to be committed to building a team capable of winning a championship. Everyone knows from top to bottom that this team needs a real go to scorer. Simon doesn't get a pass just because he bought the team 30 years ago. He has been able to secure an awful lot of favorable contracts with the city to operate his business and own a team in this city.

graphic-er
07-08-2012, 12:02 AM
C makes no sense. I love EJ, but he's a crap shoot health wise and even a healthy EJ doesen't put us over the top. There are differing opinions on this.

Wage
07-08-2012, 12:07 AM
There are differing opinions on this.

Indeed. But ultimately, the one that matters rests with the man writing the checks.

I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. Assuming the article is correct, how on earth can anyone justify Simon going into the luxury tax when the pacers have one of the worst attendance records in the NBA?

Peck
07-08-2012, 12:09 AM
We offered Nash 10m per. We're giving George Hill 8m per.

Something doesn't add up.

I honestly must have missed something. You keep quoting that number like you have seen an actual offer both on here & twitter. Where are you getting that from? I have never seen anyone link an actual story to it so I would be very interested in seeing that.

Sandman21
07-08-2012, 12:09 AM
And with the luxury tax about to become FAR more punitive as well. Brooklyn is going to get HAMMERED by it if they land Howard.

Peck
07-08-2012, 12:11 AM
And with the luxury tax about to become FAR more punitive as well. Brooklyn is going to get HAMMERED by it if they land Howard.

But that is the real problem of not having a hard cap.

Some owners with deep enough pockets and big enough markets just won't care. Most will obviously, but L.A., N.Y. & maybe Arisom (sp?) will probably just thumb thier nose at it.

cinotimz
07-08-2012, 12:15 AM
Lets be honest....with whats going on in Miami, New York, New Jersey, Boston and LAx2, we arent gonna be winning a title anytime soon anyway....and Simon knows this...so why break the bank trying...Birds a competitor....he wants to try...maybe Bird will end up with Cuban and Carlisle in Dallas...that would probably be an interesting combination...Cuban is gonna need something to revitalize the whole franchise after this upcoming season and bringing Bird on board might be just what the doctor ordered...

Bball
07-08-2012, 12:15 AM
I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. Assuming the article is correct, how on earth can anyone justify Simon going into the luxury tax when the pacers have one of the worst attendance records in the NBA?

Is the point really the luxury tax, or just spending aggressively in general?

That said.... How can you expect to energize and grow the fanbase if you don't invest in the team to the point that it continues to strive to be better... not stagnate or regress?

troyc11a
07-08-2012, 12:20 AM
Is the point really the luxury tax, or just spending aggressively in general?

That said.... How can you expect to energize and grow the fanbase if you don't invest in the team to the point that it continues to strive to be better... not stagnate or regress?

Nothing is to good for you when we are spending other people's money! Just kidding!!!!

vnzla81
07-08-2012, 12:20 AM
If that's the case, then why did we slightly overpay for George Hill, and why are there constant rumors of us going after Mayo & Brand? Doesn't make sense.

Those rumors don't mean anything.

Bball
07-08-2012, 12:22 AM
Lets be honest....with whats going on in Miami, New York, New Jersey, Boston and LAx2, we arent gonna be winning a title anytime soon anyway....and Simon knows this...so why break the bank trying...


Honestly... I think that's a cop out. I heard that same thing in 99 and especially 2000. And even if it is true, then why wouldn't you be tanking at every opportunity while these 'scary' teams are in your way?

But to me, a lot can change with these 'scary' teams. Chemistry issues, free agency, injuries, age, egos, etc.. Look how short-lived in the bigger picture the 'dominant' Kobe-Shaq Lakers turned out to be.

You just have to keep trying to plug the holes, build teams that can attack those teams' weaknesses, and see what happens. Also, you aren't likely going to have to beat them all. In some cases other teams will do you a favor... or one of them will take the other out...

And there's no shame in making the Finals only to lose. You can reload, bring your experience, and try and do it again... just a little better.



Birds a competitor....he wants to try...maybe Bird will end up with Cuban and Carlisle in Dallas...that would probably be an interesting combination...Cuban is gonna need something to revitalize the whole franchise after this upcoming season and bringing Bird on board might be just what the doctor ordered...

Interesting thought...

Wage
07-08-2012, 12:24 AM
Is the point really the luxury tax, or just spending aggressively in general?

That said.... How can you expect to energize and grow the fanbase if you don't invest in the team to the point that it continues to strive to be better... not stagnate or regress?

The point pretty much has to be the LT at this stage. No one has signed a free agent yet, so we have no idea what sort of signings the team has planned.

And as far as the fanbase is concerned, I would think putting together a team of well liked players that are active in the community, who have shown they can compete in the playoffs should be enough to get the fieldhouse out of embarrassing attendance levels.

joew8302
07-08-2012, 12:25 AM
both SAS and OKC dont have to spend in free agency because they completely rebuilt their team from the ground up we didn't. If we had a Durant Westbrook and Harden no one would be asking to spend in free agency. But we didn't build the way they did. We drafted mid teens every season instead of drafting top 5 and drafting top 5 talent like Duncan and Durant, Westbrook, Harden we drafted well in the mid teens for the most part. But expecting to build a championship core by drafting mid teens every year is just impossible. The way the team was built we needed to get a free agent elite talent and we have failed.


Comparing us to OKC and the Spurs is just silly.


Gee, thanks for all that great information. Aside from Miami who else has built a team in free agency?

I am not comparing our team to OKC and San Antonio from a team perspective, I am talking about the approach they take in business.

San Antonio finds guys like Danny Green and Gary Neal who are under the radar, that fit their system and go from there. OKC does the same thing with their role players and trades.

Look at the teams taking big swings. Gee, being in the same class as Phoenix, Houston, Toronto and Portland, sounds really appealing, doesn't it?

People are hilarious, they claim "Simon doesn't want to win" and they are citing the fact we don't follow the leads of franchises that are not very well run.

vnzla81
07-08-2012, 12:26 AM
And as far as the fanbase is concerned, I would think putting together a team of well liked players that are active in the community, who have shown they can compete in the playoffs should be enough to get the fieldhouse out of embarrassing attendance levels.


Nope it's not enough.

joew8302
07-08-2012, 12:27 AM
And for what it is worth we are not talking about elite level talent, we are talking about paying max money for Eric Gordon. Big difference.

joew8302
07-08-2012, 12:28 AM
Nope it's not enough.

Good deal. Then take your time and energy elsewhere. Root for the Lakers.

pacer4ever
07-08-2012, 12:34 AM
Gee, thanks for all that great information. Aside from Miami who else has built a team in free agency?

I am not comparing our team to OKC and San Antonio from a team perspective, I am talking about the approach they take in business.

San Antonio finds guys like Danny Green and Gary Neal who are under the radar, that fit their system and go from there. OKC does the same thing with their role players and trades.

Look at the teams taking big swings. Gee, being in the same class as Phoenix, Houston, Toronto and Portland, sounds really appealing, doesn't it?

People are hilarious, they claim "Simon doesn't want to win" and they are citing the fact we don't follow the leads of franchises that are not very well run.

LA Lakers and Boston hell even the Knicks built their team on money and free agency/ trade and could care less about the draft. Most big market teams act that way.



When is the last time the Lakers actually had a 1st rd pick???





and again finding guys like Danny Green and Gary Neal would be fine if we had that group around them Parker Duncan ect. Our problem is we find guys like Neal and Green yet we dont have the elite guys.



and again adding Gordon wouldn't guarantee anything(no one in the NBA is guaranteed anything) But it would put us at a level of a championship level team we may not be as good as Miami or OKC but in a 7 game series we would have a legit shot of winning.

Sandman21
07-08-2012, 12:34 AM
But that is the real problem of not having a hard cap.

Some owners with deep enough pockets and big enough markets just won't care. Most will obviously, but L.A., N.Y. & maybe Arisom (sp?) will probably just thumb thier nose at it.

A 100 million dollars in luxury tax bills? I think that might even make Buss blink a couple times.

vnzla81
07-08-2012, 12:36 AM
A 100 million dollars in luxury tax bills? I think that might even make Buss blink a couple times.

The Russian guy doesn't give a damn about the luxury tax and other teams are happy he doesn't give a damn so they can get some of that money.

Bball
07-08-2012, 12:38 AM
Yes, but the fans... and general populace needs to believe they are latching onto something that's going to grow into something bigger and better. Not just something that will be considered 'good enough' with nothing but minor tweaks while other teams continue to improve.

MiaDragon
07-08-2012, 12:41 AM
You gotta be freaking kidding me with this. The Colts are very cheap when it comes to Free Agency. They have never went out and tried to make a big splash in FA. They relied on Manning to essentially make everyone better than they really are.

the colts were never able to go out and spend due to that boat anchor of a contract that Manning demanded.

Bball
07-08-2012, 12:41 AM
And for what it is worth we are not talking about elite level talent, we are talking about paying max money for Eric Gordon. Big difference.

Nobody here (that's talking anyway) really knows who we are talking about. It could be Gordon.... it could be Gordon among others... it could not be Gordon at all. It could be hypothetical players that Herb closed the door on in principle.

cinotimz
07-08-2012, 12:42 AM
Look...we all are dancin around the obvious...Birds a competitor...we all know that...after all hes been thru with this team and to finally get it on the right track....theres no way he was walking away if he felt like he had a snowballs chance in hell of doing what needs to be done to compete for a title....when he walked away...it pretty much told us everything we needed to know...and it had nothing to do with his back or anything else....it pretty much sucks for us...but he knows best...and he chose to walk away...which had to be incredibly hard for him given all hes been thru and the competitor he is....so....

But this article pretty much ensures Hibbert will be matched...not that there was ever really a question...and its also gonna be interesting to see how everyone handles this, because its pretty much a PR nitemare at a critical time for the franchise...

Bball
07-08-2012, 12:44 AM
Look...we all are dancin around the obvious...Birds a competitor...we all know that...after all hes been thru with this team and to finally get it on the right track....theres no way he was walking away if he felt like he had a snowballs chance in hell of doing what needs to be done to compete for a title....when he walked away...it pretty much told us everything we needed to know...and it had nothing to do with his back or anything else....it pretty much sucks for us...be he knows...and he chose to walk away...which had to be incredibly hard for him given all hes been thru and the competitor he is....so....

But this article pretty much ensures Hibbert will be matched...not that there was ever really a question...and its also gonna be interesting to see how everyone handles this, because its pretty much a PR nitemare at a critical time for the franchise...

I don't know if Hibbert will be matched or not... But I agree with everything else you just said.

pacer4ever
07-08-2012, 12:52 AM
IMO this situation is a lot like PHX when they let Joe Johnson walk to the Hawks. Suns were a better team than us obviously IMO but letting JJ walk cost the Suns a title or two. The Suns just lacked that one piece in the late Nash years and they let him walk due to money.

the Suns only offered him $60 million over six years (Atlanta gave him $70 million for five). But J.J like EJ let it be know he didnt want to be matched.

eldubious
07-08-2012, 12:55 AM
This not going after elite free agents drives me crazy because the Pacers consistently pass on potential star players in the draft for safe good guys. If they would take a chance on these players in the first place, they would be in a better position.

HC
07-08-2012, 01:01 AM
Is the point really the luxury tax, or just spending aggressively in general?

That said.... How can you expect to energize and grow the fanbase if you don't invest in the team to the point that it continues to strive to be better... not stagnate or regress?

Agree 100%, however I say that with great respect for Herb and the late Mel.

Wage
07-08-2012, 01:05 AM
Yes, but the fans... and general populace needs to believe they are latching onto something that's going to grow into something bigger and better. Not just something that will be considered 'good enough' with nothing but minor tweaks while other teams continue to improve.

What exactly does that mean though? Are you saying bringin back your own young guys and adding some moderately priced (if 8 to 10 mil a year guys are considered moderatley priced these days) pieces isn't enough to have more than a spattering of fans show up? Does that mean that the owner absolutely has to bring in a new max contract guy every year that didn't end in a championship? Price be damned? If the general fanbase in Indiana has an attitude that they aren't willing to show up unless the owner is going broke, then honestly the team needs to move somehwere that will support them ASAP.

SycamoreKen
07-08-2012, 01:29 AM
Ummm what elite unrestricted free agents are we not willing to spend enough money on this year? Gordon is going back to the Hornets whether he likes it or not, from the sound of things right now. Maybe we can swing a trade for him later so NO doesn't give him up for nothing? Nash and Williams obviously had no interest in coming here, so who else were we supposed to throw money at? Crawford? Please.

Bball
07-08-2012, 01:36 AM
What exactly does that mean though? Are you saying bringin back your own young guys and adding some moderately priced (if 8 to 10 mil a year guys are considered moderatley priced these days) pieces isn't enough to have more than a spattering of fans show up? Does that mean that the owner absolutely has to bring in a new max contract guy every year that didn't end in a championship? Price be damned? If the general fanbase in Indiana has an attitude that they aren't willing to show up unless the owner is going broke, then honestly the team needs to move somehwere that will support them ASAP.

It means the President of Basketball Operations shouldn't feel compelled to leave because he feels the team's owner doesn't want to do what is necessary to get to the next level. Be it spend money, pursue RFA's, pursue FA's, trade away fan favorites, trade away owner favorites, whatever....

So it really doesn't matter what the details actually are specifically, it matters that Bird feels the FO is satisfied as-is and wants to coast for a while. That tells us a lot, even if it does leave some questions.

Sollozzo
07-08-2012, 01:50 AM
I read the article twice and it seems highly speculative to me, and I dont really buy it as the article suggests. So Bird tells Simon we need another scorer and Herb refuses, so Bird leaves. Does anyone think it is that simple. Doesn't ring true to me

It may be speculative, but it makes perfect sense when you look at the comments Bird made in late May. No one can gloss over the fact that Bird sounded extremely excited about coming back the week after the Heat eliminated us when he said "I'd do it today if Herbie was here". Bird is a man of few words when it comes to talking with the media, so him saying that was very significant. That was a man who was VERY clear about wanting to come back. Then all of the sudden a couple weeks ago we hear that he has "health issues" and is leaving. Now it's always possible that the health issues became significantly worse over the past month, but I have a hard time buying that. I think the spending issue is much more likely. By late May when Bird said he wanted to come back, he would have had PLENTY of time to address his health situation.

As others have said in his thread, Bird is a competitor. I just don't buy that he would stay here for all of these crappy seasons and then leave when the team finally has a solid young roster and cap room if he really thought that he was going to have the freedom to do whatever he wanted to take this team to the next step.

If we don't match on Roy then that pretty much proves that we are tight and that we have ownership issues as far as spending money is concerned. If they decide to be tight with their money then I'll be tight with mine. I'm a young person who doesn't have an abundance of money, so I will be happy to cut back on spending money for a team who is completely content with mediocrity. But I'll wait and see what they do with Roy before I decide to cut back on the number of games I go to a year.

graphic-er
07-08-2012, 02:18 AM
They have been bottom 5 in attendance by their own doing!

All these other teams who have been terrible for many many years, and have rebuilded with lottery picks and who may still be terrible have averaged a higher attendance than the Pacers! They probably should have really blew the team up and tanked it properly for atleast one year to get the high lottery pick.

graphic-er
07-08-2012, 02:22 AM
My biggest Beef with Bird and how he has handled this is letting it leak to the media like this. He should kept quite until after the summer league and FA period. Atleast give our team the perception of continuity. Then once the off season matters are handled he could have easily come out with some BS story about needing surgery so bad and bringing Walsh back. But know we get this 2 days before the freaking draft......

i honestly think this sudden change in management has hurt our team's perception among Free Agents.

Bball
07-08-2012, 03:42 AM
Keep in mind this year wasn't the first year that Bird mentioned the willingness of ownership to spend money. To me that clearly says he has had some concerns there for some reason.

BTW... Kravitz is saying that had Bird stayed there's even LESS chance that the Pacers would've matched on Roy. So that's certainly some interesting info or speculation...
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120707/SPORTS15/207070372/Bob-Kravitz-Letting-Roy-Hibbert-go-would-put-Pacers-behind-Colts?odyssey=nav|head

Kuq_e_Zi91
07-08-2012, 04:19 AM
They have been bottom 5 in attendance by their own doing!

All these other teams who have been terrible for many many years, and have rebuilded with lottery picks and who may still be terrible have averaged a higher attendance than the Pacers! They probably should have really blew the team up and tanked it properly for atleast one year to get the high lottery pick.

I'm sorry, were we not the fifth best team in the NBA last season? Are the players on this team not outstanding in the community as well? There is absolutely no reason why this team should be bottom five in attendance.

Kuq_e_Zi91
07-08-2012, 04:50 AM
Of course Dwill isn't Simons fault. But Gordon yes if we offer him a fair deal and make him our fotf Right now his quotes would be my heart is in Indy.

Hypothetically, let's say we offered Gordon a max contract like Phoenix. P4E, of all people, I know that you know New Orleans will match any offer since the new ownership can't afford to let Gordon leave right after buying the team.

So why are we mad at Simon again? Even if we had offered him a max and he had put pen to paper, right back to New Orleans he would go.

Kstat
07-08-2012, 05:41 AM
I think it's the effort that people want to see.

Put it this way, we will know how pissed off Larry is by how soon it takes for him to take a new job.

rexnom
07-08-2012, 06:15 AM
I'm very confused by what else Simon could have done up until this point. Our camp clearly met with Gordon (before Phoenix btw) and probably came to the determination that he wanted a max contract (and that NO would match if we offered, a risky proposition to begin with). Increase our offer beyond practical sense for Nash? Commit to matching Roy already? I just don't understand not waiting another week or two to assess.

I liked Bird a lot and I'm sorry to see him go but I have faith in our current front office's competence until they prove otherwise incompetent. Not sure how much to believe this article as well.

McKeyFan
07-08-2012, 07:13 AM
BTW... Kravitz is saying that had Bird stayed there's even LESS chance that the Pacers would've matched on Roy.

Wow. I could see that being the main issue. An owner would definitely want to keep a crowd favorite like Hibbs around. But from a basketball perspective, I could see the desire to let Roy go in order to find more strategic pieces.

OlBlu
07-08-2012, 09:25 AM
I think it's the effort that people want to see.

Put it this way, we will know how pissed off Larry is by how soon it takes for him to take a new job.

One year........:cool:

Kstat
07-08-2012, 09:26 AM
One year........:cool:

If that's the case, then the relationship between Larry and Simon was really, really toxic.

xBulletproof
07-08-2012, 09:28 AM
If that's the case, then the relationship between Larry and Simon was really, really toxic.

Oooooooooor he had his surgeries, and is now healed up. With the first job openings being one year from now, well .... seems pretty obvious.

OlBlu
07-08-2012, 09:28 AM
What exactly does that mean though? Are you saying bringin back your own young guys and adding some moderately priced (if 8 to 10 mil a year guys are considered moderatley priced these days) pieces isn't enough to have more than a spattering of fans show up? Does that mean that the owner absolutely has to bring in a new max contract guy every year that didn't end in a championship? Price be damned? If the general fanbase in Indiana has an attitude that they aren't willing to show up unless the owner is going broke, then honestly the team needs to move somehwere that will support them ASAP.

Fans are attracted to star power. The Pacers do not have any star power and they are not a good draw on the road or at home.....:cool:

pogi
07-08-2012, 09:35 AM
I don't want to overpay for Mayo. I'm still kind of annoyed that we overpaid for Hill.

I agree; but, at least we overpay someone who WANTS to be here.

Kstat
07-08-2012, 09:41 AM
Oooooooooor he had his surgeries, and is now healed up. With the first job openings being one year from now, well .... seems pretty obvious.

If that was the case, he'd have simply stepped away for a year instead of forfeiting his job.

I'm still open to the theory that his health issues prevented him from doing his job, but that gets wiped away if he's back in the game within a year.

pogi
07-08-2012, 10:14 AM
name an all star quality guy who can get to the rim at will and shoot like both Deron and Eric can. This was our last shot to add before paying our own. Literally Deron and EJ fit the bill of our last remaining key piece we needed to a tee but we didnt go after one of them.

Who knows what the reminder of the off season holds??? I know one thing we aren't getting a difference maker to take us to a championship caliber team like we could of if we went after one RFA.


It's fine if you want to sugar coat and be unrealistic it but im not really into that kind of thing.

I understand what you're saying...but who's to say that, for example, Deron's agent basically told us "Sorry, but my client doesn't even want to consider Indy." I feel this is the case for free-agents about Indiana. Besides West and Stephen Jackson, how many DECENT free agents actually chose to come here? I'm always hearing about players talking mostly about LA, Chicago, New York, Boston, or mostly other coastal or big market cities.

I remember reading an article about Antonio Davis after first going to Toronto, and he said that Toronto was more "culturally diversified" than Indianapolis. Since then, I've wondered if many players look at our state as some backwards, corn-fed, boring place to be; and, that may of factored in their decision about coming here. This is why I don't expect BIG, BIG name free agents to ever consider us in any list of places they WANT to go.

Also, the deal with Herb Simon about not signing anyone....look at our attendance over the last 7-8 years. Alot of fans turned on the Pacers whether it be the brawl, spending more money on the Colts, not liking the product on the floor, etc, etc. But, many other teams may have worse players and alot less wins, and yet, still have a full house, or close to it. I remember seeing an article saying we were close to Charlotte in attendance; but, we were, at the time, one of the top four teams in the east, and Charlotte only won about 4 or 5 games. I'm thinking Simon looks at us as fickle fans, and figures if he took a chance on a RFA, and it didn't pan out, we'd quit going to the games, and he'd lose more money than most owners.

Of course, these are just my own opinions :duck:

docpaul
07-08-2012, 10:16 AM
BTW... Kravitz is saying that had Bird stayed there's even LESS chance that the Pacers would've matched on Roy. So that's certainly some interesting info or speculation...
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120707/SPORTS15/207070372/Bob-Kravitz-Letting-Roy-Hibbert-go-would-put-Pacers-behind-Colts?odyssey=nav|head

Now here's some solid important information... the reason for hesitance on matching doesn't come from owner frugality as much as simple disagreement on Hibberts value. Again, the outstanding issue comes down to simply: if the FO decided Hibbert is worth 14/year, they'll match. If not, hes gone.

If Bird didn't want to match him, then this is key info.

mildlysane
07-08-2012, 10:23 AM
Maybe Bird wanted to go all in on DH or DWill. I agree that we can't spend money just to spend money (ala Joe Dumars a couple of years ago), but we were flirting with the minimum salary cap last year. And, barring matching Roy, then we will be doing the same again this year. I keep reading that Simon doesn't want to go over the LT line, but what about the regular cap? It doesn't feel like he even wants to approach even that anymore. If your owner doesn't want to spend the money, then why would a casual fan want to? I mean, it isn't like no one knows about the financial empire known as Simon Properties. Heck, they have a mall down here in Port Charlotte, Florida, for God's sake.

imawhat
07-08-2012, 10:25 AM
Now here's some solid important information... the reason for hesitance on matching doesn't come from owner frugality as much as simple disagreement on Hibberts value. Again, the outstanding issue comes down to simply: if the FO decided Hibbert is worth 14/year, they'll match. If not, hes gone.

If Bird didn't want to match him, then this is key info.

It's the lead and it keeps getting buried. It could mean one of several things.

PR07
07-08-2012, 10:33 AM
For anyone, who watched the Sportscenter "Larry Bird: One-on-One" Part II, Larry said something along the lines of, "For a team like the Heat, they're goal is to win a title. For a small market team, our goal is to simply make it to the Finals."

Hicks
07-08-2012, 10:45 AM
Crawford last year? remember that it was reported that he wanted more money? you keep also telling us that we offered Nash 10mil?

I thought Portland offered the same or pretty close to the same money but he chose them because it was somewhat of a home town thing and later we've heard they got tired of waiting for us to figure out the McRoberts/Mayo trade.

I don't have the Nash info in front of me, but unless I'm wrong, someone will be able to back me up on seeing that.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 10:50 AM
If they don't match Roy I'm really starting to wonder if another part of the 'why' to the question of not spending is to get the team in some kind of good financial shape for a sale or possibly transfer to family. It's been said Simon's son isn't interested but I have no idea if that is true or not. But the 'who' doesn't matter as much to the 'why'.

There's another son besides the 'not interested' one, and I could have sworn within the past couple of weeks I either heard or read his name and that he was going to be the next owner of the team if they don't sell it from the family.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 10:54 AM
If that Pacer fans spends a $1000 of their money with the team every year, then that fan has every right to go tell Simon to F-off if what the article is insinuating is true. The fans expect the Front Office and Ownership to be committed to building a team capable of winning a championship. Everyone knows from top to bottom that this team needs a real go to scorer. Simon doesn't get a pass just because he bought the team 30 years ago. He has been able to secure an awful lot of favorable contracts with the city to operate his business and own a team in this city.

Simon LOSES money on this team every year. In the millions. He's been dedicated to keeping this franchise in this state for decades. He's made it clear he will only give the team to someone else who feels the same way when the time comes. Without him, there's no team to even consider spending $1,000 a year on.

You have the right to be angry, but that doesn't give you a pass to be rude. I hate it when people can't make that distinction. You can show respect even while expressing your angry opinion! That should be the rule in general, but in the case of Herb Simon, his generosity and class especially so!

Hicks
07-08-2012, 10:58 AM
I honestly must have missed something. You keep quoting that number like you have seen an actual offer both on here & twitter. Where are you getting that from? I have never seen anyone link an actual story to it so I would be very interested in seeing that.

Well, ****. My fault. I thought I'd read it from a better source. I did a search; turns out it was just a young guy who makes questionable reports on twitter. I thought it was someone else who had said it.

imawhat
07-08-2012, 11:05 AM
Well, ****. My fault. I thought I'd read it from a better source. I did a search; turns out it was just a young guy who makes questionable reports on twitter. I thought it was someone else who had said it.

That offer was thrown out by someone that's legit too. I read/heard about our Nash offer from several places.

And yes, one of the Simons is lined up to take over should something happy. I think Simon himself said that in a press conference.

And Crawford got the same offer from us as Portland: 2 years/$10M. There was a third team to offer that as well but the Pacers offer was the first that went public.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 11:07 AM
Those rumors don't mean anything.

Just the ones that imply we low ball, right? Those mean something, right?

Hicks
07-08-2012, 11:09 AM
A 100 million dollars in luxury tax bills? I think that might even make Buss blink a couple times.

The Lakers are about to start a local TV contract that nets them $300,000,000 a season.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 11:19 AM
I'm very confused by what else Simon could have done up until this point. Our camp clearly met with Gordon (before Phoenix btw) and probably came to the determination that he wanted a max contract (and that NO would match if we offered, a risky proposition to begin with). Increase our offer beyond practical sense for Nash? Commit to matching Roy already? I just don't understand not waiting another week or two to assess.

I liked Bird a lot and I'm sorry to see him go but I have faith in our current front office's competence until they prove otherwise incompetent. Not sure how much to believe this article as well.

I think the current uncertainty about Roy makes it look a lot worse than it probably is.

But then again, if Roy is a Blazer next week, it's not really just a perception anymore.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 11:20 AM
If that's the case, then the relationship between Larry and Simon was really, really toxic.

Toxic sounds like a poor choice of words to me. I think they're fond of one another. I think this is purely financial/philosophical. I think they like each other a lot.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 11:26 AM
Now here's some solid important information... the reason for hesitance on matching doesn't come from owner frugality as much as simple disagreement on Hibberts value. Again, the outstanding issue comes down to simply: if the FO decided Hibbert is worth 14/year, they'll match. If not, hes gone.

If Bird didn't want to match him, then this is key info.

It confuses me that Bird would allegedly feel that way. Roy is one of his guys, all the way.

ESutt7
07-08-2012, 11:27 AM
Toxic sounds like a poor choice of words to me. I think they're fond of one another. I think this is purely financial/philosophical. I think they like each other a lot.

If the relationship was "toxic" Bird wouldn't have attended the press conference with Simon, Pritchard, and Walsh. It's pretty clear they're all still close and have a good relationship.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 11:28 AM
That offer was thrown out by someone that's legit too. I read/heard about our Nash offer from several places.

Do you think you can find one of the other sources of that claim?

Hicks
07-08-2012, 11:30 AM
If the relationship was "toxic" Bird wouldn't have attended the press conference with Simon, Pritchard, and Walsh. It's pretty clear they're all still close and have a good relationship.

Not to mention the part where they're still all sitting around together watching the summer league team practice, and how Bird ran the draft.

Bball
07-08-2012, 11:39 AM
It confuses me that Bird would allegedly feel that way. Roy is one of his guys, all the way.

Well... Back in the winter when Roy had his annual mid-season swoon I commented that his agent is probably kicking himself for not going for the extension afterall... and that the FO might've just went from wondering if Roy was worth the max to wondering if they even wanted to retain him. It was a little hyperbole to make a point but I'm starting to wonder if I was closer to the mark than I might've thought.

And this is bugging me... On the talk of Gordon and NO's insistence they will match. How do we know they aren't bluffing or angling for a trade so they aren't left high and dry? What's bugging me is back when Brad Miller was here and this game was being played out Walsh was quoted as saying if someone threw out a number that was big enough we just wouldn't be able to match it. I never understood that. Why telegraph to other teams that a player you allegedly should be keeping, is actually available and you won't match them? Wouldn't it have been smarter to say you'll match, or just say nothing? I think NO's saying they'll match no matter what is a whole lot smarter than telegraphing to other teams- "Make your offers, there's a line we won't cross so our guy is available of you want him". One way discourages suitors and reduces bidders, even if your bluffing. The other way encourages bidders and practically guarantees you've increased the demand side of the equation.

At least they haven't done that with Hibbert, but all leaks seem to be opening that possibility.

speakout4
07-08-2012, 11:43 AM
It confuses me that Bird would allegedly feel that way. Roy is one of his guys, all the way.
Bird seems to be less sentimental about some of "his guys" than most of us think. Everyone believes that Lance is one of his favorites but Lance may just represent untapped talent to Bird and the minute Lance proved otherwise he would be gone. If Roy is not a Bird guy then who would be?

Kstat
07-08-2012, 11:46 AM
Simon LOSES money on this team every year. In the millions.

...not for much longer when the new CBA really kicks in... I'd imagine a good chunk of that $107 million the Nets are about to be taxed will be going straight into his pockets.

able
07-08-2012, 11:51 AM
that and a nice couple of millions being Pacers share of away games with the Lakers (about 1 mio per game)

speakout4
07-08-2012, 11:53 AM
There has been a lot of empty Mall space during the downturn.

rock747
07-08-2012, 11:53 AM
...not for much longer when the new CBA really kicks in... I'd imagine a good chunk of that $107 million the Nets are about to be taxed will be going straight into his pockets.

Which doesn't neccesarily entice small market owners like simon to overpay. It's almost more beneficial to them if the big markets are better than they are.

PR07
07-08-2012, 11:54 AM
I don't mind that Simon is being prudent, it's his money and he can do whatever he choose to do with it. However, it's just the thought that this team is sooooooooooooo close. I'd hate to see it regress or fall back into mediocrity when we're pretty much just one big piece away. Additionally, if Hibbert bolts, all the strides that this team has made the past two seasons will be lost.

Kstat
07-08-2012, 11:55 AM
Which doesn't neccesarily entice small market owners like simon to overpay. It's almost more beneficial to them if the big markets are better than they are.

yes, but it also gives you more money to re-invest into your product.

Bball
07-08-2012, 11:58 AM
And Simon is a businessman more than a competitor. He might be competitive in business ventures, but a quest for money/assets is different than a quest for a trophy. So it very well could be his goals for the team are vastly different than someone like Birds might be.

And it would explain Walsh's return.... I could see Bird suggesting Walsh if that is the way Simon wants to run the team.

But this is not the way to run a team if you want to fill the seats with rabid fans and get the bandwagon rolling. There can never be a good enough. There should always be a striving to improve long term, as well as the understanding short term pain can lead to long term gain.

rock747
07-08-2012, 11:58 AM
yes, but it also gives you more money to re-invest into your product.

I suppose it does, but also less incentive to invest money into your product.

speakout4
07-08-2012, 11:59 AM
yes, but it also gives you more money to re-invest into your product.

And also allows you to find buyers who do not have to take on much long term debt which is exactly what concerns me. You sell off pieces before you sell. A guy closing in on 80 has to decide what to do with his hobbies if family members are or aren't interested.

Herb bought out Mel's shares since Mel's heirs didn't want the team. We'll see if Herb's heirs feel the same way.

Kstat
07-08-2012, 12:01 PM
he's better off doing that than leaving it to a family member that doesn't want the team.

vnzla81
07-08-2012, 12:04 PM
yes, but it also gives you more money to re-invest into your product.

It could also make those owners to not give a damn because either way they are making money.

Kstat
07-08-2012, 12:06 PM
It could also make those owners to not give a damn because either way they are making money.

...because when they were losing money they spent so much more of it?

you're more likely to invest money into a product that you're making a profit on and make even more money.

vnzla81
07-08-2012, 12:18 PM
...because when they were losing money they spent so much more of it?

you're more likely to invest money into a product that you're making a profit on and make even more money.

I see the same thing with soccer teams, nope they don't care to invest that money back to the teams, as long as they are making money they don't care.

graphic-er
07-08-2012, 12:20 PM
Simon LOSES money on this team every year. In the millions. He's been dedicated to keeping this franchise in this state for decades. He's made it clear he will only give the team to someone else who feels the same way when the time comes. Without him, there's no team to even consider spending $1,000 a year on.

You have the right to be angry, but that doesn't give you a pass to be rude. I hate it when people can't make that distinction. You can show respect even while expressing your angry opinion! That should be the rule in general, but in the case of Herb Simon, his generosity and class especially so!

Losing money on the team every year is his own doing, he chose the contract he signed with the city. He chose who ran the organization. Its not the fans fault that he loses money. And as for the last 5-6 years or so, he chose to okay the trade for crap players with terrible contracts. You can say the fans demanded it of him, but It really didn't do him any good in the short term. They should have stayed patient and dealt those problem players for better deals.

Also we know with accounting tricks that the amount of money he loses every year is greatly exaggerated. Additionally with the new CBA and certain teams now willing to laugh at the Luxury tax penalties, Simon is going to re-coop a nice chunk of change from the other teams like NJ and NY.

Lets please get off the idea that Herb is the patron saint of basketball in Indianapolis.
We can't say in one sentence that he is a shrewd businessman who has made billions in the Indianapolis area, and then in the next say that he deserves our reverence because he has been flogged repeated for years from owning this franchise out the good of his heart.

BillS
07-08-2012, 12:22 PM
Sounds like many people think it's time to get a new owner, like maybe a Sam Nassi or Nelson Skalbania type who can turn this franchise into the finest team Las Vegas has ever had.

If everyone just gets together and refuses to spend any money on the Pacers, since they had the effrontery and gall to only make it to the second round of the playoffs, the unity of purpose will make absolutely certain that no one in Indianapolis will be burdened with spending their hard-earned money on the NBA ever again.

Oh... :rolleyes:

Dr. Hibbert
07-08-2012, 12:23 PM
This offseason has just been a trainwreck so far. To go from last year where this team really appeared to be on the verge of becoming a contender, to doing nada to improve the roster or address flaws...that sucks. Especially when the roster may well be markedly WORSE than it was last year.

vnzla81
07-08-2012, 12:30 PM
Sounds like many people think it's time to get a new owner, like maybe a Sam Nassi or Nelson Skalbania type who can turn this franchise into the finest team Las Vegas has ever had.

If everyone just gets together and refuses to spend any money on the Pacers, since they had the effrontery and gall to only make it to the second round of the playoffs, the unity of purpose will make absolutely certain that no one in Indianapolis will be burdened with spending their hard-earned money on the NBA ever again.

Oh... :rolleyes:

I think they are better off moving to another city if their only goal is to get to the second round, how much money is the city of Indianapolis giving them again?

Wage
07-08-2012, 12:31 PM
Fans are attracted to star power. The Pacers do not have any star power and they are not a good draw on the road or at home.....:cool:

If this is true, honestly that is just sad. Top 5 record in the NBA is no reason to show up? Gotta have a guy with his own line of sneakers to sell you before you can be bothered to show up? I guess my priorities for supporting my favorite TEAM must just be different than the rest of the fanbase.

cinotimz
07-08-2012, 12:35 PM
Not to mention the part where they're still all sitting around together watching the summer league team practice, and how Bird ran the draft.

thats why it will be very interesting to see how things go from here after this article....simon and walsh cant be at all happy with this...and even bird might not be....unless he was feeling vindictive....which seems a bit unlikely, though completely possible...

Pacerized
07-08-2012, 12:35 PM
This offseason has just been a trainwreck so far. To go from last year where this team really appeared to be on the verge of becoming a contender, to doing nada to improve the roster or address flaws...that sucks. Especially when the roster may well be markedly WORSE than it was last year.

Honestly we haven't lost anything yet. If we keep Hibbert which I expect, then the the team has stood still. Bringing in Brand and or Mayo would be a failure for free agency unless Mayo was at a bargain price. Landing Kaman at a fair price and keeping Hibbert would be a huge sucsess, we'll just need to make a trade for a starting pg later in the summer or wait and see if the Celtics implode and want to trade Rondo at the deadline. Their were really only 3 impact ufa's on the market and we've missed out on 2 of them. I doubt if the Pacers move on Kaman and keep Hibbert but I think we could get him at a good price if we did it now before matching Roy.

billbradley
07-08-2012, 12:59 PM
Wait, isn't the CIB deal up?

Why haven't we heard anything about renegotiating? Or is Simon now going to pay that 10 million a year again?

OlBlu
07-08-2012, 01:03 PM
If this is true, honestly that is just sad. Top 5 record in the NBA is no reason to show up? Gotta have a guy with his own line of sneakers to sell you before you can be bothered to show up? I guess my priorities for supporting my favorite TEAM must just be different than the rest of the fanbase.

They had a top record but they were not a top five team. Why do you think superstars are so hard to get? They are the draw. The Pacers could keep winning with that group for years and people would not turn out to see them. People come to see James, Wade, Kobe and others when they play on the road. To some extent, more people turn out in Indy when these players come to town. This is nothing new, it is just the way the world works......:cool:

Sandman21
07-08-2012, 01:13 PM
Wait, isn't the CIB deal up?

Why haven't we heard anything about renegotiating? Or is Simon now going to pay that 10 million a year again?

One more year I think.

billbradley
07-08-2012, 01:29 PM
One more year I think.

Looks like the last of three payments was January 15, 2012 unless I'm hungover and missing something...


Section 1.02. Loans to PBLLC for Fieldhouse Complex Operating Expenses. The CIB will provide PBLLC with the following loans, without interest, for the payment of operating and maintenance expenses of the Fieldhouse Complex (each an "Operating Loan" and collectively, the "Operating Loans"):

(a) $10,000,000 on the Effective Date;

(b)$10,000,000 on January 15, 2011; and

(c)$10,000,000 on January 15, 2012.

Sollozzo
07-08-2012, 01:33 PM
Sounds like many people think it's time to get a new owner, like maybe a Sam Nassi or Nelson Skalbania type who can turn this franchise into the finest team Las Vegas has ever had.

If everyone just gets together and refuses to spend any money on the Pacers, since they had the effrontery and gall to only make it to the second round of the playoffs, the unity of purpose will make absolutely certain that no one in Indianapolis will be burdened with spending their hard-earned money on the NBA ever again.

Oh... :rolleyes:


The 33 million dollar handout we as taxpayers gave them a couple of years ago is roughly half of what Roy's total contract would be. Yes, they had a decent rebuilding plan and it worked well last year, but much of it would be thrown down the crapper if we don't match on Roy. If they don't match on Roy then I just don't see how anyone can argue that the team is 100% committed to winning. A team that isn't 100% committed to winning isn't a team that I'm going to be eager to spend money on. If they are tight then I'll be tight too. I'm not saying I will not watch or won't go to any games at all. I'm just saying that I'll be less inclined to make the effort to go over to the Fieldhouse on a cold Tuesday night in the middle of January.

docpaul
07-08-2012, 02:01 PM
It confuses me that Bird would allegedly feel that way. Roy is one of his guys, all the way.

Foster was one of his guys, too. Think he'd be behind him if Fosters asking price was 10m last year?

Loving the player isn't the same as loving the value.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 02:02 PM
The Lakers are about to start a local TV contract that nets them $300,000,000 a season.

Make that $200,000,000

docpaul
07-08-2012, 02:08 PM
Again, not sure what's going on with the conspiracy theory stuff on this thread. Why are we looking for a zebra in a field of horses?

Am I on drugs or something? Wasn't it the consensus of the PD community that Hibbert wasnt worth a max contact?

Isnt it possible that the FO is weighing this choice out simply on the financial black and white value implications?

Lets be real here. If Hibbert played consistently, didn't shrink predictably, and wasn't so "soft" at times, would we even be having this conversation?

I love Hibbert. But let's get focused on the real issues here, and step away from the ledge of:

...Pritchard trying to screw Paul Allen
...Bird and Simon having a poisonous relationship
...Simon being a cheapskate
....ownership not being committed to winning a championship

Man, I bet David Falk is loving this hysteria... Cha ching!

Sandman21
07-08-2012, 02:39 PM
Make that $200,000,000

and half that going to other teams because you want a large payroll?

Wage
07-08-2012, 02:47 PM
They had a top record but they were not a top five team.

This is simply not true. I know how much you value "expert" opinions, but the facts are that teams decide where they stand on the court. This isn't ice skating, or even college football. There is no room for judges and voting. A team that finishes with the 5th best record was the 5th best team in the NBA that year.


People come to see James, Wade, Kobe and others when they play on the road. To some extent, more people turn out in Indy when these players come to town. This is nothing new, it is just the way the world works......:cool:

I'm not going to say you are wrong, but this has clearly not always been the case. The Pacers packed the fieldhouse for years with competitive teams lacking superstars. The closest thing the NBA Pacers have ever had to a superstar was JO, and he was borderline and not for long. And before someone says Reggie, in no way was he a superstar. Danny and Roy have aready made as many all-star games as Reggie ever did. He was loved, and he was an icon, but definately not a superstar.

Sandman21
07-08-2012, 02:52 PM
Danny and Roy have aready made as many all-star games as Reggie ever did. He was loved, and he was an icon, but definately not a superstar.
I know I can't count very well, but I'm pretty sure Reggie has 3 more trips to the ASG than Roy and Danny combined.

Wage
07-08-2012, 03:11 PM
I know I can't count very well, but I'm pretty sure Reggie has 3 more trips to the ASG than Roy and Danny combined.

Oppps. I was thinking of Dale Davis for some reason. My mistake. :blush:

Peck
07-08-2012, 03:20 PM
Oppps. I was thinking of Dale Davis for some reason. My mistake. :blush:

As we all should be.

pogi
07-08-2012, 04:28 PM
I'm not going to say you are wrong, but this has clearly not always been the case. The Pacers packed the fieldhouse for years with competitive teams lacking superstars. The closest thing the NBA Pacers have ever had to a superstar was JO, and he was borderline and not for long. And before someone says Reggie, in no way was he a superstar. Danny and Roy have aready made as many all-star games as Reggie ever did. He was loved, and he was an icon, but definately not a superstar.

Have to disagree with you here, somewhat. During the Reggie-perennial-ECF-days...yeah we were pretty packed on most nights. But, even then, besides playoffs, I've never seen MSA get as crazy as when Jordan's first game back from retirement.

The second or third year of Conseco, I went to games with friends, and felt like in alot of those games we had to lower our voices when we talked or others would've heard our conversation. I went to a Boston game and actually could tell you, verbatim, the trash-talk Paul Pierce was saying to Al Harrington before he crossed him over and hit a game-winning shot.

This last year, my wife and I went to 5 games. One being the game 5 Orlando series winner. And a large contrast in audience depending on whom we played. The OKC and last Miami game were packed. The Golden State and Utah game seemed after the lower level, nobody was there.

rm1369
07-08-2012, 04:52 PM
When did you start believing SImon didn't want to spend?

What players were not spent on specifically that caused you to believe this?

There was not one specific moment that triggered my belief. It has slowly taken shape while watching the team operate over the last 25 years. It predates the actions and rumors of this specific offseason - although, IMO, what we've heard and seen this offseason aligns with the belief.

To be clear, I believe:

- the Simons have viewed ownership of the Pacers as a a civic responsibility
- they do not view a championship as the primary goal of owning the team
- a good, consistant team the city can identify with is the primary goal
- because a title is not a priority, the team takes a very conservative "don't rock the boat" approach to team building
- the known quantity of our own FAs are prioritized over the higher risk of signing unknown FAs. Often with the result of overpaying our own guys
- trades are handled conservatively. Many being driven by internal discontent more than a desire to "chase a title"

Basically I believe the Simons have done the city a favor by owning the team. The team is a "charity" for the city as long as it isn't significantly burdensome. I believe if you gave them the option of being consistantly good for the next ten years with no title or winning a title, but having some extreme lows to go along with it, they would without a doubt chose the former.

Specific cases of free agents or trades mean little individually. The nature of what I'm saying is that the team has nothing driving them to take the risks necessary to win a title, because a title isn't the ultimate goal. Therefore every individual circumstance can be explained as being too risky to justify. When you look at 25 years of everything being to risky, then the picture becomes clearer.

The best individual example IMO is Barkley. It is the only time I can remember a top level player expressing a specific interest in playing for the Pacers. But IIRC, we were told he is to pricey to trade for. Would it have been risky? Of course. But it's the type of opportunity you see other teams take advantage of all the time. IMO, they felt there was no need to pursue him because the team was already a good enough to satisfy the primary goal , so why take the risk. The vast majority of the big trades the team has made were preceded by the traded player expressing some dissatisfaction with the team - Detlef, AD, Jalen, etc. Lacking that type of motivation the team will likely stand pat.

I started to list other players, trades, and occurrences that fall in line with my belief, but they have been discussed / debated to death. Read some of BBall's criticisms of DW and you will see a good list. DW has operated within the Simons framework and that's why he lasted here so long and why he is back. LB had bigger dreams and is gone. Coincedntaly, DW operated differently with the NYKs than he did with the Pacers - IMO he was more aggressive. Now maybe that is small market vs big market. Or maybe it has to do with the difference in ownership's goals. As I said, no smoking guns, but a long list of items that when taken together start to give a pretty clear view - IMO, of course.

naptownmenace
07-08-2012, 05:47 PM
name an all star quality guy who can get to the rim at will and shoot like both Deron and Eric can. This was our last shot to add before paying our own. Literally Deron and EJ fit the bill of our last remaining key piece we needed to a tee but we didnt go after one of them.

Who knows what the reminder of the off season holds??? I know one thing we aren't getting a difference maker to take us to a championship caliber team like we could of if we went after one RFA.


It's fine if you want to sugar coat and be unrealistic it but im not really into that kind of thing.

I wanted Deron or Nash in a Pacers uniform too. The reality is that they had no interest in playing for Indiana. The Pacers made a pitch to Nash (rumored to be 10 million a year) but he wasn't interested.

I don't think money was an issue there. I don't know if they dont like some of the players on the team or if they don't like the city but Free Agents don't like Indiana. It could be because the Pacers dont have a superstar on their team. No one is lining up to play for the Sixers either.

Eric Gordon wanted to play for the Pacers but I can't blame the Pacers for not making a max contract offer for a player that hasn't proven he can stay healthy for a full season or even make it through a season without missing at least 20 games. They also knew that New Orleans were going to match any offer so why bother?

OlBlu
07-08-2012, 05:55 PM
There was not one specific moment that triggered my belief. It has slowly taken shape while watching the team operate over the last 25 years. It predates the actions and rumors of this specific offseason - although, IMO, what we've heard and seen this offseason aligns with the belief.

To be clear, I believe:

- the Simons have viewed ownership of the Pacers as a a civic responsibility
- they do not view a championship as the primary goal of owning the team
- a good, consistant team the city can identify with is the primary goal
- because a title is not a priority, the team takes a very conservative "don't rock the boat" approach to team building
- the known quantity of our own FAs are prioritized over the higher risk of signing unknown FAs. Often with the result of overpaying our own guys
- trades are handled conservatively. Many being driven by internal discontent more than a desire to "chase a title"

Basically I believe the Simons have done the city a favor by owning the team. The team is a "charity" for the city as long as it isn't significantly burdensome. I believe if you gave them the option of being consistantly good for the next ten years with no title or winning a title, but having some extreme lows to go along with it, they would without a doubt chose the former.

Specific cases of free agents or trades mean little individually. The nature of what I'm saying is that the team has nothing driving them to take the risks necessary to win a title, because a title isn't the ultimate goal. Therefore every individual circumstance can be explained as being too risky to justify. When you look at 25 years of everything being to risky, then the picture becomes clearer.

The best individual example IMO is Barkley. It is the only time I can remember a top level player expressing a specific interest in playing for the Pacers. But IIRC, we were told he is to pricey to trade for. Would it have been risky? Of course. But it's the type of opportunity you see other teams take advantage of all the time. IMO, they felt there was no need to pursue him because the team was already a good enough to satisfy the primary goal , so why take the risk. The vast majority of the big trades the team has made were preceded by the traded player expressing some dissatisfaction with the team - Detlef, AD, Jalen, etc. Lacking that type of motivation the team will likely stand pat.

I started to list other players, trades, and occurrences that fall in line with my belief, but they have been discussed / debated to death. Read some of BBall's criticisms of DW and you will see a good list. DW has operated within the Simons framework and that's why he lasted here so long and why he is back. LB had bigger dreams and is gone. Coincedntaly, DW operated differently with the NYKs than he did with the Pacers - IMO he was more aggressive. Now maybe that is small market vs big market. Or maybe it has to do with the difference in ownership's goals. As I said, no smoking guns, but a long list of items that when taken together start to give a pretty clear view - IMO, of course.



This whole post can be answered or summed up in one sentence. The Pacers have never made a trade for or brought in a free agent superstar.......:cool:

littlerichard54
07-08-2012, 09:55 PM
This whole post can be answered or summed up in one sentence. The Pacers have never made a trade for or brought in a free agent superstar.......:cool:

Neither have the Spurs......

Outside of the Bostons, LAs, Miamis, NYs, etc; not many teams have. You have to give up too much in a trade and previously had to commit too much to sign a superstar FA.

joew8302
07-08-2012, 10:12 PM
Neither have the Spurs......

Outside of the Bostons, LAs, Miamis, NYs, etc; not many teams have. You have to give up too much in a trade and previously had to commit too much to sign a superstar FA.

I would thank this 1000 times if I could. There was 1 superstar (Deron Williams) who was a free agent this year, his agent puts out a flier saying he will only sign with NJ or Dallas and this suddenly makes Simon a cheapskate.

Simon can "go after" superstars all he wants, but they still have to agree to come here.

rabid
07-09-2012, 12:14 AM
Lets please get off the idea that Herb is the patron saint of basketball in Indianapolis. We can't say in one sentence that he is a shrewd businessman who has made billions in the Indianapolis area, and then in the next say that he deserves our reverence because he has been flogged repeated for years from owning this franchise out the good of his heart.

Except that isn't what Hicks said.

All Hicks was saying, I think, is that these types of posts just aren't warranted.


**** you simon

No one is saying you have to kiss Simon's butt. Just give a LITTLE respect where respect is due (or at least civility) when you are making whatever point... the reason Indy still has an NBA team is due to the Simons, end of story. That's not some feel-good sentiment, it's documented fact.

graphic-er
07-09-2012, 09:21 AM
Except that isn't what Hicks said.

All Hicks was saying, I think, is that these types of posts just aren't warranted.


No one is saying you have to kiss Simon's butt. Just give a LITTLE respect where respect is due (or at least civility) when you are making whatever point... the reason Indy still has an NBA team is due to the Simons, end of story. That's not some feel-good sentiment, it's documented fact.

You must not have read the entire post, because he started in about losing money every year yet being dedicated the city, and everyone should be thankful we have a team to spend money on.

As if there should be some sort of reverence for the man. I say to hell with that, the guy has made billions with the lucrative contracts he has received from the city.
I'm a loyal PAYING customer of his product for the past 5 years. I'm not one of these people who just watch on TV or only go to games when I get a free ticket or a deeply discounted ticket. I'm there, putting up my dough and buying a ticket package in advance. I am one of the few who will go see the them beat down the Raptors or Bobcats on a Wednesday night. I certainly have the right to say whatever I please about the way he may choose to run the organization.

duke dynamite
07-09-2012, 09:29 AM
I get that as a "customer" one has the right to voice an opinion about the product they're receiving, but that doesn't give one the right to be an asshat.

Since86
07-09-2012, 10:18 AM
It's an internet message board. Either suspend/ban him, because you're not going to get people to talk the way you'd like them to talk. Either do something about it, or move on.

BillS
07-09-2012, 11:20 AM
If they don't match on Roy then I just don't see how anyone can argue that the team is 100% committed to winning.

We can't even get the intelligent hard core fans on this message board to agree whether signing Roy to the max is a good idea or cap hell. How can it be such a no-brainer? I guarantee if we sign Roy to the max and he basically stays at the same level, the act of wasting money by signing him instead of using it to get a bigger name free agent will be used as the NEXT reason Simon isn't "100% committed to winning".

Naptown_Seth
07-09-2012, 11:24 AM
He didn't want to pay a Granger level shooter with an big injury history a max deal?

That dirty, cheap jerk.

He wants to avoid the luxury tax on an iffy signing for a team with the worst fan support in the league.

Hey fans, how about if Simon is digging in for the extra $15-20m per year, you maybe get off your fat *** and buy a couple $10 seats from time to time. Who's the cheapskate again?

Bird wanted the WRONG piece for too high a price. Did you see Simon balk at the GEORGE HILL RESIGN? Nope. And the word is mgmt has the option to resign Roy IF IT'S A SOLID DEAL.

Indy can't swing and miss over the luxury tax like NY or LA, but really it's kinda tough to do anyway. EJ's max deal seems like a huge risk.



Let me make it easier to understand - would anyone hear accuse Simon of being "cheap" if he told Bird that he wouldn't pay Artest a max deal for 4 years now. Of course not, so there is a line that we all know is out there on quality deals versus poor spending. Some of you just like EJ more and don't see it as a risk, just like the Roy debate.

But these signings ARE DEBATABLE. These aren't no-brainers. This isn't Lebron or Kobe or even Ray Allen. These are tough calls.

DAVID WEST GOT MORE PER YEAR THAN BOSTON OFFERED - cheap owner. BARBOSA was brought in for a $0 salary 2nd round pick - cheap owner. DJones was a small deal but was still an overpay - cheap owner. The Pacers just offered Nash MORE THAN THE LAKERS are giving him - cheap owner.

Seriously, where are all these guys that aren't getting paid in Indy? I know that JO did, Tinsley did, Bender did, Croshere did, Harrington did (gave up the pick to put him in the TE when no one else could).







I'm not an ownership apologist even. But this is just a witch hunt where people want to believe an angle and look at everything through that light. It's not cheap till it's a really good, resonable option and the owner passes on it.

When Simon does something like that then I'll agree.

Freaking Bird and his "small market" bulls**** - what part of YOU BLEW PAST THE CAP AND RAN OUT OF MONEY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND LARRY? Nice GM work, blaming the owner for your inability to stay under the cap so you can actually acquire talent.

The Pacers have only been under the NBA cap the last 2 seasons after some 20 or more above it, forced to trade or MLE or MIN players only. Yep, that's a cheapskate alright.

And if you sign Gordon and Hibbert then that's it, that's your team for the next 5-8 years unless they retire or get traded, and why are you signing them if you are just going to be trading them?

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 11:33 AM
But these signings ARE DEBATABLE. These aren't no-brainers. This isn't Lebron or Kobe or even Ray Allen. These are tough calls.

Kobe, Lebron, Ray Allen, Nash are not coming here, EJ wanted to come here that's the difference, you take the risk when you have a potential star that want's to be a Pacers, hell, even Crawford said NO to the Pacers, explain to me how you are going to convince stars players to come here? we have the money and a good team and not even a 38 years old Nash wanted to play here.

Naptown_Seth
07-09-2012, 11:38 AM
We can't even get the intelligent hard core fans on this message board to agree whether signing Roy to the max is a good idea or cap hell. How can it be such a no-brainer? I guarantee if we sign Roy to the max and he basically stays at the same level, the act of wasting money by signing him instead of using it to get a bigger name free agent will be used as the NEXT reason Simon isn't "100% committed to winning".
Exactly.

Shame on Bird for using this excuse, it sounds like a spoiled kid who didn't get to have donuts for dinner. He's got the same cap limits as all the other teams, and VERY few (like 1-2) are willing to go over the new lux tax. Or is Mark Cuban the epitome of an owner who won't pay to win since he's trying to avoid the massive salary penalties of the next tax.


In fact, which teams were over the LUXURY TAX last year or this year or any of the prior 5 years. Let's get the official list so we can fairly compare Simon's methods with all the other teams. If he's so cheap then we will see 7-8 teams "trying to win" at the very least, and really more if you want Herb to stand out on the cheap side.

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 11:43 AM
Exactly.

Shame on Bird for using this excuse, it sounds like a spoiled kid who didn't get to have donuts for dinner. He's got the same cap limits as all the other teams, and VERY few (like 1-2) are willing to go over the new lux tax. Or is Mark Cuban the epitome of an owner who won't pay to win since he's trying to avoid the massive salary penalties of the next tax.


In fact, which teams were over the LUXURY TAX last year or this year or any of the prior 5 years. Let's get the official list so we can fairly compare Simon's methods with all the other teams. If he's so cheap then we will see 7-8 teams "trying to win" at the very least, and really more if you want Herb to stand out on the cheap side.

Cuban was not trying to avoid anything he was trying to get Howard/Dwill.

BillS
07-09-2012, 11:44 AM
EJ wanted to come here that's the difference, you take the risk when you have a potential star that want's to be a Pacers, hell, even Crawford said NO to the Pacers, explain to me how you are going to convince stars players to come here? we have the money and a good team and not even a 38 years old Nash wanted to play here.

And I don't believe EJ is a no-brainer given his injury history. If signing Roy to the max and having him stay the same would cause people to talk about how stupid and/or unmotivated to win Walsh & Simon are, what does signing EJ to the max to wear pretty suits behind the bench do?

There's a point at which you assess the risk as well as the reward. The last time we mistook the risk the team imploded.

BillS
07-09-2012, 11:45 AM
Cuban was not trying to avoid anything he was trying to get Howard/Dwill.

As I recall he didn't get far enough under the cap to sign either one outright at the max, did he? Certainly not to get both.

Naptown_Seth
07-09-2012, 11:46 AM
I think they are better off moving to another city if
they expect people to attend games and actually pay for a few seats from time to time.

I assume that's what you really meant to say.

If there is one NBA fanbase that has no room to talk about spending and expectations from ownership, it's the Indy NBA fanbase. The attendance to results ratio was the worst in the NBA by far, and it was the same last year after Vogel took over. You signed West and Hill (kinda) which is about as much as you could do to make a splash last year, and that got you bottom of the barrel attendance.

I used to dread the Pacers moving, but now I don't see any reason to stay.


By the way, don't you love how Bird complains about ownership and small-market ownership, but then says "oh, I'm too old to get into ownership myself" despite being younger than most owners. How convenient that he doesn't want to put himself in Simon's shoes.

If Simon is doing such a crap job then why doesn't Larry go find all this free cash and show Herb how to run a team in Indy the right way.

Larry - put your money where your mouth is, and maybe get 10K-15K of your devotees to show up 41 times a season too.

cinotimz
07-09-2012, 11:58 AM
Kobe, Lebron, Ray Allen, Nash are not coming here, EJ wanted to come here that's the difference, you take the risk when you have a potential star that want's to be a Pacers, hell, even Crawford said NO to the Pacers, explain to me how you are going to convince stars players to come here? we have the money and a good team and not even a 38 years old Nash wanted to play here.

This....

I think the EJ thing played a huge role in Birds departure. Not sure if its the money/risk thing or the not signing offer sheets to Restricted Free agents that ultimately was the stumbling block. We may never know. I almost tend to believe its the latter, because from a business standpoint, while a risk given his injury history, the fact u have a local boy who ur basketball people may believe is a legit star in the making and would certainly help at the box office...well its hard to see Simon rejecting such...especially given his history....so it seems like it might be more a matter of principle...ala the RFA issue...

The other thing that hasnt really been mentioned I dont believe is...I believe i read somewhere that Bird took a reduction in salary from 3 million to 1 million when he stayed on last year. Maybe the reigning executive of the year wanted his prior salary reinstated and Simon balked.

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 11:58 AM
=BillS;1475870]And I don't believe EJ is a no-brainer given his injury history.

That's you opinion and I respect that but I disagree.



If signing Roy to the max and having him stay the same would cause people to talk about how stupid and/or unmotivated to win Walsh & Simon are, what does signing EJ to the max to wear pretty suits behind the bench do?

Re-signing Roy won't be stupid, re-signing Roy and staying with the same team is stupid in my opinion, now if we are looking to have a second round exit ceiling, yeah go ahead and stay with the same people.

Regarding EJ nobody knows how healthy he is, I'm pretty sure teams do a body check before signing him or something like that.




There's a point at which you assess the risk as well as the reward. The last time we mistook the risk the team imploded.


We took a chance on many crazy characters in one team at one time, this is way different.

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 12:00 PM
As I recall he didn't get far enough under the cap to sign either one outright at the max, did he? Certainly not to get both.

Yep he was trying to get both, I think he had a deal with a team for them to take on Marion's contract.

Naptown_Seth
07-09-2012, 12:00 PM
I have a feeling that playoff games and winning season records might just be enough and the more I think about it the more that sounds like the 90's to me.
Said the Utah, Seattle, Miami, New York fanbases.

Clearly when they lost games to the same team's Indy was losing too it was a sign that "just getting to the Con Finals more than anyone else is good enough for us".

Give me another 90's run any day of the week. I'm sorry your Ferrari F40 didn't come with On-Star, but my standards just high enough to understand why it bothers you.



Jesus Peck. I mean I guess if 6 titles is enough for Mike then go ahead and play baseball for 2 years. I don't know, I guess Jordan just didn't have the will to win 8.

The old "if they didn't win it all it mean they weren't fielding an elite team" chestnut that just won't die the appropriate death it deserves.

The Dodgers and Orioles and Rangers and Red Sox and Yanks have all thrown tons of money at rosters, and MOST OF THE TIME those teams have come up short....just satisfied with a good season record apparently. I mean the Yanks beating Boston or the Ranger, the Marlins beating the Yanks, the D-backs beating the Yanks - that had nothing to do with them being better and everything to do with the Yanks just being unwilling to spend what it takes to win it all.


If you are in the Con Finals or Champ Series or Finals or World Series or AFC/NFC CG or Super Bowl and you lose YOU STILL WERE GREAT. Especially if you do it EVERY FREAKING YEAR.

It's insulting to the idea of winning itself to treat FIVE ECF/1 Finals in 7 years as "satisfied to just be pretty good". How many teams have played 5 potential series winning games in the Con Finals in the last 20 years, and that's with the Pacers JOB run. 4 times the Pacers played to go to the Finals and lost, they started 48 minutes away from being in the Finals 4 freaking times.

That laughs in the face of "just happy to be here".

Sollozzo
07-09-2012, 12:01 PM
We can't even get the intelligent hard core fans on this message board to agree whether signing Roy to the max is a good idea or cap hell. How can it be such a no-brainer?


Huh? 128 members of this forum voted on this very question, and 92% voted in favor of keeping Roy. That seems like pretty strong agreement to me. I don't think I've ever seen such a lopsided poll on this forum in regard to such an important question.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?73819-Should-the-Pacers-match-Portland-s-offer-sheet-to-Roy

Naptown_Seth
07-09-2012, 12:03 PM
Cuban was not trying to avoid anything he was trying to get Howard/Dwill.
Cuban has said outright that he wants no part of the luxury tax. He was making a run to get DWill to replace Kidd and almost did it, but that wouldn't put him over the lux tax and it's not adding a piece, it's REPLACING a piece.

DWill is better, but that's still like letting Granger walk to sign EJ, and that's different than this situation.

graphic-er
07-09-2012, 12:10 PM
A good owner in the NBA listens to his front office. If your current Executive of the Year tells you we need to get Eric Gordon to push this team to the next level.....well you should probably listen to him.

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 12:10 PM
they expect people to attend games and actually pay for a few seats from time to time.

I assume that's what you really meant to say.

If there is one NBA fanbase that has no room to talk about spending and expectations from ownership, it's the Indy NBA fanbase. The attendance to results ratio was the worst in the NBA by far, and it was the same last year after Vogel took over. You signed West and Hill (kinda) which is about as much as you could do to make a splash last year, and that got you bottom of the barrel attendance.

I used to dread the Pacers moving, but now I don't see any reason to stay.


By the way, don't you love how Bird complains about ownership and small-market ownership, but then says "oh, I'm too old to get into ownership myself" despite being younger than most owners. How convenient that he doesn't want to put himself in Simon's shoes.

If Simon is doing such a crap job then why doesn't Larry go find all this free cash and show Herb how to run a team in Indy the right way.

Larry - put your money where your mouth is, and maybe get 10K-15K of your devotees to show up 41 times a season too.

Are you kidding me? you think that people are going to magically start to show up after years and years of the clown of JOB? the Pacers are lucky they get as many people now.

To me they haven't fulfill their promise, 5 or 4 years ago they told us about this great plan that was going to give us cap space so we could bring players and do this and do that and so far they haven't done s***, now this year they are going to tell us how successful this off season was when they get to re-sign Roy and get another bench player, I'm sorry if I don't get excited about that.

Since86
07-09-2012, 12:14 PM
In two seasons the Pacers went from 32-50 (a winning % of 39%) to 42-24 (63.6%) and apparently the Pacers aren't making strides fast enough. Go figure.

BillS
07-09-2012, 12:15 PM
Huh? 128 members of this forum voted on this very question, and 92% voted in favor of keeping Roy. That seems like pretty strong agreement to me. I don't think I've ever seen such a lopsided poll on this forum in regard to such an important question.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?73819-Should-the-Pacers-match-Portland-s-offer-sheet-to-Roy

But many of the ones voting "yes" expressed concern about the amount and the effect it will have on signing other players. It really wasn't like a "yes" vote in the poll equated to "without reservation". The very idea that there is a DISCUSSION, and that many of those people would themselves sign Roy but would not freak out if Roy is NOT signed, is what makes it a reasonable disagreement rather than a good move/stupid move dichotomy.

My problem is that not signing Roy is being treated as the basketball IQ equivalent of not signing LeBron or Dwight or Kobe (without some sort of context all of which would be clearly stupid and cheap moves). There ARE other things that could be done with that money that would bring as much benefit at some point as signing Roy would bring.

Not signing Roy would be a very public statement that there is SOME other purpose for the team's future. I mostly fear that the Pacers organization will fail to COMMUNICATE that purpose, as always, which will leave people absolutely convinced that Simon is a cheapskate and that the team should just go away because they'll never ever compete again.

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 12:16 PM
Cuban has said outright that he wants no part of the luxury tax. He was making a run to get DWill to replace Kidd and almost did it, but that wouldn't put him over the lux tax and it's not adding a piece, it's REPLACING a piece.

DWill is better, but that's still like letting Granger walk to sign EJ, and that's different than this situation.

He want's not part of the luxury tax unless he has Dwill/Howard/Dirk in the same team, do you think he decided to screw another possible year for a championship just because he wanted to avoid the luxury tax? no, Cuban wanted a big 3 in Dallas and he was willing to pay the price for it.

graphic-er
07-09-2012, 12:20 PM
Are you kidding me? you think that people are going to magically start to show up after years and years of the clown of JOB? the Pacers are lucky they get as many people now.

To me they haven't fulfill their promise, 5 or 4 years ago they told us about this great plan that was going to give us cap space so we could bring players and do this and do that and so far they haven't done s***, now this year they are going to tell us how successful this off season was when they get to re-sign Roy and get another bench player, I'm sorry if I don't get excited about that.

Gosh I can't thank this enough. The way the front office talked about the 3 year plan, they were gonna go after a real difference maker to pair with Danny Granger and grow and develop these young players. Once they have an opportunity to do that they passed. Maybe West counts as that difference maker? I dunno, a 2 year contract certainly doesn't show that. But if you are building towards a contender, then surely you realize that signing a top Free Agent is a must if you spend that past 5 years drafting in the middle of the 1st round.

BillS
07-09-2012, 12:23 PM
Are you kidding me? you think that people are going to magically start to show up after years and years of the clown of JOB? the Pacers are lucky they get as many people now.

To me they haven't fulfill their promise, 5 or 4 years ago they told us about this great plan that was going to give us cap space so we could bring players and do this and do that and so far they haven't done s***, now this year they are going to tell us how successful this off season was when they get to re-sign Roy and get another bench player, I'm sorry if I don't get excited about that.

So how fast were they supposed to recover? Going from nothing to playoffs to second round isn't fast enough? Going from a losing season to a .636 season is too slow? Which is more important, big roster moves or results - and what result is good enough?

From 1994-2004 the Pacers were one of the most consistent high-level playoff teams in the league. Yep, there were bad years after that, but limiting the definition of success to be "top-ten player in the NBA with full supporting cast" AND "NBA championship IMMEDIATELY" is unrealistic.

Sollozzo
07-09-2012, 12:25 PM
In two seasons the Pacers went from 32-50 (a winning % of 39%) to 42-24 (63.6%) and apparently the Pacers aren't making strides fast enough. Go figure.


And that's what will be so painful if we really do end up losing Roy. We ended up having a very solid rebuilding plan that restored us to success, but much of it would be thrown down the crapper if we don't keep him.

BillS
07-09-2012, 12:26 PM
He want's not part of the luxury tax unless he has Dwill/Howard/Dirk in the same team, do you think he decided to screw another possible year for a championship just because he wanted to avoid the luxury tax? no, Cuban wanted a big 3 in Dallas and he was willing to pay the price for it.

If he couldn't get under the cap just HOW was he going to pay the price for it, since he wasn't going to sign Dwill/Howard outright? Try to convince someone to trade one of those three for his lower end players? If that was the case why would he have to get under the LT first - especially by dumping one of the key supporting roleplayers from the previous year's championship team? You can still make trades when over the LT.

Since86
07-09-2012, 12:29 PM
Gosh I can't thank this enough. The way the front office talked about the 3 year plan, they were gonna go after a real difference maker to pair with Danny Granger and grow and develop these young players. Once they have an opportunity to do that they passed. Maybe West counts as that difference maker? I dunno, a 2 year contract certainly doesn't show that. But if you are building towards a contender, then surely you realize that signing a top Free Agent is a must if you spend that past 5 years drafting in the middle of the 1st round.

So if they offered a max contract to EJ, and the Hornet's matched, you'd feel better about the situation?

I'm just trying to figure this out. I didn't realize that simply offering a contract to a guy, when there's no shot of actually obtaining him as a player was such a difference maker for people.

They offered more money to Nash than the Lakers.
They're not on DWill's list.
NO is willing to match any offer sheet signed by EJ.

The options you want them to pursue, and using against them, seem a little far fetched and unrealistic.

billbradley
07-09-2012, 12:29 PM
Gosh I can't thank this enough. The way the front office talked about the 3 year plan, they were gonna go after a real difference maker to pair with Danny Granger and grow and develop these young players. Once they have an opportunity to do that they passed. Maybe West counts as that difference maker? I dunno, a 2 year contract certainly doesn't show that. But if you are building towards a contender, then surely you realize that signing a top Free Agent is a must if you spend that past 5 years drafting in the middle of the 1st round.

I'm confused, this entire article is based on EJ, an injury prone player who may or not of preferred Phoenix over Indy not having anything to do with the offer.

And the Hornets are matching anyway!

What opportunity has Indy passed up because of not wanting to spend?

OlBlu
07-09-2012, 12:30 PM
I'm confused, this entire article is based on EJ, an injury prone player who may or not of preferred Phoenix over Indy not having anything to do with the offer.

What opportunity has Indy passed up because of not wanting to spend?

Just about every one in the past 40 years. D. West is the first major free agent signing.....:cool:

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 12:31 PM
Gosh I can't thank this enough. The way the front office talked about the 3 year plan, they were gonna go after a real difference maker to pair with Danny Granger and grow and develop these young players. Once they have an opportunity to do that they passed. Maybe West counts as that difference maker? I dunno, a 2 year contract certainly doesn't show that. But if you are building towards a contender, then surely you realize that signing a top Free Agent is a must if you spend that past 5 years drafting in the middle of the 1st round.

Yep and it looks like that 3,4,5 years plan is going to become another 3,4,5 years plan.

Now I keep hearing the word "continuation" from Wells and other people in twitter, they say is the only way to compete, that "continuation is the only way to beat Miami" are you kidding me? you can have this team in "continuation" for the next ten years and they still won't have the talent level to beat Miami, or BLK, or a healthy Chicago, or Boston or even a healthy New York.

BillS
07-09-2012, 12:33 PM
Just about every one in the past 40 years. D. West is the first major free agent signing.....:cool:

I really hate the persistent notion that "failed to sign" means "didn't bother to try".

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Since86
07-09-2012, 12:33 PM
Doubling your winning percentage, and not signing guys that you don't have the option to sign is now valid criticism?

The Sleeze
07-09-2012, 12:37 PM
The Pacers are actually keeping the opportunity to get Gordon open by not offering a contract. If a team offers a contract and the Hornets match, then he can't be traded to the offering team for the duration of the contract. So Gordon wouldn't be able to come here for 4 years.

Also after he is matched by the Hornets they can trade him in the first year, but he has veto rights, so in a way he gets to choose the trading partner. PHX would be out of the running because of the rule above.

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 12:40 PM
So how fast were they supposed to recover? Going from nothing to playoffs to second round isn't fast enough? Going from a losing season to a .636 season is too slow? Which is more important, big roster moves or results - and what result is good enough?

From 1994-2004 the Pacers were one of the most consistent high-level playoff teams in the league. Yep, there were bad years after that, but limiting the definition of success to be "top-ten player in the NBA with full supporting cast" AND "NBA championship IMMEDIATELY" is unrealistic.

Quick success for the now is not what I'm looking for, the Bucks and Bobcats tried this few years ago and didn't work well for them, I'm looking for chance to compete for a championship in the future, at this moment we don't have the talent to compete for a championship in the future, we are building for the "nice" quick success of the now, at this moment we only have 3 players that are going to be part of the future in Roy, PG and Hill, everybody else is either replaceable or old, do you think we have a chance to compete with those 3 guys? I don't.


edit: Actually quick success has always been the part that grinded my gears with Larry Bird, he tried the quick success bs for a long time and it finally worked out for him last year, that doesn't mean that's going to work out for this team in the future, there is a reason why I don't want to bring old players here, because I want us to build a team for the future when Roy and Paul George are in their prime.

Peck
07-09-2012, 12:43 PM
I don't have time to respond to all of this right now but I want to ask one thing.

Some of you guys keep saying the Pacers offered more to Nash than the Lakers did. Can you please produce a link or at the very least direct us to a quote from a reputable source to show this.

I asked Hicks this the other day on another thread because he was using this as gospel as well, I'm not saying it's false but I would just like to see it somewhere other than quoted on here.

Does it change anything if we didn't offer him that money? I don't think so, but then again it does eliminate this alleged offer from being used as a defense for the Pacers not lowballing people this summer.

graphic-er
07-09-2012, 12:46 PM
You folks have no idea if NOLA is going to match or not. At the very least it opens the door for NOLA and PHX to work a sign and trade before EJ signs the offer sheet. All I wanted is for the Pacers to be in that position. It should have been a no-brainer for the Front office. Lock up EJ quickly so that we can secure a sign and trade deal if they wanted to match.

And maybe Sleeze is right, that the Pacers not getting him under contract will work out for the better in being able to trade for him in the future, but thats if NOLA matches. If NOLA doesn't match, then the Pacers lost out big time.

But EJ has basically done his part in the play. He came out and publicly stated he had no desire to play in NOLA. Thats very hard for a team to overlook for a max contract.

rabid
07-09-2012, 12:48 PM
You must not have read the entire post, because he started in about losing money every year yet being dedicated the city, and everyone should be thankful we have a team to spend money on.

As if there should be some sort of reverence for the man. I say to hell with that, the guy has made billions with the lucrative contracts he has received from the city.
I'm a loyal PAYING customer of his product for the past 5 years. I'm not one of these people who just watch on TV or only go to games when I get a free ticket or a deeply discounted ticket. I'm there, putting up my dough and buying a ticket package in advance. I am one of the few who will go see the them beat down the Raptors or Bobcats on a Wednesday night. I certainly have the right to say whatever I please about the way he may choose to run the organization.

Yes you have the right to say whatever you want. But there's a classy way to do that, and the ******* way to do it. Choose wisely!

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 12:50 PM
So if they offered a max contract to EJ, and the Hornet's matched, you'd feel better about the situation?

I'm just trying to figure this out. I didn't realize that simply offering a contract to a guy, when there's no shot of actually obtaining him as a player was such a difference maker for people.

They offered more money to Nash than the Lakers.
They're not on DWill's list.
NO is willing to match any offer sheet signed by EJ.

The options you want them to pursue, and using against them, seem a little far fetched and unrealistic.

It's not just about EJ, you guys keep hammering this like he is the only player, again we were told many many times that we were going to have cap space, picks and pieces to make s*** happen, so now you tell me, how long has been since we got all this cap space? it's going to be 2 years and so far nothing, how patient you want people to be? 6, 7 years of misery and you want people to be patient? I don't think so.

The Sleeze
07-09-2012, 01:00 PM
And maybe Sleeze is right, that the Pacers not getting him under contract will work out for the better in being able to trade for him in the future, but thats if NOLA matches. If NOLA doesn't match, then the Pacers lost out big time.

I'm starting to think that NOLA has to match. If they don't then they let CP3 go for nothing. Even if Gordon states he won't play for the Hornets, they still have to sign him and at least get something for him in a trade.

rabid
07-09-2012, 01:13 PM
It's not just about EJ, you guys keep hammering this like he is the only player, again we were told many many times that we were going to have cap space, picks and pieces to make s*** happen, so now you tell me, how long has been since we got all this cap space? it's going to be 2 years and so far nothing, how patient you want people to be? 6, 7 years of misery and you want people to be patient? I don't think so.

Sometimes I honestly wonder what it would take to make you happy... the team has gone from terrible to playoffs to second round in just 2 years. What the heck more do you reasonably expect?

Oh so they're not moving fast enough for you, ok. They're not signing enough expensive big name free agents, got it. They're not "making **** happen," whatever that means. Bummer dude. I guess none of our recent improvement really matters. I guess none of our young players is ever going to get better.

Maybe you'd be happier as a fan of the New York Knicks, they sure make **** happen, they have so many flashy free agents you almost forget how much they've underachieved or how hopeless their immediate future looks.

---------

Yes I'm teasing you here a bit, but seriously man I think you're going to continue being disappointed given the expectations you have... I'm guessing we will probably re-sign Roy and Hill and add one or two more pieces this summer and that will be it.

It is what it is...

Since86
07-09-2012, 01:17 PM
It's not just about EJ, you guys keep hammering this like he is the only player, again we were told many many times that we were going to have cap space, picks and pieces to make s*** happen, so now you tell me, how long has been since we got all this cap space? it's going to be 2 years and so far nothing, how patient you want people to be? 6, 7 years of misery and you want people to be patient? I don't think so.

Then who else fits the bill that you're clammoring for?

Since86
07-09-2012, 01:21 PM
You folks have no idea if NOLA is going to match or not.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/04/suns-offer-eric-gordon-max-deal-hornets-will-match/

BillS
07-09-2012, 01:23 PM
Quick success for the now is not what I'm looking for, the Bucks and Bobcats tried this few years ago and didn't work well for them, I'm looking for chance to compete for a championship in the future, at this moment we don't have the talent to compete for a championship in the future, we are building for the "nice" quick success of the now, at this moment we only have 3 players that are going to be part of the future in Roy, PG and Hill, everybody else is either replaceable or old, do you think we have a chance to compete with those 3 guys? I don't.


edit: Actually quick success has always been the part that grinded my gears with Larry Bird, he tried the quick success bs for a long time and it finally worked out for him last year, that doesn't mean that's going to work out for this team in the future, there is a reason why I don't want to bring old players here, because I want us to build a team for the future when Roy and Paul George are in their prime.

So, if I understand correctly, you aren't saying we're not moving fast enough, you're saying we're trying to move too fast by getting "now" pieces instead of "later" pieces?

If this is the case, then why do you also complain that it will take another 3-5 years? How does getting "later" pieces translate into success before those pieces are actually ready?

Also, how does a team guarantee success when risking on a player who is being gotten for "potential"?

So, bottom line, are you saying the RESULT isn't as important as making moves with superstar potential, or are you saying that the moves for superstar potential won't count UNLESS they are successful?

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE=BillS;1476010]So, if I understand correctly, you aren't saying we're not moving fast enough, you're saying we're trying to move too fast by getting "now" pieces instead of "later" pieces?

I think we can accomplish the "win now mode" and "compete for a championship in the future" by replacing the older players with younger ones that are going to be here when Roy/PG hit their prime.



If this is the case, then why do you also complain that it will take another 3-5 years? How does getting "later" pieces translate into success before those pieces are actually ready?

I think you can be successful if you replace the older pieces with new ones I don't think it will take another 3-5 years if you do that, my point is that the ceiling I see with this team right now is not higher than the second round in the playoffs, OK you compete for the second round of the playoffs in the next 2-3 years and then what? by that time Danny/West are long gone or retired and we will have to start the rebuilding, unless we bring two other older players that could help us to stay in the second round of the playoffs forever.


Also, how does a team guarantee success when risking on a player who is being gotten for "potential"?

So, bottom line, are you saying the RESULT isn't as important as making moves with superstar potential, or are you saying that the moves for superstar potential won't count UNLESS they are successful?

I'm not talking about players with superstar potential, I'm talking about players that are better than the older players we have already, young players that could grow with our other young players, players that could probably be all stars someday.

BillS
07-09-2012, 01:50 PM
I'm not talking about players with superstar potential, I'm talking about players that are better than the older players we have already, young players that could grow with our other young players, players that could probably be all stars someday.

The "probably" is still the key word here. If there's no guarantee, what happens if that young player stacked team doesn't pan out? Do you consider it a success because they followed a plan of action that didn't work? Do you consider it a failure because they took a risk that didn't produce the required result? And, meanwhile, do casual fans show up for players with potential continuing to lose while they get experience - remember, we're NOT talking superstar potential (and therefore hyped crowd draws) here.

Unless your goal is to spend 5 of every 7 years rebuilding, with only two of those years being ones where you have some vaguely defined "legitimate" shot at a championship - and this entire argument is predicated on the idea that getting to the playoffs second round is NOT a legitimate shot - you HAVE to spend some time at lower successful tiers. Otherwise, every single team that got a top-3 pick and surrounded him with supporting talent of the same age would have a championship. It doesn't work that way.

vnzla81
07-09-2012, 02:01 PM
The "probably" is still the key word here. If there's no guarantee, what happens if that young player stacked team doesn't pan out? Do you consider it a success because they followed a plan of action that didn't work? Do you consider it a failure because they took a risk that didn't produce the required result? And, meanwhile, do casual fans show up for players with potential continuing to lose while they get experience - remember, we're NOT talking superstar potential (and therefore hyped crowd draws) here.

Unless your goal is to spend 5 of every 7 years rebuilding, with only two of those years being ones where you have some vaguely defined "legitimate" shot at a championship - and this entire argument is predicated on the idea that getting to the playoffs second round is NOT a legitimate shot - you HAVE to spend some time at lower successful tiers. Otherwise, every single team that got a top-3 pick and surrounded him with supporting talent of the same age would have a championship. It doesn't work that way.

Bills the "young players" I'm talking about are already productive players in the NBA, I'm not talking about rookies,second year players or players with "potential" (Milsap 27, Humpries 26, Monta 26, Josh Smith26, etc) those are players that came to mind but I'm pretty sure there are more.

Since86
07-09-2012, 02:08 PM
And the Pacers don't have any ability to get any of those guys, without making a trade that would cost young talent like Roy (assuming he's re-signed) or PG.

Which is why I asked you already to provide some names, other than EJ, that are a realistic option that would get your approval.

What you're asking for is a solution, but the method of getting those players is completely unrealistic.