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dewman_32
07-06-2012, 10:01 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/8137389/agent-ray-allen-leaves-boston-celtics-champion-miami-heat

Damn, damn, damn... I know the P's weren't in the running (they didn't even reach out to him), but this helps the Heat out a lot.

joew8302
07-06-2012, 10:02 PM
The Miami Heat may win 68 games next season. I don't see how anyone will stop a lineup of Chalmers, Allen, Wade, James and Bosh.

1984
07-06-2012, 10:03 PM
Ray Allen's knees are the Miami Heats worst enemy.

neosmndrew
07-06-2012, 10:12 PM
Ray Allen's knees are the Miami Heats worst enemy.

This may force Wade into playing PG, which I always have seen as his achilles heel.

Pacersalltheway10
07-06-2012, 10:13 PM
I ****ing hate old ring chasers

Pacerfan
07-06-2012, 10:17 PM
I ****ing hate old ring chasers

I hope Ray Allen and the Heat fail badly next year. This can't keep going on. Why not just leave teams in NY, LA, Miami, and Boston and get rid of the rest.

MiaDragon
07-06-2012, 10:17 PM
Ray Allen's knees are the Miami Heats worst enemy.

He could sit all year and save them for the playoffs.

Blackhawk4
07-06-2012, 10:18 PM
I ****ing hate old ring chasers

Because most NBA players aren't in there to win a ring to begin with? You might as well hate players who want to win a ring regardless of their age.

Steagles
07-06-2012, 10:40 PM
Something HAS to be done about this ****. Stern knows that fans will start hating the league if this doesn't stop.


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pacer4ever
07-06-2012, 10:41 PM
Something HAS to be done about this ****. Stern knows that fans will start hating the league if this doesn't stop.


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:wtf2:

Steagles
07-06-2012, 10:41 PM
This may force Wade into playing PG, which I always have seen as his achilles heel.

Lebron would play point first.


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Blackhawk4
07-06-2012, 10:48 PM
Something HAS to be done about this ****. Stern knows that fans will start hating the league if this doesn't stop.


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http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/19853685.jpg

Young
07-06-2012, 10:49 PM
Because most NBA players aren't in there to win a ring to begin with? You might as well hate players who want to win a ring regardless of their age.

Ray Allen just played a key part on a team that took the eventual NBA Champions to 7 games in the Conference Finals. Now he jumps ship to the team that beat the team he was a part of? Maybe I am too old school but I just hate that. I understand and appreciate the desire to win a ring but you cannot tell me that winning a ring with the Heat would be nearly the same as winning one with the Celtics.

Did this stuff go on in the 80s and 90s? Ray Allen is no Larry Bird but as an example Larry would not have wanted to team up with Magic...Larry wanted to beat Magic. I guess that is the difference between players of yesterday and players of today.

Coupe
07-06-2012, 10:57 PM
Something HAS to be done about this ****. Stern knows that fans will start hating the league if this doesn't stop.


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http://allthingsd.com/files/2012/07/You-Dont-Say.jpg

Shade
07-06-2012, 10:59 PM
It's bad enough watching fans bandwagon-jump. Watching players do it too is just pathetic.

Sookie
07-06-2012, 11:01 PM
I don't think the Celtics really wanted Ray back. (They were pretty clear that he would have had a significantly reduced role.) I don't know that this was about getting rings so much as being on a team capable of winning it all - and having a bigger role in it. He's an older guy, why would he go to a team that doesn't have a shot at a championship?

Makes me all conflicted..I really dislike the Heat.

Steagles
07-06-2012, 11:02 PM
Screw this. I hate the NBA. I'm going to go root for the Hoosiers.


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Blackhawk4
07-06-2012, 11:03 PM
Ray Allen just played a key part on a team that took the eventual NBA Champions to 7 games in the Conference Finals. Now he jumps ship to the team that beat the team he was a part of? Maybe I am too old school but I just hate that. I understand and appreciate the desire to win a ring but you cannot tell me that winning a ring with the Heat would be nearly the same as winning one with the Celtics.

Did this stuff go on in the 80s and 90s? Ray Allen is no Larry Bird but as an example Larry would not have wanted to team up with Magic...Larry wanted to beat Magic. I guess that is the difference between players of yesterday and players of today.
And that is Larry's choice. Just because Larry, Magic and Jordan didn't do it doesn't mean every other player in the NBA has be like them and follow their stance. Ray Allen is a free agent. If he wants to sign with the Heat, because he believes it is the best opportunity for him to win a championship then so be it. You can hate that decision all you want, but that decision is fair game. There have been ring chasers for a long time. Have they always been key/big name players? No, but because this is Ray Allen and the fact that he is a key/known player he is hated for this more than say Eddy Curry. Were Allen and Garnett not ring chasing when they went to the Celtics? Didn't they get together with Pierce to win a ring? They might have been younger, but that doesn't change a thing. Drexler went to the Rockets in the latter part of his career for a title, do you hate Drexler for doing that as well? I'm not saying you have to like a damn thing Allen or any FA before or after him does when it comes to their decision, but at least respect the fact he has the right to go wherever he wants and is doing what he thinks is best for his career.

mattie
07-06-2012, 11:05 PM
OH NOES!!1 The Heat got one more three point specialist who can barely move. They will destroy everyone! James Jones and Ray Allen???? SAY IT ISN"T SO.

ilive4sports
07-06-2012, 11:11 PM
So players are damned if they go where the money is or damned if they go to a good team. Come on now. Ray should have stayed with the team that nearly traded him twice, benched him, and had problems with the starting PG? Seriously.... Not to mention the Celtics window may be closed. Can Garnett really play Center over the course of an 82 game season? How much is Doc Rivers really in it still? Will Rondo create more problems?

Its a pretty easy decision.

Steagles
07-06-2012, 11:17 PM
Were Allen and Garnett not ring chasing when they went to the Celtics?
They were traded there.



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Young
07-06-2012, 11:20 PM
And that is Larry's choice. Just because Larry, Magic and Jordan didn't do it doesn't mean every other player in the NBA has be like them and follow their stance. Ray Allen is a free agent. If he wants to sign with the Heat, because he believes it is the best opportunity for him to win a championship then so be it. You can hate that decision all you want, but that decision is fair game. There have been ring chasers for a long time. Have they always been key/big name players? No, but because this is Ray Allen and the fact that he is a key/known player he is hated for this more than say Eddy Curry. Were Allen and Garnett not ring chasing when they went to the Celtics? Didn't they get together with Pierce to win a ring? They might have been younger, but that doesn't change a thing. Drexler went to the Rockets in the latter part of his career for a title, do you hate Drexler for doing that as well? I'm not saying you have to like a damn thing Allen or any FA before or after him does when it comes to their decision, but at least respect the fact he has the right to go wherever he wants and is doing what he thinks is best for his career.

I never said he doesn't have the right to sign wherever. What irks me about this particular situation is that Ray Allen was just on a team that was so close to beating the Heat in a 7 game series and now he goes to the Heat. Also, the Timberwolves owner publicly stated that Kevin Garnett did NOT request a trade. Whether or not that is actually true I don't know. I don't know if Ray Allen requested one from Seattle.

You are right in that it was Larry's choice to not join Magic or whoever. However, I admire that competitiveness, you may or may not. I am not a serious athlete but I have played sports. I have never played in a league in any sport where I lost and wanted to go to the team that beat the team I was on. I wanted to beat that team, not join them. I have never bought in to the "if you can't beat em, join em" way of thinking.

No one cares about Eddy Curry and his ring chasing because Eddy Curry sucks. Ray Allen is actually a good player.

shags
07-06-2012, 11:21 PM
Ray Allen just played a key part on a team that took the eventual NBA Champions to 7 games in the Conference Finals. Now he jumps ship to the team that beat the team he was a part of? Maybe I am too old school but I just hate that. I understand and appreciate the desire to win a ring but you cannot tell me that winning a ring with the Heat would be nearly the same as winning one with the Celtics.

Did this stuff go on in the 80s and 90s? Ray Allen is no Larry Bird but as an example Larry would not have wanted to team up with Magic...Larry wanted to beat Magic. I guess that is the difference between players of yesterday and players of today.

Well, during the late 80s, early 90s, the Jordan-led Bulls and the Bad Boy Pistons HATED each other, much worse than anything that goes on in the AAU-ization of today's game. I think the Celtics and Heat were buddy buddy compared to those teams.

Dennis Rodman, John Salley, and James Edwards, key rotation players (Rodman was an all-star) for the Bad Boy Pistons played on the 1996 72 win Chicago Bulls team with Jordan and Pippen. So it has happened.

Blackhawk4
07-06-2012, 11:25 PM
They were traded there.



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Garnett - Unhappy with what the wolves were doing.
Allen - I really need to explain 2005-2007 for the Supersonics?

CJ Jones
07-06-2012, 11:25 PM
OH NOES!!1 The Heat got one more three point specialist who can barely move. They will destroy everyone! James Jones and Ray Allen???? SAY IT ISN"T SO.

All they need him to do is shoot 3's, and he shot a career high % last year. He's still better than a healthy Miller or James Jones.

They're going to mop the floor with the East.

BrownBearCoffee
07-06-2012, 11:30 PM
Well let's hope George learns how to get through a freaking screen this off season...

How disgusting is this?


Let's Do This Together
Ray Allen couldn't beat the Heat. So the free agent is going to join them, agreeing to sign with Miami, his agent said. Story » Reaction »Bad for Celtics » Players take to Twitter » ESPN Boston »

Kstat
07-06-2012, 11:37 PM
The Miami Heat may win 68 games next season. I don't see how anyone will stop a lineup of Chalmers, Allen, Wade, James and Bosh.

Not a chance. They cannot play with that kind of intensity with such a small lineup for 82 games.

Sookie
07-06-2012, 11:44 PM
So players are damned if they go where the money is or damned if they go to a good team. Come on now. Ray should have stayed with the team that nearly traded him twice, benched him, and had problems with the starting PG? Seriously.... Not to mention the Celtics window may be closed. Can Garnett really play Center over the course of an 82 game season? How much is Doc Rivers really in it still? Will Rondo create more problems?

Its a pretty easy decision.

Right.

Ray Allen had said he wanted to retire a Celtic. He clearly couldn't trust the Celtics to stay with him. (And if anyone knows anything about Boston sports..) So he took his future into his own hands.

King Tuts Tomb
07-06-2012, 11:46 PM
If the Pacers get Mayo and re-sign Hibbert I could see them finishing ahead of the Heat in the East. LeBron just played a million playoff minutes under an extreme amount of pressure and now he's going to play in the Olympics. I could see them coasting a bit, and as much as I hate to admit it I wouldn't be surprised if LeBron misses some time with injury.

pogi
07-06-2012, 11:46 PM
And that is Larry's choice. Just because Larry, Magic and Jordan didn't do it doesn't mean every other player in the NBA has be like them and follow their stance. Ray Allen is a free agent. If he wants to sign with the Heat, because he believes it is the best opportunity for him to win a championship then so be it. You can hate that decision all you want, but that decision is fair game. There have been ring chasers for a long time. Have they always been key/big name players? No, but because this is Ray Allen and the fact that he is a key/known player he is hated for this more than say Eddy Curry. Were Allen and Garnett not ring chasing when they went to the Celtics? Didn't they get together with Pierce to win a ring? They might have been younger, but that doesn't change a thing. Drexler went to the Rockets in the latter part of his career for a title, do you hate Drexler for doing that as well? I'm not saying you have to like a damn thing Allen or any FA before or after him does when it comes to their decision, but at least respect the fact he has the right to go wherever he wants and is doing what he thinks is best for his career.

I respect their right to go wherever they please, but I don't respect players who do this. Or, I should say....I lose respect for players who do this. Did I lose respect for "the Glide" when he went to Houston the very next year after winning a championship...a little. Did I lose some respect for Barkley and Pippen trying to start their version of superfriends? Yes. Ray Allen, KG, Lebron, Bosh, the Mailman, the Glove, half the roster the Mavs had in the last 10 years? Sorry to say...but, I did lose some respect for all these guys. I don't like when teams (IMO) try to buy a championship. I'm not against free agency, I understand going to a better situation or team. Just I hate when superstars join together. Cuz, I feel if this keeps up, we'll only be seeing the same teams in the finals....Lakers, Boston, Chicago, New York, maybe a couple others. But the other 25 or so teams will just be like those sad pathetic teams that go up against the Globetrotters.

TOP
07-06-2012, 11:50 PM
I hate the NBA.


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I'm starting to as well.

Wish I didn't love basketball and more importantly, love the Pacers.

I will always follow and love the Pacers but the league makes me sick to my stomach.

Should just cut the NBA down to 8 teams so I can stop watching.

LA(x2), NY(x2), Boston, Chicago, Miami and Dallas. That would be sweet yo!



Why do the Pacers gotta be like a drug to me? I'm addicted :(

ilive4sports
07-06-2012, 11:53 PM
They were traded there.



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Garnett initially rejected the trade to Boston because he felt he couldn't win a championship there. Then they got Ray Allen so he gave it the green light.

Pacersalltheway10
07-06-2012, 11:54 PM
Garnett - Unhappy with what the wolves were doing.
Allen - I really need to explain 2005-2007 for the Supersonics?

Just admit you were wrong. They had no idea they were going to go to the Celtics together.

naptownmenace
07-06-2012, 11:55 PM
Ray Allen just played a key part on a team that took the eventual NBA Champions to 7 games in the Conference Finals. Now he jumps ship to the team that beat the team he was a part of? Maybe I am too old school but I just hate that. I understand and appreciate the desire to win a ring but you cannot tell me that winning a ring with the Heat would be nearly the same as winning one with the Celtics.

Did this stuff go on in the 80s and 90s? Ray Allen is no Larry Bird but as an example Larry would not have wanted to team up with Magic...Larry wanted to beat Magic. I guess that is the difference between players of yesterday and players of today.

I remember a broken down but still effective Bill Walton teaming up with the 86 (IIRC) Celtics and winning a second ring. The Lakers had A few older guys join up with them to make a run at a title. Mychal Thompson maybe?

In the 90's Robert Parrish signed with MJ's Bulls and chased a another ring. James Edwards joined the Pistons championship teams. it seemed to happen less during the 90's but Free Agency was way different then.

In just the last decade you had Shaq joining the Lakers who then added veteran ring chasers like Ron Harper, Brian Shaw, Horace Grant, AC Green, John Salley, Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton, and Karl Malone.

I don't like it either but it's not a new phenomenon. Winners like to play with other players that know how to win.

DGPR
07-06-2012, 11:56 PM
Ray Allen also announced he plays all his video games on easy mode

Steagles
07-06-2012, 11:59 PM
Wish I didn't love basketball and more importantly, love the Pacers.

Why do the Pacers gotta be like a drug to me? I'm addicted :(
This.





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Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 12:00 AM
Ray Allen also announced he plays all his video games on easy mode

I bet he just gives the ball to LeBron. LeBron is so unstoppable in NBA2k it gets boring just like the real league.

ilive4sports
07-07-2012, 12:07 AM
Just admit you were wrong. They had no idea they were going to go to the Celtics together.
Not true.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2954127


Garnett effectively blocked the Celtics' first attempt at trading for him by making it clear, through agent Andy Miller, that he would opt out of the final year of his contract (worth $23 million) and leave the Celtics via free agency in the summer of 2008. Had the original trade gone through, Boston potentially would have been parting with blossoming Jefferson for a one-year Garnett rental.
But Garnett now is said to be amenable to the move, after the fiercely loyal 31-year-old learned how far along the Wolves had been in negotiations with Boston in June and with the Celtics responding to the breakdown of its initial pursuit by trading the fifth overall pick in the draft to Seattle for All-Star shooting guard Ray Allen (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3080).

SycamoreKen
07-07-2012, 12:10 AM
You have to figure out how to abuse his lack of foot speed on defense in order to get him to work hard. Marcus Camby would have made them stronger, in my opinion.

Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 12:19 AM
Not true.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2954127

I mean they didn't plan before hand and they we're both demanding a trade to the Celtics. They weren't ring chasing. I worded it poorly.

Blackhawk4
07-07-2012, 12:25 AM
Just admit you were wrong. They had no idea they were going to go to the Celtics together.
I'm not wrong at all. They were on teams that were not going anywhere, then when the idea of the three getting together could be done it happened. They wanted to win a title just like most players in the NBA.

Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 12:27 AM
Because most NBA players aren't in there to win a ring to begin with? You might as well hate players who want to win a ring regardless of their age.

Do you know what the perceived definition of "ring chasing" is? Based on your logic, you'd call the #10 man on the Bobcats ring chasing. Why the **** would I hate players who want to win a ring. Only these players coming off contracts who accept less money just to sign with a superteam are ring chasers otherwise known as taking the easy way out. The younger they are, the more annoying it gets. Let Allen try to get a ring in Miami, he won't last a whole season.

I hope I made that understandable because this heat wave is really PISSING me off and messing up my thoughts.

ilive4sports
07-07-2012, 12:30 AM
I mean they didn't plan before hand and they we're both demanding a trade to the Celtics. They weren't ring chasing. I worded it poorly.
Ummm both wanted to go to winners. Thats why Garnett initially rejected the trade to Boston. Because he didn't think they could win there. Garnett was also looking at PHX and the Lakers before going to Boston.

They were pretty much ring chasing. Every player is either ring chasing or paper chasing, thats how it should be.

Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 12:33 AM
I'm not wrong at all. They were on teams that were not going anywhere, then when the idea of the three getting together could be done it happened. They wanted to win a title just like most players in the NBA.

If Garnett orginally rejected the trade, that means the 3 of them didn't get together and tell their managements to make the trades.

Blackhawk4
07-07-2012, 12:34 AM
Do you know what the perceived definition of "ring chasing" is? Based on your logic, you'd call the #10 man on the Bobcats ring chasing. Why the **** would I hate players who want to win a ring. Only these players coming off contracts who accept less money just to sign with a superteam are ring chasers otherwise known as taking the easy way out. The younger they are, the more annoying it gets. Let Allen try to get a ring in Miami, he won't last a whole season.

I hope I made that understandable because this heat wave is really PISSING me off and messing up my thoughts.

That logic makes no sense when there are players who are on contract who want to be traded to a title contender because they are trying to get a ring.

Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 12:38 AM
That logic makes no sense when there are players who are on contract who want to be traded to a title contender because they are trying to get a ring.

okay then change it to most.

Blackhawk4
07-07-2012, 12:41 AM
okay then change it to most.

So you're going to discriminate against group X of players coming off contracts who accept less money to go to a title contender, when group Y of players coming off contracts etc. are doing the same thing?

ndcoltsnpacers
07-07-2012, 12:45 AM
I actually can't wait to see Ray Allen's mom in Heat gear. Can anyone with some photoshop skills make that happen ASAP?

Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 12:48 AM
So you're going to discriminate against group X of players coming off contracts who accept less money to go to a title contender, when group Y of players coming off contracts etc. are doing the same thing?

I meant most ring chasers are those types of players.

SycamoreKen
07-07-2012, 01:03 AM
After the heat Trade 2 third round picks and a bag of oranges for Camby everything will be complete!

d_c
07-07-2012, 01:37 AM
If Garnett orginally rejected the trade, that means the 3 of them didn't get together and tell their managements to make the trades.

KG originally rejected the trade to Boston (by threatening not to sign an extension) because it involved the Celts giving up the #5 pick and Al Jefferson. He thought that wouldn't leave the team enough ammo to win it all. Once it was agreed that Boston wouldn't be including the #5 pick, the Celts knew they could flip that for Ray Allen and then all of a sudden getting traded to Boston started looking pretty appealing for KG.

BTW, this entire idea of superstars joining forces first originated in 1999, when small market Orlando loaded up on an entire roster full of expiring deals so they could afford two give out 2 MAX contracts the following summer. The idea was that your chances of landing a superstar in free agency would be much, much higher if you could give that superstar the opportunity to play with another superstar.

Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 01:42 AM
KG originally rejected the trade to Boston (by threatening not to sign an extension) because it involved the Celts giving up the #5 pick and Al Jefferson. He thought that wouldn't leave the team enough ammo to win it all. Once it was agreed that Boston wouldn't be including the #5 pick, the Celts knew they could flip that for Ray Allen and then all of a sudden getting traded to Boston started looking pretty appealing for KG.

BTW, this entire idea of superstars joining forces first originated in 1999, when small market Orlando loaded up on an entire roster full of expiring deals so they could afford two give out 2 MAX contracts the following summer. The idea was that your chances of landing a superstar in free agency would be much, much higher if you could give that superstar the opportunity to play with another superstar.
But Allen, Garnett, and Pierce didn't get together before hand and plan to play together like the Heat did except through trade.

d_c
07-07-2012, 01:47 AM
But Allen, Garnett, and Pierce didn't get together before hand and plan to play together like the Heat did except through trade.

Does anyone care if Tyler Hansbrough, Tyler Zeller and Ed Davis are hatching an evil plan to play together?

At the end of the day, who's to stop anyone from coming up with that kind of plan? Players these days are connected in ways that previous generations of players weren't. They all know each other from AAU ball. Heck, they're already forming their own AAU teams when they're in high school. That never happened before.

Pacersalltheway10
07-07-2012, 01:54 AM
Does anyone care if Tyler Hansbrough, Tyler Zeller and Ed Davis are hatching an evil plan to play together?

At the end of the day, who's to stop anyone from coming up with that kind of plan? Players these days are connected in ways that previous generations of players weren't. They all know each other from AAU ball. Heck, they're already forming their own AAU teams when they're in high school. That never happened before. good points but that's not what was being discussed. What was being discussed was whether they planned to form that Celtics team before hand.

mattie
07-07-2012, 02:28 AM
KG originally rejected the trade to Boston (by threatening not to sign an extension) because it involved the Celts giving up the #5 pick and Al Jefferson. He thought that wouldn't leave the team enough ammo to win it all. Once it was agreed that Boston wouldn't be including the #5 pick, the Celts knew they could flip that for Ray Allen and then all of a sudden getting traded to Boston started looking pretty appealing for KG.

BTW, this entire idea of superstars joining forces first originated in 1999, when small market Orlando loaded up on an entire roster full of expiring deals so they could afford two give out 2 MAX contracts the following summer. The idea was that your chances of landing a superstar in free agency would be much, much higher if you could give that superstar the opportunity to play with another superstar.

Houston...

BringJackBack
07-07-2012, 07:43 AM
Ray didn't really have a lot of options here if he still wanted to be a starter. He'd be a fringe starter in Boston, and maybe benched again by Bradley or Terry. And there in Miami it looks like he's going to be a role player. Whoop-de-doo. The only thing I fear is Miami getting a real shooter at the 1 and a big rebounding and defensive center.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 08:34 AM
Something HAS to be done about this ****. Stern knows that fans will start hating the league if this doesn't stop.


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Clearly there is a mixed opinion on this. I'm with you though. I am more apt to follow NCAA basketball as the NBA becomes less competitive...akin to WWF. Recall how Wade sucked eggs against the Pacers and decided to start playing and blew us away. It's all becoming a farce, quite frankly.

Honestly,why don't they just renegotiate their contracts and bring in Dwight Howard to completely dominate.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 08:36 AM
But Allen, Garnett, and Pierce didn't get together before hand and plan to play together like the Heat did except through trade.

That's the key. Some will disagree with you. Others will agree. But the fact remains that since so many agree with you, the NBA has become less interesting. It might pickup some bandwagon fans I suppose...becoming even more like WWF.

shags
07-07-2012, 08:44 AM
Clearly there is a mixed opinion on this. I'm with you though. I am more apt to follow NCAA basketball as the NBA becomes less competitive...akin to WWF. Recall how Wade sucked eggs against the Pacers and decided to start playing and blew us away. It's all becoming a farce, quite frankly.

Honestly,why don't they just renegotiate their contracts and bring in Dwight Howard to completely dominate.

I understand. If you want to watch a sport where the big schools/large markets don't dominate the small schools/small markets, you should definitely watch NCAA Division 1 basketball.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 09:21 AM
I understand. If you want to watch a sport where the big schools/large markets don't dominate the small schools/small markets, you should definitely watch NCAA Division 1 basketball.

The games are still more in doubt. Also, 25 different teams have won the NCAA's in the same time period 15 NBA teams have won it all. Yes, there are more NCAA teams but that doesn't change the fact the talent is more distributed and the games are far, far more competitive game in and game out. No doubt the players are not as good, but if you want to watch a competitive game, the NCAA is the better product. If you want to watch teams pretend they are competing, you follow the NBA. Look, I love watching the best basketball players in the world but the product is suffering when there's no point watching because you know who's going to win.

Justin Tyme
07-07-2012, 09:26 AM
Screw this. I hate the NBA. I'm going to go root for the Hoosiers.


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You'd really have to hate the NBA to get that drastic and carried away. Brrr.

OlBlu
07-07-2012, 09:40 AM
You'd really have to hate the NBA to get that drastic and carried away. Brrr.

I agree with that...... the though of IU makes me a bit ill.........:cool:

Kstat
07-07-2012, 09:57 AM
The funny thing is if the Pacers had signed Ray Allen, not many people here would care a whole lot. He's old, can't move anymore and gets taken advantage of defensively.

But since he signed with miami...it's an affront to basketball?

vnzla81
07-07-2012, 10:06 AM
Ray is going to miss Rondo and Doc Rivers.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 10:13 AM
The funny thing is if the Pacers had signed Ray Allen, not many people here would care a whole lot. He's old, can't move anymore and gets taken advantage of defensively.

But since he signed with miami...it's an affront to basketball?

He's not dead yet and unlike Mike Miller he is a legitimate all-star. Normally, someone is draped on Ray Allen just to slow him down. They can't do that against the Heat and he will be left open to fill it up. It's going to be like shooting fish in a barrel for him. Allen is smart making this move because it will extend his career and probably net him a couple more rings.

Kstat
07-07-2012, 10:15 AM
....because Miami badly needed another spot-up shooter?

I'm sure Miami will be great for Ray Allen. I just don't think Allen will be great for Miami.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 10:20 AM
....because Miami badly needed another spot-up shooter?

I'm sure Miami will be great for Ray Allen. I just don't think Allen will be great for Miami.

As a Pacer fan, I hope you're right. But I'm pretty sure he helps them. He's definitely better than James Jones who is basically left alone to shoot from the perimeter. Leaving Ray Allen time to square up every time is kind of scary. He's not going to be too old to launch threes with great accuracy next year.

Sollozzo
07-07-2012, 10:36 AM
Interesting article about the Allen decision:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--heat-gave-ray-allen-reason-to-again-feel-wanted.html

Kstat
07-07-2012, 10:38 AM
As a Pacer fan, I hope you're right. But I'm pretty sure he helps them. He's definitely better than James Jones who is basically left alone to shoot from the perimeter. Leaving Ray Allen time to square up every time is kind of scary. He's not going to be too old to launch threes with great accuracy next year.
Mike Miller and Shane Battier were 3-point shooting gods for most of june. It would be almost impossible for Ray Allen to match what they did, let alone surpass it.

greengirl33
07-07-2012, 11:05 AM
I find it interesting some of you are more upset about this than I am. It's not that I'm happy to see him go - I'm not. I know if it wasn't for those threes there would have been a few more Ls than Ws. But quite honestly between the injuries and age, I don't know how well he would have fit into the future here (a little surprised we kept KG). I can't see him being depended on as much in Miami as he was in Boston for the wins and that should help at this stage in his career, one way or another.

As for going to Miami, I'm indifferent. I don't like the Heat but I don't think he's going to be as big a factor as some might think. If he keeps having knee issues it'll be harder for him to get those outside shots. Yes, they can save him until the big games but even a long-time professional like Ray will have a harder time warming up if not playing in real games consistantly.

PR07
07-07-2012, 11:09 AM
It's a good pickup by Miami, and Allen will see a number of clean looks playing off LeBron and Wade. Probably the best move for his career at this point.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 11:13 AM
Mike Miller and Shane Battier were 3-point shooting gods for most of june. It would be almost impossible for Ray Allen to match what they did, let alone surpass it.

They, especially Battier, looked good because they were left open. Nobody has ever left Ray Allen open. That's the difference. Like others have said, this is good for Ray Allen. Good for him and the Heat.

Kstat
07-07-2012, 11:18 AM
The games are still more in doubt. Also, 25 different teams have won the NCAA's in the same time period 15 NBA teams have won it all. Yes, there are more NCAA teams but that doesn't change the fact the talent is more distributed and the games are far, far more competitive game in and game out. No doubt the players are not as good, but if you want to watch a competitive game, the NCAA is the better product. If you want to watch teams pretend they are competing, you follow the NBA. Look, I love watching the best basketball players in the world but the product is suffering when there's no point watching because you know who's going to win.

...your argument for more parity in the NCAA is 25 champions out of the 350 Division I basketball schools vs. 15 of 30 NBA franchises?

Out of curiosity, did you "know" Dallas was going to win the championship last year?

rexnom
07-07-2012, 11:56 AM
Mike Miller and Shane Battier were 3-point shooting gods for most of june. It would be almost impossible for Ray Allen to match what they did, let alone surpass it.
Well, I don't think that he will surpass it but, given the looks they were given, I sure think he can match it. That's the hope, anyways. And why not? LeBron is going to get him the same looks, if not better looks, as Rondo.

King Tuts Tomb
07-07-2012, 12:04 PM
This outrage is especially funny because no one outside of the Heat or Celtics wanted Ray Allen. The Clippers could have easily chosen him over Crawford and given him a starting spot, and didn't. The Pacers could have courted him instead of OJ Mayo, and didn't.

Should the Heat just not sign free agents?

Kstat
07-07-2012, 12:06 PM
This outrage is especially funny because no one outside of the Heat or Celtics wanted Ray Allen. The Clippers could have easily chosen him over Crawford and given him a starting spot, and didn't. The Pacers could have courted him instead of OJ Mayo, and didn't.

Should the Heat just not sign free agents?

This.

Sollozzo
07-07-2012, 12:32 PM
This is a symbolic loss for Boston more than anything else. Terry is probably a better player than Ray right now, and Jeff Green is allegedly on the verge of re-signing. Hopefully he is healthy. Plus they will have Bradley back. As long as KG and Pierce maintain last year's production, the Celtics will be much deeper than last season, Ray or no Ray.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 12:34 PM
Ray is going to miss Rondo and Doc Rivers.

Apparently he and Rondo didn't get along.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 12:37 PM
I make a distinction between what is wrong and what I don't care to see. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with players wanting to team up. Personally, it bums me out when it creates a team that seems a cut above everyone else in talent because I like it when more good teams have a better shot at winning (especially considering that's about the ceiling of the franchise I root for).

But there's nothing wrong with it.

I think a lot of the hand wringing is being done by people who can't make the distinction between the two; what's right/wrong versus personal preferences.

15th parallel
07-07-2012, 12:38 PM
To be fair to Ray Allen, only the Heat and Celtics showed a strong interest in him. He chose what he thought was the best fit for him given his age (he's still probably wants to win another ring regardless if he's joining a rival team). With the way the Heat was built, they'll prefer to have vets instead of investing on younger guys with their salary cap very limited and with their own big 3 still pretty young.

I'm just disappointed that rather than staying with the Celtics with a better offer he chose to get a fairly lower salary to join the Heat. So yeah you can say he's getting on the bandwagon while it's running hot. Well there were rumors that he and Rondo are having a rift of some sorts, so who knows what's the other factors that convinced him to switch to a rival team.

Well that's the end with the Boston's big 3 era. It's Rondo and the big 2 now. Well they're still pretty strong without Ray Allen so they still have a pretty good chance in the East. With Miami, they got a good bargain with Ray Allen but we'll still have to see how he'll fit with the current Heat squad.

hoosierguy
07-07-2012, 01:24 PM
I agree with that...... the though of IU makes me a bit ill.........:cool:

Please keep thinking about IU then.

Preaseason #1 team in the country and they aren't going anywhere. Get used to it.

vnzla81
07-07-2012, 01:33 PM
Apparently he and Rondo didn't get along.

I know, I was just talking about Ray not knowing or not realizing how many more years Rondo extended his career for, he is going to be an addition to Miami for sure but without Rondo passing ability and Doc's play calling I don't expect him to do much.

OlBlu
07-07-2012, 01:46 PM
Please keep thinking about IU then.

Preaseason #1 team in the country and they aren't going anywhere. Get used to it.

What I am used to is multiple NCAA sanctions and general corruption in the program. I will be rooting for every opponent they face in every game and I will hoop and holler when they lose. Are any of their current players attending any classes?? :cool:

OlBlu
07-07-2012, 01:48 PM
I know, I was just talking about Ray not knowing or not realizing how many more years Rondo extended his career for, he is going to be an addition to Miami for sure but without Rondo passing ability and Doc's play calling I don't expect him to do much.

He won't have to work as hard to get shot with Miami. I think he will be very good and will extend his career even farther. I also think Rashard Lewis will be a good addition for Miami.......:cool:

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 02:56 PM
...your argument for more parity in the NCAA is 25 champions out of the 350 Division I basketball schools vs. 15 of 30 NBA franchises?

Out of curiosity, did you "know" Dallas was going to win the championship last year?

No. The point is that predicting the NBA champion and the outcome of important games is easier. There are several reasons for that including the fact they play each other far more frequently. Experience against the opposition is a critical factor when you combine that with a significant talent difference and professional scouting and preparation...the outcome is all but decided. So, with the NBA game, talent variances have a MUCH greater impact on the competitiveness of the league and the unpredictability of important games.

As for Dallas, no, I didn't "know" they would win. They are one of the rare exceptions in the NBA. However, they did have the 2nd best record in the West so it really shouldn't have been a shock. The only reason they didn't get attention is because Dirk isn't known for post season success and many of their supposed has-been players were actually all-stars with enough left in the tank. This is why Ray Allen to Miami hurts the league's competitiveness even further.

BrownBearCoffee
07-07-2012, 02:57 PM
What I am used to is multiple NCAA sanctions and general corruption in the program. I will be rooting for every opponent they face in every game and I will hoop and holler when they lose. Are any of their current players attending any classes?? :cool:

Probably not. It's summer.

Kstat
07-07-2012, 03:12 PM
As for Dallas, no, I didn't "know" they would win. They are one of the rare exceptions in the NBA. However, they did have the 2nd best record in the West so it really shouldn't have been a shock.

third.

Unless you plan to rotate lebron james around the NBA from team to team each year, this is a very silly complaint anyhow. It only takes 2-3 special players to make a great team .Take LeBron James off of Miami and they could sign four ray allens and it wouldn't mean ****.

You could re-draft the entire league, and whatever team lebron james was drafted by would be a championship contender. There is no great equalizer for LeBron James, or Tim Duncan, or Michael Jordan, or Magic Johnson, so can we all please to sticking our heads in the sand because we don't want to face reality?

If you demand parity, stop following basketball altogether. Any sport where one or two individuals can make an entire team dominant will NEVER have real parity for long.

People need to stop lying to themselves and blaming the NBA for being about basketball.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 04:15 PM
LeBron by himself is one thing. LeBron AND DWade AND Bosh constructing an all-star team...and Ray Allen taking chump change to get a ring makes the league look silly. Why not have Dwight go down there too? What a joke.

Kstat
07-07-2012, 04:17 PM
...and in the end, it was pretty much LeBron creating shots for everyone else...

LeBron will always be LeBron. There is only one of him. Quality role players are generally very easy to acquire. The only hard part is picking out the right support system.

Ray Allen is a breath away from retirement. He might never start another NBA game. Who cares what he's getting paid?

OlBlu
07-07-2012, 04:28 PM
third.

Unless you plan to rotate lebron james around the NBA from team to team each year, this is a very silly complaint anyhow. It only takes 2-3 special players to make a great team .Take LeBron James off of Miami and they could sign four ray allens and it wouldn't mean ****.

You could re-draft the entire league, and whatever team lebron james was drafted by would be a championship contender. There is no great equalizer for LeBron James, or Tim Duncan, or Michael Jordan, or Magic Johnson, so can we all please to sticking our heads in the sand because we don't want to face reality?

If you demand parity, stop following basketball altogether. Any sport where one or two individuals can make an entire team dominant will NEVER have real parity for long.

People need to stop lying to themselves and blaming the NBA for being about basketball.

I am in the Jacksonville, Florida area and I just heard two of the talking heads here say that there has never been parity in the NBA and there was never going to be. The rich will always be rich and the poor will always be poor.....:cool:

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 05:50 PM
I am in the Jacksonville, Florida area and I just heard two of the talking heads here say that there has never been parity in the NBA and there was never going to be. The rich will always be rich and the poor will always be poor.....:cool:

Totally agree. It's when the differences get ridiculous where the game becomes less interesting. Maybe some of the bandwagon fans like watching fake games...

ilive4sports
07-07-2012, 07:03 PM
Sure the rich will always be the rich, but there is a way for teams to become the "rich" Miami is a very young franchise, they didn't start out as the rich. They became the rich now.

ilive4sports
07-07-2012, 07:05 PM
I know, I was just talking about Ray not knowing or not realizing how many more years Rondo extended his career for, he is going to be an addition to Miami for sure but without Rondo passing ability and Doc's play calling I don't expect him to do much.
Miami has this guy named LeBron James. He is one of the best creators in the history of the game. Allen wont miss Rondo at all. Miami can rest Allen as much as possible too with their roster. Miami is a much better situation for him.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 07:15 PM
Sure the rich will always be the rich, but there is a way for teams to become the "rich" Miami is a very young franchise, they didn't start out as the rich. They became the rich now.

Moving Indy to South Beach might help. Eagle Creek simply isn't getting it done.

Hoop
07-07-2012, 09:41 PM
My Respect Meter just hit 0 for Jesus Shuttlesworth. :(

King Tuts Tomb
07-07-2012, 10:55 PM
No. The point is that predicting the NBA champion and the outcome of important games is easier.

If the NCAA tournament had seven game series then Kentucky, Kansas, Duke or North Carolina would win every year. If the NBA had a single elimination, neutral site tournament then you'd have a lot of different champions.

The more games played, the less of a factor luck plays in the outcome. This is a big reason why I prefer professional to college basketball. I want to see the best team win, not the luckiest.

BlueNGold
07-08-2012, 12:12 AM
[QUOTE=King Tuts Tomb;1475018]If the NCAA tournament had seven game series then Kentucky, Kansas, Duke or North Carolina would win every year. If the NBA had a single elimination, neutral game tournament then you'd have a lot of different champions.

Well, even if that's true that doesn't change the fact the NBA champion is more predictable. In fact, you've given a reason for it.

In any event, I am sure a few IU fans here beg to differ that only 4 teams in the NCAA could win a 7 game series...especially fans of the 1976 team. Florida, Connecticut, Michigan State and UCLA probably differ as well.

Then every year you have interesting little teams like Butler who legitimately threaten and come one basket from winning it all. Maybe they're not going to win a 7 game series, but they don't have to do that in the NCAA to make things interesting. Goodness, didn't VCU make the final four recently? That's about like the Toronto Raptors going the the finals.

Honestly, I think the 7 game format demands that the NBA have more parity lest it's too predictable....

rexnom
07-08-2012, 12:15 AM
Would any of you had taken Ray Allen over OJ Mayo or even Courtney Lee? Don't let the name confuse you. He's not Ray Allen of old but LeBron will keep him in the league another five years. He can get him the ball in the corner and help cover for him on defense. Pretty great to play with him.

Peck
07-08-2012, 12:21 AM
If the NCAA tournament had seven game series then Kentucky, Kansas, Duke or North Carolina would win every year. If the NBA had a single elimination, neutral site tournament then you'd have a lot of different champions.

The more games played, the less of a factor luck plays in the outcome. This is a big reason why I prefer professional to college basketball. I want to see the best team win, not the luckiest.

Indeed.

But to counter that thought the best team should not be constructed due to the nearness of beaches, warm water & movie studios.

I knew the big problem when the big three got together was not going to just be the big three but all of the mid level and older stars who are chasing that ring would sign up on the cheap and keep this thing going for years.

pacer4ever
07-08-2012, 12:22 AM
And for all the people saying he should of stayed it isnt like we are talking about Reggie Miller or Larry Bird who truly was a Pacer and Celtic.


Allen has been traded many times and was almost traded last year and Avery Bradley was taking his spot.


and in reality Jason Terry is a better player at this point it was a win for all parties IMO.



Indeed.

But to counter that thought the best team should not be constructed due to the nearness of beaches, warm water & movie studios.

I knew the big problem when the big three got together was not going to just be the big three but all of the mid level and older stars who are chasing that ring would sign up on the cheap and keep this thing going for years.

No in college ball it isnt any different the best players go to places with the best coaches and who put the most money into the program.


If you dont think having coach K or a Coach Cal at UK and having a great athletic program with a great place to play gets better players than the Cleveland States of the world you are delusional

King Tuts Tomb
07-08-2012, 12:43 AM
Well, even if that's true that doesn't change the fact the NBA champion is more predictable. In fact, you've given a reason for it.

It's definitely more predictable. Personally, I like it better because of that. I understand that some people don't though. I saw an interview with Bill James and he said the predictability of NBA basketball made it too boring for him to watch.



In any event, I am sure a few IU fans here beg to differ that only 4 teams in the NCAA could win a 7 game series...especially fans of the 1976 team. Florida, Connecticut, Michigan State and UCLA probably differ as well.

Those teams too. What I meant is that from the 300 plus college teams, the 15 or so powerhouse schools would win every championship if it was seven games.


Then every year you have interesting little teams like Butler who legitimately threaten and come one basket from winning it all. Maybe they're not going to win a 7 game series, but they don't have to do that in the NCAA to make things interesting. Goodness, didn't VCU make the final four recently? That's about like the Toronto Raptors going the the finals.

Honestly, I think the 7 game format demands that the NBA have more parity lest it's too predictable....

I actually prefer the seven game series because the better team almost always wins. I'm more interested in watching great basketball than I am in upsets. I don't really care if a team is an underdog, I just want to watch basketball played at a high level. That's part of the reason I hated the Butler run. That UConn-Butler final was such ugly basketball, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I can't think of a poorly played NBA finals in my lifetime.

Peck
07-08-2012, 02:24 AM
And for all the people saying he should of stayed it isnt like we are talking about Reggie Miller or Larry Bird who truly was a Pacer and Celtic.


Allen has been traded many times and was almost traded last year and Avery Bradley was taking his spot.


and in reality Jason Terry is a better player at this point it was a win for all parties IMO.




No in college ball it isnt any different the best players go to places with the best coaches and who put the most money into the program.


If you dont think having coach K or a Coach Cal at UK and having a great athletic program with a great place to play gets better players than the Cleveland States of the world you are delusional

Don't mistake my post as an elation for college basketball. I have nothing but disdain for big time college basketball & find it far more offensive than the NBA. At least the NBA is honest about their corruption.

No my point is that to many times super teams are put together and they are put together for reasons beyond basketball & even fandom.

Shaq left the Magic high and dry not because they wouldn't pay or they couldn't compete. He left to be close to Hollywood and his rising movie & music career at the time.

But no doubt college basketball is far more corrupt.

BlueNGold
07-08-2012, 09:14 AM
I don't really care if a team is an underdog, I just want to watch basketball played at a high level. That's part of the reason I hated the Butler run. That UConn-Butler final was such ugly basketball, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I can't think of a poorly played NBA finals in my lifetime.

Agreed. However, the prior year against Duke, Butler played a great game and I do believe they were legit. You look at their team and they could compete with most any team in any year.

Hicks
07-08-2012, 10:24 AM
For my part, I like it when the superstars are dispersed because you can still build a very good team around any one of them, and then you have a larger field of good, interesting teams and matchups to watch and see how it all shakes out in the playoffs. I'm more interested in a team led by Wade versus a team led by James than I am a team led by both together against someone without one guy as good as either of the two of them.

I'd be curious to see two teams out west where one is built around Gasol and Bynum, but the rival has Nash and Kobe. That kind of thing could be fascinating, too.

PaceBalls
07-10-2012, 11:38 PM
Don't mistake my post as an elation for college basketball. I have nothing but disdain for big time college basketball & find it far more offensive than the NBA. At least the NBA is honest about their corruption.

No my point is that to many times super teams are put together and they are put together for reasons beyond basketball & even fandom.

Shaq left the Magic high and dry not because they wouldn't pay or they couldn't compete. He left to be close to Hollywood and his rising movie & music career at the time.

But no doubt college basketball is far more corrupt.

Bravo, it is so rare to find people that see College basketball that way. I completely agree with you here.

Pace Maker
07-11-2012, 12:27 AM
People are acting this is prime Ray Allen going to the Heat...

its not. Its a a great shooter playing his last few years with a team he can succeed with

Sollozzo
07-11-2012, 12:35 AM
People are acting this is prime Ray Allen going to the Heat...

its not. Its a a great shooter playing his last few years with a team he can succeed with

Yeah, Boston will be just fine without him. Jason Terry is better than Ray Allen at this point, and is also a couple of years younger. Plus Jeff Green and Avery Bradley should be healthy when the season starts. Boston had neither of those guys for the playoffs. I think they would have beat Miami with those guys. As long as KG and Pierce play like last season with Rondo's continuing improvement, then Boston should be pretty stacked.

It's more the symbolic loss than anything. This was the end of the Big-3 group that lived up to the hype and had a great run together. And the fact that Allen went to the Heat makes it a billion times worse.

Hoop
07-11-2012, 12:42 AM
It's definitely more predictable. Personally, I like it better because of that. I understand that some people don't though. I saw an interview with Bill James and he said the predictability of NBA basketball made it too boring for him to watch.



Those teams too. What I meant is that from the 300 plus college teams, the 15 or so powerhouse schools would win every championship if it was seven games.



I actually prefer the seven game series because the better team almost always wins. I'm more interested in watching great basketball than I am in upsets. I don't really care if a team is an underdog, I just want to watch basketball played at a high level. That's part of the reason I hated the Butler run. That UConn-Butler final was such ugly basketball, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I can't think of a poorly played NBA finals in my lifetime.
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