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McKeyFan
07-06-2012, 12:49 PM
OJ Mayo? Not a difference maker. Courtney Lee does not solve our problems.

Nash and DWill are off the table. Point guards that could open up the offense—even with their defensive liabilities—are not being considered such as Calderon, Lowry, Dragic, and Brooks. True creators like Brandon Roy and Jamaal Crawford are no longer available.

We will proceed into next season with the same big problem as last year: an offense that's pretty decent like a large truck engine but with no ignition to start it.

The only player in the vicinity of Pacerland that could provide this necessary component to our offense is Lance. With all his problems, uncertainty, and controversy, it's the only light I can see at the end of the tunnel. Here's to Lance having a breakout season next year.

Speed
07-06-2012, 12:50 PM
I really hope thats not the only hope. I hope Lance gets better, but thats a tall tall order.

Rogco
07-06-2012, 01:00 PM
Considering two years ago we pulled off the DC trade late and last year we signed west late, I'm still hopeful good things will happen considering no one can sign for five days still.

yoadknux
07-06-2012, 01:01 PM
Mayo has better odds of being a difference maker than Lance..

Tom White
07-06-2012, 01:21 PM
OJ Mayo? Not a difference maker. Courtney Lee does not solve our problems.

Nash and DWill are off the table. Point guards that could open up the offense—even with their defensive liabilities—are not being considered such as Calderon, Lowry, Dragic, and Brooks. True creators like Brandon Roy and Jamaal Crawford are no longer available.

We will proceed into next season with the same big problem as last year: an offense that's pretty decent like a large truck engine but with no ignition to start it.

The only player in the vicinity of Pacerland that could provide this necessary component to our offense is Lance. With all his problems, uncertainty, and controversy, it's the only light I can see at the end of the tunnel. Here's to Lance having a breakout season next year.

Let's take a look at the list of players you are lamenting not being Pacers.

Nash & DWill - Neither of them were EVER going to be here. Nothing our FO could do about that.
Calderon - Just not that good.
Lowry - Overrated, I think. Was traded in a deal I think no one saw coming.
Dragic - Way overpaid for a one-year-wonder.
Brooks - Again, I look at him as being overrated by some.
Brandon Roy - Huge health risk that I think some team will end up regretting.
Crawford - I'm trying to not laugh at the idea of that chucker. Pardon me, CHUCKER should be in caps for emphasis.

Where are the big loses that were real possibilities for the Pacers? Not in that list.

I also would not put all my eggs in the Lance in going to breakout basket.

Steagles
07-06-2012, 01:27 PM
I think, and have been saying I think that Lance will have a breakout year. He has been working hard for two years and he would have been a lottery pick in the lockout draft if he stayed another year at Cincy. I think he is ready.

Tom White
07-06-2012, 01:33 PM
I think, and have been saying I think that Lance will have a breakout year. He has been working hard for two years and he would have been a lottery pick in the lockout draft if he stayed another year at Cincy. I think he is ready.

But wait, I thought he was Born Ready?

Reginald
07-06-2012, 01:39 PM
I think, and have been saying I think that Lance will have a breakout year. He has been working hard for two years and he would have been a lottery pick in the lockout draft if he stayed another year at Cincy. I think he is ready.

I'm closer to writing Lance off as Bender 2.0 than I am declaring he'll have a breakout season. There's only so much mileage you can get out of summer league and high school highlight reels.

Speed
07-06-2012, 01:42 PM
Dudes 21, inspite of today's Star headline, its not make or break, but it'd be nice to see some substantial progress.

J7F
07-06-2012, 01:53 PM
What about hoping for a breakout from PG24? Seems far more likely to me...

I think you have potential for Orlando to come out firing too... He could possibly outplay Lance for minutes...

ksuttonjr76
07-06-2012, 01:53 PM
Personally, I just want to see the dude get some consistent minutes, so I can make a FAIR evaluation of him! I've been mostly impressed with him when he has played some minutes. The few mistakes that he makes, I normally blame it on the lack of meaningful playing time.

imbtyler
07-06-2012, 01:54 PM
I think a proper Summer League and offseason will give the kid what he needs to be NBA ready. Unless, of course, the Lance project ends prematurely, I think he'll be ready this season to get plenty of minutes. I'm more concerned with where DJ is going to go if we pick up pieces that render him irrelevant, and what we'll get in return.

vnzla81
07-06-2012, 02:16 PM
OJ Mayo? Not a difference maker. Courtney Lee does not solve our problems.

Nash and DWill are off the table. Point guards that could open up the offense—even with their defensive liabilities—are not being considered such as Calderon, Lowry, Dragic, and Brooks. True creators like Brandon Roy and Jamaal Crawford are no longer available.

We will proceed into next season with the same big problem as last year: an offense that's pretty decent like a large truck engine but with no ignition to start it.

The only player in the vicinity of Pacerland that could provide this necessary component to our offense is Lance. With all his problems, uncertainty, and controversy, it's the only light I can see at the end of the tunnel. Here's to Lance having a breakout season next year.

Thanks for bringing hope to us for next season ....... :suicide:

Unclebuck
07-06-2012, 02:20 PM
I think Paul George is a surer thing

graphic-er
07-06-2012, 02:22 PM
Lets not forget about Jeff Pendergraft. I both Lance and He will be ready to step into the back up role if the Pacers don't really make any moves.

cinotimz
07-06-2012, 02:26 PM
If the Pacers happen to acquire Mayo, I have a feeling Lance's future becomes even a bigger question mark than it already is...

Sparhawk
07-06-2012, 02:54 PM
If the Pacers happen to acquire Mayo, I have a feeling Lance's future becomes even a bigger question mark than it already is...

Which completely sucks. I really think Lance is going to have a breakout season, but with Mayo seemingly a Pacer now, I'm not sure what Lance's future with the team is. Maybe Lance and DC will be traded together as a package.

McKeyFan
07-06-2012, 03:09 PM
I think Paul George is a surer thing

Yes, PG is a surer thing to become a good player–like a Granger type. Solid starter, All-Star once or twice.

Our problem is that we need a true difference maker, something it seems nearly impossible for us to acquire. I don't see PG having a chance to be THAT good. Lance, with all his problems, has a chance. Not a Dumb and Dumber chance, but a decent shot, say 10 or 20 percent. I can see why Bird holds on to hope with Lance, because we may not have any other real options for acquiring a really great player.

That's why I would have supported getting BRoy. There's a chance he gets over the injury. 10 percent? 30 percent? Because of our position we are going to have take some swings for the fences. I haven't seen one of those yet, have you?

IUfan4life
07-06-2012, 03:16 PM
This thread is dumb. Our franchise's future is dependent upon a second round draft pick? Get out of here with that bs. Chalk it up to another overreaction on Pacersdigest.

90'sNBARocked
07-06-2012, 03:24 PM
I think, as one of his biggest suporters, that Lance, if given the opportunity to play consistent minutes next season, will start to put it all together and if given the freedom to create will be something the Pacers have lacked since , Tinsley

xBulletproof
07-06-2012, 03:33 PM
Mayo and George are and with 99% certainty will be more of a game changer than Lance.

I can't wait until this strange obsession is over.

MvPlumlee
07-06-2012, 03:39 PM
If the Pacers only add Mayo in FA, I won't be disappointed.
Mayo is definitely better than Barbosa, on offense and defense. Plumlee will hopefully be better than Lou and the rest of our core will only develop more and more chemistry if they all stay together.
Paul George still has much room to improve.

I have my doubts about Lance to be honest. I think the basketball IQ to play together with others is lacking.

xBulletproof
07-06-2012, 04:05 PM
If the Pacers only add Mayo in FA, I won't be disappointed.
Mayo is definitely better than Barbosa, on offense and defense. Plumlee will hopefully be better than Lou and the rest of our core will only develop more and more chemistry if they all stay together.
Paul George still has much room to improve.

I have my doubts about Lance to be honest. I think the basketball IQ to play together with others is lacking.

Since you're new here, I'll inform you of what your response will be. That Lance is such an advanced passer that his super secret moves that he never uses in practice (apparently) is so shocking that the players around him can't catch the ball. Which is why he gets turnovers.

I wish I was joking, but the argument has been made.

Hicks
07-06-2012, 04:10 PM
Since you're new here, I'll inform you of what your response will be. That Lance is such an advanced passer that his super secret moves that he never uses in practice (apparently) is so shocking that the players around him can't catch the ball. Which is why he gets turnovers.

I wish I was joking, but the argument has been made.

A very unbias, not at all misleading, way of putting it.

Dr. Hibbert
07-06-2012, 04:13 PM
Am I the only one who is not too worried about the 1-3 spots? Is the PG situation ideal? Probably not. But you could still win in the playoffs with Hill/Collison/George/Granger/FA (assuming they don't re-sign Barbosa) at those spots.

I'm way more concerned with depth at the 4 and 5 spots, (obviously) especially if they don't bring Hibbert back. Forcing Lou to play the 5 absolutely killed the Pacers last year. They need a legit 5 behind Hibbert, because Hibbert can only play 25-30 mins per game effectively. And they need to have a "crap or get off the pot" decision with Hansbrough, stop rewarding him just for being Hansbrough.

xBulletproof
07-06-2012, 04:15 PM
A very unbias, not at all misleading, way of putting it.

It's not misleading. It's exactly what people said. It had sarcastic spin on it, but it's not misleading. That's what the logic was.

Sparhawk
07-06-2012, 04:23 PM
It's not misleading. It's exactly what people said. It had sarcastic spin on it, but it's not misleading. That's what the logic was.

Maybe for some, but not me. Lance may or may not pan out, but I'd rather give a guy of his talents a try...and he costs less than $1M. Mayo on the other hand is going to cost a lot, and probably move PG to the bench. PG should be the starter.

The only scenario that makes sense is that the Pacers get Mayo in order to move PG to the SF spot. So Granger could be moved. Who knows.

What I do know is that Lance has talent, and it's better to give the guy a shot then not to and watch him do well somewhere else....for cheap.

McKeyFan
07-06-2012, 04:27 PM
This thread is dumb. Our franchise's future is dependent upon a second round draft pick? Get out of here with that bs. Chalk it up to another overreaction on Pacersdigest.

Speaking of overreactions . . .

xBulletproof
07-06-2012, 04:29 PM
Maybe for some, but not me. Lance may or may not pan out, but I'd rather give a guy of his talents a try...and he costs less than $1M. Mayo on the other hand is going to cost a lot, and probably move PG to the bench. PG should be the starter.

To me, if Lance was that talented, he would have been taken in the lottery, not the 2nd round. People can use whatever excuses they want, but teams take guys from Europe that won't even be on their team for years if they're talented enough. Talent trumps anything in the NBA, even not being around for years. Talent trumps ANYTHING.

Secondly, Mayo making Paul George fight for his spot might be a good thing. Make Paul fight for something. See if he's got that instinct in him to even put up a fight. I haven't seen enough fight far too often from him and it bothers me.

3rdStrike
07-06-2012, 05:10 PM
To me, if Lance was that talented, he would have been taken in the lottery, not the 2nd round. People can use whatever excuses they want, but teams take guys from Europe that won't even be on their team for years if they're talented enough. Talent trumps anything in the NBA, even not being around for years. Talent trumps ANYTHING.


That's so utterly ridiculous that instead of a full response I'll just say this: Monta Ellis.

naptownmenace
07-06-2012, 05:21 PM
This thread is dumb. Our franchise's future is dependent upon a second round draft pick? Get out of here with that bs. Chalk it up to another overreaction on Pacersdigest.

That's the first thing I thought after I read the OP too.

I can name only 5 2nd-round players that have played in an All-Star game that was drafted during the past 10 years.

Carlos Boozer
Michael Redd
Gilbert Arenas
Mehmet Okur
Mo Williams

Others that are just a step below that level but clearly above Lance's level are:

Monta Ellis
Paul Milsap
Luis Scola
Mark Gasol
Marcin Gortat
Trevor Ariza
Dejuan Blair

Can you name the last 2nd round player to even start more than half a season for the Indiana Pacers? Me either. I know that Antonio Davis started and played well when Smits had a procedure done on his foot way back in 1998 but that wasn't more than 15-20 game, IIRC.

Second Round players usually flame-out within 3 years and are out of the NBA within 4. It's way more likely that Lance fails than it is that he'll suddenly become an All-Star or even starter quality player.

McKeyFan
07-06-2012, 05:28 PM
It's way more likely that Lance fails than it is that he'll suddenly become an All-Star or even starter quality player.

I'm not disagreeing with you. It only highlights how difficult it is for our franchise to get to the next level. Apart from the FO making a big (and necessarily risky) move, we have a second rounder and his small chance of breaking out to ponder. Do you think OJ Mayo will be the key to igniting our offense?

By the way, a Redd or Arenas or Ellis type player would be pretty handy for us right now.

Edit: You artfully chose not to list a second round non-difference maker named Ginobli.

joew8302
07-06-2012, 05:52 PM
To me, if Lance was that talented, he would have been taken in the lottery, not the 2nd round. People can use whatever excuses they want, but teams take guys from Europe that won't even be on their team for years if they're talented enough. Talent trumps anything in the NBA, even not being around for years. Talent trumps ANYTHING.

Secondly, Mayo making Paul George fight for his spot might be a good thing. Make Paul fight for something. See if he's got that instinct in him to even put up a fight. I haven't seen enough fight far too often from him and it bothers me.


Thank you. This makes the most sense. Don't get me wrong, I love Paul, but there were times during this season he was absolutely invisible on the court (as the case is with most 20yr olds). If Lance was that good, or had that much ability there is no good reason he would not have got some decent minutes for stretches at the 2 this season. The fact he didn't is telling about where he is right now.

xBulletproof
07-06-2012, 06:20 PM
That's so utterly ridiculous that instead of a full response I'll just say this: Monta Ellis.

Your response has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Unless of course people are on here claiming Monta went in the 2nd round because of character issues only, and that he had the talent to be a star. Didn't see anyone say that on PD, nor when Monta was drafted.

No correlation what so ever.

IUfan4life
07-06-2012, 06:23 PM
Speaking of overreactions . . .

except, you know, this conversation has happened a hundred times already.

QuickRelease
07-06-2012, 06:26 PM
but with Mayo seemingly a Pacer nowHave we been labelled the front runners for Mayo? I haven't even seen anything that says we've spoken with his camp yet, but I absolutely could have missed that somewhere.

CJ Jones
07-06-2012, 07:40 PM
To me, if Lance was that talented, he would have been taken in the lottery, not the 2nd round. People can use whatever excuses they want, but teams take guys from Europe that won't even be on their team for years if they're talented enough. Talent trumps anything in the NBA, even not being around for years. Talent trumps ANYTHING.


What makes you think he wouldn't have been picked in the lottery if he stayed a couple more years?

What makes you think you know more than the people here getting payed to judge talent (Bird, Shaw, etc.)?

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/haters%20gonna%20hate/grand/875784564.gif

pacer4ever
07-06-2012, 08:05 PM
To me, if Lance was that talented, he would have been taken in the lottery, not the 2nd round. People can use whatever excuses they want, but teams take guys from Europe that won't even be on their team for years if they're talented enough. Talent trumps anything in the NBA, even not being around for years. Talent trumps ANYTHING.

Secondly, Mayo making Paul George fight for his spot might be a good thing. Make Paul fight for something. See if he's got that instinct in him to even put up a fight. I haven't seen enough fight far too often from him and it bothers me.

Lance Stephenson wasn't on many teams draft boards many teams had 0 interest in him all due to character(cant say I blame them looking back at how immature he was)


I agree we have to rely on our own improving an unrealistic amount to be come contenders seems how we are about to be out of cap room without a player that can be a true difference maker to make us contenders.


but relying on Lance at this point to be that guy is just silly hoping he improves and becomes a rotation player would be a nice start and not out of the question. He needs to take it one step at a time.

BlueNGold
07-06-2012, 08:39 PM
Sometimes I think we assume Lance isn't going improve much. Maybe that's just me making that assumption. I'm not sure it's valid because anyone who watched him this year saw some improvement. Why not? We all heard Mark Boyle claim he's one of the best or most talented two players on the team.

joew8302
07-06-2012, 09:02 PM
Sometimes I think we assume Lance isn't going improve much. Maybe that's just me making that assumption. I'm not sure it's valid because anyone who watched him this year saw some improvement. Why not? We all heard Mark Boyle claim he's one of the best or most talented two players on the team.

Yeah, we "hear" all of these great things from Bird, Boyle and whoever else, but he seemingly fulfills an area of need and still can't get minutes. What are we to make of this?

CJ Jones
07-06-2012, 09:06 PM
Lance Stephenson wasn't on many teams draft boards many teams had 0 interest in him all due to character(cant say I blame them looking back at how immature he was)

I agree we have to rely on our own improving an unrealistic amount to be come contenders seems how we are about to be out of cap room without a player that can be a true difference maker to make us contenders.


but relying on Lance at this point to be that guy is just silly hoping he improves and becomes a rotation player would be a nice start and not out of the question. He needs to take it one step at a time.

It's more sad then silly.

Hopefully, if we keep the roster the same they look to deal because no one wants to rely on Lance.

xBulletproof
07-06-2012, 09:28 PM
What makes you think you know more than the people here getting payed to judge talent (Bird, Shaw, etc.)?

They had to talk Lance up to justify publicly keeping him on the roster after the girlfriend down the stairs incident. There are a ton of reasons they would throw those things out there.

Also, this does mean I'm agreeing with most NBA GM's who would have passed on him. There's always that.


Lance Stephenson wasn't on many teams draft boards many teams had 0 interest in him all due to character(cant say I blame them looking back at how immature he was)

Yet this is the league that drafted Jason Williams out of Florida in the top 10 after getting kicked out of school for drugs (after getting caught several times). Then when asked about what he liked about college, he replied ... "I liked getting kicked out". THAT guy went 7th. You going to tell me Lance is less mature than that guy? How about Demarcus Cousins in the top 5?

Guys that are less immature, but with more talent get drafted in the top 10, because they're talented. Lance would have been no different if teams thought he was worthy of that talent wise.

pacer4ever
07-06-2012, 09:36 PM
They had to talk Lance up to justify publicly keeping him on the roster after the girlfriend down the stairs incident. There are a ton of reasons they would throw those things out there.

Also, this does mean I'm agreeing with most NBA GM's who would have passed on him. There's always that.



Yet this is the league that drafted Jason Williams out of Florida in the top 10 after getting kicked out of school for drugs (after getting caught several times). Then when asked about what he liked about college, he replied ... "I liked getting kicked out". THAT guy went 7th. You going to tell me Lance is less mature than that guy? How about Demarcus Cousins in the top 5?

Guys that are less immature, but with more talent get drafted in the top 10, because they're talented. Lance would have been no different if teams thought he was worthy of that talent wise.
I am just sharing with what I was told from a guy connected in the draft process. He worked at AAU camps like the CP3 skills camp and LBJ skills camp but now he opened his own place and trains KD and Joe Johnson He told me he knew stories about Lance that didn't even seem believable in a bad way and wouldn't of touched him.

CJ Jones
07-06-2012, 09:42 PM
[QUOTE=xBulletproof;1474343]They had to talk Lance up to justify publicly keeping him on the roster after the girlfriend down the stairs incident. There are a ton of reasons they would throw those things out there.

If they didn't like him as a player they wouldn't have stuck their neck out for him.


Also, this does mean I'm agreeing with most NBA GM's who would have passed on him. There's always that.

Would they have passed if he stayed another year or two? If he was putting up 20/5/5, which is entirely possible, I doubt it.

pacers74
07-06-2012, 10:27 PM
I am going to give Lance one last chance. But I am not going to be excited for him like I was 2 years ago when I watched every summer league game and thought he could be a stud.

Bball
07-06-2012, 10:27 PM
They had to talk Lance up to justify publicly keeping him on the roster after the girlfriend down the stairs incident. There are a ton of reasons they would throw those things out there.

Or they could've cut him. There's always that...

pacers74
07-06-2012, 10:27 PM
He is just like Jonathon Bender before they gave him the big contract and he got hurt.

naptownmenace
07-07-2012, 12:00 AM
Edit: You artfully chose not to list a second round non-difference maker named Ginobli.

I said 2nd round players that were drafted within the last decade.

CableKC
07-07-2012, 12:32 AM
The only thing that I can hope for is that PG finds whatever mojo that he had in the 1st half of the season. PG is more of an xfactor than Lance unless he takes some huge leap forward. I don't see Lance getting enough minutes to make a difference. The only way that he gets minutes is if we totally wiff on Mayo and Lee. The reality is that he can't produce unless he gets consistent minutes in the lineup.....that's not going to happen with GH/PG/Granger/DC and whatever Wing that we sign.

WhoLovesYaBaby?
07-07-2012, 01:27 AM
Which completely sucks. I really think Lance is going to have a breakout season, but with Mayo seemingly a Pacer now, I'm not sure what Lance's future with the team is. Maybe Lance and DC will be traded together as a package.
I guess I missed something. Mayo is coming here?

If he does and with Orlando Johnson drafted, the Lance lovers will have to follow him on some Chinese or Euro team. Or Lance could go take over a D league team.

PGisthefuture
07-07-2012, 01:32 AM
Let's take a look at the list of players you are lamenting not being Pacers.

Nash & DWill - Neither of them were EVER going to be here. Nothing our FO could do about that.
Calderon - Just not that good.
Lowry - Overrated, I think. Was traded in a deal I think no one saw coming.
Dragic - Way overpaid for a one-year-wonder.
Brooks - Again, I look at him as being overrated by some.
Brandon Roy - Huge health risk that I think some team will end up regretting.
Crawford - I'm trying to not laugh at the idea of that chucker. Pardon me, CHUCKER should be in caps for emphasis.

Where are the big loses that were real possibilities for the Pacers? Not in that list.

I also would not put all my eggs in the Lance in going to breakout basket.

Agreed, I would also like to add a few things.
Calderon- Old and has been playing on a really bad team.
Brooks- Basically Darren Collison 2.0 and I think DC may actually be better than Brooks.
Brandon Roy- Wouldn't have minded seeing him here, if we did offer him a David West type of contract and he didn't work out we would have been in some cap trouble.
Crawford- Probably would have had a similar scenario as last year. I've got a feeling he wouldn't like coming off the bench.

McKeyFan
07-07-2012, 05:31 AM
I said 2nd round players that were drafted within the last decade.

I know what you said. You artfully avoided listing the most influential second round pick in history . . . who's still a key player in the league.

CJ Jones
07-07-2012, 05:44 AM
The only thing that I can hope for is that PG finds whatever mojo that he had in the 1st half of the season. PG is more of an xfactor than Lance unless he takes some huge leap forward. I don't see Lance getting enough minutes to make a difference. The only way that he gets minutes is if we totally wiff on Mayo and Lee. The reality is that he can't produce unless he gets consistent minutes in the lineup.....that's not going to happen with GH/PG/Granger/DC and whatever Wing that we sign.

Yeah, that's why I'm on the fence about Mayo. With the additions of potentially him and Johnson, your right, Lance would have trouble finding minutes. If Mayo signs I'm hoping there's a trade soon after to free up minutes. If not, I think a DC/Mayo/George/Tyler/Plumlee 2nd unit could be fun. If we can pick up Brand to take Tyler's minutes and be the post scorer/vet leader, that could be a solid unit. Way better than what we had this past year.

McKeyFan
07-07-2012, 05:50 AM
Let's take a look at the list of players you are lamenting not being Pacers.

Nash & DWill - Neither of them were EVER going to be here. Nothing our FO could do about that.
Calderon - Just not that good.
Lowry - Overrated, I think. Was traded in a deal I think no one saw coming.
Dragic - Way overpaid for a one-year-wonder.
Brooks - Again, I look at him as being overrated by some.
Brandon Roy - Huge health risk that I think some team will end up regretting.
Crawford - I'm trying to not laugh at the idea of that chucker. Pardon me, CHUCKER should be in caps for emphasis.

Where are the big loses that were real possibilities for the Pacers? Not in that list.

I also would not put all my eggs in the Lance in going to breakout basket.

This is a good post, but let me respond to a few items.

First, it's not about "putting all our eggs in the Lance basket." It's that we don't have any eggs, except maybe Lance as a darkhorse.


Nash & DWill--Neither of them were EVER goign to be here. Nothing our FO could do about that.
Definitely possible. However, because of our extreme situation, I would like to see some extreme attempts. I would like to see us offer them an extreme amount, like Toronto did. Maybe the fact that we could become contenders would have tipped the scale our way. Maybe not. But I would have liked to seen the offer. We've got to make some big, risky moves.


Calderon - Just not that good.
Perhaps. But you know what I would like to see. Just one distributing point guard on the team. I don't care if he's third string. Calderon has issues, but if he was available in a trade for some kind of bargain, I would like see him or another point guard like him (weak on the defensive side) come to the Pacers to just see--just see if the difference made on the offensive side, seeing that we need an "ignition" so badly for our offense, would make up for what we give up on the other side of the floor. We haven't had a distributor since Tinsley.


Lowry - Overrated, I think. Was traded in a deal I think no one saw coming.
Not so overrated. Didn't go for that much. We could have had him for his not-overrated price. We need someone to create things. I see Lowry able to help there, and being a little better than Collison at seeing the floor. A GM's job is to work the phones to find out what may be coming.


Dragic - Way overpaid for a one-year-wonder.
Probably. Once again, though, maybe a large risk for us is in order. Dragic has the potential to be really good for many years.


Brooks - Again, I look at him as being overrated by some.
Same thing I said about Lowry.


Brandon Roy - Huge health risk that I think some team will end up regretting.
But maybe not. We've got to take some risks. Winning that high risk bet could be what turns our franchise.

Crawford
I'll give you this one. I haven't seen enough of him. He can definitely create, and seems great at the end of games, but don't see him passing much to help an offense throughout a game.


On a positive note, I liked the David West signing a lot. One more of those—with a little more risk/reward—will get us over the top.

naptownmenace
07-07-2012, 08:37 AM
I know what you said. You artfully avoided listing the most influential second round pick in history . . . who's still a key player in the league.

C'Mon MAN!

I went and looked back at all the 2nd round draft picks from each draft going all the way back to 2000. I didn't see Ginobilli because he was drafted in 1999. There was nothing artful about that.

I'm not denying that Ginobilli is great and one of the few 2nd round players that have become All-Stars. Even if you include him, that list is still very short. Out of over 300 players drafted since 2000, only a dozen or so have panned out. That was the point.

McKeyFan
07-07-2012, 09:49 AM
C'Mon MAN!

I went and looked back at all the 2nd round draft picks from each draft going all the way back to 2000. I didn't see Ginobilli because he was drafted in 1999. There was nothing artful about that.

I'm not denying that Ginobilli is great and one of the few 2nd round players that have become All-Stars. Even if you include him, that list is still very short. Out of over 300 players drafted since 2000, only a dozen or so have panned out. That was the point.
Fair enough.

I suppose when I see you thanking and quoting posts calling the OP "dumb" and "BS", things can get a little chippy.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 10:06 AM
Lance isn't a typical 2nd round pick. He dropped primarily due to his terrible reputation. Here are a few tidbits from Yahoo: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Lance-Stephenson-is-still-without-a-school-and-?urn=ncaab,172172

For these reasons, I didn't want to touch him. But I think his struggles in the NBA might be enough to temper his arrogance and he might possibly be growing up. For those who want him to be a SG, I think his ceiling there is pretty low. He's not going to play at a high level there. His best skill is when he has the ball in his hands and delivering passes in traffic...or driving to the hoop. Whether he puts that together is the big question, but he's not going to be a great SG. He doesn't have the foot speed to be that good defensively and he's not a great perimeter shooter. His only chance for greatness is PG although there remains big questions there. Still, let's see if he answers some of his critics.

Rogco
07-07-2012, 02:13 PM
Lance isn't a typical 2nd round pick. He dropped primarily due to his terrible reputation. Here are a few tidbits from Yahoo: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Lance-Stephenson-is-still-without-a-school-and-?urn=ncaab,172172

For these reasons, I didn't want to touch him. But I think his struggles in the NBA might be enough to temper his arrogance and he might possibly be growing up. For those who want him to be a SG, I think his ceiling there is pretty low. He's not going to play at a high level there. His best skill is when he has the ball in his hands and delivering passes in traffic...or driving to the hoop. Whether he puts that together is the big question, but he's not going to be a great SG. He doesn't have the foot speed to be that good defensively and he's not a great perimeter shooter. His only chance for greatness is PG although there remains big questions there. Still, let's see if he answers some of his critics.

Completely agree. I think he's looked at his best when he was playing PG, and pushing the tempo as well. He has shown some flashes of really good vision.

Eleazar
07-07-2012, 02:54 PM
Lance isn't a typical 2nd round pick. He dropped primarily due to his terrible reputation. Here are a few tidbits from Yahoo: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Lance-Stephenson-is-still-without-a-school-and-?urn=ncaab,172172

For these reasons, I didn't want to touch him. But I think his struggles in the NBA might be enough to temper his arrogance and he might possibly be growing up. For those who want him to be a SG, I think his ceiling there is pretty low. He's not going to play at a high level there. His best skill is when he has the ball in his hands and delivering passes in traffic...or driving to the hoop. Whether he puts that together is the big question, but he's not going to be a great SG. He doesn't have the foot speed to be that good defensively and he's not a great perimeter shooter. His only chance for greatness is PG although there remains big questions there. Still, let's see if he answers some of his critics.

He is at his best when he is hogging the ball, just like most players, that doesn't mean you want him to hog the ball, and the last player you ever want to be a ball hog is your PG.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 03:36 PM
I know what you said. You artfully avoided listing the most influential second round pick in history . . . who's still a key player in the league.

With good reason; international scouting has come a long way since then, and it's highly unlikely someone that good ever goes that low again because of being from somewhere else in the world than the US.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 03:37 PM
Lance isn't a typical 2nd round pick. He dropped primarily due to his terrible reputation. Here are a few tidbits from Yahoo: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Lance-Stephenson-is-still-without-a-school-and-?urn=ncaab,172172

For these reasons, I didn't want to touch him. But I think his struggles in the NBA might be enough to temper his arrogance and he might possibly be growing up. For those who want him to be a SG, I think his ceiling there is pretty low. He's not going to play at a high level there. His best skill is when he has the ball in his hands and delivering passes in traffic...or driving to the hoop. Whether he puts that together is the big question, but he's not going to be a great SG. He doesn't have the foot speed to be that good defensively and he's not a great perimeter shooter. His only chance for greatness is PG although there remains big questions there. Still, let's see if he answers some of his critics.

It could be another Monta Ellis story, or it could be another Von Wafer story.

Hicks
07-07-2012, 03:39 PM
Speaking of Monta, I see a similarity in the two in that I'm coming around to the "Lance is a SG" side of the debate. That doesn't mean you can't still play him at the PG, because frankly the NBA has more than a few SGs masquerading as PGs these days. But to me a true point guard also has skills related to leadership, knowing the right plays to call based on what his teammates can/can't do, thinking about controlling the flow/pace of the game, those sorts of things. Lance strikes me much more as a scorer who happens to be a gifted passer and knows how to use that ability to create opportunities for others based off of his dribble attacks. Still an interesting prospect.

Eleazar
07-07-2012, 03:42 PM
Speaking of Monta, I see a similarity in the two in that I'm coming around to the "Lance is a SG" side of the debate. That doesn't mean you can't still play him at the PG, because frankly the NBA has more than a few SGs masquerading as PGs these days. But to me a true point guard also has skills related to leadership, knowing the right plays to call based on what his teammates can/can't do, thinking about controlling the flow/pace of the game, those sorts of things. Lance strikes me much more as a scorer who happens to be a gifted passer and knows how to use that ability to create opportunities for others based off of his dribble attacks. Still an interesting prospect.

That is exactly why I think he has more potential as a SG than a PG. Just because a player is a gifted passer doesn't make him a PG, just makes him a gifted passer. More than any other position the PG position is about having a certain mentality more than a certain skill set. If you match Stephenson with a PG with that kind of mentality, and with good passing skills also you are going to have a much better much more dynamic team than if you are using Stephenson as your PG.

Sparhawk
07-07-2012, 03:56 PM
Lance is def a sg. However, what I would love to see from our head coach is creating mismatches. It always seems the Pacers are the ones making adjustments. How about we make other teams adjust for once. Playing Lance at point could create some huge disadvantages, especially if the opposing point isn't someone that is super athletic. Lance could just post up all day then.

BlueNGold
07-07-2012, 03:59 PM
Monta is good because he's quick, not because he has good passing skills and court vision. The only thing similar is they both like to go to the rack but Ellis does it by beating his man. Lance tries it with power, but against SG's that's not going to work. Lance cannot defend the position and is no threat from deep. His value is how he *might* be able to set other guys up and possibly overpower smaller PG's. Just don't hold your breath thinking he has a ghost of a chance to start at SG.

3rdStrike
07-07-2012, 04:45 PM
I'm not sure how much his listed position matters. He's a tweener, sort of like Monta Ellis, Dwyane Wade, Eric Gordon and a few other guys who were initially considered too small to play SG. Another one of them just happens to be our starting "point guard" that we just re-signed. I don't think anyone is calling George Hill a point guard just yet, but he does some of the things that point guards do (better than the rest of the roster), so he's the de facto guy, for now. Lance Stephenson is a guard, so you play him at whichever position you need to spell.

What should happen with Lance is that he should be given more freedom. It was pretty clear that Vogel all but commanded him to park in the corner and stay out of the way(the Artest play) last year. Understandable in a playoff run, though not so much at the end of blowout games. I'd like to see him play a lot more minutes with DC in the second unit. It was an exercise in frustration to watch Lou Amundson become the go-to guy for offense (before the Barbosa trade), especially when he took jump shots. If DC and Lance can work off of each other, it could really help both of their individual games as well as obviously helping the team. Let Lance initiate and create open looks for DC and vice versa. Sometimes DC just plain looked burnt out from always having to play on the ball.

Pacerfan
07-07-2012, 04:52 PM
I think that Lance will be an integral part of our rotation by the middle of next year. I can't say what role he will have but I do think it is beneficial to let him play and develop his game so that he is ready to help the team in the playoffs. His passing alone could help this team a lot in the playoffs. I would be fine with him playing either position. I really think Lance will turn the corner this year evidenced by that 20 something point game late last year. If we get O.J. Mayo, him and Lance and maybe even Orlando Johnson (if he's ready) might be able to help break down defenses in the playoffs.

CJ Jones
07-11-2012, 10:16 AM
That is exactly why I think he has more potential as a SG than a PG. Just because a player is a gifted passer doesn't make him a PG, just makes him a gifted passer. More than any other position the PG position is about having a certain mentality more than a certain skill set. If you match Stephenson with a PG with that kind of mentality, and with good passing skills also you are going to have a much better much more dynamic team than if you are using Stephenson as your PG.

I disagree. You got to have the skills first, and Lance clearly has PG skills.

I know most people have come to the conclusion Lance will never have the mentality to play PG, but I still have some hope. As long as you have a good feel for the game and you're willing to learn, I think you can be taught a mentality. What you can't teach though, is ball handling, passing, and vision.

naptownmenace
07-11-2012, 10:28 AM
Fair enough.

I suppose when I see you thanking and quoting posts calling the OP "dumb" and "BS", things can get a little chippy.
Lance's PG play has been impressive during the Summer League. He's looked like the best player on the floor each game he has played and he looks like the best PG in the Orlando Summer League. I think he now understands what his role is and how to play the point. Those were 2 things I didn't anticipate happening.

However, Lance isn't the only hope on the radar which is why I thanked those other posts calling you out for overreacting. Roy, Hill, and George still haven't hit their prime. There's plenty of reasons to have hope.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=keep+hope+alive&um=1&hl=en&safe=active&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=969&bih=485&tbm=isch&tbnid=MLWBL-j-NjNuVM:&imgrefurl=http://www.a-n-t-e-n-n-a-s.com/2011/11/keep-hope-alive.html&docid=GFUgere6orgsLM&imgurl=http://givemetherock.com/wp-content/uploads/keep_hope_alive_jesse_jackson.jpg&w=252&h=252&ei=8I39T9__HdCl2AW27YHjBg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=205&sig=101238831120466158623&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=153&start=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:81&tx=75&ty=82

Speed
07-11-2012, 10:33 AM
I thought Lance looked like a Point Guard and the best player on the floor in the Summer league his rookie year, too. He just didn't play all of the games. I do agree though, that he looks more mature, patient, whatever you want to call it. He has such an in-your-face, abrasive way he plays, so he really fits right in as long as it doesn't devolve into punk stuff, which he seems like he's figuring that out. I have tons of respect for any man that can take that shot Pittman gave him and walk away. He's not done anything yet, but I have to give him props from where he was two summers ago.

Ozwalt72
07-11-2012, 10:45 AM
I thought Lance looked like a Point Guard and the best player on the floor in the Summer league his rookie year, too. He just didn't play all of the games. I do agree though, that he looks more mature, patient, whatever you want to call it. He has such an in-your-face, abrasive way he plays, so he really fits right in as long as it doesn't devolve into punk stuff, which he seems like he's figuring that out. I have tons of respect for any man that can take that shot Pittman gave him and walk away. He's not done anything yet, but I have to give him props from where he was two summers ago.

This Lance and rookie Lance in summer league are two totally different players. That might be maturity level, experience and comfort level, or heck... maybe he's actually improved. I know his outside shot seems to be a lot better.

fwpacerfan
07-11-2012, 10:46 AM
Didn't Paul George initiate the offense quite a bit last year? I think Lance can be a key rotation guy at PG because this team has other guys who can help initiate things. It's all up to Lance and whether or not he's willing to listen and share the ball. He made some amazing passes last year only to follow it up on the next possession with a really stupid play. I hope a whole summer and training camp under Vogel's staff will help him. It can I just don't know if he'll listen.

Strummer
07-11-2012, 10:58 AM
Lance has owned the summer league so far.

He's not just flashy like in his first summer league. He's solid. He's in control. He's dominant. At least so far.

He's grown immensely as a player.

I don't care where he was drafted. That's not relevant. I don't care who said what about him. That's not relevant.

He's worked hard on his game and his self. As far as I'm concerned he's already proven most of you wrong. And I have no reason to believe he won't continue on that path.

90'sNBARocked
07-11-2012, 11:04 AM
Lance has owned the summer league so far.

He's not just flashy like in his first summer league. He's solid. He's in control. He's dominant. At least so far.

He's grown immensely as a player.

I don't care where he was drafted. That's not relevant. I don't care who said what about him. That's not relevant.

He's worked hard on his game and his self. As far as I'm concerned he's already proven most of you wrong. And I have no reason to believe he won't continue on that path.

My sediments exactly, well put

McKeyFan
07-11-2012, 11:49 AM
However, Lance isn't the only hope on the radar which is why I thanked those other posts calling you out for overreacting. Roy, Hill, and George still haven't hit their prime. There's plenty of reasons to have hope.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=keep+hope+alive&um=1&hl=en&safe=active&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=969&bih=485&tbm=isch&tbnid=MLWBL-j-NjNuVM:&imgrefurl=http://www.a-n-t-e-n-n-a-s.com/2011/11/keep-hope-alive.html&docid=GFUgere6orgsLM&imgurl=http://givemetherock.com/wp-content/uploads/keep_hope_alive_jesse_jackson.jpg&w=252&h=252&ei=8I39T9__HdCl2AW27YHjBg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=205&sig=101238831120466158623&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=153&start=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:81&tx=75&ty=82
I never said "hope" on the radar.

My OP said our offense is a "large truck engine but with no ignition to start it" and that "the only player in the vicinity of Pacerland that could provide this necessary component to our offense is Lance."

If you think someone else can provide that ignition to the offense, fine. I don't. But to call my post overreacting really is not very fair. "dumb" and "bs" is pretty mean spirited.

naptownmenace
07-11-2012, 03:17 PM
I never said "hope" on the radar.

My OP said our offense is a "large truck engine but with no ignition to start it" and that "the only player in the vicinity of Pacerland that could provide this necessary component to our offense is Lance."

If you think someone else can provide that ignition to the offense, fine. I don't. But to call my post overreacting really is not very fair. "dumb" and "bs" is pretty mean spirited.

But that's the thing... I don't think that Lance's development should be the "only thing left on the radar" for you to hope for. I'd never call you dumb. In my 12 years going back to the days at RATS, I don't think I've ever called anyone names.

I agree with you that the offense tends to bog down but the worse part of the offense is the failure to make quick crisp passes on-time and the struggles to feed the post. They were ranked 7th in the league in offensive efficiency even with these faults. Paul and Hill can improve in this area. Hibbert can improve at sealing off his defender. Frank can improve his offensive sets with a full off season and training camp. Lance is learning so I think the other young guys on the team can learn as well.

As they get more familiar with playing with each other and learn each other's strengths I think they'll make positive improvements in the offense.