PDA

View Full Version : Why trading for Kevin Martin would make tons of sense for the Pacers, and would allow us to keep Roy while having a ton of flexibility



BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 11:36 AM
I've been preaching this for a day now... Haha.

Kevin Martin, of whom is being replaced by Jeremy Lamb in the future for the Rockets, is on the trade block, and not very valuable to the Rockets. Houston wants young assets for his 12.4 million expiring deal. This career big time scorer has flaws because of his lack of defense, and he has his flaws, hence why it would be a small risk for us. However, he would be a much better option than throwing a four/five year contract at either OJ Mayo or Courtney Lee basketball wise.

If we re-sign Hill and Hibbert, we would be right at the salary cap hold. If we make our moves now, we have 11 million to bank on. Assuming we would trade DC (A great backup point), Tyler Hansbrough, and a first round pick for him, we would be adding around 7 million in cap by acquiring Martin. If we throw Dahntay in the deal, or trade him elsewhere for space, Martin would only eat up 4 million of the 11 million. We would be at around 60 million from there.

Hill/
George/Martin
Granger/Martin
West/Pendergraph
Roy/ Plumlee*

The real value in this trade would be that we would have the flexibility to match Roy Hibbert without having the financial risk, while adding a good player in Kevin Martin.

Here's the real catch: In the summer of 2013, we would only have George Hill (7m), Hibbert (13m), George (3m), Miles and OJ (rounding to 2m), and Danny Granger (14m) under contract, adding up to 39 million in pay roll, giving us about 16 million to work with. David West's 10 million contract comes off the books, Kevin Martins 12.4 million comes off the books, and we would have the option of letting go of Stephenson if he doesn't make strides (1m). Subtract 55 million (Estimated salary cap) from 39 and we have 16 million in cap space. From then we could go after cream of the crop free agents WHILE being able to re-sign David West and Kevin Martin because of bird's rights.

*We would have huge caps in our roster this season, and we could fill them out by signing one year deals with a veteran big man and a backup point guard, maybe with team options. Backup point guards who could come for the minimum are Ish Smith, AJ Price, John Lucas, Patty Mills, Earl Boykins, or Armon Johnson. Big men are Jermaine O'Neal, Kenyon Martin, or Antawn Jamison. We'd still have 7 million to spend if we dump Dahntay's contract. So we could also get more quality players if they are short term deals.

Instead of going after a wing for multiple years in free agency choking us cap wise, we could get a better player who also expires in a year, with bird's rights, so we could go over the cap to re-sign him.

Trading for Martin makes sense because:
1) He fills a need
2) He justifies Roy's 'overpaying'
3) He has bird's rights
4) He is a better risk because he doesn't have to be a long term commitment.
5) He frees up 12.4 m in salary after next year, taking care of the Hansbrough/Collison dilemma.

I actually think the Rockets would accept this deal, too. They like to flip assets and they want to re-build. If they want Miles, OJ, or Stephenson, I'd give them to Morey as well.

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 11:49 AM
2013 free agents we could be interested in are:
Josh Smith
Paul Milsap
Al Jefferson
Dejuan Blair (Who is unrestricted btw)
Taj Gibson
Jose Calderon
Jarrett Jack
Shawn Marion
Samuel Dalembert
Anthony Morrow
JJ Reddick
Tony Allen

And then there is Ty Lawson who is restricted.

pacersgroningen
07-05-2012, 11:51 AM
Interesting thought, do like the possibilities we create for ourselves this way, but the team we'd be fielding this year seems to miss any sort of depth. With all the speculation going on and the fact we seem to be fishing in an empty pond all the time, can we lure washed up old guys or are those out of reach as well? And if we weren't even a serious option this year for top FA's, when in the future would we be?

Sparhawk
07-05-2012, 11:56 AM
Why couldn't this go in the Trade proposal section.

tadscout
07-05-2012, 11:56 AM
Doesn't add any flexibility... Jones is expiring, and Hans and DC can have their rights renounced if we needed the space (or S&T for picks).

DrFife
07-05-2012, 11:56 AM
Props for the creative thinking, BJB. I don't know if acquiring Martin is my preferred idea (I doubt it, actually), but I do really hope that there's a trade of some kind in the works. Methinks TPTB's overarching goal is to be increasingly competitive over the next three years (which implies i) not taking a step backward, even in order to take two steps forward; and ii) be better this year, but maybe still not quite ready for contention).

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 12:01 PM
Concerns me as well.

It sure is a not deep team. But we would still have 7 million to spend. We could sign a quality backup point guard such as Kirk Hinrich, or go cheaper in say AJ Price or the old Portland backup point guards. If we go after Hinrich, we would lose our flexibility towards a big man. But if we go cheap at backup pg, we could go after a veteran like Antawn Jamison or Elton Brand to hold us over, and be productive until next year when we really reload.

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 12:03 PM
Why couldn't this go in the Trade proposal section.

It's more than a trade proposal. I didn't even give a specific trade proposal. It's more about shedding salary, and how Kevin Martin is productive, yet a key to shed salary.

A better option than OJ Mayo or Lee, and gives us more incentive to match Roy.

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 12:07 PM
Doesn't add any flexibility... Jones is expiring, and Hans and DC can have their rights renounced if we needed the space (or S&T for picks).

I'm saying that if we go offer OJ Mayo 4 years/30 million, that would hinder us greatly. Instead of adding salary onto our team, take Tyler's, DC's and Jones salaries with the cost of a pick or two for a BETTER player who's bird rights we would acquire, and would expire. Which would only add up to 4 million against our 11 million in flexibility. Gives us way more flexibility, and more talent. Houston wants assets, as usual, and we have at least one very good asset in DC, and we have picks.

ballism
07-05-2012, 12:13 PM
It would be almost hilarious if the Rockets add another PF.
They have 5 of them under contract, and 3 young promising PFs with lottery talent are waiting to join.

That said, I could see this deal. It makes sense for them. They could use DC, and a pick is nice. What do we do about our point guard spot?

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 12:17 PM
Of course we've got Hill, and we'd still have about 4 million to spend, seven million if we can dump Dahntay. We could get a guy for the minimum, like AJ Price, John Lucas, or Patty Mills. Or we could go after a Kirk Hinrich for a more steep price.

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 12:18 PM
Basically, this year would just be interesting. I think we'd be better than last year with the acquisition of Martin and growth from the George's and Hibbert, but there would be some big holes.

It sets us up to have a very complete team from 2013 on out.

ballism
07-05-2012, 12:36 PM
ahh i read into the 2013 part better.
it won't work though, we can't both resign Martin/West and have cap space in 2013.

CableKC
07-05-2012, 12:36 PM
Although KMart's defense is Troy Murphy bad......he is one of the more efficient shooters in the league. The problem is that....IMHO....I think the FO and Simons want to approach the Team with a "more bang for the buck" and a "let's pin our hopes on developing from within to get to the next level" mentality. I would think that they'd go with the "cheaper" route of looking at the young talent that should have been RFAs but has been released by their Teams to become UFAs. Players like Mayo and Lee IMHO would be the type of Players that the FO are looking at....basically young talent that is in their primes that can be had for a reasonable price.

I would not be surprised if ALL that we did this offseason was ( A ) re-sign GH, ( B ) match Hibbert's offer ( unlikely IMHO ) or make an offer to Kaman and sign him at $10 mil per season / 4 years, ( C ) sign Courtney Lee for $3-4 mil a year to fill out the rotation and then find some really cheap 3rd string PG.

yoadknux
07-05-2012, 12:53 PM
Creative idea, the problem imo is that the team's salary is gonna be like what, around $70m after MLEs and Bird rights and all that?
If I'm the owner, I don't pay $70m for a team that isn't going to contend.

Justin Tyme
07-05-2012, 12:54 PM
Not interested in trading a 1st for a one year rental of K-Mart. You need picks to build and go forward with.

Steagles
07-05-2012, 01:01 PM
Not interested in trading a 1st for a one year rental of K-Mart. You need picks to build and go forward with.

Not when our FO wastes them on Miles Pumlee.

tadscout
07-05-2012, 01:04 PM
Not when our FO wastes them on Miles Pumlee.

Come on he hasn't played a :censored: game yet.

Pacer Fan
07-05-2012, 01:15 PM
Kmart is not worth all that, he is a liability at 12.5mil. Why do so many value other teams players so high and ours so low? If he was worth the 12.5 mil., Houston would not want to trade him for the 2nd year in a row. I understand he is an expiring and he is no further commitment after this year. But I was so thankful for the last year of Dunleavey, I don't want to see him back another year. Maybe Houston can make it worth our while to take him!

ballism
07-05-2012, 01:19 PM
Kmart is not worth all that, he is a liability at 12.5mil. Why do so many value other teams players so high and ours so low? If he was worth the 12.5 mil., Houston would not want to trade him for the 2nd year in a row. I understand he is an expiring and he is no further commitment after this year. But I was so thankful for the last year of Dunleavey, I don't want to see him back another year. Maybe Houston can make it worth our while to take him!
way to swing in the opposite direction!

mrknowname
07-05-2012, 01:21 PM
would rather go after gerald green

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 01:42 PM
ahh i read into the 2013 part better.
it won't work though, we can't both resign Martin/West and have cap space in 2013.

It would work, it'd be the same situation as this year though. The Martin and West parties would have to be patient, while we pursue so and so. With our bird rights, we re-sign them. 39m (Our salary for next season assuming we match Hibbert) leaves us 16 million away from the cap.

Just going to go on the deep end and say that Martin and West cost 20m to re-sign, so that leaves us an 11m gap until we hit the tax. Considering we may not re-sign one or both of them, we could have a ton of cap flexibility. But I think the plan would be to at least re-sign West hopefully for cheaper.

______
We could spend that 16 million on players. Say we get Josh Smith at 4 years/45 million and Jarrett Jack at 3 years/12 million (Probably won't happen but this is speculative). We are right at the cap, 15 million away from the tax. We could then re-sign David West. And Kevin Martin if he performs well. One of the two would likely have to take a cut, most likely West, but it COULD work.

Most likely thing to do, though is just sign one impact player and re-sign West and Martin, leaving us space away from the tax. I think adding Martin and another impact player would bring us into contention, but that is just a fan's opinion.

2013:
Improved Hill/Player
Improved George/Martin/Johnson
Granger/Martin
West/Player X
Hibbert/Player X/Plumlee

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 01:52 PM
This all seems a little moot to me, btw. It looks like we are going to get OJ Mayo and Chris Kaman, while hopefully matching Roy. Which leaves DC, Hansbrough, Jones, and picks as trading pieces. I DO THINK though that the front office has this KMart stuff in mind, and hopefully they do.

Kaman + OJ + the 20 million from Roy and George + Granger and Paul under contract = somewhere around 53 million, 2 million away from the cap. If we go over, that means we have the MLE, which is good. Re-sign West.

Donnie/Pritchard's plan for 2014
Hill/
George/OJ
Granger/OJ
West/Kaman
Hibbert/Kaman

With an MLE guy on the team.

What could be their actual plan 2014:
Hill
George/Martin
Granger/Martin
West/Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, or Paul Milsap
Hibbert/Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, or Paul Milsap

It's all moot to me really. I just think it'd be a more financially savvy move to trade our stuff for Martin than to make a commitment to Mayo.

ballism
07-05-2012, 01:54 PM
It would work, it'd be the same situation as this year though. The Martin and West parties would have to be patient, while we pursue so and so. With our bird rights, we re-sign them. 39m (Our salary for next season assuming we match Hibbert) leaves us 16 million away from the cap.


K-Martin's cap hold will be at ~18 mil and D-West's 13 mil.
Our other commitments and cap holds will be at ~44 mil, even if we give up the pick. In total, ~75 mil.
Salary cap is 58 mil.

We could renounce Martin and West and have ~14 mil, but in that case we'd lose their Bird/Early Bird rights.

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 01:56 PM
Where did you get those numbers from? I wasn't aware that there was a cap hold on those two since they are unrestricted veterans. I thought cap holds applied to guys coming off their rookie contracts. If you're correct, which you probably are, than that makes this whole thing moot for sure.

tadscout
07-05-2012, 02:00 PM
Where did you get those numbers from? I wasn't aware that there was a cap hold on those two since they are unrestricted veterans. I thought cap holds applied to guys coming off their rookie contracts. If you're correct, which you probably are, than that makes this whole thing moot for sure.

Thus my less flexibility comment ;)

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 02:04 PM
Damn... I don't understand the Early Bird exception very well. I didn't know that that made a cap hold.

So that means that next year we will be over the cap, thus allowing us to use the MLE?

ballism
07-05-2012, 02:05 PM
Where did you get those numbers from? I wasn't aware that there was a cap hold on those two since they are unrestricted veterans. I thought cap holds applied to guys coming off their rookie contracts. If you're correct, which you probably are, than that makes this whole thing moot for sure.

I just calculated using their salaries. There are cap holds for anyone with some sort of Bird rights. It's just the highest for rookies (in terms of %). For Bird veterans it's 150%-190% of previous salary (Martin or Barbosa right now), for early Bird (West) 130%.

Jeremy
07-05-2012, 02:07 PM
I think that getting him could make Danny Granger trade-able.

ballism
07-05-2012, 02:27 PM
Damn... I don't understand the Early Bird exception very well. I didn't know that that made a cap hold.

So that means that next year we will be over the cap, thus allowing us to use the MLE?

yes, we should have it, unless we let West go/clear the cap again.

doctor-h
07-05-2012, 02:57 PM
Of course we've got Hill, and we'd still have about 4 million to spend, seven million if we can dump Dahntay. We could get a guy for the minimum, like AJ Price, John Lucas, or Patty Mills. Or we could go after a Kirk Hinrich for a more steep price.

Be still my heart. What a complete waste of money and time. Typical pacer response do nothing this year and act like you might next. This was supposed to be the year we were targeting. DO SOMETHING!

doctor-h
07-05-2012, 03:00 PM
This all seems a little moot to me, btw. It looks like we are going to get OJ Mayo and Chris Kaman, while hopefully matching Roy. Which leaves DC, Hansbrough, Jones, and picks as trading pieces. I DO THINK though that the front office has this KMart stuff in mind, and hopefully they do.

Kaman + OJ + the 20 million from Roy and George + Granger and Paul under contract = somewhere around 53 million, 2 million away from the cap. If we go over, that means we have the MLE, which is good. Re-sign West.

Donnie/Pritchard's plan for 2014
Hill/
George/OJ
Granger/OJ
West/Kaman
Hibbert/Kaman

With an MLE guy on the team.

What could be their actual plan 2014:
Hill
George/Martin
Granger/Martin
West/Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, or Paul Milsap
Hibbert/Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, or Paul Milsap

It's all moot to me really. I just think it'd be a more financially savvy move to trade our stuff for Martin than to make a commitment to Mayo.

What makes you think that we are getting Kaman and Mayo, retaining Roy and still might get Martin. I think you should be realistic.