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graphic-er
07-05-2012, 11:12 AM
I have a feeling that the Pacers have totally whiffed on this Free Agency so far, and not its not just concerning Gordon.

When you look at this team 2 years from now, they will be stuck. They may or may not have David West after next year, but definitely you can count on a 10 million expenditure to keep the PF position strong. Granger's 14 million will expire and at the same time they will have to sign George in RFA. If they are already paying Hill 8 million then you bank on George getting somewhere between 8-10 million as well. If George Actually develops in to a killer, then you are talking max deal. No cap space left. If you trade Granger next year and bring back young talent, you are still screwed, because now you probably won't have the cap room to extend George.

This free agency is incredibly important in filling the the one big hole this team needs, a go to scorer. If the Pacers secure that #1 option player this free agency, then that gives a alot of options going forward with how we handle Granger and George.

If we dont' then the Pacers will essentially be the same type of team they are now 3years into the future. A good team with one big glaring weakness and no cap room to change anything. We are essentially banking on the idea that George is going to be a franchise changing player in the next 2 years.

mrknowname
07-05-2012, 12:02 PM
striking out in free agency isn't the end of the world. honestly its probably better for small market teams like the pacers to draft well and make some good creative trades than to overpay in free agency

Speed
07-05-2012, 12:11 PM
I like what Ainge says, he'd rather trade for players, you know what your getting and don't have to overspend, like you almost always do in Free Agency. The Cap is always a concern, but things are also always fluid. You have a team of players that have value now, thats worlds better than we were two years ago. We're 5 days into Free Agency, still alot of things left to happen.

CableKC
07-05-2012, 12:20 PM
striking out in free agency isn't the end of the world. honestly its probably better for small market teams like the pacers to draft well and make some good creative trades than to overpay in free agency
Great, since we got the first part down....I'm totally not worried about making "creative trades".

naptownmenace
07-05-2012, 12:24 PM
I posted this in the Dragic thread but I'll post it again because people seem to be overreacting way too much.

Saying that the Pacers FA hunt is a failure is very premature considering no free agents have been signed and no trades have been finalized. Besides, the Pacers always keep things close to the vest. You never hear about a lot of rumors until a deal is close to being done. Free agency will continue all the way until training camp starts. Don't get so worked up about it before it happens.

Ace E.Anderson
07-05-2012, 12:31 PM
I have a feeling that the Pacers have totally whiffed on this Free Agency so far, and not its not just concerning Gordon.

When you look at this team 2 years from now, they will be stuck. They may or may not have David West after next year, but definitely you can count on a 10 million expenditure to keep the PF position strong. Granger's 14 million will expire and at the same time they will have to sign George in RFA. If they are already paying Hill 8 million then you bank on George getting somewhere between 8-10 million as well. If George Actually develops in to a killer, then you are talking max deal. No cap space left. If you trade Granger next year and bring back young talent, you are still screwed, because now you probably won't have the cap room to extend George.

This free agency is incredibly important in filling the the one big hole this team needs, a go to scorer. If the Pacers secure that #1 option player this free agency, then that gives a alot of options going forward with how we handle Granger and George.

If we dont' then the Pacers will essentially be the same type of team they are now 3years into the future. A good team with one big glaring weakness and no cap room to change anything. We are essentially banking on the idea that George is going to be a franchise changing player in the next 2 years.

There weren't many go to scores available in FA this yr. Gordon's rights are getting matched by NO so that WASN'T happening. Nash knew what teams he wanted to go to, and he's not even a go to scorer either. We're 4 days into FA and NOTHING is finalized yet. Let's wait till the summer is over before we determine if we had a good summer or not.

vnzla81
07-05-2012, 12:37 PM
striking out in free agency isn't the end of the world. honestly its probably better for small market teams like the pacers to draft well and make some good creative trades than to overpay in free agency

Thanks for making me feel better ....... :fatbanana

yoadknux
07-05-2012, 12:59 PM
But you gotta understand, there's no one available in free agency who's a franchise changer. Deron? Not in the discussion. Nash? Ignored us. Who do you go for? Dragic? Is he really that good? not imo. Do you sign medicore talent and hope they somehow blossom, like Mayo and Bass? Well, you could get lucky, but chances are you're going to overpay for guys who may not even be legit starters.

The only move I question so far is the G.Hill contract. But the FO knows stuff we don't, so I guess we have to wait and see what happens.

Pacersalltheway10
07-05-2012, 01:01 PM
Now it looks like Roy is gone. The Pacers will always just be a fringe playoff team now.

Unclebuck
07-05-2012, 01:05 PM
Don't you think it is a little early to to declare anything. I mean officially free agents cannot sign until July 11th.

What day did David West sign last year? December 11th. Oh well last year was weird.

I just think it is too early to know anyting yet

I only expected the pacers to re-sign Roy and Hill. Maybe make a trade, or sign a mid level player

Sparhawk
07-05-2012, 01:05 PM
striking out in free agency isn't the end of the world. honestly its probably better for small market teams like the pacers to draft well and make some good creative trades than to overpay in free agency

That's true, but you need to hit home runs in the draft. Hans and Plumlee will set the franchise back long term. West is gone next year and then we are stuck with just Hans. He's not a starter and should be more like a 3rd or 4th PF option. More of an instigator type player. Plumlee is a 23 year old dude, who has some nice athleticism that he never showed in a game. He has a couple of nice workouts and he's all the sudden this miracle player. It doesn't work that way. I at least think he'll be better than Hans, but not that much better.

Trading a pick for Hill didn't help either. Pacers could have had a controllable player like Brooks, and then used that money Hill is getting on a guy like Dragic.

Bird just gets so fixated on certain players that he's hurting the long term stability of this team. FA isn't an option, but if we aren't making smart moves in the draft, then where does that leave this team?

Only hope I have is Pritchard and his ability to judge talent & make some trades happen.

mrknowname
07-05-2012, 01:12 PM
That's true, but you need to hit home runs in the draft. Hans and Plumlee will set the franchise back long term. West is gone next year and then we are stuck with just Hans. He's not a starter and should be more like a 3rd or 4th PF option. More of an instigator type player. Plumlee is a 23 year old dude, who has some nice athleticism that he never showed in a game. He has a couple of nice workouts and he's all the sudden this miracle player. It doesn't work that way. I at least think he'll be better than Hans, but not that much better.

Trading a pick for Hill didn't help either. Pacers could have had a controllable player like Brooks, and then used that money Hill is getting on a guy like Dragic.

Bird just gets so fixated on certain players that he's hurting the long term stability of this team. FA isn't an option, but if we aren't making smart moves in the draft, then where does that leave this team?

Only hope I have is Pritchard and his ability to judge talent & make some trades happen.


too early to write off plumlee as a failure. if theres one thing that translate from college to nba, its rebounding and he did it as well as anybody in the draft

hans would probably do better next to a legit center.

why do you guys want to bank on free agency? theres a good chance a lot the free agents the fans want don't want to sign with the pacers

Sparhawk
07-05-2012, 01:15 PM
too early to write off plumlee as a failure. if theres one thing that translate from college to nba, its rebounding and he did it as well as anybody in the draft

hans would probably do better next to a legit center.

why do you guys want to bank on free agency? theres a good chance a lot the free agents the fans want don't want to sign with the pacers

I don't want to bank on FA. I was saying because the Pacers don't dip into their pockets as a general rule for FA, then they need to make sure their picks are more than solid. Hans & Plumlee were not solid picks. And while I love Hill and glad he's a Pacer, the Pacers could have had a controllable player for the next 3 years and used that extra money on something else...paying Hibbert, getting Dragic, a backup PF/C, etc.

mrknowname
07-05-2012, 01:17 PM
I don't want to bank on FA. I was saying because the Pacers don't dip into their pockets as a general rule for FA, then they need to make sure their picks are more than solid. Hans & Plumlee were not solid picks. And while I love Hill and glad he's a Pacer, the Pacers could have had a controllable player for the next 3 years and used that extra money on something else...paying Hibbert, getting Dragic, a backup PF/C, etc.

i get what you're saying, but we should wait and see what plumlee can do first.

Steagles
07-05-2012, 01:19 PM
Now it looks like Roy is gone. The Pacers will always just be a fringe playoff team now.

If we don't match Roy the Bank will go up in flames.

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8655958/480/crap/portland-riot.png

xtacy
07-05-2012, 01:23 PM
striking out in free agency isn't the end of the world. honestly its probably better for small market teams like the pacers to draft well and make some good creative trades than to overpay in free agency

great that's our specialty.

mrknowname
07-05-2012, 01:31 PM
sarcasm?


i don't know about anybody else by i think the pacers have drafted pretty well over the years

Ace E.Anderson
07-05-2012, 01:50 PM
sarcasm?


i don't know about anybody else by i think the pacers have drafted pretty well over the years

We have been pretty below average for the most part in the draft.
Plumlee (dont know yet) Hans, Shawne Williams, James White, David Harrison.

We did get hits with Granger, George, and Roy though

doctor-h
07-05-2012, 03:08 PM
I have a feeling that the Pacers have totally whiffed on this Free Agency so far, and not its not just concerning Gordon.

When you look at this team 2 years from now, they will be stuck. They may or may not have David West after next year, but definitely you can count on a 10 million expenditure to keep the PF position strong. Granger's 14 million will expire and at the same time they will have to sign George in RFA. If they are already paying Hill 8 million then you bank on George getting somewhere between 8-10 million as well. If George Actually develops in to a killer, then you are talking max deal. No cap space left. If you trade Granger next year and bring back young talent, you are still screwed, because now you probably won't have the cap room to extend George.

This free agency is incredibly important in filling the the one big hole this team needs, a go to scorer. If the Pacers secure that #1 option player this free agency, then that gives a alot of options going forward with how we handle Granger and George.

If we dont' then the Pacers will essentially be the same type of team they are now 3years into the future. A good team with one big glaring weakness and no cap room to change anything. We are essentially banking on the idea that George is going to be a franchise changing player in the next 2 years.

We way overpaid for Hill, could have gotten that productive of a player for 4 or 5 million a year. Where was he in crunch time of the playoffs. Absent just like most of our guys.

doctor-h
07-05-2012, 03:10 PM
i get what you're saying, but we should wait and see what plumlee can do first.

We have already seen what he can do and it is not much. How many players that did nothing in college can you name that blossomed in the pros. We are always waiting and most fans are sick of it. Just another pick in the lines of Gray, Dreiling, Brezec, and Sundov and Harrison.

Ace E.Anderson
07-05-2012, 03:10 PM
We way overpaid for Hill, could have gotten that productive of a player for 4 or 5 million a year. Where was he in crunch time of the playoffs. Absent just like most of our guys.

He made a few clutch baskets in Games 2 and 4 of the Orlando series. And he had a very good game in game 6 of the MIA series.

Blink
07-05-2012, 03:28 PM
We have been pretty below average

The problem with that list is that 3 out of 4 of those were pick 26 or later, and we don't even know how Plumlee will pan out. Of the two that we really missed on in the last 8 years, at least one is a serviceable backup.

OlBlu
07-05-2012, 04:30 PM
I have a feeling that the Pacers have totally whiffed on this Free Agency so far, and not its not just concerning Gordon.

When you look at this team 2 years from now, they will be stuck. They may or may not have David West after next year, but definitely you can count on a 10 million expenditure to keep the PF position strong. Granger's 14 million will expire and at the same time they will have to sign George in RFA. If they are already paying Hill 8 million then you bank on George getting somewhere between 8-10 million as well. If George Actually develops in to a killer, then you are talking max deal. No cap space left. If you trade Granger next year and bring back young talent, you are still screwed, because now you probably won't have the cap room to extend George.

This free agency is incredibly important in filling the the one big hole this team needs, a go to scorer. If the Pacers secure that #1 option player this free agency, then that gives a alot of options going forward with how we handle Granger and George.

If we dont' then the Pacers will essentially be the same type of team they are now 3years into the future. A good team with one big glaring weakness and no cap room to change anything. We are essentially banking on the idea that George is going to be a franchise changing player in the next 2 years.

The Pacers just try to keep an entertaining team that can make the playoffs but little more. That has been their MO since they have been in the NBA and then Reggie and company took them to the finals. But they really didn't add great players to that team to get there, they developed them. That is why they have only been there once in that last 40 years or so........ Their fan base has been damaged and I don't know if they will come out and support the team or not.... I sure hope so.....:cool:

Dr. Hibbert
07-05-2012, 04:51 PM
When all is said and done, I think we will see a roster that is A) worse than last year and B) built to put fans in seats, not win championships (although the latter would accomplish the former, so I don't understand that mentality).

Steagles
07-05-2012, 05:15 PM
"The long term project of the team is to throw away fans and move the team" said all Sonics fans.

pacergod2
07-05-2012, 05:22 PM
Yeah, there is nothing to even know about what direction we are going until July 14th. That is the day we know whether or not we match Hibbert. We will wait to sign Hill until we are done making all of our moves. There is nothing to know. We have ~$10M to work with the first two days of free agency if we are going to sign anyone. I bet we sign someone else to fill out our roster. Other than that, we will probably have the current team back. I could see us not matching Hibbert and filling that void with a guy like Kaman and still taking the same approach with adding one other player.

There is nothing going on with the Pacers because we don't leak information. That is the way we work. Watch everybody else make pretend moves while we wait to hear about what we are really doing. It's like the kid who can't wait for Christmas, yet he can't go sneak into his parents closet.

As we stand right now:

PG - Hill, Collison
SG - George, Stephenson, Johnson
SF - Granger, DJones
PF - West, Hansborough
C - Pendergraph, Plumlee

vnzla81
07-05-2012, 05:30 PM
There is nothing going on with the Pacers because we don't leak information. That is the way we work. Watch everybody else make pretend moves while we wait to hear about what we are really doing. It's like the kid who can't wait for Christmas, yet he can't go sneak into his parents closet.

I'm sorry Pacersgod2 but I've been hearing this forever, all I keep hearing is that we have this and we have that and at the end of the day nothing is happening.

Mourning
07-05-2012, 05:42 PM
striking out in free agency isn't the end of the world. honestly its probably better for small market teams like the pacers to draft well and make some good creative trades than to overpay in free agency

Awesome since we have like how many players under contract 10, 11? I'm really curious what kind of "creative trades" we actually can make, especially when we we are getting more signals from outsiders that we might just let our best RFA walk for zilch, while signing the other one who I'm not that high on to a pretty big contract.


I'm REALLY hoping we do have something nice in the back, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Tom White
07-05-2012, 05:57 PM
The only move I question so far is the G.Hill contract.

That's also the only move they've made so far. So.....in essence, you are questioning 100% of their moves.

mrknowname
07-05-2012, 06:27 PM
Awesome since we have like how many players under contract 10, 11? I'm really curious what kind of "creative trades" we actually can make, especially when we we are getting more signals from outsiders that we might just let our best RFA walk for zilch, while signing the other one who I'm not that high on to a pretty big contract.


I'm REALLY hoping we do have something nice in the back, but I'm not getting my hopes up.


too many posters seem to be crying this week. its still early in the free agency process.

maybe the pacers can hand out free pacifiers for the season opener

vnzla81
07-05-2012, 06:31 PM
too many posters seem to be crying this week. its still early in the free agency process.

maybe the pacers can hand out free pacifiers for the season opener

I think they should start to hand out free brown bags...

panthro_1
07-05-2012, 06:42 PM
Now it looks like Roy is gone. The Pacers will always just be a fringe playoff team now.

Is it just me or has everyone forgot(In the Hype) all the games Roy couldnt hit the side of a barn, now we are wanna give him a max deal and down the line not be able to re-sign dwest or pgeorge? I dont find the logic.....

ksuttonjr76
07-05-2012, 06:44 PM
The 5th-8th seeds....if the only thing we do is resign Roy and Hill. If we don't sign Roy, then we'll be a lottery or fringe team.

OlBlu
07-05-2012, 06:45 PM
I don't really care about resigning Dwest. We will be ready to move on when that happens. I don't see how matching for pgeorge is effected by matching for Hibbert......:cool:

Ozwalt72
07-05-2012, 06:52 PM
Is it just me or has everyone forgot(In the Hype) all the games Roy couldnt hit the side of a barn, now we are wanna give him a max deal and down the line not be able to re-sign dwest or pgeorge? I dont find the logic.....

Roy's impact is defensively for us. Not to mention he keeps improving as a rebounder. He's also our only real offensive threat at the 4/5 other than West. When his offense is on he's worth every penny of that 58 mil.

BrownBearCoffee
07-05-2012, 07:18 PM
Roy's impact is defensively for us. Not to mention he keeps improving as a rebounder. He's also our only real offensive threat at the 4/5 other than West. When his offense is on he's worth every penny of that 58 mil.

This. Yes, it could be a huge mistake. Then again, how would we feel if he goes to Portland and turns into an 18 and 11 guy, along with 2-3 blocks a game?

panthro_1
07-05-2012, 07:21 PM
Roy's impact is defensively for us. Not to mention he keeps improving as a rebounder. He's also our only real offensive threat at the 4/5 other than West. When his offense is on he's worth every penny of that 58 mil.

I just hope if we do re-sign him at a big contract, he continues to improve and doesnt do a J O'neal....

Banta
07-05-2012, 08:02 PM
So, is the plan going forward that George Hill is our PG of the future? I only ask because he's not really a great PG and his true position is 2. But, if he were our 2, then Paul George is what? Back up 2? Of course, Paul's true position is 3 but we have Granger there. I guess Paul could be the back up 3, but most people here at PD think Paul is the second coming of Christ so I can't imagine him backing up either Hill or Granger. And if we bring in Mayo or someone like Courtney Lee, are they just coming in to logjam at 2 so people have something to laugh about? Because remember we *also* have our former starting PG Collison who is valuable (as the only fast guy on the roster) and needs to be on the floor and will see some of that at 2 but also seeing some time backing up the 2 we now have starting at PG. Our wing situation seems muddled as it is without bringing in anyone else, unless you're going to bring in (via trade, I suppose) the true PG we really need, although that would seem stupid considering we just gave our true 2 who plays PG a big@ss contract. Meanwhile Dahntay has opted in and is the only back up we really have for Granger...though he also sees spot duty at the 2 (except no PT at all in the playoffs).

I hope everyone appreciates me clarifying the direction of the team.

pacergod2
07-05-2012, 08:22 PM
I'm sorry Pacersgod2 but I've been hearing this forever, all I keep hearing is that we have this and we have that and at the end of the day nothing is happening.

Wait, you are being impatient and impulsive? I can't believe it!

We can't have every single person that is out there that people think are worth signing. We have to take a stance on our direction and make longer term plans to be able to maneuver around it.

BigAndy
07-05-2012, 08:28 PM
I think we got pretty excited the first couple days of free agency when we were connected with like every FA. Now we've had no news in days and all the FAs are getting gobbled up.

pacergod2
07-05-2012, 08:30 PM
So, is the plan going forward that George Hill is our PG of the future? I only ask because he's not really a great PG and his true position is 2. But, if he were our 2, then Paul George is what? Back up 2? Of course, Paul's true position is 3 but we have Granger there. I guess Paul could be the back up 3, but most people here at PD think Paul is the second coming of Christ so I can't imagine him backing up either Hill or Granger. And if we bring in Mayo or someone like Courtney Lee, are they just coming in to logjam at 2 so people have something to laugh about? Because remember we *also* have our former starting PG Collison who is valuable (as the only fast guy on the roster) and needs to be on the floor and will see some of that at 2 but also seeing some time backing up the 2 we now have starting at PG. Our wing situation seems muddled as it is without bringing in anyone else, unless you're going to bring in (via trade, I suppose) the true PG we really need, although that would seem stupid considering we just gave our true 2 who plays PG a big@ss contract. Meanwhile Dahntay has opted in and is the only back up we really have for Granger...though he also sees spot duty at the 2 (except no PT at all in the playoffs).

I hope everyone appreciates me clarifying the direction of the team.

George Hill is actually a better fit for this team as a PG. We are working on establishing length defensively. Hill is an excellent defender against PGs that aren't SUPER quick. And Collison is a perfect backup PG. I disagree with your assertions as to wanting to make this team smaller, not bigger. I think PG at the 2 is so much more effective of a player than at the 3. I think that we will be very happy with GH after an off-season with this team and being the full time starter early in a season.

Pacergeek
07-05-2012, 08:32 PM
So, is the plan going forward that George Hill is our PG of the future? I only ask because he's not really a great PG and his true position is 2. But, if he were our 2, then Paul George is what? Back up 2? Of course, Paul's true position is 3 but we have Granger there. I guess Paul could be the back up 3, but most people here at PD think Paul is the second coming of Christ so I can't imagine him backing up either Hill or Granger. And if we bring in Mayo or someone like Courtney Lee, are they just coming in to logjam at 2 so people have something to laugh about? Because remember we *also* have our former starting PG Collison who is valuable (as the only fast guy on the roster) and needs to be on the floor and will see some of that at 2 but also seeing some time backing up the 2 we now have starting at PG. Our wing situation seems muddled as it is without bringing in anyone else, unless you're going to bring in (via trade, I suppose) the true PG we really need, although that would seem stupid considering we just gave our true 2 who plays PG a big@ss contract. Meanwhile Dahntay has opted in and is the only back up we really have for Granger...though he also sees spot duty at the 2 (except no PT at all in the playoffs).

I hope everyone appreciates me clarifying the direction of the team.

The plan going forward is to have 2 really good Pg's. Not "star pg's", but two solid B level NBA PG's. Hill and DC aren't the best distributors, but our offense isn't designed for a ball-dominant distributor

Banta
07-05-2012, 09:00 PM
George Hill is actually a better fit for this team as a PG. We are working on establishing length defensively. Hill is an excellent defender against PGs that aren't SUPER quick. And Collison is a perfect backup PG. I disagree with your assertions as to wanting to make this team smaller, not bigger. I think PG at the 2 is so much more effective of a player than at the 3. I think that we will be very happy with GH after an off-season with this team and being the full time starter early in a season.

I didn't assert that I want the tea to be smaller. You may have inferred that, but that inference is misguided. I prefer length, but I have a greater preference for players at their natural positions. Regarding Hill against really quick guards, see Rose and Wade. Not trying to be persnickety there, just food for thought.

LG33
07-05-2012, 09:06 PM
I think they should start to hand out free brown bags...

As a small market, we can't afford to give them bags away for nothing.

Pacers
07-05-2012, 09:26 PM
As a small market, we can't afford to give them bags away for nothing.

Cheaper than gold shirts.

But wouldn't it be a gigantic waste to resign our own players this season with money we could have signed other players with, and then signed our guys with the over-the-soft-cap-dollars?